Soheir A. Morsy

[I]n the Un you have the Afro-Asian-Arab bloc. Now a lot of Arabs might like for you to think they are white,but whenever you see them invovled in the international picture, they are lined up with the dark world ......Afro-Asian-Arab.

They can come around here and pose as white. But when they get back home ,they're not white..... We call ourselves Muslim----We don't call ourselves Black Muslims.

This is what the newspapers call us........We are Muslims. Black,brown,red,and yellow.

-----------------Malcom X The current U.S.-centered discussion surrounding the role of Egypt in the development of ''Western'' civlization[Adler et al. 1991;Begley et al. 1992;Bernal 1987;Yurgo 1991] suggests that although history may well belong to the victorious[Chomsky 1980], it is never too late for those who have been dispossed to reclaim their heritage.

In the U.S.context of color consciouness it is not suprising that the attempt at ancestral reappropriation on the part of African Americans has been linked to the question of Egyptian racial identity. While popualarized scholarship ''[put] ancient Nubia back on the map''[Begley et a;. 1992] and its imagery on T-shirts,Moustafa Hefny,a naturalized U.S. citizen from Egypt,remained bound by establishing racially defined differences.

Hefny,a Detriot school teacher, is contesting U.S. Department of Immigration Directive Number 15, the basis of his classification as ''White.'' According to this directive[also known as ''Race and Ethnic Standards For Federal Statistics and Administrative Reporting''], people of European ,northern African,and Middle Eastern origin are collectively designated ''White.''

In rejecting this ascribed racial designation in favor of an African cultural identity,Hefny explains , in the November 1990 issue of Jet, under the headline ''Black ''White'' Man Challenges Federal Race Identity Law,''

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''My complexion is as dark as most Black Americans. My features are clearly African........Classification as it is done by the United States government provides Whites with legal ground to claim Egypt as a white civlization.....We are fools if we allow them to take this legacy from us.'' Aside from exhibiting a form of political conscioness and sense of African identity familar to those of us who grew up in Nasserist Egypt, the case of Moustafa Hefnyexemplifes Peter Worseley's conception of racial and ethnic categories as part of ''social praxis.''[1]

As social identities these forms of differentiation are relative and situational, not absolute. They take on differen meanings in different contexts,depending on who uses them and for what purpose [Worsley 1984:242-243]. Thus Hefny's ''racial'' identity ,irrelevant to him and others in their dealings with the Egyptian bureaucracy, now gains prominence in the social context of his new homeland and in the very process of his naturalization.

Similarly, Arah identity, which prompts hate crimes against U.S. citizens of Arab descent , was readily affixed to the Egyptian regime by the Bush administration in its attempt to camoflague the imperilist chracter of the 1991 war against the Arab people of Iraq. Focusing on the recent history of Egypt from the colonial period to the Sadat years and drawing on experiental knowleadge derived from Egypt and the United States, I address in this essay current anthropological concerns with the historical contingency and social construction of societal identity [Segal 1991;Williams 1989]

Specifically, I examine U.S racial categorization and foreign policy as these may now prompt Egyptians to stress their national or religious affiliation over identification as African and Arab. From British Colonial Rule to Open-Door Egypt In the nineteenth century Egyptian national identity gained significance in opposition to European political economic hegemony and its associated Eurocentrist cultural orientation[Amin 1989; see also Abdel Malek 1963; Said 1978].

With the 1841 military defeat of Mohammed Ali at the hands of European powers, Egypt;s own state-directed industrialization project was shattered. By the 1879 Egypt had become a debtor nation under the rule of Khedive Ismali, and hostage to the British and French to regulate the Egyptian treasury.

Objection to foreign control by Ismali led to his dethroning and replacement by his son. This proceeded with the aid of Ottoman sultan, who aspired to restablish sovereignty over Egypt.

In periods of foreign control, as during the era of Ottoman rule, the historianj al-jabarti records that Egyptians distinguished themselves from other ethnic groups by the term awlad al-balad[people of the country or ahl al-balad[literally, kin of the country].

As is the case at present, these terms excluded Europeans,collectively known as Ifrang.[2]As designators of collective Egyptian identity these terms masked class differences,reffering to the masses and to the rich Egyptian merchants and the learned,propertied religious leadership[El-Hamamsy 1985:41].Merchants and religious leadershad once played a significant role in cross-class communication in resistance to foreign political,economic, and cultural intrusion[Gran 1979]. Among themselves, Egyptians distinguished Coptic Christians,Jews,and Muslims.

Contrary to orientalist scholary wisdom,religion did not constitue an immutable essence of identity. Then,as now, people assumed or were imputed with multipleidentities in the context of sicl intercourse[El-Messiri 1978].

As a subjugated people under the Turks and Circassians,Muslim Egyptians distinguished themselves from these correligionists; like the Europeans, these foreign Muslims were not considered awlad balad.

Also excluded from the ''people of the country'' category were Westernized Arabic-speaking groups with commercial,professional,or bureaucratic ties to non-Egyptian hegemonic social groups. In 1882 protest against foreign domination erupted into open revolt invovling large segments of the Egyptian population,including the peasantry[Brown 1990].

This revolt, led by an Egyptian army officer and his comrades, is considered ''the First Egyptian National Movement.'' While the Egyptian identity of these officers is beyond dispute, some Arab nationalists from Egypt cherish the additional significance of this revolt as the expression of resurgent Arab national consciouness. As the late Fathi Radwan pointed out to me,''Urbi,'' the appellation by which the 1882 revolt is known, was not the original name of its leader. The adoption of this named[which derives from the Arabic root 'Arabi,meaning Arabic] was used later to denote the Arab nationalist conscioness of the revolt's leadership[personal communication,1986].3 While manifestations of Arab national conscioness are not documented for the Egyptian masses of the ninteenth century, Miuhammed Ali's military expeditions into Syria and Palestine seem to have left his son Ibrahim, the commander of these military campaigns, with a highly developed sense of Arab identity: Ibrahim spoke of himself as Arab and liked to be regarded as one.... He spoke openly of his aims and exerted himself to spread his ideas among the humble as well as the inflential in Syria...Ibrahim made no secret intention to revive Arab national conscioness and restore Arab nationhood, to instill into the Arabs a real sense of patriotism , and to associate them in the fullest measure in the government of the future empire;that he regarded his father's ideas as narrow and merely imperilistic, and more suited to the state of enslavement into which the Arab world had sunk that to the politically idenpendent status to which the Arab world had sunk than to the politically independent status to which he proposed , on Muhammed Ali's death , to leade the Arab[s].[Antonius 1947:29] Contrary to Ismali's dream, it was not Egypt that assumed the leaderships of the Arab nationalist movement in opposition to Turkish hegemony, which culminated the Great Arab Revolt of 1916. The struggle for Arab unity then and during the two decades that followed was led by the Arabs of the Greater Syria. Although Cairo had provided refuge to many Syrian intellectuals and experianced the reinassance of Arabic literature of the preceding century, the country's early independence from Ottoman rule left its people's sense of Arab identity underdeveloped relative to other parts of the Arab region under Ottoman control.

Inconfronting British domination Egyptian national identity was more relevant. The nationalists' demands for reunification were restricted to Egypt and Sudan. It was not untill the 1920's that Egyptian solidarity with surrounding Arab populations began to escalate and Cairo eventually came to assume a central role in the Arab region's intellectual life and its popular culture.

With the formation of the Arab League in 1945,Egypt, the most populous of the Arab states,assumed leadership, a position that took on greater meaning with the coming to power of Nasser [Mussallam 1983:7-10]. The Arabic language itself gained significance in Egypt as a symbol of indigenous cultural identity much earlier. Following the crushing of the 1882'Urabi Revolt by the British, the appointment of Lord Cromer as consul general in 1883 initiated a policy of anglicization in education [Tignor 1966].

Attendance at private French or English schools provided the children of privileged indigenous social groups with a European-style education. Untill the nationalization of education institutions after the 1952 Free Officers' coup, those of us who attended foreign-language schools remained distanced from our multilayered cultural heritage.

Afaf Mahfouz, an Egyptian friend,recalled in a conversation in 1991 how the nun at her French school in Upper Egypt chastised her for using a green coloring pencil.

To the frightended little girl's suprise this color was banned becayuse the teacher saw it as a symbol of Islam.

In the British school that I attended in Alexandria the Italian schoolmaster who taught us art had no problem with this color.Whether this was a result of his tolerance of alien religions or because he was not well versed in symbolic analysis I donot know.

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The curriculum of that British school,however, was an alienating as that of other European-language schools. We were encouraged to excel in Feench,Latin,and of course English,while Arabic instruction remained rudimentary. Students who sat for their Oxford and Cambridge School certificate Examination possessed Arabic reading and writing skills that hardly surpassed those of third-year primary school pupil in the public schools. In these schools, the efforts of colonial-era nationalist activities to reverse the colonial anglicization program had borne fruit.

The emphasis on Egyptian national identity by Copts and Muslims during the 1919 Revolution[El Rafi 1968] had forced the British to concede to some nationalist demands for educational reform. Private European language schools remained insulated from these reforms. In the British school I attended ,speaking Arabic on the school grounds could result in ''punishment.''

This often meant having to write the sentence ''I must not speak Arabic in school'' as many as several hundread times. Incontrast to the restriction imposed on the use of our native tongue,English was offered in abundance in its literary and scientific variants.

I recall waking up early in in the morning to memorize Shakesperean character or another. As I reviewed the passages on the way to school, in preparation for their recital in class later in the day, I would hear the driver cursing the native pedestrians and their religion[also mind] in Italian. In class we learned much about ancient Greece and Rome; we read British and other European histories,including passages about problematic ''barbaric'' Moors, with whom our identification was anything but forthcoming.

In science many of us were particularly impressed by Avicenna, whom I assumed to be a European, like all of the other scientists that we read about.

In geography class we learned about a lake in Africa named after a British queen and marveled at how a Britisher ''discovered'' the sources of the Nile in Africa. This ''dark continent'' was familar to us through Tarzan movies. Needless to say, I did not identify with the natives in these films. In short,nationalism,whether Egyptian or otherwise, had no place in London-made curiculum of our school.

Unlike our compatriots in what were known as the Arabic schools, who demonstrated against both the British and those identified as their local allies, for us the development of our nationalist political conscioness was clearly an extracurricular activity in which friends and members of our extended family ,including brothers and male cousins[who were less likely to be sent to European-language schools]played important parts. page 179

As Egyptians struggled against foreign domination, the country's resdent foreigners[who often distinguished themselves as such even when they came from families that had resided in Egypt for more thyan one generation] continued to exhibit a sense of superiority over indigenous social groups. As Egyptian anjthropologist Laila El-Hamamsy observes for the Turks: They boasted of their Turkish blood and retained a sense of social superiority7 over the Egyptian, or the ''fellah'' as they often called him.

Standards of personal beauty emphasizing Turkish standards, such as lighter shades of skin,eyes,and hair......[continued to be] prevalent. Egyptian reaction against this residue of Turkish superiority could be seen in the lampooning that the Turks suffered in populat jokes and plays, and in the tribute that novels and folk songs repeatedly paid to the dark beauty of the Egyptian.[1985:52] In spite of such forms of popular cultural resistance, many Egyptians themselves came to aspire and acquiesce to the culture of the hegemonic groups, sometimes reffering to indigenous products and customs by contempotuous terms such as baladi, which literally means ''my country.''

In my mother's generation , the desirable attributes for a bride among the upper classes were a fari complexion and the ability speak French and to play the piano. As for Egyptians who did not approximate the standards established by the hegemonic culture, their sense of alienation remains a topic of conversation to this day.

Older compatriots speak of their feeling that Egypt ''was not our country.'' Material wealth did not serve to overcome this feeling. Without appropriate European dress and linguistic skills , even rich Egyptians suffered disdain from the French-speaking clerks ar movie theaters and department stores bearing European names such as Rivoli,Royal,Hannaux, Salon Vert,L'Enfant Chic, and Petite Reine.[ I accompanied my mother to these locations, and I recall the discriminatory treatment which Arabic-speaking patrons of these establishments were subjected to at the hands of the French-speaking attendants,whether Egyptians,Italian,Greek,or otherwise.]

This situation changed drasitcally after the 1952 Nasserite Free Officers' coup[populary known as '' the July Revolution''], when the anticolonial nationalist cry ''Egypt for the Egyptians'' came to be replaced by the idea of ''Egypt for all Egyptians''[El-Hamamsy 1985:53,emphasis added]. As Egyptian nationalism was replaced during the 1950s and 1960s by the state ideaology of Pan-Arabism and the companion banner to Arab socialism, we witnessed the nationalization of the grands magazins along with numerous other commercial and financial enterprises ,schools, and hospitals.

All these establishments acquired new titles, which contained such terms as the Arabic words for ''victory,'',''people,'' ''unity,'' ''public sector,'' and most significally the designation ''Arab.''

Indeed it was the Arab identity that came to center stage in Nasserite Egypt,subordinanting Egyptian nationalist loyalities to aspiration of an encompassing Arab nation,unfettered by the nation-state boundaries established by colonial authorities[S. Amin 1978]. Among many changes brought about by the July 1952 army coup, the nationalization of European-language schools had a most profound effect on those of us who had been deprived of our cultural heritage in the name of quality education.

As the administration and curricula of our school came under scrutiny by the Ministry of Education, those of us with ''Egyptian'' features became particulary valuable to the European staff of our school. We were deliberately assigned positions of heightened visibility in school activities to which officals were invited. For the first time school became a place where we read Egyptian history,including accounts of our compatriots' struggle for independence from Ottoman rule and European colonialism.

Simultaneously the notion of ''the unity of the Nile Valley'' was expanded o accommodate Pan-Africanism.

Egypt's partnership in the non-Aligened Movement also nourished African-Asian solidarity ; the Afro-Asian Solidarity Committee provided a framework for people-to-people international collaboration. From the early days of July Revolution Nasser himself played an important role in highlighting the connectedness of Egyptians,through time and space, to Arab,African,and Muslim communities and causes. In his outline of ''The Philosophy of the Revolution'' he went well beyond ''Egypt's history under the Pharaohs .............the interaction between the Greek culture and ours.....[t]he Roman invasions and the Islamic conquest......................[and] the waves of Arab migration''[1960:39]. Turning the contemporary linkages, he described these associations as ''a group of circles.'' Beginning with the first and ''most important of these circles'' he wrote:

[The] Arab Circle surrounding us is as much part of us as we are part of it...........our history has been merged withb it and.......its interests are linked with ours.......[T]he ........ties that bind our peoples together......make our homeland an itegral indivisible whole, which should be defended as such and not as an isolated unit.[52,68] Reffering to the second circle, which involves Africa,Nasser states:
[W]e cannot under any condition...stand aloof from the terrible and terrifying battle now raging in the heart of that continent between five million whites and two million Africans...We cannot stand aloof for one important reason---we ourselves are in Africa..... I shall continue to dream ot the day on which I shall see in Cairo a great African Institue seeking to reveal to us the various aspects of the Continent,to create in our minds an enlightened African consciouness, and to associate itself with all those working in all parts of the world for the progress,properity and welfare of the peoples of Africa.[69,70] Finally, for the third circle, that which ecompasses Muslims worldwide, the Egyptian leader reflected, As I contemplate the eighty million Moselms in Indonesia, the fifty millions in China,the few millions in Malaya,Thailand and Burma, the hundread millions in Pakistan,the well nigh over hundread million in the Middle East, the forty million in the Soviet Union, and the millions of others in the other remote far-flung corners of the earth............I come out increasingly conscious of the potential achievements cooperation among these millions can accomplish-----------cooperation naturally not going beyond their loyalty to their original countries.[72] While it is not possible to accurately determine the extent to which state ideaology pertaining to societal identity came to be integrated into popular political culture[Salame 1990:46], there is no doubt that Cairo's role as center for an untold number of encounters between peoples of the three circles had significant consequences. Egyptians' visibility in international political activities increased dramatically, as did student politics abroad. Informed by the state's expanded definition of societal identity, Egyptians sent on education missions to the United States contributed to the workld of the Organization of Arab Students, the Muslim Student Association, and campus chapters of the Organization of African Students, often assuming the leadership of the first.

In solidarity with the sturggles of African peoples, their support extended beyond their home continent to the diaspora.

In 1962 Egyptian students, along with other Africans,Arabs,and Muslims,met with Malcom X at Harvard University.

The group's discussion exctended to the racial dimension of social identity,demonstrating the evolution of Malcolm's thinking on the issue[Ashraf El-Bayoumi,personal communication,1962]. As is evident from Malcolm's accounts of his trip to Africa and the Arab world, where he met with Nasser and made a pilgrimage to Mecca,he came to realize that the racial classificatory scheme with which he grew up in the United States was far from universally relevent. Describing his pilgrimage experiance where he met people ''of all colors,'' Malcolm writes, Being from America made me intensely sensitive to matters of color. I saw that people who looked alike drew together and most of the time stayed together.

This was entirely voluntary; there being no other reason for it. But Africans were with Africans,Pakistanis were with Pakistanis and so on. I tucked it into my mind that when I returned home I would tell Americans this observation; that where true brotherhood existed among all colors,where no one felt segregated ,where there was no''superiority'' complex, no ''inferiority'' complex-------then voluntarily,naturally,people of the same kind felt drawn together by that which they had in common[Malcolm X and Haley 1965:344].4 The common bond that Malcolm spoke of in reference to African peoples translated politically into Egyptian support for the civil rights struggle in the ''pure white democracy'' of the U.S.; using this phrase as his title,Richard Nolte documents Egyptian reactions to the 1956 attempt by the Black Student Autherine Lucy to enroll at the University of Alabama, which included the offer of ''a full all-expense Government scholarship for study in Egypt''[1956:8]

Among the many reactions gathered by Nolte from the Egyptian press and individual Egyptians, the following are noteworthy: ''The girl lives,eats,and sleeps guarded by armed police,night and day, while the Negro population meets together on how to oblige the Pure Whites-----who believe in Peace and Democracy and Equality and Freedom and Humanity and Justice------how to compel them to honor the ruling of their Supreme Court with a few months ago at last allowed colored Americans to attend the universities of the white Americans.'' ''If I were an American Negro , I would claim a decent compensation for all Negroes; and it would not be less than one hundread million dollars. And I would prosecute this matter in every international conference and by every possible means.'' ''Ohhh! If I were in her place, I would offer my blood as ransom for the cause.'' 'Greetings to the Free Negroes from Free Egypt, and from all free men!''[1,2] Of his responce to this vilification of U.S. society,Nolte writes: I said I thought it was deplorable, most unfortunate,wrong........[but] pointed out that in the U.S., for Negroes as for everyone else, there were means of redress......Afterall, she had been able to hire a lawyer and bring suit against the University Trustees. My unspoken questions was, what redress did the several Egyptians ''detained'' by government order in their own country have?

But skepticism,not sympathy,was in every face. For them the issue was clear:the girl had been forced out of school because of the color of her skin. Egyptian society has its full share of discriminatory prejustices [and] inequalities. But racial prejustice is not a factor. There is no observable color bar ........[S]slavery as an institution in Mameluke and Ottoman Egypt was by no means limited to Negroes but included Whites in even greater numbers.......Skin color in Egypt is no clue to a previous coindition of servitude,or lack of it.[6-7] Ironically, Egyptian students who studied in racially segregated regions of the United States during the 1950s and early 1960s were generally assigned to ''white'' schools.

We were welcomed as ''foreign students'';rarely were we subjected to harassment except in the cases of ''mistaken identity.''

At Florida State University,where I had my undergraduate training, Egyptian students ''integration'' into activities on this white campus stood in contrast to our ''segregation'' from the activities of other African and African-American students at nearby Florida A&M, a ''Negro school.''

So strict was the seperation that a Yankee graduate student in physics was expelled from the university for inviting some Nigerian students from A&M to his off-campus apartment. While affiliation with a ''white'' university endowed Egyptian students with the honrary racial status, it did not always sheild us from the anecdotal to the offensive

Ashraf El-Bayoumi, then an Egyptian student, recalls that, when first confronted by water fountain marked ''colored'' in the land of ''technological miracles,'' he assumed the designation to be a reference to the water itself.

Still under the impression that ''Lincoln freed the slaves,'' he tried to convince a landlady that his Coptic companion who wanted to rent her apartment ''resembles Jesus Christ.'' The women's responce was unequivocal:''Christ or no Christ, I donot believe in integration''[personal communication 1957]. In my case, even after two years of U.S. residence, I was not immmune to race-related suprises.

Following a 1958 prsentation on Egypt that I made with another Egyptian student at a black school,we learned that our photo would be appearing in the ''colored edition'' of the Tallahasse Democrat. Oblivious of racial implications,we blamed ourselves for missing it by having subscribed to the black-and-white versikon of the paper. Aside from the problems with housing for those of us with darker shades, and occasional aggravations such as my own experiance of being told to sit at the back of the bus, which I refused to do,Egyptian students in the segregated south generally ''passed.''

This changed with the intensification of the civil rights struggle in the early 1960s when sit-ins became a popular form of resistance. For the first time some of us were refused service in restaurants, often after long consultations among waitresses who were audibly debating our racial identity. The period between 1967 and 1975 witnessed major changes in Egypt and its surrounding region.

With the 1967 Arab military defeat, Egypt lost its position of leadership in the struggle against Zionism and imperilism. Subjected to a growing oil wealth-fueled Saudi influence, Egyptian society succumbed to the culture of the region's rentiers petro-Islamcists[Beblawi 1990]. Simultaneously, under Sadat the country became fully integrated politically,economically,and militarily within the U.S. orbit.

Egyptian officals signed the U.S.-sponsored Camp David Accord,implemented its companion economic liberalization policies known as the Open Door Economic Policies[ODEP], and placed military bases at the disposal of the U.S. government. As victory was declared by the champions of free enterprise and their belated allies who had flourished in the bosom of Nasserite state capitalism, the 1970s saw major shofts in definitions of societal identity,stressing those that were compatible with the newly forged alliances.

These ioncluded state-sanctioned emphasis on our ''pharaonic'' identity ,efforts to highlight out ''Mediterranean heritage''[as exemplified by Farag Foda's program for his proposed new political party],as well as offical promotion of Islamic rhetoric[exemplified by the descrption of Sadat as ''the pious president,'' and his own repeated references to ''science and faith'']. As the three circles of the antecedent era lost their significance,Egyptians spoke of a sense of identity crisis[daya,or loss],well expressed by the very title of President's Sadat's 1978 autobiography, In Search of Identity.

By the time of the president's assassination in October 1981,Pan-Arabism had been dealt a serious blow,Pan-Africanism was but a historical memory, the country was in the thrall of unprecdented sectarian strife between the Muslim majority and Coptic minority, and the economic turn northwestward came to be expressed in cultural terms,reminiscent of the period of European domination.

In a culturally informed study of the period of European domination.

In a culturally informed study of Egypt's ODEP,economist Galal Amin shows that ''[j]ust as factors of production as well as purchasing power have [been] diverted from the domestic products towards foreign goods,national culture also ..........[gave] was in the interest of the culture from which these goods originate....In a word rder to create reliable customers for western goods, you are well advised to have those customers ''westernized''[1981:433]. Within the framework of the ODEP,even the Pyramids were threatened with Westernization. A North American tourism prospector found ''[no] bigger challenege than to tackle the pyramid. I meant to take a little water and a little **** and make an oasis of green where there's only been sand for 5,000 years,to create a golf course''[Fuad 78:135,emphasis added] The national campaign laucnhed by Dr. Ni'mat Ahmed Fuad shattered this arrogant adventurer's dream,thereby protecting a prominent symbol of Egyptian identity. Efforts to create what Ali Mazrui described as ''culturally relevent markets'' for Western products restored to those who possessed European linguistic skills and looks the esteem they had enjoyed before the July Revolution. Egypt's ''openness'' was accompanied by a marked proliferation of English-language training programs, which were eagerly pursued by groups ranging from bank tellers to high-ranking army officers. Of the many advertisments that appeared in the national press two will suffice to illustrate the role of multinational firms in the promotion of neocolonial anglicization. From the Feburary 17,1985,issue of Al-Ahram:''An American First in Cairo seeks ambitious young men and women for its challenging job. Candidates must have:high education,fluent English,excellent apperance,mangerial personality,age between 20-28.English school graduates and car owners will have priority.'' And from a typical 1975 issue of Al-Akhbar:''Foreign Trade Office immediatedly requires young charming female ecretary....English typing with fluent English language.......recent graduate or one/two years experiance.'' The mass information media,particulary in electronic forms also promote ''excellent apperance,'' a standard of physical attributes that defines fair skin,light eyes,and blond hair as admirable. TV commercials, many of which are prepared in the West,feature blond women. When local actresses are involved ,many of them either have their hair dyed or wear blond wigs. Indeed, in urban areas,a noticeable correlate of the ODEP is the increased number of women with dyed light hair. The influence of the fashiuonable beautities of locally broadcast North American TVseries such as Dallas,Knots Landing,Flamingo Road,and Falcon Crest even extends to some fashion-consciouns womenh who don the so-called Islamic-style dress but are also eager to wear colored contact lenses. Petro-Islamic modesty also takes the form of ''Islamic'' outfits bearing the label ''imported from London''[Abdel Fadil 1989]. Aside from promoting Euro-American standardsof beauty,Egypt's ''open-door]] world of advertisment partakes of the Madison Avenue definition of diversity. Multiracial Benetton-type ads now appear in Egypt,sensitizing consumers to hitherto irrelevant U.S. racial archetypes. Turning to the politics of the Sadat regime as it pertains to societal identity, it is noteworthy that while the offical pro-Westernstance was accompanied by supression of the ''voicabulary of Arabism,'' there were contravening forces that could not be easily vanquished. Prominent among these was the persistent support by members of the Egyptian opposition of the Palestinian resistance movement[cf. Owen 1983:22]. Arab nationalists reasoned that the inepititude of individual Arab states in support of the Palestnians could be overcome by Arab citizens ''work[ing] at a ....pan-Arab...level and transcend[ing] the local state phenomenon,'' as K. Hassib editorialized in Al-Mustaqbal al 'Arabi in 1985[qtd. in Salame 1990:50]. Acting on this premise,members of the Egyptian opposition committed to preserving the priority of Arab identity were confronted with the power of the regional petroeconomy. This proved to be a monumental force in domesticating Arab nationalism. As Beblawi notes,''Pan-Arabism and Arab money [became], to great extent, and in different hands, the stick and the carrot, used to bring about a very subtle equilibrium in sharing oil rent''[1990:96]. Although Egypt's integration in the regional petro-economy as a labor exporter contributed to the establishment of a vast pan-Arab institutional network [Owen 1983:22], the resulting intra-Arab cooperation in no way approximates earlier conceptions of Arab unity. Neither foes it challange the institutionalized kafil[sponsorship] system of privilage, which mocks the notion of Arab kinship by legitimizing exploitation of noncitizens bu citizens. Indeed, the situation during the 1970s and 1980s differed fundamentally from that of the 1950s and 1960s , when Egyptians working in the petroleum-exporting countries were recruited primarily to contribute to a ''unitarian [pan-Arab] construction''[Amin 1982]. The idealogical framework of this construction was clearly antagonistic to Arab reactionary regimes, and decidedly anti-imperilist. During the 1970s and 1980s the integration of Egypt within a Gulf-led pan-Arab formation coincided also with the accentuation of Muslim identity. In contrast to Arab nationalists who seek the elimination of existing state structures and their integration into an ecompassing Arab state,proponents of the Islamic umma[community] advocate the adoption of Islamic law [shari'a] by the individual states and promote solidarity among the existing independent Islamic nations[Salame 1990:50]. Not only does oil wealth-fiananced Islamism polarize Muslim and Coptic compatriots, it also incorporates the former into a new ''circle'' that is in many ways conterminous with the interests of multinational corporations and finacial institutions, as evident from the 1991 Bank of Credit and Commerce International[BCCI] saga, to give but one example. While some Islamist groups are decidely anti-Western, it is important to guard against ne0-orientalist scholarly alarm over ''Islamic fundamentalism.'' This threatens to blind us to the harmonious relations that obtain between petro-Islamists, their Egyptian supporters, and international capital. In the Egyptian context,political-economic cum cultural expression of this partnership takes various forms. These include the state's own unceasing pursuit of Gulf and Western private capital investments[to the detriment of the productive public sector],individual contributions to deposits in the Bahama-based ''Bank of Piety,'' and the recital of the Quran in English by children attending the Al-Rayan ''Islamic'' kindergarten in Cairo. The compromised significance of the Nasser-era Arab circle in light of the post-1967 Americanization/Saudization of Egypt has a conterpart in relation to the African circle. Egypt's latter-day support of reactionary African regimes,whether that of Mubutu in Zaire or Hassan in Morocco,stands in contrast to earlier forms of solidarity. On a personal level,President Sadat's acknoledgment of his own African identity was antyhing but forthcoming. Infact, in one of his earlier interviews with Barbara Walters, his complaint about the Soviets ended with an objection to their treatment of Egypt as a ''central African country.'' Where the Sudanese parentage of Egypt's first president,Muhammed Naguib, had been highlighted as a symbol of ''the unity of the Nile Valley,'' and where Nasser was proudly described as the 'dark giant,'' Sadat himwself was highly uncomfortable with his dark pigmentation[Heikal 1983:8,13,25] Sensitized to the centrality of racial differences as attributes of social status in the United States,pro-Sadat Egyptians took offense when the African-American actor Lou Gossett portrayed the president in a 1984 TV film. Some of the Egyptians who saw this English-language film believed that the choice of a member of a subjugated group to portray Egypt's president was part of a Hollywood plot to undermine the signficance of Sadat's peace mission.[5] By that time the struggle of African Americans no longer enjoyed formal support. As allies of the U.S.government,Egyptian officals had no doubt noted that African Americans are generally marginal in the halls of power where Sadat had met with people like ''my friend Henery,'' as he used to refer to Secretary of State Kissinger. Neither the behavior not the physical attributes of African Americans appearing in the many shows imported from the United States [including Roots, which highlighted the slave heritage of African Americans] approximated the idealized image of North Americans as rich,powerful,and of course blond..[6]

Egyptians and the Politics of Identity in the United States As vistors ,permanent residents,and increasingly as citizens, Egyptians in the United States,as elsewhere, have multiple identities. Wheather self-assiagned or ascribed, these are informed not only by the societal divisions of the new homeland and the categories of social differentiation operative in the country of origin, but also by matters of foreign policy and international relations. Unlike Moustafa Hefny, the Detriot schoolteacher, most Egyptians residing in the United States today are not likely to identify themselves either as African or African-American. In a soceitywhere the melting pot ideaology provides but a transparentveil for an underlying ''chosen people'' of European origins[Gran N.d.:10], new immigrants to succeed in racially stratified U.S. society may well try to distance themselvesfrom socially debased categoiries. With the increasing under development of the once significant internationalist consciouness in their country of origin., most Egyptians in the United States today are not likely to identify with the struggles of other racially or ethnically differentiated groups. For these Egyptians, the honrary ''white'' classification, in conjunction with the identification of ancient Egypt as the origin of Western civlization,facilitates affiliation with the hegemonic social group. Hence the determination on the part of some Egyptians to monopolize the claim to the heritage derived from out ancient ancestors, and to exclude African Americans from such association. Illustrative of this stance is the indignation that marked the reaction of an Egyptian professor to my comments in 1991 following an event celebrating African History Month. I had pointed out that although I am in disagreement with the current attempts to impose on ancient Egyptan irrelevant racial typology derived frokm a historically specific Euro-American experiance, I am nevertheless convinced that the Sahara has not been a barrier to genetic and cultural exchange among the peoples of the African continent. In my responce, my compatriot's protest targeted what she described as the attempt on the part of the African American community to ''steal our heritage'' as a means of overcoming its ''slavery complex.'' Ironically, and in contrast to such reaction, some Egyptians readily check off the ethnic minority category ''African American'' when they or their children apply to programs of academic training. In addition to some Egyptians' opportunistic detachment from African identity,U.S. residents of Egyptian origin are also likely to shun their Arab identity in favor of nation-state,Islamic,or Coptic affililation. While the empphasis on religious identity is an extension of post-1967 developments in Egypt and the surrounding region, the supression of Arab identity is also understanable in light of U.S. foreign policy. Whereas Arabs, ''colored'' and ''foreign'' did experiance their share of U.S. racially motivated hatred in the earlier part of the century, the present antagonism with which we are targeted is primarily informed by the tenor of U.S. foreign policy. As Helen Samhan,deputy director of the Arab American Institue explains, In the present period anti-Arab atitudes and behavior have their roots, not in the traditional motives of structually excluding a group percieved as inferior, but in......political racism[the origins of which] lie in the Arab-Israeli conflict and, as such ,constitue an ideological struggle more than an ethnic one. Arab issues or organizations are not, in most cases,victims of this political racism. Conversely,non-Arab Americans sometimes are.[1987:11].7 The withdrawlk of Egyptians from activities pertaining to Palestinian and Arab issues coincided with the beginning of negotiations that led up to the 1979 U.S.-orchestrated Camp David agreement. Egyptian involvement in the Organization of Arab Students almost came to a halt, and a seperate Egyptian student organization was formed. A similar decline occured in relation to the Pan-Arab professional organization,Arab American University Graduates. Some Egyptians who were once active in this organization became founding members of the Organization of Egyptian-American Scholars. Headed by a personal friendof President Sadat, this group gained significance,particulary for those who stood to benefit from their status as dual Egyptian-American citizens. As Egypt was admitted to the hall of civilized nations under U.S. auspices,we witnessed a drastic modification of the country's U.S. media image. Egyptians are not usually excluded from the pervasive vilificationof Arabs[Morsy 1986]. This insulation generally extends to hate crimes against Arabs, such as those that followed the 1985 TWA hijacking in Lebanon and the 1986 U.S. raid on Libya. In conjunction with the most recent 1991 Gulf War,when Japanese Americans gave council and comfort to the most recent victims of FBI harassment, many Egyptians distanced themselves from their victimized Arab ''kin.'' By identifying with the Egyptian regime, a key Desert Storm coalition partner, Egyptians in the United States were generally spared the violence that befell many other Arabs. According to the 1990 report of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee[ADC], a civil rights organization founded by Senator James Abourezk in 1980, Violence against the Arab-Americans community is at an all-time high. Throughout the crisis of the Gulf ..........and since the United States and Iraq went to war.......the number of attacks against Arab-American individuals and organizations has spiralled........Although acts of racism and discrimination occur on a regular basis, since its founding,ADC has noted a significant increast in hate crimes and violence directed against Arab-Americans whenever the United States or its interests are involved in a Middle Eastern crisis..........Even as this report goes to press, the FBI is questioning over 200 Arab Americans community leadersregarding their political views and their knwoleadge of possible terrorists threats in the U.S......In addition,Palestinian and Lebanese political activists and organizers in the peace movement report that they are under surveillance by the FBI. Such actions are viewed as an attempt to ''chill'' the legitmate political activities of the U.S. citizens and residents. It is a pradox that the overzelous policies designed to prevent terrorists attacks are directed in an indiscriminante manner against a community when it is itself the victim of hate crimes.[ADC 1991:1,3-4] Ironically, after a ''victory'' in the Gulf War,neither the honarary ''white'' label not the shedding of Arab identity can provide protection against economic ression,attendant homelessness,cuts in education and health care, and increasing antagonism towards foreigners among the growing numbers of unemployed ''true'' Americans. As economic racism comes into play, Egyptians,along with other recent immigrants, may well be defined as enemy in the same way that even lighter-skinned Lebanese and Turks, as well as North Africans, have been targeted by antiforeign neo-Nazi groups in Germany,and the right-wing Front Nationale in France.[8]

For Europe,Sivanandan has observed the movement ''from an ethnoicentric racism to an Eurocentric racism, from the different racisms of the different member states to a common market racism''[qtd. in Webber 1991:11]. Similarly, in the absense of concerted effots to combat the divide-and-conquer strategies og U.S. rulers and their multinational allies, we can expect the not-so-new ''New World Order''[Chomsky 1992] to generate a compatible global system of exclusion, as now restored in ''Free Kuwait.'' [R]ather than..mere manifestation of exceptionalism and non-conventionality.....the attempt to elaborate a more relevent ,valid and significant body of social theory is constanly related, at each step and stage, to the real concrete world of our times, ot its historically constitued specifities in their rich diversity and across their powerful contridictions[Abdel Malek 1981:iv] The pyramids were built for the rulers of Egypt,but the Aswan High Dam for the good of the people. Nasser will continue to be a big force in the Arab world. I myself rather like and admire hime.[Malcolm X 1989:103] The 1960s witnessed the proliferation of intellectual decolonization that took such varied forms as Antour Abdel Malek's critique of orientalist scholarship and Frantz Fanon's demysticifcation of colonial medicine. The restructuring of African soceities and rewriting of their histories by Africans on the continent and in the diaspora extended to the fragmented Western representation of Africa wherein ancient Egypt is seperated out and designated the origin of Western civlization[Pieterse 1992]. The struggle for political unity of the continent prompted scholarly investigations of the extent to which Egypt's relation to the rest of Africa obtained historically[Mokthar 1981]. More recently, the connection of Egypt ot Africa has been brought back into prominence by Martin Bernal,albeit with a decidedly Eurocentric emphasis-----African Egypt's impact on ancient Greece, and by extension on Western civlization. Informed by an ''intrigue'' with his own ethnic ''roots''[1987:xvii],Bernal's search led him to ''Black'' Athena. Although accurately reflecting a historical context of discovery fact that in the world of antiquity,including North Africa and Greece,skin color did not play a significant role[Pieterse 1992:23]. While notion of a ''Black'' origin of civlization may well enhance some Africans sense of pride , not to mention the Egyptomania of the U.S. consumer culture, it does not translate into a political project of African independence and internal unity. Still intact are impeding structures of global power relations,expressed, inter alia, in anti-African racism in the United States, and neocolonial policies that thwart the political and economic unification of the African continent. As Talal Asad has observe for Britiain ,''[A]n account of origins tells us nothing about how.....unity is structured''[1990:472], or about the reaction of dominant social groups to derivative expressions of collectivity. Thus in contrast to the British liberal establishment's tolerance of immigrant popular culture as testimony to a ''rich and diverse heritage'' and ''wealth of culture and tradition'' is the perception of threat posed by Muslim immigrants to established authority,notably in iuts determination of primary homogeneities and differences. Similar to Malcom X's Islamic Afrocentric project, Muslim immigrants' politicization of their religious traditions constitutes a chalange to the fundamental notion of the nation-state with its legal prerogatives and totalizing cultural projects[Asad 1990:474; see also Kilani,N.d.] In contrast to political mobilization around culturally meaningful elements of social identity, the mere transformation of racial attributes from stigma to badge of honor amounts to nothing less than perpetuation of ahistoric streotypic representations with attendant simplification and generalization[Pieterse 1992:12]. In contemporary Egypt the highly developed sense of national pride [repetedly expressed in the familar reference to Egypt as mother of the world] has not deterred subjugation at the hands of contemporary architectus of world orders, whether colonial or ''new.'' At present, as in ancient times, social identity remains a historically specific social cfonstruct,inextricable from prevailing power relations. As Pieterse has observed.''[I]n ancient Egypt alone[a period of almost 3,000 years] we witness a virtually complete cycle of images of blacks ranging from normal[in the sense of everyday] and warrior images to enemy images and images of defeat,images of servants and entertainers,and finally , at the other extreme, to images of black or mixed pharaohs''[1992:23]

Many of the very Westners who idolize ancient Egyptians donot extend to their living desendants even common courtesy. Sometimes tourists extend insult,and injury, even to ancient Egyptian monuments[Ives 1990]. In the realm of popualrized scholarship one is sometimesastounded ny the muted voices of living Egyptian who specialize in the study of their ancient homeland. For example the PBS NOVA program ''This Old Pyramid'' leaves one with the impression that Egypt has no Egyptologists,and that only white Western men are ''bent on solving the mysteries of pyramid building'' as a news item in Washingston Home,October 29,1992,suggests. As for the living Egyptian portrayed in the NOVA program , their role is that of beasts of burden subjected to insults from an arrogant North American stonemason,whom we see enjoying the body of a vibrating body of an Egyptian belly dancer as he delivers a token expression of appreciation of Egyptian culture. As for Bernal's scholary construction of ''Black'' Athena's Egyptian heritage,while his very limitied reference to contempoorary Egyptians is made in a much more civil tone than expressed by Nova's stonemason, it remains illustrative of orientalist essentialism. Reducing the dynamic of societal identity to religious affilitation,Bernal asserts that, with the exception of Copts,econtemporary Egyptians lack interest in their ancient heritage. Furthermore,implying uninterrupted ''acceptance of .Western Scholarship,'' Bernal alleges that ''Egyptian scholars have not challanged the orthodoxy on the world role of Ancient Egypt or investigated its influence overseas''[1987:401] In an oral challange to Bernal's assertions,Angela Gilliam reminded the audience of a 1991 American Anthropological Association invited secession devoted to Black Athena of the roles of Egyptian government scholars of an earlier era,UNESCO,and certainly Egyptian and other African scholars in rewriting the history of the African continent;Brackette Willams questioned the relevance of Bernal's findings for contemporary struggles. The challange to the authoritative Western discourse on African articulated at the many politically motivate conferences devote to African history held in Nasserite Egypt, also noted by Gilliam, were not designed to address Professor Bernal's interest in Egypt's contribution to ancient Greece, and by extension Western civilizatioon. Instead,participants traced the linkages whether linguistic,religious,economic,or political within the continent itself,and more generally, the relation of the African ''circle'' to toher indigenously defined significant struggles,including that of African Americans. More recently, a review of Nabil Ragheb's Alexandria's Golden Age: An Egyptian Scientific Perpective published in the Egyptian daily Al-Ahram,August 6,1993,cites the work of Taha Hussein,'' the dean of Arabic literature,'' which describes the Greeks as ''pupils of the Egyptians.'' Presenting elaborations of this theme, the reviewer make the point that ''Taha Hussein was ahead of Martin Bernal by half a century.''

The struggle for African unity invovled much more than scholarly challange to Western representations of Egypt as seperate from Africa. Attempts at intellectual decolonization were themselves inseperable from political and armed struggle against foreign domination thoughout the continent. Although neglected in Hollywood's imagery of Malcolm X as tourist at the foot of the Pyramids, it was Egypt's leadership role in the anti-imperilist struggle, not its ancient temples, that left a lasting impression on this African-American leader. Egypt of the period of decolonization witnessed the emphasis of the Arab,African,and Muslim dimesions of its people's multifaceted societal identity. This contrasted with the de-emphasis of the Mediterranean dimesion, which connects the once subjugated Egyptian population to those who enslaved its members. With identity conceptualized as a historically specific social construct,today's Egyptian society is logically expected to exhibit interest in those facets of identity that are, to one degree or another,compatiable with the country's recent reintegration into the Western political-economic-cultural orbit. A recent conversation with a relative in Alexandria lent credence to this expectation. In bringing our conversation to a close he said that he was on his way to a lecture on ancient Greek culture,adding,''This is a sign of the times.''
Indeed, so it is

Notes:

The Malcom X quote in the epigraph is from Malcolm X 1989;54-55,102-103,

1. During Nasser's rule the Egyptian regime's support of Pan-Africanism extended to the training of African National Congress cadres and affiliates of other African liberation movements. On a personal level, the marriage of an Egyptian woman to the president of Ghana was often noted as symbolic of the unity betwen Egyptians and other Africans

2. As markers of collective identities, the designations noted for Egyptians and Europeans were,and remain,cultural rather than racial. These terms continue to be used to refer to behavior,life-style,and inanimate objects such as clothes and furniture.

3.Radwan was a prominent member of the original Nationalist party and opposed British colonial rule for many years prior to the 1852 July Revolution. Following the overthorw of the monarchy and his release from prison he was appointed minister of culture under Nasser.

4, A challenge to Malcolm's conclusion is found in Bernard Lewis's work [1971,1990]. With typical white-master arrogance,Lewis corrects Malcom'x alleged misconception ,informing his readers that ''the beliefs which Malcolm had aquired and still cherished at [the] time [of his pilgrimage] prevented him from realizing the full implications of what he saw''[1971:4]. Without disclosing his own ''cherished'' beliefs[Nyang and Abed-Rabbo 1984],Lewis goes on to comment on how the African-American leader had reached his allegedly misguided conclusion:''The Middle East is an ancient land of myths in which the mythopedic faculty---the ability to create myths, to believe in them, and to make others believe---has by no means died out. It would be wise to subject any widely held assumption regarding this area to ''critical scrutiny'' invovles the familar reminbded about the Arab slave trade,reducing this economic relation , which includes the subjugation of fair-skinned peoples, to a racial question[Gran N.d:9]. Lewis goes on to assert the ''Alabama-like quality'' of Arab/Muslim societies[1971:5]
5. Anthropologist Steney Shami informed me that the less-than-favorable portrayals of African Americans in the TV programs imported from the United States leave many Jordanians with the impression that ''the scary thing about America is the Blacks''[personal communication 1991].

6. In sharing with my spouse,Ashraf El-Bayoumi, who is Egyptian, his recent experiance as a tourist in Egypt, an African-American professor complained of the less than courteous treatment he was subjected to at the Cairo Nile Hilton. In responce my spouse remarked''They treated you like they treat us[locals.....; Americans are supposed to look different from you

7. Samhan's examples of the infliction of this ''politicakl racism'' on non-Arab Ameriucans extends to academia. Among other illustrations she cites the case of SUNY professor Ernest Dube,a South African antiaprtheid activist accused of anti-Semeticism for having lectured on the issue of Zionism as racism[1987:21]

8. Ironically, in France racism proceeds under the guise of preserving the progressive and rationalistic values of the 1789 Revolution[LIoyd and Waters 1991].

references

Abdel Fadil,Mahamoud 1989 Islamic Dress''Imported from London.''Sut Al-Arab,April 26[in Arabic]

Abdel Malek,Anouar 1963 Orientalism in Crisis.Diogene 44:107-108
______1981 Social Dialectics:Nation and Revolution.Albany:State University of New York Press

ADC[American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee]. 1991,1900 ADC Annual Report on Political and Hate Violence,Washingston D.C.:ADC
Abdel Nasser,Gamal 1960 The Philosophy of the Revolution,N.p.

Adler,J, with H. Manly ,V.E. Smith ,F. Chideya, and L.Wilson.1991] African Dreams. Newsweek ,September 23

Amin,Galal. 1981 Some Economic and Cultural Aspects of Economic Liberalization in Egypt. Social Problems 28:430-441

________1982 External Factors in the Reorientation of Egypt's Economic Policy . In IRch and Poor States in the Middle East,ed. M.H. Kerr and S. Yassin,285-315.Boulder ,Colo,:Westview

Amin,Samir 1978 The Arab Nation. London:Zed.
_____1989 Eurocentrism. New York:Monthly ReviewPress

Antonious,George 1955. The Arab Awakening .Beirut:Khayat

Asad,Talal. 1990 Multiculturalism and British Identity in the Wake of the Rushdie Affair. Politics and Society 18:455-480

Beblawi,Hazem. 1990 The Retier State in the Arab World. In the Arab State, ed. Giancomo Lucianin,85-98 Berkley and Los Angelas: University of California Press.

Begley,Sharon, with F. Chikdeya and V. Minor. 1992 Of Pgymies and Princess:Scholars Put Ancient Nubian Back on the Map Newsweek,October 19.
Brown,Nathan J. 1990.Peasant Politics in Modern Egypt. New Haven,Conn: Yale University Press

Chomsky,Noam 1980 Preface to Palestinians:From Peasants to Revolutionaries, by Rosemary Sayigh. London:Croom

__-___in Collateral Damage:The ''New World Order'' at Home and Abroad ,ed. Cynthia Peters,49-92. Boston :South End

El-Hamammsy,Laila 1985. The Assertion of Egyptian Identity . In Arab Society :Social Science Perpectives,ed. Nicolas Hopkins and Saad Eddin Ibrahim, 39-63.Cairo:American University in Cairo Press

El-Messiri,Sawson 1978 Ibn-al-Balad: A Concept of Egyptian Identity.Leiden:Brill

El-Raf'i,Abdel Rahman 1968. The 1919 Revolution.Cairo ar al-Shaab[in Arabic]

Fuad,Ni'mat A. 1978. The Pyramid Plateau:The Dangers of Attacking Egypt.Cairo:World Book

Gran,Peter. 1979 Islamic Roots of Capitalism.Austin:University of Texas Press

______N.d. Readings from the Text:Political Economy in Anglo-American Middle Eastern Studies.[Manuscript]

Heikal,Mohammed 1983.Autumn of Fury: The Assassination of Sadat. New York:Random House

Ives,Tome 1990.Stepping on Karnak.World Monitor,December

Kamel,Abdel Aziz.19712,Islam and the Problem oif Discrimination. Paris:UNESCO[in Arabic]

Kilani,Modher.N.d. France and the Veil:Universalism,Comparison,hierarchy.Manuscript

Lewis,Bernal 1971. Race and Color in Islam. New York:Harper and Row
________Race and Slavery in the Middle East:An Historical Enquiry. New York:Oxford University Press

LIoyd ,Cathie and Hazel Waters. 1991. France:One Culture,One People? Race and Class 32[3]:49-66

Malcolm X. 1989 Malcom X:The Last Speeches,ed. Bruce Perry. New York:Pathfinder

Malcolm X and Alex Haley . 1965 . The Autobiography of Malcolm X . New York Ballantine

Moktar,G.,ed. 1981. General History of Africa.Vol.2 ,Ancient Civlizations of Africa.Paris:UNESCO

Morsy,Soheir . 1986. The Bad, the Ugly,the Super Rich,and the Exceptional Moderate: U.S. Popular Images of of the Arabs. Journal of Popular Culture

Musallam,Basim. 1983. The Arabs . London: Collins/Harvill

Nolte,Richard H. 1956. Pure White Democracy:Egyptian Reactions to the Affair of Autherine Lucy.American Universities Field Staff Reports,Northeast African Studies 4[1]:1-8

Nyang,Sulayman, and Samir Abed-Rabbo. 1984. Benard Lewis and Islamic Studies: An Assessment. In Orientalism, Islam,and Islamists,ed. Asaf Hussein,Robert Olson,and Jamil Qureshio,259-284.Brattleboro,Vt:Amana

Owen,Roger. 1983 Arab Nationalism,Arab Unity, and Arab Solidarity. In the Middle East,ed. Talal Asad and Roger Owen,16-22 New York:Monthly Review Press

Pieterse,Jan Nederveen. 1992 White oin Black:Imahes of Africa and Blacks in Western Popular Culture. New Haven ,Conn: Yale University

Said ,Edward 1978. Orientalism. New York;Random House

Salame,Chassan 1990 ''Strong'' and ''Weak'' States: A Qualified Racism of the Muqaddimah. In the Arab State,ed. Giancomo Luciani, 29-64.Berkley and Los Angelas University of California Press

Samhan,Helen 1987. Poliotics and Exclusion:The Arab American Experiance Journal of Palestine Studies 16[2]:11-28

Segal,Daniel A. 1991. ''The European'';Allegories of Racial Purity Anthropology Today 7[1]:6-9

Tignor,Robert 1966 Modernization and British Colonial Rule in Egypt,1882-1914.Princeton:Princeton University Press

Webber,Frances 1991. From Ethnocentrism to Euro-Racism. Race and Class 32[3]:11-18

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 28 May 2005).]
 

The experience of Egyptians in the USA seems very similar to that of similarly diverse phenotype ethnic group such as the Puerto Ricans. Have you read the works of Piri Thomas, of Jesus Colon?

The experiences of Moustaf Hefny, Piri Thomas all show how race is a warped and distorted view of reality that has no logical basis and is used solely to create and maintain confusion and divisiveness among people.

In certain region or times in US, Piri and Moustafa would be considered white, or at least "dark skinned" caucausians especially if they had good relations witht the local white populace. However if they would travel to other white areas or if their relations with local whites would sour they considered just another nigger.

Not to mention that African Americans like a W.E.B. Dubois or a J.A. Rogers would be considered black and subject to all the indignities that go with the label, while a PR like Piri or N.Africa like Hefny who are actually darker would at least officially (although not always socially) defined as white.

Its unforunate that many nonEuropeans in the U.S. internalize and perpetuate this same warped mentality.

[This message has been edited by kovert, the one and only (edited 28 May 2005).]
 

The following came from an essay from a book on race. Soheir Morsy is one of the Egyptian contributors to the book.

Here is the name of the book:

Race

Author: Steven Gregory, Roger Sanjek

Paper ISBN 0-8135-2109-2
Cloth ISBN 0-8135-2108-4

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''My complexion is as dark as most Black Americans. My features are clearly African........Classification as it is done by the United States government provides Whites with legal ground to claim Egypt as a white civlization.....We are fools if we allow them to take this legacy from us.''(edited 28 May 2005).]

---

Thank you Moustafa Hefny.

Modern Egyptians are only classified as white because of political purpose and to ease the relationship with the current elite class of whiter modern Egyptians who by the way had nothing to do with Ancient Egypt.

There wasn’t a time in USA where any of them the darker (non elite group) skinned Egyptians would have been seen as dark Caucasian. Are you out of your mind? Back then it was even worse. Even the Italians who are clearly darker than other white people are distinguishable of the lightest Africans. Again that is just as fallacious as the blacks saying Italians are white Africans because they have a darker complexion than that of regular white people. Don’t be confused with the political term. Most of the black Egyptians not from Cairo or of the elite class and have direct heritage to the real Ancient Egypt are proud of being black. It’s just the white Arabian invaders in desperation of having their own culture. And only way to do that is cover-up and steal other people's culture.

"This is regardiing a current important civil rights issues which is well documented and well covered by the media, and which will come before the Congress and the Courts. This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen, Dr. Mostafa Hefny, whose professional career is being destroyed and his rights systematically violated essentially because he is proud of his black heritage and seeking to be classified as the black man that he is.

The U.S. government racial classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. It misclassifies and violates the constitutional rights and the civil rights of many groups. How can Ayatollah Khomini(the Iranians) be white? This issue has received extensive coverage in the local, national, and international media including coverage in the Detroit local affiliates of ABC, NBC, and CBS, The Detroit News, CNN, and the British newspaper The Telegraph. We will like to send you a copy of our 4-page website and a color photo of Dr. Hefny( who is classified as white) and two African American pastors (who are classified as blacks) so you can see how this classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. "
http://www.prweb.com/releases/1999/8/prweb9037.php

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 29 May 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 29 May 2005).]
 

I agree with what you say about Arabs. Most Middle-Eastern or Arab people that we see in the media are Saudis or Iraqis or Iranians. You rarely get to see the dark-skinned kind. I've seen pictures of Rashaida people before and it surprised me. At first I thought they were mixed with African but they never marry outside their group.
 

1.You may know "some" (keyword) PRS but what you don't know is that I live in the heart
of the PR mainland community in one of the most diverse cities of this here world has to
offer, NY BABYY!!

I have lived with PRS, DRs and just about everyone nationality all my life.

2.Again you highlight not only your arrogance but also gross ignorance in insinuating
greater knowledge of a community than me. I have fought with, fought against, loved, hated, dated; been through the whole gamut with Nuyorican and Dominican friends, enemies and allies and aquaintances along with others from various other communites. I have much experience (both the benigh and the not so benigh) with the racial/color dynamics among boricuas and dominicans.

Both from informal
and formal experience through lectures and personal conversations with Felipe Luciano (one of the Founders od the Young Lords); Marta Vega (founder of Caribbean Cultural Center and Santeria priestess) and Georgina Falu ( a student of Dr. Josef ben Jochannan).

Have you even read Piri Thomas's "Down These Mean Streets" or the thought provoking and

sometimes tragic excerpts of Roberto santiago's "Boricuas"?

I am not claiming expertise on the matter of PRs in particular but neither can you.

You need to sharpen up your researching along with the reading comprehension skills before
posting crap up. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw and understand analogies between similar
situations.

3.Atheist, you're batting a rhousand on this one. You're stating there's never been a time
when darker skinned Egyptians were considered white when that's a major point of the article you have in your own post?!!!

Get off the rock man, you're looking dumber and dumber by the minute.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atheist:
Kovert, First of all Puerto Ricans are not just black and white, they also have Indian bloods in them. Many of them feel proud about their Native Indian heritage. I personally know some Puerto Ricans myself and they feel proud about their heritage. NONE OF THEM would consider themselves Caucasian. They have no confusion of considering themselves Latinos. If you are talking about Dominican Republic it’s a different story because of the dominant African heritage they have but that’s a very complicated issue. Either way I have realized that idiots like you have absolute no respect for other races. Do some researches before you make a claim like that.

Modern Egyptians are only classified as white because of political purpose and to ease the relationship with the current elite class of whiter modern Egyptians who by the way had nothing to do with Ancient Egypt.

There wasn’t a time in USA where any of them the darker (non elite group) skinned Egyptians would have been seen as dark Caucasian. Are you out of your mind? Back then it was even worse. Even the Italians who are clearly darker than other white people are distinguishable of the lightest Africans. Again that is just as fallacious as the blacks saying Italians are white Africans because they have a darker complexion than that of regular white people. Don’t be confused with the political term. Most of the black Egyptians not from Cairo or of the elite class and have direct heritage to the real Ancient Egypt are proud of being black. It’s just the white Arabian invaders in desperation of having their own culture. And only way to do that is cover-up and steal other people's culture.

"This is regardiing a current important civil rights issues which is well documented and well covered by the media, and which will come before the Congress and the Courts. This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen, Dr. Mostafa Hefny, whose professional career is being destroyed and his rights systematically violated essentially because he is proud of his black heritage and seeking to be classified as the black man that he is.

The U.S. government racial classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. It misclassifies and violates the constitutional rights and the civil rights of many groups. How can Ayatollah Khomini(the Iranians) be white? This issue has received extensive coverage in the local, national, and international media including coverage in the Detroit local affiliates of ABC, NBC, and CBS, The Detroit News, CNN, and the British newspaper The Telegraph. We will like to send you a copy of our 4-page website and a color photo of Dr. Hefny( who is classified as white) and two African American pastors (who are classified as blacks) so you can see how this classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. "
http://www.prweb.com/releases/1999/8/prweb9037.php

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 29 May 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 29 May 2005).]

---

As far as know, I have never heard a Dark Egyptian, refer to himself as a Black Person. Even the Egyptian Nubians who are much darker than most Egyptian, may or may not refer to themselves as Black Africans.

As far as I know, Egyptians have always been classified as Caucasians in the U.S. and have never been excluded from obtaining U.S. citizenship in the early days.

Mr. Hefny has a valid point, but he does not represent most Egyptians, because he is Nubian, even the Egyptian government has reviewed his case, and can't understand what he is trying to prove. Egyptian by nationality, but not ethnically so!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atheist:
Kovert, First of all Puerto Ricans are not just black and white, they also have Indian bloods in them. Many of them feel proud about their Native Indian heritage. I personally know some Puerto Ricans myself and they feel proud about their heritage. NONE OF THEM would consider themselves Caucasian. They have no confusion of considering themselves Latinos. If you are talking about Dominican Republic it’s a different story because of the dominant African heritage they have but that’s a very complicated issue. Either way I have realized that idiots like you have absolute no respect for other races. Do some researches before you make a claim like that.

Modern Egyptians are only classified as white because of political purpose and to ease the relationship with the current elite class of whiter modern Egyptians who by the way had nothing to do with Ancient Egypt.

There wasn’t a time in USA where any of them the darker (non elite group) skinned Egyptians would have been seen as dark Caucasian. Are you out of your mind? Back then it was even worse. Even the Italians who are clearly darker than other white people are distinguishable of the lightest Africans. Again that is just as fallacious as the blacks saying Italians are white Africans because they have a darker complexion than that of regular white people. Don’t be confused with the political term. Most of the black Egyptians not from Cairo or of the elite class and have direct heritage to the real Ancient Egypt are proud of being black. It’s just the white Arabian invaders in desperation of having their own culture. And only way to do that is cover-up and steal other people's culture.

"This is regardiing a current important civil rights issues which is well documented and well covered by the media, and which will come before the Congress and the Courts. This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen, Dr. Mostafa Hefny, whose professional career is being destroyed and his rights systematically violated essentially because he is proud of his black heritage and seeking to be classified as the black man that he is.

The U.S. government racial classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. It misclassifies and violates the constitutional rights and the civil rights of many groups. How can Ayatollah Khomini(the Iranians) be white? This issue has received extensive coverage in the local, national, and international media including coverage in the Detroit local affiliates of ABC, NBC, and CBS, The Detroit News, CNN, and the British newspaper The Telegraph. We will like to send you a copy of our 4-page website and a color photo of Dr. Hefny( who is classified as white) and two African American pastors (who are classified as blacks) so you can see how this classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. "
http://www.prweb.com/releases/1999/8/prweb9037.php

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 29 May 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 29 May 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
First, my people, the Native Egyptians would not share your points of view.

---

Many Native Egyptians do not share YOUR point of view.

quote:

---

As far as know, I have never heard a Dark Egyptian, refer to himself as a Black Person.

---

I have.

quote:

---

Mr. Hefny has a valid point, but he does not represent most Egyptians, because he is Nubian even the Egyptian government has reviewed his case, and can't understand what he is trying to prove. Egyptian by nationality, but not ethnically so!!

---

You seem to making Hefny's point about the irrationality and hypocrisy of the United States race labeling system.

But what is your point, other than that you share in said irrationality?

Hefny's ancestors have likely lived in the Nile Valley since predynastic times, and he probably is more closely related to the ancient Kemetians than most of his fellow citisens.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 30 May 2005).]
 

quote:

---

Atheist, where do you get your information from? Sadly, most of your statement is non-factual. First, my people, the Native Egyptians would not share your points of view.

As far as know, I have never heard a Dark Egyptian, refer to himself as a Black Person. Even the Egyptian Nubians who are much darker than most Egyptian, may or may not refer to themselves as Black Africans.

As far as I know, Egyptians have always been classified as Caucasians in the U.S. and have never been excluded from obtaining U.S. citizenship in the early days.

Mr. Hefny has a valid point, but he does not represent most Egyptians, because he is Nubian, even the Egyptian government has reviewed his case, and can't understand what he is trying to prove. Egyptian by nationality, but not ethnically so!!

---

However, there are Egyptians in Upper Egypt that are sometimes darker than many Nubians. The caucasian label is unfarily placed on modern Egyptians when in reality are extremely diverse and mixed people. Even the Egyptians that appear like southern Europeans are not exactly pure caucasoid. I have seen many lighter Egyptians from the North have non-white facial features and hair texture.

If an Egyptian immigrant wants to be classified as such that is his/her own perogative. Personally, I would prefer to other box for people like Egyptians. Since Egypt is as diverse as countries like the Dominican Republic,Puerto Rico,and Brazil.

Fareed, you are correct that darker Egyptians don't call ourselves ''iswad'' because this term is usually reserved for people that are literally pitch black like southern Sudanese. Most darker skinned Egyptians and some Nubians will call themselves 'asmar''. The general term for Egyptians tends to be 'qahmy' meaning ''wheat colored. Somepeople that are not quite asmar are called amii[tanned].

However, many southern Egyptians have many features common amongst African people such as prognathism and kinky hair. Many around Luxor-Aswan area might be considered ''black'' by American terms. I understand how many would preferably not be because of the stigma attached to being such.

Modern Egyptians and Ancient Egyptians, two related, yet very different groups....

Thought Posts:

Berry, A.C., & Berry, R.J., 1972,
‘Origins and Relationships of the Ancient Egyptians, Based on the Study of Non-Metrical Variations in the Skull’,
Journal of Human Evolution,
1, 1972: 199-206; p.203

"...STABILITY and HOMOGENEITY persisted right through the Old and Middle Kingdoms, and BREAKS DOWN only in the New Kingdom period, when we know from many sources that there was considerable INFILTRATION into the Nile Valley."

Thought Writes:

Hence, Modern Egytians are a mixture of the indigenous Nile Valley African people and the INFILTRATORS from Eurasia.

[This message has been edited by Thought2 (edited 30 May 2005).]
 

The modern delta region shows stronger Affinity with Eurasian groups.

Of course this begs the question of when these lineages entered Egypt, with many suggesting that the bulk of Eurasian peoples and lineages are post Middle Kingdom dyanstic Egypt, but regardless, they are not indigenous.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Dahlak, it's been a while.

I agree with what you say about Arabs. Most Middle-Eastern or Arab people that we see in the media are Saudis or Iraqis or Iranians. You rarely get to see the dark-skinned kind. I've seen pictures of Rashaida people before and it surprised me. At first I thought they were mixed with African but they never marry outside their group.

---

Hi Djehuti, the media show a lot crap and mix up things. Even in Southern Iranian island of Qeshm in the Persian Gulf you will see a dark skin people or even more darker. I don`t know if you have linktv, but hear is a program schedule
"The other side of the Burka"
Tuesday May 31 at 8:30PM
Wednesday, June 1 at 2:30AM, 8:30Am, @:30PM
watch and make your own opinion. Even in Kuwait are more darker than what they show on the media. I cann`t believe how America media manuplate them own people, a true arab would never identefide him self as a white. Oh sorry hear is the website http://www.linktv.org/
Some of guys on this argue with a person without the knowledge, even in Iraq have darker arabs. That is why i keep argue with some guys, the other thing is what i don`t understand how in the hell call india as caucasoid? I think they going to far, like this idiot Evel euro, he claim east africa as white, see what i mean, with such person to argue is waste of time.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
Atheist, where do you get your information from? Sadly, most of your statement is non-factual. First, my people, the Native Egyptians would not share your points of view.

As far as know, I have never heard a Dark Egyptian, refer to himself as a Black Person. Even the Egyptian Nubians who are much darker than most Egyptian, may or may not refer to themselves as Black Africans.

As far as I know, Egyptians have always been classified as Caucasians in the U.S. and have never been excluded from obtaining U.S. citizenship in the early days.

Mr. Hefny has a valid point, but he does not represent most Egyptians, because he is Nubian, even the Egyptian government has reviewed his case, and can't understand what he is trying to prove. Egyptian by nationality, but not ethnically so!!

---

have you ever been in Egypt??? how do you know?? You say in america would call Egyptain as caucasians, how long are you in America??? I would be ashamed if a person would put me as caucasians. Believe me i have seen a lot of darker Egyptains. They are not white. I said before, only thing that saddens me is the fact that Caucasians created a World that respects lighter individuals only to benefit themselves. And the other thing is, i don`t think you are a real Egyptain. Only in America put Egyptain as Caucasians, but in Europe don`t exist such a thing. You should be proud of what you are, i never heard a true Egyptain call him self as caucasians.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:

As far as I know, Egyptians have always been classified as Caucasians in the U.S. and have never been excluded from obtaining U.S. citizenship in the early days.

---

Anyone, who has to depend on US government racial classification as an authoritative scientific information, let alone upon which, one can draw historical conclusion on an ancient society, clearly needs to have their head examined. Moreover, it has no bearings on 'indigenous' Nile Valley culture.

quote:

---

fareed:
Mr. Hefny has a valid point

---

...which would make your attempt at downplaying it, invalid!

 

And no matter how much the U.S. census is screwed up, there are still too many Egyptians in Egypt who are dark brown to get around the point. There are and always have been dark brown, non Nubian, Egyptians in Egypt. They are depicted quite vividly in the monuments of ancient Egypt.
 

Despite all the craps you have written you didn't come up with any type of conclusion of my original post.

First you said you have met a lot of PRS and you live with them. So what’s your point? What exactly is your point? You as an ignoramus have blatantly made a bold statement that PRS have difficulties identifying themselves as whether they are Caucasian or not. Wrong, they know who they are and they don’t consider themselves Caucasians. I have rarely met (real live people) or seen on TV where a Puerto Rican considers himself of white race.

Don’t come up with that nonsense of showing me to read some couple of opinionated books to judge what PRS really think of themselves. There is 2 major Latino channels here I constantly watch, and from the people I meet I can get a grasp of how they think about themselves. We are talking about logic I can easily show hundreds of “reference” proving other wise.

Secondly, this is where the “reading comprehension problem” really comes into action. “There wasn’t a time in USA where any of them the darker (non elite group) skinned Egyptians would have been seen as dark Caucasian” This is directly from my own quote. I wasn’t talking about the classification bozo. I have said the US classification of Egyptians and Arabs are clearly flawed and defies science, logic, and common sense. Science tells that they aren’t white PERIOD. I was talking about how they were seen. All the dark Egyptians would have been seen as black Americans or Africans by the American public. Tell me what is this “dark Caucasian” wtf you would be laughed at even by the white people. If you are not white I think you are some kind of brain washed Arab. You can continue to suck white people’s butt but at the end you’ll end up choking on **** . From my knowledge white people don’t associate with your people okay? They consider you people as “sand N-----“ and other derogatory terms. Despite all your butt sucking and denial in Egyptian culture as the black Africans (also defies science and common sense, as it proves it is black African culture) you aren’t going to be accepted by the white people. That’s the bottom line. And if you want to make this argument into some childish insults instead of logical debate again I’m here LOL I’m going nowhere. This is coming from a guy who lived with white people all my life. My dad is white. I know how white people think about arabs or modern egyptians. (Always put "modern" because you guys had nothing to do with Ancient Egypt.) This is self-hatred at the highest level. I even feel sorry for some of these arabs.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/1999/8/prweb9037.php

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 31 May 2005).]
 

But at least from my experience if you have had any experience with the latino community they don't consider themselves Caucasian. They might deny black blood vehemently (self hatred) but they mostly acknowledge themselves as Latinos. Maybe due to the self-hatred pattern they might want to be white but in the public if they say that they would be laughed at because they are clearly not white. I lived in southern part of the country I know how it is like.
 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
AUGUST 28, 1999

Contact Dr. Hefny:Tel/Fax(313)893-7771
Contact Rev. Dr. Virgil Jones: Tel(313)832-6855 and fax (313)832-3333

[Detroit]

This is regardiing a current important civil rights issues which is well documented and well covered by the media, and which will come before the Congress and the Courts. This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen, Dr. Mostafa Hefny, whose professional career is being destroyed and his rights systematically violated essentially because he is proud of his black heritage and seeking to be classified as the black man that he is.

The U.S. government racial classification system defies science, logic, and common sense. It misclassifies and violates the constitutional rights and the civil rights of many groups. How can Ayatollah Khomini(the Iranians) be white? This issue has received extensive coverage in the local, national, and international media including coverage in the Detroit local affiliates of ABC, NBC, and CBS, The Detroit News, CNN, and the British newspaper The Telegraph. We will like to send you a copy of our 4-page website and a color photo of Dr. Hefny( who is classified as white) and two African American pastors (who are classified as blacks) so you can see how this classification system defies science, logic, and common sense.

Please contact us at the above telephone and fax numbers so that we can send you this information by overnight mail.

It seems that this issue is all about the "Nubian" people and not the Egyptians themselves. Please read this part of the article.

This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen,

Este informe no está disponible en español.

ORLANDO SENTINEL
Puerto Ricans Confront Race Issue
By Iván Román
March 31, 2001
Copyright © 2001 ORLANDO SENTINEL. All Rights Reserved.

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico -- For the first time in 50 years, residents of Puerto Rico have identified themselves racially in the U.S. census -- a milestone that civil-rights activists hope will spark public debate about discrimination on the island.

The census figures released Friday showed an 8 percent increase in overall population since 1990, much less than the double-digit growth in the 1970s and ‘80s. The slowdown is cause for concern because it is further evidence of Puerto Rico’s struggling economy and aging population.

But it’s the race question that’s new to most Puerto Ricans -- and the one activists promise to seize upon.

According to the census, 81 percent of the island’s 3,808,610 people identified themselves as being white, while 8 percent considered themselves black and 7 percent checked "some other race."

In a society where widespread racial mixing dates to the 16th century, however, only 4 percent consider themselves multiracial, according to the census.

"Everybody’s mixed here, so what is one going to put down?" said Miguel Torres, a 40-year-old postal clerk who checked white but has both white and black ancestry. "I guess you go with skin color, but what is it good for? Everyone already knows we’re Hispanic."

The numbers are not surprising to those who understand Puerto Rican society. People on the island see themselves as Puerto Ricans first -- with a distinct heritage that is a mixture of Spanish, African and Taino Indian influences. Any racial distinction between black and white is secondary.

A new awareness

But that’s precisely the thinking some activists want to change. And they’re hoping the census figures will create enough awareness to combat society’s general denial that discrimination exists.

Very few racial-discrimination cases have gotten to local and federal courts, and even fewer have succeeded. A new project trained about 60 attorneys in Puerto Rico last year on how to bring racial-discrimination cases, and information gleaned from the census can bolster their cases.

Recent activism by black Puerto Ricans pushing their cases in the courts and media already has started the ball rolling. Marcos A. Rivera, a criminal lawyer who has filed discrimination lawsuits against insurance companies and nightclubs, says census figures must be used first to force local politicians, judges and society to acknowledge the problem.

"More new cases are definitely getting to my offices," said Rivera, author of Black Justice: Cases and Comments. "Before, blacks just kept it all in. Now they are learning that they don’t have to do that."

Now comes the census, which identifies 8 percent of Puerto Ricans as being black, giving them a distinct voice.

"In the [U.S.] South, you had the one-drop rule -- that as long as you had one drop of black blood, you were black," said William Ramirez, a lawyer specializing in discrimination cases. "Here it’s the other way around. As long as you have one drop of white blood, you’re white."

When he went to register his daughter in government offices recently, the clerk, when confronting the race question, told him, "Unless they are really, really black, I put everyone down as white because that helps them later in life."

Ramirez added, "That sums it up right there."

Some Puerto Ricans, though, think rigid race classifications are just an imposition of a flawed U.S. view that has resulted in racial tension.

But for Ramirez and others, the question itself creates awareness and the first step toward solving a problem.

"Racism exists in Puerto Rico, and we should use this opportunity to discuss it and solve it, and it can be healthy to air this out," said Samuel Betances, a renowned sociologist and workforce-diversity consultant born in Puerto Rico and based in Chicago. "As long as we never forget we are, above all else, human beings and Puerto Ricans, racial categorizations like this can enrich us and force us not to live a lie."

Civil-rights activists hope to use Friday’s figures and detailed information coming out this summer to find a correlation between race and poverty. They are searching for what kinds of institutions or mechanisms can be put in place to guarantee that, unlike in the past, those who feel wronged have a place to go.

"This is the opportunity to bring the civil-rights movement to Puerto Rico," said Angelo Falcon, a senior policy executive with the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund who worked closely on promoting the census among Puerto Ricans. "It’s going to generate a real debate, and it’s going to be controversial."

Slowing growth

The census figures also give Puerto Ricans cause for concern about population, which has gone from 18 percent growth in the 1970s to only 8 percent in the 1990s.

Government officials concerned about federal aid lambasted planning expert Elias Gutierrez in 1975 when he predicted the island’s population would not hit 4 million by 2000. Besides the constant migration of people seeking better jobs and following relatives to the U.S. mainland, his forecast that Puerto Rico’s people would age and fertility rates would drop have come true.

"History has proven me right," Gutierrez said. "That means the population growth rate is less than 1 percent per year, and we are getting older. We’ve gone from being like a developing country with a population explosion to a model that’s more like the United States."

Iván Román can be reached at iroman@orlandosentinel.com or 787 729-9071.

Self-Determination Legislation | Puerto Rico Herald Home
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quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
[b]Ausar,

It seems that this issue is all about the "Nubian" people and not the Egyptians themselves.

---

Lol@fareed. Working hard at missing the point.

Don't try too hard Fareed.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 31 May 2005).]
 

Darker does not always mean being "racially negroid or black". The peope of Egypt are pretty much the same racial group, except for some of the minority groups, such as the Europeans, Beduins, Nubians, and a few others. Most of the people who live in Cairo and Alexandria, and other big cities are originally from the countryside and Fellahins/Saee'dies.

Most of the people, could not less about western racial classifications, because it does not matter in Egypt. All they're concerned about is their daily lives and making a decent living, while pleasing Allah!

The division is between native and non-natives, but even the foreigners can become natives by learning Egyptian Arabic and adopting Egyptian customs and traditions.

People are very welcoming of strangers, especially if the make the effort at adapting to the local scene. This reminds of the way the Ancient people looked at ethnicity and race.

The only people in Egypt who have had a hard time intergrating are those that have stuck to their own culture and refused to do as the natives do, such as the Nubians, Beduins, Armenians, Greeks, etc.

Sometimes, it is hard for outsiders to understand the way things work in Egypt, because they refuse to shedd their own prejudice before learning about the local culture.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dahlak:
have you ever been in Egypt??? how do you know?? You say in america would call Egyptain as caucasians, how long are you in America??? I would be ashamed if a person would put me as caucasians. Believe me i have seen a lot of darker Egyptains. They are not white. I said before, only thing that saddens me is the fact that Caucasians created a World that respects lighter individuals only to benefit themselves. And the other thing is, i don`t think you are a real Egyptain. Only in America put Egyptain as Caucasians, but in Europe don`t exist such a thing. You should be proud of what you are, i never heard a true Egyptain call him self as caucasians.

---

"Dr. Hefny, a very dark-skinned Nubian Egyptian native, descendant of a people who have lived at Aswan for thousands of years, wrote a four-page, single-spaced response on January 14, 1988. Among other things, he said:

I am a black man at five levels, the biological, social, psychological, political and ideological levels. I want to reconcile my strong black identity with my classification. ... As a black man and as an African, I am proud of this [my African] heritage. My classification as a white man takes away my black pride and my black heritage. "

What is your point here Fareed also known as self-hating, culture stealing, Arabian Egyptian. Why don't you pucker up your lip so you can kiss more white asses? Get your hopes down buddy because once they are finish with their business they’ll wipe their butts then flush you down the toilet and walk out of the room like nothing ever happened. You’ll never be white in their eyes. In their eyes you are a “sand n-----“. Is that your goal? Be hated by both whites and blacks? Good Luck!

Are you surprised that there are black Egyptians that feel proud of who they are and where they came from? I respect his courage for challenging the system that is unquestionably wrong and corrupted. You'll never be the man that he is.... you are a coward.

The Puerto Ricans I was mainly talking about were the immigrants in USA. I have seen a lot of brainwashed black Dominican Republicans who thought of themselves as white or Indian and ended up changing their mind after how they was treated here in America. You wouldn’t know without meeting real Latino Americans. I have couple of Latino friends myself and I realized that they have no problem of being seen as Latino and they seem to get along fine with black people. These are from my own experience. I already heard about the Mexicans hating blacks but I didn’t know that the entire Latino had such emotional hatred toward black people.

What are you trying to prove here anyway? That Puerto Ricans are just as self-hating and pathetically brainwashed/whitewashed just like you? You know what this is a very sad case. I’m almost sympathetic to these Arabs and Latinos that are delusional of thinking themselves of being white. While they are puckering their lips up like fareed I don’t know if they do realize that at the same time they are being laughed at by the white people who they admire. It’s almost sick submissive mentally when everyone knows how they are treated and looked upon as in this country. Instead of helping other minorities that are in their own situation they choose to suck-up and hoping one day they’ll some how magically turn white. Tsk Tsk Tsk Tsk *shakes head* ......

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 31 May 2005).]
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atheist:

The Puerto Ricans I was mainly talking about were the immigrants in USA. I have seen a lot of brainwashed black Dominican Republicans who thought of themselves as white or Indian and ended up changing their mind after how they was treated here in America. You wouldn’t know without meeting real Latino Americans. I have couple of Latino friends myself and I realized that they have no problem of being seen as Latino and they seem to get along fine with black people. These are from my own experience. I already heard about the Mexicans hating blacks but I didn’t know that the entire Latino had such emotional hatred toward black people.

What are you trying to prove here anyway? That Puerto Ricans are just as self-hating and pathetically brainwashed/whitewashed just like you? You know what this is a very sad case. I’m almost sympathetic to these Arabs and Latinos that are delusional of thinking themselves of being white. While they are puckering their lips up like fareed I don’t know if they do realize that at the same time they are being laughed at by the white people who they admire. It’s almost sick submissive mentally when everyone knows how they are treated and looked upon as in this country. Instead of helping other minorities that are in their own situation they choose to suck-up and hoping one day they’ll some how magically turn white. Tsk Tsk Tsk Tsk *shakes head* ......

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 31 May 2005).]

---

Numbers don't lie but liars use numbers! That census poll could only be reflecting the elite PRs that control the local economy and enforce "shadism" allowing the more Euro-Hispanics to succeed while impeding the darker ones. Same things with Cuba. If one were to go by the cubans in Miami or the ones we see in the media, one would think that Cubans are primarily pale skinned and European looking. However, traveling to Cuba you see immediately that they are about 50% black 40% "mulatto" (which is still black by western standards) and 10% white. Yes, the white cubans still have most of the wealth while the darkers more african ones are at the bottom. I have never travelled to Cuba myself but its is a very common vacation for Bahamians and some other west indian nations. My uncle, father and brother have given me the break down of cuba and they have visited many areas throughout the country.

Take Home Point! Don't always accept numbers without putting them in the right context.
p.s. I think its silly and pointless for PRs to breakdown their populations by race b/c it will only bring about division and tension.
 

All Latinos, like all Muslims are not alike.
It all depends on the degree of Euro brainwashing they want to hold to their hearts.
As an example, Mexico is an Indian (native) population with a mestizo group middle man group. WHo do they tend to vote for? Eurocentrist leaders like Fox (Spanish/English ethnicity) no big thing but they will never elect an indio as leader. Self hatred!

Many times it is just each group liking thir own. SOme overdo it while some latinos despise other because of their 'lowly' origins like the indio (indigena). It comes down to ignorance.

Is the Muslim world you have Arab and Persian against Turk etc. In some places it is worse than others and many times some groups just cannot survive in the modern world so they destroy it instead of looking at progressive and forward thinking! Comes back to ignorance.

As a matter of fact I see alot of similarities between Latinos and Muslims regarding the diversity of our nations keeping in mind that Arab culture was a base of Spain for over 7 centuries when Tariq landed in Spain. The big rock is named after him (Gibraltar-Rock of Tariq).

hoda hafez
 

quote:

---

Ausar,

It seems that this issue is all about the "Nubian" people and not the Egyptians themselves. Please read this part of the article.

This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen,

---

Egyptians have not complained because many of whom have migrated to America come from higher economic brackets,and tend to come from more elite backgrounds. Most browner rural Egyptians if confronted with the same issue would probably protest as did Moustafa Hefny.

I think I pointed out previously that I felt a special category should be given for Egyptians. Egyptians are not caucasoid people but they are a mixture. Some Egyptians are clearly caucasoid,but most are mixed. People who can't come to grips with this are usually Egyptian expats who have been living too long amongst the Westeners.

Many non-Nubian Egyptian Egyptians living in Upper Egypt would be considered by apperance ''black'' by American classification. This is just a fact.

This is pretty much my position fareed:

Nicole B. Hansen Aug 17 1998, 3:00 am show options
Newsgroups: soc.culture.egyptian
From: nbhan...@midway.uchicago.edu (Nicole B. Hansen) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1998/08/17
Subject: Re: Egyptian were NEVER NEGRO!!
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

On 17 Aug 1998 02:52:19 GMT, agent...@aol.com (Agenthaz) wrote:

>The reason We Egyptians don't argue much about your Afrocentric tendencies is
>because we KNOW for a FACT that MY ancient ansestors were *not* Negro. We may
>be white, olive and brown, but never black. Egypt is for the Egyptians, not
>you. but you're welcome to visit. Lumping my civilization with the Zulu's and
>Kenyans makes NO SENCE. Not only to we look distant from them, we are seperated
>from them geographically. The only Negro or "black" civilization in Egypt is
>NUBIA. EGYPT FOR EGYPTIANS and stop these lies and robbery of our heritage
>and culture for your own purposes!

There are Egyptians today, who if you put them in a lineup next to
some people from other parts of Africa, whom you would not necessarily
be able to say they were from Egypt. I know many Egyptians who agree
that they themselves look "black." As much as I disagree whith those
people from other parts of Africa who say that their ancestors were
ancient Egyptians, I find Egyptians such as yourself who deny that
there are people who look "black" in Egypt today, and that there were
no such people in ancient Egypt, offensive as well. First of all, you
are denying the existence of millions of your fellow citizens
(Saidis), and in the process, you are implying that having black skin
is bad. There are Egyptians today, who at least by skin color, and
yes, sometimes even facial features, look just like other "blacks."
However, what you need to realize is that just because there are
people in Egypt today who look like other "blacks" and that there were
people that looked like that in ancient times, doesn't mean the
similarity of the Egyptian "blacks" to other African "blacks" extends
any further. It is basically skin deep for the most part, as modern
Egyptians share many cultural traits with their ancient ancestors that
other Africans don't share with the ancient Egyptians (of course, the
conversation here has been so simple-minded that no one has discussed
anything but appearance). This, I believe is why many Egyptians are
so averse to being called "black" in America. Some of them clearly
are not "black", but others realize the similarity is skin deep and
don't feel they share any cultural or historical background in common
with other "African-Americans" many of whom came to this country as
slaves from W. Africa, and who suffer from discrimination. These
Egyptians don't want to suffer the same discrimination by identifying
themselves with this group, or as seems to be the case with many of
the Egyptians posting here, have bought into the racist belief that
being "black" is a bad thing. The fact is, in spite of your denial,
that Egyptians were depicted in ancient times as being white to
"black" just as there are white to "black" Egyptians today. Any
Egyptian who denies this fact is just making it much more difficult
for himself to defend himself against Afrocentric people. Ya
masriyyin, its a simple matter to show that the Egyptians today are
the descendents of the ancient Egyptians if you just take off the
racist glasses you are wearing and see the colorS of your fellow

quote:

---

dahlak,

Darker does not always mean being "racially negroid or black". The peope of Egypt are pretty much the same racial group, except for some of the minority groups, such as the Europeans, Beduins, Nubians, and a few others. Most of the people who live in Cairo and Alexandria, and other big cities are originally from the countryside and Fellahins/Saee'dies.

---

This is true but the migrants in from Upper Egypt/the Delta usually live in their own communities called Baladi quarters. You will find more elite Egyptians known as Afrangi living in areas like Zamalek,Maadi,and other areas.

A few Baladi neighboorhoods I know about are Boulq Abu Elah,Imbaba,and other communities. You will find Fellahin and Saidis living side by side. My family is from Luxor-Aswan and lives within these communities.

Let me point out that while modern Egyptians don't look much like Western/Central Africans many do have similar apperances to eastern Africans,and many have negriod features like avealour pronagathism and many also have kinky hair.

Many Upper Egyptians[Saidi] have a rough time assimilating into mainstream Egyptian culture. Egypt might not have the racism of places like Brazil but it is a very elitist place that is oftentimes divided by religious difference as well.

I do believe modern Upper Egyptians are less mixed than many Egyptians who live within the cities and in the Delta area. This much I will validate. Saidi people only intermarried amongst themselves;while people in Cairo and ALexandria have intermarried with Turks,Arabs,Greeks,Armenians,Syrians,Moroccans ,and whomever else that came through Egypt.

Even the Nubians are not 100% homogenous with many of them even having Arabic and Turkish ancestry. I mentioned before there are two Nubian groups known as the kushaf and Magaarb Nubians that are heavily mixed with Turkish and Hungarian ancestry. Most Egyptians don't know this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ETHNICITY
The Dominican Republic has the distinction of being the only Latin American country which has a "mixed" population as the overwhelming demographic majority. The amount of historical miscegenation between people of different African, Indian, and European blood has been high, and has produced a multitude of "racial" mixes. European, or non-African/ non-indigenous ancestry has ranged tremendously, from Castillian Spanish to Converso Jewish and Moorish Spanish, to French, English, German, and Italian, as well as to Middle Eastern Lebanese and Asian Chinese descent! As well, African ancestry has ranged from northern Moors to central and west African peoples! In this sense, Dominicans are a multi-cultural, or, better put, a multi-biological people. On top of this, however, many Dominicans have combinations of "racial" features that make it difficult to pinpoint their exact biological ancestry (Alvarez 1973). Thus, the Dominican Republic appears a country of "melting-pot" creolization as well. Dominicans proudly identify themselves as being a "salcocho" (a stew that is often referred to as the national dish) of the Native American Taino Indians, Africans, and Europeans.

However, the identity stew has a strong Latino flavor to it, highly seasoned by a national ideology derived from Spanish rule. Ultimately, the Dominican Republic is historically and biologically multicultural, while its national identity is exceptionally uni-cultural. That is to say, despite the variable historical and biological backgrounds of its people, Dominican cultural identity is strikingly uniform. Indeed, it is economic markers that divide the nation as opposed to cultural or biological factors.

Racial politics of Dominican identity is more complex than the situation in many American countries, including the United States. Unlike the United States system of referring to anyone with a remote drop of African blood as culturally African-American or racially "black" (Marks 1994), Dominicans tend to disregard their African culture and racial "black-ness," identifying more with their European-derived Latino ancestry (Reid 1992). The converse of United States definitions, where one "black" great-grandparent makes an individual "black," an even more remote drop of non-African blood makes a person "not-black" in the Dominican Republic. Many Dominicans traveling in the United States are confused to find themselves grouped together with African-Americans as opposed to Latinos (Ferguson 1992). Finally, African culture, while certainly detectable in Dominican lifeways, has not played as strong a role as in other Caribbean nations (Maingot 1992). Ironically, it is Haiti, the first free African-derived nation in the Americas, and the country with the strongest African identity in the Caribbean, that shares the island of Hispaniola with the Dominican Republic!
 

This is what most Dominicans look like. Regardless of what they think about themselves they are black. They are black like black Americans, black Africans, and black Ancient Egyptians. Just because Vanilla Ice thinks he is black doesn't mean he is again it defies science and logic. lol
http://www.debbiesdominicantravel.com/southphoto.jpg
http://presentmedia.com/drpoverty/pics/Ismael%20Shoe%20 Shine%20Boy%20Dominican%20Republic%20Santo%20Domingo%20LARGE.jpg
http://www.marcad.com/travel/CA/Santo%20Domingo%20Kids,%20Dominican%20Republic_small.j pg
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo178546.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo177000.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo174937.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo170319.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo168800.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo153978.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo122411.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo167935.htm

Bottom line is despite their self-hating patterns Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are mostly mulatto and Dominicans are mostly black. It's common sense you don't even need to do a research. Just go look at some pictures. Quit trying to forcefully relate everyone with the white race. If you really want to go broad technically we are all Africans.

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 31 May 2005).]
 

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 31 May 2005).]
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
dahlak,

Darker does not always mean being "racially negroid or black". The peope of Egypt are pretty much the same racial group, except for some of the minority groups, such as the Europeans, Beduins, Nubians, and a few others. Most of the people who live in Cairo and Alexandria, and other big cities are originally from the countryside and Fellahins/Saee'dies.

Most of the people, could not less about western racial classifications, because it does not matter in Egypt. All they're concerned about is their daily lives and making a decent living, while pleasing Allah!

The division is between native and non-natives, but even the foreigners can become natives by learning Egyptian Arabic and adopting Egyptian customs and traditions.

People are very welcoming of strangers, especially if the make the effort at adapting to the local scene. This reminds of the way the Ancient people looked at ethnicity and race.

The only people in Egypt who have had a hard time intergrating are those that have stuck to their own culture and refused to do as the natives do, such as the Nubians, Beduins, Armenians, Greeks, etc.

Sometimes, it is hard for outsiders to understand the way things work in Egypt, because they refuse to shedd their own prejudice before learning about the local culture.

---

I didn`t say darker does mean racially negroid or black, but darker does not mean white. The only white are Europians, but not all. You have been talking bull crap. Back then race didn`t play a roll to ancient Egypt or Nubian or Kush. In my opinion they were the same. I think you mix up things. The true Egyptain stay on his or her culture, i mean a native. You talking about the westners culture, so Egyptain, Nubians and other native people are not westners and are not white. Let me tell you as far as i know the westners don`t have a culture like ancient times. I realy don`t think you are a native Egyptain. What is culture for you? Don`t try to separet Egyptain and Nubians or others. I would be ashamed to put my own people as a white. I ask you before have you ever been in Egypt? America is the only country try to put under the race white, i never heard such thing in Europe. I would never call my self white, i am proud what i am. I never heard my native Egyptain friends call them selves white. Let me tell you one is dark and the other one is brown and they are native Egyptain. Don` mix up things, westners don`t have a culture, none i know of.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dahlak:

I didn`t say darker does mean racially negroid or black, but darker does not mean white.

---

Thought Writes:

Modern scientific knowledge indicates that phenotype and genotype are not absolutly correlated.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
Atheist, where do you get your information from? Sadly, most of your statement is non-factual. First, my people, the Native Egyptians would not share your points of view.

As far as know, I have never heard a Dark Egyptian, refer to himself as a Black Person. Even the Egyptian Nubians who are much darker than most Egyptian, may or may not refer to themselves as Black Africans.

As far as I know, Egyptians have always been classified as Caucasians in the U.S. and have never been excluded from obtaining U.S. citizenship in the early days.

Mr. Hefny has a valid point, but he does not represent most Egyptians, because he is Nubian, even the Egyptian government has reviewed his case, and can't understand what he is trying to prove. Egyptian by nationality, but not ethnically so!!

---

Fareed u make me sick to the stomach, who are u to speak for all of egypt. You are one out of 80 million. Egypt today is diverse. I am an egyptian myself and no way i see myself or most of egypt caucasian.

Egyptians who never had trouble gettin citizenship were elite people from Ciaro or Alex which had great deal of foriegn migration during that time. Mostly truely of foriegn decant. Most of those early immigrant egyptians here if you were to really ask the family line they will tell they have turkish blood, or armenian, etc... thats not my point though my point is you are sad for thinking the way you think.

FAREED SAYS "As far as I know, Egyptians have always been classified as Caucasians in the U.S. and have never been excluded from obtaining U.S. citizenship in the early days."

What u said thier really makes me sick. Even Athiest who is not egyptian knows and understands about Egypt more then you. And no way u can say he is afrocentric, because he is not even black.

Egypt SHOULD NOT AT ALL HAVE A CAUCASIAN labEL. God willing ppl like Dr. Henafy will fight to clear up misunderstandings like this, as we had in the past with East Africa.

Where in Egypt you from because that will explain alot. You prolly one of those boys from Ciaro and ALexandria, and most you guys never get to travel around Egypt see the differant diverse population.
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
Ausar,

It seems that this issue is all about the "Nubian" people and not the Egyptians themselves. Please read this part of the article.

[b]
This issue involves the Nubians who are blacks or Negroes according to the Census Bureau, and according to the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, but who are classified as whites according to various regulations of the U.S. government including the Office of Mangagement and Budget derective No.15 and the office of the EEOC. This issue also involves a Nubian (from Egypt) and a naturalized U.S. citizen,

[/B]

---

Nubians in egypt are not the only black/ismar however you want to classify, many egyptians can go in that category both in delta and upper egypt. Trust me onece you go around egypt visit differant cities. You will know how ignorant you are about this issue. I know some egyptians wont care bout this issue of race but when u are in the States, you got to care. Thats how iT is in Egypt now we in the USA we gots to care.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yazid904:
Athiest,

All Latinos, like all Muslims are not alike.
It all depends on the degree of Euro brainwashing they want to hold to their hearts.
As an example, Mexico is an Indian (native) population with a mestizo group middle man group. WHo do they tend to vote for? Eurocentrist leaders like Fox (Spanish/English ethnicity) no big thing but they will never elect an indio as leader. Self hatred!

Many times it is just each group liking thir own. SOme overdo it while some latinos despise other because of their 'lowly' origins like the indio (indigena). It comes down to ignorance.

Is the Muslim world you have Arab and Persian against Turk etc. In some places it is worse than others and many times some groups just cannot survive in the modern world so they destroy it instead of looking at progressive and forward thinking! Comes back to ignorance.

As a matter of fact I see alot of similarities between Latinos and Muslims regarding the diversity of our nations keeping in mind that Arab culture was a base of Spain for over 7 centuries when Tariq landed in Spain. The big rock is named after him (Gibraltar-Rock of Tariq).

hoda hafez

---

You say muslim as if its a race or ethnic background. Muslim is a religion that is has followers all over the world, indonesia, china, india, Nigeria, albania, Ecuador, Mali, etc...
 

I should have been clear. Latinos (a US manufactured term to categorize all peoples of South American, Central America, parts of North Amaerica and Caribbean) and Muslim share a multicultural and multiethnic nation (they may not always agree) but it is a present reality.

No other political or social or cultural initiative is included with my asertion.

Thanks you

heli mamnoonah
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by yazid904:
Multi,

I should have been clear. Latinos (a US manufactured term to categorize all peoples of South American, Central America, parts of North Amaerica and Caribbean) and Muslim share a multicultural and multiethnic nation (they may not always agree) but it is a present reality.

No other political or social or cultural initiative is included with my asertion.

Thanks you

heli mamnoonah

---

Hispanics
This term is often used to refer collectively to all Spanish-speakers. However, it specifically connotes a lineage or cultural heritage related to Spain. As many millions of people who speak Spanish are not of true Spanish descent (e.g., native Americans), and millions more live in Latin America (cf., "Latino" below) yet do not speak Spanish or claim Spanish heritage (e.g., Brazilians) this term is incorrect as a collective name for all Spanish-speakers, and may actually be cause for offense.

Latino
This term is used to refer to people originating from, or having a heritage related to, Latin America, in recognition of the fact that this set of people is actually a superset of many nationalities. Since the term "Latin" comes into use as the least common denominator for all peoples of Latin America in recognition of the fact that some romance language (Spanish, Portuguese, French) is the native tongue of the majority of Latin Americans, this term is widely accepted by most. However, the term is not appropriate for the millions of native Americans who inhabit the region.

Mexican
Specifically, the nationality of the inhabitants of Mexico. Therefore, the term is used appropriately for Mexican citizens who visit or work in the United States, but it is insufficient to designate those people who are citizens of the United States (they were born in the US or are naturalized citizens of the US) who are of Mexican ancestry. The various terms used to properly designate such people are described below, however, it is important to explain why these people feel it is important to make such a distinction. US citizens who are troubled by this often point out that most immigrants do not distinguish themselves by point of origin first, (i.e., German-American), but simply as "Americans" (another troublesome term, but we won't get detoured by that here). Here are some reasons why many US citizens of Mexican extraction feel that it is important to make the distinction:

*Not "Americans" by choice
A scant 150 years ago, approximately 50% of what was then Mexico was appropriated by the US as spoils of war, and in a series of land "sales" that were coerced capitalizing on the US victory in that war and Mexico's weak political and economic status. A sizable number of Mexican citizens became citizens of the United States from one day to the next as a result, and the treaty declaring the peace between the two countries recognized the rights of such people to their private properties (as deeded by Mexican or Spanish colonial authorities), their own religion (Roman Catholicism) and the right to speak and receive education in their own tongue (for the majority, Spanish) [refer to the text of the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo]. Therefore, the descendants of this population continue to press for such rights, and many hold that theirs is a colonized land and people in view of the fact that their territory and population was taken over by military force.

*Mexicans first, "Americans" second?
Another and more numerous class of US citizens of Mexican extraction are either descendants of, or are themselves, people who conceive of themselves as temporarily displaced from Mexico by economic circumstances. As opposed to the waves of European migrants who willingly left their countries due to class and religious discrimination, and sought to make their lives anew in the "new world" and never to return to the "old land," these displaced Mexicans typically maintain strong family ties in Mexico (by visiting periodically, and by investing their incomes in homes or kin in Mexico), and usually intend to return to Mexico provided they can become economically secure. Therefore these people maintain and nurture their children in their language, religion and customs.

However, There is great tension within this population between those of Mexican birth who conceive of themselves as temporary guests in the US, and their descendants who are born in the US, are acculturated with the norms of broader US society in public schools, and are not motivated by the same ties that bind a migrant generation of Mexicans. This creates a classic "niche" of descendants of immigrants who are full-fledged US citizens, but who typically do not have access to all the rights and privileges of citizenship because of the strong cultural identity imbued in them by their upbringing and the discriminatory reaction of the majority population against a non-assimilated and easily identified subclass. This group of people feels a great need to distinguish itself from both its US milieu and its Mexican "Mother Culture," which does not typically welcome or accept "prodigals." This is truly a unique set of people, therefore, in that it endures both strong ties and strong discrimination from both US and Mexican mainstream parent cultures. The result has been the creation of a remarkable new culture that needs its own name and identity.

Mexican-American
This term is commonly used to recognize US citizens who are descendants of Mexicans, following the pattern sometimes used to identify the extraction of other ethnic Americans (e.g., "African-American). This term is acceptable to many Mexican descendants, but for those who do not identify with a Mexican heritage, but rather with a Spanish heritage, it is unacceptable (cf., "Hispano," below). Also, for those who do not view themselves as "Americans" by choice, this term is problematic, and for others the implication that the identity of the bearer is unresolved, or in limbo, between two antipodal influences, belies their self-concept as a blend that supersedes its origins and is stronger, richer and more dynamic than either of its cultural roots.

Hispano
This term is preferred by that subpopulation, located primarily in the US southwest, who identify with the Spanish settlers of the area, and not with the Mexican settlers (specifically, the Creole Spanish-Native American race). There is in fact an important number of these people located along the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico and in the northern Sangre de Cristo mountain range of the same state. This group has been traditionally a very closed and conservative one, and recent evidence provides important explanations for this: they seem to be descendants of persecuted Jews who fled Spain during the 16th and 17th centuries and sought refuge in what were then the farthest reaches of the known world. They survived by minimizing their contact with outsiders and by hiding or disguising their religious and cultural identities as much as possible. Historical researchers call them "cryptic Jews."

Chicano
A relatively recent term that has been appropriated by many Mexican descendants as unique and therefore reflective of their unique culture, though its first usage seems to have been discriminatory. The most likely source of the word is traced to the 1930 and 40s period, when poor, rural Mexicans, often native Americans, were imported to the US to provide cheap field labor, under an agreement of the governments of both countries. The term seems to have come into first use in the fields of California in derision of the inability of native Nahuatl speakers from Morelos state to refer to themselves as "Mexicanos," and instead spoke of themselves as "Mesheecanos," in accordance with the pronunciation rules of their language (for additional details, refer to the file MEXICO on this same subdirectory). An equivocal factor is that in vulgar Spanish it is common for Mexicans to use the "CH" conjunction in place of certain consonants in order to create a term of endearment. Whatever its origin, it was at first insulting to be identified by this name. The term was appropriated by Mexican-American activists who took part in the Brown Power movement of the 60s and 70s in the US southwest, and has now come into widespread usage. Among more "assimilated" Mexican-Americans, the term still retains an unsavory connotation, particularly because it is preferred by political activists and by those who seek to create a new and fresh identity for their culture rather than to subsume it blandly under the guise of any mainstream culture.

For additional information and resources on Chicano Studies, a good starting point is the Chicano-Latino Network (CLNET) accessible through the University of California - Los Angeles Gopher Server:

gopher.ucla.edu 70

under the heading:

->Chicano/LatinoNet

 

Racial classification should be based on science and logic, and not on political reasoning. It doesn’t matter how Puerto Ricans or Dominicans think of themselves as white. It’s not something to be proud of. (being whitewashed by the government) Based on science, and based on the world’s view most of them wouldn’t be considered white. Most Puerto Ricans would be considered mixed or mulatto and most Dominicans would be considered black if they were judged by group of random people of Americans, Europeans, Asians, Russians, and Africans, and people from all around the world. Only two types of people that’ll deny this are from the Arab and Latino community who are seriously white-brainwashed to a point where they aren’t even qualified to be in a position to even speak about this subject. Also keep in mind that since majority of the people in certain country are of certain race doesn’t mean all of them are.

All in all, it’s going to take a long time to convince the Latinos or the Arabs (including elite modern Egyptians) that being black or being dark isn’t a bad thing. As long as they have this stigma and racial bias along with the continuous of brainwashing of the government they’ll be forever trapped in their own mythical paradise. It’s not too late to feel proud of who they are. They can build their own mulatto community and feel good about themselves instead of being in a pathetic and also disgraceful position of sucking up on a race that has no interest of being associated with them. It’s nothing but a sick slavery mentality.

P.S I know there are many smart intelligent Arabs and Latinos who feel proud of who they are. This is to the many Arabs and Latinos that are delusional of their own identity and ethnicity. Survey showing 80% of the Puerto Ricans thinking that they are of white race is indeed a serious problem and almost too pathetic to even believe that it is true.
 

Even though Latin countries are not as racist in the sense that they freely intermarry and misgenize they still have a color code. Which is why to marry a person lighter than you is considered "marrying upward"
 

It’s really ugly and almost embarrassing. Being mixed myself I’m very proud of who I am, an Asian. To be honest I never considered myself white. And it wouldn’t make a difference if I had black or Indian blood in me. I would be proud of being black or Indian. I don’t care how oppressed the race is I rather be a proud black man and have some social disadvantage than being a weak submissive coward who gets pay checks by fabricating their true identity, and also those puckering their lips up so they can suck up to people that laugh behind their back.

That's why guys like Muhammad Ali will always be remembered. Not only was he the greatest boxer of all time but he was also courageous enough to go against the flawed political system during the 60s and 70s when racial tension between blacks and whites were at an all time high. He stood up for his people and challenged what was certainly to be wrong. It’s people like him that better one’s race not cowards who marry light skinned people only in purpose to have higher social status. Suck-ups never get respect.

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 01 June 2005).]
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atheist:
Fareed, I had enough with your superficial copy-and-paste knowledge. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to know that the majority of the people in Dominican Republic are black. I know in some of the big cities you’ll find a lot of mulattos and white visitors. But in most part you’ll see nothing but black people. In fact even a lot of the mixed ones have too much black blood not to be consider black. Insignificant amount of other bloods shouldn't be much of a factor. Why don’t you go on a vacation on DR and you’ll exactly know what I’m talking about. Dominicans disregard their blackness because they were taught from early age by the government that some how being black is bad and inferior. That kind of whitewash have had led them to believe that they are white or Indian while in fact their appearance, culture, and black African heritage are irrefutable. Do you watch baseball? All the Dominican players are black. Undistinguishable compare to the African blacks or American blacks. Again it defies science, logic, and common sense to say they are something else other than the black race.

This is what most Dominicans look like. Regardless of what they think about themselves they are black. They are black like black Americans, black Africans, and black Ancient Egyptians. Just because Vanilla Ice thinks he is black doesn't mean he is again it defies science and logic. lol
http://www.debbiesdominicantravel.com/southphoto.jpg
http://presentmedia.com/drpoverty/pics/Ismael%20Shoe%20 Shine%20Boy%20Dominican%20Republic%20Santo%20Domingo%20LARGE.jpg
http://www.marcad.com/travel/CA/Santo%20Domingo%20Kids,%20Dominican%20Republic_small.j pg
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo178546.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo177000.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo174937.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo170319.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo168800.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo153978.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo122411.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Central_America/Dominican_Republic/photo167935.htm

Bottom line is despite their self-hating patterns Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are mostly mulatto and Dominicans are mostly black. It's common sense you don't even need to do a research. Just go look at some pictures. Quit trying to forcefully relate everyone with the white race. If you really want to go broad technically we are all Africans.

[This message has been edited by Atheist (edited 31 May 2005).]

---

Fareed is full of BS! I have family members who have taveled extensively through DR and they all say that DR are majority black with some more mixed blacks "mulatto" and very few whites besides some foreign investors and tourist. Besides this, its is common knowledge among PRs that DRs are more significantly African than they are. So Fareed close your mouth because your BS is attracting flies!
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fareed:
dahlak,

The only people in Egypt who have had a hard time intergrating are those that have stuck to their own culture and refused to do as the natives do, such as the Nubians, Beduins, Armenians, Greeks, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by relaxx:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fareed:
[b]dahlak,

The only people in Egypt who have had a hard time intergrating are those that have stuck to their own culture and refused to do as the natives do, such as the Nubians, Beduins, Armenians, Greeks, etc.

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[/B][/QUOTE]

Fareed,
Have you ever lived in Egypt?
Relaxx