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OT: How do you define Western civilization?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: [qb] The topic is interesting but can be confusing. Here are some questions: Is Western civilization to be seen as synonymous with European civilization? [/qb] [/QUOTE]Yes, as it is specifically defined as Western European civilization. [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: [qb] When non-Western nations say that modernization is not the same as Westernization what do they mean? [/qb] [/QUOTE]Modernization means adopting modern practices within the daily lives of the people. Westernization means adopting the cultural practices of the "West", ie. hip hop, fast food, skimpy clothes, club culture, materialist lifestyle, Wal Mart and so on. [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Western intellectuals claim that what sets Western civilization apart from others is that there has always been a struggle in the West over issues of intellectual and political freedoms and rights--things that other cultures consider anathema. They support this with the claim that the rest of world sees the West as the headquarters of political and econmic freedom--a place to which all and sundry want to migrate to or flee to. How justified are they in making thse claims? [/qb] [/QUOTE]Which is obviously propaganda. The struggle over freedoms and rights is not new by any long shot or unique to "Western" civilization. Freedom versus non Freedom are theoretical philosophical arguments that rarely, if ever, get manifested in real life. Every civilization has a notion of 'freedom' which is relative to the principles and ideals of the culture it exists in. For example, in "Western" societies, freedom has ALWAYS been reserved PRIMARILY for white European male landowners and wealthy patrons over white European females and everyone else. The 'freedom' aspired to by these countries is for Western Europe and those descended from Western Europeans to be free to benefit off the land, wealth and labor of EVERYONE ELSE. It is a selfish freedom,not freedom in an absolute sense, meaning freedom and equality for ALL people, nationalities and ethnicities. What separates the West from other cultures is the fact that they SAY one thing while MEAINING and DOING something totally different. They TALK about freedom, but regularly TAKE freedoms from everyone else. Therefore, the STRUGGLE is to ACTUALLY gain economic, political and social power for all the people who have been subjugated BY the West, which does not make the West the epitome of freedom or justice. It makes the West the epitome of freedoms and justice lost in the name of progress for Western Europeans, which has created a modern struggle for people OUTSIDE the inner circle of Western European elites to GAIN true freedom and justice for themselves. Just remember, Western Europe has only really become democratic in the last 150 years or so. Before that, it was mostly a set of monarchies. And of course, the U.S. only REALLY became democratic in the last 50 years or so, but still has a ways to go. Therefore, the West is not and has never been the epitome of freedom and justice for ALL people. [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Some Westerners claim that the key characteristics of Western civilization are "rule of law, market economies, respect for individual rights, upholding of intellectual freedoms and respect for property rights. They claim that non-Western societies never have meet those 4 conditions. And these are the conditions that places like Turkey should meet if they it is to be admitted to the EU. How justified is this claim? [/qb] [/QUOTE]All civilizations have laws. Laws are the basis of what MAKES a civilization and laws have been around since the beginning of civilization. This idea of Western civilization being based on laws is another form of propaganda to force everyone ELSE to abide by the laws of the West when it comes to economics, political and military power. It has nothing to with Western European civilizations being the first to use laws in society, but Western European s having the power to FORCE everyone else to abide by the RULES of Western Europe. Market economies is just another way of saying greedy materialist capitalist objectives for dominating the economies of the world. It does not mean that the Western European countries invented concepts of trading, commerce, industry and money before everyone else. What it does mean is that they FORCED everyone else to accept rules to benefit Western Europe in trade, commerce, industry and money over everyone else. [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Western intellectuals love to claim that it is only in the West that free intellectual inquiry is valued and that it is only in the West that questions and conversations about the human condition are tolerated. True or false? [/qb] [/QUOTE]False. As any of the thousands of dissidents and people killed in European torture chambers and dungeons over the last 800 years will tell you. The only intellectual activity that was traditionally free was that which supported the goals of the elites in Western Europe. [QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Implicit in all these assumptions is the key underlying assumption that Western civilization is the most advanced and successful civilization--with its intellectual freedoms and rights of the individual--to date with inspiration taken from Euro-Christianity and Greek and Roman ideas. True or False? [/qb][/QUOTE]All of which is a bunch of nonsense. The Romans and their blood thirsty battles for power had nothing to do with intellect, civility, peace or freedom. Greece was a slave state based around an elite who were also blood thirsty for power. Everything mentioned here is a bunch of propaganda, as NO civilization has EVER been perfect, respected the rights of ALL people or not been subject to the manipulations of ambitious people with a desire for power. The only difference here is that the West is the wolf in sheeps clothing, who tries to lull you to sleep for the kill. For example, during slavery, senators and politicians felt that their DEBATES over the virtues and sins of slavery were an EXAMPLE of what made the West different and better than everyone else in following rule of law and the practice of intellectual freedom. How is that? This line of argument only justifies the acts of the West within a framework of law which SUPPORTS Western imperialist and capitalist goals, without ANY true freedom or rights for those being oppressed. Arguing over slavery does NOT constitute freedom, intellectual or otherwise, it constitutes TALK and HYPOCRISY, pure and simple. The con game being that slaves and former slaves are supposed to feel better because these white politicians got together and TALKED about freedom..... So slavery wasnt slavery, it was a struggle of intellectual ideals concerning freedom and justice, which is a high pillar of Western culture. Reword it and you get slavery was a high pillar of Western culture, where the struggle of ideals concernig freedom and justice could not overcome the baser desires for power and wealth among wealthy white male elites..... [/QB][/QUOTE]
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