quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

quote:

---

Nose, cheeks, facial structure..if you want to make everyone "possibly" black then there is no way for me to stop you.

---

This is exactly where it all comes down too, there is no real definition of a black person according to some here. He may have a sharp nose, a hooked nose, a flat nose he may have any type of skull , lips , hair ,his skin ranges from tan - dark, they don't have to consider themselves black, they may even dispise blacks yet according to some here they are in denial . I know africa was the cradle of civilization but to state that all these people are black regardless of facial features else is pure bullshit.

Yes you could argue Europeans are mixed but we share genes , culture and history. This is what makes us a real race, unlike your imaginary no boundry black race.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

This is exactly where it all comes down too, there is no real definition of a black person according to some here. He may have a sharp nose, a hooked nose, a flat nose he may have any type of skull , lips , hair ,his skin ranges from tan -dark,...

---

Actually there is a real definition of a 'black person'. 'Black' is in reference to skin color, specifically very dark skin coloring. The complexions may vary but they are usually found among peoples living in tropical to subtropical climates (and such populations are NOT confined to Africa).

As far as other features are concerned, they have no relevance to 'black'. But ironically we understand your skepticism since 'whites'/Europeans have done the EXACT SAME thing with regards to their imaginary and very loose definition of "caucasoid" race. It wasn't enough to say that Europeans or those around the Caucasus area were "caucasians" but they included practically everyone in the world with long narrow faces and long narrow noses. This meant everyone from Middle Easterners to Africans, to Indians, to Polynesians, and Native Americans etc.

Indigenous 'black' peoples do in fact span the globe again mostly around the tropical latitudes, but nobody said all blacks were Africans. Ancient Egyptians like Nubians were/are indigenous (black) Africans', plain and simple.

quote:

---

...they don't have to consider themselves black, they may even dispise blacks yet according to some here they are in denial

---

So you are saying that psychopathic, Arab-wannabe, northern Sudanese who have jet-black complexions and are much darker than the average 'black' Westerner, are somehow not black?!!

I don't know who's in more denial, they or YOU??

quote:

---

I know africa was the cradle of civilization but to state that all these people are black regardless of facial features else is pure bullshit.

---

You keep forgetting that Africa wasn't just the cradle of civilization, it was the cradle of HUMANITY itself!

That said, I don't know why it is so hard for you to believe that indigenous (BLACK) Africans can vary greatly in facial features--- YOU, the same person who pleads that he does not stereotype Africans "into one phenotype"!!

So what do you call these Africans who somehow fall outside the "range" of features that you're used to; white?!!

I suppose this Egyptian man below isn't really 'black' but a white guy with a very baked looking tan?!!



*sigh*

quote:

---

Yes you could argue Europeans are mixed but we share genes , culture and history. This is what makes us a real race, unlike your imaginary no boundry black race.

---

All indigenous Africans share genes also as denoted by the PN2 cladistic family in the Y-chromosome, mtDNA cladistic family, and various automsomal DNA.

Although the cultures of Africa are much greater and diverse than Europe, there is a commonality to them with common themes and features. A perfect example would be Egypt itself! Egypt has tons more in common culturally to Nigeria than to Mesopotamia, despite the distance between them!!

As far as history, all Africans share a prehistoric biological and cultural history and a more recent written historical connection through European domination and imperialism.

Does this answer your queries??!!

Feel free to ask any specifics about the above and we will be glad to enlighten you and do away with any ignorant misperceptions and misconceptions you have.

---

quote:

---

Are you suggesting that Africans don't share genes, culture, and history to the extent that "Europeans" do?

---

quote:

---

Is it true many Italians and Greeks will say, "Though you class me as caucasian I am not white."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

It's not a suggestion it's fact.

---

So I guess the following are wrong:

All indigenous Africans share genes also as denoted by the PN2 cladistic family in the Y-chromosome, mtDNA cladistic family, and various automsomal DNA.

Although the cultures of Africa are much greater and diverse than Europe, there is a commonality to them with common themes and features. A perfect example would be Egypt itself! Egypt has tons more in common culturally to Nigeria than to Mesopotamia, despite the distance between them!!

As far as history, all Africans share a prehistoric biological and cultural history and a more recent written historical connection through European domination and imperialism.

quote:

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Those are in the minority, the vast majority of them identify with being european and being white.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by African_Bible_Expert:

Well I personally don't consider that man in that picture black...

---

quote:

---

and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't either if you asked him or people that look like him in the nile valley.

---

quote:

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He looks like a copt that doesnt mean black.

---

First of all 'Copt' is a Christian denomination and says nothing about physical appearance.

Second of all, you are in major denial to say he doesn't look black. There are African Americans who look whiter than him but I'm sure you would still call them black!


 

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Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
The idea that greeks and italians do not consider themselves white is ignorant to the point of dementia.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
I agree with you Horemheb but that is the truth. Some Greeks and Italians for some reason don't consider themselves white. Maybe it has something to do with the African Ancestry in Southern Europe.

Peace
 

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Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
There is no African ancestry in southern Europe King. there might be a decendant of a slave or soldier or two but those genes were washed out years ago.

The sally Hemmings case comes to mind. Her decendants that decided to join the whit community sho no signs of having a black ancestor 200 years later. Her decendats that joined the black community show no signs of having a white ancestor 200 years later. After two or three generations it starts to thin out quickly. Hemmings had an affair with Jefferson's brother and produced several children.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

There is no African ancestry in southern Europe King. there might be a decendant of a slave or soldier or two but those genes were washed out years ago.

---

LOL And how long have you been reading about Y-chromosomal E lineages and Benin sickle cell haplotypes in Europe in this board, Hore?!

How long have you been hearing about the introduction of African E lineages to Europe via migrations during the Neolithic and not some minor slave trade or a few soldiers, since the frequencies are high especially in southeastern Europe??

You obviously don't know much about genetics, since genes can't be "washed out".

quote:

---

The sally Hemmings case comes to mind. Her decendants that decided to join the whit community showed no signs of having a black ancestor 200 years later. Her decendats that joined the black community show no signs of having a white ancestor 200 years later. After two or three generations it starts to thin out quickly. Hemmings had an affair with Jefferson's brother and produced several children.

---

The "signs" you speak of are obviously phenotypical features i.e. physical appearance, which has no bearing on lineage.

FACT is, it is not just Thomas Jefferson but many white Americans who carry African maternal lineages and may not know it.

Perhaps you should get tested Hore.
 

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Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
But that is not true. You seem to forget about E3b being in southern europe. E3b is African and it is found in southern europe especially found in the Greeks. This shows that southern Europe has African Ancestry. Sorry but I have to say that Southern Europe has African ancestry.

Peace
 

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Posted by African_Bible_Expert (Member # 10953) on :
 
I would have to agree. I am as far from an Afrocentric as a white nazi and I see no problem with southern Europeans have black ancestry *shrugs* no more than African Americans having European ancestory.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:

Yes Mike seems to not get it. He says he does not stereotype Africans but then he says Foolish stuff about the Fulani. Then he goes on about Black People. He does not realize that their are black people who don't consider themselves black. Mike seems a bit ignorant to african diversity. He needs to explain himself. If Mike sticks around he could learn alot...

---

quote:

---

Mike listen to Djehuti Africans are related via the Pn2 Clade this shows that africans are linked. What proof is their to say that Africans are not linked?

---

It's not just the PN2 super clade on Y-chromosomes, but again mtDNA from female lineages, as well as autosomal (all other DNA) that Africans are genetically related.

Africa unlike Eurasia had little barriers to prevent gene flow between different populations and long term isolations, which is why West Africans are still closely related to East Africans, while Europeans are not as closely related to East Asians.

Also, phenotype say nothing about ancestry.

Which is why this Fulani..



is no different in paternal lineage AND in autosomal genes from this Mande..



And why this Egyptian...



is no different in paternal lineage from this Hamar



And why these Andamanese of Southeast Asia...





are among the most distantly related to Africans despite their similar appearances.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by African_Bible_Expert:

I would have to agree. I am as far from an Afrocentric as a white nazi and I see no problem with southern Europeans have black ancestry *shrugs* no more than African Americans having European ancestory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by African_Bible_Expert:
Speak for yourself. Apparently there are many whites who are bothered by this FACT.

---

American social and legal custom of classifying anyone with one black ancestor, regardless of how far back, as black. Many scholars believe that the one-drop rule is stronger than ever in North America.

According to legal scholar Neil Gotanda, American “racial” classifications in court cases today follow two formal rules:

1) Rule of recognition: Any person whose Black-African ancestry is visible is Black. 2) Rule of descent: (a) Any person with a known trace of African ancestry is Black, notwithstanding that person’s visual appearance; or; stated differently, (b) the offspring of a Black and a white is Black. Historians and social scientists have noted the existence of these rules, often summarized as the “one drop of blood” rule, in their analysis of the American system of racial classification.... White is unblemished and pure, so one drop of ancestral Black blood renders one Black.
 

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Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
Myra, I have never known a single white person ever mention the 'one drop rule.' In the first place, how would someone know if I had a black ancestor five generations ago? Sound like the usual black victimization cry to me. The one drop rule died with Jim Crow.
 

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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 
The one-drop rule serves as the official instrument of enforcement of civil rights laws. Ever since 1965, when the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission required race-conscious record-keeping and reporting on the part of companies, racial classification has been an organizing principle for the American work force.
 

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Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
No no no Myra. If I go to work somewhere , or list my race on a form it is whatever I say it is. There is no testing that goes on so the point is moot.
If I apply for a job and put a x on the box that says white how do they know if I have a drop of black blood or not?
 

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Posted by Charm El Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
 
so if i listed my race as mixed say african/eastern european i would have to be interviewed and treated as such.

thats interesting. at the moment the metropolitan police are "currently only recruiting potential officers from ethnic minorities" in some sort of positive discriminatory attempt to redress the balance

how would they enforce the race box ticked? if what ive been reading here is anything to go on i could demand to be treated as an ethnic minority? AND i might very well be right!!!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^which is why listing one's 'race' is silly and pointlesss.

*There is no such thing as biologically distinct 'races'.

*Phenotype says nothing about lineage.

Does everyone understand??

Now let's get back to the topic please, which is European unity vs. Africa, lest this thread degenerates into another white vs. black mess and Ausar is forced to close this thread down as well!!
 

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Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
well Charm, what they are trying to imply is that America is a bigoted society that believes that if you have an ancestor in 1820 who was black you are still black even if by now you look Danish, with blonde hair and blue eyes. Its nonsense of course. They can't test you and have no way of knowing what kind of ancestry you might have. Its just part of that victimology that wants to get on the evil white man for holding his thumb on the poor black man.
 

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Posted by Myra Wysinger (Member # 10126) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charm El Feikh?:
if what ive been reading here is anything to go on i could demand to be treated as an ethnic minority? AND i might very well be right!!!

---

quote:

---

NY Times Article:
The DNA Age
Seeking Ancestry in DNA Ties Uncovered by Tests
E-MailPrint Save

By AMY HARMON
Published: April 12, 2006
Alan Moldawer's adopted twins, Matt and Andrew, had always thought of themselves as white. But when it came time for them to apply to college last year, Mr. Moldawer thought it might be worth investigating the origins of their slightly tan-tinted skin, with a new DNA kit that he had heard could determine an individual's genetic ancestry.
The results, designating the boys 9 percent Native American and 11 percent northern African, arrived too late for the admissions process. But Mr. Moldawer, a business executive in Silver Spring, Md., says they could be useful in obtaining financial aid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^which is why listing one's 'race' is silly and pointlesss.

*There is no such thing as biologically distinct 'races'.

*Phenotype says nothing about lineage.

Does everyone understand??

Now let's get back to the topic please, which is European unity vs. Africa, lest this thread degenerates into another white vs. black mess and Ausar is forced to close this thread down as well!!

---

• language: The Egyptian language is an Afrasian language with monosyllabic roots that show more affinity with other languages in Africa than Semitic languages, but as an Afrasian language Semitic is of African origin also.
• Divine Kingship: The pharaoh was seen as both king and god and is believed to have divine powers. This belief is widespread in Africa. Whereas many peoples in Sudan and East Africa have a "rain-maker" king, the Egyptian king is believed to make the Nile flood.
• the significant role of women: women in Egyptian society were not suppressed like those of the Near-East and had active roles in public life. They had freedom and independence and could run their own businesses and own their own properties. Again this is prevalent in African societies.
• Clothing styles: The Egyptians wore thin white linen robes of the exact same style worn by other peoples in East Africa, especially the nomads. They also wore simple loincloths and in some cases went naked! Usually it was prepubescent children who went naked, and women could even go topless.
• Hairstyles: Egyptian hairstyles varied. The women could have short cropped hair to long hair and similar for men but both sexes usually kept their heads shaven and wore wigs and extensions. The extensions could be braided on and Egyptians wore elaborate style braids. Diop made a perfect example of the remarable similarity between the wigs and hairstyles of Egyptians and those of West Africans.
• Other adornments: The Egyptians both men and women wore jewelry from simple to elaborate. Jewelry could be made from shells and animal teeth to stones and metals. The most common form of jewelry were beads which could be made into collars or necklaces. The Egyptians also wore amulets which they believed could ward off evil spirits.
• Body art: The Egyptians not only wore tatoos but also ritual scars as can be found among some mummies. No doubt these were remnants of their tribal markings.
• Dances: Herodotus describes the Egyptians as being "a very rythmic people". His accounts are based on the fact that not only do the Egyptians love dancing but use dancing as part of many rituals including religous rituals, just as other Africans do!
• Circumcision Rites: The Egyptians practiced circumcision as a rite of passage for boys into adulthood, as do many African peoples. It's uncertain whether girls were circumcised, but it is not surprising that they took part in some sort of rite of passage as other females in many African societies.
• sacred colors & numbers: The Egyptians, like many Africans held sacred beliefs for certain numbers like 1 for the beginning of all, 2 for duality, and the color black for life and regeneration and the color red for chaos and destruction. Many Africans also share these beliefs. Many groups in East Africa worship a supremed deity that is concieved of as black whereas destructive deities are red.
• Totemism & their taboos: The Egyptians held certain animals and plants to be sacred because they are living symbols of their gods and thus there were taboos against harming these living things. Another belief prevalent in black Africa.
• Ancestor veneration: The Egyptians like many Africans believed in honoring their deceased. They made images of them and held feasts in their honor. These greatest of these ancesor cults were those of the dead pharaohs in which monuments were built but everyone who died from nobility to commoners had their tribute paid by relatives and friends. These beliefs are also common to Africa.
• Cosmology: The Egyptians' gods and creation myths bear a striking reseblance to many other African societies. Beliefs like the stars in the heavens representing the dead kings or the creation of mankind from the bodily fluids of gods like tears or semen. Or the belief that both the sky and earth were gods and every natural formation from a river to a tree had a god. Ironically Westerners call such beliefs in black Africa as being animism yet hold Egyptian religion on a class of its own.
• Zar possession rituals: Even today in rural parts of Egypt, they continue to practice the possession ritual of Zar that is practiced by Africans from East to West. It is even a special ritual among West African voodoo! And speaking of voodoo...
• The Practice of Magic (Voodoo): The Egyptians believed in the power of magic and used them in many rituals. There were execration rituals in which images of enemies were made and destroyed. Or images of enemies made on the Pharaohs sandals so he may symbolically step on them. The key to Egyptian (and essentially all African) beliefs in magic is the symbolism. The power of magic is to make the symbolic real. Like voodoo dolls etc.

quote:

---

LOL Yes King, it would seem our friend Mike here is suffering from a little denial syndrome. The guy claims to not stereotype Africans into a certain phenotype, but then goes on contradicting himself by saying Fulani looked foreign or "mixed". He also says that rural Egyptians like the one I posted are "mixed".

---

The fact that you think this man below is a pure black african is a testament to your dementia.



This man is clearly of mixed blood.


Is this person black ?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

The fact that you think this man below is a pure black african is a testament to your dementia.

---

Nope, but the fact that you think this man below is "mixed" is a clear testament of your IGNORANCE.

quote:

---

This man is clearly of mixed blood.

---

Funny, you said the same thing about this Fula man below..



But it turns out that not only does he have the same type of Y-chromosomal lineage but also the same type of automsomal genes as the people you assume to be true pure Africans.

quote:

---

Is this person black ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Nope, but the fact that you think this man below is "mixed" is a clear testament of your IGNORANCE.

---

quote:

---

This person's skin tone however, falls well within the indigenous African range of skin tones. So, the person is dark skinned - skin tone, and he is an African - geography. Therefore, this person is a "black African" - has nothing to do with "race". Whatever ancestry this person has in his gene pool is irrelevant to this fact.

---

So let me get this straight, the egyptian in the above post, most likely doesn't consider himself black and has a noticable amount of foreign admixture yet according to you he is a black african. Yes I am convinced!!!!!!!!............
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

quote:

---

Supercar:

This person's skin tone however, falls well within the indigenous African range of skin tones. So, the person is dark skinned - skin tone, and he is an African - geography. Therefore, this person is a "black African" - has nothing to do with "race". Whatever ancestry this person has in his gene pool is irrelevant to this fact.

---

So let me get this straight, the egyptian in the above post, most likely doesn't consider himself black and has a noticable amount of foreign admixture yet according to you he is a black african. Yes I am convinced!!!!!!!!............

---

You don't know what this Egyptian considers himself; and hence, your claim is highly speculative on what the individual may or may not say, in a given situation or environment.

And again, Mike, my aim is never to "convince" anybody here or anywhere, since more often than not, people know the truth inside; my aim is to put facts in the open, and let the chips fall where they may - even if it means exposing distorters of truth. I haven't done any DNA testing on this fellow, but even if we were to find some "extra-African" contribution in his gene pool, it doesn't change two things:

a) That the guy exhibits levels of melanin that is simply rare in northern Eurasians, or "leucoderms" in general. But he does have a level of melanin, that doesn't stand out in "black" folks.

b) The man is an African.

Combine the two uncontestable and instantly observable facts, and you have a "black African".

If you feel that neither of the above are immediately observable about the aforementioned individual, then feel free to provide info to the contrary. The ball is in your court.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Mike

We don't know what this guy considers himself so for you to say that the guy does not consider himself black is wrong. Also he does not look like he has noticeable admixture so that is also wrong. Why are you trying to turn Black Africans into some kind of mix? What is your point. You don't make much sense. At least tell us why you think the guy looks mixed. You have not provided a good arguement for this guy looking mixed.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Mansa Musa (Member # 6800) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KING:
You don't make much sense.

---

quote:

---

That the guy exhibits levels of melanin that is simply rare in northern Eurasians, or "leucoderms" in general. But he does have a level of melanin, that doesn't stand out in "black" folks.

---

quote:

---

Why are you trying to turn Black Africans into some kind of mix? What is your point

---

quote:

---

At least tell us why you think the guy looks mixed. You have not provided a good arguement for this guy looking mixed.

---

The man looks like a darkskin arab.


Next thing you will be telling me Somalis are pure black africans
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Mike knows what we are saying, he is just trying to make it into an issue of US being biased.

The main point here:

Africans posses MORE diversity than any other population on earth. What does that mean? Well it means that Africans possess a WIDE set of features that encompass the FULL range of features found in all humans on the globe. Therefore, you have Africans with thin lips, thick lips, broad noses, narrow noses, long heads, short heads, round heads narrow heads, slanted eyes, round eyes, big foreheads, small foreheads and so on. Whereas populations like those from Europe, while also having diversity in features, dont posses the FULL range of skeletal and phenotypical features found in Africa. Now, since MANKIND originated in Africa and has been in Africa the LONGEST, it only makes sense that the variation of man would be GREATEST in Africa. Likewise, since Africans from the HORN of Africa are the basis of MODERN European and Asian populations, then it would FIT that these populations would have SIMILAR features. HOWEVER, that cannot change the ANTIQUITY of the same said features IN AFRICA. Therefore, to just look at a persons features from Africa and state that those features are a result of MIXING (especially with NON AFRICANS) is PURE NONSENSE. You have to compare such features with features across the board, including OTHER Africans, in order to determine how DIFFERENT or MIXED these features are. If other surrounding Africans have SIMILAR features and are NOT mixed, then you cannot attribute such to MIXING.

But that is if you are TRULY doing your anthropological research. If you are trying to reinforce previously held BIASES and PREDJUDICES, then of course you will only STOP at the superficial features and conclusion of MIXING and not do any further research. The FACT that we can find and show MANY African groups that have features considered "European" shows that Europe is not the HOME of such features and calling such features EUROPEAN is not only nonsense but downright a distortion. A REAL anthropologist, on the other hand, SHOULD have a comprehensive chart, with a WIDE range of features found in the various populations in certain areas. THEN that would be used as a REFERENCE for making determinations on what is or isnt a result of MIXING. Actually, the European anthropologists DID do this when they first went to Africa, but since they were BIASED and RACIST, much of what they found and documented was NOT used for TRUTH. Many times they used such documentation to reinforce RACIST views, purposely distorting what they found in order to maintain preexisting biases.
 

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Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
In other words Doug, what you are really saying is that if we don't agree with you we are racists? Thats what it sounds like to me.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
After once again demonstrating how easily the Eurocentrics here
can dominate and dictate the direction of this forum as they please,
would they care to persue the issue of the subject header and get
to the point requested in the start-up post of this thread?

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between
the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus
or Rumania and Ireland.

---

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between
the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus
or Rumania and Ireland.

---

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between
the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus
or Rumania and Ireland.

---

quote:

---

Europeans are mixed but we share genes , culture and history. This is what makes us a real race,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

So let me get this straight, the egyptian in the above post, most likely doesn't consider himself black..

---

quote:

---

...and has a noticable amount of foreign admixture yet according to you he is a black african. Yes I am convinced!!!!!!!!............

---

Again, I ask what exactly is this "noticable foreign admixture"??!! You apparently have ignored everything I said about the phenotypic diversity among indigenous Africans like the Fulani, and you still haven't answered my question on what features of the man constitutes as evidence of "foreign" ancestry!!

We are not amused! Quit dodging and address the relevant questions at hand!

quote:

---

So a man living in africa is either white or black , no inbetween?

---

quote:

---

That's exactly what you afrocentrics have done.

---

quote:

---

The man looks like a darkskin arab.

---

LOL You do realize that 'Arabs' are of very diverse origins and that many Arabs in Arabia have African ancestry!! There are also blacks in Africa who claim to be Arab. So your reference to Arab looks is null.

quote:

---

Next thing you will be telling me Somalis are pure black africans

---

LOL The vast majority of Somalis ARE pure! The only mixed Somalis are those living in the coastal cities. Somalis have among the highest frequencies of E3b1* at over 80%!

Again, despite your earlier protest your views of how pure Africans look like is FALSE!

So roll your eyes all you want. You won't get anywhere until you address the FACTS.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
I deleted my "off-topic" response to Mike. I hope we are all happy now.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Thanks, but in all honesty I'm about to blow this thread away
because there's been not even one on topic response. The
only thing reining me in is appreciation of the time and
effort people put in even though their remarks have nothing
to do with the subject header topic.

It's a monument to the effectiveness of Euro dominance
being successfully disable others' attempts of independent
thought and being able to keep others on the defensive
while never allowing themselves to be put on the defensive.

And we all know you can't win playing defense.

Notice they not once even tried to defend European genetic,
cultural, and historic unity but instead made others defend
African genetic, cultural, and historic unity and then reverted
back to the keep-em-discussin-black-n-white tactic,
again quite successfully.

That's why they're the winners though few seem to grasp it.

So in essence my hat's off to the Euro distractors who succeed
in derailing the progressive train of knowledge that was once
here on this forum. I no longer will try to stop their subversiveness
as apparently that's what the majority of posters really want.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Oh and Mikey, we are still waiting for your address of the thread topic concerning Europe.

We have already presented you evidence of the unity among Africans:

Genetically: PN2 cladistic family in the Y-chromosome, mtDNA cladistic family, and various automsomal DNA.

Culturally:

• language: The Egyptian language is an Afrasian language with monosyllabic roots that show more affinity with other languages in Africa than Semitic languages, but as an Afrasian language Semitic is of African origin also.
• Divine Kingship: The pharaoh was seen as both king and god and is believed to have divine powers. This belief is widespread in Africa. Whereas many peoples in Sudan and East Africa have a "rain-maker" king, the Egyptian king is believed to make the Nile flood.
• the significant role of women: women in Egyptian society were not suppressed like those of the Near-East and had active roles in public life. They had freedom and independence and could run their own businesses and own their own properties. Again this is prevalent in African societies.
• Clothing styles: The Egyptians wore thin white linen robes of the exact same style worn by other peoples in East Africa, especially the nomads. They also wore simple loincloths and in some cases went naked! Usually it was prepubescent children who went naked, and women could even go topless.
• Hairstyles: Egyptian hairstyles varied. The women could have short cropped hair to long hair and similar for men but both sexes usually kept their heads shaven and wore wigs and extensions. The extensions could be braided on and Egyptians wore elaborate style braids. Diop made a perfect example of the remarable similarity between the wigs and hairstyles of Egyptians and those of West Africans.
• Other adornments: The Egyptians both men and women wore jewelry from simple to elaborate. Jewelry could be made from shells and animal teeth to stones and metals. The most common form of jewelry were beads which could be made into collars or necklaces. The Egyptians also wore amulets which they believed could ward off evil spirits.
• Body art: The Egyptians not only wore tatoos but also ritual scars as can be found among some mummies. No doubt these were remnants of their tribal markings.
• Dances: Herodotus describes the Egyptians as being "a very rythmic people". His accounts are based on the fact that not only do the Egyptians love dancing but use dancing as part of many rituals including religous rituals, just as other Africans do!
• Circumcision Rites: The Egyptians practiced circumcision as a rite of passage for boys into adulthood, as do many African peoples. It's uncertain whether girls were circumcised, but it is not surprising that they took part in some sort of rite of passage as other females in many African societies.
• sacred colors & numbers: The Egyptians, like many Africans held sacred beliefs for certain numbers like 1 for the beginning of all, 2 for duality, and the color black for life and regeneration and the color red for chaos and destruction. Many Africans also share these beliefs. Many groups in East Africa worship a supremed deity that is concieved of as black whereas destructive deities are red.
• Totemism & their taboos: The Egyptians held certain animals and plants to be sacred because they are living symbols of their gods and thus there were taboos against harming these living things. Another belief prevalent in black Africa.
• Ancestor veneration: The Egyptians like many Africans believed in honoring their deceased. They made images of them and held feasts in their honor. These greatest of these ancesor cults were those of the dead pharaohs in which monuments were built but everyone who died from nobility to commoners had their tribute paid by relatives and friends. These beliefs are also common to Africa.
• Cosmology: The Egyptians' gods and creation myths bear a striking reseblance to many other African societies. Beliefs like the stars in the heavens representing the dead kings or the creation of mankind from the bodily fluids of gods like tears or semen. Or the belief that both the sky and earth were gods and every natural formation from a river to a tree had a god. Ironically Westerners call such beliefs in black Africa as being animism yet hold Egyptian religion on a class of its own.
• Zar possession rituals: Even today in rural parts of Egypt, they continue to practice the possession ritual of Zar that is practiced by Africans from East to West. It is even a special ritual among West African voodoo! And speaking of voodoo...
• The Practice of Magic (Voodoo): The Egyptians believed in the power of magic and used them in many rituals. There were execration rituals in which images of enemies were made and destroyed. Or images of enemies made on the Pharaohs sandals so he may symbolically step on them. The key to Egyptian (and essentially all African) beliefs in magic is the symbolism. The power of magic is to make the symbolic real. Like voodoo dolls etc.

quote:

---

as Takruri says:

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus or Rumania and Ireland.

---

Can you even do this?? Can you list any common genetic lineages among Europeans? Can you even dish out a list of common cultural features as I have done concering Egypt's connections to the rest of Africa??...

You couldn't even address my points concerning which Africans are 'mixed' and which are 'pure'.

Will you be able to address anything at all thus far??


 

---

Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
 

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus or Rumania and Ireland.

---

quote:

---

We have already presented you evidence of the unity among Africans:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

They are all indigenous to the European continent and are indo-european speakers and white. There are also many historical connection the most vivid to my memory today is that of the viking raids which crossed not only to these nations but all of europe.

---

Sorry but weak stuff in comparison to the stuff I pulled out. I'm not even of African descent yet I am knowledgeable enough to come up with enough data to support the so-called 'Afrocentric' claims.

I am not of European descent either, yet I could do a much better job than you with Europe.

Show us the specific genes that Europeans share. I have already listed the genes all indigenous Africans share.

Not all Europeans speak Indo-European languages such as the Basque of Spain and the Fins of Finland, but so far this is the only cultural fact you have listed.

You claim that there are "many" historical connections, yet all you listed were the Viking raids! LOL I listed several historic connections Africans had throughout the continent including European imperialism.

You are going to have to do a lot betther than this, Mike.

quote:

---

No you haven't you just picked and chose certain cultural similarities between certain african communities and ancient egypt. Admit it or not there is no real unity in africa.

---

The cultural aspects I listed were just a handful of countless things they had in common with not certain, but MANY African societies! So you say such common traits do not count as proof of a commonality between Africans, yet you haven't even come close to creating a list comparing, say Greece, with other European societies?!

True many European nations are part of the European Union, so there is political unity, but so far you have not listed anywhere near the number of commonalities that Africans share.

By the way, you still haven't addressed my points about African phenotypic diversity and what looks constitute 'pure' or 'mixed'.

We're still waiting..
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Mike

Your digging yourself into a hole that you can't come out of. You say that people are Afrocentric but I am not even black and neither is alot of posters on this forum. What does speaking the facts have got to do with being Afrocentrics. The Facts as Djehuti has posted about African Unity is just that Facts. You can't dispute these facts. So lets talk about Europe since you think that Europe is more united then Africa is then it should be easy for you to post showing how Europe is more United then Africa. I would really like to know how Europe is united because I have a special place for Europe but I don't know much about Europe.

Peace
 

---

Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
 

quote:

---

So lets talk about Europe since you think that Europe is more united then Africa is then it should be easy for you to post showing how Europe is more United then Africa. I would really like to know how Europe is united because I have a special place for Europe but I don't know much about Europe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
There are many example of european unity.


2. During the crusades European knights fought as a unit to free jerusalem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
5. War against Napoleon.
6. WW1
7. WW2

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Actually the guy makes pretty good points about the unity of Europeans. Europe is after all a small continent-- actually not even a continent but large peninsula.

He hasn't yet shown what genes Europeans share, even though we've shown him the genes and specific lineages all indigenous Africans share. I'm still waiting on this.

And what he hasn't proven or rather disproven was the commonality that Africans share!

I have already provided the genetic, cultural, and historical commonalities.

So far he has not been able to refute any of it. He can't, and let's hope he won't try to so he may save himself from further embarassment.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
By the way, he still hasn't addressed anything about what looks constitutes 'pure' Africans from those who have 'mixed' ancestry...

I am still waiting for that.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
Am I the only one who seems to have noticed that Mike has NOT answered this question?...

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus or Rumania and Ireland.

---

quote:

---

Mike:

5. War against Napoleon.
6. WW1
7. WW2

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
4. Renaissance

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Supercar:
Am I the only one who seems to have noticed that Mike has NOT answered this question?...

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus or Rumania and Ireland.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
3. The colonisation of Asia , Africa and the Americas.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

1. During the mongol invasion european knights throughout the continent rushed to the East to fight.

---

quote:

---

Can you say Cathar and Baltic?

---

quote:

---

I fail to see how intercontinental conflict can be taken as a demonstration of unity.

---

quote:

---

By the way, he still hasn't addressed anything about what looks constitutes 'pure' Africans from those who have 'mixed' ancestry...

---

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus or Rumania and Ireland.

---

quote:

---

There's no connection between the Italian Renaissance and the
English Renaissance save the word renaissance,

---

quote:

---

The Scramble for Africa (carving up the continental cake by mutual
agreement) was well after the age of colonisation when they were
cutting each others' throats

---

quote:

---

If you're refering to the Huns your statement is a complete fabrication.
Fact is some Europeans like the "Ostro"goths and the Slavs joined the Huns.

---

quote:

---

And for the same size in a similar distance Mike it would still seem that Africans are More United. Mike you have a lot of work to do to combat African Unity VS European Unity. Africa in a similar distance to europe still seems more united.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:

I'm gonna be honest and agree with Michael on this point,there is definetly no unity in Africa. African countries are far from being united, infact their's no unity even among regions, there is not even unity internally among alot of African countries. I think it will take time, alot of time untill african countries can finally unite and see the benefit this kind of unity brings, such as European Union realized when they united for economic protection against Japan and US.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
That still doesn't change the fact that Europe united in order to war the Islamic world.

---

quote:

---

The conflict itself isn't the proof of unity it's the alliances that were made.

---

You aim to prove European unity by showing Europeans allying against other Europeans?

Next you're going to tell us Africans have never united against other Africans.

quote:

---

It depends on the region , but one thing is for certain black african's don't have weavy or straight hair and their eyes range from black - dark brown - brown.

---

quote:

---

This is an unfair question I'm not familiar with these regions.

---

quote:

---

Not true, the European Renaissance had its foundations on the cultures of ancient rome and greece.

---

quote:

---

No I'm speaking of the mongolian invasion ie. Gangis Khan and his decendents.

---

quote:

---

Is that why africa is the most backward continent on the planet. Is that why you can't even get regional organizations to run smoothly. There is no proof of african unity. How many african states united in order to stop the Islamic invasions. How many african's in any region united in order to stop colonisation?

---

Fact is Africa in its history accumulated this:



Before being reduced to this:



The same could have happened just as easily to Europe as it did Africa if certain circumstances in history had different results.

We might be arguing the Whiteness of Ancient Greek and Roman civilization at a time when much of Europe had been occupied by Mongols and the rest of the continent reduced to a 3rd world from colonialism and exploitation.
 

---

Posted by IIla (Member # 10772) on :
 

quote:

---

It depends on the region , but one thing is for certain black african's don't have weavy or straight hair and their eyes range from black - dark brown - brown.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

quote:

---

Can you say Cathar and Baltic?

---

That still doesn't change the fact that Europe united in order to war the Islamic world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

quote:

---

I fail to see how intercontinental conflict can be taken as a demonstration of unity.

---

The conflict itself isn't the proof of unity it's the alliances that were made.

---

quote:

---

... we share genes , culture and history. This is what makes us a real race, ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

quote:

---

Please lay out the unity of genes, culture, and history between the European populations of Denmark and the Peloponnesus or Rumania and Ireland.

---

This is an unfair question I'm not familiar with these regions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
How many african states united in order to stop the Islamic invasions?

---

quote:

---

Obviously you agree this is no evidence of European unity.

---

quote:

---

Dahhya alKahina united the entire Maghreb west of Tunisia across bounds
of ethnicity, religion, and foreign origin, in an attempt to counter the
initial Islamic conquest of North Africa.

---

quote:

---

relatively peaceful means (marriages between foreign
merchant men and local women producing a caste taking on the ways of their
fathers).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

They have a 'general' cultural and genetic unity. The Celts , for expample, ranged over much of what we know as Europe. Germanic tribes spread into the British Isles and Italy as well. Europes's internal migrations have been rather extensive.
Their problem has always been the lack of political and in past centuries, religious unity.

---

quote:

---

I do not see a two way split but Takruri is right about disunity in Europe. They almost destroyed themselves because of their lack of unity.

---

Indeed, there were many European peoples that could have attained very great power and influence if only they were united. A perfect example would be the Greeks. All of them shared ethnicity, language, and religion but were all divided politically into city-states with wars going on between these states. The only time the Greeks got along was when they were threatened by a foreign power like Persia. If the Greeks had united early on, they could have established a great empire, heck they already colonized much of the ancient world as it was!!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Another important thing to point out is that almost all the African nations are the result of European colonialism and hegemony and do NOT reflect the political, let alone ethnic reality of the natives who live there!!

The European nations for example, are based on ethnicity as well as native policy. Spain is the country of the Spaniards, France is the country of the French, Germany of Germans, Italy of Italians etc. etc. I could go on and on. Africa was the same way also, with nations and states created by the ethnic and political policies of the Natives. But when European came and conquered they created their own nations without any regard of native policies.

Again for those who are ignorant or unaware all the different groups of Africans you hear about are NOT tribes but ethnicities. The Yoruba of Nigeria are no more a 'tribe' than Spaniards and Ibo also of Nigeria are no more a 'tribe' than the French.

The problem is that both of these peoples have been juxtaposed by foreign conquerors as being "Nigerian". Unfortunately even many high status Nigerians who have culturally and mentally been colonized continue to propagate the great misconceived fallacy that the main social differences among their countrymen are "tribal" when in fact they are ethnic, and unwittingly continue the policy of their colonisers to do away with such differences! This is like telling Europeans to forget about their own ethnic differences and unite into a nation for pure political reasons only.

Ironically, this is exactly how some Europeans feel about the European Union. There are some Europeans who complain and feel that their ethnic identity is threatened!
 

---

Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
Djehuti, What I'm reallt talking about is stable government, building roads and infastructure and a better school system. Here is what people miss out on when it comes to colonialism....We can all accept that it is going to take western money (in some form) to develop third world nations. The problem is nothing is free. Why should I give money without recieving something in return? The point then is if colonialism had survived another 50 to 100 years the investment would have been greater in those areas.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^And apparently what YOU are missing or fail to comprehend in anyway is that most of these nations that are now 3rd world were not only stable already but were thriving until Europeans conquered and colonized them!!

There were nations in Africa that already had school systems and roads in place well before Europeans arrived!

Again, your ignorance of African history is very blatant and obvious.
 

---

Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
 
Horemheb I don't agree with this. Colonialism stole form the contries it did not put back nearly anything back into the countries. I think it was a good thing that colonialism was stopped when it was. The Problem with these countries is that they had Colonialism forced on them when they were doing just fine.

Peace
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^Right, King.

In fact, even to this day there persists a modern-day imperialism in the guise of 'globalism'! Many African nations do not even have control over their own resources and foreign companies are the ones who control the prices of their raw goods since these nations's finances are too poor to afford better price deals and they don't have the industries to process and refine these raw resources so they could sell them at higher prices! As rich as Africa is in natural resources, many countries are powerless in making enough profit from these resources...

And it all started because of European colonialism which destroyed the independent money-making powers of these African nations!!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
By the way Mikey, if you're still around, here is more evidence in the form of linguistics showing the unity among Africans:

Ehret: African Language Family Histories

That is if you're still around and did not punk out.
 

---

Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
 
We are getting off-topic again. The following thread is not about European Colonization or development in Africa but about the unity of Europeans. If you want to discuss the following then please open up another thread.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Michael

This your irrational emotive response, "There is no need to put fort any evidence,"
precludes further discussion with you on this matter as you place yourself out the
bounds of Cartesian reason. You have been soundly defeated, unable to produce
any objective support for your proposition of a genetic/cultural/historic European
unity.

Your statement about the Imazighen's complexion has nothing to do with Africans
uniting to resist Islamic invasion. What it does do is reveal your ignorance of
the full range of Amazigh skin tones and that at that period the Arabs classified
Imazighen of whatever colour among the blacks even though Gnawa of West Africa
viewed even the blackest Imazighen as red.

Neither rape nor slavery is responsible for the spread of Islam in East Africa.
You don't know the difference between modern Sudan and East Africa of 2500
to 1200 years ago from when the initial Arab-Zanj contact began to Islam's
expansion into continental Africa.

You don't want to learn or share ideas about Egypt and Africana, Micheal. Your
agenda is strictly racial and as outmoded as the discredited "true negro" concept
you've so poorly championed. I suspect soon enough you'll drop your sheet and
begin hurling anti-black pejoratives. It's just a matter of time.


The Moderator may as well lock this thread down. You can't defend your hypothesis
so why bother keeping the thread open any longer? Black-n-white stuff better fits
into other threads.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

quote:

---

Obviously you agree this is no evidence of European unity.

---

There is no need to put fort any evidence, the facts remain that Europe as a continent virtually conqured the whole world. It was the nations of germany and France who out of personal ambitions nearly destroyed Europe. Without the stupidity of Hitler, Europe today would be better off and so would Africa.

quote:

---

Dahhya alKahina united the entire Maghreb west of Tunisia across bounds
of ethnicity, religion, and foreign origin, in an attempt to counter the
initial Islamic conquest of North Africa.

---

For the most part the berbers weren't black then and they aren't black now.

quote:

---

relatively peaceful means (marriages between foreign
merchant men and local women producing a caste taking on the ways of their
fathers).

---

If you consider rape and slavery as a relatively peaceful form of conquest then yes you are right.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Michael

This your irrational emotive response, "There is no need to put fort any evidence,"
precludes further discussion with you on this matter as you place yourself out the
bounds of Cartesian reason. You have been soundly defeated, unable to produce
any objective support for your proposition of a genetic/cultural/historic European
unity.

Your statement about the Imazighen's complexion has nothing to do with Africans
uniting to resist Islamic invasion. What it does do is reveal your ignorance of
the full range of Amazigh skin tones and that at that period the Arabs classified
Imazighen of whatever colour among the blacks even though Gnawa of West Africa
viewed even the blackest Imazighen as red.

Neither rape nor slavery is responsible for the spread of Islam in East Africa.
You don't know the difference between modern Sudan and East Africa of 2500
to 1200 years ago from when the initial Arab-Zanj contact began to Islam's
expansion into continental Africa.

You don't want to learn or share ideas about Egypt and Africana, Micheal. Your
agenda is strictly racial and as outmoded as the discredited "true negro" concept
you've so poorly championed. I suspect soon enough you'll drop your sheet and
begin hurling anti-black pejoratives. It's just a matter of time.


The Moderator may as well lock this thread down. You can't defend your hypothesis
so why bother keeping the thread open any longer? Black-n-white stuff better fits
into other threads.

---

LMAO

Ding ding ding!!

And Mikey O' Canada has lost this debate!!

Sorry Mike, but better luck next time.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 
I think Mike deserves at least one attempt to come back "rationally" with "answers" - no?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
The guy has had many chances, but we shall see...
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
4 whole days and 100 posts since I requested his supporting evidence and
he's posted 3 times with fluff. What more does he deserve? He's just good
for cat-n-mouse not a serious exchange between opposing sides each backed
with data that makes each side as valid as the other's interpretation.

But we're not locked down yet, so ....

And, he can always start his own thread
 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
He's just good for cat-n-mouse

---

Not really.

That's why I ignore him. In basketball parlance - he's a 'self check'.

Just let him shoot.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^LMFO
 

---

Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
 

quote:

---

You have been soundly defeated, unable to produce any objective support for your proposition of a genetic/cultural/historic European
unity.

---

quote:

---

Christian Europeans united to seize Israel from Muslim rule. There was no united European front and as Al Takuri's point was that many regions of Europe were occupied by Muslims at the time who did not support and even resisted the crusades.

---

quote:

---

You aim to prove European unity by showing Europeans allying against other Europeans?

---

quote:

---

Those cultures had their foundations in Ancient Egypt and Mesopatamia.

---

quote:

---

Ghengis Khan's empire was primarily situated in Central Asia and not an imminent threat to Europe, his descendants did invade Poland and parts of Eastern Europe but there was no major campaign to subdue Europe that would cause mass resistance from the Western kingdoms.

---

quote:

---

Neither rape nor slavery is responsible for the spread of Islam in East Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

Then explain to me how europe was able to colonise the world.

---

quote:

---

Mike:
It still doesn't change the fact that the Renaissance had its roots in those cultures.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

well, I suppose if you think the creation of the modern world is going "downhill" then you make a point. Would you rather we still lived in the 10th century?

---

Actually Hore, I think what Tee meant was that the other civilizations went downhill when Europeans set up their global hegemony.

I find it rather bias but unsurprising that you continuously attribute the formation of "the modern world" to Europeans only. Again, may I remind you that African wealth and Asian technology was what helped Europe get "to its feet" and thus create the 'modern world' in the first place.
 

---

Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
 
Nothing takes place in a vacuum Djehuti and thus you make a point. the reformation and the establishment of the spanish Empire after 1500 contributed much more however. i mentioned some of that on a post higher up on this thread.
The emergence of Europe after 1500 is a tremendous subject and the amount of literature avilable is staggering. It is no doubt the biggest event in all of history to this point and worth of much of our attention.
i think language and religion also had a good bit to do with it as well as new systems of finance developed by the British in the 18th century.
 

---

Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

Supercar, More important to the creation of colonialism was the wealth that poured into Europe following the establishment of the spanish Empire after 1492

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

Keep in mind that prior to 1500 Europe was a very static society.

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

The was very little dynamic at work due to the rigid social structure and the control of the Catholic church.

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

The influx of new wealth broke down the social structure and the Protestant reformation destroyed the hold of the church on European institutions.

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

Both of these events led to the development of capitalism which gave Europe a huge advantage over others sections of the world.

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

The importance of Arab/Islamic knowledge seeping into Europe is real but should not be over estimated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

what happeneded in neolithic times is not important to this discussion.

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

I think I stated that pre 1500 Europe was not a dynamic society.

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

The opening of the what historians call the 'frontier' after 1500 poured wealth into europe that changed the social structure,

---

quote:

---

Horemheb:

...made the reformation possible and led, in a couple of centuries to the industrial revolution and the creation of what we call the modern world.
For historical purposes I am not the least bit interested in who became slaves and who was at fault or who was abused. an accurate discription of the period simply looks at what happened and reports it. What changed because of the events of history and what stayed the same.

---

quote:

---

b) Ancient China also did not create its civilization based upon the exploitation of foreign peoples; it too was self-sustaining and self-created; in fact, China built a wall to keep foreign peoples out of its civilization (as did Egypt with fortresses in the north)...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:

This is all idealistic utopian crap. Again wally, moral posturing has no place in the examination of history.
Black Africans gathered up their own people and sold them into slavery to white slave traders. If you want to understand history...follow the money.

---

quote:

---

Have you actually read chinese history or is this just another effort to slam the west...

---

quote:

---

..By the way, you are a member of western civilization yourself and owe everything you have from your language to your underware to it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Chinese civilization was built on the exploitation of foriegn people. These foreign people were called Qiang. This group was used as slaves, along with the li min "Black Heads", founders of the Xia and Shang civilization to create the wealth of the Zhou civilization. The founders of the Zhou civilization were called Hua, they rule China today.

---

quote:

---

Again, you bring up that the first Chinese kings were black. Is there any evidence of this??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
... the Chinese of which there are no black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Pay attention Djehuti, I was talking about the African slave trade after 1500. Again, blacks sold other blacks to European slave traders.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Djehuti

OK, now that this thread has concluded its subject header due to
its indefensible nature, I wonder about something.

I once dated a little Indonesian hottie who told me that of course her
folk were "foreign immigrants" there and ethnically were "white Chinese."

I don't know if this is solely an Indonesian thing but she obviously
was refering to her pale white transluscent skin. So, if there are
"white Chinese" are there not "black Chinese?"

Don't the Tcheu-Li documents (12th-3rd cent. BCE) speak of diminutive
folk with black oily skin on Taiwan?

Was Lao-tzse born of a virgin black in colour and beautiful as jasper?

What of Liu-Nan's mention (2nd cent. BCE) of a kingdom of diminutive
black skins in southwest China?

Doesn't the Chiu T'ang Shu say that the people south of Lin-yi have
both wooly hair and black skin?

What of the empress Li's, consort of Hsiao Wu Wen, descriptions as a black?

Or the 200,000 strong Nakhi?

Maybe these are all chimeras, what can you tell me about the above?

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Wally

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b) Ancient China also did not create its civilization based upon the exploitation of foreign peoples; it too was self-sustaining and self-created; in fact, China built a wall to keep foreign peoples out of its civilization (as did Egypt with fortresses in the north)...

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Chinese civilization was built on the exploitation of foriegn people. These foreign people were called Qiang. This group was used as slaves, along with the li min "Black Heads", founders of the Xia and Shang civilization to create the wealth of the Zhou civilization. The founders of the Zhou civilization were called Hua, they rule China today.



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Originally posted by Djehuti:


This is not to say that there weren't any true black people in those parts of Asia.

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Oh, I date within my race, the human race. There's little alTakruri
bastards running around on every continent (including Antartica) and
most of the islands. It's my plan for the alTakruri conquest of the planet.

Clan alTakruri is here, BOW DOWN!!!

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Originally posted by African_Bible_Expert:
I once dated a little Indonesian hottie who told me that of course her
folk were "foreign immigrants" there and ethnically were "white Chinese."

See this is what really burns me up about self hating African Americans. On one hand when someone says Egyptians were either not black or mixed you get furious, yet you date out of your race and don't like your own women!!!!!! wtf is that. You cannot succeed as a culture and have your own genders divided like that. So I guess African American women aren't pretty cuz of those evil African features(yet yall claim to be African scholars) but you BEG for these features when you are posting Egyptian statues and glyphs. You African Americans really embarras we non-African American blacks because you seem to be the only ones that hate yourselves. It's really disgusting and even though I like the posts from Alktruri I really wasn't surprised he dates out of his race which is disappointing, but oh well. All I am saying is it really doesn't make sense from an objective perspective.

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All that division, PLUS not being able to get your hands on the gun. That's GOT to really screw you over.

Most often times during the Slave Trade one African state/tribe/group would not help another defend itself against foreigners because they saw themselves as unique and different. Imperialist Europeans would play this up by giving one group/tribe guns thus giving them incentive to attack another group for slaves ala the slave TRAAAAADE.

That's why I don;t know why Africans get pissed at Black Americans, It's not our Fault we're in America LMAO.

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Can anyone tell me about the Mamelukes. Weren't they "white" slaves tot he Arabs.

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I'm glad this discussion has moved away from questioning the unity of europeans. Europe may not be completely united but we are far more united than any other continent in the world.

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
I'm glad this discussion has moved away from questioning the unity of europeans.

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I agree. But the burden of Europe is Nationalism/Tribalism. I fear that it is only a matter of time it will raise its ugly head again and another war will break out.

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To keep Europe unified, you have to keep the Germans happy.

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Your emotional stance of European unity of genes, culture, and
history, had no rational evidence to back it up. Even after narrowing it down to just two examples, Danes and Greeks or Romani and Irish, you still presented no data. That's why we're not discussing it.

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
... Europeans ... share genes , culture and history. This is what makes us a real race,

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:



First off, I didn't bring up the topic it was idiots like you who were questioning European unity.

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Mikey o canada, still hasn't listed anything substantial that would back up his claims on Europe.

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...Europeans share genes, culture, and history...

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He hasn't specified what these genes, culture, or even history that unifies them.

I feel so sorry for the guy, that even though it's cheating I'll offer just a little help.

On the 'genes' part of your claim I will just say R1. You can figure out the rest of what that means..
 

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Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
 

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Again, the little part of Europe once known as Yugoslavia is today's most pertinent example of European disunity.

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Yugoslavia is more of an example of why turkey shouldn't be allowed into the EU.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^^But Turkey is NOT in Europe while Yugoslavia IS!!

LOL You shot yourself in the face with that statement!
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The guy's obviously not playing with a full deck, nor has he all
four burners. He's not cooking with gas (or electric for that matter).

Not implying that he's personally toys in the attic, just that
as regards to the straight dope on Europe he makes Dopey
look like Dexter.
 

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Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
 

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^^^But Turkey is NOT in Europe while Yugoslavia IS!! LOL [Big Grin] You shot yourself in the face with that statement!

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On the 'genes' part of your claim I will just say R1. You can figure out the rest of what that means..

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He hasn't specified what these genes, culture, or even history that unifies them.

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

Why should I, I know who's white and who isn't.

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Culture:

How many times do I have to bring up the fact that European culture is centered around old Roman(as well as Greek) culture and Christianity.

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History:

Crusades, Mongol invasion, renaissance and colonisation.

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So your saying invasion of foreigners was your only commonality in history..?

You should have accepted my help,.. but if you want to do it on your own and struggle then be my guest..
 

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Posted by MichaelFromQuebec (Member # 10907) on :
 

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how can we believe that when you apparently don't even know who's black and who isn't!

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try to compare the Egyptian man to a light-skinned girl who obviously has mixed ancestry even though the Egyptian man was very dark in color and as darker than many African Americans!

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So what your saying is basically the diffusion of influence from one or a couple of cultures to other cultures that had nothing in common..?

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So your saying invasion of foreigners was your only commonality in history..?

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:
It's difficult when you claim anybody with a tan is black, irregardless of how they define themselves.

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The fact that we were able to put our differences aside long enough to subdue the world is proof of our unity.

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There is no doubt that Europe made political advancements to create a social enviroment in which multiple powers could get along and subdue other groups without fierce conflict (e.g. the Berlin Conference).

However there is no United States of Europe.

There is a peninsula/continent with many countries, cultures and ethnic groups.

And regardless of recent historial unity there are no longer any world super powers in Europe, it is itself not a world power.

What does any of this have to do with Ancient Egypt?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

It's difficult when you claim anybody with a tan is black, irregardless of how they define themselves.

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Now who is the one suffering from dementia here?!!
You can't possibly be saying that the gentleman below is merely "tanned"!!



And again, how one 'defines' himself is besides the point. There are Sudanese who are just as dark as Africans from Senegal or the Congo yet refer to themselves as "green"!!

Your denial is just as gross as Hore's.

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What does being darker than many African American's have to do with anything.

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The fact that we were able to put our differences aside long enough to subdue the world is proof of our unity.

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LOL Europeans never "subdued the world" as a team. During the Age of Imperialism there was always competition between the various European nations and even wars and disputes between them to see who would take control of which foreign nation. Again you shoot yourself in the face!

over a 150 posts and still you have nothing.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
MichaelFromQuebec:

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Culture:

How many times do I have to bring up the fact that European culture is centered around old Roman(as well as Greek) culture and Christianity.

History:

Crusades, Mongol invasion, renaissance and colonisation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Now who is the one suffering from dementia here?!! You can't possibly be saying that the gentleman below is merely "tanned"!!

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There are Sudanese who are just as dark as Africans from Senegal or the Congo yet refer to themselves as "green"!!

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Europeans never "subdued the world" as a team. During the Age of Imperialism there was always competition between the various European nations and even wars and disputes between them to see who would take control of which foreign nation.

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Are you saying the Mongols were "White/ Europeans"?

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Moreover, much of the culture attributed to the Greeks and Romans was of African origin, especially the religions (gods), arts and
sciences

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Originally posted by MichaelFromQuebec:

That man isn't black get over it.

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Then what is he then, white??! He certainly isn't "tanned"!! LOL

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??? You're going to have to tell me what green means.

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They had disputes but their conquest went with relative ease. If you look at the colonisation of africa, there was only one incident where europeans ALMOST fought.

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Irrelevant to your claims of European 'unity'.

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No!! During the mongol invasion European knights from all over the continent went to the east to defend it against the mongols.

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There is no denying that those cultures were influenced by the Egyptians but it still doesn't make them any less European. No one in this world lives in a vacum we're all influenced by eachother.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Are you saying the Mongols were "White/ Europeans"?...

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It's no different from saying the Shang Chinese were Black/Africans!
 

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