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Haratin and Morocco's "Gnawa" slave army
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Well, I said it and I stand by it. You guys, other than saying I have a victim mentality have offered NOTHING and I mean NOTHING in the way of counter evidence. I am not going to discuss this further here or open a new thread, however, it is mad hilarious that when someone claims "ethnic cleansing" they are labelled as having a victim's mentality. There are examples of ethnic cleansing that have taken place, are taking place and will continue to take place all over the planet. It does not make one a whipping boy to claim it. You cannot study history and not deal with the fact that humans are their own worst enemies and can and will justify all sorts of horrendous acts on one another based on anything that they can use to justify such acts. The contradictions in tone here are blatantly obvious as on one hand some admit that slavery and exploitation existed, but then turn right around and say "but"... But what? There is no but. I just hate these labels that are flimsy excuses at a rebuttal. If you can throw around labels then you can throw around evidence. This would have been over a while ago if some hadn't chose to start calling people names for the sake of wanting attention. Stick to the facts and evidence and avoid the name calling is my concern. Bottom line, the only thing I take from this thread is that there is STILL a lot about the history of North Africa that is lost, missing or under researched because we wouldnt have to be arguing these silly points if it wasnt. That is what I thought this thread was about, understanding the nuances of ethnicity and identity in North Africa, but not DENYING the obvious. The only thing that comes to my mind is that we need to reach out to the scholars in North Africa who have written about their OWN history and KNOW their own history, including the black Africans who have books and libraries buried in the sands all over the Maghreb and West Africa. Why are these books HIDDEN? What do they say? In addition, look at the other books in the Universities of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, even Egypt. Then you have the testimony of the people themselves to go along with this literary research. All of that, plus archeaological and anthropological studies will give us much more than what we have now, which is PURELY superficial. I use the English books because that is the language I understand. It is not always the most accurate, but it helps identify areas for further study. I dont get ANY impression that anyone has any more of an interest in this kind of study, which would take a lot of years, a lot of money and a lot of time to thoroughly research to do properly, other than mere lip service. I may be wrong but hey none of us are professional historians, anthropologists or archeaologists anyway. As for the whole idea of black versus white in the Islamic world, why dont you talk to Al Jahiz about that before claiming I am fabricating stuff out of thin air. Not only that, but you only have to to to Mauretania to see this kind of system in place, with the pecking order of White Moor, Black Moor, Haratin and "other" black Africans. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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