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I have read that some Historians believe that Queen Hatshepsut was the princess that drew Moses out of the river and that Thutmoses III was the actual Pharoah of the Exodus. After doing a little research I realized that this could very well be true. Anyone come across any hardcore evidence?
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No. This is not based on any facts. Most talk about moses being related to some figure from Egypt is mostly speculation, as there is no hard evidence that Moses actually existed.
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Well Thutmoses III had a son Websenu that died mysteriously at the age of 9. Some say it was the plague. Also Thutmoses III went about defacing everything with the face of Hatshepsut and Senumut. Some findings I've came across state that Moses went under the name Semunet. Another thing to note is that some believe Moses' name puts him in that time frame. The hebrews cut off the first part of his name to show he was cut off from Egyptian gods. (Thut-Moses Ra- Moses) Another interesting thing I came across is an unfinished statue in Deir el Bahri of a woman holding a child. The architect just picked up and left so to speak. Tomb 353 was also an unfinished tomb that was built as a burial chamber for Thutmoses II however no burial was found. Just below this tomb there were the bodies of Hatnofer and Ramoses. Said to be Moses parents which were given an Egyptian burial with appropiate egyptian names. The body of the male appears to been brought there after. According to the bible Moses father died years before his mother. Also a couple of generations after Akhenaten changes egypts belief system to monotheism. Some state is was the impression made by Moses and the plagues that made an impact. I'm still in the process of collecting data, so it's not really a conclusion yet. I'm trying to get a better understanding of tomb inscriptions. But I thouht I'd post anyway to see the kind of reaction I would get.
And your right Doug M. Moses was not related to any Egyptian figure he was a foriegner adopted into a royal family. I believe the evidence is right there to prove he existed. We just found the tomb of the greatest queen in Egyptian history the other day. So anything is possible at this point;-)
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Another thing is that Thutmoses III is considered to have conquered Nubia. The bible states that Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman. "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman" (Num. 12.1). Josephus the Jewish historian points out that the Ethiopian kings' daughter Tharbis fell in love with the valiant general Moses. He agreed to marry her to create an alliance with the great Nubian nation. She bore a son. {And this union is said to have produced the great Queen of Sa'ba generations later that also bore a son to king Solomon Menelik I.} Some beleive Moses was the general and conquerer and cheif architect of Deir al bahir and after he fled Thutmoses III defaced everything with Moses' name on it and took credit for his work and victories as a way to insult him.
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There has been no scientific evidence found yet for the existence of Moses. Most often the allegations of Moses being related, meaning same as or physically in contact with, to some Egyptian figure is mostly speculation. Most of the alleged links are based on interpretation of Egyptian evidence that is ambiguous at best. However, there is no doubt that there were many groups from the area of modern day Israel who were in contact with Egypt in some way or form. That in itself does not provide the evidence as to if an when an actual Moses existed and what time frame of Egyptian history this occurred.
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quote:Originally posted by Sekhmet225: Well Thutmoses III had a son Websenu that died mysteriously at the age of 9. Some say it was the plague. Also Thutmoses III went about defacing everything with the face of Hatshepsut and Senumut. Some findings I've came across state that Moses went under the name Semunet. Another thing to note is that some believe Moses' name puts him in that time frame. The hebrews cut off the first part of his name to show he was cut off from Egyptian gods. (Thut-Moses Ra- Moses) Another interesting thing I came across is an unfinished statue in Deir el Bahri of a woman holding a child. The architect just picked up and left so to speak. Tomb 353 was also an unfinished tomb that was built as a burial chamber for Thutmoses II however no burial was found. Just below this tomb there were the bodies of Hatnofer and Ramoses. Said to be Moses parents which were given an Egyptian burial with appropiate egyptian names. The body of the male appears to been brought there after. According to the bible Moses father died years before his mother. Also a couple of generations after Akhenaten changes egypts belief system to monotheism. Some state is was the impression made by Moses and the plagues that made an impact. I'm still in the process of collecting data, so it's not really a conclusion yet. I'm trying to get a better understanding of tomb inscriptions. But I thouht I'd post anyway to see the kind of reaction I would get.
And your right Doug M. Moses was not related to any Egyptian figure he was a foriegner adopted into a royal family. I believe the evidence is right there to prove he existed. We just found the tomb of the greatest queen in Egyptian history the other day. So anything is possible at this point;-)
The problem is alot of the stuff you call "evidence" is circumstantial at best. Many pharoahs in many dynasties had sons who died in childhood as did many parents in the ancient world since child mortality was high in those days. 'Mose' in the Egyptian language simply meant 'son of' and of course there were many pharaohs with that name or title as well. Also, Senenmut was an official and probably lover of the female pharaoh Hatshepsut, so I don't know how this fits in at all with Biblical texts!
quote:Another thing is that Thutmoses III is considered to have conquered Nubia. The bible states that Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman. "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman" (Num. 12.1). Josephus the Jewish historian points out that the Ethiopian kings' daughter Tharbis fell in love with the valiant general Moses. He agreed to marry her to create an alliance with the great Nubian nation. She bore a son. {And this union is said to have produced the great Queen of Sa'ba generations later that also bore a son to king Solomon Menelik I.} Some beleive Moses was the general and conquerer and cheif architect of Deir al bahir and after he fled Thutmoses III defaced everything with Moses' name on it and took credit for his work and victories as a way to insult him.
Moses's wife was of the Midianites, an Asiatic nomad people inhabiting the Levant to the Sinai and probably eastern Delta. 'Ethiopian' is the Greek word for black person and was the Greek translation from the original Hebrew texts for 'kushi' which means black in their also. But Egyptians were also black and apparently so were some Asiatic folks like the Midianites. In fact the Bible says Moses married his wife Zipporah from a Midianite tribe from the east not a 'Nubian' people from the south.
Apparently, alot of your so-called evidence even conflicts with the Bible. Posts: 26244 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Moses's wife was of the Midianites, an Asiatic nomad people inhabiting the Levant to the Sinai and probably eastern Delta. 'Ethiopian' is the Greek word for black person and was the Greek translation from the original Hebrew texts for 'kushi' which means black in their also. But Egyptians were also black and apparently so were some Asiatic folks like the Midianites. In fact the Bible says Moses married his wife Zipporah from a Midianite tribe from the east not a 'Nubian' people from the south.
Apparently, alot of your so-called evidence even conflicts with the Bible. [/QB][/QUOTE] Hmm...good point but the Midianites were of the same people as the Hebrews. The Midianites were the descendats of Abraham's son Midian with a concubine Keturah after Sarahs death. I don't think Aaron and Miriam were referring to Zipporah.
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quote:I have read that some Historians believe that Queen Hatshepsut was the princess that drew Moses out of the river.
The drawing of Moses from the river is religious myth.
Virtually no historian asserts such myth as and actual historical event.
Jewish scholar Sigmund Freud claimed that Hebrew Moses is fictitous and based on Kemetian monarch and religious revolutionary Akhenaten.
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quote:Originally posted by Sekhmet225: Hmm...good point but the Midianites were of the same people as the Hebrews. The Midianites were the descendats of Abraham's son Midian with a concubine Keturah after Sarahs death. I don't think Aaron and Miriam were referring to Zipporah.
Incorrect. The Midianites were related to the Hebrews yes but definitely not the same since the Hebrews were said to be descended from Abraham's son Isaac by Sarah, while the Midianites were descended as you say from Abraham's son Midian by Keturah. It is really not specified where Keturah's origins are, but some suggest Egypt perhaps in association with the Midianite's dark complexion.
If Aaron and Miriam weren't referring to Zipporah, then who else were they referring to?? Moses had but one wife, and that was Zipporah. You cite the passage in the Bible that states "Indeed he had married an Ethiopian", but again you seem to forget that this is translation from the original Hebrew script. The original Hebrew script states that Moses married a kushi, which means black person. When the Bible was translated into the Greek, of course the word became 'Aethiopian'. But again that was because many Midianites were indeed black or dark-skinned.
You must remember that Biblical stories especially in regards to origins or geneologies of entire peoples should not be taken literally but metaphorically speaking. Through historical documents as well as archaeology it is known that the Midianites were a Semitic speaking peoples who originated from farther south in Arabia, so their dark even black complexions are really not that surprising.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: The drawing of Moses from the river is religious myth.
Virtually no historian asserts such myth as and actual historical event.
Jewish scholar Sigmund Freud claimed that Hebrew Moses is fictitous and based on Kemetian monarch and religious revolutionary Akhenaten.
True. Though do you not think it possible the story may be based on some event regarding an Egyptian royal woman adopting a foreign child?
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Kushi does not simply mean a black person. Kushi means a person as black skinned as someone from Kush. Shahhar means black and is applied to both Shem and HHam by no less an athority than Ribbi Eli`ezer.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Remember Qetura was Egyptian, making Midyan just as related to Egypt as to the Hebrews.
Just curious, but exactly which texts specifically identify Qetura's origins. I thought only texts pertaining to certain Jewish sects did so, while the more mainstream Torah did not. Of course, we know Hagar was an Egyptian concubine.
quote:Kushi does not simply mean a black person. Kushi means a person as black skinned as someone from Kush. Shahhar means black and is applied to both Shem and HHam by no less an athority than Ribbi Eli`ezer.
Thanks for the correction. I only know that 'Ethiopian' is the Greek translation of what the original Hebrew texts says, but I don't know what exactly that word was. Was is kushi or shahhar?
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Qetura and Hagar are one and the same person according to most commentators, however there is one midrash stating that Qetura was from Yapheth (blessed white all over) so that Abraham would have progeny from all three major family lineages (of course how one begets Kushi children on a Yapheti mother is something the midrash author didn't conceive -- ouch).
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Was Shem a black man like Ham? I though he was the father of the people of Asia, while whites come from Japheth. Where do people of Asian descent come from then? Takruri, didn't you post a scripture that described Shem as a black man like Ham?
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Qetura and Hagar are one and the same person according to most commentators, however there is one midrash stating that Qetura was from Yapheth (blessed white all over) so that Abraham would have progeny from all three major family lineages (of course how one begets Kushi children on a Yapheti mother is something the midrash author didn't conceive -- ouch).
Yes I know that in many midrash Qetura is identified as Hagar, but I have heard that in some other versions, I believe particularly in Samaritan texts, she is a different Egyptian woman. In fact I recall one version that stated she was probably Hagar's sister.
quote: I need a precise text to see what word was used whether it was shahhar or kushi. I don't know what specific passage you're looking at.
You can find a Hebrew-English Tanakh at the Mechon Mamre site.
I speak of the passage where it says Aaron and Miriam spoke out against Moses for marrying an "Ethiopian".
But I will try looking into that site.
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Was Shem a black man like Ham? I though he was the father of the people of Asia, while whites come from Japheth. Where do people of Asian descent come from then? Takruri, didn't you post a scripture that described Shem as a black man like Ham?
According to Ribbi Eli`ezer as per Takruri, Shem was described as 'shahhar' which was black. Other than that I don't know of any other texts that say he was.
Posts: 26244 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Per the Pirqe de Ribbi Eli`ezer: * Shem was blessed black and beautiful * Hham was blessed black like the raven * Yapheth was blessed entirely white/white all over
Remember this is ancient Hebrew theological anthropology. Don't expect to find peoples unknown to them in their Table of Nations. Do expect to find peoples all over the world announcing themselves as descendants from one of those family heads once they learn of or adopt some variety of any of the "big three" so-called Abrahamic faiths.
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Was Shem a black man like Ham? I though he was the father of the people of Asia, while whites come from Japheth. Where do people of Asian descent come from then? Takruri, didn't you post a scripture that described Shem as a black man like Ham?
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In the Book of Genesis, Keturah or Ketura (Hebrew: קְטוּרָה, Standard Qətura Tiberian Qəṭūrāh ; "Incense") is the woman whom Abraham marries after the death of Sarah. She bears him six sons, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.
She is styled "Abraham's concubine" (1 Chr. 1:32). Abraham married her probably after Sarah's death (Gen. 25:1-6). He also sent the sons he had by Keturah to live in the east far from his son Isaac. Rabbinic lore (midrash) holds that Keturah is identical with Hagar.
Keturah is also the namesake of the kibbutz Ketura.
I don't have a Bible around (it's back home), but I thought I remember reading (it's been years since my days in Sunday school) that Keturah was a different woman from Hagar.
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Abraham sent Hagar, the rocky one, away in obedience to the wishes of Sarah his primary wife. In her absense from Abraham's household, Hagar's character changed and she became as sweet as incense. Upon Sarah's passing Abraham returned to his secondary wife. Those who can read the Hebrew can see the verb indicates a continuing not a new relationship.
Christian bible studies are totally irrelevant to the text as Christians did not author the text.
Wiki does not hold the Wisdom of Israel nor is Wiki the Sages of Israel. I trust what the Sages of Israel have to say about Hebrew literature over what any other source has to say about it since they are responsible for safegaurding and transmitting the cultural heritage intact and uncorrupted.
If you want ot trust Wiki over, say, the records ancient Egyptian savants left to us, then go ahead. Know however, your choice would be as unwise in that instance as it unwise in this instance.
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^ Good point. That is why I am very much interested in reading the original untranslated texts.
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