Certain countries of west africa in the early modern times and last half or later medieval times had the most advanced civilizations in africa.
Great cultural creativity took place and not just in timbuktu.technology seems to be on the same basic level as medieval nubia and early modern nubia but more research will have to be done on the latter. Anyway here is a article on early west africa. peace.
Medieval African texts take spotlight 30,000 documents hailed as proof of African scholarship Updated: 1:45 p.m. ET Sept 30, 2005
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa - A collection of medieval manuscripts from Timbuktu that academics hail as proof of an African scholarly tradition go on public show on the continent for the first time on Friday.
Timbuktu in Mali, West Africa, has been trumpeted as the epicenter of Africa’s intellectual heritage, and the discovery of 30,000 lost texts has challenged the stereotype of Africa as a continent with no written history.
South African President Thabo Mbeki has spearheaded a project to protect the texts from illegal trafficking and disrepair by building a new library in the old Islamic city.
“The translation and publication of the manuscripts of Timbuktu will restore the self-respect, the pride, honor and dignity of the people of Africa,” Mbeki told a dinner to raise funds for Operation Timbuktu earlier this week.
An exhibition in Johannesburg will showcase 16 of the most impressive Timbuktu manuscripts, written in ornate calligraphy.
While another collection of Timbuktu manuscripts has been exhibited in the United States, these particular documents are on show for the first time.
Sitting at the gate of the vast Sahara desert and synonymous with exoticism and mystery, Timbuktu was Africa’s intellectual and cultural heart 500 years ago, where merchants would trade gold from West Africa in exchange for salt and other goods.
Founded in 1100 by Tourag nomads, the city was home to many large private libraries and thousands of students.
The documents have been found stashed underneath mud homes or in desert caves, attracting an increasing number of scholars in recent years intent on restoration.
Some in Arabic and some in African languages, they shed light on Timbuktu’s role as a center for peacekeeping in the conflict-ridden tribal region during its glory days, and bear testament to a moderate African version of Islam.
“Not only are we preserving the heritage of Timbuktu, of the Islamic world and Africa, but we are preserving a message of love and peace, of living together in a multicultural world,” said Mbeki, noting that Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in peace together in medieval Timbuktu.
Under the restoration project, South Africa has trained Malian curators to restore the texts, which date back to the 13th century and were used to teach astrology, mathematics, science, medicine, religion, economics and other subjects.
The texts, which are kept in the Ahmed Baba Institute and more than 20 other private libraries in Timbuktu, are in danger of being destroyed without better care, said South Africa’s Standard Bank, which is hosting the exhibition.
note- the mande are the africans that built the city of timbuktu even if it was founded by tourag nomads.
The Tuaregs are a nomadic people so I am a bit sceptical that they founded Tomboktoo. Who made this claim? A Western historian--with a racist agenda? Figure that one out!
Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
Well Lamin,
Maybe it is wrong. But the Tuaregs ranged from Black-skinned to light-skinned. So maybe it isn't a racist assumption. It could be wrong, but not necessarily a racist assumption.....And who knows, maybe it is the truth.......
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
The word Timbuktu according to what I read is a tamelsheq work that refered to a belly button of a female. When the Tuaregs[Kel tamelsheq] founded it they did not make it into the city of learning that later Mande Muslims did. The city was originally nothing more than a camel post. Most books I read on this subject seem to also give the origin of Tombuktu as the following.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Timbuktu, afaik, was founded as a transhumance station by pastoralist attached to the Kel Tamasheq. It got its name from Bukt, a Bella woman they left in charge of a well they sunk there sometime in the 11th century.
The word Timbuktu derives from TinBukt. Many Kel Tamasheq or Zenaga place names use word "tin" (possesion, belonging).
Ras et Tin
Tin Atkoum
Tindouf
Tin Ekkart
Hassi Tin Fouchaye
Tinidjaouine
Tin Yagguine
Tin Zaouatane
Bukt may not be a proper name but a nickname with connotations of big navel, well, or even a generic for some occupation kept in the hands of the Bella.
As already stated, Timbuktu was founded by Kel Tamasheq (Tuareg). They were Tenguaragif Markasigghi (Maksara) who used the location as a camp which they turned into a minor oasis settlement tended by Bella in their absence during the winter Niger flood season.
Because of the permanent encampment, Mali bound caravans from Algeria and Libya rested and reprovisioned there (you could say like a modern day truckstop on the interstate).
It didn't really become a town until merchants from Djenne settled there and introduced their baked brick housing and erect the Ghingaraber Masjid.
Since its founding Timbuktu has changed hands many times. The Touareg nominated governors who levied higher and higher taxes as the town's prosperity increased. When the residents felt the tax was too exhorbitant they welcomed Mali domination under Mansa Gonga (Kankan) Musa. Not much later the Mossi pillaged the improved city now with a pyramidal minaret atop the Ghingaraber Masjid and a palace both added by Mansa Musa. The Mandinka re-established their control but later the Maksara ousted them.
Omar, a Maksara governor of Timbuktu was deposed of his office in revenge gave away vital intelligence to Sunni Heli (Ali) who captured the city. Many Kel Tamasheq and Sankore Masjid scholars fled to Walata in fear of the Songhai emperor's policies.
Now part of Songhai, Timbuktu gains renewed prosperity. Songhai immigrate to the city, adding to the Djennereans, counterbalancing the Imazighen (Berbers) and the Arabs. Dialects of Djenne and Gao became current usage, Arabic the lingua franca.
Information appreciated. The gaps were filled in--because to just claim that Timboktoo was founded by Tuaregs is misleading because the fame of Timboktoo comes from its being a famous intellectual centre in Africa. Now the information we have has been dissemninated by Western scholars who are always looking for ways to deny Africanity to aspects of Africa having to do with intellectual creativity and interests. I admit that the Tuaregs are African but race-conscious Westerners usually don't make that claim--hence they can eagerly write that Tomboktoo was founded by Tuaregs.
In fact some have even claimed that the majority of scholars of Tomboktoo were Berbers(Ahmed Baba) or not real blacks.
Of course, the classic case of this kind of thinking is Ancient Egypt and Kush.
Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
Lamin,
I thought that Ahmed Baba was Black.......wasn't he? Concerning the Black scholars of Timbuktu, I believe that there were alot of Black scholars in Timbuktu. Perhaps the vast majority were Black. How could it not be that way, since one particular school in Timbuktu, for instance, had over 25,000 students from all over West Africa per year!? Don't believe me, check Henry Louis Gates's trip to Timbuktu...... I think, however, that things might have changed a little bit in Timbuktu after the Morrocan invasion in 1592. Salaam
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
sorry to respond to this so late but i have been busy. I Think timbuktu was control by the mande before mansa musa took over the city ,i could be wrong but i read about this some time ago about early african cities.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
No. Timbuktu before Mansa Gonga (Kankan) Musa was firmly in Kel Tamasheq hands and they appointed the city's governors and levied taxes on its citizenry.
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: I Think timbuktu was control by the mande before mansa musa took over the city ,i could be wrong but i read about this some time ago about early african cities.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
you are right.take alook at this info.
From Trading Post to Commercial Empire Around 1100 C.E., a Tuareg woman called Buktu the settled Timbuktu as a seasonal camp. Grazing her herds and flocks during the dry season not far from the Niger River, she discovered an oasis and decided to set up a tented camp and dig a well there. Very soon, the little seasonal camp, called Timbuktu (literally Buktu's well) became an important stop for other nomads as well as the caravans travelling along the trans-Saharan route.
Although the Tuaregs founded Timbuktu, it was merchants who set up markets and built fixed dwellings in the town to establish the site as a meeting place for people travelling by camel. The caravan trade had existed long before the founding of Timbuktu. Most likely by around 400 B.C., Berber middlemen had already established early trans-Saharan trade routes between West and North Africa. Three hundred years later the trade expanded with the growing use of camels in place of horses and donkeys.
Towards the end of the first millennium C.E., the West African kingdom of Ghana, the region's first great empire, had organized and taken control of the long-distance trade of gold and salt, along with slaves and valuable goods such as kola nuts. From the north, thousands of camels in caravans carried salt from deposits to the city where merchants would transport it down the Niger to other parts of Africa. At the same time, goods—the most important being gold—came along the river from the south. In ancient Africa, salt was sometimes worth more than gold! Here is the link for more info. about the great african city of timbuktu. http://www.history.com/classroom/unesco/timbuktu/history.html Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Yeap; Timbuktu was in the hands of the Tuaregs before Mansa Musa seized it, but the famed city of Timbuktu that most folks have become familiar with, is a legacy of Mansa Musa's Malian empire.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Actually, Timbuktu began its road to reknown when Djennerean merchants settled there and turned the overgrown Kel Tamasheq caravanserai into a bonified Sahelian Sudanese city.
Kel Tamasheq continued political control over the site but immigrants from Djenne with, by the time, at least 700 years experience in civics initiated its major exchange place economy, intellectual life, and religious propensities.
After that, each further ethnic influx to the city jointly contributed to what would become its reknowned legacy.
Arabs from the Mashreq and the Mizrahh discovered their assessment of Sudanese mental capacity to be no more than racial bias. The Arabs were no where near par with the learned Sudanese intellegentsia of Timbuktu. One Arab was so embarassed by his own stupidity in comparison to Timbuktu's Sudanese (i.e., BLACKS) expertise in jurisprudence that he packed up, took off to the Maghreb, studied up real hard on some jurisprudence to raise himself to a level of excellence that the Sudanese would quit mocking him.
On the otherhand, Timbuktu's Black scholars held seats in the universities throughtout the African Dar ul Islam.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
Don't need to go too far to get a basic snapshot of Timbuktu's development...
Towards the end of the first millennium C.E., the West African kingdom of Ghana, the region's first great empire, had organized and taken control of the long-distance trade of gold and salt, along with slaves and valuable goods such as kola nuts. From the north, thousands of camels in caravans carried salt from deposits to the city where merchants would transport it down the Niger to other parts of Africa….
Although the Tuaregs founded Timbuktu in the early twelfth century, they were nomads who kept only loose control over the city. As the town became increasingly important to the gold and salt trades, it was captured from the Tuaregs and brought under the reign of the Mali Empire, the second great West African kingdom, and the first great Muslim kingdom, in the Sudan. Timbuktu, which began as a modest Tuareg trading post, eventually developed into a major trading center that connected North Africa with West Africa.
In 1312 Mansa Moussa, the most legendary of the Malian kings, came to the throne. Mansa Moussa was a devout Muslim who built magnificent mosques throughout his empire in order to spread the influences of Islam. During his reign, Timbuktu became one of the major cultural centers of not only Africa but of the entire Islamic world.
When Mansa Moussa came to power, the Mali Empire already had firm control of the trade routes to the southern lands of gold and the northern lands of salt. Under Moussa's reign, the gold-salt trade across the Sahara came to focus ever more closely on Timbuktu. The city's wealth, like that of many towns involved in the trans-Saharan trade route, was based largely on the trade of gold, salt, ivory, kola nuts, and slaves…
Under Moussa's patronage, the city of Timbuktu grew in wealth and prestige, and became a meeting place of the finest poets, scholars, and artists of Africa and the Middle East…
Mansa Moussa brought the Mali Empire to the attention of the rest of the Muslim world with his famous pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324. He arrived in Cairo at the head of a huge caravan, which included 60,000 people and 80 camels carrying more than two tons of gold to be distributed among the poor. Of the 12,000 servants who accompanied the caravan, 500 carried staffs of pure gold. Moussa spent lavishly in Egypt, giving away so many gold gifts—and making gold so plentiful—that its value fell in Cairo and did not recover for a number of years!…
In Cairo, the Sultan of Egypt received Moussa with great respect, as a fellow Muslim. The splendor of his caravan caused a sensation and brought Mansa Moussa and the Mali Empire fame throughout the Arab world. Mali had become so famous by the fourteenth century that it began to draw the attention of European mapmakers. In one map, produced in 1375, Moussa is shown seated on a throne in the center of West Africa, holding a nugget of gold in his right hand.
After visiting the holy cities of Mecca and Medina on his pilgrimage, Moussa set out to build great mosques, vast libraries, and madrasas (Islamic universities) throughout his kingdom. Many Arab scholars, including the poet and architect, Abu-Ishaq Ibrahim-es-Saheli, who helped turn Timbuktu into a famous city of Islamic scholarship, returned with him.
Moussa had always encouraged the development of learning and the expansion of Islam. In the early years of his reign, Moussa had sent Sudanese scholars to study at Moroccan universities. By the end of his reign, Sudanese scholars were setting up their own centers of learning in Timbuktu.
Moussa had always encouraged the development of learning and the expansion of Islam. In the early years of his reign, Moussa had sent Sudanese scholars to study at Moroccan universities. By the end of his reign, Sudanese scholars were setting up their own centers of learning in Timbuktu.
During Moussa's reign Timbuktu thrived as a commercial center and flourished into a hub of Islamic learning. Even after the Mali Empire lost control over the region in the fifteenth century, Timbuktu remained the major Islamic center of sub-Saharan Africa…
The Songhay Empire: The Golden Age of Timbuktu As Timbuktu enjoyed unprecedented success under Moussa, another developing West African kingdom, the Songhay Empire, was increasing its influence over the western Sudan. In about 1464, King Sonni Ali Ber came to the Songhay throne. An able and ambitious ruler, he sent his army to capture the valuable city of Timbuktu in 1468...
Leo Africanus, a famous traveler and writer who visited Timbuktu during the reign of Askia Mohamed, wrote the following of the city's intellectual life: "In Timbuktu there are numerous judges, doctors and clerics, all receiving good salaries from the king. He pays great respect to men of learning. There is a big demand for books in manuscript, imported from Barbary. More profit is made from the book trade than from any line of business."1 Under Askia Mohamed's rule, scholarship and Islam were once again revered and supported, ushering in a new era of stability that led to Timbuktu's sixteenth-century golden age.
Askia Mohamed had created the largest and the wealthiest of all the kingdoms of the Sudan. He had a well-administered state, probably the most highly organized of all the African states. With a stable and efficient government and with the support of the Muslim scholars, religious leaders, and traders, Askia Mohamed had made Songhay a great trading empire and a center of Muslim scholarship and learning.
Scholars from all over the Islamic world came to the University of Sankore (as well as the city's over 180 madersas) where courses as varied as theology, Islamic law, rhetoric, and literature were taught. The university was housed in the Sankore Mosque built with a remarkably large pyramidal mihrab in the declining years of the Mali Empire. The university, one of the first in Africa, became so famous that scholars came to it from all over the Muslim world. At this period in African history, the University of Sankore was the educational capital of the western Sudan, where 25,000 students studied a rigorous academic program.
In the book, Timbuctoo the Mysterious, French author Felix Dubois describes the intellectual accomplishments of the ancient African university: "The scholars of Timbuctoo yielded in nothing, to the saints in the sojourns in the foreign universities of Fez, Tunis, and Cairo. They astounded the most learned men of Islam by their erudition. That these Negroes were on a level with the Arabian savants is proved by the fact that they were installed as professors in Morocco and Egypt. In contrast to this, we find that Arabs were not always equal to the requirements of Sankore." 2 As a center of intellectual achievement, Timbuktu earned a place next to Cairo and other leading North African cities.
1Davidson, Basil. The Lost Cities of Africa. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1970), p. 93.
2Dubois, Felix. Timbuctoo the Mysterious. (London: W. Heinemann, 1897), p. 285.
The implications here are clear: Sure Timbuktu existed before being incorporated into the Malian empire, sure there was a lot of activity there before its seizure by the Malian empire, including becoming an important trading post within the trans-Saharan trade network, and hence the state in which it [Timbuktu] was incorporated into the Malian empire should be seen as an evolution of activities from earlier periods, but it was Mansa Musa who initially put Timbuktu on the world map.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
IT LOOKS like jenne-jeno goes back to 300b.c. and other cities rivaled timbuktu in mali.
Mali Fact Sheet
History As early as one million B.C. there has been life in Mali. Cave paintings show the Sahara as a blossoming paradise. One of the first settlements of West Africa, Jenne-Jeno, was established in Mali around 300 B.C. and then came a long history of rich and influential empires to rule in the area. The Empire of Ghana had seated itself in the area that is today Mali and because of their lack of enthusiasm for Islam, the empire was destroyed in the 11th century by Muslim Berbers from Mauritania and Morocco.
In the middle of the 13th century, Sundiata Keita founded the Empire of Mali that expanded its rule from present-day Senegal to Niger. In 1235 Sundiata had worked with many outlying chiefs and their villages to rally support and overthrow the king of Soso who killed Sundiata’s father. He worked hard to expand the empire’s control over the trans-Saharan trade route and gold fields in his 25-year rule. The grandchild of Sundiata’s brother, Mansa Musa, became the emperor in 1307. Within 20 years of him coming to power, he led the Empire to the capture of Timbuktu. As a devout follower of Islam, Mansa Musa made Timbuktu into a great center for culture, learning, and trade by forming a university and capitalizing on the increase in use of the trans-Saharan trade route. One of Mansa Musa’s most famous stories is about his hajj, or pilgrimage, to Mecca. Musa traveled to Mecca and brought 100 camels loaded with 300 pounds of gold each and 500 slaves - each carrying a gold staff - with him and when he arrived he gave all of his gold away and actually had to borrow money to return home. The legend is that Musa flooded the market with so much gold that the value of gold dropped for many years. Musa’s hajj also put Mali on the world map as a center of riches and his strengthening of Islam made it famous as a cultural center.
Djenné was founded in about 300 BCE by the Bozo people at a site known as Djenné-Jeno, 1.5 km upstream. It moved its site in either 1043 or the 13th century, when the city converted to Islam. This increased its importance as a market and a base for trans-Saharan trade, soon rivalling Timbuktu.
Djenné was part of the Mali Empire between 1325 and 1473; the Songhai Empire under Sonni Ali subsequently took charge. In 1591, Morocco conquered the city. By the 1600s, Djenné had become a thriving centre of trade and learning. Caravans from Djenné frequented southern trading towns like Begho, Bono Manso, and Bonduku.
The city continued to change hands several times. Djenné was part of the Bambara kingdom from 1670 to 1818, Macina under the Fulani ruler Amadou Lobbo from 1818 to 1861, and the Toucouleur Empire under Umar Tall from 1861 to 1893. The French finally conquered the city that year. During this period, trade declined and the city's importance with it. http://www.answers.com/main/ntq-tname-djenn-fts_start-
note-there is a mistake in the link. djenne was conqured before 1473. and as we know other cities rival timbuktu in learning and culture.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Other than the etymology of the word Timbuktu, its initial founding, and the "Bukt" mythos, my basic source for what I wrote about Timbuktu was from Felix Dubois' book as he quoted from the Tarikh el Fettash and Tarikh es Sudan, two tomes authored by Sudanese scholars, Kati and Baba respectively.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
note- in one of link above it says that the bambara is a ethnic group.that would be incorrect.they are a language group that belongs to the mande speaking ethnic group.
Posted by tuaregwodabe (Member # 11813) on :
'Destruction of black civilization' by Chancellor Williams is a good book. Also Timbuktu is the first site of civilisation of Africa. Also was the first mecca. Until they changed it to saudi Arabia. Arabs think they own Islam and they would be surprised to know that the first muslims were blacks. of the cland arabah, a tribe with family name Bah in west africa. Who shortened their name. also called oururbe. The clan jallowbe (diallos) were originally Jews. The prophet Muhammed was Ethiopian because he had his family in Abyssinia, today's Ethiopia.
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by tuaregwodabe: 'Destruction of black civilization' by Chancellor Williams is a good book. Also Timbuktu is the first site of civilisation of Africa. Also was the first mecca. Until they changed it to saudi Arabia. Arabs think they own Islam and they would be surprised to know that the first muslims were blacks. of the cland arabah, a tribe with family name Bah in west africa. Who shortened their name. also called oururbe. The clan jallowbe (diallos) were originally Jews. The prophet Muhammed was Ethiopian because he had his family in Abyssinia, today's Ethiopia.
Drivel Drivel Drivel Posted by Israel (Member # 11221) on :
It is too bad that the great scholar Edward Blyden didn't have the opportunity to converse with the scholars of Islam within the famed city of Timbuktu. By his time, Timbuktu was already on the downfall(at least I think it was), but it was still a major cultural center and place of Islamic learning. I bet cha he wanted to go! I know he did, cause I want to go! lol. Salaam
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
Jenne-jeno in mali is older than timbuktu,and besides timbuktu was formed in the middle ages and there were other older cities and towns in mali and west africa.
In west africa and other certain parts of africa there are civilizations older than mali like the nok in west africa and some others in other areas in africa.
Timbuktu was a center of learning but there were otherS as well in west africa,timbuktu advanced the learning and culture IN AFRICA FURTHER and OTHER cities,TOWNS etc... in mali and certain other civiliztions in west africa caught up.
Other great cities existed too in africa and there were many,but it was west africa in later medievel times and early modern times that had the most advanced civilizations in africa and in world.
mecca was not the first site of civilization either,of course some civilizations in west africa is older than the civilization of mecca or the arabs.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Kenndo
quote:
Other great cities existed too in africa and there were many,but it was west africa in later medievel times and early modern times that had the most advanced civilizations in africa and in world.
What about the Swahili Cities?
.
Posted by Yonis (Member # 7684) on :
Kenndo:
quote:it was west africa in later medievel times and early modern times that had the most advanced civilizations in africa and in world .
Isn't this a little bit of a bold statement, you seriously don't believe this, right? your statement might have had some little merit if you just settled with most advanced in Africa but "the world"? Com'n, I think you need to put that pipe down and sober up,lol
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The ethnocentric, average, and casual reader prefers sensationalist webpages with accompanying erroneous data and conclusions over sober readings and posted material culled from scholarly works.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Kenndo:
quote:it was west africa in later medievel times and early modern times that had the most advanced civilizations in africa and in world .
Isn't this a little bit of a bold statement, you seriously don't believe this, right? your statement might have had some little merit if you just settled with most advanced in Africa but "the world"? Com'n, I think you need to put that pipe down and sober up,lol
One arab wrote when he went to west africa in the 1300's he observe the customs and behavior .He said they were the most civilized folks he knew and women were treated with the greatest respect.HE TRAVELED IN MANY PLACES IN AFRICA AND ASIA AT THAT TIME.FROM NORTH AFRICA ,PARTS OF WEST AFRICA,EAST AFRICA AND BEYOND.
Learning standards and knowledge BECAME more advanced there AT THAT TIME.goverment was stable and well organized. I learn this from old school books as well.At least in these school books they did not hide this info,but i wished they would have told more at the time.I do not know how this info is taught today however.
Another example-
Ibn Battuta judges the character of the people of Mali quote- The negroes possess some admirable qualities. They are seldom unjust, and have a greater abhorrence of injustice than any other people. Their sultan shows no mercy to anyone who is guilty of the least act of it. There is complete security in their country. Neither traveller nor inhabitant in it has anything to fear from robbers or men of violence. They do not confiscate the property of any white man who dies in their country, even if it be uncounted wealth. On the contrary, they give it into the charge of some trustworthy person among the whites, until the rightful heir takes possession of it. They are careful to observe the hours of prayer, and assiduous in attending them in congregations, and in bringing up their children to them.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Arabs from the Mashreq and the Mizrahh discovered their assessment of Sudanese mental capacity to be no more than racial bias. The Arabs were no where near par with the learned Sudanese intellegentsia of Timbuktu. One Arab was so embarassed by his own stupidity in comparison to Timbuktu's Sudanese (i.e., BLACKS) expertise in jurisprudence that he packed up, took off to the Maghreb, studied up real hard on some jurisprudence to raise himself to a level of excellence that the Sudanese would quit mocking him.
On the otherhand, Timbuktu's Black scholars held seats in the universities throughtout the African Dar ul Islam. [/QB]
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Funny thing about these early literate and civilized West African civilizations. It makes the idea of the African slaves brought to America being illeterate and dumb totally FALSE:
quote: Virginia's first Africans spoke Bantu languages called Kimbundu and Kikongo. Their homelands were the kingdoms of Ndongo and Kongo, regions of modern-day Angola and coastal regions of Congo. Both were conquered by the Portuguese in the 1500s. The Africans mined tar and rock salt, used shells as money and highly valued their children, holding initiation ceremonies to prepare them for adulthood.
And they most likely had been baptized as Christians, because the kingdom of Ndongo converted to Christianity in 1490. Many were literate. This background may be one reason some of Virginia's first Africans won their freedom after years as indentured servants, the historians said.
Angola has long been trying to resist American colonial EXPLOITATION and the 30 year civil war is an example:
quote: Following World War II, independence movements began but were sternly suppressed by Portuguese military forces. The major nationalist organizations were the Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA), a Marxist party; National Front for the Liberation of Angola (FNLA); and the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA). After 14 years of war, Portugal finally granted independence to Angola in 1975. The MPLA, which had led the independence movement, has controlled the government ever since. But no period of peace followed Angola's long war for independence. UNITA disputed the MPLA's ascendancy, and civil war broke out almost immediately. With the Soviet Union and Cuba supporting the Marxist MPLA, and the United States and South Africa supporting the anti-Communist UNITA, the country became a cold war battleground.
Other great cities existed too in africa and there were many,but it was west africa in later medievel times and early modern times that had the most advanced civilizations in africa and in world.
Certainly socio-cultural complexes in Africa were at the least on par with the most advanced civilizations in the "Middle Ages", which at the time, outside of Africa, were mainly in southwest Asia [under the Islamic mantle], south [i.e. Indian sub-continent] and central Asia [China]. Heck, it was during this period that the African "Moors" ruled Spain. To put things into perspective, i.e. from an archeological one...
"The flood plain of the Middle Niger of West Africa is **line with** hundreds of ancient tells **rivaling** those of Asia both in area and in clues to the emergence of city life...the Middle Niger is dominated by numerous monumental tumuli (McIntosh 1991:203)." - R.J. McIntosh
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
I have never experienced anyone as clueless as tuaregwodabe. I am astounded/shocked by her apparent ignorance with regards to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING.
It should be a crime for her to utter a word until she learns something.
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis: Kenndo:
quote:it was west africa in later medievel times and early modern times that had the most advanced civilizations in africa and in world .
Isn't this a little bit of a bold statement, you seriously don't believe this, right? your statement might have had some little merit if you just settled with most advanced in Africa but "the world"? Com'n, I think you need to put that pipe down and sober up,lol
LOL. "pipe" jokes NEVER fail to hit the spot.
Anyway, I think kenndo does have a point. In medieval times, West Africa may have had the most advanced civilisations in the world if you consider Timbuktu, Songhay, Yoruba etc Correct me if I'm wrong but Egypt was down by that time and Europeans/Arabs had declined into savagery at the time (later to be "re-enlightened" by the Moors?). Maybe China was doing something big at the time, don't know for sure...
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
quote:Anyway, I think kenndo does have a point. In medieval times, West Africa may have had the most advanced civilisations in the world if you consider Timbuktu, Songhay, Yoruba etc Correct me if I'm wrong but Egypt was down by that time and Europeans/Arabs had declined into savagery at the time (later to be "re-enlightened" by the Moors?). Maybe China was doing something big at the time, don't know for sure...
Europeans except for the Byzantine was in the dark ages. Arabs had the various Islamic caliphs that preserved Greco-Roman knowleadge and improved upon it.
In India you had mathematical,scientific,and medical breakthroughs. Look up the oldest University in existence called Taxtila in modern day Pakistan and Nalanda in India. Most of the knowledge that was transplanted to Europe came from India via the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Iraq.
During the Middle Ages the most advanced were the people of India and China.
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
^^^ Cheers dude.
On a different note, I heard M. Gadalla once say Egyptians generally have harder skulls than other peoples' around the world. Have you ever heard of this?
Also, do you know much about M. Gadalla? Does he belong to the "elite" Egyptian community or he is a thoroughbred native?
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
Herukhuti said:
quote:On a different note, I heard M. Gadalla once say Egyptians generally have harder skulls than other peoples' around the world. Have you ever heard of this?
I never heard of this. When Mr. Gadalla says this you should ask him for some anthropological reference.
Herukhuti said:
quote:Also, do you know much about M. Gadalla? Does he belong to the "elite" Egyptian community or he is a thoroughbred native?
I personally don't know Mr. Gadalla. Never meet him personally. I tried to join his list but he told me he discontinued it. I was curious myself from which rural village Gadalla's family came from. Is he from the rural Delta or rural areas in Middle or Upper Egypt?
If that is his review of Baladi Women of Cairo by Evelyn A. Early then he is from the more native lower class Egyptians. Especially if he is from Bulaq Abu Ella in Cairo. Bulaq Abu Ella is a neighboorhood mostly inhabited by rural immigrants from the Delta or Middle or Upper Egypt.
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
^^^ His list has not been discontinued. I joined a few months ago and a thread was emailed to me just last week.
If you're still interested, try contacting him at MaatSoph@yahoogroups.com
I have learnt a lot from his books which is why I sought to join his forum. Unfortunately, I've developed some doubts as he never seems to allow another persons' point of view be heard.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Anyway, I think kenndo does have a point. In medieval times, West Africa may have had the most advanced civilisations in the world if you consider Timbuktu, Songhay, Yoruba etc Correct me if I'm wrong but Egypt was down by that time and Europeans/Arabs had declined into savagery at the time (later to be "re-enlightened" by the Moors?). Maybe China was doing something big at the time, don't know for sure...
Europeans except for the Byzantine was in the dark ages. Arabs had the various Islamic caliphs that preserved Greco-Roman knowleadge and improved upon it.
In India you had mathematical,scientific,and medical breakthroughs. Look up the oldest University in existence called Taxtila in modern day Pakistan and Nalanda in India. Most of the knowledge that was transplanted to Europe came from India via the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Iraq.
During the Middle Ages the most advanced were the people of India and China.
I have TO DISAGREE with you on this one.let's not forget that the arabs built upon the knowledge of india and it was sent to africa,and the west africans made advances when they got this knowledge later in mali they made some more advances more so on their own,in science,etc.
A FRENCH MAN went to djenne and took physician and a wife back to france. this doctor treated the future french king .west africa was know for thier advanced medical practices.djenne was also a well known medical center and leo africanus and al-kati agreed that the physicians there had advanced medical practices.THIS KNOWLEDGE was spread to the rest of mali and some other areas in west africa.
THE mosquito was isolated as the cause of malaria and doctors removed cataracts from the human eye. surgery and brain surgery was performed.
Astronomy BECAME MORE ADVANCED here too and advancements in government.
THE ARABIC script was used in africa and later africans in early modern times use the script for there own languages.the arabic is more a more developed script than the one in china,of course it was not as advanced as meriotic.
Morals were higher,and women were treated with greater respect.civilized life was more advanced. THE berber writer visited india and mali when he compared the two cultures he said the people of mali were more civilized.
let's not forget that kush,medieval nubia was on the level of india but in some respects more advanced,and mali was some other areas of west africa became more advanced than them in medieval times.
IT is safe too say that spain and africa were at least on par with asia,but if you consider the moral developements and the knowledge the africans built upon from the arabs,than i would say that certain civilization in east africa,west africa,north africa and in few other areas in africa were a little bit more advanced than india or china.
Posted by kawashkar (Member # 11828) on :
Hi,
With respect to Timbuktu, it is certain it was one of the main centers of learning of the Muslim world in the middle ages. But something even more important -I guess- is that unlike other places, the books of the Timbuktu's libraries still exist today. Who knows how many treasures are in there waiting for discovery. There is a project to recover those treasure in march already.
Now, I believe is important to consider African cultures outside the Muslim sphere of influence as well. I am fanatic of the study of less complex cultures, so I preffer to look down south in search of what, I believe, shows all the creativity of the Subsaharian peoples, particularly in arts. For me, the most interesting culture of Subsaharian Africa are located in Nigeria and Zimbabwe.Why? because they developed with less external influences and the arts of those regions are original and superb. Above all, I love IFE
KAWASHKAR
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
I HAD TOO edit SOME THINGS HERE -
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Anyway, I think kenndo does have a point. In medieval times, West Africa may have had the most advanced civilisations in the world if you consider Timbuktu, Songhay, Yoruba etc Correct me if I'm wrong but Egypt was down by that time and Europeans/Arabs had declined into savagery at the time (later to be "re-enlightened" by the Moors?). Maybe China was doing something big at the time, don't know for sure...
Europeans except for the Byzantine was in the dark ages. Arabs had the various Islamic caliphs that preserved Greco-Roman knowleadge and improved upon it.
In India you had mathematical,scientific,and medical breakthroughs. Look up the oldest University in existence called Taxtila in modern day Pakistan and Nalanda in India. Most of the knowledge that was transplanted to Europe came from India via the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Iraq.
During the Middle Ages the most advanced were the people of India and China.
I have TO DISAGREE with you on this one.let's not forget that the arabs built upon the knowledge of india and it was sent to africa,and the west africans made advances when they got this knowledge later in mali they made some more advances more so on their own,in science,etc.
A FRENCH MAN went to djenne and took physician and a wife back to france. this doctor treated the future french king .west africa was known for thier advanced medical practices.Djenne was also a well known medical center and leo africanus and al-kati agreed that the physicians there had advanced medical practices.THIS KNOWLEDGE was spread to the rest of mali and some other areas in west africa.
THE mosquito was isolated as the cause of malaria and doctors removed cataracts from the human eye. surgery and brain surgery was performed.
Astronomy BECAME MORE ADVANCED here too and advancements in government.
THE ARABIC script was used in africa and later africans in early modern times use the script for there own languages.the arabic is more a more developed script than the one in china,of course it was not as advanced as meriotic.
Morals were higher,and women were treated with greater respect.civilized life was more advanced. THE berber writer visited india and mali when he compared the two cultures he said the people of mali were more civilized.
let's not forget that kush,medieval nubia was on the level of india but in some respects more advanced,and mali AND some other areas of west africa became more advanced than MEDIEVAL NUBIA in medieval times.
IT is safe too say that spain and africa were at least on par with asia,but if you consider the moral developements and the knowledge the africans built upon from the arabs,than i would say that certain civilization in east africa,west africa,north africa and in few other areas in africa were a little bit more advanced than india or china.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: I HAD TOO edit SOME THINGS HERE -
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Anyway, I think kenndo does have a point. In medieval times, West Africa may have had the most advanced civilisations in the world if you consider Timbuktu, Songhay, Yoruba etc Correct me if I'm wrong but Egypt was down by that time and Europeans/Arabs had declined into savagery at the time (later to be "re-enlightened" by the Moors?). Maybe China was doing something big at the time, don't know for sure...
Europeans except for the Byzantine was in the dark ages. Arabs had the various Islamic caliphs that preserved Greco-Roman knowleadge and improved upon it.
In India you had mathematical,scientific,and medical breakthroughs. Look up the oldest University in existence called Taxtila in modern day Pakistan and Nalanda in India. Most of the knowledge that was transplanted to Europe came from India via the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Iraq.
During the Middle Ages the most advanced were the people of India and China.
I have TO DISAGREE with you on this one.let's not forget that the arabs built upon the knowledge of india and it was sent to africa,and the west africans made advances when they got this knowledge later in mali they made some more advances more so on their own,in science,etc.
A FRENCH MAN went to djenne and took physician and a wife back to france. this doctor treated the future french king .west africa was known for thier advanced medical practices.Djenne was also a well known medical center and leo africanus and al-kati agreed that the physicians there had advanced medical practices.THIS KNOWLEDGE was spread to the rest of mali and some other areas in west africa.
THE mosquito was isolated as the cause of malaria and doctors removed cataracts from the human eye. surgery and brain surgery was performed.
Astronomy BECAME MORE ADVANCED here too and advancements in government.
THE ARABIC script was used in africa and later africans in early modern times use the script for there own languages.the arabic is more a more developed script than the one in china,of course it was not as advanced as meriotic.
Morals were higher,and women were treated with greater respect.civilized life was more advanced. THE berber writer visited india and mali when he compared the two cultures he said the people of mali were more civilized.
let's not forget that kush,medieval nubia was on the level of india but in some respects more advanced,and mali AND some other areas of west africa became more advanced than MEDIEVAL NUBIA in medieval times.
IT is safe too say that spain and africa were at least on par with asia,but if you consider the moral developements and the knowledge the africans built upon from the arabs,than i would say that certain civilization in east africa,west africa,north africa and in few other areas in africa were a little bit more advanced than india or china.
I agree that many black Muslims were important in the development of learning and science, however, how do you determine whether a specific author is Black African amongst the scholars at Timbuktu? It is an important issue.
Likewise, it must be noted as well that even the Persian and Arab scientists were basing their knowledge off of ancient Greek and Egyptian stuff. A very important person within the history of Medicine and pharmacy, a Persian Muslim scientist, was a practicionor of al-khemi. What later became chemistry:
This talk of which is the greatest, which is the most advanced, etc., is crazy. No one has any objective measuring device to back up their opinion.
In each era some civilizations have comparative technologies that others don't share in and still others are far from near acheiving or assimilating.
In general terms applied to political economies Muslim civilization was a 1st World power between 1100 and 1500. Inward looking China was also a 1st World power. I feel that India was more on the order of a 2nd World power and that's the best I can say for the Western Sahel of the time despite Mansa Musa I's show-off hajj that impacted Mali's economy though not as much as it did Egypt's.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
I HAVE TO DISAGREE .THE WESTERN SUDAN HAD FIRST WORLD POWERS,but let me say this first.
I THINK THERE is a way to objective to a certain extent about civilizations.The arabs and berbers were when they compared india with most of europe in the middle ages and with other civilizations,even if they had some bias you could still read between the lines.
IRAQ WAS CONQURED BY THE MONGOLS.The empire of the arabs was destroyed by 1200 a.d.I AM READING THIS BOOK NOW CALLED THE MIDDLE EAST IN THE MIDDLE AGES -THE EARLY MAMLUK SULTANATE, Mali had the second largest empire in the world in the 1300's and later,AND IT WAS AT LEAST as powerful as the mongel empire,but if the mongols were to go head to head with the empires of the western sudan the mongols would be defeated. songhay was even larger.
IT is safe to say that the THE EMPIRES IN THE western sahael region HAD first world powers.
GHANA DEFEATED THE ARAB invaders in the north and expanded it's rule.Mali and songhay conqured regions to the coast and up in the north. arab,moorish and berber states were conqured.
In the 1300's mali was one of the greatest empire's of the time and one of the richest.SONGHAY WAS EVEN RICHER.Again this info is in school books and not hidden.they do out certain bacic facts however.the mali kingdom broke free in 1550 a.d. because they used the military tactics of the songhay just like the songhay earlier used the military tactics to break free from mali. ANOTHER POINT,MALI WAS WAS FAR RICHER THAN MAMLUK CONTROLLED EGPYT AND MORE POWERFUL.The western sudanese were great fighters in the medieval period.
THE MONGOLS could not even defeat the mamluks in egypt.THE WESTERN sudanese troops were the best in the medieval world .Arab writers and others always mention how well train they were.They were first rate and had special forces.The mossi were no joke either.
Medieval nubia was first rate troops as well and THEY defeated the arabs many times in egypt and even conqured egypt for a shory time when the arabs were burning churches .They could have kept egypt longer if they wanted too but they had no desire but they did rule uppper egypt for awhile and raided it too before and after.AXUM HAD FIRST RATE TROOPS AS WELL,BUT THE EMPIRES IN THE western sudan became more powerful the medieval nubia and axum.
THIER WAS A VERY LARGE EMPIRE IN NORTHEAST NIGERIA TOO,IT WAS NOT AS LARGE AS MALI OR SONGHAY AND POLITICALLY NOT as powerful as mali and songhay but they had first rate troops as well and managed to say free from songhay rule. THE FUNJ in te sudan had first rate troops and were able to conquer the last christian medieval nubian kingdom with some arab help and later the funj conqured the arabs around them.
THE funj were known to be great fighters,but they mess up as far as i am concern by having open door policies that speed up the pace of arabization in northern sudan.
Another point -chemisry did exist in ancient tmes in egypt,kush and some other places but it was not as advanced and widespread like it was in medieval and later times.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
EDITED- I THINK THERE is a way to be objective to a certain extent about civilizations.The arabs and berbers were when they compared india with europe in the middle ages and with other civilizations.
Another point-even if arabs and berbers had some bias WHEN they compared other civilizations to thier own you could still read between the lines.example- women had certain restrictions in mali but arab and berber writers criticized mandinka women in medieval mali because they were allowed too much freedom.
They went about unveiled and with thier breast showing at times,some women did this at times more than others,and they talked freely with men-other than thier husbands-on the streets,and in some places women had stalls in the market place.
In the 1200'S,1400'S AND MORE SO IN THE 1300's mali was one of the greatest empire's of the time and one of the richest.The SONGHAY WAS EVEN RICHER.Again this info is in school books and not hidden.IN SCHOOL BOOKS I HAVE READ IN the past they do leave out certain bacic facts however.
The mali kingdom broke free in 1550 a.d. because they used the military tactics of the songhay just like the songhay earlier used the military tactics to break free from mali.I DO NOT KNOW TODAY HOW THIS INFO is taught in schools.THE MANDE had a new empire in early modern times and they did had primitive guns and they did know how to make them.I DO NOT KNOW HOW RICH THEY BECAME in early modern times,but the mande in mali did become more rich again and there were improvements in the cities and more widespread learning again after in 1600's and later like it was in the 1500's and earlier. IT WAS AFTER THE MOORS INVADED that widespread learning slowed down in the late 1500's but widespread learning pick up again like i said in the 1600's and more so later.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: I HAD TOO edit SOME THINGS HERE -
quote:Originally posted by kenndo:
quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:Anyway, I think kenndo does have a point. In medieval times, West Africa may have had the most advanced civilisations in the world if you consider Timbuktu, Songhay, Yoruba etc Correct me if I'm wrong but Egypt was down by that time and Europeans/Arabs had declined into savagery at the time (later to be "re-enlightened" by the Moors?). Maybe China was doing something big at the time, don't know for sure...
Europeans except for the Byzantine was in the dark ages. Arabs had the various Islamic caliphs that preserved Greco-Roman knowleadge and improved upon it.
In India you had mathematical,scientific,and medical breakthroughs. Look up the oldest University in existence called Taxtila in modern day Pakistan and Nalanda in India. Most of the knowledge that was transplanted to Europe came from India via the House of Wisdom in Abbassid Iraq.
During the Middle Ages the most advanced were the people of India and China.
I have TO DISAGREE with you on this one.let's not forget that the arabs built upon the knowledge of india and it was sent to africa,and the west africans made advances when they got this knowledge later in mali they made some more advances more so on their own,in science,etc.
A FRENCH MAN went to djenne and took physician and a wife back to france. this doctor treated the future french king .west africa was known for thier advanced medical practices.Djenne was also a well known medical center and leo africanus and al-kati agreed that the physicians there had advanced medical practices.THIS KNOWLEDGE was spread to the rest of mali and some other areas in west africa.
THE mosquito was isolated as the cause of malaria and doctors removed cataracts from the human eye. surgery and brain surgery was performed.
Astronomy BECAME MORE ADVANCED here too and advancements in government.
THE ARABIC script was used in africa and later africans in early modern times use the script for their own languages.The arabic is a more developed script than the one in china,of course it was not as advanced as meriotic.
Morals were higher,and women were treated with greater respect.civilized life was more advanced. THE berber writer visited india and mali when he compared the two cultures he said the people of mali were more civilized.
let's not forget that kush,medieval nubia was on the level of india but in some respects more advanced,and mali AND some other areas of west africa became more advanced than MEDIEVAL NUBIA in medieval times.
edited- IT is safe too say that spain and africa were at least on par with asia,but if you consider the moral developements and the knowledge the africans built upon from the arabs,than i would say that civilizations in north africa,and certain civilizations in west africa,east africa and in few other areas in africa were a little bit more advanced than india or china.
I agree that many black Muslims were important in the development of learning and science, however, how do you determine whether a specific author is Black African amongst the scholars at Timbuktu? It is an important issue.
YOU HAVE A POINT,i guess more research will have to be done.I think progess is happening in this area,one thing however there were africans that did not change thier names or their whole names to arabic names.This IS A good start AS well.
Another point,ALOT OF written works HAVE BEEN FOUND RECENTLY in black private homes and private libraries,early UNIVERSITIES AND OTHER early PUBLIC PLACES in arabic and african languages AND in OTHER CITIES IN MALI,AND IN TOWNS AND VILLAGES,but most of this info is not deciphered yet.
THE WORKS THAT HAVE BEEN deciphered were very few the last time i check. Scholars today have alot of work to do,BUT certain scholars today DO KNOW MORE ABOUT early west africa today and early africa as awhole than they did a few years ago,but this info is hard to get for some strange reason.IT seems when we want to know more details about early africa it is harder to find in the west,but the french,germans, some others and certain african scholars are doing a great job but alot more detailed and update knowledge about early africa is not written in english,put there is growing progress there but slowly.IF YOU COULD READ FRENCH OR GERMAN THAN YOU COULD READ MORE DETAILED and up to date INFO ON AVERAGE.
Info about early africa has grown and kepts growing.
I HAVE A TAPE about kush and in the city of meroe a university may have developed there first, more and more info is coming in about early africa,BUT I HAVE TO GET MORE INFO ON THIS ONE.We know OF COURSE THAT temples were used as colleges in africa in ancient times AND AS WELL AS places to worship.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
edited-
ANOTHER POINT,MALI WAS WAS FAR RICHER THAN MAMLUK CONTROLLED EGYPT AND MORE POWERFUL. western sudanese were great fighters AND CERTAIN western sudanese groups in west africa were the best fighters in the medieval period.
Another example of advanced medical knowledge in west africa. QUOTE-
In 1711, and again in 1770, observers recorded that enslaved Africans suffered and died from Small Pox at a rate equal to Whites (Wood 1974:77). Africans knew about Small Pox and some of them knew about inoculation. Inoculation was practiced in Senegal and other parts of Africa by the negroes. Cotton Mather learned about inoculation from his African servant. The man showed Mather his smallpox scar and told him that you: “‘…take the Juice of the Small Pox, and Cut the Skin and put in a drop: then by ’nd by a little Sick, then a few Small Pox; and no body dye of it; no body have Small Pox any more (Morais 1968:8–16).’”
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I agree that many black Muslims were important in the development of learning and science, however, how do you determine whether a specific author is Black African amongst the scholars at Timbuktu? It is an important issue.
Why? This is almost like someone asking if there are any white scholars in Germany, and that it is an important issue.
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: Hi,
With respect to Timbuktu, it is certain it was one of the main centers of learning of the Muslim world in the middle ages. But something even more important -I guess- is that unlike other places, the books of the Timbuktu's libraries still exist today. Who knows how many treasures are in there waiting for discovery. There is a project to recover those treasure in march already.
Now, I believe is important to consider African cultures outside the Muslim sphere of influence as well. I am fanatic of the study of less complex cultures, so I preffer to look down south in search of what, I believe, shows all the creativity of the Subsaharian peoples, particularly in arts. For me, the most interesting culture of Subsaharian Africa are located in Nigeria and Zimbabwe.Why? because they developed with less external influences and the arts of those regions are original and superb. Above all, I love IFE
KAWASHKAR
Thanks! I am a proud native of IFE myself Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
EDITED-Medieval nubia had first rate troops as well and THEY defeated the arabs that invaded in medieval nubia and the arabs from egypt and arabs from other places many times and even conqured egypt for a short time TO STOP the arabs in egypt because the arabs were destroying churches there.The medieval nubians could have kept egypt longer if they wanted to but they had no desire to do that but they did rule uppper egypt for awhile and raided it too before and after.AXUM HAD FIRST RATE TROOPS AS WELL,BUT THE EMPIRES IN THE western sudan became more powerful than medieval nubia and axum. -------------------------------------------------- Don't respond to the above comment,i just wanted to edited WHEN i came back later.The time TO EDITED DOES NOT LAST LONG.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
THERE is alot of great cultures in nigeria and i would like to later read more details on them as well.There are alot of a books you could get in the west on early nigerian cultures.
The bcc said they even found a pyramid or tomb that was larger than the one in egypt under ground.
Another point islam and updated learning reach further south in a few areas as well.kenya,TANZANIA AND PARTS OF MOZAMBIQUE ARE some EXAMPLES, their learning was basically on par with medieval egypt but not as advanced as certain parts in west africa.THEY HAD REALLY nice looking cities too.I WOULD LIKE TO learn more about these areas too.
edited- WE CAN'T FORGET however that western europeans came to ife and other african cultures to trade and exchange ideas.
IN NIGERIA for example houses change and the gun was came to these areas and up to date learning from western europe, i think to some extent some up to date learning came in from northern nigeria and other areas in africa too,in other words africa became less isolated as time went on.
EDITED- There was extensive trading with african kingdoms that were islamic but even in these islamic african kingdoms many of the people were not muslims but they they got learning from black africans were were muslims or pratice islam and older african faiths.
This part WAS EDITED too - IN MALI FOR example most folks accepted islam only after the french conqured mali AND EVEN THEN alot of folks today still in mali practice the pagan faith with islam.Some still practice the older faiths and do not practice islam.The great MALI empire had a population of 45 million people and many were not muslims BUT learning was widespread and more so in early modern times.
IN THE BOOK-THE ROYAL KINGDOMS OF GHANA,MALI AND SONGHAY BY PATRICIA AND FREDRICK MCKISSACK QUOTE- IN medieval mali timbuktu was a cosmoplitian city an islamic stronghold where arabic was widely spoken,written,read,although it was never the official language.
another point about islam in this book- quote-as in old ghana,city dwellers were mainly muslisms,but in the small,remote villages,the mandinka wore islam like a covering that they easily threw off,revealing an intricate pattern of traditional customs and beliefs.
my comment-islam became quite africanized in africa.That is why there is a african islam and a arab islam.
EVEN IN MEDIEVAL nubia alot of folks did not become christians and there were many who were christian and pagan at the same time.WE KNOW THERE is a moderate form of african islam that is different than arab islam and there is african christianity that is different than christianity in other parts in the world.
Without ethiopia there would be no islam and other african cultures influence it's development too.
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
^^^ Indeed Kenndo. Please post some more!
I get the general vibe that even those who claim not to be racist and who claim that they don't stereotype "sub-saharan" Africans still do so, albeit subconciously.
So much can be discovered about Africa's past (as a WHOLE) if scientists would take us "west Africans" more seriously.
As my father often says, the legacy of the Atlantic slave trade has tatooed much misconceptions about us in the mind of the world.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
THANKS,i edited some things above instead of posting.read what i have to say about islam in general in africa and the christian faith. peace.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
From the post above Edited-
THERE WAS A VERY LARGE EMPIRE IN NORTHEAST NIGERIA TOO,IT WAS NOT AS LARGE AS MALI OR SONGHAY AND POLITICALLY NOT as powerful as mali and songhay but they had first rate troops as well and managed to stay free from songhay rule. THE FUNJ in the sudan had first rate troops and were able to conquer the last christian medieval nubian kingdom with some arab help and later the funj conqured the arabs around them.
Posted by TK (Member # 10103) on :
quote:Originally posted by herukhuti:
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: Hi,
With respect to Timbuktu, it is certain it was one of the main centers of learning of the Muslim world in the middle ages. But something even more important -I guess- is that unlike other places, the books of the Timbuktu's libraries still exist today. Who knows how many treasures are in there waiting for discovery. There is a project to recover those treasure in march already.
Now, I believe is important to consider African cultures outside the Muslim sphere of influence as well. I am fanatic of the study of less complex cultures, so I preffer to look down south in search of what, I believe, shows all the creativity of the Subsaharian peoples, particularly in arts. For me, the most interesting culture of Subsaharian Africa are located in Nigeria and Zimbabwe.Why? because they developed with less external influences and the arts of those regions are original and superb. Above all, I love IFE
KAWASHKAR
Thanks! I am a proud native of IFE myself
Herukhuti I would love to know more about your culture if you're willing to share it. I do think that their art work is some of best ever produced.
Thanks.
Posted by kawashkar (Member # 11828) on :
I do agree with that.
I believe that Blacks of the diaspora focus too much in Egypt, the Moors, Mali, Ethiopians and other "border" cultures. Yes, cultures that were in fact in contact with the Arabs, Europeans, West Asians, East Indians and many other civilization, and that, therefore, share many things with them.
However inside Subsaharan Africa there was also very interesting cultures. Some might not has been "technological advanced" societies, like their neighbours up north and est, but they have something invaluable: originality.
Please tell us more about those regions people usually forget. Tell us about Eredo, the bronces, and all of things you know and we don't
KAWASHKAR
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
If by black African you mean Gnawa (vs. white African meaning Tamazight or Egyptian as per these designations in the tarikhs themselves and still someone of a black physiognomy could be a white African) its simply a matter of knowing the main scholarly families of Timbuktu who are listed by tribal affiliation.
Scholarship in Timbuktu precipitates from the Zenata intelligentsia of Walata who previously fled the al~Murabitun conquest of that Ghana empire city known as Awdaghust.
There were six leading academician families in Timbuktu whose antecedents were as far flung as old Ghana, the western Sahara desert, Djenne, and the coastal Maghreb.
The rank and file scholarship included Fulbe, Hausa, Maghshara("Tuareg"), Malinke, Sanhaja, Songhai, and Soninke.
Can one resolve all that into the modern artificial and extremely limiting term "Black African?"
Look at the case of Ahmad Baba. His full name lists 22 generations and shows his Masufa Sanhaja ethnicity. It also reflects a tie in with Massina, a heavily Fulbe populated region between Djenne and Timbuktu. He even wrote of one of his Fula ancestresses being a war trophy given to one of his ancestors by Sonni Heli (Sunni Ali).
By tribe he was a white African (in the terminology of his own time and clime) but his phenotype was an inner African one making him a black African (in the current western world's meaning).
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... how do you determine whether a specific author is Black African amongst the scholars at Timbuktu?
Posted by herukhuti (Member # 11484) on :
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: I do agree with that.
I believe that Blacks of the diaspora focus too much in Egypt, the Moors, Mali, Ethiopians and other "border" cultures. Yes, cultures that were in fact in contact with the Arabs, Europeans, West Asians, East Indians and many other civilization, and that, therefore, share many things with them.
However inside Subsaharan Africa there was also very interesting cultures. Some might not has been "technological advanced" societies, like their neighbours up north and est, but they have something invaluable: originality.
Please tell us more about those regions people usually forget. Tell us about Eredo, the bronces, and all of things you know and we don't
KAWASHKAR
I agree. However, until we see more of this stuff on EgyptSearch, there is a forum The Nile Valley that has sections dedicated to all the different parts of Africa. It seems to be a new site and doesn't have nearly as much postings. Hopefully, it will grow and become even more useful than EgyptSearch.
Posted by RedCow (Member # 10893) on :
quote:Originally posted by kenndo: THERE is alot of great cultures in nigeria and i would like to later read more details on them as well.There are alot of a books you could get in the west on early nigerian cultures.
The bcc said they even found a pyramid or tomb that was larger than the one in egypt under ground.
The Eredo ramparts: Possible World Heritage status
Scientists in Nigeria have authenticated an ancient wall near Lagos, but are playing down the possibility that it marked the boundary of the kingdom of the legendary Queen of Sheba. A team of Nigerian and British archaeologists say the wall, which could be more than 1,000 years old, is genuine and not a modern construction.
Nigerian expert Levi Izuakor confirmed the wall was evidence of a great ancient city, but that little more than that could be said about its origins at this time.
The find had prompted suggestions that the centre of one of Africa's greatest kingdoms - and the final resting place of the Queen of Sheba - had been discovered.
But experts say the dating of the wall could eventually place its construction many hundreds of years after the lifetime of the Old Testament figure.
The wall lies hidden in the Nigerian rainforest at a site called Eredo, just a few hour's drive from the capital, Lagos.
A team from Bournemouth University, working with British archaeologist Dr Patrick Darling, recently completed a preliminary survey of the Eredo earthworks.
They consist of a wall and ditch measuring 70ft (20 metres) high in places and approximately 100 miles (150km) long.
'Earliest rainforest kingdom'
While not approaching the complexity of a project like the pyramids in Egypt, the builders would have shifted an estimated 3.5 million cubic metres of earth during construction of the ramparts.
This is one million cubic metres more than the amount of rock and earth used in the Great Pyramid at Giza.
Archaeologists believe it marks out what is believed to be the boundary of the Ijebu kingdom, ruled by the 'Awujale' spiritual leader.
Awujale: Local link to Sheba The British eventually broke the Ijebu trade monopoly, leading to the decline of the kingdom.
However, the traditional position of Awujale still exists in the modern day town of Ijebu-Ode.
Dr Darling says the Eredo site is a particularly exciting discovery because it provides the "earliest proof of a kingdom founded in the African rainforest".
Monument of remembrance
People living nearby the Eredo monuments link the area to Bilikisu Sungbo, another name for Sheba, says Dr Darling.
Local tradition speaks of a great queen building a vast monument of remembrance, and there is an annual pilgrimage to what is believed to be her grave.
But scholars trace the legend of the Queen of Sheba to an Old Testament story, describing how the queen married Solomon and their son began a dynasty of rulers in Ethiopia.
Estimates suggest the Old Testament queen would have reigned in the 10th century BC - some 2,000 years before the Eredo wall is believed to have been built.
Dr Darling says the beliefs of the locals cannot be discounted.
"I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but ... the local people believe it and that's what is important."
He believes that, whatever the case, Eredo could become Nigeria's first world heritage site, joining monuments like Stonehenge in the UK and the pyramids of Egypt.
Posted by RedCow (Member # 10893) on :
Kenndo,
These are the pyramids of Nsunde in Igboland OF Nigeria.
Posted by RedCow (Member # 10893) on :
These are one of thousands of stone circles in Senegal.
Senegal has at least 28,000 stone megaliths. So, when people mention Stonehedge in the UK, mention these. However, the megaliths are much younger than those in the UK and Western Europe.
They were made after the 1st A.D. mostly. These megaliths are also near many burial mounds.
It is believer the Serer people constructed the megaliths and the first burial mounds. But, many other Senegalese groups later copied the practice of mound building.
This is my special interest topic.
Posted by Supercar (Member # 6477) on :
^^Looks very much like the stone circles in the Gambia, i.e. these ones:
The stone circles, Wassu, Central River Division, The Gambia. - Courtesy of St. Mary's College of MD
Stone circles in Kerr Batch, the Gambia.
Elsewhere, for more on stone circles in Senegal and the Gambia, go here:
They are the same monuments. Senegal envelops Gambia. That's where we get the term Senegambia in it's original form.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
bump...
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Israel: Lamin,
I thought that Ahmed Baba was Black.......wasn't he? Concerning the Black scholars of Timbuktu, I believe that there were alot of Black scholars in Timbuktu. Perhaps the vast majority were Black. How could it not be that way, since one particular school in Timbuktu, for instance, had over 25,000 students from all over West Africa per year!? Don't believe me, check Henry Louis Gates's trip to Timbuktu...... I think, however, that things might have changed a little bit in Timbuktu after the Morrocan invasion in 1592. Salaam
Why is there a constant need to reference dark skinned or light skinned? "Black Africans with varying skin shades" is a more correct usage.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by KemsonReloaded:
quote:Originally posted by Israel: Lamin,
I thought that Ahmed Baba was Black.......wasn't he? Concerning the Black scholars of Timbuktu, I believe that there were alot of Black scholars in Timbuktu. Perhaps the vast majority were Black. How could it not be that way, since one particular school in Timbuktu, for instance, had over 25,000 students from all over West Africa per year!? Don't believe me, check Henry Louis Gates's trip to Timbuktu...... I think, however, that things might have changed a little bit in Timbuktu after the Morrocan invasion in 1592. Salaam
Why is there a constant need to reference dark skinned or light skinned? "Black Africans with varying skin shades" is a more correct usage.
I'd say given his commonly referred to name, "Ahmed Baba es-Sudane ("Baba the Black"), there's no question as to what ethnicity he belonged to. Felix Dubois, in "Timbuctoo the Mysterious" claimed to have met some of his descendants as well. The only reason why it would even have been up for debate is because he is the most highly respected scholar of all time from Timbuktu. His professor, Mohammed Bagayogo was also a black Wangari from Djenne. Most of the Malian scholars at Timbuktu were either Tuareg, Fulani, Songhai, or Soninke/Djennenke (I'd assume some Mandinka as well).. Arabs often found themselves unqualified to fit the prerequisites to teach Sudanic curriculum, where they had to study abroad first, before being universally accepted at Timbuktu.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by herukhuti:
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: Hi,
With respect to Timbuktu, it is certain it was one of the main centers of learning of the Muslim world in the middle ages. But something even more important -I guess- is that unlike other places, the books of the Timbuktu's libraries still exist today. Who knows how many treasures are in there waiting for discovery. There is a project to recover those treasure in march already.
Now, I believe is important to consider African cultures outside the Muslim sphere of influence as well. I am fanatic of the study of less complex cultures, so I preffer to look down south in search of what, I believe, shows all the creativity of the Subsaharian peoples, particularly in arts. For me, the most interesting culture of Subsaharian Africa are located in Nigeria and Zimbabwe.Why? because they developed with less external influences and the arts of those regions are original and superb. Above all, I love IFE
KAWASHKAR
Thanks! I am a proud native of IFE myself
Very similar to Benin art. Differences are of course superficial since it is based on the same artistic tradition in Nigeria of the Igbo and Yoruba, that can be traced back as far as Nok culture around 500 BC..
This is also from Ife:
When Europeans first uncovered sculptures like these, naively they asserted this to be proof of a race that inhabited west Africa in antiquity "that was far superior to the Negro".
Oops, double post! Wouldn't mind if this were deleted by a Mod.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Don't forget about the megaliths of Nabta Playa in Egypt and Adrir Madet in Niger, both are contemporary to each other and both pre-date the UK's Stonehenge.
Posted by Neith-Athena (Member # 10040) on :
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: I do agree with that.
I believe that Blacks of the diaspora focus too much in Egypt, the Moors, Mali, Ethiopians and other "border" cultures. Yes, cultures that were in fact in contact with the Arabs, Europeans, West Asians, East Indians and many other civilization, and that, therefore, share many things with them.
However inside Subsaharan Africa there was also very interesting cultures. Some might not has been "technological advanced" societies, like their neighbours up north and est, but they have something invaluable: originality.
Please tell us more about those regions people usually forget. Tell us about Eredo, the bronces, and all of things you know and we don't
KAWASHKAR
You make it sound like Africans need outside influences in order to develop "more advanced civilizations," and the "purer" cultures that have not received outside influence are less advanced because Blacks apparently need outside help in order to get things going. The term "sub-Saharan" is Eurocentric terminology. And if you are going to talk about influences, then much of Arab and Greek learning goes back to Egypt, and the Egyptians were Black, so who influences whom and what is or is not pure are obscure questions that have little bearing on the topic at hand. Oh, and apparently Europeans have never been able to do anything without outside influence of some sort, from either south or east. Posted by Neith-Athena (Member # 10040) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: If by black African you mean Gnawa (vs. white African meaning Tamazight or Egyptian as per these designations in the tarikhs themselves and still someone of a black physiognomy could be a white African) its simply a matter of knowing the main scholarly families of Timbuktu who are listed by tribal affiliation.
Scholarship in Timbuktu precipitates from the Zenata intelligentsia of Walata who previously fled the al~Murabitun conquest of that Ghana empire city known as Awdaghust.
There were six leading academician families in Timbuktu whose antecedents were as far flung as old Ghana, the western Sahara desert, Djenne, and the coastal Maghreb.
The rank and file scholarship included Fulbe, Hausa, Maghshara("Tuareg"), Malinke, Sanhaja, Songhai, and Soninke.
Can one resolve all that into the modern artificial and extremely limiting term "Black African?"
Look at the case of Ahmad Baba. His full name lists 22 generations and shows his Masufa Sanhaja ethnicity. It also reflects a tie in with Massina, a heavily Fulbe populated region between Djenne and Timbuktu. He even wrote of one of his Fula ancestresses being a war trophy given to one of his ancestors by Sonni Heli (Sunni Ali).
By tribe he was a white African (in the terminology of his own time and clime) but his phenotype was an inner African one making him a black African (in the current western world's meaning).
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: ... how do you determine whether a specific author is Black African amongst the scholars at Timbuktu?
As someone wrote earlier, when people speak of European scholars, they do not focus on their ethnicity. If the Berbers have Black paternal ancestry and the ancient Egyptians were Black and some modern ones are, then would these so-called "white Africans" not also be Black genetically if not phenotypically. I do not see what is the point of specifying whether someone is "Black African" or not; no one obsesses about a similar dichotomous construct in any other continent. It is indicative of still clinging to the idea, "of, if he is black and smart, he must have white in him, because 'pure' Negroes cannot be that smart," and similar racist nonsense.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neith-Athena: You make it sound like Africans need outside influences in order to develop "more advanced civilizations," and the "purer" cultures that have not received outside influence are less advanced because Blacks apparently need outside help in order to get things going. The term "sub-Saharan" is Eurocentric terminology. And if you are going to talk about influences, then much of Arab and Greek learning goes back to Egypt, and the Egyptians were Black, so who influences whom and what is or is not pure are obscure questions that have little bearing on the topic at hand. Oh, and apparently Europeans have never been able to do anything without outside influence of some sort, from either south or east.
LOL Neith-Athena, you waste your time. The troll you respond to has been banned (although that hasn't stopped him as he has been banned numerous times only to return under a new alias).
But you are correct. The problem with Kawashkar is that he is a mixo-centrist believing in the superiority of "mixed peoples", which he assumes the Egyptian civilization to be.
He claims that Egyptian civilization had more in common with their non-African neighbors than their adjacent African ones yet never provides any examples. He is one of the many "mixed up" nuts that come and go here.
Posted by Neith-Athena (Member # 10040) on :
I think he and his cohorts believe in the superiority of mixed Black people to "pure" Black people (read, that outdated and idiotic term "Negro"), but not in the superiority of mixed whites or mixed Asians to "pure" whites and Asians. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ No, I think the guy is pretty much all even with his mixo-centric prejudice. He believes that all great achievements in history not just in Africa but in Europe and Asia were all accomplished by "mixed" groups or groups who've had "influence" from other groups. He has made that clear before.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by kawashkar: I do agree with that.
I believe that Blacks of the diaspora focus too much in Egypt, the Moors, Mali, Ethiopians and other "border" cultures. Yes, cultures that were in fact in contact with the Arabs, Europeans, West Asians, East Indians and many other civilization, and that, therefore, share many things with them.
However inside Subsaharan Africa there was also very interesting cultures. Some might not has been "technological advanced" societies, like their neighbours up north and est, but they have something invaluable: originality.
Please tell us more about those regions people usually forget. Tell us about Eredo, the bronces, and all of things you know and we don't
KAWASHKAR
^Funny thing is no one asks the question:
Who influenced these mixed groups?
As if some of those "border cultures" (like Kemet) didn't influence those mixed "civilizations".
Posted by Evergreen (Member # 12192) on :
Timbuktu The Sahara's Fabled City of Gold By Marq De Villiers and Sheila Hirtle 2007
"Some of this seems to coordinate neatly with known climate changes in the southern sahara: the ending of the Atlantic wet phase starting about 2500BC until about 300BC; the transitional arid phase, from about 300BC to AD 300; a renewed wet phase from AD 300 to 1100: and another dry phase that lasted four centuries, from about AD 1100 to 1500. Thus, after about 300BC the climate went into serious declin, severly reducing the extent of the annual Niger flood, but allowing the colonization of the former wetlands. The wet phase starting in AD 300 was the signal for a fairly continuous expansion and intensification of settlement, since it yielded more arable land and conditions suitable for farming. It was in the subsequent dry phase, with its downturn in rainfall, that most of the settlements, including Mema and its hinterlands, were abandoned."
EVERGREEN WRITES:
Brian Fagan has produced a lot of research on the "Little Ice Age" and its impact on the rise of western hegemony. Have any of you come across documentation addressing the decline of Sahelian Civilization during the "Little Ice Age"?
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
Africa in 1441, by Robin Walker
The year 1441 proved to be ominous for Africa. That year, Antam Gonçalves, a young Portuguese mariner, led the first slave raid that would culminate in the period of mass enslavement – one of the ugliest chapters in world history. But what was Africa like just before that period? What was going on there?
In 1441 West Africa was dominated by the Mali Empire. Its imperial reach included the regions we today call Mali, Mauretania, Guinea and Senegambia. Although the empire had become decadent and undisciplined, losing its fourteenth century position as the richest state in the world – it was still impressive. Of its 400 cities and large towns, three were particularly important – Timbuktu, Djenné and Gao.
Timbuktu had spacious houses, built of clay bricks, wood and plaster. It had three famous temples whose minarets dominated the Timbuktu skyline. The great Malian king, Mansa Musa, built the Djinguerebere Mosque in the fourteenth century. It was an eerie nine-aisle building looking somewhat like a fortress. There was the Sankore University Mosque in which 25,000 students studied. The third key temple was the Oratory of Sidi Yayia.
Timbuktu had over 150 Koran schools in which 20,000 children were instructed. The total city population was 115,000 people – over five times larger than fourteenth century London (population 20,000). One early visitor to the city saw “numerous judges, PhD’s, and clerics, all receiving good salaries from the king.” The same eye-witness observed that “More profit is made from the book trade than any other line of business.” It is estimated that 700,000 manuscripts, many of them dating back to this period or even earlier, are still held by Timbuktu families and institutions.
Djenné was an eleven-gated city encircled by a rampart. Its buildings were attractive with villas of two storeys, usually with toilets and indoor drainage systems. The Grand Mosque was outstanding. It was a huge monument then over two hundred years old. It was a castle-like building with obeliskoid pillars built into its walls. Like Timbuktu, Djenne also possessed a university. At its medical college eye-cataract surgery was taught.
Gao was also a great city within the Mali Empire. One early geographer described it as a “populous, unwalled, commercial and industrial town, in which were to be found the produce of all arts and trades”. More recently, archaeologists from Cambridge University carried out important excavations in Gao. Some of their finds were once on display at the British Museum. Particularly intriguing was an exhibit entitled: “Fragments of alabaster window surrounds and a piece of pink window glass, Gao 10th - 14th century.”
Outside of the Mali Empire and near the West African coast was the civilisation of the Yoruba, ruling from the city of Ife. This civilisation has been praised by many scholars. One author wrote that: “It is impossible to describe here all the riches of the civilization of Ife”. Another was even more flattering: “Modern ethnologists” says a German scholar, “have found the art of the Yorubas so astonishingly high in quality that they did not [at first] ascribe it to a Negro race.” The same writer continues: “The Yoruba empire consisted of city states similar to those of ancient Greece . . . Some of these states had a hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty thousand inhabitants. Art objects of the highest quality were found in their ruins – glazed urns, tiles with pictures of animals and gods on them, bronze implements, gigantic granite figures. The Yorubas introduced the cultivation of yams, the preparation of cheese and the breeding of horses into West Africa. They had outstanding artists in metal, gold-casters, cotton-weavers, wood-carvers and potters. Their professions formed themselves into guilds with their own laws, their children were brought up in educational camps, their public affairs were directed by a courtly aristocracy and an exuberantly expanding bureaucracy.”
Further inland towards the Central Africa of 1441 lay the Empire of Kanem-Borno and also the Sudanese civilisation of Alwa. Sir Richmond Palmer, an Englishman, wrote learnedly on the Kanem-Borno Empire. After much research, he declared that: “[T]he degree of civilisation achieved by its early [rulers] would appear to compare favourably with that of European monarchs of that day.” Especially when it is understood that “the Christian West had remained ignorant, rude, and barbarous”.
Soba was the capital of the Sudanese civilisation of Alwa. Of this city, one medieval visitor described “fine buildings and large monasteries, churches rich with gold and gardens: there is also a great suburb where many Muslims live.” Its Throne Hall was a two storey clay brick building. Archaeologists working at this lost city have recovered fragments of ceramic grilles for windows. The window glass panes were also found close by.
The East Coast, from Somalia to Mozambique, has ruins of well over 50 towns and cities. They flourished from the ninth to the sixteenth centuries. One of these cities was Kilwa, a former seaport on the coast of Tanzania. In the fourteenth century, Kilwa was a very fine place. One medieval visitor described it as “one of the most beautiful and well constructed cities in the world”:
“Today” says a modern authority, “only a shabby village stands there. Yet beyond the village can still be found the walls and towers of ruined palaces and large houses and mosques . . . A great palace has been dug out of the bushes that covered it for hundreds of years. It is a strange and beautiful ruin on a cliff over the Indian Ocean. Many other ruins stand nearby.”
In 1961 British archaeologists excavated this “strange and beautiful ruin” - the royal palace of Kilwa. It was a marvellous building with over a hundred rooms, including a reception hall, galleries, courtyards, terraces and a swimming pool. The rooms were elaborately decorated and had vaulted roofs. The second floor of the building was imaginatively roofed with barrels, domes and conical designs, all made of concrete. At night, oil lanterns, numbering thousands, illuminated this wonderful monument.
Gedi, near the coast of Kenya, is another ghost town. Its ruins, dating from the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries, include the city walls, the palace, private houses, the Great Mosque, seven smaller mosques, and three pillar tombs. The walls are 9 feet high and had at least three gates. Approaching the mosque was a washing pool for the believers to perform ablutions. It had a purifier made of limestone for recycling water. The houses had a court, leading to the main room, and behind that was the private quarter. Also there, were smaller adjoining rooms, such as the bathroom, the toilet, bedroom, kitchen and storeroom. The royal palace had a layout similar to a large cluster of these houses, but with the addition of a reception hall. The palace contains evidence of piped water controlled by taps, bathrooms and indoor toilets.
In conclusion, then, mass enslavement, beginning in 1441 was not a crime committed against an Africa of untutored savages. The Africans = Savage theory was invented much much later - Source Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Don't forget about the megaliths of Nabta Playa in Egypt and Adrir Madet in Niger , both are contemporary to each other and both pre-date the UK's Stonehenge.
Unfortunately, I haven't read too much about the megaliths from Niger. Couldn't track down too much information about them on google either. Would appreciate it if anyone can provide some brief information about them, as far as approximate dates, who may have erected them, what was their function, etc..
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Can anyone give me some links and information about science in west Africa, for example is it true scholars in Timbuktu knew that the planets revolved around the sun before Copernicus. What exactly did the individual scholars contribute? How about those Dogan and the Sirus star system
Thanks for any information anyone can provide
Posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
I don't know about the timeline, Markellion. But, they did have astronomical knowlege.
Thanks I've always found ancient knowledge interesting.
does anyone have an explanation for Dogon knowledge other than aliens lol
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
does anyone have an explanation for Dogon knowledge other than aliens lol
The most sensible explanation that I've heard so far is that they merely figured it out on their own, like Europeans did later. A relevant thread on this particular topic can be found here.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
Kashf al-Ghummah fi Nafa al-Ummah (The Important Stars Among the Multitude of the Heavens)
This text was written to train scholars in the field of astronomy, a science that Islamic tradition traces back to Adam and to the Prophet Idris. The author discusses how to use the movements of the stars to calculate the beginning of the seasons and how to cast horoscopes, among many other aspects of astronomy. Displayed is a diagram demonstrating the rotation of the heavens.
Ahkam al-Shira al-Yamaniyah wa-ma Yazharu min Hawadith fi al-Alam inda Zuhuriha fi Kull Sanah (Knowledge of the Movement of the Stars and What it Portends in Every Year)
This collection of writings is based on the Greco-Roman legacy of astronomy with the addition of discoveries made by Muslim scholars. The text is presented in the form of a Platonic discourse. It includes an explanation of how to determine which star is ascendent and what that portends for the world.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Can anyone give me some links and information about science in west Africa, for example is it true scholars in Timbuktu knew that the planets revolved around the sun before Copernicus.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
does anyone have an explanation for Dogon knowledge other than aliens lol
The most sensible explanation that I've heard so far is that they merely figured it out on their own, like Europeans did later. A relevant thread on this particular topic can be found here.
The problem with this argument is that you have to prove that. It's not to say that they couldn't have done it...but I subscribe to the Egyptian argument. Though, there's no STRONG evidence they came from Egyptians either...though I've read they have similarities.
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:^I have the book and have read roughly half of it. His arguments are very convincing and he does indeed establish a solid connection between the Dogon's spiritual belief and that of ancient Egypt's. He goes into great detail about this. Scranton contends that the opening of Amma's egg is nothing more than symbolic of the Big Bang, vividly describing the point of creation.
He is literally a code-cracker and the way he interprets the various symbols is genius imo.
He even goes so far now as to write another book, in which he claims to be able to interpret Egyptian hieroglyphs in a new way by using Dogon symbols as a Rosetta stone. - Source
^I'm so looking forward to reading this book!
Indeed, the guy is very dedicated, knows his stuff, and isn't in the least biased, nor does he have an agenda as he genuinely finds them to be a fascinating people, which is why he's dedicated over the last 10 years of his life to studying them.
If it's that good, I'm gonna have to check it out myself.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Thanks for the info
I believe they discovered this themselves but how do you see an invisable star in the sky
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Thanks for the info
I believe they discovered this themselves but how do you see an invisable star in the sky
That's easy. You go inside a cave and look into the heavens. As your eyes adjust to the absence of light in the cave your eyes will be able to see lights in the sky which you may have not seen through observations in the natural light outside a closed area .
.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: The problem with this argument is that you have to prove that. It's not to say that they couldn't have done it...but I subscribe to the Egyptian argument. Though, there's no STRONG evidence they came from Egyptians either...though I've read they have similarities.
I see why you would say this, but honestly how does this pan out logically, pertaining to burden of proof? It would actually be your task to demonstrate why this indigenous system of knowledge should be attributed to an external source, whether it be Egyptians or 20th century Europeans , like Carl Sagan proposed. In other words, if you've found something on earth, why assume (with out valid evidence) that it came from outer space? Scranton I don't believe posits anything other than an indigenous origin behind Dogon knowledge, but he notes that other cultures of antiquity, namely ancient Egypt most likely possessed similar knowledge and demonstrates this by showing parallels in Dogon/Egyptian symbology and belief systems. Notwithstanding that it isn't improbable that the Dogon may be part of an early exodus out of the Nile valley, it is unsubstantiated and is in a way insulting to suggest that they need to be in order to explain what they've apparently found out on their own..
quote:If it's that good, I'm gonna have to check it out myself.
Yea, he's almost like one of those Graham Hancock types I suppose, but no where near as extreme, and sifting through the parts that you don't buy reveals an important connection between the Dogon spiritual beliefs with that of ancient Egypt, and also deeper meaning behind Dogon symbolism.
Posted by Sundiata (Member # 13096) on :
On his new book:
Research for my book Hidden Meanings: A Study of the Founding Symbols of Civilization, started a decade ago as an effort to compare common aspects of ancient myths. The many obvious similarities which exist among various mythologies of the world suggested that they may have all derived from a single original myth. My plan was to compare these similarities and differences, and try to derive from those comparisons the key elements of that original myth. My professional background is as a software consultant, and this kind of comparative approach is one that I have used for years – with great success - to understand differences between similar computer programs. I soon came to realize that Dogon mythology – actually the myths of a group of modern-day tribes from Mali - included a very rich set of symbols, themes, and elements found commonly across many mythologies, and therefore would make an excellent base against which to compare the others.
Like many students of mythology, my introduction to Dogon mythology came through Robert K.G. Temple’s book The Sirius Mystery, a controversial work from the 1970’s which brought the Dogon into the modern consciousness. Since the publication of his book, debate over the stars of Sirius has dominated discussions of the Dogon. Temple presented details of apparent Dogon knowledge relating to this star system - drawn primarily from the studies of French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen - as evidence of unexpected scientific knowledge, couched in the terms of myth. Counter arguments made by scientist and author Carl Sagan, and by later researchers such as Belgian anthropologist Walter Van Beek, called these findings into question, and left the issue of Dogon science in a knotted tangle. Because of this, I realized that any argument based on Dogon myth would have to take a different approach – one that gave a wide berth to the stars of Sirius.
Other key factors in the choice of Dogon mythology as a starting point for my study were the known similarities between Dogon and Egyptian culture, mythology, language and religion. These resemblances stand on their own merit, without connection to the Sirius debate, and suggest that Dogon mythology could actually represent a kind of modern remnant of a very ancient tradition. To my way of thinking, these similarities were an untapped source of possible information, quite worthy of exploration.
One other key point before we start: There is a fundamental difference between the way a scientist approaches a problem and the way a programmer approaches the same kind of problem. Physical science depends on exacting proofs to make its point, while a programmer often works by approximation, much like a traveler crossing the country. A traveler does not calculate to four decimal positions the most direct path to his destination. Rather, he takes a cab to the airport, flies to a hub airport like Chicago or Atlanta, transfers to another plane that takes him to another airport, then takes ground transportation to his hotel. Each step represents an inexact approximation of the journey, the cumulative effect of which takes him to a very precise point. My book works the same way. In the social sciences, there are few points that can actually be proved in a scientific sense; often, at best, they can be demonstrated. But the act of demonstration can actually be more concise, and just as powerful as a proof. For instance, if I wanted to prove that gravity exists, I might present a lengthy mathematical argument that few but an astrophysicist or a mathematician would understand. But I can easily demonstrate that gravity exists anytime I want, simply by dropping a pen. On one level, the power and - as John Anthony West refers to it - accessibility of Hidden Meanings lies in its ability to demonstrate its points.
Perhaps because of the on-going discussion about the stars of Sirius, few researchers thought to examine the many statements of Dogon mythology relating to the structure of matter. Ida Moffett Harrison – the editor of the English language edition of The Pale Fox (Griaule and Dieterlen’s finished study of the Dogon religion) mentioned to me recently about one book - the work of Dr. Charles S. Finch III called The Star of New Beginnings - which touches on relationships between Dogon myth and astrophysics. In order to find and understand these scientific statements, one first needs to come to an understanding of the structure of the Dogon myths. In Dogon mythology there is what I call a surface storyline and a deep storyline. The surface storyline consists of the fireside stories known to most tribe members. The deep storyline involves much more detail, and is only known to the priests and a privileged few – those who persist in asking questions about the myths. Marcel Griaule was initiated into the mythology after many years with the tribe, precisely because he persisted in asking questions. These storylines are organized as three plotlines-within-a-story. The first plotline – the surface storyline of the myth – deals with the history of how the skills of civilization were acquired by humanity. It establishes many of the key symbols of the Dogon myths – the clay pots and the spiraling coils which are so familiar from world mythology. The second plotline discusses details of the creation of the universe and of matter. The third plotline presents information about the creation of life – asexual and sexual reproduction. These three plotlines encompass the whole of themes appropriate to a deliberately composed myth of creation.
One helpful way to look at these myths is as a kind of encyclopedia article. The Dogon call their creation story aduno so tanie – “astonishing myth of the universe”. The types of information contained within the myth run parallel – both in scope and in sequence – to a modern-day encyclopedia article. The science reflected is not rocket science – it is middle school science. And so a software programmer like myself, with no special training in biology or astrophysics, can easily find and understand it.
What we encounter when we examine the myths presented in The Pale Fox are symbols, drawings, and descriptions which unfold – in the words of Germaine Dieterlen – “like the petals of a flower”. Once we realize that the descriptions are about science, it takes almost no effort at all to show that the drawings match diagrams from the same science. We also understand that the symbols of myth which relate to science superbly embody the concepts they are supposed to represent, and therefore must be have been deliberately chosen. For instance, the Dogon drawing of the sene seed – one of the mythological components of an atom - is the image of an electron orbit; Amma’s egg – the Dogon counterpart to the unformed universe - is almost exactly Stephen Hawking’s diagram of the event-horizon of a black hole.
Whatever knowledgeable authority composed the Dogon myths was exceedingly thoughtful of future researchers. Carefully chosen words were used to define each concept – words with double and sometimes triple meanings. When it came time to trace these concepts to Egyptian mythology (the original intention of the research), the Egyptian hieroglyphic language provided clear counterparts to the Dogon words – pronounced the same way, carrying the same multiple meanings, and written using glyphs which replicated the Dogon symbols – the very definition of an identity between concepts. So now, when we see the same word turn up with the same multiple meanings in another culture – like the concept of the po in the Maori culture (which for the Dogon and Egyptians represents the atom) or the concept of a Mother Goddess associated with spiders – we know from the earliest reference that we have tapped into the same tradition.
Perhaps the most astounding aspect of this research rests with the Egyptian hieroglyphs themselves, whose form remained unchanged for almost 3000 years of Egyptian culture. In many cases what I found when I traced the Dogon symbols and words to Egypt were hieroglyphic references to science which were more specific than the Dogon. For example, the Egyptian hieroglyphic words which describe how matter is created are written using glyphs which could be diagrams taken directly from string theory. Clearly, whoever composed these myths knew precisely what they were talking about.
One more comment about Hidden Meanings. For a study of this kind to succeed, it was necessary to focus on the physical and scientific aspects of Egyptian and Dogon culture. But I must emphasize that this is only part of the picture; other aspects are equally important, and are discussed eloquently by other writers, many of whom – like Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval - are credited as references in my book. As one excellent example, John Anthony West’s Serpent in the Sky explores the spiritual, mystical and philosophical aspects of many of the same symbols as Hidden Meanings, and consistently comes to remarkably similar conclusions about their meanings. If your goal is to acquire a three-dimensional understanding of ancient myths and their meanings, I urge you to continue to read other books on the subject.
Laird Scranton
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata: Africa in 1441, by Robin Walker
by the way, great posts by Sundiata, tremendous additions to the thread!
Posted by Daniel1576 (Member # 23010) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Actually, Timbuktu began its road to reknown when Djennerean merchants settled there and turned the overgrown Kel Tamasheq caravanserai into a bonified Sahelian Sudanese city.
Kel Tamasheq continued political control over the site but immigrants from Djenne with, by the time, at least 700 years experience in civics initiated its major exchange place economy, intellectual life, and religious propensities.
After that, each further ethnic influx to the city jointly contributed to what would become its reknowned legacy.
Arabs from the Mashreq and the Mizrahh discovered their assessment of Sudanese mental capacity to be no more than racial bias. The Arabs were no where near par with the learned Sudanese intellegentsia of Timbuktu. One Arab was so embarassed by his own stupidity in comparison to Timbuktu's Sudanese (i.e., BLACKS) expertise in jurisprudence that he packed up, took off to the Maghreb, studied up real hard on some jurisprudence to raise himself to a level of excellence that the Sudanese would quit mocking him.
On the otherhand, Timbuktu's Black scholars held seats in the universities throughtout the African Dar ul Islam.
Posted by Daniel1576 (Member # 23010) on :
Any source of this event? I know some source saying about arabs not being smart enough to work in Sankore, but the events that confirm this i really would like to know. It's the Second time i heard about this but i really need sources, If i use this in some conversation, i would like to give examples.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
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LOL. "pipe" jokes NEVER fail to hit the spot.
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