Originally posted by Djehuti:
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
*sigh*Apparently Clyde missed my response to Wally's claim in that thread here.
quote:
My claim!
Well, I (and not humble at all) can say without a shadow of a doubt that as an African-American, that some of my relatives once lived in the ancient Nile Valley; If I have, and of course I do, one Wolof or Yoruba or Fulani or Tuareg ancestor (I probably have all four) then my ancestry can be traced back to the ancient Nile Valley (Yes, to Kemet). I can also expect to find relatives in the kingdoms and provinces of Benin, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Mali, Sankore; also amongst the Dogon, the Kongo, the Zulu...
There is simply too much history and science to dispute this, my heritage. A fool might give it a try, but...
quote:West Africans came from many places. To say, "the majority of West Africans came from the Nile Valley" is erronous and false. Maybe if you have Dogon ancestors you can make that argument more strongly. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't tribes in West Africa like the Dogon that may share some ancestral history with the Nile Valley...but to make it seem like ALL of the tribes of this region ALL migrated from Egypt at some point in history is laughable at best. The DNA evidence doesn't support this, nor does the linguistic or cultural.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
*sigh*quote:I did not say all West Africans. I named specific groups. These are the groups that mainly arrived in America, up to 1800 when the U.S., stopped "legally" importing slaves from Africa.
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:West Africans came from many places. To say, "the majority of West Africans came from the Nile Valley" is erronous and false. Maybe if you have Dogon ancestors you can make that argument more strongly. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't tribes in West Africa like the Dogon that may share some ancestral history with the Nile Valley...but to make it seem like ALL of the tribes of this region ALL migrated from Egypt at some point in history is laughable at best. The DNA evidence doesn't support this, nor does the linguistic or cultural.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
Case in point, the Tuareg have history with many regions in Africa including East, North, and West Africa. It's much more complex than you make it seem.
quote:I read your post. In it you said, like most white Liberals, Afro-Americans should claim the West African kingdoms. That's fine also.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Apparently Clyde missed my response to Wally's claim in that thread here.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Obviously what I wrote went over your head (or rather you refuse to accept it and let it sink in)! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
Djehuti wrote:
This is where I disagree and think it a mistake you're making to assume you have direct ancestry from Egypt. Though I do not doubt the possiblity exists, I think it it highly unlikely for you as an African American to have direct ancestry from Egypt. The Wolof, Yoruba, and Fulani, are West Africans having predominantly to entirely West African lineages. The Tuareg who vary in maternal lineages do share paternal lineages in common with Egyptians but this is far cry from saying that they directly descend from them. So even though you may have ancestry from all 4 groups of African peoples there is nothing to imply that any are from Egypt! I think this is where you show too much faith in Cheik Anta Diop when you believe in his claims of an Egyptian/Nile Valley exodus to West Africa when there is no evidence of such an event. You must accept that whatever similarities in culture these peoples had with Egypt stems from a relation of a common African origin and not that one derived from the other! As an African American of West African descent, it is far more likely you have ancestry from those other African kingdoms you mentioned Benin, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Mali, Sankore, Kongo, etc. But to claim ancestry from Egypt takes away the recognition and credit that these West African civilization so desperately deserve! To do so would make you sound just as bad as those Eurocentrics who think just because they are white they have ancestry from Greece or from Rome! In most of their European history lessons they give little credit to the actual peoples they descend from-- the various Germanic and Celtic tribes; more emphasis is given on Rome or Greece. Such a view of history is itself false and inaccurate:
PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
Diop was absolutely correct in pointing out the Africanity of Egypt, but he was wrong for trying to find "Egyptian ancestors" in West Africans. If anything. Diop's problem is that he tried to write African history based on the Western model which is itself flawed! As Thought and Rasol have pointed out before the mistake of trying to imitate Western/Eurocentric models!
MY claim is the best:
China is one of the world's early 'cradles of civilization', but it is also an Eastern Asian civilization founded by an Eastern Asian people. Now, Filippino culture has many traits in common with Chinese culture, but this can only be due to common Eastern Asian origin. As a Filippino, I even share the same paternal lineage (O) as Chinese men, and historically the Philippines has even had trade with the Chinese since China isn't that far away. All of these facts make the chances of me having Chinese ancestry far more likely than you having Egyptian ancestry all the way from the other corner of the African continent. However, I do NOT claim any ancestry from the Chinese at all but am quite satisfied and proud of my own Filippino ancestry. Of course I can claim a relation to Chinese as Eastern Asians and virtually no one disagrees with this fact unlike Egypt's situation where too many people do not even know about Egyptians' African identity.
Take it for what it is. (And this goes out to Clyde Winters as well as Wally!)
quote:Even so, no one knows for certain how strong the relation between certain West African groups and Ancient Egypt is. The Yoruba say they came from the East and share many customs and traits with Egyptians. The Dogon tribe of Mali also share many customs with Ancient Egypt...but it is somewhat of a leap of faith to say they have DIRECT DESCENDENCE. There are many ways (especially over the course of hundreds of years) cultural customs can be adopted without having direct descendence. For the short term, look at the enormous impact Black Americans have had on Western music.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:I did not say all West Africans. I named specific groups. These are the groups that mainly arrived in America, up to 1800 when the U.S., stopped "legally" importing slaves from Africa.
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:West Africans came from many places. To say, "the majority of West Africans came from the Nile Valley" is erronous and false. Maybe if you have Dogon ancestors you can make that argument more strongly. I mean, I'm not saying there aren't tribes in West Africa like the Dogon that may share some ancestral history with the Nile Valley...but to make it seem like ALL of the tribes of this region ALL migrated from Egypt at some point in history is laughable at best. The DNA evidence doesn't support this, nor does the linguistic or cultural.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
Case in point, the Tuareg have history with many regions in Africa including East, North, and West Africa. It's much more complex than you make it seem.
West Africans from other nations became Americans, as the United States expanded into former Spanish and French colonies which were absorbed by the US. The original Afro-Americans, for the most part, came from the Senegal-Guinee Coast.
quote:LOL You accuse Doug of twisting your words to say *all* West Africans descend from the Nile Valley. Now I ask how *all* Europeans claim Roman or Greek heritage?! Irish people don't, Basque don't, Swedish don't, Baltic peoples like Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians don't. Alot more other peoples in Europe don't make such claims. The only people who do are the hardcore Eurocentrics who you so desperately emulate!
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But why should we stop there. Whereas , every European group attempts to claim the heritage of the Latins (Romans) or Greeks,..
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:LOL
the linguistic, archaeological and anthropological research makes it clear that Afro-Americans don't have to make up false geneologies to have ancestors that resided in the Nile Valley, as noted by the abundance of evidence, which points to the ancestors of the people of the Senegal-Guinee region originally inhabiting the Nile Valley, and migrating over time to the places where they now live along the upper Niger and Senegal rivers, on to the coast .
And what evidence is this may I ask! Archaeologically there is no evidence of mass migration from the Nile Valley. Linguistically, Senegalese like most West Africans speak Niger-Congo languages. There are some groups who speak Afrasian languages akin to Egyptian like the Hausa yet there is little evidence to tie them to the Nile Valley let alone Egypt, and I've personally met a couple of Hausa and neither claim ancestry from Egypt. Anthropologically, what?-- That both Egyptians and West Africans share tropically adapted body plans is a no-brainer. Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.quote:If this is not the case, why does every ancient history textbook written in the West begin with Greece, and people in the diverse Western nations maintain this is there heritage?
LOL You accuse Doug of twisting your words to say *all* West Africans descend from the Nile Valley. Now I ask how *all* Europeans claim Roman or Greek heritage?! Irish people don't, Basque don't, Swedish don't, Baltic peoples like Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians don't. Alot more other peoples in Europe don't make such claims. The only people who do are the hardcore Eurocentrics who you so desperately emulate!
quote:These are test done on contemporary Egyptians. As you know, most of the original Egyptians have long ago moved out of the Nile valley into other parts of Africa. The genetic evidence therefore tells us very little about the molecular make-up of the ancient Egyptians.
And of course genetics, verifies all of this with Senegalese and other West Africans being quite divergent in autosomal DNA. Senegalese in particular carry E2 lineages which is rare in Egyptians who carry E3b and E3a.
quote:Why stop there?
For the short term, look at the enormous impact Black Americans have had on Western music.
quote:Evidence please that most of the Egyptians moved out of Egypt?
Clyde Winters:
As you know, most of the original Egyptians have long ago moved out of the Nile valley into other parts of Africa. The genetic evidence therefore tells us very little about the molecular make-up of the ancient Egyptians.
quote:Because it is a tradition, one that is rooted in Eurocentric doctrine #5---PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
If this is not the case, why does every ancient history textbook written in the West begin with Greece,..
quote:Because of the very indoctrination of this belief and the traditionalism it is steeped in! Again I ask what Western nations claim Greek ancestry??
and people in the diverse Western nations maintain this is there heritage?
quote:LOL The above is lie to say the least. Most if even any Egyptians did not "move out of the Nile Valley". Where is the evidence of this mass exodus? We don't have any! In fact genetic evidence supports that-- Modern Egyptians carry predominantly African lineages with the non-African lineages being additions from immigrations.
These are test done on contemporary Egyptians. As you know, most of the original Egyptians have long ago moved out of the Nile valley into other parts of Africa. The genetic evidence therefore tells us very little about the molecular make-up of the ancient Egyptians.
quote:The ironic thing Yonis, is that Ausar (a modern Egyptian) has repeated this over a hundred times on this board yet people like Clyde refuse to listen. Instead they prefer the fantasy of Egyptians leaving in a mass exodus to escape the rule and persecution of non-Africans who were invading their land. These Egyptians somehow made their way across the Sahara not stopping until they reached West Africa, leaving behind no materials in this great journey-- only modern day descendants including African Americans! LOL
Originally posted by Yonis:
Evidence please that most of the Egyptians moved out of Egypt?
Modern Egyptians are directly descendents of the ancient Egyptians, you can argue that they've had alot of mixing due to the influx of conquerers for the last 2500 years, but to say that most of their ancestors migrated from Egypt makes you only look redicoulas, and an insult to modern Egyptians aswell as their ancestors.
quote:To be fair, the archeology required to properly look into this claim is nearly impossible looking at the state of many African nations. So where there MAY be evidence...it is not currently possible to do anything about it. Also, population migrations aren't an uncommon thing and if occured over generations may have not been recorded as a MASS MIGRATION as if everyone left at the same time. That's what I think Clyde is getting at...but it's still a faulty argument without the proper evidence and documentation.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:The ironic thing Yonis, is that Ausar (a modern Egyptian) has repeated this over a hundred times on this board yet people like Clyde refuse to listen. Instead they prefer the fantasy of Egyptians leaving in a mass exodus to escape the rule and persecution of non-Africans who were invading their land. These Egyptians somehow made their way across the Sahara not stopping until they reached West Africa, leaving behind no materials in this great journey-- only modern day descendants including African Americans! LOL
Originally posted by Yonis:
Evidence please that most of the Egyptians moved out of Egypt?
Modern Egyptians are directly descendents of the ancient Egyptians, you can argue that they've had alot of mixing due to the influx of conquerers for the last 2500 years, but to say that most of their ancestors migrated from Egypt makes you only look redicoulas, and an insult to modern Egyptians aswell as their ancestors.
quote:At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
Originally posted by Yonis:
Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
quote:Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
quote:The sad thing is that I've met people with this exact attitude towards history. I remember getting into an argument over the internet about which civilizations should be included in a computer game about history and the world's empires. My opponents were strongly against the inclusion of sub-Saharan and Native American civilizations because they "didn't contribute anything" to history or world culture. Attempts to convince them otherwise were fruitless. You just cannot rinse out that sort of mentality.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Because it is a tradition, one that is rooted in Eurocentric doctrine #5---PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
quote:The most populated country in the world and located in Afrika, this heavily populated African country would definately house the Ancestors who made up some of todays Afrikan Americans.
Egypt is the most populated country in the world.
those anologies are gibberish to me.quote:This is based on what study?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
quote:There was no exodus, prove it?
Historical text showed numerous exodus of populations from Kemet especially under Roman and Arab rule some went south, some went WEST, hence we see the Kemetic language affinities with Wolof,Hausa etc.
West Africa has been recently populated.
quote:We agree on this point ,Doug, I have never said all West Africans came from Egypt.
Originally posted by Doug M:
The connections are there and they are not as trivial as many may think. There are many verbal traditions all over Africa of Egyptian influence. I posted something a while back about some Africans saying they learned bead making from Egyptians. Of course, Europeans dont count such traditions. It is not just Egyptian influence either. It is Nile Valley influence that can be seen across Africa. This attests to the contacts between Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and other Nilotic civilizations and the rest of Africa. It does not make the Nile the ancestral homeland of all modern West Africans though.
quote:To accept such assertion means that one must first prove what technological innovations that Egyptians exiles might have pocessed at the departure. You must make clear from what departure period did such exodus occur and what technology did the exiles contribute to indigenous Western Africans. Does such technology still exist within Western Africa? Do oral myths within certain Western African cultures support such foreign impetus?
But we have to face the fact that Egyptians exiles would have possessed the knowledge to make great contributions to African societies with lesser technology. This may have helped them to assimilate smoothly in many African societies where they settled after migrating from Egypt to escape unjust rule by non-Egyptians
quote:It is more likely the latter-- that both West Africans and Egyptians share ancestry from the Sahara like E3a lineages.
Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:
I wouldn't rule out Ancient Egyptian ancestry for some West Africans or black Americans, but significant levels are unlikely. They probably do share Saharan ancestors with AEs though.
quote:^Indeed those people have serious issues if they ignore (deny) African and American civilizations and empires in a game about world empires. Obviously a freudian slip on their part-- that they consider only the West to be the world!
quote:The sad thing is that I've met people with this exact attitude towards history. I remember getting into an argument over the internet about which civilizations should be included in a computer game about history and the world's empires. My opponents were strongly against the inclusion of sub-Saharan and Native American civilizations because they "didn't contribute anything" to history or world culture. Attempts to convince them otherwise were fruitless. You just cannot rinse out that sort of mentality.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Because it is a tradition, one that is rooted in Eurocentric doctrine #5---PASSING OF THE TORCH DOCTRINE: Claims a chain of cultural transmission from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece to Rome to western Europe to the USA, leaving vast gaps where the history of the rest of the world should be. (The discussion never returns to Egypt or Iraq to consider what happened there after the fall of their ancient empires.) Most of the planet's cultures are discussed only in relation to the European conquest, if mentioned at all. As a result, few people have any idea of the history of Sumatra, Honduras, Niger, Ecuador, Mozambique, Ohio, Hokkaido, Samoa, or even European countries such as Lithuania or Bosnia.
quote:One should always be proud of his or her own heritage and not always look to the heritages of others. Again I myself as a person of Eastern Asian descent am quite satisfied with my Filipino heritage and look to people like King Palu Palu than to try to cling onto great peoples outside my ethnicity like Chinese Emperor Chi Huang-di just because they are Asian! Some people just aren't satisfied with their own ethic heritage. In fact this mentality you see among some African Americans reflects Eurocentrics! Where you have people of Northwest European descent not only try to claim ancestors from Rome and Greece but even 'kacazoid' ancestors in Egypt, Mesopotamia, India etc!
Originally posted by Sundiata:
I love Egypt but I myself am genuinely proud of what Kingdoms/empires such as Ghana, Mali, Songhay, and Kanem-Bornu were able to accomplish, despite the lack of praise they receive in the mainstream, and couldn't care less about being a direct descendant of Thutmosis III when I can look to someone like Sundiata Keita or Sunni Ali Ber as a more direct relative..
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
quote:The Batrawi study compounded by Crichtons re-evalutation of Brace's study. Sorry I forgot to cite my sources. Of course Egyptians possessed close affinities to West Africans but just not as close to their immediate neighbors.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:This is based on what study?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
quote:ROTFL
Originally posted by Yonis:
There was no exodus, prove it?
This is what happened
quote:I think this whole issue needs to be addressed more thoroughly.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^Finally a true Egyptian speaks out! Get him, Ausar, I mean question him. LOL
The very idea of mass population displacement is ludicrous considering all the evidence we have.
quote:Exactamundo!
Originally posted by ausar:
BTW, Dr. Hawass reminds me of the Puerto drummer Tito Puente save for his busht eyebrows.
quote:Great response! {in the link}
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Apparently Clyde missed my response to Wally's claim in that thread THERE IN THIS beautiful-piece mug MOE.
quote:You got to be kidding me. Black Americans do not *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. And don't dare tell me that some of the Nubians and it's many stocks went into the Congo and the Congolese were part of the Atlantic slave trade, and that's how black Americans share ancient Egyptian ancestry.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
Originally posted by Yonis:
Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
quote:Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
quote:Ausar makes an excellent point. But just to let you know, I am one of those people who are in an unbiased position in the first place. I am not against the notion of African Americans have ancestry from ancient Egypt since they are of African descent and the Egyptians are African, however I am not all for it either unless there are any actual facts to back up such claims. Many racist whites and Eurocentrics would probably fall ill at the idea of African Americans having ancestry from one of the first civilization builders as their objects of inferiority. On the other hand, African Americans would doing nothing but hurting themselves to make illegitimate historical or hereditary claims.
Originally posted by ausar:
For me it's not a matter of personal pride or shame,but evidence presented. A more multi-displinary reserch that is agenda free from either sides of the argument. An African American or anybody can claim their ancestors are ancient Egyptians but the validity of the argument is based on the evidence and not the claim itself. All the following is subject to personal interpretation and bias but with a more multidisplinary approach we can weed out weak and strong cases. I definately agree with Dr. Winters that such a consideration deserves much more attention and both side of the argument need to be heard.
BTW, Dr. Hawass reminds me of the Puerto drummer Tito Puente save for his busht eyebrows.
quote:He didn't say (definitively) that African-Americans share Ancient Egyptian ancestry(or that none do), he's saying that both Ancient Egyptians and ancestors of African-Americans shared African ancestry, which is confirmed as fact..
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:You got to be kidding me. Black Americans do not *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. And don't dare tell me that some of the Nubians and it's many stocks went into the Congo and the Congolese were part of the Atlantic slave trade, and that's how black Americans share ancient Egyptian ancestry.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
Originally posted by Yonis:
Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
quote:Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
quote:The Egyptian writing system was not used in West Africa because these people were using a syllabic writing system that had been popular in Africa for thousands of years. This form of writing was also used in ancient Egypt. As typified by the inscription from Gebel Sheikh Suleiman
Originally posted by ausar:
Dr. Winters, you have provided the historical evidence but what of the textual and archaeological data of a exodous from the Nile Valley into Western Africa. You mention that during the Assyrian era in Egypt's history that Western Asians began to displace and rule indigenous Egyptians,and I wonder what first hand or second hand source are you basing such claim? Also, what type of exiles from Egypt migrated? Was it the populace or elite that were only a small percentage. If the elites then why is there no equivalent script in Western Africa that looks like Demotic? Also any large demic migration would bring more than just cultural artifacts and other items such as animal and food domesticates as well as pollen trails.
quote:No, he didn't say that. He said black Americans, as a people of African ancestry, do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. Just because Ancient Egyptians were "African" and black Americans are descendants of "Africans" does not mean they have a *shared* ancestry with Egyptians. Do you think Ethiopians have a *shared* ancestry with Nigerian just because they are both black and African?
Originally posted by Sundiata:
The facts remain that West Africa/West Africans has/have been civilized much longer than Western Europe has and one of the greatest empires(Mali) in Western Africa actually incorporated a land mass larger than Western Europe its self and sustained it for over 400 years, only to be succeeded by an even larger Empire(Songhay). They'd in fact fall ill simply knowing that if they'd simply ponder on the significance of it and if it weren't so often pushed under the rug..
quote:He didn't say (definitively) that African-Americans share Ancient Egyptian ancestry(or that none do), he's saying that both Ancient Egyptians and ancestors of African-Americans shared African ancestry, which is confirmed as fact..
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:You got to be kidding me. Black Americans do not *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians. And don't dare tell me that some of the Nubians and it's many stocks went into the Congo and the Congolese were part of the Atlantic slave trade, and that's how black Americans share ancient Egyptian ancestry.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:At least the Jewish exodus sounds alot more plausible than this one! We have evidence of Asiatics living in communities in the Eastern Delta, and most slaves in Egypt were Asiatic. While we have no evidence at all of Egyptian mass migration to West Africa. LOL
Originally posted by Yonis:
Yeah, thats a wild theory.
Sounds almost as the jewish exodus.
quote:Actually Black Americans as people of African ancestry do *share* ancestry with ancient Egyptians, but this is not the same as saying Black Americans directly descend from them.
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
Black Americans do not share no ancestry with Ancient Egyptians. When ancient Egypt was a great civilization the rest of Africa wasn't empty. There were already stocks and groups of Africans living throughout the continent including West Africa. Black Americans have nothing to do with ancient Egypt; that's just wishful thinking.
I am still suspectful of you Betty.
Everyone read my post about what I think of Wally's claim as well as the problem of trying to conform Africa from a Eurocentric standpoint.
quote:We've gone through the Brace study [2005], which only had a single west African sample from Benin. He has already acknowledged the glaring flaws in his earlier studies. As for Batrawi, from what I've read, I don't recall him talking about west African being distinct from the Nile Valley, so citation along those lines would be welcomed. Please understand that I'm asking you these specifics based on your original mention of "quite distant from West Africans", when it is clear that West Africa has a host of people with diverse phenotypes, discussed ad nauseam here. In fact, Keita and others before him, have shown that AE crania fit both the so-called 'broad' and 'elongated' archetypes. In this regard, it would be interesting to note why AE crania would be "quite distant from that of West Africans".
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:The Batrawi study compounded by Crichtons re-evalutation of Brace's study. Sorry I forgot to cite my sources. Of course Egyptians possessed close affinities to West Africans but just not as close to their immediate neighbors.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:This is based on what study?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
quote:What do you make of the idea that M1 and U6 for example, are found in both the Lower Egypt and sub-Saharan west Africa?
Originally posted by yazid904:
Again, what is our hypothesis? and what is the null hypothesis? Sample size location will affect the outcome because places like Alexandria (Egypt)(obviously) will not be a close sample to the population known as West Africans? To back track, Alexandria can display MtDNA of those who came before, hence showing maternal West African heritage (highly UNLIKELY!) per the specific tribal group while saying Ethiopia, Kenya and Yemen would be likely areas of genetic preponderance!
quote:There has been human presence in West Africa longer than that. Now, if you are referring to groups ancestral to many contemporary West Africans, perhaps the above dates would be reasonable approximations of settlements from other parts of Africa, like from other parts of the Saharan expanse sans the west African portion, and/or movements from sub-Saharan east Africa via central Africa.
Originally posted by Doug M:
Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa.
quote:I would not classify the earliest West Africans (c. 11,000- 6000 ybp)with speakers of the Niger-Congo languages. Many of these people only entered West Africa over the past 4000 years. According to McIntosh and McIntosh, for example, the Niger Valley was not settled until 500 BC.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:There has been human presence in West Africa longer than that. Now, if you are referring to groups ancestral to many contemporary West Africans, perhaps the above dates would be reasonable approximations of settlements from other parts of Africa, like from other parts of the Saharan expanse sans the southern limits of the west African portion, or sub-Saharan east Africa via central Africa.
Originally posted by Doug M:
Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa.
quote:I presume you are basing this on "Niger-congo" origins?...certainly not based on genetics or archeology.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:I would not classify the earliest West Africans (c. 11,000- 6000 ybp)with speakers of the Niger-Congo languages. Many of these people only entered West Africa over the past 4000 years. According to McIntosh and McIntosh, for example, the Niger Valley was not settled until 500 BC.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:There has been human presence in West Africa longer than that. Now, if you are referring to groups ancestral to many contemporary West Africans, perhaps the above dates would be reasonable approximations of settlements from other parts of Africa, like from other parts of the Saharan expanse sans the southern limits of the west African portion, or sub-Saharan east Africa via central Africa. [/qb]
Originally posted by Doug M:
Most research I have seen puts human settlement in West AFrica at about 11,000-13,000 years ago. Outside of East Africa, the earliest sites of human settlement are in South Africa.
Moeover, the traditions of these people mention the fact that when many of these groups entered many parts of "West Africa" the region west of Chad, was already occupied by "small sized Africans".
quote:This is based on archaeology. I will use the Mande speaking people as an example.
I presume you are basing this on "Niger-congo" origins?...certainly not based on genetics or archeology.
quote:How come you never produce any source? Do you expect people to just accept your theories as they are because they like your nick? Without validity or linkage to a more reliable source, your words becomes useless at the end.
Originally posted by Hotep2u:
Greetings:
Egyptian Pharoahs were found to have Benin Haplotype (HBS) sickle cell trait, the Benin Haplotype sickle cell trait shows up with a frequency of 70% amongst Afrikan Americans.
E3a in lower Kemet, also found amongst Afrikan Americans,mtDNA L3g is found amongst Afrikan Amercans also.
Hotep
quote:Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Mystery Solver
quote:This is based on archaeology. I will use the Mande speaking people as an example.
I presume you are basing this on "Niger-congo" origins?...certainly not based on genetics or archeology.
One of the major groups of languages spoken in Africa is the Mande group. The Mande languages are divided into two groups, the Northern and South-Eastern Mande.
The Northern Mande played an important role in world history. The Northern Mande languages include the (l) Soninke dialect cluster: Azer, Bozo, Soninke (Sarakole); and (2) the Manding cluster: Malinke, Bambara, Dyula and Vai. Elements of the Northern Mande founded many civilization,including the Minoan civilization of Crete , the Olmec civilization of Meso-America ( Wuthenau 1980; Winters 1979, 1981c,1986), and the Xia civilization of China (Winters 1980,1983c,1985d,1988, 1990).
The Proto-Manding best known for its totem of a dragon or lizard (Winters 1983, 1983c,1985d). In ancient America and China this dragon or lizard totem was retained as the emblem of their civilizations.
The Proto-Manding often referred to themselves as Si. In the Manding languages the term Si, means "black, race, descendant and family".
Today blacks are usually referred to as li in Chinese. In the ancient Chinese language the blacks of the Xia and Shang civilizations were called Xi (Shi) 'Blacks' . The Yucatec Maya, called these ancient Manding who founded the Olmec civilization and who taught them writing Xiu (Shi-u) 'the Blacks'.
The traditional view of the separation of the Proto-Mande (PM) would place the original their homeland in the woodland savanna zone of West Africa in the area of the Niger Basin 4000
years ago. Although this is a popular and attractive theory, the archaeological data suggest that the original homeland of the Mande was more than likely the Saharan highland areas, and the southern Sahara 8000 years ago.
The PM were probably part of the Saharan Sudanese neolithic , users of the dotted wavy line ceramics.(Winters 1986c,1986b) By the advent of the neolithic the PM speakers had domesticated cattle and goats. They also cultivated millet.
Between 3500 and 3200 B.C., the PM speakers left their original Libyan and Nubian homeland to settle the Hoggar and Fezzan(Winters 1985,1986c). They apparently migrated around the same time and remained more or less a single linguistic community.
By 2500 B.C., the Proto-Northern Mande (PNM) began to separate into two major groups. The Proto-Soninke were spread from the Northern part of the Hoggar massif down into Mauritania. The Soninke speaking population of farmers and cattle herders were in Dar Tichitt by 3850 B.C. By 1500 B.C., there was wide spread settlement of the Proto-Soninke speaking Mande in Tichitt.
The Proto-Manding speaking population lived south of the Soninke in the Hoggar and in the Fezzan. These people were mainly farmers and fishermen. They had cattle but this was secondary to their farming and fishing. The Manding were a riverine people who built their habitation sites near rivers and streams. The towns communicated with one another by boats. Another group of Manding speakers, the Proto-Vai, went westward with the Proto-Soninke and lived in Dar Tichitt.
According to Winters (1986c) the Proto-Manding speaking people lived south of the Soninke in the Hoggar and Fezzan. The Malinke-Bambara speaking Manding were mainly farmers and fishermen. They had cattle but this was secondary to their farming and fishing. The Manding were a riverine people who built their habitation sites near rivers and streams. The towns communicated with one another by boats. Another group of Manding speakers, the Proto-Vai , went westward with the Proto-Soninke and occupied the Dar Tichitt area.
In Dar Tichitt between 1500 to 300 B.C., cattle and goats appear throughout the region. By 1000 B.C., walls were built around the towns for protection from nomadic raiding parties. By 800 B.C. these towns stretched over a hundred miles of now uninhabited desert. (Munson 1976)
The distribution of the towns in Dar Tichitt during this period suggests the formation of a state or empire. Given the fact that the walls of the towns disappeared later, indicates that the various Soninke communities probably had a civilian army which was called up in times of emergency and also a standing army to deter the nomads who threaten settled Mande speaking communities.
In Dar Tichitt by 600 to 300 B.C., these Mande speakers lived in smaller towns situated in heavily fortified natural rock formations, which suggest that the inhabitants of the towns during this period were building their homes in areas which were easy to defend and offered natural fortifications. By 300 B.C., these towns were no longer inhabited.
Some researchers believe that the inhabitants of the Dar Tichitt towns were the troglodyte Ethiopians who lived in holes and were hunted by the Garamante, according to Herodotus, and sold into slavery. The rock engravings of Mauritania were presumably made to show the lifestyle of the people who lived there. Munson (1976), Winters (1986), Holl (1985,1985b,1989) believe that Tichitt, was the forerunner of the Soninke Empire of Ghana, given the fact that the people in this area continue to speak a Soninke language.
The Garamante lived in the Fezzan in the fertile valley between the Ubari Erg and the Erg of Murzuq in oases spread from
al-Abiod to Tin Abunda. The last capital of the Garamantes was situated at Jerma.
The Garamantes may have been of Manding origin. The name Garamante seems to indicate that this group of Libyans, were members of the Mande community. This name in Manding means "Mande/Mantes of the arid lands". This analogy is supported by the name of the Mande group which translates into ma 'mother'and nde 'child', i.e., "mother's child"; Bambara or Banbara ,which means "separated from the mother", i.e., they follow descent from the father's side.
According to Robert Graves (1980, p.33), the Garamantes left the Fezzan and settled the south bank of the Upper Niger after they were subdued by the Lemta Berbers in the 2nd century A.D.
The presence of Mande communities in Mauritania and the Fezzan would explain the chariot routes that transverse the desert and end at the Niger bend. These routes suggest communication and trade between the Mande groups in northwest Africa, the Fezzan and the Niger bend. But it would appear that by the mid-first millennium A.D., all the Manding had left the Fezzan except for the Garamante. They have left hundreds of inscriptions engraved on rocks from the Fezzan to the Niger Bend.
By 2000 B.C., the Proto-Manding probably began to migrate from the Hoggar into the Tilemsi Valley, as the Sahara began to decline due to aridity. (Winters 1986c,pp.91-92) This was over 800 years after groups of Manding along with Dravidian speaking migrants moved out of the Hoggar and Fezzan into northern Libya and thence Crete and Asia Minor. (Winters 1983b,1989) A segment of this group also moved eastward and made their way to Iran after 3000 B.C., and from there into the Indus Valley.(Winters 1989,1990)
In the Tilemsi Valley the major center of Manding occupation was the Karkarichinkat site. The settlers of the Karkarchinkat site were herder-fisher collectors of a Saharan material culture.(McIntosh & McIntosh 1981, p.608)
At Karkarchinkat north, herding and plant domestication were heavily practiced. The Bozo may have migrated along with the Manding into the Tilemsi Valley and settled first in the fishing communities of south Karkarchinkat.
Sites in the Sahara, especially the Western Fezzan, have yielded plentiful bones of domesticated cattle and small stock, along with pottery shards and farming tools. These people had dug many wells. The pottery is of the Aqualithic type, and is found mainly in the Tilemsi massif and the Fezzan.
As more and more of the Sahel became arid, the Mande-speaking people began to move into the Niger Bend area after 500
B.C. (McIntosh & McIntosh 1979, 1981; Winters 1986c) Before 500 B.C., the Niger Basin was probably inaccessible by boat and/or uninhabited because of the presence of diseases detrimental to cattle and humans until the last part of the 1st millennium B.C.( McIntosh & McIntosh 1983, pp.39-42)
The early artifacts from the Niger area support a Saharan origin for the Manding of the Niger Delta. The bowl designs from the Niger Delta dating to 250 B.C., are analogous to pottery styles from the southern Sahara dating to between 2000-500 B.C.(McIntosh & McIntosh 1979,p.246)
The early settlers of the Niger were Malinke-Bambara and Bozo speaking people. They lived atop mounds. These riverine communities were partly vegetarian. The people also ate some meat and fish. Between Segou and Timbuktu, the people grew rice.
The pre-Islamic Mande established numerous communities. They specialized as farmers, fishermen and especially cattle herders until the decline in the environment of the Sahel. They grew rice, millet, sorghum, cotton, groundnuts, cow peas, okra, sesame and shea nuts. Other Mande people were fishermen as evidence by the bone-harpoons and terracotta net-weights from Donna Fatoma Ke-Bozo and Segoubougou.
The Mande also built megaliths carved in the shape of a phalli and human heads. The major sites with megaliths are Tondidaro and Kouga. They made ornaments out of copper. The dead were buried in jar-coffins. Often entire families were buried in the same mound complex.
In conclusion, the hypothesis that the Proto-Mande homeland was in the Niger Basin can be challenged on the basis of the archaeological data discussed above. This data proves that the Sahara was the homeland of the Manding, not the Niger Basin.
.
quote:He always quotes himself since he can't find other scholars that supports his theory, I would do the same if i was him.
King_scorpion:
Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
quote:You have not been keeping up with the thread. I am specifically talking about West Africans who live in the Senegal (Mauretania)-Guinee-Niger Bend region.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
First of all Mande is just one of the many descendants of the proto-Niger-Congo ancestral language, which some linguists like Chris Ehret deem to be approx. 15 ky old. The Bantu branch, for instance, the speakers of it, have been determined to have expanded from where Cameroon [perhaps ultimately originating in southern Nigerian region] now lies to "equatorial forests of the Congo about 5,000 years ago [see Felix Marti et al. 2005]."
These people took with them, the iron technology already developed in West Africa. Given this, what makes you think that divergances within Niger-Congo superfamily hadn't occurred by 5 ky ago?
As I have noted in another thread, "Yam" cultivation beginnings in west Africa, have been traced back to ca. 11 ky ago if not at least. This is still amongst important cultivation items in the Niger river delta region. Similar tools used for cultivation purposes have been located in parts of Central Africa dating to about the same period, earlier and later. And then you have pottery, which have been compared with Saharan types, and are deemed to have some affinities.
Genetics dates divergence of E3a carriers from the PN2 lineage at ~ 18.8 ky ago [see Semino et al., 2004], which is reasonable, given the proposed age for the proto-Niger-Congo language's age at ca. 15ky old.
quote:You're full of it. Kivisild et al, always quote their articles in every paper they write. You quote your papers so you can leave a publication record. If you ever had any papers published you would know this.
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:He always quotes himself since he can't find other scholars that supports his theory, I would do the same if i was him.
King_scorpion:
Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
More than twenty years in the academic field is not a joke.
quote:Here is an example:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:You're full of it. Kivisild et al, always quote their articles in every paper they write. You quote your papers so you can leave a publication record. If you ever had any papers published you would know this.
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:He always quotes himself since he can't find other scholars that supports his theory, I would do the same if i was him.
King_scorpion:
Again with the Mande Supermen Winters? I like how you quote yourself though...
More than twenty years in the academic field is not a joke.
.
quote:.
The Role of Selection in the Evolution of Human Mitochondrial Genomes
Toomas Kivisild*,2,1, Peidong Shen ,2, Dennis P. Wall ,3, Bao Do , Raphael Sung , Karen Davis , Giuseppe Passarino , Peter A. Underhill*, Curt Scharfe , Antonio Torroni**, Rosaria Scozzari , David Modiano , Alfredo Coppa , Peter de Knijff***, Marcus Feldman , Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza* and Peter J. Oefner ,2,4
*
MITOCHONDRIAL DNA (mtDNA) encodes for 13 proteins, two ribosomal genes, and 22 tRNAs that are essential in the energy production of the human cell. Variation in the sequence of mtDNA has provided significant insights into the maternal history of anatomically modern humans (GILES et al. 1980; DENARO et al. 1981), complementing the paternal legacy of the Y chromosome (UNDERHILL et al. 2000). Studies based on restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) of the coding and direct sequencing of the noncoding control region have formed the basis of a hierarchical classification of distinct geographic and ethnic affinities (TORRONI et al. 1993, 1996; CHEN et al. 1995; WATSON et al. 1997; MACAULAY et al. 1999; FORSTER et al. 2001). Studies addressing sequence variation in the mtDNA coding region have suggested that natural selection has significantly shaped the course of human mtDNA evolution (CANN et al. 1984; NACHMAN et al. 1996; INGMAN and GYLLENSTEN 2001; MISHMAR et al. 2003; MOILANEN et al. 2003; MOILANEN and MAJAMAA 2003; ELSON et al. 2004; RUIZ-PESINI et al. 2004).
An unrooted tree from a median-joining network (BANDELT et al. 1999) was drawn and labeled following existing mtDNA haplogroup nomenclature (TORRONI et al. 1996, 2001; MACAULAY et al. 1999; KIVISILD et al. 2002, 2004; SALAS et al. 2002; YAO et al. 2002; KONG et al. 2003, 2004; SHEN et al. 2005) . The tree was rooted using nuclear inserts of mtDNA retrieved from human genomic sequence and the consensus sequence of the three chimpanzee mitochondrial genomes. The accession numbers, mtDNA positional range, and identity (ID) measures of the genomic contigs containing the inserts that were used for rooting are as follows: NT_006713.14 (bp 341–2697; ID 94%); NT_009237.17 (bp 521–2976; ID 94%); NT_006316.15 (bp 2899–3050; ID 94%); NT_077913.3 (bp 3914–9756; ID 98%); and NT_034772.5 (bp 10,269–15,487; ID 94%). The assembled sequence of the inserts is available at http://insertion.stanford.edu/mtDNA.html. The GenBank accession numbers of the two Pan troglodytes and one Pan paniscus sequences that were used are D38113, X93335, and D38116, respectively. Haplogroup divergence estimates and their error ranges were calculated as averages of the distances from the tips to the most recent common ancestor of the haplogroup (FORSTER et al. 1996; SAILLARD et al. 2000). Two separate measures of nonsynonymous (N) to synonymous (S) substitution ratios were used: first, the MN/MS ratio estimates the number of mutational changes inferred from the phylogenetic tree (Figure 1), and second, the dN/(dS + constant) refers as in MISHMAR et al. (2003) to the ratio of the average pairwise distances of N and S changes in the given sample. Statistical significance was determined from binomial or 2 probabilities. Disease-implicated substitutions were excluded from these analyses. For interspecies comparisons, mammalian mtDNA sequences were retrieved from the Mitochondriome website (http://bighost.area.ba.cnr.it/mitochondriome/Mt_chordata.htm).
.
You have been called out before, Clyde for using outdated sources. Even Kivilsid changed his findings once more accurate analysis was presented. Indians do NOT have M1 period.quote:I understand that Mystery. I never said Egyptians were very distant from West Africans but rather they are of course closer to neighboring northeast Africans. Of course both broad-type and narrow-type Africans are common in all regions of Africa, but we have to keep in mind the clinal pattern involved.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
We've gone through the Brace study [2005], which only had a single west African sample from Benin. He has already acknowledged the glaring flaws in his earlier studies. As for Batrawi, from what I've read, I don't recall him talking about west African being distinct from the Nile Valley, so citation along those lines would be welcomed. Please understand that I'm asking you these specifics based on your original mention of "quite distant from West Africans", when it is clear that West Africa has a host of people with diverse phenotypes, discussed ad nauseam here. In fact, Keita and others before him, have shown that AE crania fit both the so-called 'broad' and 'elongated' archetypes. In this regard, it would be interesting to note why AE crania would be "quite distant from that of West Africans".
quote:This is incoherent. What do you mean “keeping up with the thread”, when it is “you” who was answering “my” comment? What is there for me to keep up with…other than to say that your reply is not only inaccurate but fails to address the comment it was purportedly addressing? If anything, it is your reply to my comment, which indicates that you haven’t kept up with what was said in my comment.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:You have not been keeping up with the thread. I am specifically talking about West Africans who live in the Senegal (Mauretania)-Guinee-Niger Bend region.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
First of all Mande is just one of the many descendants of the proto-Niger-Congo ancestral language, which some linguists like Chris Ehret deem to be approx. 15 ky old. The Bantu branch, for instance, the speakers of it, have been determined to have expanded from where Cameroon [perhaps ultimately originating in southern Nigerian region] now lies to "equatorial forests of the Congo about 5,000 years ago [see Felix Marti et al. 2005]."
These people took with them, the iron technology already developed in West Africa. Given this, what makes you think that divergances within Niger-Congo superfamily hadn't occurred by 5 ky ago?
As I have noted in another thread, "Yam" cultivation beginnings in west Africa, have been traced back to ca. 11 ky ago if not at least. This is still amongst important cultivation items in the Niger river delta region. Similar tools used for cultivation purposes have been located in parts of Central Africa dating to about the same period, earlier and later. And then you have pottery, which have been compared with Saharan types, and are deemed to have some affinities.
Genetics dates divergence of E3a carriers from the PN2 lineage at ~ 18.8 ky ago [see Semino et al., 2004], which is reasonable, given the proposed age for the proto-Niger-Congo language's age at ca. 15ky old.
quote:Which renders your blanket statement that “many Niger-Congo speakers only entered West Africa over the past 4000 years,” false. The understanding alone that the ancestral Bantu speakers arrived from Nigerian region [West Africa] in the equatorial forests of the Congo at ca. 5000 years ago [longer than your “4000 years” timeframe], is enough to instill common sense even in a less-than-average intelligent person about Niger Congo speakers having been in the region long before the 4000 years time frame.
Clyde Winters:
You are correct about people living in Nigeria , Cameroon etc., prior to the settlement of the Niger Bend. As a linguist I would never date any language back to 15,000 years ago because there is no way to verify such a date.
quote:Where is the piece in which Ehret mentioned anything about Bantu herein?…and you said I’m the one not keeping up with what is being said?
Clyde Winters:
I don't believe you will find too many people supportin Ehret's dating of Bantu. One of the reasons Nostratic is not accepted by most linguist because of the dating of the language back to 10,000+ BC.
quote:Who are “we”? Speak for yourself. I’ve already mentioned from where and at about when they began to expand. If you don’t like it, then that is “your” problem, not “ours”.
Clyde Winters:
We don't really know where the Bantu migration began.
quote:Again, showing your inattentiveness, and so, I reiterate:
Clyde Winters:
Linguists place the home of the Proto-Bantu, based on the greatest diversity theory. Greatest diversity theory states that the location where there is greatest diversity of a language family is probably the homeland of the family. Since the greatest diversity of Bantu languages is in Cameroon, they named this as the location of Proto-Bantu.
quote:^Logical fallacy. There are many more who place the origins of Semitic languages in Africa.
Clyde Winters:
It is interesting to note, that even though the greatest diverisy of Semitic languages is in Ethiopia, many researchers continue to claim that the Middle East is the original homeland for the speakers of this language family.
quote:You make it seem that I’ve put words in your mouth. Who said this?…
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:I understand that Mystery. I never said Egyptians were very distant from West Africans but rather they are of course closer to neighboring northeast Africans. Of course both broad-type and narrow-type Africans are common in all regions of Africa, but we have to keep in mind the clinal pattern involved.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
We've gone through the Brace study [2005], which only had a single west African sample from Benin. He has already acknowledged the glaring flaws in his earlier studies. As for Batrawi, from what I've read, I don't recall him talking about west African being distinct from the Nile Valley, so citation along those lines would be welcomed. Please understand that I'm asking you these specifics based on your original mention of "quite distant from West Africans", when it is clear that West Africa has a host of people with diverse phenotypes, discussed ad nauseam here. In fact, Keita and others before him, have shown that AE crania fit both the so-called 'broad' and 'elongated' archetypes. In this regard, it would be interesting to note why AE crania would be "quite distant from that of West Africans".
quote:^Was it not you?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Craniometric studies show that Egyptians are actually quite distant from West Africans but are not surprisingly quite close to northern Sudanese and even Nilotic people from Kenya.
quote:Benin haplotype sickel cell is deemed to have west African origin…hence the name Benin haplotype. That is what makes its presence in contemporary Egyptians interesting.
Djehuti:
And Yonis, Hotep is indeed correct that Benin HBS (sickle cell) was found among the remains of ancient Egyptians. No doubt this is due to shared Saharan origins with West Africans.
quote:What study are basing the idea that the “original West Africans were probably Khoisan-like” on? And is this genotype or phenotype?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
There is much evidence that the West Africans have an East Africn ancestry. The question is how far back in time did they split. You have the DNA studies, but you all haven't read them closely enough.
The genetic proof is the L3 mtDNA in West Africans. The original West Africans were probably Khoisan-like with L1 and L2 mtDNAs.
quote:On what study are you basing the idea that “tall Sudanic type Negroes only began to enter West Africa at some point around 4,000 to 3,000 years ago”?
MyRedCow:
The original Y chromozome of the West Africans was probably A. At some point around 4000 to 3000 years ago tall Sudanic type Negroes began to enter West Africa. Probably E3a and these men married local pygmy-type women.
quote:It is impossible to date the common ancestor of any language.
Is there any linguistic evidence as to how old the Niger-Kordofan languages of West Africa are? In other words, when did Most Recent Common Linguistic Ancestors exist?
quote:I think this was the point...
My claim!
Well, I (and not humble at all) can say without a shadow of a doubt that as an African-American, that some of my relatives once lived in the ancient Nile Valley; If I have, and of course I do, one Wolof or Yoruba or Fulani or Tuareg ancestor (I probably have all four) then my ancestry can be traced back to the ancient Nile Valley (Yes, to Kemet). I can also expect to find relatives in the kingdoms and provinces of Benin, Kanem-Bornu, Songhai, Mali, Sankore; also amongst the Dogon, the Kongo, the Zulu...
There is simply too much history and science to dispute this, my heritage. A fool might give it a try, but...
[/QB]
quote:Alright, I've seen tall women here in America (like 5'10, 5'11) that had big butts...LOL...so...I don't think it's defined by simply the shorter pygmy-like women.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Oprah was told that she was Zulu. She is Kpelle a Mande speaking people in Liberia. I'm pretty sure her mtDNA is L1. She has the wide face, large rear and shirt stature that points to a more pygmy like background.
The pygmy women have larger bottoms to store up nutrition in case of drought because they are hunter gatherers.
The tall Sudanic type farmers, the Negroes, had a more complex society and were farmers. They came from the Nile Valley and introduced megalithic architecture into West Africa.
quote:I hope you realize that your own source contradicts your earlier statement about “tall Sudanic type Negroes” [btw a blatant throwback to Eurocentric stereotyping] arriving in the West African region at ca. 4000 to 3000 years ago. This [your earlier statement] is immediately rendered questionable, when one simply considers the understanding that proto-Bantu speakers arose in the Nigerian-Cameroon border region at ca. 5000 years ago B.P. So what does this tell us?…that Niger-Congo speaking groups had already been in the region prior to 5000 years B.P. Your citation itself places the arrival of “ancestors of modern West Africans” at ca. 7000 years ago B.P.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
I first read about this in French language publications. This is in English:
http://en.allexperts.com/e/h/hi/history_of_west_africa.htm
Prehistory
Archaeological studies at Mejiro Cave have found that early human settlers, probably related to the Pygmies, had arrived in West Africa around 12,000 B.C.E. Microlithic stone industries have been found primarily in the region of the Savannah where fairly advanced pastoral tribes existed using chiseled stone blades and spears. The tribesmen of Guinea and the forested regions of the coast were without microliths for thousands of years, but prospered using bone tools and other means. In the fifth millennium, as the ancestors of modern West Africans began entering the area, the development of sedentary farming began to take place in West Africa, with evidences of domesticated cattle having been found for this period, along with limited cereal crops. Around 3000 BCE, a major change began to take place in West African society, with microliths becoming more common in the Sahel region, with the invention of primitive harpoons and fish-hooks.
Ancient West Africa included the Sahara, as the Sahara only became a desert in around 3000 BC (see Sahara).
A major migration of Sahel cattle farmers took place in the third millennium BCE, and the pastoralists encountered the developed hunter-gatherers of the Guinea region. Flint was considerably more available there and made the use of microliths in hunting far easier. The migration of the Sahel farmers was likely caused by the final desiccation of the Sahara desert in this millennium, which contributed greatly to West Africa's isolation from cultural and technological phenomena in Europe and the Mediterranean Coast of Africa. Nevertheless, the increased use of iron and the spread of ironworking technology led to improved weaponry and enabled farmers to expand agricultural productivity and produce surplus crops, which together supported the growth of urban city-states into empires.
By 400 BCE, contact had been made with the Mediterranean civilizations, including that of Carthage, and a regular trade in gold being conducted with the Sahara Berbers, as noted by Herodotus. The trade was fairly small until the camel was introduced, with Mediterranean goods being found in pits as far south as Northern Nigeria. A profitable trade had developed by which West Africans exported gold, cotton cloth, metal ornaments, and leather goods north across the trans-Saharan trade routes, in exchange for copper, horses, salt, textiles, and beads. Later, ivory, slaves, and kola nuts were added to the trade.
Empires
quote:L1 has an east African origin, and as such, how do you deem it to be “Khoisan-like”?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like. They had the L1 mtDNA. These are the first humans period. As time went on L2 developed from L1 and then L3 developed in East Africa.
quote:I would say most, in the sense that AT SOME POINT, most European Americans maintained a national conscious of their roots in Europe. Historically, various immigrant groups competed for jobs and power in America, over other immigrants. This caused much friction between the later arrivals of Polish, French, Italian and other ethnic groups in America. Of the first settlers, most dont really consider themselves as a nationality, because they mostly came from Britain, but subsequently fought AGAINST the British for independence. Therefore, those that came later as immigrant workers, had a much more pronounced sense of national identity in America, because of the competition and outward hostility of other European ethnic groups and Americans against them. But also important was nationalistic pride in the acheivements of those groups in America. Italians were famous as stonemasons, Germans were known for their mills and industrial skills, etc.
Originally posted by lamin:
Useful observations re the above topic, but here are some questions and points.
To Doug,
Is it correct that MOST(i.e. not all) Euro-Americans state that their genealogies are rarely mono-ethnic or mono-national. It's always something like Polish with German with Italian; or English with Swiss with something else, etc. ; or Irish with English with Swiss, etc?
quote:Of course, ancient Egyptian crania will cluster closely with neighbouring groups, due to proximity, but to adequately assess the "closeness" or "distance" of ancient Egyptian crania with those from west Africa, one would have studied adequate sampling from west Africa. The question is: Have Egyptian crania been compared with a wide variety of crania from west Africa?...and even so, as you have acknowledged, the AE crania were deemed to fit both the so-called 'elongated' and 'broad' archetypes. Matter of fact, certain lower Egyptian samples showed a modal pattern similar to those from the Maghreb. Are the Maghrebians not west Africans after all?
Originally posted by Djehuti:
To Mystery Solver, I apprently did not clarify my point about the craniometry. What I meant to say was that Egyptian crania are more distant to West Africans in comparison to other neighboring peoples in northeast Africa and even in sub-Saharan East Africa. Do you not agree with this assessment? Surely Egyptians by and large are closer related to neighboring groups than to populations all the way across the continent in the Guinea Coast.
quote:I didn't say it didn't exist...I just said I've seen tall women with big butts. You mean to tell me you haven't? And I still want to see where you can show all of this evidence of proof of East/West African relations.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
This is waht wiki says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatopygia
Whatever!
YES
NO
That's just me! :-)
quote:This is common claim made with and understandable basis, but it is overly simplistic.
The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like.
quote:Why don't these Guyanese, Jamaicans, and Haitians classify themselves as so and not "African-American". Why would they labeled themselves "African-American" if they know their identity and who they are. African-Americans applies to those who are descendants of American slaves who were brought to the U.S.. Everyone knows that. Black Americans are American because that's who they are and where they're from, Haitians classify as Hatians because that who they are and where they are from. It is no difference when it comes to black "Americans".
Originally posted by Doug M:
African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves, they have NO IDEA, in most cases, who they are and WHERE they are from. Americans from Europe dont call themselves European Americans, they call themselves Irish, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Greek, French, German and so on... American, all national identities. Only Africans from the diaspora are labelled as one monolithic group, which denies the fact that all Africans are not the same and all do not have the same background.
quote:What makes someone who say I'm "Haitian", "Jamaican", or "Guyanese" are more aware of their identity and who they are, but when a black American say they are "American" it is flawed. Those black people from the Caribbean and South American don't have a clue of who their ancestors are except they were "African" slaves. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
[/qb]
quote:From: http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/racefactcb.html
By January 1, 2003, all current surveys must comply with the 1997 revisions to the Office of Management and Budget's standards for data on race and ethnicity, which establish a minimum of five categories for race: American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black or African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and White. Respondents will be able to select one or more of these racial categories. The minimum categories for ethnicity will be Hispanic or Latino and Not Hispanic or Latino. Tabulations of the racial categories will be shown as long as they meet agency standards for data quality and confidentiality protection. For most surveys, however, tables will show data at most for the White, Black, and Asian populations.
quote:These people have their own Nation.
Why don't these Guyanese, Jamaicans, and Haitians classify themselves as so and not "African-American". Why would they labeled themselves "African-American" if they know their identity and who they are. African-Americans applies to those who are descendants of American slaves who were brought to the U.S..
quote:^
Originally posted by Yonis:
The American race census is hilarious, a sudanese dinka (probably blackest people on earth) would be considered "white" while a light skinned Pakistani would not if they both came to U.S. by the authorities.
I don't even want to know what those colors indicate!quote:I think the US is the only nation in the world that uses outdated, debunked racial classifications!
Originally posted by yazid904:
American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet!
merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
quote:^ I don't know how the above cannot be stressed any more! I don't know why this misconception is so pervasive. What is the motive to claiming 'Khoisan' phenotype for early Homo Sapiens? Is it because of negrophobia and some folks feel more comfortable with having Khoisan who are not that dark as ancestors??
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:This is common claim made with and understandable basis, but it is overly simplistic.
The original humans all over Africa were Khoisan like.
If you were given a skeletan - could you clearly distinguish it as Khoisan as a *phenotype?*
That would be a remarkable claim because most anthropologist cannot, and do not ever agree.
Some anthropologists have refered to the oldest human remains found in the Nile Valley as being Negroid - Ethiopic, or Khoisanoid.
Like references have been made with regard to the oldest southern African remains.
This is what needs to be understood ->
Khoisan is a languge group, it is not a race.
There is no logic and no proof involved in the suggestion that all humans were once 'morphologically' khoisanoid.
Modern south African Khoisan have some particular adaptations which were not necessarily common in rift valley AFricans.
For example - south African Khoisan tend to lack the tropical limb ratios that characterise early rift valley and Nile Valley Africans.
It's also important to bear in mind the recent work of Tishkoff - who found that Tanzanian East Africans had the oldest maternal lineages to date.
Among these Tanzanians are: Masai, Datoga, [Nilotic], Burunge [Cushitic], Sandawe and Hadza [Khoisan].
All of these peoples have distinct phenotypes, and none of them look exactly like South African Khoisan.
Moreover, their are no people outside of Africa who look 'exactly' like the Khoisan either.
There is no proof that "Khoisan" constitutes *the original* phenotype, nor is it logical to imagine that Africa *ever* had a single phenotype.
And now....this is rendering of the oldest identified modern homo-sapiens, Herto man of Ethiopia, cira 150 kya:
^ Herto does not *particularly* resemble South African Khoisan anymore than he does Masai or Datoga.
Of course you can all him Khoisanoid, if you like...or Negroid, or even Caucazoid.
Stereotypes are easy to defend when they are not based on data, but only tautological reasoning and seeing exactly what we want to see....and nothing more.
quote:You mean the black Egyptian man who sued the US government? He sued them because the census categorized all Egyptians as "whites" or "caucasians". I dont think he ever categorized himself as "Nubian", this is something that someone ELSE attached to him.....
Originally posted by Djehuti:
LOL It reminds me of the black Nubian man from Egypt who sued the US government for classifying him as 'white'! LMAO
quote:I keep noticing that you keep saying that African Americans are descendants from slaves. You sound like a Euro ... actually you are a European who is talking something that you really don't understand.
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Why don't these Guyanese, Jamaicans, and Haitians classify themselves as so and not "African-American". Why would they labeled themselves "African-American" if they know their identity and who they are. African-Americans applies to those who are descendants of American slaves who were brought to the U.S.. Everyone knows that. Black Americans are American because that's who they are and where they're from, Haitians classify as Hatians because that who they are and where they are from. It is no difference when it comes to black "Americans".
Originally posted by Doug M:
African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves, they have NO IDEA, in most cases, who they are and WHERE they are from. Americans from Europe dont call themselves European Americans, they call themselves Irish, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Greek, French, German and so on... American, all national identities. Only Africans from the diaspora are labelled as one monolithic group, which denies the fact that all Africans are not the same and all do not have the same background.
What makes someone who say I'm "Haitian", "Jamaican", or "Guyanese" are more aware of their identity and who they are, but when a black American say they are "American" it is flawed. Those black people from the Caribbean and South American don't have a clue of who their ancestors are except they were "African" slaves.
quote:You should be banned for such personal attacks? I don't know you, infact this is the first post i've ever read made by you. No one has ever called me what you just called me, who the hell are you first of all?
kephra:
People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories.
quote:Personal attack? All one have to do is go through your post and see that you have a problem with a certain set of people.
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:You should be banned for such personal attacks? I don't know you, infact this is the first post i've ever read made by you. No one has ever called me what you just called me, who the hell are you first of all?
kephra:
People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories.
If you're gonna call people names the least you can do is to back it up, stupid hoe!
quote:Beneth all this is a motive strongly driven by genetic survial.
Originally posted by yazid904:
American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet!
merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
quote:And who exactly are these imaginative people i have a problem with?
Originally posted by Khepra:
quote:Personal attack? All one have to do is go through your post and see that you have a problem with a certain set of people.
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:You should be banned for such personal attacks? I don't know you, infact this is the first post i've ever read made by you. No one has ever called me what you just called me, who the hell are you first of all?
kephra:
People like Yonis (racist) believe in such theories.
If you're gonna call people names the least you can do is to back it up, stupid hoe!
If I'm banned for speaking the truth then that fine ...
quote:'Genetic survival' of who? Whites?? How does classifying black people from North Africa as 'white' fulfill that purpose?!
Originally posted by Kemson:
quote:Beneth all this is a motive strongly driven by genetic survial.
Originally posted by yazid904:
American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet!
merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:Why can't a Black be racist toward another Black. If an African hates other Africans he is just as racist as a white.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I think some folks in here get the impression that you are being condescending toward African Americans or looking down on them. Either way I don't know how this could be 'racist' considering that you Yonis are black also! LOL Maybe ethnically prejudice but not racist. Also, I have actually witnessed people from West Africa that really (wrongly) look down on African Americans.
I suggest you guys take all of this black-on-black hating crap on another forum. This is Egyptsearch not BET.com!
quote:'Genetic survival' of who? Whites?? How does classifying black people from North Africa as 'white' fulfill that purpose?!
Originally posted by Kemson:
quote:Beneth all this is a motive strongly driven by genetic survial.
Originally posted by yazid904:
American census, is a joke because there are ulterior motives that abound and i doh pay dem no mind! It is bogus against those other than European and funny thing they put everybodies continent (Asia, Africa, etc) but leave European out! Da stink doth smelt liek eau de toliet!
merde! makes me wanna holla at da playaz! he ha
[ 
quote:Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
quote:Really? whoa I'm suprised
Also, I have actually witnessed people from West Africa that really (wrongly) look down on African Americans.
quote:E3a newcomers replaced A Y chromosome originals and married L1 and L2 women.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
[QUOTE]Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
quote:Agreed. I think that the more a Black is acculturated to Western civilization the more they hate other Blacks, this was proven by the research of Fanon.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
quote:E3a newcomers replaced A Y chromosome originals and married L1 and L2 women.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
[QUOTE]Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
To the rest of y'all,
West Africans don't hate African Americans.
) which defines 'race' as a people of a particular phenotype or color. If by this, I don't see how a black African can be racist against another person of African descent unless you are as mentally colonised as the northern Sudanese, or Hutus and Tusis of Rawanda, or as twisted as some 'Horner supremacists'.quote:^ Wow, I knew such prejudice existed but I didn't know it was that bad.
Originally posted by Doug M:
Just yesterday I was talking to some neighbors about an African restaurant in the neighborhood. They dont serve the people in the neighborhood. The people I was talking to all said the same thing, that the Africans look down on the African Americans and dont want to associate with them........
While we all talk about African unity, history and consciousness, the fact is that there is a lot of bigotry within the African community, both in and outside of Africa. If it wasnt for that, it would not have been so easy for Africa to have been conquered in the first place.
quote:I think part of the reason is ethnic conceit or egotism common among many African groups, while another is the negative stereotypes that abound about African Americans. Likely it is the unpleasant combination of both.
Originally posted by Masonic Rebel:
Really? whoa I'm suprised
I don't understand why, when we African Americans are so fly
So I guess instead of the Foreign Aid some West Africans are On Hater Aid also Sad Could Jealousy be the reason ?
quote:LOL I noticed that. When BET first came out, I thought it was like the black version of MTV. But then they had other things besides music, including more intelligent stuff. But ever since Via com bought it, it went downhill. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Anyway BET doesn't represent Black Americans anymore It Just Represent Mindless Capitalism
Offically in the Black Adult Community Known as Channel Zero
Owned by Via- Con
quote:Yes please?...
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
quote:And non of the lineages above are associated with a specific phenotype such as short and steatopygous (which is found in tall women also) or tall and slender.
Originally posted by rasol:
L1, L2 and L3 are all East African in origin.
E3 [father of E3a and E3b] is found in both Senegal and Ethiopia. E1 and E2 are also found in West and East Africa.
And don't forget DE* precursor of D and E has been found to date only in Nigeria, and *not* in East Africa.
Haplotype A and B also originated in East Africa.
A is rare in West Africa and more common in Sudan Ethiopia and Southern/East Africa.
Haplotype B is more common in West Africa and is possibly the 1st male haplotype of West Africa, followed by DE*(?), then E1, E2, E3, and thence E3a. (?)
quote:There is inter-ethnic bigotry everywhere. Just look at the way German and Irish hated each other...and the British as well. Puerto Ricans vs. Cubans or Mexicans. Chinese and Japanese and/or Korean. It happens within all races everywhere sadly.
Originally posted by Doug M:
Just yesterday I was talking to some neighbors about an African restaurant in the neighborhood. They dont serve the people in the neighborhood. The people I was talking to all said the same thing, that the Africans look down on the African Americans and dont want to associate with them........
While we all talk about African unity, history and consciousness, the fact is that there is a lot of bigotry within the African community, both in and outside of Africa. If it wasnt for that, it would not have been so easy for Africa to have been conquered in the first place.
quote:If he has answered it, I must have missed it, because again this is about evidence of 'replacement' of a certain male population(s) by another [set of] male population(s). It goes without saying of course, that MyRedCow didn't answer the question he was presumably answering, because simply saying something happened doesn't mean it happened so...evidence is required.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Yes please?...
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Which specific population [the men] were displaced, and according to what scientific indicators?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
But, that doesn't mean there weren't successive waves of tall East Africans coming in slowly over time marrying the original women displacing the original men.
But Rasol answers the question.
quote:Doug,
Originally posted by Doug M:
African Americans are descended from black African slaves as well as other African migrants in more recent times, from throughout the diaspora. The term African American does NOT only identify Americans who are descended from those who were brought to America as slaves. I know people from ALL OVER THE PLANET that are in America and called African American and are not descended from American slaves. Therefore, the term is NOT an absolute genetic reference or ethnic identity that has any real meaning relative to all the various populations in Africa. I know Guyanans, Jamaicans, Haitians, continental Africans and others who are all called African Americans today. That is EXACTLY the whole problem of the identity crisis for African Americans who descended from slaves.
Fundamentally, Ancient Egypt is part of the heritage of African Americans as both populations stem from the same background, Africa. But that is different from direct ancestry. However, given that human beings first existed in Eastern Africa before any other place on earth and that the Nile is a direct link between the birthplace of modern humans and Egypt, it is not far fetched that ancient Egyptians could have descended from populations that were indeed ancestral to West Africans.
quote:Well I want some! Yum! I haven't had a homecook (Filippino) meal in a while since I'm at school for the summer.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Djehuti,
It's Gullah food. But, Gullah food and culture is at the root of African American culture and the meal is a typical African American meal across the country.
quote:The thing is you are wrong as people in this thread are trying to tell you. Phenotype and DNA do essentially match since phenotype is the result of DNA, but the thing we are dealing with specifically are lineages which do not necessarily match with phenotype. What exactly is your 'Sudanic newcomer' theory based on anyway?
Phenotypes and DNA do not always match. I generally stick to the Sudanic newcomer THEORY.
I was not there thousands of years ago. I do not know for sure 100%. I could be wrong.
quote:Rasol did answer the question with evidence that there was no displacement of populations in West Africa by any newcomers. That was my point.
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
If he has answered it, I must have missed it, because again this is about evidence of 'replacement' of a certain male population(s) by another [set of] male population(s). It goes without saying of course, that MyRedCow didn't answer the question he was presumably answering, because simply saying something happened doesn't mean it happened so...evidence is required.
quote:Of course I'm absolutely correct!
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:...there's tons and tons more evidence as well, for the ill-informed ...
Some Relevant Information From the Nile Valley Forum
([my corrections])
Akpakpla wrote:
Mdw Ntr:
her,"head" [hor]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect spoken in Senegal)
hoore,"head"
Mdw Ntr:
seped her,"clever"(written with the Md Ntr of a cone) [sepde hor]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect)
seebde hoore,"to have a pointed head(i.e.to be clever)"
Mdw Ntr:
wpw her,"to except" [wopu hor]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect)
woppu hoore,"to leave a head(i.e.to except)
Mdw Ntr:
irt "eye" [iret/eiat]
Pulaar:
yiireete "eye"
Mdw Ntr:
irt bnt, "the Evil Eye" [iret boone]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect)
yiireete bonnde, "the Evil Eye"
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Why? Pray tell are we still trying to prove the obvious?
Originally posted by Wally:
quote:Of course I'm absolutely correct!
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^ Wally is absolutely correct. The linguistic, anthropological, archaeological and toponymic evidence makes it clear that the majority of West Africans originally lived in the Nile Valley.
The linguistic research, especially, makes it clear that the Wolof, Fula, Mande and Bantu speakers speak languages genetically related to ancient Egyptian. Because the ancestors of Afro-Americans spoke these languages we must admit that these people are of Egyptian origin.
And here's more solid evidence;
quote:...there's tons and tons more evidence as well, for the ill-informed ...
Some Relevant Information From the Nile Valley Forum
([my corrections])
Akpakpla wrote:
Mdw Ntr:
her,"head" [hor]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect spoken in Senegal)
hoore,"head"
Mdw Ntr:
seped her,"clever"(written with the Md Ntr of a cone) [sepde hor]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect)
seebde hoore,"to have a pointed head(i.e.to be clever)"
Mdw Ntr:
wpw her,"to except" [wopu hor]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect)
woppu hoore,"to leave a head(i.e.to except)
Mdw Ntr:
irt "eye" [iret/eiat]
Pulaar:
yiireete "eye"
Mdw Ntr:
irt bnt, "the Evil Eye" [iret boone]
Pulaar(Fulani dialect)
yiireete bonnde, "the Evil Eye"
And every African-American (who is a descendant of the original population; circa 1600-1800) has some Fulani ancestry!
This is really a no-brainer, and simple enough for even a toddler to understand...
quote:This is Keita's position based on the physical evidence. I concur with it.
Why can't it be accepted that West Africans share a common origin with some Egyptians via the Sahara??
quote:In a genetic context? If so, this meaningful genetic exchange can be demonstrated from...?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
. The Peul have a definite Jewish background.
quote:The Berbers are just proclaiming themselves as Africans by tracing their customs and traditions back to those of ancient populations in the African continent. They cannot CLAIM these traditions because they exist in a time period PRIOR to any "Berber" presence or identity in Africa and over a geographic range that is NOT part of the present day "Berber" population centers. "Berber" is a language group and a language group cannot CLAIM culture. The culture of Africa and Africans is too ancient, spans too many language groups, cultures and populations to be SOLELY identified with "Berbers", which is just ONE relatively recent linguistic grouping that occupies a relatively small part of Northern Africa.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Djehuti,
Believe what you will. This is a big topic which I haven't finished researching, if I ever do.
I found in a book of Moroccan history a statue from Egypt in a Roman grave. The Berbers are claiming Egypt big time. They are claiming the ram headed god and the cattle in Kemet.
The Amazigh want to claim partially the Senegambian megaliths. They want to claim everything and the foundation of AE itself. They say they inherited the legacy of AE.
http://users.telenet.be/african-shop/berberes_amazigh.htm
When you say the West Africans and Ancient Egyptians have Saharan roots, this implies Amazigh roots. This is a tricky analysis. They want Timbuktu, the tumuli, all the megaliths, and iron production. They want it all.
quote:You're proud of this??
Previously posted by Red cow:
Some of the Slavemasters were Jewish and impregnated their slaves.
quote:Yeah but who cares? African history, culture and tradition is OLDER than any tradition of Berbers speakers and therefore they cannot CLAIM it. The "Berbers" are not the MOTHERS of African culture, they are PART of African history and culture. To put MODERN Berber speakers as the IMPETUS behind the development of culture, language and civilization in Africa going back tens of thousands of years is an absolutely ridiculous concept, period, as the Berber language is only 3,000 years old at most.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Doug M,
Yeah, but they are doing it anyway.
quote:Okay? Where is the marker of "Jewish infusion" in Fulani/Peuls? I hope you realize that the R1*-M173 found in the Jordanian [not the Peuls/Fulani mind you, who were the subject of the question] sample, as the piece rightfully notes, is relatively rare outside of N. Cameroon. That aside and other than African ancestry as denoted by E-M215 (E3b3 in this case) lineages in the Jordanian sample, how instructive is this piece towards the question I posed to you?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Mystery Solver,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Flores C, Maca-Meyer N, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Karadsheh N, Gonzalez AM.
Departamento de Genetica, Facultad de Biologia, Universidad de La Laguna, 38271 Tenerife, Spain.
A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.
quote:Well, you must have recognized that Fulani maternal gene pool is overwhelming of African extractions. And you guessed it right; it is more likely that the very small percentage of those with Eurasian TMRCAs comes from historic interactions with the more northerly "Berber" speaking groups, from coastal northwest Africa, who are known to have relatively high frequencies of Eurasion maternal lineages [in contrast to their paternal ones]. Apparently not all "Berbers" had adopted Judaism, so that would be a generalization.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations.Cerny V, Hajek M, Bromova M, Cmejla R, Diallo I, Brdicka R.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
Department of Anthropology and Environment, Institute of Archeology, Czech Academy of Sciences, Prague.
Despite the large size of the contemporary nomadic Fulani population (roughly 13 million people), the genetic diversity and degree of differentiation of Fulanis compared to other sub-Saharan populations remain unknown. We sampled four Fulani nomad populations (n = 186) in three countries of sub-Saharan Africa (Chad, Cameroon, and Burkina Faso) and analyzed sequences of the first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA. Most of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total). As in African hunter-gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) and some populations from central Tunisia (Kesra and Zriba), three of the Fulani nomad samples do not reveal significant negative values of Fu's selective neutrality test. The multidimensional scaling of FST genetic distances of related sub-Saharan populations and the analysis of molecular variance (AMOVA) show clear and close relationships between all pairs of the four Fulani nomad samples, irrespective of their geographic origin. The only group of nomadic Fulani that manifests some similarities with geographically related agricultural populations (from Guinea-Bissau and Nigeria) comes from Tcheboua in northern Cameroon
Before you say these mtDNAs are Berber. Remember Berber tribes adopted Judaism.
quote:For your information the Hebrew Isrealites did this in the 1960's. Most of these Afro-Americans live in Demona, Israel.
Originally posted by yazid904:
I basically agree but my immediate reality is that it is foolish for any African American to claim Egyptian heritage because of the Africanity of continent? Just me!
It like some Mississppi and Alabama African Americans all of a sudden going to Israel and proclaiming themselves the original Israelites!
quote:I don't question some "Berber"-speakers did so, but I do fail to see how this addresses my point about your generalization: 1)Do you have objective corroboration to the idea that "Berbers" were generally "Jewish" followers?
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Mystery Solver,
The Berbers were Jewish/Israelite pagans and lost that religion over time. Fuuta Toro in Senegal is same as the land of Tekrour. The main Fulani homeland in West Africa. The Tor in Tor means the Sinai Peninsula. This is central to Fulani identity.
quote:Good grief, learn to translate, and learn to recognize a largely English speaking forum when you come across one. Most of all, learn to back up your claims. You still haven't shown sqwat to back up your claim that "Berbers" were supposedly generally "Jewish" or what happened to the 'lost' tribes of the definite "Jewish" ancestors of the Fulani.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Oh! Good Grief! Learn French. it's all over the French speaking Internet!
http://www.amazighblog.over-blog.com/article-926962.html
http://dafina.net/forums/read.php?49,123608
http://www.amitiejudeonoire.com/articles.php?id=74&rub=2
http://ecrits-vains.com/mots_dits/willar88.htm
Lisez vous et fermez votre bouche!
quote:Bottom line is physical anthropology, genetics, and archaeology, support shared origins from the Sahara. NON of these disciplines support any Egyptian mass exodus from the Nile Valley to West Africa!
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:This is Keita's position based on the physical evidence. I concur with it.
Why can't it be accepted that West Africans share a common origin with some Egyptians via the Sahara??
quote:Ps - Soutenez vos revendications ou gardez bouche cousue!
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Good grief, learn to translate, and learn to recognize a largely English speaking forum when you come across one. Most of all, learn to back up your claims. You still haven't shown sqwat to back up your claim that "Berbers" were supposedly generally "Jewish" or what happened to the 'lost' tribes of the definite "Jewish" ancestors of the Fulani.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Oh! Good Grief! Learn French. it's all over the French speaking Internet!
http://www.amazighblog.over-blog.com/article-926962.html
http://dafina.net/forums/read.php?49,123608
http://www.amitiejudeonoire.com/articles.php?id=74&rub=2
http://ecrits-vains.com/mots_dits/willar88.htm
Lisez vous et fermez votre bouche!
quote:I cosign Yonis bemusement, but at the whole thread, basically.
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:You're proud of this??
Previously posted by Red cow:
Some of the Slavemasters were Jewish and impregnated their slaves.
quote:If I didn't know any better, I'd say you have bought into one of the extra-African/foreign origin myths some Africans weave for religious status.
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
Mystery Solver,
The Berbers were Jewish/Israelite pagans and lost that religion over time. Fuuta Toro in Senegal is same as the land of Tekrour. The main Fulani homeland in West Africa. The Tor in Tor means the Sinai Peninsula. This is central to Fulani identity.
quote:
Djehuti stated:
Bottom line is physical anthropology, genetics, and archaeology, support shared origins from the Sahara. NON of these disciplines support any Egyptian mass exodus from the Nile Valley to West Africa!
quote:You took the words right out of my mouth...I'm about to puke
Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:You're proud of this??
Previously posted by Red cow:
Some of the Slavemasters were Jewish and impregnated their slaves.
quote:Understandable. The mythical geneologies or fictional lineages depend very much on religous influence. But all in all, they are still fictional.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
As Muslims it does Torodbe Fulani little good, if not
outright disservice, to claim Israelite antecedents.
Consequently, some have altered the ethno-mythos to
name `Esaw rather than Ya`aqob as their "Abrahamide"
progenitor.
quote:I disagree. He is not and I'm sure people can think of why.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
...Why can't a Black be racist toward another Black. If an African hates other Africans he is just as racist as a white.
quote:Have you ever read Fanon?
Originally posted by Kemson:
quote:I disagree. He is not and I'm sure people can think of why.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
...Why can't a Black be racist toward another Black. If an African hates other Africans he is just as racist as a white.
quote:You are correct the role of Inyotef 1 in the reunification of EGYPT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE of the role of southerners in Egyptian history .
"And it was from the darker, tropical south from whence the dynasties sprung.. with numerous
cultural links to the south.. "
quote:.
Originally posted by Wally:
Note that these Ntr totemic names, when used to designate a group, the name comes to
mean some variation of "people" in their contemporary language, ie:
Akan (in Akan) = first people
Fante (in Fante) = people who left the Akan
Oromo (in Oromo) = people, resurrected human beings
Tutsi (in Kirundi) = people of wealth, first people
...
quote:Correct. Many people hate this idea because they like to claim that no people can claim a relationship with ancient Egypt, because Northern Europeans can not claim a relationship with Greece.
Originally posted by mena7:
Some Akan, Yoruba(Heru ba), Ibo, Jukun, Bamun, Ga, Soninke,Adja, Haussa etc scholars stated their ancestars come from A Egypt .According to the book Face a Face by F Lemoine the Adja people of Dahomey live in Egypt.The Adja people are named in Egyptian sarcophagus text 132.<Ink Neter en Adja> Im the God of the Adja.Adja named their unique God Mawu or Yeve(Yahve/Yahweh).If those West African nations or ethnic group migrated from A Egypt then the Afro American diasporas are descendant of Ancient Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
African Americans' Wolof Ancestry...
Mtau Ntr Bu nafret su em bu bon, "a good place has become an evil place"
Wolof Bu rafet mel ni bu bon, "a good place has become an evil place"
(good place = "bu nafret/bu rafet
(evil place = "bu bon/bu bon
Mtau Ntr mer on ef, "he loved"
Wolof maar on ef, "he loved passionately"
Mtau Ntr mer on es, "she loved"
Wolof maar on es, "she loved passionately"
Mtau Ntr mer on sen, "they loved"
Wolof maar on sen, "they loved passionately"
Mtau Ntr and Wolof Demonstratives
(this, that, these, those - P > B)
Mtau Ntr/Wolof
pw/bw
pwy/bwy
pane/bane
pafe/bafe
pafa/bafa
pa/ba
ipatw/batw
ipatne/batne
ipatafe/batafe
...su nufre...
The genetic relationship between two languages is
determined by examining the basic vocabulary of the two
languages. When there is systematic correspondence between
the two languages in a large number of basic words, such as
body parts, lower numerals and natural objects, the existence
of a genetic relationship cannot be in doubt.
Mtau Ntr - Wolof
aam - aam : seize (take this)
aar - aar : paradise (divine protection)
atef - ate : a crown of Osiris, judge of the soul (to judge)
ba - bei : the ram-god (goat)
bai - bai : a priestly title (father)
ben ben - ben ben : overflow, flood
bon - bon : evil
bu - bu : place
bu bon - bu bon : evil place
bu nafret - bu rafet : good place
da - da : child
deresht - deret : blood
diou - diou rom : five
djit - djit : magistrate (guide, leader)
fero - fari : king
iaay - yaay : old woman (mother)
itef - itef : father
kat - Cott li : vagina ('Katt bi' is a vulgar term for having sex)
kau - kaou : elevated, above (heaven)
kaw - kaw : height
kef - kef : to seize, grasp
kem -khem : black (burnt, burnt black)
kemat - kematef : end of a period, completion, limit
khekh - khekh : to fight, to wage war, war
kwk - kwk : darkness
maat - mat : justice
maga - mag : veteran, old person
mer - maar : love (passionate love)
nag - nag : bull (cattle)
nak - nak : ox, bull (cow)
NDam - NDam : throne
neb - ndab : basket (calabash)
nem - temb : float
nen - nen : place where nothing is done (nothingness)
nit - nit : citizen
onef - onef : he (past tense)
ones - ones : she (past tense)
onsen - onsen : they (past tense)
pe - pey : capital, heaven (King's capital)
per - per : house (the wall surrounding the house)
pur - bur : king
rem - erem : to weap, tears (compassion)
ro - ro : mouth (to swallow)
sa - sa : wise, educated, to teach
seked - seggay : a slope
sen - sen : brother
sent - san : sister
set - set : woman (wife)
shopi - sopi : transform
sity - seety : to prove
ta - ta : earth, land (inundated earth)
ta tenen - ten : first lands (clay of first humans)
tefnit - tefnit : to spit
top - bop : top of head
...
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
(update...)
The genetic relationship (descent from a common ancestor)
between two languages is determined by examining the basic vocabulary
of the two languages. When there is systematic correspondence between
the two languages in a large number of basic words, such as body parts,
lower numerals and natural objects, the existence of a genetic relationship
cannot be in doubt.
Pharaonic Egyptian - Wolof; (Wolof meaning)
aam - aam : seize (take this)
aar - aar : paradise (divine protection)
Aku - Aku : foreigners (Creole descendants of European traders and African wives)
anu - K.enou : pillar
atef - ate : a crown of Osiris, judge of the soul (to judge)
ba - bei : the ram-god (goat)
bai - bai : a priestly title (father)
ben ben - ben ben : overflow, flood
bon - bon : evil
bu - bu : place
bu bon - bu bon : evil place
bu nafret - bu rafet : good place
da - da : child
deg - deega : to see, to look at carefully (to understand)
deresht - deret : blood
diou - diou rom : five
djit - djit : magistrate (guide, leader)
dtti - datti : the savage desert (the savage brush)
Etbo - temb : the 'floater' (to float)
fei - fab : to carry
fero - fari : king
iaay - yaay : old woman (mother)
ire - yer : to make
itef - itef : father
kat - kata : vagina (to have sexual intercourse)
kau - kaou : elevated, above (heaven)
kau - kau : high, above, heaven
kaw - kaw : height
kef - kef : to seize, grasp
kem -khem : black (burnt, burnt black)
kemat - kematef : end of a period, completion, limit
khekh - khekh : to fight, to wage war, war
kher - ker : country (house)
kwk - kwk : darkness
maat - mat : justice
maga - mag : veteran, old person
mer - maar : love (passionate love)
mun - won : buttocks
nag - nag : bull (cattle)
nak - nak : ox, bull (cow)
NDam - NDam : throne
neb - ndab : float
nen - nen : place where nothing is done (nothingness)
nit - nit : citizen
Ntr - Twr : protecting god, totem
nwt - nit : fire of heaven (evening light)
o.k. - wah keh : correct, right
onef - onef : he (past tense)
ones - ones : she (past tense)
onsen - onsen : they (past tense)
pe - pey : capital, heaven (King's capital)
per - per : house (the wall surrounding the house)
pur - bur : king
ram - yaram : body, shoulder (body)
rem - erem : to weap, tears (compassion)
ro - ro : mouth (to swallow)
sa - sa : wise, educated, to teach
seh - seh : noble (dignitary)
seked - seggay : a slope
sen - sen : brother
sent - san : sister
set - set : woman (wife)
shopi - sopi : to transform
sity - seety : to prove
sok - sookha : to pound grain (sokh - to strike, beat)
ta - ta : earth, land (inundated earth)
ta tenen - ten : first lands (clay of first humans)
tefnit - tefnit : to spit
tem - tem : to completely stop doing something
tn.r - dener : to remember (to imagine)
top - bop : top of head
twr - twr : libation
uuh - uuf : carry
wer - wer : great, trustworthy
quote:[/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Wally:
JOURNEY OF THE WOLOF PEOPLE:
(1) FROM KEMET → (2) KUSH → (3) THE MALI EMPIRE →(4) MAURITANIA → (5) SENEGAL
→(6) NEW ORLEANS
quote:You're very sarcastic,ha,ha. No one has ever claimed a relationship between the Pygmy and Egyptian languages. I said that Egyptian was a lingua franca for the people of Egypt.
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
^^Neither has shown Egyptian was a lingua franca for
African peoples south of the Sahara. How was ancient Egyptian
for example the lingua franca of ancient Pygmies,
Khosians or Bantu? As has been pointed out several
times over the years on this forum, there are much
more credible links established with other languages
of Northeast Africa such as the Chadic languages than
anything from Western Africa like Akan. THere may
very well be some language similarities with groups
further south, but how strong are those relationships?
How is Akan or Zulu more related to ancient Egyptian
than say the Chadic languages?
quote:The 'we' I am talking about is researchers who want to bring truth to Egyptian history. Continuing to write Egyptian history from the perspective of Eurocentrists maintain myths that need to be destroyed.
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Clyde wrote It is time we move away from the Eurocentric proposition/idea there was a divide between light and dark skinned Egyptians before the Peoples of the Sea invaded Egypt.
No credible student of African history on ES holds
any such divide. As the Lone Ranger said to Tonto
as his indigenous brothers moved in for the kill:
"Who is this "we" you talking 'bout white man?"
quote:Above you make it clear that there were 'darker, tropical south[eners]'. Use of the term darker implies that you believe the northerners were lighter. This contradicts your statement that no one on ES recognizes such a divide.
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
The originals of Egypt, the dark "sons of the soil"
should not be forgotten..
And it was from the darker, tropical south from
whence the dynasties sprung.. with numerous
cultural links to the south..
Why do you continue to perpetrate this mythical Black/white divide of Egypt ?
Another BS strawman. Can you show where I "perpetrate"
this "black/white divide"? Quote me directly on this
"divide" being "perpetrated?" If anything, on my
years at ES I have hammered claims related to any
such divide. Show me this "perpetration" pray tell...
Furthermore your use of the term "black African" above
indicates that you yourself may be a captive of
the mythical Eurocentric "divide".. And if you don't
buy into it, how come you keep citing European scholars yoself?
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
I said that Egyptian was a lingua franca for the people of Egypt.
^^If the lingua franca was confined to Egypt, how then did you
claim earlier that: "Egyptian language as a lingua franca point to
as a Pan-African civilization. " Seems you are attempting to
backtrack. If language is pertinent, then Egyptian as a "pan African
civilization" should be a lingua franca spread out across a vast
area of Africa. You have failed to demonstrate this and in fact
contradict yourself by now confining the Egyptian language to the
Egyptian people.
quote:There is no contradiction. Since Egypt was made up of numerous African groups that spoke different languages Egypt was a Pan-African civilization.
pan-a combining form meaning “all,” occurring originally in loanwords from Greek ( panacea; panoply ), but now used freely as a general formative ( panleukopenia; panorama; pantelegraph; pantheism; pantonality ), and especially in terms, formed at will, implying the union of all branches of a group ( Pan-Christian; Panhellenic; Pan-Slavism ). The hyphen and the second capital tend with longer use to be lost, unless they are retained in order to set off clearly the component parts.
quote:You are funny. Your claim of diversity is that the the 'white Berbers' are native to Africa, with 'dark' skin Africans in the South. This is contrary to my thesis that 'white' Africans came to Africa as the people of the Sea and Vandals.
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
You perpetuate this myth by calling the Upper Egyptians darker than the Lower Egyptians.
^^"Darker" simply means a skin color gradient from
the hotter tropical zones to cooler Medit climates.
That does not at all signify any different "race"
at all. It has nothing to do with any "white" Berbers
and it does not at all mean that many northern Egyptians
did not have darker skin either. In fact I ALSO have
been noting northerners' tropical proportions for years.
Your claim is bogus. Over several years I have made
in plain that Africans have the highest skin color
diversity.
They can have light brown skin or jet black skin.
Makes no difference. They are still indigenous tropical Africans.
If anything my highlighting darker skin is precisely
to debunk would be race mongers on "white Berbers" etc..
I am doing the exact opposite of what you claim.
So I don't know where you come up with the bullshiit
about "perpetrating"... If anything it is you following
a Eurocentric race model that plays into their hands
and downplays the diversity of the African peoples.
quote:You imply that the color of African people is depended on climate. This is a Eurocentric view of African people. I am Afro-American and I know from my family members and my own children that they can be born in a variety of hues without the climatic intervention you claim in your comments.
"Darker" simply means a skin color gradient from
the hotter tropical zones to cooler Medit climates.
quote:Where in Cruciani 2010 did the author claim he found ancient Egyptian DNA indicating that they carried R-V88?
As for Egyptian and the Chadic languages, they share
some features as scholars note:
"The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. "
--Cruciani 2010
quote:Use of the terms ‘possible’ , ‘could be located’, and ‘suggest’ imply the statement is speculation.
"It is possible from this overview of the data to conclude that the limited conceptual vocabulary shared by the ancestors of contemporary Chadic-speakers (therefore also contemporary Cushitic-speakers), contemporary Nilotic-speakers and Ancient Egyptian-speakers suggests that the earliest speakers of the Egyptian language could be located to the south of Upper Egypt (Diakonoff 1998) or, earlier, in the Sahara (Wendorf 2004), where Takács (1999, 47) suggests their ‘long co-existence’ can be found."
--Anselin 2009
quote:What does East Africa, have to do with Egypt?
"The observation that the Chadic group reveals some affinities to East Africans is extremely surprising giving the present-day geographical distance (around 2000 km) between them. These observations complement recent linguistic and archaeological findings, which consider the Chadic branch in the Afro-Asiatic phylum to be of eastern origin."
--Cerny 2007
quote:This paper is frequently cited as an attack on the work of Diop, please cite the Chadic examples used by Schuh proving a link between Chadic and Egyptian.
Other commonalities that Chadic languages share with Egyptian are detailed in Russell G. Schuh, "The Use and Misuse of
language in the study of African history" (1997), in: Ufahamu 25(1):36-81
quote:You known perfectly well, I am talking about your preoccupation with ‘dark’ and ‘light’ skinned Egyptians like the Eurocentric scholars you mimic. As long as you accept 'white' Berbers as native to Egypt you will never breakout of the Eurocentric box you have placed your ideas about ancient Egypt in.
And you still have not answered how things like divine kingship, which existed before the Egyptian state would be "untenable."
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Man from Ghana,
Originally posted by the lioness,:
what is your comment on the skin tones in the above pictures?
Also if African Americans are Pan African it doesn't mean that each region we came from was pan African itself
