In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence in- dicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
Tellem Cliff Dwellings from West Africa
The most common signs found in Mandeland and the American southwest are habitation signs painted in red at Anasazi. These signs agree with Mande signs along the Niger river in Africa.
The Malian ships or canoes plowing down the NIger were operated by the Bozo and Sorko fishermen. The Bozo lived along the western arm of the Niger bend. The Sorko people, who spoke Songhay language submitted to Manding rule. The Bozo and Sorko, were the masters of the Niger river transport.
Mande Sewn Boat Many of the ships of the NIger could carry burdens of 60-80 tons. These canoes were ninety to one hundred feet long. The men usually sat three abreast with ease. Around forty men paddled.
Other canoes were joined together. These canoes were forty feet long and five feet across. These jointed boats were mainly navigated by the Bozo. In addition to canoes the fishermen along the Niger built rope sewn plank boats ninety to one hundred feet long.
Around A.D. 1310, thousands of Manding speakers arrived in the Americas from ancient Mali. Ibn Fadlullah al- Umari, in his encyclopedia "Masalik al Absar", said the mariners from Mali during the reign of Abubakari made transatlantic voyages. Al-Umari, obtained his information from Mansa Musa, who was handed the kingship of Mali by Abubakari when he set out to colonize the Americas.
Mansa Musa, said that Mansa Abubakari would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighboring sea (the Atlantic). Musa, told al-Umari that:"so he sent out 200 ships equipped and filled with men and the same number filled with gold, water and enough food to last them for years. Muhammad Abubakari, commanded that the captain not return until the supplies were exhausted".
After sometime, according to Mansa Musa, a single ship returned and the captain was ordered to report his findings. "Prince", he replied "we sailed for a long time up to the moment when we encountered in mid-Ocean something like a river with a violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on...they disappeared and did not come back".
"But the Emperor[Abubakari] did not believe him", continued Musa,"He equipped two thousand vessels, a thousand for himself, and a thousand for water and supplies. He conferred power on me [Mansa Musa] and left with his companions on the ocean".
The expeditionary force of Mansa Abubakari, must have been immense, because the average boat on the Niger, in the 1500's A.D., could carry 80 men. This means that anywhere between 25,000 to 80,000 men may have sailed from Mali along with Mansa Abubakari.
The mention of a violent current in mid-ocean by Abubakari's captain may refer to the Atlantic ocean currents which can carry a boat from Africa to the Americas.
We can hypothesize that Abubakari and his expeditionary force probably left the city of Niani, by canoe and traveled down the NIger to the Gulf of Guinea. From here the expeditionary force was probably carried by the Guinea Current out into the Atlantic where it met the South Equatorial Current. The South Equatorial Current carried the Mali explorers to Brazil.
Abubakari's ships would not be the last vessels to be carried to Brazil. For example, in 1500 , Alvares Cabral's ship was captured by the North Equatorial Current and swiftly taken to Brazil.
In Mexico the Malian wanders are depicted in the Mixtec Codex Dorenberg (fourtenth century). These migrates are bearded, they have large noses and lips, and are represented with black skins. In addition,to the Codex Dorenberg they are also seen in the Codex Tro, with staff or spear in hand, feathered headdresses, polished earrings, cloaks and loincloths made of the finest woven cotton. They wore arm and wrist bands, and small white shells on their ankles which rattled as they walked , usually in groups of two's or three's.
In Mexico, due to previous cultural development the Manding found large heavily populated Indian communities. Therefore the Malian colonists did not establish any large communities in Mexico, but they were active traders and are remembered for their merchandise.
The are Mexican traditions of groups of foreigners moving northward throughout the early 14th century. These men probably formed the vanguard of a larger body of Malians which probably entered Mexico in 1325, and fought the Mexicans around this time for land to settle. The battle of these Africans and Amerindians, is seen in the legend of a battle between an eagle and a serpent and the choice of the site of the battle as the place to build Mexico's Tenochititlan. The serpent is the totem of the Manding, it therefore probably represents the Malian forces, and the eagles the Amerindians. Among these foreign migratory groups it is reported in Amerindian traditions that they took the practice of agriculture and pottery making to the Chichimecs, and helped design and build the houses around Lake Texcoco in 1327.
ANASAZI
The Manding mentioned in the Mexican traditions of 1325, may represent the founders of Anasazi civilization of Four Corners section of the United States. Anasazi, is a Navajo word which means "Ancient Ones" for the founders of the spectacular cliff dwellings and great multistoried pueblos erected on open plains near the San Juan, Salt and Little Colorado rivers. Although American anthropologists accept the theory that the Amerindians entered North America across the Bering Strait about 20000-15000 years ago , the Hopis, on the contrary say their ancestors crossed the sea during their emergence to this present Fourth World, arriving somewhere along the coast of Mexico or Central America, then gradually worked their way northward to settle in their present homes in the Four Corners region.
They call the original inhabitants of the cliff dwellings "Ancient Ones". These Anasazi were probably Manding speakers. The ruins of their great stone cities are crouched low on the Mesa tops or nestled in caves along the sheer canyon walls of this high desert region. These stone cities are exact replicas of stone cities cliff dwellings found in West African areas that formerly formed part of the Mali empire, especially the Dogon towns.
In what is now known as Four Corners region where the states of Utah, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona come together at a common point the Anasazi tilled the earth and even irrigated their crops, and stored some of the harvest for later use.
Palatki Cliff Dwellings. The Palatki cliff dwellings are similar to the Tellem Cliff Houses. Malian Cliff Dwellings from Tellem
The Malians left many inscriptions in the Southwestern part of the United States. The presence of Manding in Four Corners, is supported by the appearance of Dogon and Bambara ideograms, called petroglyphs, on rocks in the Anasazi area. Moreover, there are several tablets found in Four Corners which have been deciphered that were written in an aspect of Malinke.
The Pilatki inscriptions is also written in Manding not Sanskrit. Below we see the following signs. The Malinke inscriptions were read from right to left. Top to bottom. There are five Malinke or Mande signs on the Palatki inscriptions. The inscription says:
Be
su i se
Se Gyo/Jo
The English translation is as follows: “Exist here a superior place Of habitation. Make (this) place a success, consecrated to the Divinity”
In conclusion, in 1310 thousands of Malians arrived in the Americas. Many of these Malians settled throughout South America and the American Southwest where they left numerous inscriptions written in the Malinke Bambara language that was spoken by the Malian court.
The Palatki inscription is written in the Mande language not Sanskrit. This inscription describes the picturesque setting where the Palatki inscription and cave dwellings were found.
Due to the spread of nomadic Amerindians from the northwest,the Anasazi were forced from their stone cities and cliff dwellings by the invaders. There was probably some intermarriage between Africans and Amerindians and today we see a negroid strain among the southwestern Amerindian populations. In addition many African communities were found in the Southwest when Europeans arrived in this part of the United States.
.
Posted by Horemheb (Member # 3361) on :
Not a single legit pre columbian scholar agrees with this stuff.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Archways and rhombuses for protection:
Zulu
Taiwanese
Dwellings:
Beehive-like Zulu straw homes
Beehive-like Celtic stone home
Mongolian yurt
Bovine horn decoration:
on a Zulu home
on an Ifugao (Filipino) home Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
That's some good stuff Clyde! Though, it would undoubtedly be very contreversial. But like I said, Roman items were found off the coast of Brazil...so. Plus, it is a known fact that the mid-Atlantic current swings you right to Brazil and the area around there. The only way you avoid that is with sails.
You said there are inscriptions saying Abubakari left Mali to travel across the ocean? If so, that's what you call corroborating evidence.
quote:Not a single legit pre columbian scholar agrees with this stuff.
Scholars don't agree with lots of things until they're proven wrong. At one point, scholars didn't believe the Ancients had the ability to across the Atlantic ocean until somebody (forgot his name) made a replica of some ancient ship and did it!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
King-Scorpion
quote:
You said there are inscriptions saying Abubakari left Mali to travel across the ocean? If so, that's what you call corroborating evidence.
The information on Muhammad Abubakari's voyage in search of America comes from Arabic documents. After the Malians came to America they left many inscriptions written in Mande to tell the colonist the best place to settle.
The Palatki inscriptions and other Mande inscriptions in the Four Corners region of the American Southwest, and the tradition that a Mande tribe formerly lived in thie region support Mande speaking people in Anasazi region.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
OK, once again here's the translation of the source of all we definitely know about Mali officially seeking to find what lay beyond the empire's sunset into the Atlantic, probably from Senegal doubtfully from Nigeria.
quote: Says ibn Amir Hajib “I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years. He told those who commanded them: return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their adventure. Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, gradually each entered this place, they disappeared and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where I was and did not enter that current.
But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped 2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master of the empire”.
Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans Masilik el Absar Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927 74-5
The text precedes any "pre-Columbian" scholar or scholarship by a good 400 years. Any such "scholars" would be fools to suggest no such text exists or is relevent to African presence in the Americas under their own power not as objects of or participants in other people's ventures across the Atlantic.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
^ Good stuff.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK, once again here's the translation of the source of all we definitely know about Mali officially seeking to find what lay beyond the empire's sunset into the Atlantic, probably from Senegal doubtfully from Nigeria.
quote: Says ibn Amir Hajib “I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years. He told those who commanded them: return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their adventure. Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, gradually each entered this place, they disappeared and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where I was and did not enter that current.
But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped 2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master of the empire”.
Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans Masilik el Absar Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927 74-5
The text precedes any "pre-Columbian" scholar or scholarship by a good 400 years. Any such "scholars" would be fools to suggest no such text exists or is relevent to African presence in the Americas under their own power not as objects of or participants in other people's ventures across the Atlantic.
So this is yet more corroborating evidence of African seafaring...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...even though this happened many years after the Olmec came around.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
How does an event of ~1350 CE -- 3,000 years after the commencement of Olmec civ -- give weight to them being connected to 1400 BCE Africa?
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: How does and event ~1350 CE -- 3,000 years after the commencement of Olmec civ -- give weight to them being connected to 1400 BCE Africa?
I said it gives weight to West African seafaring. I even said this happened afterward...so what are YOU talking about?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
It does...it shows it was possible. Realize that tribes use many of the same techniques over many generations. The boats Clyde describe are very simple and durable...just like the Ra boats.
Takuri, what is your position on this? Do you believe it is outright impossible...or are you just skeptical?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ I hate to echo Hore but what's 'possible' is different from what WAS!
It's also possible for the Chinese to colonize East Africa as we have evidence of seafaring expiditions there!
Also, what about the example pictures I provided showing the similarities between the Zulus and other disparate cultures?? This is exactly what Clyde does.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Djehuti
quote:
Also, what about the example pictures I provided showing the similarities between the Zulus and other disparate cultures?? This is exactly what Clyde does.
This is not what I have done. I did three things 1) I pointed out that Abubakari probably made a voyage on the Atlantic and sailed to America;2) there are Mande inscriptions in the Four Corner region of the American Southwest; and 3) some of the citizens of Mali were the Dogon who built cliff dwellings.
Since some of the Malians were Dogon, it suggested that they may have continued this architectual practice in the American Southwest. This provided contexts for my discussion of Malians in the Anasazi region.
Your comparison of Zulu house building techniques and house building techniques in other parts of the world have no contexts so your presentation lacks any validity or reliability.
.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ I hate to echo Hore but what's 'possible' is different from what WAS!
It's also possible for the Chinese to colonize East Africa as we have evidence of seafaring expiditions there!
Also, what about the example pictures I provided showing the similarities between the Zulus and other disparate cultures?? This is exactly what Clyde does.
So Djehuti...what do you make of the Mande script the Olmecs used then? I'm not saying this theory is leak-proof and irrefutable...but to act as if it was impossible in light of what Winters has said (which is very intriguing to say the least), shows that you have no intent to even acknowledge the theory or take it into consideration. And here I thought you were open-minded.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
You can't use nautical evidence separated by 3,000 years to assume anything. For example, that submarines exist today does not weigh in as support for the lands who today have submarines had them 3,000 years ago in 1000 BCE.
Bubakari's fleet didn't use papyrus vessels. They were wooden. The Dafuna canoe is a pre-historic artifact of proto-solid body water craft in south central Sahara.
GOOGLE has seriously rehauled its archive of our ES and NILEVALLEY forum but I will search for what little I posted on the Dafuna canoe.
And yes I'm extremely skeptical of protoSoninke 2nd millenium BCE full fleeted expedtion across the Atlantic to MesoAmerica, as any serious scholar or student outside of dogmatic fantasy idealogy must be.
There's plenty of sane Africana to spend time on and disseminate to a world that mostly holds only negative myths about African accomplishments.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
It does...it shows it was possible. Realize that tribes use many of the same techniques over many generations. The boats Clyde describe are very simple and durable...just like the Ra boats.
Takuri, what is your position on this? Do you believe it is outright impossible...or are you just skeptical?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:So Djehuti...what do you make of the Mande script the Olmecs used?
There is no agreement to the effect that Olmec writing has any relationship to the Vai script:
The Epi-Olmec script turned out to be structurally similar to the Maya. It is logophonetic, meaning that one set of the signs, the phonograms, have phonetic values, while the other glyphs, called logograms, represents morpheme. A morpheme is a word or part of a word that cannot be broken further into smaller units with relevant meaning. For instance, the English word beautiful can be broken down into beauty and -ful, neither of which can be broken down further. Beauty is a morpheme because it is a word. Furthermore, -ful carries the meaning of "a lot of", and can also be used with other words, like bountiful, faithful, and others. Hence it is not a unique derivation of beauty, but a morpheme in its own right.
In a logophonetic system, both logograms and phonograms are used. Frequently logograms make up the root of a word whereas phonograms spell out the prefixes and suffixes that modify the root.
The most distinguishable feature of all Mesoamerican scripts is the highly intricate and pictorial form of signs. They are often called "hieroglyphic" in analogy to Egyptian hieroglyphs since their symbols are highly pictorial. For this reason, a sign from a Mesoamerican scripts is often called a "glyph", as a short form of "hieroglyph". Visually, Mesoamerican scripts resemble each other, and share many similar glyphs. This is primarily due to the fact that many Mesoamerican glyphs bear resemblance to real objects such as animals, people, natural features, etc, albeit in a stylized fashion. Often animals and humans appear as "portraits" in that only the heads of these creatures are drawn, but in few cases "full-body" glyphs are also used. Human body parts, especially arms and legs, are also used extensively to denote action, or verbs if used as grammatical structures. Other times glyphs appear as complex geometrical shapes like circles, rectangles, cross-hatches, etc. http://www.ancientscripts.com/ma_ws.html Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Rasol
quote:
quote:So Djehuti...what do you make of the Mande script the Olmecs used?
There is no agreement to the effect that Olmec writing has any relationship to the Vai script:
The Epi-Olmec script turned out to be structurally similar to the Maya. It is logophonetic, meaning that one set of the signs, the phonograms, have phonetic values, while the other glyphs, called logograms, represents morpheme. A morpheme is a word or part of a word that cannot be broken further into smaller units with relevant meaning.
This discussion of Epi Olmec is invalid. There is no such thing as Epi-Olmec all of the Olmec writing, is Olmec writing.
The alleged decipherment of Epi-Olmec has proven to be a hoax. This was proven when researchers tried to use the decipherment of this writing to read the Teo Mask.
A mysterious ancient stone mask from Mexico has spoken — but apparently only to say that its people's written language remains undeciphered.BYU's Stephen Houston holds a copy of ancient script from Mexico. He disagrees with claims that "Teo Mask" words have been deciphered.
A study by Brigham Young University archaeologist Stephen Houston and his colleague from Yale University, Michael D. Coe, say the mask disproves earlier claims that the language had been cracked.
Their paper is to be published in "Mexicon," a journal about news and research from Mesoamerica. The title is "Has Isthmian Writing Been Deciphered?"
The "Teo Mask" may be about 1,600 to 1,900 years old. It was carved in a hard, greenish stone. The inside surface is covered with mysterious hieroglyphs.
In 1993, two researchers — John S. Justeson of the State University of New York, Albany, and Terrence Kaufman of the University of Pittsburgh, both anthropology professors — claimed in the journal Science that they had deciphered that written language.
Kaufman and Justeson call the writing "epi-Olmec script." However, Houston and Coe term it "Isthmian" because it was written by people who lived on and around Mexico's Isthmus of Tehuantepec. They date to within five centuries before and after A.D. 1.
Kaufman and Justeson said they had deciphered the writings based on semantic clues associated with known cultural practices and a similarity of the hieroglyphs to other writings in the region that had been deciphered.
They claimed to be able to read the earliest writings known from North America, inscriptions on large stone carvings called stela found in Veracruz, Mexico. The dates on the stones, they added, were A.D. 159 and A.D. 162.
The announcement made international headlines. But Houston and Coe doubt anyone can read the script.
Houston, an anthropology professor who is an expert on ancient Mesoamerica, won a John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Fellowship in 2002. When he attended Yale, he was a student of Coe's."Teo Mask" writings appear on the inside of the mask. In 1993, two researchers asserted that they had deciphered the language.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You can't use nautical evidence separated by 3,000 years to assume anything. For example, that submarines exist today does not weigh in as support for the lands who today have submarines had them 3,000 years ago in 1000 BCE.
Bubakari's fleet didn't use papyrus vessels. They were wooden. The Dafuna canoe is a pre-historic artifact of proto-solid body water craft in south central Sahara.
GOOGLE has seriously rehauled its archive of our ES and NILEVALLEY forum but I will search for what little I posted on the Dafuna canoe.
And yes I'm extremely skeptical of protoSoninke 2nd millenium BCE full fleeted expedtion across the Atlantic to MesoAmerica, as any serious scholar or student outside of dogmatic fantasy idealogy must be.
There's plenty of sane Africana to spend time on and disseminate to a world that mostly holds only negative myths about African accomplishments.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
It does...it shows it was possible. Realize that tribes use many of the same techniques over many generations. The boats Clyde describe are very simple and durable...just like the Ra boats.
Takuri, what is your position on this? Do you believe it is outright impossible...or are you just skeptical?
Then you don't know your history of seafaring. Listen, I'm skeptical...just not as skeptical as you. I'm what you can call, pleasantly intrigued. Humans have been sailing for thousands of years...when you look at a continent like Australia that is totally separated from any landmass by many miles, what do you see? People have been living on that continent for who knows how long and how do you think they got there? They sailed. It would help me to know whether or not you're a diffusionist or isolationist? I'm a diffusionist (not hyper-diffusionist though), so it's easier for someone like me to fathom this.
Also, are you familiar with the so-called "Cocaine Mummies?" In 1992, a toxicologist named Svetla Balabanova discovered that 9 mummies (ranging from periods of 1070 BC-395 AD) tested positive for cocaine and hashish. Now the hashish is not suprising, but tell me how the Ancient Egyptians could have obtained coca and tobacco plants that were supposedly unknown outside of America before Columbus? When she conducted tests, she found nicotine INSIDE the mummies hair shafts, where it can only show up after metabolization.
Then, British researchers found the same thing in a separate case in 1996. Now, there are only two explanations...either the AE had access to some unknown and now extinct plants in the Old World, bearing high concentrations of cocaine, or they must have had trade contact with America. While neither seem very probable...you can't say it's impossible or a fantasy that the Ancients could have sailed long distances.
EDIT: I'm typing this while half sleap and I've had a few drinksso I apologize if this doesn't make much sense
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Who posted here the rock art of Australia showing they used boats to get to that continent in the first place?
Yes please get some shut eye and write back when you're rejuvenated.
Rest well.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The announcement made international headlines. But Houston and Coe doubt anyone can read the script.
Can you read this script, Dr. Winters?
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who posted here the rock art of Australia showing they used boats to get to that continent in the first place?
Yes please get some shut eye and write back when you're rejuvenated.
Rest well.
And when was that done? Some 50,000-40,000 years ago? Yet you claim it's fantasy that West Africans could have traveled to the Americas when I've provided examples of other cultures doing it.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Rasol
quote: quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The announcement made international headlines. But Houston and Coe doubt anyone can read the script.
Can you read this script, Dr. Winters?
Yes I deciphered the Teo Mask, right after I discovered its existence.
At this site you can read about many of the Olmec Kings.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Pray tell where did I say West Africans never made their way to the Americas?
What purpose do you seek to serve by putting out such a lie about me?
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who posted here the rock art of Australia showing they used boats to get to that continent in the first place?
Yes please get some shut eye and write back when you're rejuvenated.
Rest well.
And when was that done? Some 50,000-40,000 years ago? Yet you claim it's fantasy that West Africans could have traveled to the Americas when I've provided examples of other cultures doing it.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Takruri
quote: Statement 24 May 12:59 am
Pray tell where did I say West Africans never made their way to the Americas?
What purpose do you seek to serve by putting out such a lie about me?
quote:
Statement 23 May 11:18 pm
And yes I'm extremely skeptical of protoSoninke 2nd millenium BCE full fleeted expedtion across the Atlantic to MesoAmerica, as any serious scholar or student outside of dogmatic fantasy idealogy must be.
.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
What moron doesn't know that 2nd millenium BCE protoSoninke is not equal to all of West Africa throughout all time?
The serious scholar or student after perusing the translation of the Arabic text transcribing an interview with Mansa Gonga Musa that I provided in this very thread (see above 23 May, 2006 05:13 PM) will surmise that 2nd millenium CE Soninke who are, by the way, West Africans did make their way to the Americas.
I remain steadfast in my original statement to the group on this matter.
quote:While cognizant that there were voyages, whether intentional or accidental across the Atlantic to the Americas by various Old World peoples, I remain skeptical of unsubstantiated claims. Claims that tend to detract and serve to undermine verifed and verifiable accomplishments of African peoples their cultures, civilization, and history, particularly the West African empires of Mali and Songhai whose outlying provinces where the ones involved in trans-Atlantic ventures.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Zulu influence!
quote:: Archways and rhombuses for protection:
Zulu
Taiwanese
Dwellings:
Beehive-like Zulu straw homes
Beehive-like Celtic stone home
Mongolian yurt
Bovine horn decoration:
on a Zulu home
on an Ifugao (Filipino) home
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
TROLL ALERT ABOVE....
Djehuti...are you a diffusionist of isolationist? Are your troll pics are stupid because those homes look nothing alike! You would think that when somebody trolled they would at least be a little more convincing. But nahh, you're suffering from Horedrome!!!
Posted by Charm El Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
i once knew a diffusionist of isolationist... he lived under a bridge and wouldnt let anyone pass...
no wait...
he lived alone but expanded into the available air space...
no wait.. that was a troll...
...
either way, he stank.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm El Feikh?: i once knew a diffusionist of isolationist... he lived under a bridge and wouldnt let anyone pass...
no wait...
he lived alone but expanded into the available air space...
no wait.. that was a troll...
...
either way, he stank.
I'll bite...
What did he smell like?
Posted by Charm El Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
hot Vaseline, smoking crack and coconut...
he was a black troll...
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm El Feikh?: hot Vaseline, smoking crack and coconut...
he was a black troll...
What did he look like? Was he tall? Short? Fat? Skinny? Paint a picture for me...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: TROLL ALERT ABOVE....
Djehuti...are you a diffusionist of isolationist? Are your troll pics are stupid because those homes look nothing alike! You would think that when somebody trolled they would at least be a little more convincing. But nahh, you're suffering from Horedrome!!!
What are you talking about?? Those homes all have the same dome ('bee-hive') shape.
And in anyway, I am merely going by Clyde's methods in showing relation through similarities.
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Not a single legit pre columbian scholar agrees with this stuff.
I felt it necessary to chime in with a somewhat alternative perpsective on these issues.
Have you ever stopped to consider the possiblity that black people existed as an autochthonous stock on every continent including the Americas?
After all, it is less problematic to suggest that the first people had dark skin and Negritic features, that they utlized a lower sea-level to colonize all habitable continents after a would be ice age, than to suggest that people from Africa had the nautical technology to establish colonies across the doldrums.
There are evidences (scant, rare) which promote this possibility. If you can get your hands on these books: The Black Book. Middleton Harris New York: Random House, 1974, The Primitive Black Nations of America Rafinesque 1833, "Journey to Esplandian" Ordonez de Montalvo, you will quickly appreciate that the Black Olmecs were just one of many black nations to have been established in the Americas long before Columbus arrived there.
Furthermore, the classical Native Americans of purported "Mongoloid" stock themselves encapsulate this idea within their languages. Many tribes have words or phrases which indicate the existence of a former race, or an original native people whom the "Indians" themselves succeeded and retain in collective memory. For example the Navajo word Anazasi means "ancient ones" or "ancient enemy", or even "enemy ancestors"; the word is in some circles rendered: "ancient people who are not us". Curiously the Anazasi people of Chaco Canyon carved their dwellings out of sheer rock face. That seems at least to me to be a pretty desperate thing to do considering the vast expanse of lands at the disposal of an original peoples of North America. Common sense dictates that they were hiding from a hostile element while basic deduction posits that element as the so-called "Mongoloid", "Indian" who in this instance kindly for posterity chose to name the people he supplanted in a telling manner. It gets deeper when you consider the Spanish actually encountered what they called Gente Negra in these and arid inhospitable parts: black NEGROID Indians, and in California, black NEGROID Amazons.
Further investigation throws up some interesting findings in this regard. It is quite possible that the so-called Mongoloid Native Americans are really actually an atypical, distilled strain of Caucasoids, mingled with a trace of the black ancestry they themselves denote as ancient. It is possible that the blacks who made it across the the land bridges of a pre-Pelegian world, were followed by a proto-Caucasian entity which became isolated with them in the Americas when the sea level rose.
Thus when Columbus arrived he found both brown skinned and straight haired, and dark skin, curly haired natives, the latter probably in submission to the former.
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: SNIP
. [/QB]
I see no reason why either of the following should be considered as reasonable:
1) "Africans" settled in the Americas 2) This took place over 6,000-7,000 years ago
...when the word Africa (properly Africus) was merely the name given by the Romans to the direction in which resides the wasteland to which they exiled the natives of the lands they usurped to call home, and when there is no need for extravagant dates.
It doesn't take that long to settle an empty and accessible continent. Look how quickly Australia and the Americas was settled by Caucausians, and they were full of people at the time.
I think it's time that so-called scholars dispensed with the word "African" as a description of black people. It is quite possible that Africa is merely the largest reservation in human history and that to characterize all black peoples with this this Aryan language label is to hide the true history and heritage of the original man who FIRST inhabited all continents at the same time.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Better question, when did Colombus find black-skinned, curly haired, natives speaking languages related to Mandingo??
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:the word Africa (properly Africus) was merely the name given by the Romans to the direction in which resides the wasteland to which they exiled the natives of the lands they usurped to call home, and when there is no need for extravagant dates.
^ Much like Marc Washington's strategy.
We can call anything African if we simply make up a new definition of African.
But why do folks engage in such cheapskate sophistry thinking that they've stumbled on to something really clever?
Don't you know that your method is the same charade used to declare most every civilisation in history 'caucasian'?
Do you even care?
I guess not. Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Djehuti
quote:
Better question, when did Colombus find black-skinned, curly haired, natives speaking languages related to Mandingo??
It is recorded in Raccolta,Parte 1, Volume 1, as quoted in John Boyd Thacher,Christopher Columbus, His Life, His Work, His Remains (1903, 4:2 p.380) Here it is written:
Columbus wanted to find out what the Indians of Espaniola had told him, that there had come from the south and southeast , Negro people, who brought those spear points made of a metal which they call guanin , of which he had sent samples to the king and queen for assay....". The term guanin , corresponds to the Mande word for gold kanine, ghanin .
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Djehuti
quote:
Better question, when did Colombus find black-skinned, curly haired, natives speaking languages related to Mandingo??
It is recorded in Raccolta,Parte 1, Volume 1, as quoted in John Boyd Thacher,Christopher Columbus, His Life, His Work, His Remains (1903, 4:2 p.380) Here it is written:
Columbus wanted to find out what the Indians of Espaniola had told him, that there had come from the south and southeast , Negro people, who brought those spear points made of a metal which they call guanin , of which he had sent samples to the king and queen for assay....". The term guanin , corresponds to the Mande word for gold kanine, ghanin .
.
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
quote:the word Africa (properly Africus) was merely the name given by the Romans to the direction in which resides the wasteland to which they exiled the natives of the lands they usurped to call home, and when there is no need for extravagant dates.
^ Much like Marc Washington's strategy.
We can call anything African if we simply make up a new definition of African.
But why do folks engage in such cheapskate sophistry thinking that they've stumbled on to something really clever?
Don't you know that your method is the same charade used to declare most every civilisation in history 'caucasian'?
Do you even care?
I guess not.
There is nothing clever or sophisticated about what I typed.
In basic language I'm saying that Lyps Africus or the "South Westerly Wind" is NOT the title of original human beings and therefore Africa or African should not be a benchmark for blackness.
The black man inhabited every continent. This is something the black man should be taught.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
This is the standard nonsense response given by so many debunkers, so I'll dismantle it with a standard response.
The word Semite was coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists to describe half (SEMI, the sanskrit word for half) negroid, half Caucasian peoples populating the Fertile Crescent. Ergo there is no such thing as a semitic word for dust.
Africus is actually a Roman deity, cognate of Corus, Vulturnus and many more. All of them are simply names given to directions. Africus indicates a south westerly wind. Africa was named thus because from a Roman POV it (the Carthagian penninsula) resided in a south westerly direction.
In Roman mythology, Africus was the personification of the wind that came from the south-west. The continent of Africa, being to the south of Italy, was named after Africus.
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
This is the standard nonsense response given by so many debunkers, so I'll dismantle it with a standard response.
The word Semite was coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists to describe half (SEMI, the sanskrit word for half) negroid, half Caucasian peoples populating the Fertile Crescent. Ergo there is no such thing as a semitic word for dust.
Africus is actually a Roman deity, cognate of Corus, Vulturnus and many more. All of them are simply names given to directions. Africus indicates a south westerly wind. Africa was named thus because from a Roman POV it (the Carthagian penninsula) resided in a south westerly direction.
In Roman mythology, Africus was the personification of the wind that came from the south-west. The continent of Africa, being to the south of Italy, was named after Africus.
I would have actually taken you seriously had you not said those ridiculous lies about the etymology of Semite (sons of Shem -> Shemite/Semite - Sanskrit has nothing to do with it and isn't even near Semitic languages). 19th century authors did have weird ideas about the Semite people, though (that they were a mixture of East Asians, Blacks and Whites).
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
quote:Originally posted by 707:
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
This is the standard nonsense response given by so many debunkers, so I'll dismantle it with a standard response.
The word Semite was coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists to describe half (SEMI, the sanskrit word for half) negroid, half Caucasian peoples populating the Fertile Crescent. Ergo there is no such thing as a semitic word for dust.
Africus is actually a Roman deity, cognate of Corus, Vulturnus and many more. All of them are simply names given to directions. Africus indicates a south westerly wind. Africa was named thus because from a Roman POV it (the Carthagian penninsula) resided in a south westerly direction.
In Roman mythology, Africus was the personification of the wind that came from the south-west. The continent of Africa, being to the south of Italy, was named after Africus.
I would have actually taken you seriously had you not said those ridiculous lies about the etymology of Semite (sons of Shem -> Shemite/Semite - Sanskrit has nothing to do with it and isn't even near Semitic languages). 19th century authors did have weird ideas about the Semite people, though (that they were a mixture of East Asians, Blacks and Whites).
If your lack of comprehension was down to my lax composition skills then I apologize. The comment I made was that the word Semite is based on the Sanskrit for HALF: SEMI, and it pertains to someone who is half original (negritic) and half other. It was a word coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists.
Let me let you in on a little secret. There will always be two conflicting etymologies for any given contentous word or phrase. One is false the other is true. This is because white people tend to hide the truth.
In any event it isn't that difficult to determine which is which. In the case of Semite it is easy to determine that it has nothing to do with Shem the son of Noah. The word Shemite (meaning sons of Shem) does not exist in scripture. Furthermore the word Semite has no "h".
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
Yom, does the name 'Afer' have any connection to the 'Afar' of Ethiopia??
quote:Originally posted by 707: If your lack of comprehension was down to my lax composition skills then I apologize. The comment I made was that the word Semite is based on the Sanskrit for HALF: SEMI, and it pertains to someone who is half original (negritic) and half other. It was a word coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists.
Let me let you in on a little secret. There will always be two conflicting etymologies for any given contentous word or phrase. One is false the other is true. This is because white people tend to hide the truth.
In any event it isn't that difficult to determine which is which. In the case of Semite it is easy to determine that it has nothing to do with Shem the son of Noah. The word Shemite (meaning sons of Shem) does not exist in scripture. Furthermore the word Semite has no "h".
Okay, but last time I checked the root 'Semi' does not come from Sanskrit but Latin!
The Sanskrit word for half is ardha.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Oh and West Africans have nothing to do with the development of Olmec civilization or Anasazi culture in the US.
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
Yom, does the name 'Afer' have any connection to the 'Afar' of Ethiopia??
quote:Originally posted by 707: If your lack of comprehension was down to my lax composition skills then I apologize. The comment I made was that the word Semite is based on the Sanskrit for HALF: SEMI, and it pertains to someone who is half original (negritic) and half other. It was a word coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists.
Let me let you in on a little secret. There will always be two conflicting etymologies for any given contentous word or phrase. One is false the other is true. This is because white people tend to hide the truth.
In any event it isn't that difficult to determine which is which. In the case of Semite it is easy to determine that it has nothing to do with Shem the son of Noah. The word Shemite (meaning sons of Shem) does not exist in scripture. Furthermore the word Semite has no "h".
Okay, but last time I checked the root 'Semi' does not come from Sanskrit but Latin!
The Sanskrit word for half is ardha.
I wasn't arguing that SEMI is a Sanskrit word, just that it comes from a Sanskrit root.
semi- from L. semi- "half," from PIE *semi- (cf. Sanskrit. sami "half,"
Afer could not be of Roman Origin if the word can be found in the Kemetic language.
Afri+ka- Hot land elevation.
The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea: Travel and Trade in the Indian Ocean by a Merchant of the First Century
quote: 18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyong these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.
Regions to the South of Aethiopia and Libya and AFRICA.
land of the AFER tribe is also quite possible because Libya was actually named after the Lebu Tribe. The name Africa or Afrika is definately of native Afrikan origin.
Hotep
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
E.A Wallis Budge. Volume I page 6
Afer- To burn, to be Hot
Afri- smoke, Hot Vapour.
Afer could not be of Roman Origin if the word can be found in the Kemetic language.
Afri+ka- Hot land elevation.
The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea: Travel and Trade in the Indian Ocean by a Merchant of the First Century
quote: 18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyong these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.
Regions to the South of Aethiopia and Libya and AFRICA.
land of the AFER tribe is also quite possible because Libya was actually named after the Lebu Tribe. The name Africa or Afrika is definately of native Afrikan origin.
Hotep
While you deal with possibilities I offer certainties. Africus is the Roman Deity representing the South Westerly Wind. This is not some conflation of possible prefixes. This is a fact.
Now let's join you in your desire to speculate.
Do you really believe that the Romans named their wind deity after a piece of dry land, after some ousted black tribe, the descendants of the people whose land (Italy) they conquered? Or do you believe they named that dry land after the wind deity representing the direction in which it lay?
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB]Yom, does the name 'Afer' have any connection to the 'Afar' of Ethiopia??
Maybe. "Afer" is spelled with an "ayin" (link from same etymology site), as was the land "Ophir" in the bible, which could be connected with the Afar in Ethiopia. Afar in Amharic is spelled with an "alif," but in Tigrinya and the Afar language, it too is spelled with an ayin, so the root for all the words is the same, if related.
The name is a self-designation, but it doesn't appear in ancient or medieval sources, unless a 1522 mention of "Afara" on a Spanish map of Ethiopia refers to them. Either way, northern Afars were designated to be "Danakil" in the north and "Adel" (like the kingdom/province ruled by Ahmed Gragn) by Semitic speakers (Also T.int.al or T.ilt.al for Danakil in Tigrinya). The Afar language is Afrasan, though, so it may be from the same root. The site I linked above doesn't give other branches other than Semitic the `apar root, though it is not a complete database.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
707, Shem and Sem are the same thing. In hebrew it's a "sh" sound, but in most other semitic languages it's an "s".
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Still it doesn't seem to touch upon the existence of a Roman deity (of the di indigetes -- gods, goddesses and spirits not adopted from other mythologies) called Africus, one of the Cardinal deities representing wind direction.
See, konwing the Roman attitude towards blacks, I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of this "Roman God" with anything resemembling a negritic phenomenon, ergo my tendency to dismiss any claim that the deity Africus was named after a black tribe.
Had Africus been a member of the di novensides (or newcommer gods) then perhaps I might have been inclined to accept it was named after some defeated tribe.
Unfortunately prudence dictates that a conquering Imperium would name its conquests after its own. Ergo Africa is a corruption of Africus, the name of an Aryan language speaking peoples' god. It is therfore an inappropriate label for original men.
Posted by zulu (Member # 7122) on :
Here's information on Abubakari II trip across the Atlantic that was featured in the BBC in December of 2000.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's information on Abubakari II trip across the Atlantic that was featured in the BBC in December of 2000.
Still it doesn't seem to touch upon the existence of a Roman deity (of the di indigetes -- gods, goddesses and spirits not adopted from other mythologies) called Africus, one of the Cardinal deities representing wind direction.
See, konwing the Roman attitude towards blacks, I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of this "Roman God" with anything resemembling a negritic phenomenon, ergo my tendency to dismiss any claim that the deity Africus was named after a black tribe.
Had Africus been a member of the di novensides (or newcommer gods) then perhaps I might have been inclined to accept it was named after some defeated tribe.
Unfortunately prudence dictates that a conquering Imperium would name its conquests after its own. Ergo Africa is a corruption of Africus, the name of an Aryan language speaking peoples' god. It is therfore an inappropriate label for original men.
Trying to claim Africus is the origin of Africa is just incorrect, you cannot PROVE this by any stretch of the imagination because I have evidence to refute your claim, lets take a look.
quote: Lips, or Livos, was the Greek deity of the southwest wind, often depicted holding the stern of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), or Africus, due to Africa being to the south of Italy. This name is derived from the name of a North African tribe, the Afri, who are also the likely origin of the name of the continent Africa, via the Romans. Africus was also, like Corus, one of the few native Roman deities, or di indigetes, to endure in later Roman mythology
Africus was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Livos both were deities of the South West Wind, Greeks influenced the Romans don't forget that now look at the concept of Wind divinities.
Gods of the Winds by Dr Alena Trckova-Flamee, Ph.D
quote: The Gods of the Winds appeared between the natural deities already in the Mycenaean Greece. A Priestess of the Winds was named on the Tablet from Mycenaean Knossos written in Linear Script B. Such function in the Knossos palace is giving us proof that the cult of the winds was an important one and that its deities existed there. Hesiod mentioned only three of the Wind-gods by their names: Boreas - the north wind, Zephyrus - the west wind, while for Eurus - the east (or southeast) wind, he used the surname Argestus, the bearer of brightness. But also the south wind called by the Greeks Notus was worshipped. During the ancient time a divine family of the winds was growing until eight members. Besides Boreas, Zephyrus, Eurus and Notus another four members were venerated, but they never became well known. Apeliotus - was the southeast wind, Lips or Livos - the southwest wind, Skeiron, the northeast wind (connected with the Attic month June and July - skiroforion) and finally Kaikias, the northwest wind (from the Greek word kakía - "badness"). The myth is saying that the Gods of the Winds were the children of Astraeus, the God of the Night-sky and father of the stars and the Goddess of Morning Eos. According to Homer a ruler over the winds was the king Aeolus. The winds were completely subdued as his instruments, he kept them locked and he let them to go out, when he or the gods wanted.
The cult of the winds was confirmed by the ancient authors on many places of Greece. Always a special, individually named wind was worshipped, which determined the weather at a certain period of the year or at a certain place. The Athenians adored Boreas, who according to the myth abducted Oreithyia, the daughter of the Athenian king Erechtheus. They built a temple to Boreas near the river Ilyssos, because they believed that it was the North Wind who helped them to destroy the Persian fleet. On the other side the Spartans were waiting for the east wind Eurus and its refreshing rain and they called him the Savior of Sparta. In Methana a ritual existed, in which a cock was sacrificed and where they were walking with this animal in procession around the vineyards. This special act had to banish Livos, the southwest wind, which was bringing rain. The inhabitants of the island Keos pursued the sacrifices for the cooling Etesian winds (etisios means "coming back every year"). Also the people of the Greek cities in the southern part of Italy used the sacrifice - of an ass - this time against the evil of the north wind.
The Gods of the Winds are depicted always as the personifications of men with their wings, but usually with different expressions and attributes. This type, a man with wings, was influenced by the Near-Eastern iconography and their belief in Ramman, the god of the wind, thunder and storms, who came to the Syrian mythology as Adad-Ramman. This winged Nature-god was represented on the Near-Eastern cylindrical seals from 15th century BCE, discovered in the Mycenaean necropolis of Perati. Also pictures of the Wind-god were found on some Greek Black-figured vases from 6th century BCE and we noticed that between some miniature ivory figures, depicting some mythological events, this image can be recognized, but such representations were very sporadic. After the Greek-Persian Wars the scenes showing the God of the Wind (and specially Boreas) became more popular. Due to a new interest of the Athenians in Boreas, the myth about North Wind and Oreithyia was in fashion on the Greek Red-figure vases until the Late Classical period.
Boreas - the most coldest and powerful wind - was depicted in the dramatic poses, dressed in a short cloth, which was moving round his body, the same as his curling hair and beard which were like flying. But later on this curly hair and beard were depicted more and more spiky. The vase-painters pictured small wings around his legs, but Pausanias was saying that the god had snake-tails and not normal feet. Also his sons - Zetes and Kalais (the comrades of Jason in the Argo) became winged as they became adults and they were presented again with these small wings around their legs.
Zephyrus, the west wind, was a very fine and a pleasant one. People called him the protector of the plants, because he brought humidity for them. He was represented as a young man with a lovely face and long grooved hair while keeping flowers and fruit in his light wrapper, which was encircling his body. Later on he was named Favonius by the Romans.
The south wind Notus was known as a very dynamic, stormy and dangerous wind especially when seamen were sailing. The Greeks were afraid of him, mainly when he blew together with the north wind. Notus was represented as a young, beardless man with long hair, covered by a short mantle with one open arm. He kept in his hands a vessel for water - hydria - from which all the rain was gushing out.
Eurus, the east wind, was bringing the bad storms, but he was more kind to the people, than his brothers Boreas and Notus. He also was wearing a short mantle encircling his body. He was depicted as a curly-headed man with an unkempt beard and with some sadness in his face. Sometimes he was called Apeliotus and the Romans called him Vulturnus.
But Apeliotus was in reality the name for the southeast wind, which was giving to people a refreshing rain. Therefore they pictured him as a curly-hair man with a friendly expression, dressed in a light cloth and keeping inside his draping cloths some flowers. And his brother Lips (Livos), who was a lukewarm southwest wind, was also bringing rain.
The northwest wind was called by the Athenians Skeiron. According to Pausanias it was a smart wind, which was blowing over the Skeirons' cliffs and Molourian rocks to the sea. The name Skeiron was taken from the mythological events, connected with the king's son of Megara, who was described as an honest man, but according to the other myths Skeiron was a robber. Theseus, when he seized Eleusis, killed him and after established in his honor the Isthmian Games under the protection of Poseidon.
Kaikias, the northeast wind, had a bad name in Greece as the bearer of snow, coldness and blizzards. This was the reason, why he took this name and why he had this image. He was represented as a man with serious features in his face, with a long hair and a beard. Hail is dropping out from his round vessel, which he is always carrying.
To see all the images of the Wind-Gods together, we have to turn our attention to the so called Tower of the Winds in Athens, near of the Roman Agora. The tower, which was built as a horologion (time-clock) in the half part of the first century BCE by the Syrian architect Andronicus Cyrrhestes, was made on the ground-plan of the eight angles. The reliefs of the eight personifications of the winds are decorating the fries, in which from every pertinent side a specific god-wind with his name is represented.
Now to ignore the Afar people in Afrika, would be totally negligent on your part 707 because the Afar people are linked with the Somalis and Oromo which proves they are a ANCIENT people in Afrika. Some sources state that Africa was located West of Kemet/Egypt while I have shown you one ANCIENT Geographer who place Africa below Ethiopia and Libya.
Here is some information on the Afar Tribe.
quote: Location: There are about 1.4 million Afar in the three countries: Ethiopia, Djibouti and Eritrea. The 1998 Ethiopia census reports about 980,000 Afar. Population estimates for Djibouti range from 130,000 to 170,000. Eritrea figures are generally reported as 300,000.
One source I know also reports almost 500,000 of these in Somali, but most sources have indicated they are not actually that far south. This was my conclusion when I investigated that question a few years ago.
In Djibouti the Afars make up about 40% of the population. The previous name of the territory was the French Territory of Afars and Issas, the latter being the tribe of Somalis who are dominant there.
Much of their territory is desert and salt flats, cut by great cracks from the sun's heat. Temperatures are reported to be the hottest on earth.
History: Little is known of the actual specific history of the Afar people. The Afar claim a descent from Arabs, through a mythic Yemeni ancestor, though they differ racially, linguistically and culturally.
This kind of cultural geneological adoption is common among Semitic and Cushitic peoples, such as some Somali clans, who also claim Yemeni Arab descent. Sometimes this reflects cultural ties from an earlier historical period or actual instances of intermarriage, perhaps for a defense alliance.
Popular history gives some insight into the history in the two traditional divisions of the Afar. Tradition indicates that the Asayahamara (The Red Ones) are descended from a group originally invading from the Ethiopian Highlands at one time, who imposed their rule on the Adoyahmara (The White Ones).
It is thought the color designations came from the reddish soil deserts inland, toward the direction the newcomers came from, and the white saline coastal areas, where the Adoyahamara are still more numerous. The Reds remain socially dominant, and claim ownership of the lands, while the Whites tend to be the herders. Both classes are, however, distributed among all the clans of the tribe.
Identity: The Afar are one of the people about whom little is available. Their inaccecssibility makes it difficulat to obtain reliable objective information
Through their myths of origin, the Afar claim Arab descent. Their language, however, and the traditional animistic practices underlying their more recent adherence to Islam, indicate the Afar share a history with neighbouring Cushite peoples. No written Afar records exist from previous eras, and the Afar remain as oral people.
The Afar are a distinct ethnic group, referenced as a separate ethnicity as far back as we have information about peoples of the Horn, though details are few. Every people, though, is related to other peoples, of course. The Afar are a distinct Eastern Cushite people, whose language and culture are related to the Somali and Oromo. They are very traditional in culture and belief, retaining many ancient Cushite animistic practices.
They are a dark brown or black people with Caucasian features, similar to the darker Somali and Oromo. They are likewise distantly related to the ancient Beja group of peoples, who are Southern Cushites, and related in turn to the ancient Egyptian race.
They are referred to by some sources as the Danakil, from the Arabic name of the Danakil Depression, or Desert, near the Red Sea in Ethiopia and Eritrea. The Amharic name for them is Adal. Adal was the name of an ancient Muslim empire that almost defeated the old Abyssinian Empire at one time. They call themselves Afar, which means in their language "The Best" or "First."
The Afar were active in the Arab slave trade, serving as guides to Arab slave traders. A major slave route to Arabia crossed Afar country, with Afar reportedly still actively trading in slaves as recently as 1928.
Language: The Afar speech is classified as a separate language in the Eastern Cushite group. It is most closely related to Saho (Ethiopia and Eritrea), and more distantly related to the Somali and Oromo groups of languages. Linguists generally identify four distinct dialects of Afar, Northern Central, Aussa and Baadu.
Literacy rate in Afar is only about 1%; in Amharic (in Ethiopia) perhaps 3%. In Sudan and Eritrea, Sudanese Arabic is used with neighbours and trading partners
Thank the Arabs for the brainwashing for some of these people with the descent from Yemen etc. though the facts say otherwise, though it is quite possible that the Afar people are the ones who gave AFARIKA-AFRICA= LAND OF AFAR, its name to the Romans, claiming the south west wind is just IGNORANT of the facts that the Afar people are more likely to be the reason for the name AFRICA.
Hotep
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hotep2u: Greetings:
707 wrote:
quote: That's quite extensive and familiar.
Still it doesn't seem to touch upon the existence of a Roman deity (of the di indigetes -- gods, goddesses and spirits not adopted from other mythologies) called Africus, one of the Cardinal deities representing wind direction.
See, konwing the Roman attitude towards blacks, I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of this "Roman God" with anything resemembling a negritic phenomenon, ergo my tendency to dismiss any claim that the deity Africus was named after a black tribe.
Had Africus been a member of the di novensides (or newcommer gods) then perhaps I might have been inclined to accept it was named after some defeated tribe.
Unfortunately prudence dictates that a conquering Imperium would name its conquests after its own. Ergo Africa is a corruption of Africus, the name of an Aryan language speaking peoples' god. It is therfore an inappropriate label for original men.
Trying to claim Africus is the origin of Africa is just incorrect, you cannot PROVE this by any stretch of the imagination because I have evidence to refute your claim, lets take a look.
quote: Lips, or Livos, was the Greek deity of the southwest wind, often depicted holding the stern of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), or Africus, due to Africa being to the south of Italy. This name is derived from the name of a North African tribe, the Afri, who are also the likely origin of the name of the continent Africa, via the Romans. Africus was also, like Corus, one of the few native Roman deities, or di indigetes, to endure in later Roman mythology
Africus was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Livos both were deities of the South West Wind, Greeks influenced the Romans don't forget that now look at the concept of Wind divinities.
Gods of the Winds by Dr Alena Trckova-Flamee, Ph.D
quote: The Gods of the Winds appeared between the natural deities already in the Mycenaean Greece. A Priestess of the Winds was named on the Tablet from Mycenaean Knossos written in Linear Script B. Such function in the Knossos palace is giving us proof that the cult of the winds was an important one and that its deities existed there. Hesiod mentioned only three of the Wind-gods by their names: Boreas - the north wind, Zephyrus - the west wind, while for Eurus - the east (or southeast) wind, he used the surname Argestus, the bearer of brightness. But also the south wind called by the Greeks Notus was worshipped. During the ancient time a divine family of the winds was growing until eight members. Besides Boreas, Zephyrus, Eurus and Notus another four members were venerated, but they never became well known. Apeliotus - was the southeast wind, Lips or Livos - the southwest wind, Skeiron, the northeast wind (connected with the Attic month June and July - skiroforion) and finally Kaikias, the northwest wind (from the Greek word kakía - "badness"). The myth is saying that the Gods of the Winds were the children of Astraeus, the God of the Night-sky and father of the stars and the Goddess of Morning Eos. According to Homer a ruler over the winds was the king Aeolus. The winds were completely subdued as his instruments, he kept them locked and he let them to go out, when he or the gods wanted.
The cult of the winds was confirmed by the ancient authors on many places of Greece. Always a special, individually named wind was worshipped, which determined the weather at a certain period of the year or at a certain place. The Athenians adored Boreas, who according to the myth abducted Oreithyia, the daughter of the Athenian king Erechtheus. They built a temple to Boreas near the river Ilyssos, because they believed that it was the North Wind who helped them to destroy the Persian fleet. On the other side the Spartans were waiting for the east wind Eurus and its refreshing rain and they called him the Savior of Sparta. In Methana a ritual existed, in which a cock was sacrificed and where they were walking with this animal in procession around the vineyards. This special act had to banish Livos, the southwest wind, which was bringing rain. The inhabitants of the island Keos pursued the sacrifices for the cooling Etesian winds (etisios means "coming back every year"). Also the people of the Greek cities in the southern part of Italy used the sacrifice - of an ass - this time against the evil of the north wind.
The Gods of the Winds are depicted always as the personifications of men with their wings, but usually with different expressions and attributes. This type, a man with wings, was influenced by the Near-Eastern iconography and their belief in Ramman, the god of the wind, thunder and storms, who came to the Syrian mythology as Adad-Ramman. This winged Nature-god was represented on the Near-Eastern cylindrical seals from 15th century BCE, discovered in the Mycenaean necropolis of Perati. Also pictures of the Wind-god were found on some Greek Black-figured vases from 6th century BCE and we noticed that between some miniature ivory figures, depicting some mythological events, this image can be recognized, but such representations were very sporadic. After the Greek-Persian Wars the scenes showing the God of the Wind (and specially Boreas) became more popular. Due to a new interest of the Athenians in Boreas, the myth about North Wind and Oreithyia was in fashion on the Greek Red-figure vases until the Late Classical period.
Boreas - the most coldest and powerful wind - was depicted in the dramatic poses, dressed in a short cloth, which was moving round his body, the same as his curling hair and beard which were like flying. But later on this curly hair and beard were depicted more and more spiky. The vase-painters pictured small wings around his legs, but Pausanias was saying that the god had snake-tails and not normal feet. Also his sons - Zetes and Kalais (the comrades of Jason in the Argo) became winged as they became adults and they were presented again with these small wings around their legs.
Zephyrus, the west wind, was a very fine and a pleasant one. People called him the protector of the plants, because he brought humidity for them. He was represented as a young man with a lovely face and long grooved hair while keeping flowers and fruit in his light wrapper, which was encircling his body. Later on he was named Favonius by the Romans.
The south wind Notus was known as a very dynamic, stormy and dangerous wind especially when seamen were sailing. The Greeks were afraid of him, mainly when he blew together with the north wind. Notus was represented as a young, beardless man with long hair, covered by a short mantle with one open arm. He kept in his hands a vessel for water - hydria - from which all the rain was gushing out.
Eurus, the east wind, was bringing the bad storms, but he was more kind to the people, than his brothers Boreas and Notus. He also was wearing a short mantle encircling his body. He was depicted as a curly-headed man with an unkempt beard and with some sadness in his face. Sometimes he was called Apeliotus and the Romans called him Vulturnus.
But Apeliotus was in reality the name for the southeast wind, which was giving to people a refreshing rain. Therefore they pictured him as a curly-hair man with a friendly expression, dressed in a light cloth and keeping inside his draping cloths some flowers. And his brother Lips (Livos), who was a lukewarm southwest wind, was also bringing rain.
The northwest wind was called by the Athenians Skeiron. According to Pausanias it was a smart wind, which was blowing over the Skeirons' cliffs and Molourian rocks to the sea. The name Skeiron was taken from the mythological events, connected with the king's son of Megara, who was described as an honest man, but according to the other myths Skeiron was a robber. Theseus, when he seized Eleusis, killed him and after established in his honor the Isthmian Games under the protection of Poseidon.
Kaikias, the northeast wind, had a bad name in Greece as the bearer of snow, coldness and blizzards. This was the reason, why he took this name and why he had this image. He was represented as a man with serious features in his face, with a long hair and a beard. Hail is dropping out from his round vessel, which he is always carrying.
To see all the images of the Wind-Gods together, we have to turn our attention to the so called Tower of the Winds in Athens, near of the Roman Agora. The tower, which was built as a horologion (time-clock) in the half part of the first century BCE by the Syrian architect Andronicus Cyrrhestes, was made on the ground-plan of the eight angles. The reliefs of the eight personifications of the winds are decorating the fries, in which from every pertinent side a specific god-wind with his name is represented.
Now to ignore the Afar people in Afrika, would be totally negligent on your part 707 because the Afar people are linked with the Somalis and Oromo which proves they are a ANCIENT people in Afrika. Some sources state that Africa was located West of Kemet/Egypt while I have shown you one ANCIENT Geographer who place Africa below Ethiopia and Libya.
Here is some information on the Afar Tribe.
quote: Location: There are about 1.4 million Afar in the three countries: Ethiopia, Djibouti and Eritrea. The 1998 Ethiopia census reports about 980,000 Afar. Population estimates for Djibouti range from 130,000 to 170,000. Eritrea figures are generally reported as 300,000.
One source I know also reports almost 500,000 of these in Somali, but most sources have indicated they are not actually that far south. This was my conclusion when I investigated that question a few years ago.
In Djibouti the Afars make up about 40% of the population. The previous name of the territory was the French Territory of Afars and Issas, the latter being the tribe of Somalis who are dominant there.
Much of their territory is desert and salt flats, cut by great cracks from the sun's heat. Temperatures are reported to be the hottest on earth.
History: Little is known of the actual specific history of the Afar people. The Afar claim a descent from Arabs, through a mythic Yemeni ancestor, though they differ racially, linguistically and culturally.
This kind of cultural geneological adoption is common among Semitic and Cushitic peoples, such as some Somali clans, who also claim Yemeni Arab descent. Sometimes this reflects cultural ties from an earlier historical period or actual instances of intermarriage, perhaps for a defense alliance.
Popular history gives some insight into the history in the two traditional divisions of the Afar. Tradition indicates that the Asayahamara (The Red Ones) are descended from a group originally invading from the Ethiopian Highlands at one time, who imposed their rule on the Adoyahmara (The White Ones).
It is thought the color designations came from the reddish soil deserts inland, toward the direction the newcomers came from, and the white saline coastal areas, where the Adoyahamara are still more numerous. The Reds remain socially dominant, and claim ownership of the lands, while the Whites tend to be the herders. Both classes are, however, distributed among all the clans of the tribe.
Identity: The Afar are one of the people about whom little is available. Their inaccecssibility makes it difficulat to obtain reliable objective information
Through their myths of origin, the Afar claim Arab descent. Their language, however, and the traditional animistic practices underlying their more recent adherence to Islam, indicate the Afar share a history with neighbouring Cushite peoples. No written Afar records exist from previous eras, and the Afar remain as oral people.
The Afar are a distinct ethnic group, referenced as a separate ethnicity as far back as we have information about peoples of the Horn, though details are few. Every people, though, is related to other peoples, of course. The Afar are a distinct Eastern Cushite people, whose language and culture are related to the Somali and Oromo. They are very traditional in culture and belief, retaining many ancient Cushite animistic practices.
They are a dark brown or black people with Caucasian features, similar to the darker Somali and Oromo. They are likewise distantly related to the ancient Beja group of peoples, who are Southern Cushites, and related in turn to the ancient Egyptian race.
They are referred to by some sources as the Danakil, from the Arabic name of the Danakil Depression, or Desert, near the Red Sea in Ethiopia and Eritrea. The Amharic name for them is Adal. Adal was the name of an ancient Muslim empire that almost defeated the old Abyssinian Empire at one time. They call themselves Afar, which means in their language "The Best" or "First."
The Afar were active in the Arab slave trade, serving as guides to Arab slave traders. A major slave route to Arabia crossed Afar country, with Afar reportedly still actively trading in slaves as recently as 1928.
Language: The Afar speech is classified as a separate language in the Eastern Cushite group. It is most closely related to Saho (Ethiopia and Eritrea), and more distantly related to the Somali and Oromo groups of languages. Linguists generally identify four distinct dialects of Afar, Northern Central, Aussa and Baadu.
Literacy rate in Afar is only about 1%; in Amharic (in Ethiopia) perhaps 3%. In Sudan and Eritrea, Sudanese Arabic is used with neighbours and trading partners
Thank the Arabs for the brainwashing for some of these people with the descent from Yemen etc. though the facts say otherwise, though it is quite possible that the Afar people are the ones who gave AFARIKA-AFRICA= LAND OF AFAR, its name to the Romans, claiming the south west wind is just IGNORANT of the facts that the Afar people are more likely to be the reason for the name AFRICA.
Hotep
There is one glaring problem with all of this. You neglect to accept that the Roman pantheon, at least the di indigetes (from which Africus is derives) are a group of deities NOT based on any other mythology. This is what "di indigetes" means: indigenous gods.
Please don't tell me that you missed this.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
He's actually missed alot of things.
Like the fact that there ARE many people in Ethiopia and Eritrea that DO have Yemeni ancestry, whether they claim so or not and are NOT brainwashed by Arabs (even though many are not even Muslim!).
While most (all) Somalis who ARE Muslim never claimed to be Arabs or "brainwashed" by Arabs.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: He's actually missed alot of things.
Like the fact that there ARE many people in Ethiopia and Eritrea that DO have Yemeni ancestry, whether they claim so or not and are NOT brainwashed by Arabs (even though many are not even Muslim!).
While most (all) Somalis who ARE Muslim never claimed to be Arabs or "brainwashed" by Arabs.
Recent ancestry from Yemen is low, though. Paternal Haplotype J is found at 35% among Semitic-speakers, but only ~2% is J-M172 (recent migrations), and a very small percentage of J-M267 lineages carry the motif associated with expansion from Arabia in the 7th century. Note that Ethiopians claim to be the descendents of Queen Makeda (of Sheba) and Solomon, where Queen Makeda is a Queen of Aksum, not of Yemen. That Ethiopians are descended from Yemenis is not traditional, but rather the adaption of recent archaeological evidence to fit past myths.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Do Ethiopians make this claim or only those of the royal families? It seems more than obvious that the whole population doesn't claim royal descent and that there was already a numerous population of Ethiopians that Makeda ruled and was herself a member.
The Kebra Negast national epic has it that there were many more Ethiopians descended from Israelite immigrants sent by Solomon to accompany the Ark than Ethiopians descended from the one and only child of Makeda and Solomon. (Not to forget the boy that Makeda's handmaid had by Solomon.)
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Note that Ethiopians claim to be the descendents of Queen Makeda (of Sheba) and Solomon,
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Do Ethiopians make this claim or only those of the royal families? It seems more than obvious that the whole population doesn't claim royal descent and that there was already a numerous population of Ethiopians that Makeda ruled and was herself a member.
The Kebra Negast national epic has it that there were many more Ethiopians descended from Israelite immigrants sent by Solomon to accompany the Ark than Ethiopians descended from the one and only child of Makeda and Solomon. (Not to forget the boy that Makeda's handmaid had by Solomon.)
You got it right. Anyone with royal blood can claim to be descended from Solomon (I guess it's more complicated, because you can be related by marriage), but those who do not have any still believe that they are descendents of the Israelites accompanying the Ark of the Covenant.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Unfortunately because Southwest Asia is home of most of the great spiritual beliefs of the world, especially those in Africa, it is not surprising that many Africans (especially those in East Africa right next to Southwest Asia), would claim descent or lineages from these areas. Whether Muhammad's relatives or Solomon's!
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
People you fail to grasp the argument at hand here.
The word Africa is based upon the name of a NATIVE ROMAN god.
This precludes any other consideration you may raise.
The name Africus is not based on any external mythology or source. This is confirmed by the simple fact that it is part of the "di indigetes" pantheon.
Do you understand what this phrase means?
It means NATIVE or indigenous gods: native to the Latins.
If you can overcome this observation by all means let us have your argument. If not, please publicly concede that the word African is an inappropriate appellation for original human beings.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I also heard that the name 'Africa' is also derived from an indigenous North African people called the Afer who were described as "Aethiopian" or "black-skinned" by the Romans.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
^^That's the most likely possibility. Singular "Afer," possibly from Phoenician "`Afar," "earth." (cp. Amharic "Afer," "dust/earth") or another Semitic language, plural "Afri." Afrika = "place of the Afri."
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by zulu: Here's information on Abubakari II trip across the Atlantic that was featured in the BBC in December of 2000.
Thanks for the link. I don't think there's any argument Abubakari II set sail. The debate comes when the word 'Brazil' pops up.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
707 please look at the post named "Writing the facts about Libya".
Hotep
Posted by 707 (Member # 11420) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I also heard that the name 'Africa' is also derived from an indigenous North African people called the Afer who were described as "Aethiopian" or "black-skinned" by the Romans.
There is no also.
Try to grasp what is being said to you.
Africus is INDIGENOUS to the Latin tribe.
It's a LATIN name.
It is not based on any black tribe. It's not based on external mythology. It is wholly LATIN.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Interesting. What Latin tribe would that be?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^...
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
707's stance is wholly untenable and (s)he knows it. Quite simply, Latin dictionaries or lexicons don't list any Latin root for Africa/Africus/Africanus/etc. TKO; End-of-Discussion; No-Debate; but just to recap:
The Latin word is borrowed from Greek (Aphrikê) where, once again, no root exists.
The root is F-R-GH and its from an African language family, Tamazight, spoken by the indigenees the Phoenicians met in Tunis, the Aourigha/Avrigha/Afrigha. The name is still in use.
There's a Kel Tamasheq/Tagelmust (Tuareg) clan, Aourighen. It's well known some Kel Tagelmoust elements moved south under Arab pressure and that Afer covered all of "Roman" North Africans. I have it that the Kabyle also apply the term to the darker (than them) populations south of the Atlas chain, including all so-called "Black Africans."
So why even give a passing nod to 707's fanciful linguistically unsupported etymology? Ignore the enthusiasts' ignorance and keep posting accurate info on Egyptology and other Africana and the disciplines used to support and authenticate the valid knowledge and falsify the bullshit.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Latin word is borrowed from Greek (Aphrikê) where, once again, no root exists.
The root is F-R-GH and its from an African language family, Tamazight, spoken by the indigenees the Phoenicians met in Tunis, the Aourigha/Avrigha/Afrigha. The name is still in use.
There's a Kel Tamasheq/Tagelmust (Tuareg) clan, Aourighen. It's well known some Kel Tagelmoust elements moved south under Arab pressure and that Afer covered all of "Roman" North Africans. I have it that the Kabyle also apply the term to the darker (than them) populations south of the Atlas chain, including all so-called "Black Africans."
Thanks for the info, Takruri.
Good to know. Posted by Hotep2u (Member # 9820) on :
Greetings:
707 here is Afrika the deity of Imazaghen\Berber peoples.
Notice the snake, scorpion etc. these are all associated with normal Libyan or Afrikan symbolism.
quote: Berber pantheon From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The traditional Berber pantheon contains a variety of gods. Although most Berbers are now Muslim (and none profess paganism), vestiges of their previous religion remain, including traditions such as "the bride of Anzar" (literally "rainbow", originally believed to have been a Berber god) among the Kabyles.
Afrika: a Berber goddess. Afrika: a Berber goddess. Amun: An oracle god, introduced by the Libyans into Egypt Antaeus : A giant from Libya, also found in Greek Mythology Anzar: god of the rain among the Kabyles. Berber: The first god Guraya: Name of a saint in Kabylie; sponsor of Bgayet and is also found in Tipasa. Idir: Name of a divinity. From Edder, to live, which is also found in Baliddir:"the alive God".(Ball or Baal:suffix from Phoenician meaning: god or lord) Iguc: or Iyuc (as is frequent in Berber, G, becomes Y, etc), god of the rain at Berghwata of Morocco. Lilu: a Berber god, synonymous with rainwater. Probably alternative of Illu, a god among the Tuaregs. Makurgun: Berber god, of Punico-Berber origin. Ifru: the ethymology of this name is probably related to the verb Fru: to regulate, solve, sort. Maqurtum: an Amazigh God of Punico-Berber origin. Nabel: name of a divinity, Sinifer: God of war among the Luwata. Suggen: or Seggen, name of a Berber divinity, name which is nowadays found in Aïn Me Lila - Algeria. Tililwa: name of a Berber divinity. Warsisima: an Amazigh Berber God, this name is a composed name: name + prefix: wer+isem (without name) Warsutima: name of a Berber divinity, made up of wer + utim. Wihinam: name of a Berber divinity. Yam: name of a Berber divinity. Yukus: Berber god, alternative: Yakuc, Yunan: Berber god. Yur: the moon, but also a Berber god.
Hotep
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^ Interesting!..
I've always wondered about the pre-Islamic beliefs of the Berber peoples. Do you know any other sources bearing such info??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK, once again here's the translation of the source of all we definitely know about Mali officially seeking to find what lay beyond the empire's sunset into the Atlantic, probably from Senegal doubtfully from Nigeria.
quote: Says ibn Amir Hajib “I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years. He told those who commanded them: return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their adventure. Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, gradually each entered this place, they disappeared and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where I was and did not enter that current.
But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped 2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master of the empire”.
Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans Masilik el Absar Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927 74-5
The text precedes any "pre-Columbian" scholar or scholarship by a good 400 years. Any such "scholars" would be fools to suggest no such text exists or is relevent to African presence in the Americas under their own power not as objects of or participants in other people's ventures across the Atlantic.
The above is quoted in Introduction to African Civilizations John G. Jackson - and is related by Basil Davidson in a 1969 article
However I see a similar yet different translation by the same author which also has am additional statement preceeding the above and yet the reference is cited as the same:
[5] Al-Umari, 1927, Masalik al Absar fi Mamalik el-Amsar, French translation by Gaudefroy-Demombynes, Paris, Paul Geuthner, 1927, pp. 59, 74-75. See also Qalqashandi, Subh al-A'sha, V, 294.
"In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ... I asked their ruler Sultan Musa Ibn Amir Hajib (who was in Egypt returning from the pilgrimage): "How had you become ruler?" He replied: "We belong to a family where the son succeeds the father in power. The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning Atlantic), and wanted to reach to that (end) and obstinately persisted in the design. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, as many others full of gold, water and victuals sufficient enough for several years. He ordered the chief (admiral) not to return until they had reached the extremity of the ocean, or if they had exhausted the provisions and the water. They set out. Their absence extended over a long period, and, at last, only one boat returned. On our questioning, the captain said: 'Prince, we have navigated for a long time, until we saw in the midst of the ocean as if a big river was flowing violently. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me. As soon as any of them reached this place, it drowned in the whirlpool and never came out. I sailed backwards to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and for his men, and one thousand more for water and victuals. Then he conferred on me the regency during his absence, and departed with his men on the ocean trip, never to return nor to give a sign of life .[5]"
This is notable in that it says " "In the North of Mali there live white Berbers" (possibly mulatto in this context) I don't have information as to whether or not the other version had a similar statement preceeding what is quoted above at top.
It is also notable that in both versions Akubakari is not mentioned!
And importantly, if the account is true, there is no indication in the account that they reached land successfully, merely that they were not heard from again
lioness productions
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:This is notable in that it says " "In the North of Mali there live white Berbers" (possibly mulatto in this context)
By white is not meant white as Europeans, but light skin by complexion. Tribal members like Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna, in Europe or America these people would be considered black.
Dana posted on this many times. Including the texted you've cited.
Think of it like this:
Stated by Tariq Berry -
quote: "White أبيض
One of these misunderstood terms is the term “white” ابيض . Most people think that when the Arabs of the past described a person’s complexion as “white”, they meant the same light complexion that is meant today. This isn’t true at all. When the Arabs described a person as “white”, they actually meant a dark complexion. Ibn Mandour, the well-known Arab linguist who was born in the 13th century AD and the author of the famous book on the Arabic language Lisan Al Arab, quotes from another famous book on the Arabic language called Al Tahdheeb the following:
“When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he has a pure, clean, faultless integrity…They don’t mean that he has white skin, but they mean to speak well of his honor and the purity of his integrity. When they say that a person has a white face, they mean that his complexion is free from blotches and a blackness that is unattractive”.
The author of Al Tahdheeb is Mas’ud ibn Umar Sa’ad Al Deen Al Taftaazaani, the well-known Arab linguist who lived during the same time as Ibn Mandour.
Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”. The Arabic definition of a white complexion is “al lown al hinti bi hilya sawdaa” اللون الحنطي بحلية سوداء . “Al lown” means complexion, “al hinti” means light brown, and “bi hilya sawdaa” means with a black appearance. It’s a black complexion with a light-brownish undertone. The “hilya” of a person is what’s apparent in his/her color or appearance. So a person with a “hilya” (appearance) “sawdaa” (black) has a black appearance. So a person called “white” ابيض by the Arabs of the past had a blackish complexion with a light-brown undertone.
So anyone who reads someone being described as “white” in an Arabic book of the past should understand that “white” means a dark complexion. It’s very important that people bear this in mind....
Green أخضر
Most people are unaware of the fact that the Arabs of the past used the term “green” for black. Black and green were used interchangeably. This is why black-skinned Al Fadl Ibn Al Abbas Ibn ‘Utba Ibn Abi Lahab said:
'I am the green (black) one. I am well-known. My skin is green (black). I am from the noble house of the Arabs. Whoever crosses swords with me, will cross swords with one who is noble and strong.'"
"Red أحمر
Since in the past the term “white” was used for a person whose complexion was like a “black” person today, one must wonder what it is that the Arabs of the past called people who were “white” in the sense that the word is used today. In the past, those who had complexions like those who are considered “white” today were called red. Tha’alab, the Arabic language scholar of the 9th century AD says, “The Arabs don’t say that a man is white because of a white complexion. ‘White’ to the Arabs means that a person is pure, without any faults. If they meant that his complexion was ‘white’, they said ‘red’”.
Ibn Mandour says that the expression The Red People applies to the non-Arabs because of their whiteness and because of the fact that most of them are fair-skinned. He says that the Arabs used to call the non-Arabs such as the Romans and the Persians and their neighbors, The Red People. He also says that when the Arabs say that someone is white, they mean that he has a noble character–they don’t mean that he is white. He says that the Arabs call the slaves The Red People. This is because most of the slaves of the Arabs were white (red). Click below for original in Arabic.
Al Dhahabi says “Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying ‘…(He was) a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome, and Persia”. So it must be understood that what people call “white” today was called “red” by the Arabs of the past. Click below for original in Arabic."
Tariq Berry, the explanation on color complexion by Arabic means.
quote: I assume that you don't believe that the Arabs of the past used the term "abyad" to mean a complexion much darker than what the term means today. I assume that you don't believe that the term "abyad" meant to the Arabs of the past a complexion which is considered black today. So let's begin with the definition of "abyad". Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Al-Dhahabi says in volume 2 of his book Siyar A'alaam Al-Nubalaa:
إن العرب إذا قالت : فلان أبيض ، فإنهم يريدون الحنطي اللون بحلية سوداء
"Verily, when the Arabs said that so-and-so was abyad (white), they meant that he had a hinti complexion with a black hilya."
Now. To show readers what is meant by a hinti complexion, I'm posting a link to a person described as hinti complexioned in Arabic:
Next to the photo is written: لون البشرة : حنطي (Complexion: Hinti)
Remember that Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Al-Dhahabi describes abyad (white) as a hinti complexion WITH A BLACK HILYA. The hilya of a person is what is apparent in a person's color or appearance. In his book Lisaan Al-Arab, Ibn Mandhour describes hilya as "appearance":
So Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Al-Dhahabi describes abyad (white) not simply as hinti complexioned, but as a hinti complexion WITH A BLACK APPEARANCE. Do you disagree with anything I've said so far?
Old thread. Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Topology Atlas || Conferences
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [QB] [QUOTE]This is notable in that it says " "In the North of Mali there live white Berbers" (possibly mulatto in this context)
By white is not meant white as Europeans, but light skin by complexion. Tribal members like Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna, in Europe or America these people would be considered black.
Dana posted on this many times. Including the texted you've cited.
Think of it like this:
Stated by Tariq Berry -
quote: "White أبيض
One of these misunderstood terms is the term “white” ابيض . Most people think that when the Arabs of the past described a person’s complexion as “white”, they meant the same light complexion that is meant today. This isn’t true at all. When the Arabs described a person as “white”, they actually meant a dark complexion.
The people you have posted are not of a a dark complexion
Your second long post here on climate is off topic It's disruptive to the readability of the thread, regardless if it's "nice information"
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^^^
I know you have difficulty with prossessing the info.
I will explain it, ... once more.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
quote: In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ..
The journal speaks of migrations of humans. And inhabitation, the sub-case is climatoly.
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
So, why did I post it, because of your disruptive manners.
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Carlos Benitez-Torres (Summer Institute of Linguistics) & Anthony Grant (Edge Hill University)
The Origin of Northern Songhay Languages: a Comparative Study of mixed language genesis
Tadaksahak, Tagdal and Tasawaq are three Northern Songhay languages located in the Republic of Niger, with Tadaksahak straddling the border between Niger and Mali. Benítez-Torres (2009) suggests that Tagdal, and by extension Tadaksahak, is a mixed language. In other words, they are the result of bilingualism between Tamashaq (Berber) and Songhay, with speakers at one time using their normal speech patterns to underline and establish a separate social identity. (In this respect they are similar to Kwarandzyey, a Nothern Songhay language spoken in Tabelbala, Algeria; Souag 2010). Lexically Songhay elements are core but are outnumbered by elements from Tamashaq (and to a lesser extent other languages such as Hausa and Arabic). In this paper, certain structures of all three Northern Songhay languages are compared. First, we discuss certain aspects of the inflectional morphological structures of the three languages - the pronominal sub-system, the TAM sub-system and negation. Then certain derivational structures - specifically, the Causative, Passive Voice and the Reflexive constructions – are discussed and compared.
Afterward, we compare the three langages to other languages that were the result of contact. Finally, tentative conclusions are drawn concerning the origins of all three languages, and we suggest some possible theoretical implications for the formation of mixed languages as a whole.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: ^^^
I know you have difficulty with prossessing the info.
I will explain it, ... once more.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
quote: In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ..
The journal speaks of migrations of humans. And inhabitation, the sub-case is climatoly.
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
So, why did I post it, because of your disruptive manners.
You didn't explian anything. You have a quote about refuges in the Sahelian belt and have not explained how that relates to the people or what is being discussed
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
Similarly it's semantics to call Barack Obama "black'
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Africa(Berber term?) Afica(Northern Afghanistan) Apricot Capricorn Apple/Apollo amba(Nanai) tiger/orange apa(Mbuti) fire ape(Ainu) fire api(Malay) fire
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: ^^^
I know you have difficulty with prossessing the info.
I will explain it, ... once more.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
quote: In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ..
The journal speaks of migrations of humans. And inhabitation, the sub-case is climatoly.
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
So, why did I post it, because of your disruptive manners.
You didn't explian anything. You have a quote about refuges in the Sahelian belt and have not explained how that relates to the people or what is being discussed
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
Similarly it's semantics to call Barack Obama "black'
What has Obama to do with the subject? We speak of populations from South-Central Sahara.LOL
Anyway, in America he, just like those other individuals is black, as I have stated before in my previous posts.
quote: They were physically indistinguishable from the other indigenous inhabitants of early North Africa and, at the end of the Roman Empire, were often categorized as Berbers.
quote: The Tuareg are descended from Berbers in the region that is now Libya, and also from ancient Saharan peoples. Following the independence of African countries in the 1960s, Tuareg territory was artificially divided into modern nations: Niger, Mali, Algeria, Libya, and Burkina Faso. The Tuareg adopted camel nomadism, along with its distinctive form of social organization, from camel-herding Arabs about two thousand years ago.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
Similarly it's semantics to call Barack Obama "black'
Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:
The population of Algeria is 35,190,000 (January 2009 est.), with 99% classified ethnically as Arab or Berber. About 90% of Algerians live in the northern, coastal area; the minority who inhabit the Sahara are mainly concentrated in oases, although some 1.5 million remain nomadic or partly nomadic. Almost 30% of Algerians are under the age of 15. Algeria has the fourth lowest fertility rate in the Greater Middle East, after those of Cyprus, Tunisia, and Turkey.
The ethnic ancestry of most Algerians is composed of Berbers (mostly Zenatas and Numidians) and Middle-East populations who settled Northwest Africa at various period of the history such as ancient Punics and Arabs (such as Banu Hilal tribes)."
Mande Sewn Boat
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I hate to echo Hore but what's 'possible' is different from what WAS!![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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