Forensic experts believe they have identified the skeleton of the queen’s younger sister, murdered over 2,000 years ago
by Daniel Foggo
ARCHEOLOGISTS and forensic experts believe they have identified the skeleton of Cleopatra’s younger sister, murdered more than 2,000 years ago on the orders of the Egyptian queen.
The remains of Princess Arsinöe, put to death in 41BC on the orders of Cleopatra and her Roman lover Mark Antony to eliminate her as a rival, are the first relics of the Ptolemaic dynasty to be identified.
The breakthrough, by an Austrian team, has provided pointers to Cleopatra’s true ethnicity. Scholars have long debated whether she was Greek or Macedonian like her ancestor the original Ptolemy, a Macedonian general who was made ruler of Egypt by Alexander the Great, or whether she was north African.
Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives.
The results vindicate the theories of Hilke Thür of the Austrian Academy of Sciences, who has long claimed that the skeleton was Arsinöe. She described the discovery of Arsinöe’s ethnicity as “a real sensation which leads to a new insight on Cleopatra’s family”.
Fellow experts are now convinced. Günther Hölbl, an authority on the Ptolemies, said the identification of the skeleton was “a great discovery”.
The forensic evidence was obtained by a team working under the auspices of the Austrian Archeological Institute, which is set to detail its findings at an anthropological convention in the United States later this month.
The story of the discovery will also be the subject of a tele-vision documentary, Cleopatra: Portrait of a Killer, to be shown on BBC1 at 9pm next Monday.
The institute’s breakthrough came about after it set out to examine Thür’s belief that an octagonal tomb in the remains of the Roman city of Ephesus contained the body of Arsinöe.
According to Roman texts the city, in what is now Turkey, is where Arsinöe was banished after being defeated in a power struggle against Cleopatra and her then lover, Julius Caesar.
Arsinöe was said to have been murdered after Cleopatra, now with Mark Antony following Caesar’s death, ordered the Roman general to have her younger sibling killed to prevent any future attempts on the Egyptian throne.
The distinctive tomb was first opened in 1926 by archeologists who found a sarcophagus inside containing a skeleton. They removed the skull, which was examined and measured; but it was lost in the upheaval of the second world war.
In the early 1990s Thür reentered the tomb and found the headless skeleton, which she believed to be of a young woman. Clues, such as the unusual octagonal shape of the tomb, which echoed that of the lighthouse of Alexandria with which Arsinöe was associated, convinced Thür the body was that of Cleopatra’s sister. Her theory was considered credible by many historians, and in an attempt to resolve the issue the Austrian Archeological Institute asked the Medical University of Vienna to appoint a specialist to examine the remains.
Fabian Kanz, an anthropologist, was sceptical when he began this task two years ago. “We tried to exclude her from being Arsinöe,” he said. “We used all the methods we have to find anything that can say, ‘Okay, this can’t be Arsinöe because of this and this’.”
After using carbon dating, which dated the skeleton from 200BC-20BC, Kanz, who had examined more than 500 other skeletons taken from the ruins of Ephesus, found Thür’s theory gained credibility.
He said he was certain the bones were female and placed the age of the woman at 15-18. Although Arsinöe’s date of birth is not known, she was certainly younger than Cleopatra, who was about 27 at the time of her sister’s demise.
The lack of any sign of illness or malnutrition also indicated a sudden death, said Kanz. Evidence of the skeleton’s north African ethnicity provided the final clue.
Caroline Wilkinson, a forensic anthropologist, reconstructed the missing skull based on measurements taken in the 1920s. Using computer technology it was possible to create a facial impression of what Arsinöe might have looked like.
“It has got this long head shape,” said Wilkinson. “That’s something you see quite frequently in ancient Egyptians and black Africans. It could suggest a mixture of ancestry.”
quote:The breakthrough, by an Austrian team, has provided pointers to Cleopatra’s true ethnicity. Scholars have long debated whether she was Greek or Macedonian like her ancestor the original Ptolemy, a Macedonian general who was made ruler of Egypt by Alexander the Great, or whether she was north African.
Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives.
...
“It has got this long head shape,” said Wilkinson. “That’s something you see quite frequently in ancient Egyptians and black Africans. It could suggest a mixture of ancestry.”
Spoken like ancient Egyptians and black Africans were two mutually exclusive things, yet their description [last bit] says otherwise. Hopefully, Arsineo looked nothing like some of the images we've seen of Cleopatra on coins.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Keep in mind subjective descriptions of skull shape prove nothing.
At worst, a "computer" twice attributes a large number of skulls from the same region (once, with Spanish crania and, once with skulls of an ancient indigenous Sudanese group) to populations, spanning continants, they couldn't possibly have been from.
At best, one Brace study found similarities between Neolithic and Bronze Age ( <-- around the time of ancient Greece) South Eastern European skulls and those of Niger-Congo speakers, that were not found between some Egyptian samples and the latter. Meaning, even with "black african" features, Cleo could have still been Greek or even possibly Macedonian.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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Forensic tools like that of FORDISC are becoming something of an archaic concept, with blatant limitations as noted time and again, notwithstanding persistence of holding onto old outdated concepts. DNA sequencing has become possibly the best thing that has happened to the field of forensics. It's the way to go, for greater precision into discerning a suspect's or victim's ancestry than craniometry.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Forensic tools like that of FORDISC are becoming something of an archaic concept, with blatant limitations as noted time and again, notwithstanding persistence of holding onto old outdated concepts. DNA sequencing has become possibly the best thing that has happened to the field of forensics. It's the way to go, for greater precision into discerning a suspect's or victim's ancestry than craniometry.
Yes, though, it would be easier if testing ancients were possible. Not that we don't already know much as far as populations are concerned.
Although Macedonia is distinct we can't forget their ties to Greece. So from this i imagine the famous Cleopatra may have had some Egyptian or some Greek in her.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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I hope this doesn't go the way of the "Nefertiti discovery." When someone as important as Cleopatra or even her blood sister is claimed as Black or African (by a DNA study of some sort), there is usually an attempt to explain it away afterwards. Or either the term African will be dropped and replaced with something else less controversial like "Mediterrean."
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: "ancient egyptians and black africans"
a little reality check for you guys
Semantics. Even at the very least, according to your literalist interpretation of what exactly that means, it would suggest that she simply chose not to impose a label on the ancient populations while still comparing them to modern "Black Africans", or that she avoids classification of the former due to noted controversies, yet alludes to the fact that they would be inclusive as they share exclusive traits, hence, are relatives of the same African reality. This is evident since there was no attribution of "admixture" between so-called ancient Egyptian and "Black African" but rather the assumption was on the part of an admixture between African and Macedonian. Your desperation is duly noted though.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives.
^^This is what A.P. is going around paraphrasing.
This is similar to the whole Susan Anton thing where the journalistic interpretation of what the anthropologists find or even say, isn't at all reflective. Guys like A.P. jump at senseless dichotomies like that, even in the face of blatant contradiction, as has been noted..
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: the Greeks and Macadonians were the same people.
Alack and alas...
Established research says otherwise. Greeks are actually closer to those "darker" types south of the Sahara, relatively speaking, than your Macedonians.
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks A. Arnaiz-Villena, K. Dimitroski, A. Pacho, J. Moscoso, E. Gómez-Casado, et. al Tissue Antigens (2001) Volume 57, Issue 2 , Pages118 - 127
From abstract: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt." Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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This is what the Times article pictures Arsinoe to look like via forensic reconstruction. QUOTE:
"Caroline Wilkinson, a forensic anthropologist, reconstructed the missing skull based on measurements taken in the 1920s. Using computer technology it was possible to create a facial impression of what Arsinöe might have looked like.
posted
Honestly, close scrutiny suggests that this doesn't necessarily reveal anything about Cleopatra (they had different mothers). The only valuable contribution here is the further implication of ancient Egyptians with the dominant African population. The evidence as we all know isn't lacking, it's the consensus and we may be getting closer to one that more readily reflects the obvious.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Here's the real "reality check" you should try yourself. It's a good thing:
“It has got this long head shape,” said Wilkinson. “That’s something you see quite frequently in ancient Egyptians and black Africans.”
This means notwithstanding the author's *politics*, i.e. the play of words, her remark [as noted above, from biological data done by experts] could not escape the conclusion that there is no such thing as ancient Egyptians being mutually exclusive with "black Africans".
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Honestly, close scrutiny suggests that this doesn't necessarily reveal anything about Cleopatra (they had different mothers). The only valuable contribution here is the further implication of ancient Egyptians with the dominant African population. The evidence as we all know isn't lacking, it's the consensus and we may be getting closer to one that more readily reflects the obvious.
Could be, but the BBC article posted by Evergreen states that Cleo's mother was African, based on this find about her sister. Did Cleo and Arsinoe have different mothers? I havent come across anything yet to say the mothers were different.. The BBC article seems to be saying that they had the same mother.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/also_in_the_news/7945333.stm
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: This is what the Times article pictures Arsinoe to look like via forensic reconstruction. QUOTE:
"Caroline Wilkinson, a forensic anthropologist, reconstructed the missing skull based on measurements taken in the 1920s. Using computer technology it was possible to create a facial impression of what Arsinöe might have looked like.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: Could be, but the BBC article posted by Evergreen states that Cleo's mother was African, based on this find about her sister. Did Cleo and Arsinoe have different mothers? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/also_in_the_news/7945333.stm
It says it in the article posted in this thread:
"Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives. "
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Even if they had different mothers, this does not rule out the possibility of both having been African "brides", unless specifically indicated so, and how so.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Quite so. The fact that the skull's features were distinctive enough, so distinctive that the forensic anthropologist using old style race classifications can call them African shows that the possibility is quite credible. Under the "Caucasoid Egypt" theory that skull is a virtual impossibility- white Greek and Asiatic- should yield something "Caucasian."
But yet here we have it- a conservative old school anthropologist, using conservative old school categories, finds clear evidence of what you have elsewhere called tropical African variant.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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The fact is, the history belongs to us southern Egyptians, northern Sudanese, Somalis, Ethiopians and so forth, the history does NOT belong to anyone else.
Concern yourself with your celtic and germanic anglo-saxon ancestors.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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sudaniy wrote: -------------------------- The fact is, the history belongs to us southern Egyptians, northern Sudanese, Somalis, Ethiopians and so forth, the history does NOT belong to anyone else. --------------------------
What does Ethiopia and Somalia have to do with Ancient Egypt? You need to stop living in a make believe fantasy world. Please fix your country, whichever of the two it is, so you don't have play make believe on internet forums for self-esteem.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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they have nothing to do with ancient egyptians. You would have to go back 50,0000 years before any of thee people would have a common ancestor with egyptians. again, her sidister, not her, is part Greek, part ancient egyptian and part black african.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by argyle104: What does Ethiopia and Somalia have to do with Ancient Egypt? You need to stop living in a make believe fantasy world. Please fix your country, whichever of the two it is, so you don't have play make believe on internet forums for self-esteem.
I think Sudaniya is from northern Sudan and not from either Somalia and Ethiopia, so get your facts straight.
And as for your question, Ancient Egyptians belonged to the NE african ethnicity and so are Somalis and Ethiopians, nuff said.
Remember AE equelled Upper Egypt and Upper Egypt is more or else a Horn african region.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: they have nothing to do with ancient egyptians. You would have to go back 50,0000 years before any of thee people would have a common ancestor with egyptians. again, her sidister, not her, is part Greek, part ancient egyptian and part black african.
Forget Ancient egyptians, Ethiopians and Somalis are more related to southern Ancient Greeks than your Germanic ass is, as Sudaniya told you stick to the vikings and celts.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Stop with all the separation nonsense you weirdos, the only one in here who is delusional is American Patriot with his 50,000 years common ancestry nonsense. His knowledge of the Pn2 clade is obviously lacking. Either way you cut it, AEs had absolutely nothing whatsoever, I mean NOTHING to do with white Nordic anglo-saxons... They are interlopers in the field of African studies. I can sit up here and tell Yonis that his Somalid obsession is misguided but I can't deny him his connection to Africa as an African. Patriot on the otherhand, has no business telling anybody who is closely related to whom as his ancestors are the biggest outliners in this discussion.
A.P. wrote:
is part Greek, part ancient egyptian and part black african.
None of the anthropologists gave that description, this is a flawed interpretation by some naive journalist and even they didn't use the words you do. They quoted them as implying that "Ancient Egyptian and Black African" are not mutually exclusive (as further noted by the lack of physical distinction they made between them and further implied in the audio clip) just like your Macedonian and Greek. You are so illogical and hold on to any discrepancy in flawed wording that you may find. You are a deceptive cherry-picking lunatic A.P... Your logic can't hold up to scrutiny.
^Listen to the audio from the actual head of the archeological team. He says that she was "African Greek" (direct quote).. Further demolishing your false dichotomy as Africans are treated as being mutually exclusive as Macadonians and Greeks were (since the Ptolemys were not Greek!).
quote: What does Ethiopia and Somalia have to do with Ancient Egypt? You need to stop living in a make believe fantasy world. Please fix your country, whichever of the two it is, so you don't have play make believe on internet forums for self-esteem.
I am not an Habash nor a Somali. The ancient Egyptians identified both Sudan and Punt/Somalia as their land of origin.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote: What does Ethiopia and Somalia have to do with Ancient Egypt? You need to stop living in a make believe fantasy world. Please fix your country, whichever of the two it is, so you don't have play make believe on internet forums for self-esteem.
I am not an Habash nor a Somali. The ancient Egyptians identified both Sudan and Punt/Somalia as their land of origin.
The exact location of Punt is unknown, but you are right it's the the Horn of africa and you are correct that they called this region ancestral land. They were very perceptive.
Don't mind argyle he always chases his tail.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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South Ancient Greeks are related to ethiopians .. . . .
which comes first the chicken or the egg.
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2:
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: they have nothing to do with ancient egyptians. You would have to go back 50,0000 years before any of thee people would have a common ancestor with egyptians. again, her sidister, not her, is part Greek, part ancient egyptian and part black african.
Forget Ancient egyptians, Ethiopians and Somalis are more related to southern Ancient Greeks than your Germanic ass is, as Sudaniya told you stick to the vikings and celts.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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There are no ancient Greeks related to Ethiopians xyy, there is no evidence to support that view.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Greeks carry E3b just like Ethiopians also alot of southern europe carry E3b also read this:
The network of the E-M78 chromosomes reveals a strong geographic structuring, since each of the clusters a, b, and g reaches high frequencies in only one of the regions analyzed. Cluster a ... is very common in the Balkans (with frequencies of 20%–32%), and its frequencies decline toward western Europe, 7.4% in Sicily, 7.0% in continental Italy, 4.3% in Corsica, 3.0% in France, 2.2% in Iberia and 1.1% in Sardinia, and northeastern (2.6%) Europe. In the Near East, this cluster is essentially limited to Turkey (3.4%). The relatively high frequency of DYS413 24/23 haplogroup E chromosomes in Greece suggests that cluster a of the E-M78 haplogroup is common in the Aegean area, too
Fulvio Cruciani, et al Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1014–1022, 2004
this is from Rasol:
1) Less than 50 percent of Greek paternal ancestry is of European origin [R1b + I], these lineages make up over 90% of much of Northern Europe.
2) Almost 25% of Greek paternal heritage is African, and nearly another 1/4 is SouthWest Asian. These lineages make up less than 10% of Northern European heritage.
3) Civilisation began in Nile Valley Africa, and Mesopotamian SouthWest Asia several thousand years prior to European civilisation, when Europeans finally developed a civilisation...it was in the Greek zone of Afro-Asian/European MIXTURE. During this time, there is NO civilistion in Northern Europe....therefore it is entirely insensible to attribute Greek civilisation to Nordic barbarians. Peoples who did not yet have civilisation. People whom the ancient Greeks themselves considered to be savages.
Now Patriot I have given you some facts about Greeks, Could you provide some facts that counter what I just posted?
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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See this is what I am talking about. Africans and Europeans have common ancestors, yet we let the color of our skin dictate how we see each other. Europeans are groomed to hate Africans and look down on them. Africans are told to Fear and blame Europeans for there problem.
This has to stop. We have to start anew. It's time we "bigup" the HUMAN RACE. We are so similar that it is just plain dumb to hate each other. We ALL have a common enemy, The Elite. It's time we work together to shape mankind in a better way. Ask yourself what can we accomplish by working together to stop our problems. We have seen what can happen through hate. We saw and "watched" the genocide of Jews, Rwandans, Cambodians. The Elite play on our differences and instigate violence by playing one side, against the other. It's the Fear Factor. People have to not be fearful of each other. We should learn about other ethnicites and find out how others live. Learning about what seperates us, will benefit the Future(children) and give them a chance to grow up with friends from ALL Ethnicites and realize that they can reach whatever there dream is. There is NOTHING that a ethnicity can't do. With proper guidance Children can grow up to be whatever they want to be. We see that differences are minute because Africans in Europe, and the US are leaders in education. This shows that stuff that racists hang on to like I.Q. scores is nonsense. Africans with proper guidance can be leaders in Education, and Europeans can be good at music and sports. The stereotypes have to go. I may not of worded this post good, but I hope the main point did not fly over peoples head. Unity is the Goal.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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It is no proof, you have told me no history. You do not know how it got there and ythus have no proof. You are, thus, making assumptions.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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It's proof to anyone with half a brain. Your stupid one liners are not going to save you read this:
E-M35 has been found in Africa, the Near East, and Europe -> where it is believed to have arrived in Neolithic times (Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000)
Now tell me again how greeks are not linked to Africans?
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:King wrote: See this is what I am talking about. Africans and Europeans have common ancestors
No, Africans and Europeans don't have common ancestors only some Europeans have common ancestors with africans. Your mother theresa approach is quite pathetic King, no need to clinge on to something that don't exist. American patriot is a WASP and these have no recent connection to Africa what so ever, they are on the complete opposite end.
AP needs to stick to the celts and vikings, right now he's surfing on exotic waters.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Doesn't matter where it is found King, that does not tell you anything. You have no proof the Greeks are linked to Africans.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Alright now you've got your 15 minutes of fame (goofy entertainment) move on, your next 15 minutes is schedueled next week.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Yonis2, The existence of a genetic marker is NOT history, it tells you nothing historical. When you learn how to use data you might make some progress.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Nope but history tells us that the greeks new more about Horn of Africa than they did 90% of Europe, read or google "Periplus of the Erythraean Sea", you even find ancient stelas inscripted in ancient greek in Ethiopia.
They knew nothing or showed any interest of the barbarian lands in northern Europe.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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History does not tell you that Yonis. You are making another assumption. Only a complete moron would try to detach Greece from the rest of Europe. Classical civilization spread all over Europe and is the foundation of European civilization. Contending otherwise is beyond absurd.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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I am not "Mother Theresa". How I view things, is how it should be. It's people like patriot and you who bring down what really could be accomplished. You speak of Europeans with African Ancestors as if that somehow makes it okay to show them respect. What about the rest of the Europeans? They deserve the same respect. We have all kinds of Hating, why not try to respect your opponent instead of always slinging mud.
Africans and Europeans, Both need to grow up. We are more alike then we are different. It is because of people like you we now have people running around saying foolishness like "Somalid" this "Negrid" that. Just another way to hate.
Face reality, The world is getting smaller sooner(Hope) rather then later we are going to have to recognize that we belong to ONE RACE not somalid or Negrid, or Europid.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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How much facts are you going to dismiss with your one liners? Read and Learn
Journal of Human Evolution (1972) 1, 307 - 313 "...one can identify NEGROID traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972 - The People of Lerna: Analysis of a Prehistoric Aegean Population), probably FROM NUBIA.
Oh look, a map showing benin sicklecell in Europe. Even more links to Africa. Can you refute this.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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respect? What does that have to do with any of this? The facts you are giving me are fine King. The problem is they have nothing to do with the history of greece nor do they prove that the greeks had an any african ancestors.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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So far I have come with nothing but FACTS, You have your one liners. You have not shown ANYTHING that even looks like facts.
The Facts and I repeat state:
one can identify NEGROID traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and MACEDONIAN first farmers (Angel, 1972 - The People of Lerna: Analysis of a Prehistoric Aegean Population), probably FROM NUBIA.
Now read this:
The People of Lerna : Analysis of a Prehistoric Aegean Population
Review of Lerna, a preclassical site in the Argolid, results of excavations conducted by the American School of Classical Studies at Athens. Vol. I. The Fauna by Nils-Gustaf Gejvall. Field lists of skeletal material, 1935-1958 (includes lists of material from Agora, Corinth, Mycenae, Argos, Lerna, Eleusis, Pylos....
In classical Greece, Lerna was a region of springs and a former lake near the east coast of the Peloponnesus, south of Argos. It is most famous as the lair of the Lernaean Hydra, the chthonic many-headed water snake, a creature of great antiquity when Heracles killed it, as the second of his labors.
Now please post your facts, that counter this.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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OK King...but again your facts tell us nothing about the history of greece. Nothing you said CONNECTS any black africans to greeks in terms of history. I am questioning the conclusions you are drawing BASED on the information you are offering. They found skeletans, so what, that proves nothing. That data could mean any number of a thousand things King, of which we know nothing.
What you are doing is trying to tell me what a house looks like based on one nail. You just do not have anything.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Patriot, I respect every person I debate, You not posting ANY facts, makes it hard for me to respect you. If you want to be taken seriously post something other then your overused one liners. Now this is a STUDY on Greeks Read and Learn:
Read this Patriot:
Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans
Summary:
Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa (Burkina-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles is self-explanatory. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf
This debate is completly onesided. Post some FACTS or be ignored.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:AmericanPatriot wrote: Classical civilization spread all over Europe and is the foundation of European civilization. Contending otherwise is beyond absurd
Classical civilization did not "spread all over europe", the ideas were adopted recently. If i today adopt the ideas of classical chinese does that mean i was always connected to the chinese?
The fact is greeks had more connections with coastal africans than they ever were with central/northern europeans, these were dismissed as "barbarians", their own words.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Ik am taken seriously every day of my life King and I cannot teach you historical method if you refuse to learn.
King, You are very careless for someone who claims to be interested in this stuff. Go back and very carefully read your last post. Again, there is NO historical connection shown here between any Africans anbd ancient greeks.
"Might have occured" "time was ancient and uncertain and might be related to displaced Egyptians"
might, might , might
Your entire post makes my point. There is not ONE OUNCE of history in that post, not a drop.
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