quote:

---

well actually that's still the mainstream (biblical)opinion, that the Hebrew(Jews) buildt the pyramids, if not with their engineering skills atleast their labour due to enslavement.

Btw, is their any evidence that Eyptians enslaved hebrews (outside the jewish religious scripts)?

---

quote:

---

Hi
If I remember correctly Egyptians had to spend some part of the year working on public projects. It was the participation of Egyptians in public projects for part of the year that provided the labor necessary to build the pyramids

---

quote:

---

Hebrews were not originally slaves in Egypt. If we are referring to Semitic people in general then there is a long history of trade between Egyptians and Semitic cultures of Canaan and so on. Large scale slaverly was probably introduced to Egyptians by the Hysoks. The Hysok story is echoed in Jewish scripture to some extent though the Hebrews certainly are not the Hysoks like Josephus suggests. And the Jews certainly did not build the Pyramids. The Bible is very clear on where the Jews were enslaved and what they worked on.

What is interesting is that the Egyptians should have incorporated technology from the Hebrews but seemingly didn't. Technology such as the wheel and metalurgy was known to the Hebrews but perhaps not well utilized. Egyptians didn't seem to utilize such technology until the New Kingdom. They seem to be still in the stoneage when it comes to tools they utilized.


Interesting

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
What is interesting is that the Egyptians should have incorporated technology from the Hebrews but seemingly didn't. Technology such as the wheel and metalurgy was known to the Hebrews but perhaps not well utilized. Egyptians didn't seem to utilize such technology until the New Kingdom. They seem to be still in the stoneage when it comes to tools they utilized.


Interesting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
There was a program I saw on the history channel about the Exodus, and that the ancient Hebrews were a nomadic warrior people.

I will try to find the info on this, but from I remember the evidence the program presents are those of laborers who were paid to do manual work around the Delta. I forgot which period of Egyptian history it took place in, but something happened which caused the Hebrew community to leave Egypt and to do so in an uproar, for even the Bible states this the quote that "the Hebrews left Egypt boldly"-- meaning they looted and stole on their way out.

The show also states that the Hebrews were able to escape using military strategies, some of which may have been adopted from the Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

quote:

---

Hebrews were not originally slaves in Egypt. If we are referring to Semitic people in general then there is a long history of trade between Egyptians and Semitic cultures of Canaan and so on. Large scale slaverly was probably introduced to Egyptians by the Hysoks. The Hysok story is echoed in Jewish scripture to some extent though the Hebrews certainly are not the Hysoks like Josephus suggests. And the Jews certainly did not build the Pyramids. The Bible is very clear on where the Jews were enslaved and what they worked on.

What is interesting is that the Egyptians should have incorporated technology from the Hebrews but seemingly didn't. Technology such as the wheel and metalurgy was known to the Hebrews but perhaps not well utilized. Egyptians didn't seem to utilize such technology until the New Kingdom. They seem to be still in the stoneage when it comes to tools they utilized.


Interesting

---

There is some debate about how much hegemony ancient Egypt had on Caana and other areas in Western Asia. Certain regions like Byblos located in Lebanon were basically political vassal states. The same goes for many other regions in Western Asia and the Levant.

We also have evidence of possible ancient Egyptian settlement in Caanan during the pre-dyanstic era.


Your claim that Egyptians never adopted metalurgy or the wheel untill the New Kingdom is actually incorrect. Ancient Egyptians used the wheel during the Old Kingdom but only for siege towers. During the New Kingdom chariots was introducts by the Hykos. Early Egyptians actually worked cooper and bronze from a early period.

---

I am not saying that the Egyptians were not aware of metalurgy, they certainly would have known of it from the Hebrews that traded with them. But they didn't seem to utilize it like most other societies. You would think that the wheel would be of great advantage to any society and that metalurgy would replace stone tools. It just doesn't appear that these technologies took off in Egypt like they did in Eurasia and Europe. There's no sudden transition to these technologies emasse until the New Kingdom largely due to Semitic influences during the Hysok dynasty. Metal seems to have been relegated to the court rather than used as a means to produce tools for farming and architecture.

Clearly Iron was of Asiatic origins. One of the Kings of the Hittites sent Rameses II, the celebrated Pharaoh of the Nineteenth Dynasty, an iron sword and a promise of a shipment of the same metal.

Also the use of the Horse appears to be Asiatic in terms of its origin in Egyptian society.

Were not the Ziggurats built before the pyramids and weren't the first pyramid of Djoser essentially built like a Ziggurat?

Again, we know that Egypt controlled and sometimes was controlled by Canaan. We know that the people of Canaan were Semitic speaking people who in turn would have been in contact with other Asiatic cultures such as the Summerians.

It appears to me that we have a trade route and an exchange of ideas that benefit 3 separate societies. I call that cultural synergy.
 

---

Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
From a very early date the ancient Egyptians used copper tools for the purposes you mentioned. Agritcultural equipment was mainly from wood but architectural tools like adzes were made from copper. Bronze was also worked throughout ancient Egyptian society,and was not introduced by foreigners.

I mentioned earlier that the wheel during the Old Kingdom was utilized but only for siege towers. We have depictions of wheels on 5th dyansty tombs.

See the following example:







See also the following post on ancient Egyptian technology:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000018
here is a book called "Building in Egypt" 1991, with a drawing of the seige tower in there.


Another error in your post is ascribing the accomplishments to Semitic speaking people. Semitic speakers donot appear in Western Asia or Mesopotamia untill a much later period. The first such people in Mesopotamia are actually the Akkadians. The Hebrew people are a much younger people than the ancient Egyptians or surrounding cultures.

You also fail to grasp that pyramids and temples all had a type of spirtual connections to them that architecture within Mesopotamia did not have. From the mastaba and down the Mirs[Kemetic name for pyramids] were seen as vessels to where the soul of the pharaoh would travel to the sky to be with Wsir[Osiris].


BTW. The following is off-topic because there is another topic already on the board dicussion cultural diffusion.

For discussion in Cultural diffusion see the following topic:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003212
 

---

Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
From a very early date the ancient Egyptians used copper tools for the purposes you mentioned. Agritcultural equipment was mainly from wood but architectural tools like adzes were made from copper. Bronze was also worked throughout ancient Egyptian society,and was not introduced by foreigners.

I mentioned earlier that the wheel during the Old Kingdom was utilized but only for siege towers. We have depictions of wheels on 5th dyansty tombs.

See the following example:







See also the following post on ancient Egyptian technology:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000018
here is a book called "Building in Egypt" 1991, with a drawing of the seige tower in there.


Another error in your post is ascribing the accomplishments to Semitic speaking people. Semitic speakers donot appear in Western Asia or Mesopotamia untill a much later period. The first such people in Mesopotamia are actually the Akkadians. The Hebrew people are a much younger people than the ancient Egyptians or surrounding cultures.

You also fail to grasp that pyramids and temples all had a type of spirtual connections to them that architecture within Mesopotamia did not have. From the mastaba and down the Mirs[Kemetic name for pyramids] were seen as vessels to where the soul of the pharaoh would travel to the sky to be with Wsir[Osiris].


BTW. The following is off-topic because there is another topic already on the board dicussion cultural diffusion.

For discussion in Cultural diffusion see the following topic:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003212

---

Approximately 40% of Jewish males are haplogroup J. This compares quite well with Middle Eastern
populations. The J haplogroup is quite old. I have seen reports that say modern day Egyptians are 30% J. J is of Asiatic origins unlike E3b (PN2).

Essentially if we go beyond the language phylum of the Semitic people and talk about their origins, we seem to have Mesopatamia as the most likely candidate before these people became nomdic. My understanding is that Hebrew actually means nomadic.

The people who built Jericho were a mixture of E3b and J. Jericho was one of the first agricultural cities. Again, its proximity to Egypt and the potential of trade cannot be excluded.

As for the Ziggurats in Mesopatamia. I absolutely agree that they were built for differing purposes from the Egyptian pyramids. These are cultural differences. What I was referring to is some of the technological similarities. Not that there are not differences there as well and quite a few. Information could have exchanged that would have had a synergistic affect for both cultures.

As for copper tools in Egypt. Yes, I can't imagine that there weren't but I have just not seen any documentation talking about the use of metal for this purpose in large amounts. Can you help me out on that? Everything I have read suggest that the Egyptians were primarily stoneage with metal used for religious purposes and such.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 

The fact of 5th dynasty pictorial documentation for metallurgy makes it
impossible to be a Hebrew introduced innovation, period. The Hebrews
in KM.t date completely within the 18th dynasty.

The Israelites' own history states that they became a
people or nation in Egypt. Before living in Egypt they
were only an extended family. Their stay in Egypt was
for 210 years. There, after immigrating as transhumant
pastoralists, they learned the arts of cosmopolitan
civilization. All this is according to their book B*reshiyth.


As for metal architectural tools

quote:

---

Dieter Arnold writes:

Egyptian metal tools consisted of essentially
unalloyed copper, arsenical copper, tin bronze,
and leaded tin bronze. A very high iron
content is found occasionally and suggests that
the tools were made from unrefined metal.

...The question that must be considered, then,
is to what extent metal chisels were used in
comparison with stone tools.

Metal chisels were used for stoneworking, and
many have been found. It seems not coincidental
that the number of preserved metal chisels
increases with the beginnings of monumental
stone building in the Third Dynasty. Copper
chisels (perhaps models) from tombs are known
since the First Dynasty. We have to suppose
that they were used for woodworking. Some of the
chisels from the Third Dynasty were certainly
used for dressing stone, especially those from
the Djoser precinct.

The two main types used for dressing stone were
the round bar chisel and the flat mortise chisel
Both are represented by dozens of specimens,
ranging from the reign of Djoser to the New
Kingdom.
. . .
From Petrie's rich collection, we learn about
the existence of many more chisel types. Most
of them, however, were certainly not used for
the production of building stones but for
sculpting or for woodworking.
. . .
Such chisels were used for cutting small and
deep mortises and holes or areas difficult to
reach. Mortise chisels could also have been used
by carpenters.

Building in Egypt; Pharaonic Stone Masonry
New York and Oxford 1991

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I am not saying that the Egyptians were not aware of metalurgy, they certainly would have known of it from the Hebrews that traded with them.
. . . .
Metal seems to have been relegated to the court rather than used as a means to produce tools for farming and architecture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
The fact of 5th dynasty pictorial documentation for metallurgy makes it
impossible to be a Hebrew introduced innovation, period. The Hebrews
in KM.t date completely within the 18th dynasty.

The Israelites' own history states that they became a
people or nation in Egypt. Before living in Egypt they
were only an extended family. Their stay in Egypt was
for 210 years. There, after immigrating as transhumant
pastoralists, they learned the arts of cosmopolitan
civilization. All this is according to their book B*reshiyth.


As for metal archetectural tools

quote:

---

Dieter Arnold writes:

[qi]Egyptian metal tools27 consisted of essentially
unalloyed copper, arsenical copper, tin bronze,
and leaded tin bronze.28 A very high iron
content is found occasionally and suggests that
the tools were made from unrefined metal.

...The question that must be considered, then,
is to what extent metal chisels were used in
comparison with stone tools.

Metal chisels were used for stoneworking, and
many have been found. It seems not coincidental
that the number of preserved metal chisels
increases with the beginnings of monumental
stone building in the Third Dynasty. Copper
chisels (perhaps models) from tombs are known
since the First Dynasty.33 We have to suppose
that they were used for woodworking. Some of the
chisels from the Third Dynasty were certainly
used for dressing stone, especially those from
the Djoser precinct.

The two main types used for dressing stone were
the round bar chisel (Petrie's type D) (fig.
6.10) and the flat mortise chisel (Petrie's type
B) (fig. 6.11). Both are represented by dozens
of specimens, ranging from the reign of Djoser
to the New Kingdom.
. . .
From Petrie's rich collection, we learn about
the existence of many more chisel types.34 Most
of them, however, were certainly not used for
the production of building stones but for
sculpting or for woodworking.
. . .
Such chisels were used for cutting small and
deep mortises and holes or areas difficult to
reach. Mortise chisels could also have been used
by carpenters. [/qi]

Building in Egypt; Pharaonic Stone Masonry
New York and Oxford 1991

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I am not saying that the Egyptians were not aware of metalurgy, they certainly would have known of it from the Hebrews that traded with them.
. . . .
Metal seems to have been relegated to the court rather than used as a means to produce tools for farming and architecture.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Didn't mean to imply that Egyptians learned of metalurgy from Hebrews. I am saying they certainly would have if they didn't already know about it. They certainly did know about it before the mythical Abrahamic time period.

They just didn't seem to use it as much as you would expect for such an advance society.

When referring to Hebrews in ancient time I am normally talking about the J haplogroup. Most people think I am referring to the Jewish religion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
There was a program I saw on the history channel about the Exodus, and that the ancient Hebrews were a nomadic warrior people.

I will try to find the info on this, but from I remember the evidence the program presents are those of laborers who were paid to do manual work around the Delta. I forgot which period of Egyptian history it took place in, but something happened which caused the Hebrew community to leave Egypt and to do so in an uproar, for even the Bible states this the quote that "the Hebrews left Egypt boldly"-- meaning they looted and stole on their way out.

The show also states that the Hebrews were able to escape using military strategies, some of which may have been adopted from the Egyptians.

---

I got the dvd from the library,it's called rameses wrath of god or man.
i just saw today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I am not saying that the Egyptians were not aware of metalurgy, they certainly would have known of it from the Hebrews that traded with them...

---

You seriously can't be contributing the Egyptians' use of metalurgy to Hebrews!!

quote:

---

But they didn't seem to utilize it like most other societies. You would think that the wheel would be of great advantage to any society and that metalurgy would replace stone tools. It just doesn't appear that these technologies took off in Egypt like they did in Eurasia and Europe. There's no sudden transition to these technologies emasse until the New Kingdom largely due to Semitic influences during the Hysok dynasty. Metal seems to have been relegated to the court rather than used as a means to produce tools for farming and architecture.

---

quote:

---

Clearly Iron was of Asiatic origins. One of the Kings of the Hittites sent Rameses II, the celebrated Pharaoh of the Nineteenth Dynasty, an iron sword and a promise of a shipment of the same metal.

---

quote:

---

Also the use of the Horse appears to be Asiatic in terms of its origin in Egyptian society.

---

quote:

---

Were not the Ziggurats built before the pyramids and weren't the first pyramid of Djoser essentially built like a Ziggurat?

---

quote:

---

Again, we know that Egypt controlled and sometimes was controlled by Canaan. We know that the people of Canaan were Semitic speaking people who in turn would have been in contact with other Asiatic cultures such as the Summerians.

---

quote:

---

It appears to me that we have a trade route and an exchange of ideas that benefit 3 separate societies. I call that cultural synergy.

---

quote:

---

Again, we know that Egypt controlled and sometimes was controlled by Canaan. We know that the people of Canaan were Semitic speaking people who in turn would have been in contact with other Asiatic cultures such as the Summerians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

---

Again, we know that Egypt controlled and sometimes was controlled by Canaan. We know that the people of Canaan were Semitic speaking people who in turn would have been in contact with other Asiatic cultures such as the Summerians.

---

I am aware of Egyptian control extending into Canaan, but I don't recall Canaanites controlling Egypt. What do you mean by "Canaan" here...it doesn't have to do with the Hyksos, or the Persians, does it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Hyksos were either from Canaan or Syria as far as documents I have read. Certainly Semitic people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I am not saying that the Egyptians were not aware of metalurgy, they certainly would have known of it from the Hebrews that traded with them...

---

You seriously can't be contributing the Egyptians' use of metalurgy to Hebrews!!

quote:

---

But they didn't seem to utilize it like most other societies. You would think that the wheel would be of great advantage to any society and that metalurgy would replace stone tools. It just doesn't appear that these technologies took off in Egypt like they did in Eurasia and Europe. There's no sudden transition to these technologies emasse until the New Kingdom largely due to Semitic influences during the Hysok dynasty. Metal seems to have been relegated to the court rather than used as a means to produce tools for farming and architecture.

---

Osrion, you seriously need to read up on Egyptian technology! Egyptians have been using metal as early as the Near-East. Their first use of metal was with copper and that took place around the 4th millenium BC. You don't really think all the early monuments in the Old Kingdom were built by Stone Age technology, from the pyramids to the Great Sphinx??!!

quote:

---

Clearly Iron was of Asiatic origins. One of the Kings of the Hittites sent Rameses II, the celebrated Pharaoh of the Nineteenth Dynasty, an iron sword and a promise of a shipment of the same metal.

---

Yes Iron was introduced by the Assyrians, but again the Egyptians have been using the weaker metals like copper and bronze long before the introduction of iron and way before the Hyksos period or any other Asiat 'influence'.

quote:

---

Also the use of the Horse appears to be Asiatic in terms of its origin in Egyptian society.

---

This part is true. The horse might have originally come from Central Asia, where it was introduced to Western Asia probably by Indo-European speakers.

quote:

---

Were not the Ziggurats built before the pyramids and weren't the first pyramid of Djoser essentially built like a Ziggurat?

---

I am not sure about the exact date of the ziggurat, but the pyramids were definitely of indigenous ingenuity and were NOT the result of foreign ideas.

quote:

---

Again, we know that Egypt controlled and sometimes was controlled by Canaan. We know that the people of Canaan were Semitic speaking people who in turn would have been in contact with other Asiatic cultures such as the Summerians.

---

Your point?

quote:

---

It appears to me that we have a trade route and an exchange of ideas that benefit 3 separate societies. I call that cultural synergy.

---

Yes, but the kind YOU speak of where much of Egyptian innovations including their use of metal came from Asiatics!!!

---

Read more into the thread. I didn't mean to suggest that metalurgy came from the Hebrews. Never thought that. I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't utilize it as much as other advance societies.

I am also not saying that Pyramid technology comes from Asiatics either. However, perhaps there's inspirational connections. Obviously the Egyptians mastered the monumental building and eclipses the Summerian civilization. Hard for me to ignore that there might be a connection especially considering the J haplogroup marker presence amongst Egyptians. Is this really of recent origins?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
A fuller view of the wheeled device depicted in Kaemheset's tomb appears
to be a builder's caffold rather than a war machine. Note the men on
it have contractor's tools not weapons. Also nothing going on on the
four floors inside the building remotely suggest a siege is happening,

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

I mentioned earlier that the wheel during the Old Kingdom was utilized but only for siege towers. We have depictions of wheels on 5th dyansty tombs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Hyksos were either from Canaan or Syria as far as documents I have read. Certainly Semitic people.

---

Even if the Hyksos were from "Canaan", it wasn't "Canaan" that controlled Egypt. Do you see the difference!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
A fuller view of the wheeled device depicted in Kaemheset's tomb appears
to be a builder's caffold rather than a war machine. Note the men on
it have contractor's tools not weapons. Also nothing going on on the
four floors inside the building remotely suggest a siege is happening,

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

I mentioned earlier that the wheel during the Old Kingdom was utilized but only for siege towers. We have depictions of wheels on 5th dyansty tombs.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

Be careful now. I have a hard time imagining these Canaanites invading Egypt, taking over the Delta and not leaving the gate wide open for other Semitic people to simply migrate into Egypt at will. In fact, is this not how the Jews got into Egypt in the first place according to our tradition? So we have people who not only controlled Egypt but certainly controlled cities in Canaan. I think that is sufficient to say that if they were Canaanites and they invaded Egypt and then allowed of further emigration from Canaan into Egypt that we have a situation where Canaan (or whatever the nation was referred as), had political control of Egypt.

But then we are splitting hairs and I rather not do that. Lets just say that Semitic people probably originating from Canaan took control over Egypt. Special note, they did so with technology that they gleemed from the Sumerian or Babylonians (not sure who controlled the fertile crescent at that time - probably the Babylonians).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't utilize it as much as other advance societies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Osirion

It's getting hard to take your various "Hebrew" hypotheses
seriously. You aren't backing them with any credible evidence,
references, or sources. Failing that, you haven't even succintly
posited your hypotheses in all detail, i.e., complete description.

Do you have a criterial frame of reference for your statement

"I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't
utilize it as much as other advance societies."

or do you need more time to compile one?

When you say "didn't seem to use it as much as you would expect" it
looks like you didn't see the uses Arnold(1991) showed or you have
usage criterion needing further elucidation. Please list criteria
and show which "advanced societies" implemented them and when.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't utilize it as much as other advance societies.

---

---

quote:

---

osirion:
So what were those goods in the Delta that slowly infirltrated into Egyptian culture?

---

quote:

---

osirion:
Would these people of Canaan not be J type and therefore proto-Semitic people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Osirion


Do you have a criterial frame of reference for your statement

"I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't
utilize it as much as other advance societies."

or do you need more time to compile one?

[u]Please list criteria
and show which "advanced societies" implemented them and when.[/u]

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't utilize it as much as other advance societies.

---

---

... all we have in terms of metal tools are a [u]few[/u] saws and chisels and [u]very few[/u] pictures actually depicting the use of these tools? [u]The Nile Valley should be littered with various metal tools if that is what they used commonly[/u].

More often than not the Egyptians used sand, wooden pegs, igneous rock and water. Copper was [u]probably[/u] used but mostly for wood work. Plenty of theories about this stuff and none of them very conclusive. Bronze came into play but much later. I don't even want to talk about Iron. Not sure but didn't West Africans develop the use of iron well in advance of the Egyptians?

Still don't hear how we account for 30% of haplotype J amongst Egyptians when we know this is of Asiatic origins.

Here is an interesting reference to Egyptian history in regards to cultural influence from Canaan:

http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/publications/pdfs/egypt/divided/b-Sum-Outline.pdf


Protodynastic Period
(ca. 3300Ð3100 B.C.)
---------------------
Lower Egypt increasingly infiltrated by Upper Egyptian culture,probably through trade that also included goods from Canaan. Rich cultural influences also from western Asia. Political unity achieved gradually by the spread of a uniform material culture and a series of conflicts rather than by one single conquest.


So what were those goods in the Delta that slowly infirltrated into Egyptian culture? Would these people of Canaan not be J type and therefore proto-Semitic people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
OK, I was hoping for some evidence, documentation, or original post clearly
delineating your position, even allowing you time to defer for well thought
response but you just rehash the same suppositions while all factual
presentation counter to your hypotheses is transparently not acknowledged.

I draw an unfavorable conclusion that will remain so until you point
by point address the facts opposing your novel set of hypotheses.

Shalom geyresh

.

.

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Osirion


Do you have a criterial frame of reference for your statement

"I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't
utilize it as much as other advance societies."

or do you need more time to compile one?

[u]Please list criteria
and show which "advanced societies" implemented them and when.[/u]

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

I think it is interesting that Egyptians didn't utilize it as much as other advance societies.

---

---

... all we have in terms of metal tools are a [u]few[/u] saws and chisels and [u]very few[/u] pictures actually depicting the use of these tools? [u]The Nile Valley should be littered with various metal tools if that is what they used commonly[/u].

More often than not the Egyptians used sand, wooden pegs, igneous rock and water. Copper was [u]probably[/u] used but mostly for wood work. Plenty of theories about this stuff and none of them very conclusive. Bronze came into play but much later. I don't even want to talk about Iron. Not sure but didn't West Africans develop the use of iron well in advance of the Egyptians?

Still don't hear how we account for 30% of haplotype J amongst Egyptians when we know this is of Asiatic origins.

Here is an interesting reference to Egyptian history in regards to cultural influence from Canaan:

http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/publications/pdfs/egypt/divided/b-Sum-Outline.pdf


Protodynastic Period
(ca. 3300Ð3100 B.C.)
---------------------
Lower Egypt increasingly infiltrated by Upper Egyptian culture,probably through trade that also included goods from Canaan. Rich cultural influences also from western Asia. Political unity achieved gradually by the spread of a uniform material culture and a series of conflicts rather than by one single conquest.


So what were those goods in the Delta that slowly infirltrated into Egyptian culture? Would these people of Canaan not be J type and therefore proto-Semitic people?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
The Hebrews really do seem to be affiliated with the Hyksos somehow.

If not, then they were apparently such 'small players' in Km.t history, so as to go virtually unmentioned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
The Hebrews really do seem to be affiliated with the Hyksos somehow.

If not, then they were apparently such 'small players' in Km.t history, so as to go virtually unmentioned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

Be careful now. I have a hard time imagining these Canaanites invading Egypt, taking over the Delta and not leaving the gate wide open for other Semitic people to simply migrate into Egypt at will. In fact, is this not how the Jews got into Egypt in the first place according to our tradition? So we have people who not only controlled Egypt but certainly controlled cities in Canaan. I think that is sufficient to say that if they were Canaanites and they invaded Egypt and then allowed of further emigration from Canaan into Egypt that we have a situation where Canaan (or whatever the nation was referred as), had political control of Egypt.

But then we are splitting hairs and I rather not do that. Lets just say that Semitic people probably originating from Canaan took control over Egypt. Special note, they did so with technology that they gleemed from the Sumerian or Babylonians (not sure who controlled the fertile crescent at that time - probably the Babylonians).

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What evidence do you have which suggests that the Hyksos came through military force as an initiative of a "state" in Canaan, rather than coming in as immigrants, assimilating into the society first, and then slowly making their way to elite sections of the society?

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
If the Hebrews are those who left KM.t in 1313 BCE, as they report it,
after being there for 210 years, per their reckoning then their Hyksos
affiliation is tenuous.

In the Hebrew account found in B*reshiyth, Yoseph encounters Kmtyw
smugness against his ethnicity typically displayed to the Aamu. If
he was in Hyksos ruled KM.t, fellow Aamu would hardly have put on
anti-Aamu airs with him.

In the Kmty record neither Cheremon nor Manetho make Hyksos out of
the leper expellees. They rather state the expellees recruited Hyksos
descendants already living in the Levant to come and assist them.

Then there's Merneptah's "Israel" stela. Doesn't say much except that
Merenptah anihilated a beduin group with a name very similar if not
identical to the Semitic word YSR'L. And the Hebrews do have a
recollection of a fragment of a tribe leaving KM.t a generation before
the Exodus. They say that tribal fragment was wiped out. Later Judaean
commentary suggests the reason the Exodus wended through Sinai was to
avoid the disheartenment of seeing the remains of that decimated host.

There are later Kmty toponymic references to southern Judaean peoples
and a notice of commissarying clans from Edom, a twin brother kinfolk
to the Israelites and thus technically Hebrews too.

But its as you say. Outside of the Hebrew's Joseph saga there's no
historical evidence of any but a minor passive role for Hebrews in
regard to KM.t where they were virtually unnoticed outside of one
incident.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
The Hebrews really do seem to be affiliated with the Hyksos somehow.

If not, then they were apparently such 'small players' in Km.t history, so as to go virtually unmentioned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
The Hebrews really do seem to be affiliated with the Hyksos somehow.

If not, then they were apparently such 'small players' in Km.t history, so as to go virtually unmentioned.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
I can give you references if that's what you mean. What you are suggesting is actually appealing to me. What do you have to support the suggestion you are making?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
I can give you references if that's what you mean. What you are suggesting is actually appealing to me. What do you have to support the suggestion you are making?

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You are the one who is making an 'out-of-ordinary' claim about how the Hyksos came into the region, and so, where is the evidence?

I present an earlier post of mine, on this issue...

From Manetho's list, Egyptologists relate the 13th and 17th dynasties to the Theban kings, while the 15th and 16th Dynasties are associated with the Hyksos. The 14th dynasty could have been contemporaneous with the 13th dynasty, and could have either belonged to a line of native Kings or Hyksos. This seems to be a rather chaotic period of dynastic Egypt, and it appears to be reflected in available Kings lists. The Hyksos period is therefore not called the 'dark' period for nothing.


The relative uncertainity about 14th dynasty, based in the Xois city of the north, may well be due to the possibility that, around this time, its local line of rulers were probably under some degree of Hyksos influence or authority, like vassaldom. And as far as the 16th dynasty is concerned, absence of archeological evidence in support of a line of kings belonging to the Hyksos, makes its existence rather questionable.


It should be examined how the Hyksos might have come into the country, because it appears that the Egyptians had a fortified eastern border, with troop presence. So any influx into the nation would have been checked. It seems probable that Egyptians themselves allowed some infiltration of Asiatics into the Delta, possibly for trade reasons:

Hyksos rule of Egypt was probably the climax of waves of Asiatic immigration and infiltration into the northeastern Delta of the Nile. This process was perhaps aided by the Egyptians themselves. For example, Amenemhat II records, in unmistakable language, a campaign by sea to the Lebanese coast that resulted in a list of booty comprising 1,554 Asiatics, and considering that Egypt's eastern border was fortified and probably patrolled by soldiers, it is difficult to understand how massive numbers of foreign people could have simply migrated into northern Egypt. These people migrated, or otherwise moved to the region from the 12th Dynasty onward, and by the 13th Dynasty, this migration became widespread...


...One hypothesis is that the basic population of Egyptians allowed, from time to time, a new influx of settlers, first from the region of Lebanon and Syria, and subsequently from Palestine and Cyprus.


The leaders of these people eventually married into the local Egyptian families, a theory that is somewhat supported by preliminary studies of human remains at Tell el-Dab'a. Indeed, parallels for the foreign traits of the Hyksos at Tell el-Dab'a have been found at southern Palestinian sites such as Tell el-Ajjul, at the Syrian site of Ebla and at Byblos in modern Labanon. - TourEgypt.Net


At any rate, it appears that ambitious leaders among these immigrants, were aided in their adventure, in part due to new imported military concepts they came with, and on the other hand, the existing political weakness during the late 13th dynasty. They subsequently (in late 18th century B.C.) were able to make their capital at Avaris, and then Memphis, 50 years later or so. It should be noted however, that the expansion of Hyksos rule towards upper Egypt was slow paced, and they were never able to adequately rule upper Egypt.


As a matter of fact, no clear chronological line demarcates the 13th dynasty from the 17th dynasty, both of which appeared to have been running in Upper Egypt, during the Hyksos period. Some Egyptologists have been tempted to further subdivide these two dynasties into a number of dynasties, under the suspicion that some of the kings in these dynasties formed an independent political entity from their immediate predecessor, particularly the last few kings of the 17th dynasty.


It is generally accepted that Kamose, the Theban King, took the initiative of launching a war of liberation to drive out the Hyksos. The subsequent victory was completed under Ahmose's watch, with the re-unification of Egypt, and bringing the Theban authority to the fore again.


Prior to Ahmose's re-unification of Egypt, Nebhepetre's (Menthotpe II) moving of the capital to Thebes upon victory over Herakleopolis, left a lasting impact on the minds of Egyptians. Evidence of this, is a temple inscription, dating to the 19th dynasty, bringing together the names of three kings; Menes, Nebhepetre (Menthotpe II) and Ahmose. According to William C. Hayes, these folks were "obviously" regarded "as the founders of the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms". It appears from this, that in the 19th dynasty, Egyptians viewed national history in terms of these three epochs, each marked by unification of the nation by a Pharaoh, after political upheaval. This probably explains the confusion expressed in the following article:


Archeologists have found the tomb of pharaoh Nubkeperre Inyotef with the aid
of a papyrus document that could help find more royal tombs

Cairo, July 01, 2001 (AFP/Agence France Presse) - Archeologists have discovered the tomb of an Egyptian pharaoh with the aid of a papyrus document they now realize could help them find more royal tombs, antiquities officials have said. A German working on the west bank of the Nile near present-day Luxor found the tomb of Nubkeperre Inyotef, who is believed to have started the war of liberation against Hyksos invaders around 3,500 years ago, they said.

"Historically speaking, it is a very exciting find," the secretary general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, Gaballah Ali Gaballah, said when asked to comment on a German news report of the find. "It validates the information on the papyrus document," he said.Nubkeperre Inyotef's tomb was mentioned in the so-called Abbot Papyrus, a 20th dynasty document now in the British Museum which detailed royal tombs that were pillaged in a period of anarchy under that dynasty, he said...

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=002109#000000

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
Out of ordinary claims? My understanding is strictly from what I have read.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Didn't mean to imply that Egyptians learned of metalurgy from Hebrews. I am saying they certainly would have if they didn't already know about it. They certainly did know about it before the mythical Abrahamic time period.

They just didn't seem to use it as much as you would expect for such an advance society.

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quote:

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When referring to Hebrews in ancient time I am normally talking about the J haplogroup. Most people think I am referring to the Jewish religion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
Out of ordinary claims? My understanding is strictly from what I have read.

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When I say 'out-of-ordinary', what I mean by this, is that there is no evidence of the Hyksos rule being the culmination of some outright military initiative of a 'state' or 'empire' in Canaan, at least not that I am aware of. However, if you can provide substantiation [with evidence of course] to the contrary, I will be willing to analyze the specifics provided therein.

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The Hyksos made an alliance with the Nubians. This imagery of Egypts hatred for the Hyksos Asiatics and Nubians clearly demonstrates the New Kingdom's aggressive policy of imperialism.




In review of the story of Moses this is an interesting correlation. An alliance between Asiatics and Nubians that when crushed brings about the New Kingdom which starts a policy of aggressive imperialism which results in enslavement of the Hebrew people.

Furthermore, such a reprisal against the Hyksos may have been due to the aggressive military control that the Hyksos used to maintain their dominance over the native Egyptian people. When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons, horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians. The result may have been that the Hyksos were a minority in the Egyptian nation but due to technological advantage was able to maintain control over the populace. Though like during Ptolemic times, the Hyksos colonial lords adopted Egyptian culture like the Greeks did, they were still despised. Considering this evidence, the Hyksos may not have used military power to gain dominance in Egypt but they certainly used it to maintain such dominance. That dominance included the use of Nubians to maintain the subjugation of the native Egyptians.

Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Didn't mean to imply that Egyptians learned of metalurgy from Hebrews. I am saying they certainly would have if they didn't already know about it. They certainly did know about it before the mythical Abrahamic time period.

They just didn't seem to use it as much as you would expect for such an advance society.

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So you actually think that metal usage in ancient Egypt was not extensive and that the Egyptians built things from mudbrick houses to gigantic granite monuments with stone age tools alone??

quote:

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When referring to Hebrews in ancient time I am normally talking about the J haplogroup. Most people think I am referring to the Jewish religion.

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Again I ask, how you assign this haplogroup to Jews all of a sudden when such a clade is not specific to them and was around long before 'Jews' ever existed??

This is like me calling E3b1 haplogroup 'Somali' even though this haplogroup is also predominant among the Borana, and that this haplogroup was carried by the ancestors of both groups before either ever existed!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Didn't mean to imply that Egyptians learned of metalurgy from Hebrews. I am saying they certainly would have if they didn't already know about it. They certainly did know about it before the mythical Abrahamic time period.

They just didn't seem to use it as much as you would expect for such an advance society.

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So you actually think that metal usage in ancient Egypt was not extensive and that the Egyptians built things from mudbrick houses to gigantic granite monuments with stone age tools alone??

quote:

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When referring to Hebrews in ancient time I am normally talking about the J haplogroup. Most people think I am referring to the Jewish religion.

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Again I ask, how you assign this haplogroup to Jews all of a sudden when such a clade is not specific to them and was around long before 'Jews' ever existed??

This is like me calling E3b1 haplogroup 'Somali' even though this haplogroup is also predominant among the Borana, and that this haplogroup was carried by the ancestors of both groups before either ever existed!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by yazid904:
That 40% of Jews with the J haplotype, where was that sample taken? Europe or the Fertile Crescent? All slaves everywhere were under the whim of the master and not isolated communities, henceforth there were of various admixtures and that will show up in genotying.

In Israel, this is possible (40% J) only because the Askenazi have marginalized the Separad/Jews from Middle Eastern background. What percentage of American Jews show this J haplotype?

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
The Hyksos made an alliance with the Nubians. This imagery of Egypts hatred for the Hyksos Asiatics and Nubians clearly demonstrates the New Kingdom's aggressive policy of imperialism.

---

quote:

---

In review of the story of Moses this is an interesting correlation. An alliance between Asiatics and Nubians that when crushed brings about the New Kingdom which starts a policy of aggressive imperialism which results in enslavement of the Hebrew people.

---

quote:

---

Furthermore, such a reprisal against the Hyksos may have been due to the aggressive military control that the Hyksos used to maintain their dominance over the native Egyptian people. When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons, horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians. The result may have been that the Hyksos were a minority in the Egyptian nation but due to technological advantage was able to maintain control over the populace. Though like during Ptolemic times, the Hyksos colonial lords adopted Egyptian culture like the Greeks did, they were still despised. Considering this evidence, the Hyksos may not have used military power to gain dominance in Egypt but they certainly used it to maintain such dominance. That dominance included the use of Nubians to maintain the subjugation of the native Egyptians.

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You have already been told that metalurgy, specifically copper was already used by the Egyptians since the beginning of the dynastic age. Why are you still talking about Hyksos introducing copper weapons?!

The only new and useful technology the Hyksos introduced which the Egyptians adopted was the horse and chariot and the composite bow.

quote:

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Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.

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quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

M. F. Hammer, A. J. Redd, et al. (2000) Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes . Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 97, Issue 12, 6769-6774, June 6, 2000

Hammer et al. (2000) published an exploratory paper with this conclusion "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."

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Again, we know J is Middle Eastern, but it's very fool-hardy and may I say a little foolish in describing the whole clade as being 'Jewish'.

Mind you there are many peoples in the Middle East today who carry J, even J2 but would probably kill anyone who called them 'Jews'!!

Seriously, your 'Hebrew-centrism' is getting the better of you! You are beginning to sound like Kenndo in his rants about Nubia or worse yet, like Lion or Mr. Winters in their rants about black Africans around the world!!
 

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Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:

M. F. Hammer, A. J. Redd, et al. (2000) Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes . Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 97, Issue 12, 6769-6774, June 6, 2000

Hammer et al. (2000) published an exploratory paper with this conclusion "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."

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Again, we know J is Middle Eastern, but it's very fool-hardy and may I say a little foolish in describing the whole clade as being 'Jewish'.

Mind you there are many peoples in the Middle East today who carry J, even J2 but would probably kill anyone who called them 'Jews'!!

Seriously, your 'Hebrew-centrism' is getting the better of you! You are beginning to sound like Kenndo in his rants about Nubia or worse yet, like Lion or Mr. Winters in their rants about black Africans around the world!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
The Hyksos made an alliance with the Nubians. This imagery of Egypts hatred for the Hyksos Asiatics and Nubians clearly demonstrates the New Kingdom's aggressive policy of imperialism.

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Both Asiatics and Kushites threatened Egyptian hegemony in the Nile Valley, not to mention the nation-state itself so of course the Egyptians during the New Kingdom had aggressive foreign policies!

quote:

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In review of the story of Moses this is an interesting correlation. An alliance between Asiatics and Nubians that when crushed brings about the New Kingdom which starts a policy of aggressive imperialism which results in enslavement of the Hebrew people.

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Perhaps, but many Asiatics were enslaved regardless of whether they were Hebrew or not.

quote:

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Furthermore, such a reprisal against the Hyksos may have been due to the aggressive military control that the Hyksos used to maintain their dominance over the native Egyptian people. When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons, horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians. The result may have been that the Hyksos were a minority in the Egyptian nation but due to technological advantage was able to maintain control over the populace. Though like during Ptolemic times, the Hyksos colonial lords adopted Egyptian culture like the Greeks did, they were still despised. Considering this evidence, the Hyksos may not have used military power to gain dominance in Egypt but they certainly used it to maintain such dominance. That dominance included the use of Nubians to maintain the subjugation of the native Egyptians.

---

You have already been told that metalurgy, specifically copper was already used by the Egyptians since the beginning of the dynastic age. Why are you still talking about Hyksos introducing copper weapons?!

The only new and useful technology the Hyksos introduced which the Egyptians adopted was the horse and chariot and the composite bow.

quote:

---

Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.

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Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
The Hyksos made an alliance with the Nubians. This imagery of Egypts hatred for the Hyksos Asiatics and Nubians clearly demonstrates the New Kingdom's aggressive policy of imperialism.

---

Both Asiatics and Kushites threatened Egyptian hegemony in the Nile Valley, not to mention the nation-state itself so of course the Egyptians during the New Kingdom had aggressive foreign policies!

quote:

---

In review of the story of Moses this is an interesting correlation. An alliance between Asiatics and Nubians that when crushed brings about the New Kingdom which starts a policy of aggressive imperialism which results in enslavement of the Hebrew people.

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Perhaps, but many Asiatics were enslaved regardless of whether they were Hebrew or not.

quote:

---

Furthermore, such a reprisal against the Hyksos may have been due to the aggressive military control that the Hyksos used to maintain their dominance over the native Egyptian people. When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons, horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians. The result may have been that the Hyksos were a minority in the Egyptian nation but due to technological advantage was able to maintain control over the populace. Though like during Ptolemic times, the Hyksos colonial lords adopted Egyptian culture like the Greeks did, they were still despised. Considering this evidence, the Hyksos may not have used military power to gain dominance in Egypt but they certainly used it to maintain such dominance. That dominance included the use of Nubians to maintain the subjugation of the native Egyptians.

---

You have already been told that metalurgy, specifically copper was already used by the Egyptians since the beginning of the dynastic age. Why are you still talking about Hyksos introducing copper weapons?!

The only new and useful technology the Hyksos introduced which the Egyptians adopted was the horse and chariot and the composite bow.

quote:

---

Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.

---

Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.

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Huh??? The Biblical verse I gave you is directly from the King James Bible.

Number 12:1

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman

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quote:

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Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

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With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.

Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian.
Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE

As the Middle Kingdom went into decline, groups of Asiatics appear to have migrated into the Delta and established settlements. The Second Intermediate Period began with the establishment of the 15th Dynasty at Avaris ( TeLL EL-Dabaa ) in the Delta. The 15th Dynasty rulers were largely contemporary with the line of minor Hyksos rulers who comprise the 16th Dynasty. The precise dates of these two dynasties, and more particularly their rulers, are uncertain, as are those of the 17th Dynasty, the last of the period. The 17th Dynasty ruled from Thebes, effectively acting as the "native" Egyptian government, as opposed to the foreign northern rulers.

Having established their capital at Avaris, the political influence of the hyksos appears to have gradually spread, with the development of centres such as TELL EL-YAHUDiYA and TELL EL-MASKHUTA, and the probable seizure of the important Egyptian city f Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad adn Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean. Seals at the Nubian site of KERMA bear the name SHESHI, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest know Hyksos king. The presence of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them to counter the oppos- ition of the 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt. THe last rulers of the 17 Dynasty, SEQENENRA TAA II and KAMOSE campaigned openly against the hyksos, and Ahmose I, the first ruler of the 18th Dynasty, was eventually able to drive them from power, thus establishing the New Kingdom.

Hyksos : ( Egyptian heka khaswt : 'rulers of foreign lands' )
Term used to refer to a palestinian group ( or perhaps only there rulers ) who migrated to Egypt during the late Middle Kingdom ( c. 1800 - 1650 BC ) and rose to power in in Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period ( 1650 - 1550 BC ) . It used to be assumed that the Hyksos conquered Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty, but it's now recognized that the process was probably far more gradual and peaceful; according to donald redford, 'it's not unreasonable to assume that with the gradual weakening of royal authority, the Delta defenses were allowed to lapse, and groups of transhumants found it easy to cross the border and settle in Lower Egypt...Having persuaded oneself of this, the Hyksos assumption of power reveals itself as a peaceful takeover from within by a racial element already in the majority'.
The Semitic names of such 15th- and 16th- .Dynasty Hyksos rulers as Khyan,Joama and their non-Egyptian origins. A number of new Kingdom texts, including the Ramesside Papyrus Sallier ( c. 1220 BC ) , suggest that the Hyksos interlude was essentially the ruthless imposition of Asiatic culture of that of the native Egyptians, but these were undoubtedly biased accounts., and th archaeological evidence is considerably more ambiguous.

The cemeteries, temples and stratified settlement remain at such eastern Delta sites as TELL EL-DAB'A,TELL EL-MASKHUTA and TELL EL-YAHUDIYA include considerable quantities of Syro-Palestin- ian material dating to the Middle Bronze age II period ( c. 2000-1700 BC. ) , but the Hyksos kings themselves have left few distinctively 'Asiatic'remains. The small number of royal sculptures of the Hyksos period largely adhere to the iconographic and stylistic traditions of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence to suggest that the rulers supported the traditional forms of government and adopted an Egyptian-style ROYAL TITULARY, although manfred Bietakhas discovered a door jamb at ( Tell El-Dab'a ) bearing the name of the Hyksos king Sokarher with the title heka khaswt. their major deity was SETH but they also worshipped other Egyptian gods as well as ANAT and ASTARTE, two closely related goddesses of Syro-Palestinian origin. Conventional forms of Egyptian literature, such as the Rhind Mathematical papyrus continued to be composed or copied.

Having established their capital at Avaris, they appear to have gradually spread westward, establishing centers such as TELL EL-YAHUDIYA, and taking control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of Hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad and Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean.

Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma bear the name Sheshi, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest known Hyksos king. The present of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them both to counter opposition in Upper Egypt, where a rival group, the 17th Theban Dynasty, were violently opposed to foreign rule. The second stele of KAMOSE,describing one of the Theban campaigns against the hyksos, includes clear references to a Nubian-Hyksos alliance by the end of the 17th dynasty.

During the Hyksos period, greater use was made of Horeses, and their use in warfare was developed through the introduction of the CHARIOT,which facilitated the development of new military techniques and strategies. the curved sword ( khepesh )was introduced, with body armour and helmets. Ironically, it was probably the adoption of such new military technology by the Thebans that helped their rulers to defeat the Hyksos , and to establish AHMOSE I ( 1550-1525 BC. ) as the first king of the 18th Dynasty, and founder of the New Kingdom ( 1550-1069 BC.).

The grave goods in Upper Egyptian private cemeteries of the Hyksos period (such as Abydos and Qau ) show great continuity with the pre-Hyksos period, suggesting that the cultural impact of the Hyksos rulers may have been restricted to the Delta region. even sites in the Memphite region and the western Delta show few indications of Palestinian influence. it has also been suggested by Harry Kemp that the apparent 'cultural hiatus'in the Fayum region during the second interm- ediate period may simply be an indication of political disrup- tion in those areas which has previously had a strong associ- ation with the Middle Kingdom central administration.


PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA.
Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.

Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.


Hyksos again

 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Nonsense! It's as easy as 1-2-3 if you can reference the Seder `Olam,
know the Aera Mundi calendar and how to correlate it to Julian calendar
dates.

Any competent talmid less lone a hhakham can verify the date of the
Exodus as 2448 AM (1313 BCE) per mesora qabbala shel y*hudi dati.

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
Actually iy is a very difficult to estimate when Hebrews were in Egypt based on the oral tradition of us Jews.

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quote:

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And they set on for him by himself, and for them
by themselves, and for the Egyptians, that did
eat with him, by themselves; because the
Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews;
for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

B*re'shiyth 43:32 (JPS 1917)

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quote:

---

[Joseph] was served by himself, and [the
brothers] by themselves. The Egyptians who were
eating with them [were also] segregated. The
Egyptians could not eat with the Hebrews, since
this was taboo to the Egyptians.

B*re'shiyth 43:32 (Kaplan)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

...theorizing that it was a Hyksos monarch before whom Joseph stood as an interpreter of dreams (Gen. 41:14-37) and who later ceded a choice parcel of land (Goshen) to Joseph's family (Gen. 47:6).
. . . .
...the court itself would not have been Egyptian, but Hyksos

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:


When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons , horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Miriam and Aaron began speaking against Moses
because of the dark-skinned woman he had
married. The woman that [Moses] had married was
indeed dark-skinned.

B*midh*bar 12:1 (Kaplan - after ibn Ezra and RD"K)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.

---

Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Actually its Bronze weapons that the Hyksos utilized over the Egyptians since it would appear that there is evidence for Egyptians using copper arrowheads from the 11th dynasty.

--> The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hyksos.htm


This reference was incorrect to copper weapons but it is where I got my information from:

--> They came to Egypt with horses, chariots and copper weapons, which the Egyptians would later adapt for their own armies.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/enemies.htm

Maybe it was the type of copper weapons that we advantagous to the Hyksos? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

quote:

---

Huh??? The Biblical verse I gave you is directly from the King James Bible.

Number 12:1

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman

---

The Hebrew word for black is Cushi and when the Tanakh was translated into Greek the term that was used was aethiopies[burnt faced ones in Greek]. Many people assume that Ziporah of the Old Testament was a African Cushite when infact she was actually a Midianite. Midianites were eastern Cushites.


Also in the land of the Old Testament there were Cushites both in Western Asia and south of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Djehuti is correct. No Nubian wife is written about. Kushi is Hebrew
for a dark skinned person. Only context can tell whether a particular
Kushi is from Qevs or in fact even a fellow Hebrew.

Moshe's Kushi wife Ssiporah was from Midian. She's the one who is
in the written Torah. He had another Kushi wife actually from Kush,
but she's only in the midrash not in the written Torah account.

quote:

---

Miriam and Aaron began speaking against Moses
because of the dark-skinned woman he had
married. The woman that [Moses] had married was
indeed dark-skinned.

B*midh*bar 12:1 (Kaplan - after ibn Ezra and RD"K)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Then we add in the story of Moses and a Nubian woman:

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Considering the alliance between Hyksos and Nubians it is not surprising that such a marriage would be noted and passed down in oral history.

---

Actually, scripture merely described Moses's wife as 'kushi' meaning black and states that he met her and her family in the deserts to the east in Sinai. We really don't know for certain what her origins are.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
It's starting to look like your whole "Hebrew" hypothesis and corrallaries
are being formulated as you go along. It's not presenting itself as something
well thought out, and to any degree of depth over a lengthy period of research.
This why you make a statement, then say you didn't make any such statement,
then rearrange or otherwise alter the original statement all the while
retaining the same intent instead of realizing you don't have the
kind of evidence you need to support your various hypotheses.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Actually its Bronze weapons that the Hyksos utilized over the Egyptians since it would appear that there is evidence for Egyptians using copper arrowheads from the 11th dynasty.

--> The Hyksos did eventually utilize superior bronze weapons, chariots and composite bows to help them take control of Egypt.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hyksos.htm


This reference was incorrect to copper weapons but it is where I got my information from:

--> They came to Egypt with horses, chariots and copper weapons, which the Egyptians would later adapt for their own armies.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/enemies.htm

Maybe it was the type of copper weapons that we advantagous to the Hyksos?

---

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings

Osirion wrote:

quote:

---

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

---

With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.

Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian.
Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE

As the Middle Kingdom went into decline, groups of Asiatics appear to have migrated into the Delta and established settlements. The Second Intermediate Period began with the establishment of the 15th Dynasty at Avaris ( TeLL EL-Dabaa ) in the Delta. The 15th Dynasty rulers were largely contemporary with the line of minor Hyksos rulers who comprise the 16th Dynasty. The precise dates of these two dynasties, and more particularly their rulers, are uncertain, as are those of the 17th Dynasty, the last of the period. The 17th Dynasty ruled from Thebes, effectively acting as the "native" Egyptian government, as opposed to the foreign northern rulers.

Having established their capital at Avaris, the political influence of the hyksos appears to have gradually spread, with the development of centres such as TELL EL-YAHUDiYA and TELL EL-MASKHUTA, and the probable seizure of the important Egyptian city f Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad adn Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean. Seals at the Nubian site of KERMA bear the name SHESHI, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest know Hyksos king. The presence of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them to counter the oppos- ition of the 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt. THe last rulers of the 17 Dynasty, SEQENENRA TAA II and KAMOSE campaigned openly against the hyksos, and Ahmose I, the first ruler of the 18th Dynasty, was eventually able to drive them from power, thus establishing the New Kingdom.

Hyksos : ( Egyptian heka khaswt : 'rulers of foreign lands' )
Term used to refer to a palestinian group ( or perhaps only there rulers ) who migrated to Egypt during the late Middle Kingdom ( c. 1800 - 1650 BC ) and rose to power in in Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period ( 1650 - 1550 BC ) . It used to be assumed that the Hyksos conquered Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty, but it's now recognized that the process was probably far more gradual and peaceful; according to donald redford, 'it's not unreasonable to assume that with the gradual weakening of royal authority, the Delta defenses were allowed to lapse, and groups of transhumants found it easy to cross the border and settle in Lower Egypt...Having persuaded oneself of this, the Hyksos assumption of power reveals itself as a peaceful takeover from within by a racial element already in the majority'.
The Semitic names of such 15th- and 16th- .Dynasty Hyksos rulers as Khyan,Joama and their non-Egyptian origins. A number of new Kingdom texts, including the Ramesside Papyrus Sallier ( c. 1220 BC ) , suggest that the Hyksos interlude was essentially the ruthless imposition of Asiatic culture of that of the native Egyptians, but these were undoubtedly biased accounts., and th archaeological evidence is considerably more ambiguous.

The cemeteries, temples and stratified settlement remain at such eastern Delta sites as TELL EL-DAB'A,TELL EL-MASKHUTA and TELL EL-YAHUDIYA include considerable quantities of Syro-Palestin- ian material dating to the Middle Bronze age II period ( c. 2000-1700 BC. ) , but the Hyksos kings themselves have left few distinctively 'Asiatic'remains. The small number of royal sculptures of the Hyksos period largely adhere to the iconographic and stylistic traditions of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence to suggest that the rulers supported the traditional forms of government and adopted an Egyptian-style ROYAL TITULARY, although manfred Bietakhas discovered a door jamb at ( Tell El-Dab'a ) bearing the name of the Hyksos king Sokarher with the title heka khaswt. their major deity was SETH but they also worshipped other Egyptian gods as well as ANAT and ASTARTE, two closely related goddesses of Syro-Palestinian origin. Conventional forms of Egyptian literature, such as the Rhind Mathematical papyrus continued to be composed or copied.

Having established their capital at Avaris, they appear to have gradually spread westward, establishing centers such as TELL EL-YAHUDIYA, and taking control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of Hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad and Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean.

Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma bear the name Sheshi, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest known Hyksos king. The present of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them both to counter opposition in Upper Egypt, where a rival group, the 17th Theban Dynasty, were violently opposed to foreign rule. The second stele of KAMOSE,describing one of the Theban campaigns against the hyksos, includes clear references to a Nubian-Hyksos alliance by the end of the 17th dynasty.

During the Hyksos period, greater use was made of Horeses, and their use in warfare was developed through the introduction of the CHARIOT,which facilitated the development of new military techniques and strategies. the curved sword ( khepesh )was introduced, with body armour and helmets. Ironically, it was probably the adoption of such new military technology by the Thebans that helped their rulers to defeat the Hyksos , and to establish AHMOSE I ( 1550-1525 BC. ) as the first king of the 18th Dynasty, and founder of the New Kingdom ( 1550-1069 BC.).

The grave goods in Upper Egyptian private cemeteries of the Hyksos period (such as Abydos and Qau ) show great continuity with the pre-Hyksos period, suggesting that the cultural impact of the Hyksos rulers may have been restricted to the Delta region. even sites in the Memphite region and the western Delta show few indications of Palestinian influence. it has also been suggested by Harry Kemp that the apparent 'cultural hiatus'in the Fayum region during the second interm- ediate period may simply be an indication of political disrup- tion in those areas which has previously had a strong associ- ation with the Middle Kingdom central administration.


PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA.
Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.

Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.


Hyksos again

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Nonsense! It's as easy as 1-2-3 if you can reference the Seder `Olam,
know the Aera Mundi calendar and how to correlate it to Julian calendar
dates.

Any competent talmid less lone a hhakham can verify the date of the
Exodus as 2448 AM (1313 BCE) per mesora qabbala shel y*hudi dati.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Actually iy is a very difficult to estimate when Hebrews were in Egypt based on the oral tradition of us Jews.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings

Osirion wrote:

quote:

---

Numbers 12
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

---

With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.

Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian.
Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE

As the Middle Kingdom went into decline, groups of Asiatics appear to have migrated into the Delta and established settlements. The Second Intermediate Period began with the establishment of the 15th Dynasty at Avaris ( TeLL EL-Dabaa ) in the Delta. The 15th Dynasty rulers were largely contemporary with the line of minor Hyksos rulers who comprise the 16th Dynasty. The precise dates of these two dynasties, and more particularly their rulers, are uncertain, as are those of the 17th Dynasty, the last of the period. The 17th Dynasty ruled from Thebes, effectively acting as the "native" Egyptian government, as opposed to the foreign northern rulers.

Having established their capital at Avaris, the political influence of the hyksos appears to have gradually spread, with the development of centres such as TELL EL-YAHUDiYA and TELL EL-MASKHUTA, and the probable seizure of the important Egyptian city f Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad adn Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean. Seals at the Nubian site of KERMA bear the name SHESHI, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest know Hyksos king. The presence of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them to counter the oppos- ition of the 17th Dynasty in Upper Egypt. THe last rulers of the 17 Dynasty, SEQENENRA TAA II and KAMOSE campaigned openly against the hyksos, and Ahmose I, the first ruler of the 18th Dynasty, was eventually able to drive them from power, thus establishing the New Kingdom.

Hyksos : ( Egyptian heka khaswt : 'rulers of foreign lands' )
Term used to refer to a palestinian group ( or perhaps only there rulers ) who migrated to Egypt during the late Middle Kingdom ( c. 1800 - 1650 BC ) and rose to power in in Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period ( 1650 - 1550 BC ) . It used to be assumed that the Hyksos conquered Egypt at the end of the 13th Dynasty, but it's now recognized that the process was probably far more gradual and peaceful; according to donald redford, 'it's not unreasonable to assume that with the gradual weakening of royal authority, the Delta defenses were allowed to lapse, and groups of transhumants found it easy to cross the border and settle in Lower Egypt...Having persuaded oneself of this, the Hyksos assumption of power reveals itself as a peaceful takeover from within by a racial element already in the majority'.
The Semitic names of such 15th- and 16th- .Dynasty Hyksos rulers as Khyan,Joama and their non-Egyptian origins. A number of new Kingdom texts, including the Ramesside Papyrus Sallier ( c. 1220 BC ) , suggest that the Hyksos interlude was essentially the ruthless imposition of Asiatic culture of that of the native Egyptians, but these were undoubtedly biased accounts., and th archaeological evidence is considerably more ambiguous.

The cemeteries, temples and stratified settlement remain at such eastern Delta sites as TELL EL-DAB'A,TELL EL-MASKHUTA and TELL EL-YAHUDIYA include considerable quantities of Syro-Palestin- ian material dating to the Middle Bronze age II period ( c. 2000-1700 BC. ) , but the Hyksos kings themselves have left few distinctively 'Asiatic'remains. The small number of royal sculptures of the Hyksos period largely adhere to the iconographic and stylistic traditions of the Middle Kingdom. There is some evidence to suggest that the rulers supported the traditional forms of government and adopted an Egyptian-style ROYAL TITULARY, although manfred Bietakhas discovered a door jamb at ( Tell El-Dab'a ) bearing the name of the Hyksos king Sokarher with the title heka khaswt. their major deity was SETH but they also worshipped other Egyptian gods as well as ANAT and ASTARTE, two closely related goddesses of Syro-Palestinian origin. Conventional forms of Egyptian literature, such as the Rhind Mathematical papyrus continued to be composed or copied.

Having established their capital at Avaris, they appear to have gradually spread westward, establishing centers such as TELL EL-YAHUDIYA, and taking control of the important Egyptian city of Memphis. The discovery of a small number of objects inscribed with the names of Hyksos kings at sites such as Knossos, Baghdad and Boghazkoy ( as well as the remains of Minoan frescos at 15th Dynasty Avaris ) suggest that the new rulers maintained trading links with the Near East and the Aegean.

Seals at the Nubian site of Kerma bear the name Sheshi, apparently a corrupted form of Salitis, the earliest known Hyksos king. The present of these seals probably indicates that there was an alliance between the Hyksos and the kingdom of Kerma, which would have helped them both to counter opposition in Upper Egypt, where a rival group, the 17th Theban Dynasty, were violently opposed to foreign rule. The second stele of KAMOSE,describing one of the Theban campaigns against the hyksos, includes clear references to a Nubian-Hyksos alliance by the end of the 17th dynasty.

During the Hyksos period, greater use was made of Horeses, and their use in warfare was developed through the introduction of the CHARIOT,which facilitated the development of new military techniques and strategies. the curved sword ( khepesh )was introduced, with body armour and helmets. Ironically, it was probably the adoption of such new military technology by the Thebans that helped their rulers to defeat the Hyksos , and to establish AHMOSE I ( 1550-1525 BC. ) as the first king of the 18th Dynasty, and founder of the New Kingdom ( 1550-1069 BC.).

The grave goods in Upper Egyptian private cemeteries of the Hyksos period (such as Abydos and Qau ) show great continuity with the pre-Hyksos period, suggesting that the cultural impact of the Hyksos rulers may have been restricted to the Delta region. even sites in the Memphite region and the western Delta show few indications of Palestinian influence. it has also been suggested by Harry Kemp that the apparent 'cultural hiatus'in the Fayum region during the second interm- ediate period may simply be an indication of political disrup- tion in those areas which has previously had a strong associ- ation with the Middle Kingdom central administration.


PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA.
Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.

Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.


Hyksos again

---

quote:

---

"Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful,
Hham was blessed black like the raven,
and Yapheth was blessed white all over."

(PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Moses's wife was Black but her father was a Midianite which to the Hebrews meant mixed ancestry. It is only logical to conclude that her Mother was an Ethiopian and that this is why she is referred to as an Ethiopian. The Bible clearly references Ethiopia as a nation state and not a physical description of people. If not then Egyptians would also be refered to as Ethiopian since many of them were just as Black as Ethiopians. Though Ethiopia and Egypt are often refered to as a single nation of people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Nonsense! It's as easy as 1-2-3 if you can reference the Seder `Olam,
know the Aera Mundi calendar and how to correlate it to Julian calendar
dates.

Any competent talmid less lone a hhakham can verify the date of the
Exodus as 2448 AM (1313 BCE) per mesora qabbala shel y*hudi dati.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Actually iy is a very difficult to estimate when Hebrews were in Egypt based on the oral tradition of us Jews.

---

---

The Exodus is just a legend, an echo of some actual event. We cannot expect that such oral traditions are wholly accurate and not with significant religious and fanatical alterations. We especially cannot rely upon timetables even more so since we really can't even rely upon the Egyptian dynastic list. We don't know for sure the exact orders of the dynasties!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Ignore Kaplan's translation from B*midhbar at your own risk!

Anyone who's studied the relevant Greco-Latin texts knows that by
"Ethiopian" they meant any black people in general and what today
is northern Sudan in particular. See Herodotus 7.70.1 for Asian
(eastern) Ethiopians and African (western) Ethiopians


The same holds true for the Hebrew texts where the word is KSHY
which the Greek writers translated as Ethiopian. Only context
decides which is meant, colour or nationality. Hebrews decided
the nationality of nohhrim by father. Ssiporah's father Yithro
was a Midyani one of Shemite peoples.The Midianite descendents
of Shem are as black as Kushites and even some Israelites are
so black enough that they are called Kushi.

quote:

---

"Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful,
Hham was blessed black like the raven,
and Yapheth was blessed white all over."

(PIRQE DE RABBI ELIEZER 28a)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Moses's wife was Black but her father was a Midianite which to the Hebrews meant mixed ancestry. It is only logical to conclude that her Mother was an Ethiopian and that this is why she is referred to as an Ethiopian. The Bible clearly references Ethiopia as a nation state and not a physical description of people. If not then Egyptians would also be refered to as Ethiopian since many of them were just as Black as Ethiopians. Though Ethiopia and Egypt are often refered to as a single nation of people.

---

---

quote:

---

Who coined the term Nubian anyways?

---

quote:

---

No such thing as a Nubian people. This is simply what we call the people to the South of Egypt and nothing more. Ethiopia is to the South of Egypt and the people the Greeks called Ethiopian (such as the people of Meroe) we normally consider to be Nubians.

Ethiopia of the Bible is not Ethiopia as in modern day Ethiopia. However, the Bible does refer to the Meroitic dynasty as an Ethiopian state. Queen Candace of Meroe is referred to as an Ethiopian queen but we know she is Nubian.

Acts 8:27 (Whole Chapter)
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

I think you guys are falling into modern day concepts with modern political ideals and re-translating the clear and obvious meaning of the ancient scriptures.

If Ethiopia in the Bible simply meant "Black" then does the above scripture make any sense? According to Ausar, Dhjeuti and yourself, Queen Candance is the Queen of the Burnt face people? Clearly this is not what is meant. We know Queen Candance is an Nubian Queen hence it is logical to conclude that the Biblical reference to Ethiopia is a reference to the Nubian people in general. In this case it is a reference to a state rather than an abstact group of people.

---

quote:

---

Djehuti is correct. No Nubian wife is written about. Kushi is Hebrew
for a dark skinned person. Only context can tell whether a particular
Kushi is from Qevs or in fact even a fellow Hebrew.

Moshe's Kushi wife Ssiporah was from Midian. She's the one who is
in the written Torah. He had another Kushi wife actually from Kush,
but she's only in the midrash not in the written Torah account.

---

quote:

---

This logically means that the site of Kerma is Nubian meaning a Nubian state. This implies that the Kermans themselves were Nubian which is just the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Can someone show me where in the Bible Ethiopia is used as a description of a person's skin color rather than their race or origins?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hotep2u:

With all due respect this is a very interesting topic you have here though I would like to point out a minor discrepancy.

Ethiopian is NOT NUBIAN, Ethiopian is Ethiopian.
Hyksos had a alliance with a group of people known as KERMA CULTURE

---

quote:

---

PLEASE NOTE THE ALLIANCE WAS WITH THE KINGDOM OF KERMA.
Kerma is Kerma and not Nubia.

---

quote:

---

Here is a picture of a princess headress from the Hyksos period.


Hyksos again

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
The Ktyw used copper weapons before Old Kingdom times and had bronze ones
(the tin was imported) beginning in the Middle Kingdom .

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:


When we consider that the introduction of copper weapons , horses and charriots came from the Hyksos, we immeadiately see a technological advantage that these Semitic people had over the Egyptians.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

Stop putting words into my mouth. I never said that J clade is Jewish. I refer to Semitic speaking nomads of Western Asia as Hebrews having a common paternal ancester from 4 or 5 thousand years ago. Jews does not equate to Hebrew.

---

quote:

---

This is a matter for a different thread. The Bible is clear: Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The Bible clearly notes that her father is a Midianite so why refer to her as an Ethiopian when we already know where her father is from? This only makes any sense to refer to her as an Ethiopian rather than a Midianite if we consider that her Mother was an Ethiopian.

---

quote:

---

Besides the Midianites are Semitic people that according to the Bible are people who are of mixed ancestry (Hamitic and Semitic).

---

quote:

---

To the Egyptians, Ethiopians ARE Nubians...

---

quote:

---

Ethiopia in the Bible is essentially Sudan and not Ethiopia of modern times. These people were normally referred to as Nubians. There really isn't a Nubian people but a diverse group of people that lived below the 4th cataract.

---

But as Ausar says, the the Bible describes 'eastern Ethiopians/Kushites as well. What about them? There are blacks in southern Arabia in parts of Yemen. There are even ones as far east as India, although don't get Winters started!

quote:

---

Also, the Bible is clear on Ethiopia being a Nation and not a description of people. The Bible clearly refers to Takahara as an Ethiopian King (the Pharoah of the 25 dynasty)? Did that mean he was a King with a Black face or was he a King of what is considered the Ethiopian state (which is actually Nubia)? There are plenty of references in the Bible to Ethiopia as a location. I think it is very questionable to apply Greek concepts to Hebrew oral tradition and I certainly would not use modern translations which have modern political concepts encoded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
You've already been shown an impeccable Jewish source, Kaplan's modern
unantiquated translation. You choose to ignore its wording. You likely
will ignore any other references which don't suit your purposes. But for
the other readers sake, who may get something out of it, here goes.

Ethiopia appears in the Septuagint and you've been shown the Greeks had
a general and a particular definition of Ethiopia.

The Greek Bible incorporates three collections of Hebrew texts; Torah, Nebi'iym,
and Kethubiym. Race was unknown to the Hebrews but they applied the word Kushi to
anyone as dark as somebody from Kush. Thus we have Israelites and Judahites who are
Kushiym:
* Yehudi ben Kushi (Jeremiah 36:14)
* Zephaniah ben Kushi (Zephaniah 1:1)
* Kush ben-Yemini (Psalm 7:1)
The Talmud even refers to Saul in Cushite terms.

None of this can be taken in a vacuum and you've made a vacuum devoid of
Hebrew language word usage.

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:
Can someone show me where in the Bible Ethiopia is used as a description of a person's skin color rather than their race or origins?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by osirion:

Stop putting words into my mouth. I never said that J clade is Jewish. I refer to Semitic speaking nomads of Western Asia as Hebrews having a common paternal ancester from 4 or 5 thousand years ago. Jews does not equate to Hebrew.

---

But since when did Hebrew mean Western Asian nomads?? The historical 'Hebrews' were but a small group. There were many others like the Amorites, the Aramaeans, Ugarites, Moabites, etc.

quote:

---

This is a matter for a different thread. The Bible is clear: Moses married an Ethiopian woman. The Bible clearly notes that her father is a Midianite so why refer to her as an Ethiopian when we already know where her father is from? This only makes any sense to refer to her as an Ethiopian rather than a Midianite if we consider that her Mother was an Ethiopian.

---

No. 'Ethiopian' is a Greek word. The original Hebrew description was 'kushi' meaning dark or black. When the texts were translated into Greek it was only natural that the Greek word 'Ethiopian' was used instead. Mind you black or dark peoples does not necessarily mean African.

quote:

---

Besides the Midianites are Semitic people that according to the Bible are people who are of mixed ancestry (Hamitic and Semitic).

---

Maybe, but the Near East is a region of diverse populations. Who knows what their origins are? They could have black ancestry from Africa or their black ancestry could be indigenous to Asia.

quote:

---

To the Egyptians, Ethiopians ARE Nubians...

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Incorrect, since the Egyptians never used either word! Ethiopian is a Greek term and Nubian a Roman one. The Egyptians themselves were specific and actually named the various groups that lived in the region of 'Ethiopia' or 'Nubia'

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Ethiopia in the Bible is essentially Sudan and not Ethiopia of modern times. These people were normally referred to as Nubians. There really isn't a Nubian people but a diverse group of people that lived below the 4th cataract.

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But as Ausar says, the the Bible describes 'eastern Ethiopians/Kushites as well. What about them? There are blacks in southern Arabia in parts of Yemen. There are even ones as far east as India, although don't get Winters started!

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Also, the Bible is clear on Ethiopia being a Nation and not a description of people. The Bible clearly refers to Takahara as an Ethiopian King (the Pharoah of the 25 dynasty)? Did that mean he was a King with a Black face or was he a King of what is considered the Ethiopian state (which is actually Nubia)? There are plenty of references in the Bible to Ethiopia as a location. I think it is very questionable to apply Greek concepts to Hebrew oral tradition and I certainly would not use modern translations which have modern political concepts encoded.

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Obviosly when the Bible uses 'Ethiopia' here, it described the nation of Kush which is more specific!

Do you now see the problems with the semantics of words like 'Ethiopia' which describe something as superficial as skin color??!

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Originally posted by osirion:

I am a somewhat religious person and you offend me with this concept that the King James Bible would be so confusing. You continue to offer your own translation rather than dealing with the fact that the King James translation does NOT ever use the term Ethiopian to refer to people simply of dark skin. It is far more reasonable that the Midianites mixed with the Cushitic people which we have evidence that they did. A significant amount of mtDNA from Sudan and Ethiopia can be found in Yemen and various other places where the Midianites would have lived. We also know that there was extensive trade in the pre-Aksumite period between Ethiopia and the Arabian peninsula. It is quite reasonable that Eastern Kushites are simply a mixture of Midianites and Kushites. This is exactly what Jewish oral tradition implies! Midianites were seen as a mixed prople having African and Asiatic heritage.

Rather than inferring that the Bible is incorrect and translated wrong, this explaination is far simpler and has substantial evidence support it. There also is no other example in the King James Bible where Ethiopian simply means "Dark Skin".

Modern day Jews may not like the idea that Moses was married to a Black Woman and re-translate the Bible, but I will not do the same since I see that as racist.

Moses wife was of mixed ancestry - Ethiopian and Medianite. The entire tone of the verse I provided was clearly a tone of racism on the part of Aaron and Miriam. It is clear what the contention is.

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Hebrew means nomadic and it was used to describe the nomadic people descended from Abraham. But it also has applications for other Semitic people that are also Asiatic nomads.

The most likely origin of word Hebrew is "ibri" which is derived from "br" which means "to cross over a boundary". (ISBE, revised, Hebrew) All have Semitic origins.

Included in this thought is that a "Hebrew" would be one "who crossed over" or one who went from place to place, a nomad, a wanderer, an alien.

This designation that would fit some aspects of
patriarchal behavior. If this is correct, then a Hebrew is one who travels into another land as a nomad and resides as an alien. It also means that the term has origins outside of Palestine and is a common expression that was etymologically modified from a nomad to specific ethnic group (Jews) whose origin was nomadic through Abram.

Essentially, Hebrews is what the Semitic nomads became known as but later a specific group was labeled as (the descendents of Abraham).

The first time the word "Hebrew" is used in the Bible is in Gen 14:13. Abraham is first called a "Hebrew" in Gen 14:13.

Abraham - common paternal J marker ancestor.

Why is this so hard for you to understand. You keep arguing with this concept of Hebrew. For months you have argued against the idea that Hebrew does not mean Jew. The term was used hundreds of years before the term Jew was coined after the establishment of the city of Judah.

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Originally posted by osirion:
Herodutus never referred to Indian people as Ethiopian. Please provide an example where the Greeks called Indian people Ethiopians. Regardless, in Jewish oral tradition there is no example where Ethiopian or Kushite is used to describe people of dark skin. To the contrary, there are plenty of examples of dark skin people who are not referred to as Ethiopians but are rather simply ashamed of being like Ethiopians.

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In all of the scriptures, Ethiopian is used to desribe the Kushite people. In just one example a Midianite's daughter is referred to as an Ethiopian. However, perhaps Moses had more than one wife and that this Ethiopian wife is not the daughter of the Midianite. I strongly disagree with the idea that Ethiopian simply meant dark skin. The term in the scriptures is more akin to the racial term "Black". It is more than just skin color.

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Here is every reference to Ethiopia in the King James Bible. Most of the time Ethiopia is reference with Egypt. It is exclusively used to refer to a people group and not the color of a person's skin.

This particular verse is very clear about Ethiopians being African: But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. : Libyans and Ethiopians are at the steps of Egypt.


Numbers 12:1 (Whole Chapter)
And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.


2 Chronicles 12:3 (Whole Chapter)
With twelve hundred chariots, and threescore thousand horsemen: and the people were without number that came with him out of Egypt; the Lubims, the Sukkiims, and the Ethiopians.


2 Chronicles 14:9 (Whole Chapter)
And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots; and came unto Mareshah.


2 Chronicles 14:12 (Whole Chapter)
So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled.


2 Chronicles 14:13 (Whole Chapter)
And Asa and the people that were with him pursued them unto Gerar: and the Ethiopians were overthrown, that they could not recover themselves; for they were destroyed before the LORD, and before his host; and they carried away very much spoil.


2 Chronicles 16:8 (Whole Chapter)
Were not the Ethiopians and the Lubims a huge host, with very many chariots and horsemen? yet, because thou didst rely on the LORD, he delivered them into thine hand.


2 Chronicles 21:16 (Whole Chapter)
Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:


Isaiah 20:4 (Whole Chapter)
So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.


Jeremiah 13:23 (Whole Chapter)
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.


Jeremiah 38:7 (Whole Chapter)
Now when Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, one of the eunuchs which was in the king's house, heard that they had put Jeremiah in the dungeon; the king then sitting in the gate of Benjamin;


Jeremiah 38:10 (Whole Chapter)
Then the king commanded Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Take from hence thirty men with thee, and take up Jeremiah the prophet out of the dungeon, before he die.


Jeremiah 38:12 (Whole Chapter)
And Ebedmelech the Ethiopian said unto Jeremiah, Put now these old cast clouts and rotten rags under thine armholes under the cords. And Jeremiah did so.


Jeremiah 39:16 (Whole Chapter)
Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee.


Jeremiah 46:9 (Whole Chapter)
Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.


Ezekiel 30:9 (Whole Chapter)
In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.


Daniel 11:43 (Whole Chapter)
But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.


Amos 9:7 (Whole Chapter)
Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?


Zephaniah 2:12 (Whole Chapter)
Ye Ethiopians also, ye shall be slain by my sword.


Acts 8:27 (Whole Chapter)
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

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Originally posted by osirion:
I understand that there may have been Eastern Cushites just like the Natufians. However, they are not referred to as Ethiopians in the Bible and I fail to see how you correlate this.

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I have read much of Herodotus work and do not remember seeing Eastern Ethiopians which probably refers to the Dravidians. The Dravidians are more than just dark skinned people, they are Black as I understand Black just like Andamans, Negritos, New Guineans, etc. It is more than just dark skin that makes them Black people.

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Even though I concede the Greeks seem to refer to the Dravidians as Ethiopians (which they may actually have been as far as we know), I do not concede it is simply a matter of skin color and I certainly don't see how it relates to the scriptures.

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Originally posted by osirion:

Cushi and Cushite is exactly the same thing.


Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:

patronymically from 'Kuwsh' (3568); a Cushite, or descendant of Cush:--Cushi, Cushite, Ethiopian(-s).

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The Torah, unlike the New Testament, is in Hebrew and not Greek. We do not need to translate from Hebrew to Greek and then to English. That is only necessary for the New Testament.

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Cushi means Cushite

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by osirion:

Cushi and Cushite is exactly the same thing.


Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:

patronymically from 'Kuwsh' (3568); a Cushite, or descendant of Cush:--Cushi, Cushite, Ethiopian(-s).

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The words may have the same root meaning but differences could be made into the ways they are used. Cushi being a description of physical appearance, while Cushite being an ethnic or nation appearance i.e. Kushite people south of Egypt.

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The Torah, unlike the New Testament, is in Hebrew and not Greek. We do not need to translate from Hebrew to Greek and then to English. That is only necessary for the New Testament.

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What about the Old Testament?! The Old Testament is essentially the Torah. And this was the one where the word 'ethiopian' is used in the Greek translation.

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Cushi means Cushite

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Again, 'Cushi' means black while 'Cushite' is reference to a specific black people.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, there appears to be a difference in the way cushi and 'cushite' is used.

The Bible seems describes black people, and it describes specific nations of black people.

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Originally posted by osirion:

Again, you haven't supported your position with any facts other than your word. There are plenty of translation references showing that Cushi means Cushite.

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Also, Hebrew was directly translated into English and thus the Greek sociological concept of who an Ethiopian is does not apply.

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Hebrews have a much more closer relationship with Cushites than would Greeks, however, the ancient Hebrews did indeed consider Southern Indians to be Cushites.

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However, I have never heard of the idea that the Midianites are Cushites. This is incorrect.

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The Bible clearly shows the Midianites to be a mixed people of both Semitic and Cushitic ancestry.

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Consequently the East Cushites are likely not the Midianites.

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Originally posted by ausar:
Djehuti, you also are making another common error. The linguistic classification of Cushic has little to do with the Cushite or Cushi of the Hebrew scriptures. Don't confuse the Cushic branch of Afro-Asiatic with the ancient Cushites or people described as Cushi in the bible.


You had two different Cushites:the ones in the east and the ones south of Egypt.


The chracter in question,Zipporah, is not a African Cushite but actually a Midianite. Midan is located around modern Jordan.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way Kenndo, was that your first time seeing that program Ramses: Wrath of God or Man?

What do you think?

Also, does the program offer any info on the actress who played Nefertari?

I first thought she was Somali because of the way she looked, and that folks here recommended to Borg, one of the Discovery producers who used to post here, to cast more African looking actors. But I think Borg said she was Moroccan.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Djehuti, you also are making another common error. The linguistic classification of Cushic has little to do with the Cushite or Cushi of the Hebrew scriptures. Don't confuse the Cushic branch of Afro-Asiatic with the ancient Cushites or people described as Cushi in the bible.


You had two different Cushites:the ones in the east and the ones south of Egypt.


The chracter in question,Zipporah, is not a African Cushite but actually a Midianite. Midan is located around modern Jordan.

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But that was exactly what I was trying to explain to Osirion! Cushi is a description of skin color while 'Cushitic' is a linguistic term.

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I have presented several translations of Hebrew. None of them seem to agree with you. Cushi appears to mean Cushite in every modern scriptural translation.

Midianites are never described as Cushi.

Here is a description of someone considered to be Black (just in skin color). Notice the person is not referred to as a Cushi:

Songs of Solomon:

5I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.

6Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.


Midianites would never be called Cushi because they are descended from Abraham:

1Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

2And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

3And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.


Also, Moses had several wives. Do we really know if the Ethiopian woman was related to any of the Midianites? Also, Jethro was a Midianite priest but that didn't mean he himself was a Midianite.
 

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Posted by Mrs. Doubtfire (Member # 9731) on :
 
The "Exodus" story is entirely a religious metaphor from beginning to end, including the fabled Moses and Aaron. It is an allegorical tale describing the difficulties that the initiates into the Jewish religion have to go through. "Coming out of Egypt" and "out of bondage" is a basic metaphor meaning the hylic body, the ego of man or the basic desires of the flesh. In later "Christian" times the Egypt/body metaphor is replaced with tomb meaning body or hylic or psychic state of the individual.

There is not one tissue of evidence to the contrary.
 

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Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by osirion:

M. F. Hammer, A. J. Redd, et al. (2000) Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes . Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Vol. 97, Issue 12, 6769-6774, June 6, 2000

Hammer et al. (2000) published an exploratory paper with this conclusion "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."

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Again, we know J is Middle Eastern, but it's very fool-hardy and may I say a little foolish in describing the whole clade as being 'Jewish'.

Mind you there are many peoples in the Middle East today who carry J, even J2 but would probably kill anyone who called them 'Jews'!!

Seriously, your 'Hebrew-centrism' is getting the better of you! You are beginning to sound like Kenndo in his rants about Nubia or worse yet, like Lion or Mr. Winters in their rants about black Africans around the world!!

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