Should be easy, should it not?
Just for amusement: Cleopetra.
;-)
here's a pharaoh who is undeniably NOT caucasian
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:Just for amusement: Cleopetra.
;-)
TO ME SHE LOOKS LIKE A LIGHT SKINNED BLACK PERSON.
AND, I REQUESTED A PHAROAH!
ONE OF NEFERTITI'S DAUGHTER'S...
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix7.htm
W/HER HUSBAND, AHKENATEN...
HER AND FAMILY(NOT DEPICTED "WHITE" HERE)
NEFERTITI...
[This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 13 October 2005).]
[This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 13 October 2005).]
There is some debate about wheather Akenaten had a diease that difigured his apperance called Marofan. Evenybody is making a fuss about Nefertiti but it's very possible that she had some non-Egyptian ancestry. Her father was Ay from Akhmin in Upper Egypt,and her mother was Pey who possibly was a Syrian instead of a Egyptian.
Cleopetra was the last Pharoah and she was definately White. Like as pearly White.
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:Cleopetra was the last Pharoah and she was definately White. Like as pearly White.
Some say she was mixed. It all depends who you talk to.
There is some suspcision of Cleopatra's grandmother being non-Ptolemaic. This does not ncessarily mean that her grandmother was necessarily Egyptian or Nubian. Possibly she could have been Syrian. In any case, the Ptolemaic pharaohs that ruled Egypt did not intermarry with local Egyptians. Most interbreed amongst Macedonian family lines.
quote:
Originally posted by beanpiee:
present just 1(one) Ancient Egyptian pharoah who was undeniably Caucasian.Should be easy, should it not?
I think Ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Nubians, Romans, Greeks, and all other Ancient people were more concerned with persons nationality or tribe rather than persons skin color or how he/she looked. They most likely didn't see race as we see it in the World.
quote:
I think Ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Nubians, Romans, Greeks, and all other Ancient people were more concerned with persons nationality or tribe rather than persons skin color or how he/she looked. They most likely didn't see race as we see it in the World.
You are probably right about this. I still think it would be nieave to say they did not notice physical differences of people lighter or darker than themselves. Ancient Egyptians,for instance, believe that all non-Egyptians were isofret[chasos] that needed to be balanced by ma'at. Yet, we see examples of foreign groups like Syrians,Caanites,and Libyans that became integrated into the overall culture of the ancient Egyptians.
Greeks felt people all non-Greeks were barbarians and that non-Athenian citizens could not obtain citizenship,but still we also see foreigners that intermarried with Greeks throughout their civlization.
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:Just for amusement: Cleopetra.
;-)
Of course Cleopatra was of Macedonian/Greek ancestry. Many Afrocentrics talk about her grandmother but this was probably unlikely.
We should stick to native rulers!
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:Cleopetra was the last Pharoah and she was definately White. Like as pearly White.
Greeks and Macedonians are not what most would consider to be "pearly white". More of an olive skinned. Northern Europeans are the ones who on average meet such a decription.
Cleopatra VII was accepted as a Pharaoh because she was very loyal to the Egyptian people and immersed herself in their indegenious culture and learned their language. Her Ptolmaic ancestors did not do this.
As far as her appearance, as beautiful an illustration as it may be, I doubt she looked like this.
If she had a Nubian Grandmother than perhaps she could have but it is irresponsible of anyone serious about history to hold on to such speculation.
She more than likely looked like this bust of her.
Even still as far as complexion is concerned I think the beautiful, olive-skinned actress Leonor Varela who is of French and Chilean descent was better representation of what Cleopatra really looked like when she played her in the 1999 remake than Elizabeth Taylor was in the original movie.
Now as far as looking "Caucasian" there are several royals who could look that way. That doesn't mean they WERE caucasian. The Ancient Egyptians were biologically African and would have facial features that represent the indegnious people of the region I.E East Africans like your modern Somali, beja, Afar and Saeedi Upper Egyptian, who are their closest descendants. Certainly a Black African people.
Check out this interesting link.
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/people.html
[This message has been edited by Mansa Musa (edited 23 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
You are probably right about this. I still think it would be nieave to say they did not notice physical differences of people lighter or darker than themselves. Ancient Egyptians,for instance, believe that all non-Egyptians were isofret[chasos] that needed to be balanced by ma'at. Yet, we see examples of foreign groups like Syrians,Caanites,and Libyans that became integrated into the overall culture of the ancient Egyptians.Greeks felt people all non-Greeks were barbarians and that non-Athenian citizens could not obtain citizenship,but still we also see foreigners that intermarried with Greeks throughout their civlization.
They properly noticed the physical difference between people, but in Ancient time a single tribe or Nation like Egypt could have people who are very dark skinned and favor more of Sudanese physical and the same tribe could have people who are very light and favor of Hebrew/Arab or Berber physically and some who are inbetween the two extremes. The same thing in the middle east were you had people who were very dark and very light in a single tribe or sometimes single family.
quote:
Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11:
They properly noticed the physical difference between people, but in Ancient time a single tribe or Nation like Egypt could have people who are very dark skinned and favor more of Sudanese physical and the same tribe could have people who are very light and favor of Hebrew/Arab or Berber physically and some who are inbetween the two extremes. The same thing in the middle east were you had people who were very dark and very light in a single tribe or sometimes single family.
I don't doubt the possiblity that there were lighter skinned Egyptians in Ancient times but it is important to remember that they almost unanimously chose medium brown to represent themselves in their most realistic forms of art.
There many have been Syrian type migrants to the Nile region especially in Lower Egypt even in pre-dynastic times. Such people do not appear to be the majority or in any way numerous as far as the evidence shows.
The Egyptians stressed the physical differences between themselves and their neighbors but to be Egyptian had far more to do with language, religion and culture than appearance.
Cleopatra was actually more intelligent than beautiful. Most historians are know admitting that she was not so beautiful as many made him out to be. She was intelligent and she was the only Macedonian/Greek that took the liberty to learn the ancient Egyptian language. So she was more brawn than beauty.
Anyway, there is no reason why I would claim her. The western academics can have her.
Today she is probably the most famous of all of ancient Egypt's rulers, and is usually known as simply Cleopatra, all of her similarly-named predecessors having been largely forgotten. Cleopatra was never in fact the sole ruler of Egypt; she only co-ruled with her father, brother, brother-husband, and son. However, in all these cases, her co-rulers were king in title only, with her keeping the true authority. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra
[This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
Greeks and Macedonians are not what most would consider to be "pearly white". More of an olive skinned. Northern Europeans are the ones who on average meet such a decription.Cleopatra VII was accepted as a Pharaoh because she was very loyal to the Egyptian people and immersed herself in their indegenious culture and learned their language. Her Ptolmaic ancestors did not do this.
As far as her appearance, as beautiful an illustration as it may be, I doubt she looked like this.
If she had a Nubian Grandmother than perhaps she could have but it is irresponsible of anyone serious about history to hold on to such speculation.She more than likely looked like this bust of her.
Even still as far as complexion is concerned I think the beautiful, olive-skinned actress Leonor Varela who is of French and Chilean descent was better representation of what Cleopatra really looked like when she played her in the 1999 remake than Elizabeth Taylor was in the original movie.
Now as far as looking "Caucasian" there are several royals who could look that way. That doesn't mean they WERE caucasian. The Ancient Egyptians were biologically African and would have facial features that represent the indegnious people of the region I.E East Africans like your modern Somali, beja, Afar and Saeedi Upper Egyptian, who are their closest descendants. Certainly a Black African people.
Check out this interesting link.
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/people.html
Some pearls are kinda olive in color....
;-)
[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by beanpiee:
present just 1(one) Ancient Egyptian pharoah who was undeniably Caucasian.Should be easy, should it not?
quote:
Originally posted by multisphinx:
Yea one thing is to compare egyptian art to persian, greek, or roman, the ppl look tottally differant. The greeks roman, and persians look undeniably white and simular, but AE look nothing like them AT ALL!!!!
CONSIDERING THE EVIDENCE, MAY WE AGREE THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE NOT WHITE?
IF NOT, PLEASE, PRESENT PROOF OR, BE QUIET!
Essentially Ethiopians, Somalians, Mesai, Fulani, Tutsi, etc, are actually Caucasian people originally but later mixed with Blacks. As strange as that might seem that is their position.
Of course you have the Hor type of person that simply thinks that the Ancient Egyptians are bascially no different than the modern day Egyptian. They watch movies and read books and see the selective photos of Egyptian Art and out of bias simply assumes the Egyptians are Caucasian people. You can show these types of people plenty of evidence to the contrary but they religiously believe in a Caucasian Egyptian society. This is primarily because they cannot accept a Black Ancient Egyptian society since that would undermine their rationality of discrimination against Blacks.
The Hor type cannot simply answer the most basic issue of the race debate of the Egyptians. They simply ignore the facts and with bigoted determinism stick to their political position.
How can this be Black:
And this not:
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Ausar, There is really no suspicion that her grandmother was non Greek. This is how we end up on lolipop lane on this board. We don't know who her grandmother was, one way or the other. That is different that thinking she might not be Greek. There is no evidence that she was not Greek. Since every other family member was Greek it would be a reasonable assumption that she was as well.
Again one of the rare instances where I agree with the silly Hore.
After the death of Alexander the Great, his empire was split between his generals. However, it should be known that Macedonians/Greeks were still highly ethnocentric and put this together with a ruling class elite and you can understand that they were a little more than meticulous about preserving a certain "blood-line." Although there is no doubt whatsoever that these Macedonian elites had many sexual relations with the native women of the territories they ruled, it is highly unlikely that they would allow the offspring of such a union become royal heirs! Which is why the Ptolemies had the custom of marrying cousins unless a 'legitimate' spouse was provided from Macedonia or Greece itself.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again one of the rare instances where I agree with the silly Hore.After the death of Alexander the Great, his empire was split between his generals. However, it should be known that Macedonians/Greeks were still highly ethnocentric and put this together with a ruling class elite and you can understand that they were a little more than meticulous about preserving a certain "blood-line." Although there is no doubt whatsoever that these Macedonian elites had many sexual relations with the native women of the territories they ruled, it is highly unlikely that they would allow the offspring of such a union become royal heirs! Which is why the Ptolemies had the custom of marrying cousins unless a 'legitimate' spouse was provided from Macedonia or Greece itself.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 October 2005).]
Even though the Cleopatra incident is a straw man promoted to discredit ANY claims to a Black African Egypt and I do agree with Hore,
I'll play devil's advocate for a second.
We are arguing about the plausibility of Cleopatra's Grandmother not being Greek but is it not just as possible that the Ptolmaic bloodline was "miscengated" with Egyptian or Nubian blood generations down the Ptolmaic line making them noticeably partially Black generations before Cleopatra or even her Grandmother came into the picture?
I believe it is possible. But I don't believe it was likely. This link sums that situation up pretty well.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcleopatra.html
As you and all of us who know the first thing about Greek xenophobia have said Djehuti the Ptolemies came from a culture where the world was split into Greeks
and barbarians.
Mixing the blood of the Greek/Macedonian royal families with that of a non-Hellenic people was a concept on the level of blasphemy. Alexander the Great, who thought highly of the advanced cultures to the east who before his time ruled the world, tried to merge Hellenic and Persian culture into one by marrying Persian royalty and having his generals and soldiers take on Persian and Asiatic wives.
This behavior was highly unusual during Alexander's time period. It was one thing to take foriegn women as concubines, it was something entirely different to take them as wives bearing a multicultural heir (race wasn't really a working concept then culture was the main discrimination line) to the throne. Alexander's men were so opposed to his viewpoints that there were actually assassination attempts on his life, motivated by his love for foreign culture and his attempts to enforce it on his subjects.
See the movie Alexander for a dramatization of such events.
As far as what Multisphnx was saying Beanpiee looking at Egyptian art compared to its neighbors is a nice simplistic way of dealing with the "did they look White" argument. If what you wanted for this forum is opposition you aren't going to get it, they have been well beaten on this subject. If you want someone to try to convince you that the Egyptians were White so you can see the evidence for their claims go to a search engine and type in "Nordic Desert Empire".
Its a White Supremacist "history" page. They'll show you pics of "blonde" and "red" mummies. Images of Pharaohs taken at a side profile in hopes that it will look like a White nose enough to the average view. Pics of known foregeries. Images that are not even depicting Egyptians and pass it off as them and even images of execration customs such as King Tuts sandals and pass them off as depictions of racial imagery. All kinds of nonesense. There is even an refuting "Afrocentric lies" page where the author builds up straw men issues against what he calls "Black Supremacists" and attempts to knock them down in seemingly convincing but factually erroneous fashion.
Here is another look at native Egyptian royals compared to Egyptian foreigners who at one point ruled Egypt after the time of the native Pharaohs. People typically see what they want to see in artwork even in statues. Which image do you think looks most like the original Pharaohs?:
Old Kingdom
Narmer Menes First Dynastic Pharaoh
Middle Kingdom
Amenemhat III: The 6th king of the 12th Dynasty
New Kingdom
Akhnaten: "The Heretic King" 18th Dynasty
Macedonian Occupation era
Macedonian King Alexander the Great (European)
Assyrian Occupation era
Assyrian King Esarhaddon (Asiatic)
25th dynasty: Nubian Occupation era
Nubian Pharaoh Shebitku (Other African)
In my opinion the native rulers of Egypt look far more like the Nubian Pharaoh facially than they do the non-African rulers of Egypt. Ofcourse these are only 6 busts it is easy to be selective but there are plenty of other busts that can be compared. This isn't the most scientific way to approach the race debate but it is a clear refutation for those people who say the Egyptian images "Don't look Black".
quote:
Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
undeniably caucasian means that ALL busts/depictions of this person show them to be clearly caucasian.here's a pharaoh who is undeniably NOT caucasian
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 13 October 2005).]
You haven't seen Italians have you?
quote:
Originally posted by Mansa Musa:
Even though the Cleopatra incident is a straw man promoted to discredit ANY claims to a Black African Egypt and I do agree with Hore,
I'll play devil's advocate for a second.We are arguing about the plausibility of Cleopatra's Grandmother not being Greek but is it not just as possible that the Ptolmaic bloodline was "miscengated" with Egyptian or Nubian blood generations down the Ptolmaic line making them noticeably partially Black generations before Cleopatra or even her Grandmother came into the picture?
I believe it is possible. But I don't believe it was likely. This link sums that situation up pretty well.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcleopatra.htmlAs you and all of us who know the first thing about Greek xenophobia have said Djehuti the Ptolemies came from a culture where the world was split into Greeks
and barbarians.
Mixing the blood of the Greek/Macedonian royal families with that of a non-Hellenic people was a concept on the level of blasphemy. Alexander the Great, who thought highly of the advanced cultures to the east who before his time ruled the world, tried to merge Hellenic and Persian culture into one by marrying Persian royalty and having his generals and soldiers take on Persian and Asiatic wives.This behavior was highly unusual during Alexander's time period. It was one thing to take foriegn women as concubines, it was something entirely different to take them as wives bearing a multicultural heir (race wasn't really a working concept then culture was the main discrimination line) to the throne. Alexander's men were so opposed to his viewpoints that there were actually assassination attempts on his life, motivated by his love for foreign culture and his attempts to enforce it on his subjects.
See the movie Alexander for a dramatization of such events.
As far as what Multisphnx was saying Beanpiee looking at Egyptian art compared to its neighbors is a nice simplistic way of dealing with the "did they look White" argument. If what you wanted for this forum is opposition you aren't going to get it, they have been well beaten on this subject. If you want someone to try to convince you that the Egyptians were White so you can see the evidence for their claims go to a search engine and type in "Nordic Desert Empire".Its a White Supremacist "history" page. They'll show you pics of "blonde" and "red" mummies. Images of Pharaohs taken at a side profile in hopes that it will look like a White nose enough to the average view. Pics of known foregeries. Images that are not even depicting Egyptians and pass it off as them and even images of execration customs such as King Tuts sandals and pass them off as depictions of racial imagery. All kinds of nonesense. There is even an refuting "Afrocentric lies" page where the author builds up straw men issues against what he calls "Black Supremacists" and attempts to knock them down in seemingly convincing but factually erroneous fashion.
Here is another look at native Egyptian royals compared to Egyptian foreigners who at one point ruled Egypt after the time of the native Pharaohs. People typically see what they want to see in artwork even in statues. Which image do you think looks most like the original Pharaohs?:
[b]Old Kingdom
Narmer Menes First Dynastic Pharaoh
Middle Kingdom
Amenemhat III: The 6th king of the 12th Dynasty
New KingdomAkhnaten: "The Heretic King" 18th Dynasty
Macedonian Occupation era
Macedonian King Alexander the Great (European)
Assyrian Occupation era
Assyrian King Esarhaddon (Asiatic)
25th dynasty: Nubian Occupation era
Nubian Pharaoh Shebitku (Other African)
In my opinion the native rulers of Egypt look far more like the Nubian Pharaoh facially than they do the non-African rulers of Egypt. Ofcourse these are only 6 busts it is easy to be selective but there are plenty of other busts that can be compared. This isn't the most scientific way to approach the race debate but it is a clear refutation for those people who say the Egyptian images "Don't look Black".
[/B]
I didn't bring up Cleopetra being white to debunk a Black Egypt. I was simply pointing out that certain dynasties were foreign.
quote:
Originally posted by osirion:
I didn't bring up Cleopetra being white to debunk a Black Egypt. I was simply pointing out that certain dynasties were foreign.
I didn't say that you did.
quote:
Originally posted by sonomod:
You haven't seen Italians have you?
yes, actually i have. and Italian people do not look like that image i posted.
quote:
Originally posted by Pax Dahomiensis:
Ramses II anyone?
A CAUCASIAN PORTRAYED W/BROWN SKIN? SURELY, YOU JEST!
THE THICK UPPER LIP MOST CAUCASIANS HAVE. LOL!...
[This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 18 October 2005).]
[This message has been edited by beanpiee (edited 19 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by beanpiee:
CONSIDERING THE EVIDENCE, MAY WE AGREE THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE [b]NOT WHITE?IF NOT, PLEASE, PRESENT PROOF OR, BE QUIET!
We can argue over busts and pictures, from Ancient Egypt, which have been damaged and therefor impossible to tell whether they are Black or White,(certainly people whore whigs; soldiers rarely do, and not all of have been so damaged that we must question whether or not they have an afro) but microscopic analysis has been done on the remains of certain Egyptian mummies, a little while ago, I posted one of these studies and I will do so again so people can see them.
A second point to be made, would be to look, at some Modern Egyptians who have largely segregated themselves from the rest of Egypt. I am refering to Coptic Christians. Many of whom, look very, very Caucasian, and claim a less mixed ancestry than the rest of Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Delamare:
We can argue over busts and pictures, from Ancient Egypt, which have been damaged and therefor impossible to tell whether they are Black or White,(certainly people whore whigs; soldiers rarely do, and not all of have been so damaged that we must question whether or not they have an afro) but microscopic analysis has been done on the remains of certain Egyptian mummies, a little while ago, I posted one of these studies and I will do so again so people can see them.A second point to be made, would be to look, at some Modern Egyptians who have largely segregated themselves from the rest of Egypt. I am refering to Coptic Christians. Many of whom, look very, very Caucasian, and claim a less mixed ancestry than the rest of Egypt.
What does Herodotus describe Ancient Egyptians as being black-skinned? Was he color blind?
quote:
This was what I heard from the priests at Thebes; at Dodona, however, the women who deliver the oracles relate the matter as follows:- "Two black doves flew away from Egyptian Thebes, and while one directed its flight to Libya, the other came to them. She alighted on an oak, and sitting there began to speak with a human voice, and told them that on the spot where she was, there should henceforth be an oracle of Jove. They understood the announcement to be from heaven, so they set to work at once and erected the shrine. The dove which flew to Libya bade the Libyans to establish there the oracle of Ammon." This likewise is an oracle of Jupiter. The persons from whom I received these particulars were three priestesses of the Dodonaeans, the eldest Promeneia, the next Timarete, and the youngest Nicandra- what they said was confirmed by the other Dodonaeans who dwell around the temple.My own opinion of these matters is as follows:- I think that, if it be true that the Phoenicians carried off the holy women, and sold them for slaves, the one into Libya and the other into Greece, or Pelasgia (as it was then called), this last must have been sold to the Thesprotians. Afterwards, while undergoing servitude in those parts, she built under a real oak a temple to Jupiter, her thoughts in her new abode reverting- as it was likely they would do, if she had been an attendant in a temple of Jupiter at Thebes- to that particular god. Then, having acquired a knowledge of the Greek tongue, she set up an oracle. She also mentioned that her sister had been sold for a slave into Libya by the same persons as herself.
The Dodonaeans called the women doves because they were foreigners, and seemed to them to make a noise like birds. After a while the dove spoke with a human voice, because the woman, whose foreign talk had previously sounded to them like the chattering of a bird, acquired the power of speaking what they could understand. For how can it be conceived possible that a dove should really speak with the voice of a man? Lastly, by calling the dove black the Dodonaeans indicated that the woman was an Egyptian. And certainly the character of the oracles at Thebes and Dodona is very similar. Besides this form of divination, the Greeks learnt also divination by means of victims from the Egyptians.
The History of Herodotus, Book II, 55-57
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
We have their mummies tdog, we know they were not black africans. As Dr Hawass recently noted, "Ancient Egyptians were North African caucasians." This issue has been settled for decades.
Is that what you call evidence that Ancient Egyptians were Caucasian?
Wow 
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
We have their mummies tdog, we know they were not black africans. As Dr Hawass recently noted, "Ancient Egyptians were North African caucasians." This issue has been settled for decades.
Horemb who do you think will measure closer to the Ancient Egyptians in terms of bone structure and skull measurement?
North African Caucosiods
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
You are correct walk, if he says it, its probably true.
You can state that load of B.S. 100 times and it still won't make any sense.
You can state it 1000 more times and it still wouldn't.
If Brace and Keita say that the Ancient Egyptians were biologically African then they were not Caucasiods. They did not descend from a Eurasian population anywhere near the Caucus region.
Anthropologists will always have the final say on anthropology, archeologists will not.
That statement is just as true as 2+2=4.
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
You are correct walk, if he says it, its probably true.
i don't know if you are a smartass or just stupid, but i was being SARCASTIC
[This message has been edited by walklikeanegyptian (edited 20 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Horemheb:
Anthropologists do not say Egyptians were black Africans, they never have said that. Mansa , if you are an American black you have zero connection to ancient Egypt. You are being made a fool by the afrocentrics.
Modern Anthropologists do not recognize racial terms. Peer-reviewed anthropological articles have concluded that the Ancient Egyptians were a tropical African people.
A tropically adapted African = Black African
That's just the way it is. You can whine about it all you want and make a fool of yourself it will do you no good.
Your contention that being an African-American means you have "zero connection" to Ancient Egypt is false, and another devisive Eurocentric ploy.
If by "connection" you mean direct undeviated genetic descent than you'd certainly be right and I have never argued in favor of such a point.
But by the objective definition of connection you are wrong.
I have "connections" to Ancient Greece.
One such connection is the fact that my name is Greek. That right there is a connection. If I were to name my child Nefertari or Horus they would be an African-American with a connection to Ancient Egypt.
African-American culture is derived from African culture which is derived from Ancient African cultures of which Ancient Egypt is deeply rooted. So in that sense Ancient Egypt is a part of my cultural heritage because it is a civilization who's culture is rooted in the same culture that I inherited. There is evidence for post-dynastic Egyptian migration into other parts of Africa that many African-Americans could be directly descended from, myself included. There is also the matter of full genealogy which really trivializes the subject of direct descent because everyone on this forum could very well be descended from Ramses II (the man had like 100 kids) giving us all a genetic connection, however slight, to Ancient Egypt or any civilization for that matter.
Example of the wildness of full genealogy
You can whine and rant about the "Afrocentric Black radical agenda" and the "people being played as fools" all you want. You're sad song and dance is no match for the evidence.
This it seems is a hopeless endeavor with you. Your tactic is just like nearly all other cliche eurocentrist opponents to Egypt. You deny that it is "Black African" by pretending that you don't know what is considered to be Black.
If we played the opposite hand and forced you to talk about who is and was Black and why rather than who wasn't you'd simply trip over your deceit. This is evidenced by your absurd comment to Osirion by a picture of Tut "not looking that Black".
I encountered an idiot on another forum who said the same thing and then even said the same thing about the brown-skinned braid-haired Egyptian women. He was dumber than you though in that while you concede that the hair "looks African" but could be a wig when I posted a pic of a girl with similarly braided hair he went off on a tangent about how the woman was of mixed race
(she looked like a typical African-American) which had nothing to do with her hair texture and braid style. He also demanded I show him a pic of an Ancient Egyptian artifact that looks like a Zulu warrior which I posted as a caricature of what I thought he meant by Black not realizing how stupid it was to admit that all he could do to rely on the non-Blackness of Egypt was rely on caricatures of what Black Africans "should" look like.
I'm not going to waste anymore long posts on you Horemheb you have proven to be a clown who deserves nothing but ridicule. I try to be polite and take people seriously but you have lost the right to be taken seriously on this board and probably lost it a very long time ago.
quote:
We can argue over busts and pictures, from Ancient Egypt, which have been damaged and therefor impossible to tell whether they are Black or White,(certainly people whore whigs; soldiers rarely do, and not all of have been so damaged that we must question whether or not they have an afro) but microscopic analysis has been done on the remains of certain Egyptian mummies, a little while ago, I posted one of these studies and I will do so again so people can see them.A second point to be made, would be to look, at some Modern Egyptians who have largely segregated themselves from the rest of Egypt. I am refering to Coptic Christians. Many of whom, look very, very Caucasian, and claim a less mixed ancestry than the rest of Egypt
Most Coptic Christians look no different than most modern Egyptians. This is a long held myth started by British archaeologist that said modern Coptic Christians are pure direct desendants of the ancient Egyptians. However, Coptic Christians have mixed with Greeks,Armenians,and Syrians. You are also forgetting that most of the Christians in early times were mostly Jews and Greeks.
The modern Egyptians that have been the most isolated and segregated are the Fellahin and Sa'idi people. Notice also in areas like Luxor the Coptic Christians look no different from their Muslim counterparts. Copts in this area are dark-brown in apperance.
The Coptic agricultural population (fellahIn) in the villages of Upper Egypt and elsewhere are not markedly different from the Mahommedan fellahIn, who, of course, are of the same stock, but mixed with Arab blood. The Copts in the towns, who have always been engaged in sedentary occupations, as scribes and handicraftsmen, have a more delicate frame and complexion, and may have mingled with Syrian and Armenian Christians.
http://55.1911encyclopedia.org/C/CO/COPTS.htm
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 20 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:Most Coptic Christians look no different than most modern Egyptians. This is a long held myth started by British archaeologist that said modern Coptic Christians are pure direct desendants of the ancient Egyptians. However, Coptic Christians have mixed with Greeks,Armenians,and Syrians. You are also forgetting that most of the Christians in early times were mostly Jews and Greeks.
The modern Egyptians that have been the most isolated and segregated are the Fellahin and Sa'idi people. Notice also in areas like Luxor the Coptic Christians look no different from their Muslim counterparts. Copts in this area are dark-brown in apperance.The Coptic agricultural population (fellahIn) in the villages of Upper Egypt and elsewhere are not markedly different from the Mahommedan fellahIn, who, of course, are of the same stock, but mixed with Arab blood. The Copts in the towns, who have always been engaged in sedentary occupations, as scribes and handicraftsmen, have a more delicate frame and complexion, and may have mingled with Syrian and Armenian Christians.
http://55.1911encyclopedia.org/C/CO/COPTS.htm
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Originally posted by Horemheb:
We have their mummies tdog, we know they were not black africans. As Dr Hawass recently noted, "Ancient Egyptians were North African caucasians." This issue has been settled for decades.
On the contrary. Decades ago, anthropologists grouped Egyptians as being part of the 'Hamitic' race which also included Northern Sudanese (even Nubians) as well as Ethiopians and Somalians. Unfortunately these bias experts could not get around the fact that these peoples were black which is why they considered 'Hamitic' people to be essentially "extremely dark-skinned caucasoids".
However, many anthropologists of today of corrected these bias mistakes of the past and most people today in the anthropological community accept the FACT that Northeast Africans (including Egyptians) were NOT caucasoid as stated by anthropologists like: Anton et al, Zakrzewski et al, Hiernaux et al, Rightmire et al, Groves et al, Jablonsky et al, Brace et al, Angel et al, Keita et al. etc. etc. etc.
Sorry Hore, but Hawass is not an anthropologist!!
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Anthropologists do not say Egyptians were black Africans, they never have said that. Mansa , if you are an American black you have zero connection to ancient Egypt. You are being made a fool by the afrocentrics.
Again, yes they have. As far as American blacks having zero connection to ancient Egypt, As a Filipino I have zero connection to Korean civilization yet no one is denying that Koreans and Filipinos have some relation as Asians. And there are some white Americans who want to be connected with ancient Greece even though they are of northwestern Europeans descent and Greeks are southeast Europeans.
[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 20 October 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Imhemazi (edited 20 October 2005).]
Horemb how come you didn't figure out that these two didn't belong to North African Caucosiod, is it maybe because there is no such thing as caucosiod or Negriod or is it maybe that North Africans like these two guys are nothing more than 1000's years of mixing between Africans and Europeans.