quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

^^^Aye...I may be wrong but...Isn't the Tuareg language the oldest of the Berber languages?


So doesn't that alone erases notion to associate them with early Maghreb people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

^^^Aye...I may be wrong but...Isn't the Tuareg language the oldest of the Berber languages?


So doesn't that alone erases notion to associate them with early Maghreb people?

---

The oldest in what way? As I can recall, Tuareg is the oldest written Berber language with Tifinagh being the only Berber script. As far as it being the oldest spoken language, I haven't read or heard of any data for that claim.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
This is your moment to shine, i.e. those who claim that the Siwa were not original "Berber" (aka Tamazight) speakers, but supposedly learned this from some outside group.

First question is: What language did the Siwa speak before their Tamazight dialect?

---

Is it possible the Siwa where the first berbers?

________________________________

On Siwi language:

- an article that gets referenced sometimes:

Vycichl, Werner. 1991.
"Jlan n Isiwan: Sketch of the Berber Language of the Oasis of Siwa (Egypt)"

^^^ It may be unpublished. I see references to more references to it but can't find the full text




^^ Highest frequencies:

M1
L3
U ( Not U6)
HV0
K


_________________________________________________

DNATribes 2009 digest AFRICA









^^^
On a different note I was looking over this and wondering why Siwa has a large West African contribution whereas other nearby regions, the rest of Egypt, Sudan Somalia apparently do not ??
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=X_cac38pfmAC&pg=PT138&lpg=PT138&dq=haplog

Becoming Eloquent: advances in the emergence of language, human cognition ...
edited by F. d' Errico, Jean Marie Hombert







 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
To the fuckhead above (swenet), who is apparently having difficulty understanding the intro post: There's a preliminary question awaiting an answer.

Either directly post a relevant answer--with substantiation, or just muzzle your mouth and stay scarse--essentially as a tacit realization that you like to seize upon just about any random thing that pops in your airhead as a material for what amounts to a fairy story-telling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
As far as I know Siwa was never connected to or populated by archaic, OK, MK and NK dynastic Egyptians, unlike some of the other oases that were integrated into the Egyptian economies by the Mentuhoteps in the Middle Kingdom. Siwans would very likely be considered Libyans by Egyptians, rather than one of their own, but, interestingly, their genome is more Egypto Nubian-like than Berber-like. They also have Chadic elements in their genome, which might have something to do with the Berber population they've inherited their language from.

Using the data in the OP to inform us about views towards homosexuality in Ancient Egypt is tempting, but, like I said, the two populations were probably isolated from each other. It might also be the case that the archaeologically attested prehistoric populations in Siwa were a different population from the current inhabitants, but whatever the origin of the former, morphometrics suggest they were close to pre-dynastic Egyptians. [/qb]

---

wiki says
" Although the oasis is known to have been settled since at least the 10th millennium BC, the earliest evidence of connection with ancient Egypt is the 26th Dynasty, when a necropolis was established"

there is a big gap between 10 millenium and the 26th dynasty.
Is there any evidence of a population living there bewteen these two dates? [/qb]

---

There are at least three substrata in Siwa Berbers. You have the NRY B group, along with specific mtDNA L0, L3 and L4 subclades, which would have been shared with Egypto-Nubians. You have the NRY R-V88 group and mtDNA L3e subclades which are shared with Chadic speakers. There is also the small pocket change of NRY E-M81 and mtDNA U6, H1, which is shared with Berbers. Siwa M1, but also Siwa E-V6 was possibly introduced by Egyptian speakers, whom I suspect can be tentatively identified with the earliest Naqada semi-nomands, for various reasons.

When you put these genetic substrata in line with the 10th millenium bc date mentioned in the wiki article, only the first substratum I mentioned is old enough to comfortably date back to that period. I think its quite possible that this substratum is a relic of these prehistoric Siwans, especially if this prehistoric culture they're talking about shows continuation well after the 10th millenium bc, because that's when folks found themselves trapped in the oases and Nile Valley, and migration slowed down (due to aridification). Based on the fact that Siwa is the only remaining Northern African hotspot of R-v88, and due to the fact that the Chadic L3e subclades spread to the rest of Northern Africa during this period, I suspect that the Chadic genetic signature made its way in (into Siwa) right before aridification set in ~5.5kya, and the rest of this haplogroup made its way down to Cameroon. And then, after that, things would have stayed mostly the same, until much later, when the Berber elements entered the region, around the same time of late dynastic Egyptian contact with Siwa. Why? Because that's about how old the branch of Berber Siwa belongs to, is calculated to be. Like I said above, I believe this is also around the same time Berbers entered the el-Hayez oasis with their E-M81.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

Sorry I should have elaborated more. I heard people claim that the Tuareg people are thr oldest group of Berbers and carry the oldest genes and are thr ancestors of most Berbers(not all). Also that they are the oldest group(along the Fulani) that were found in the Sahara during the late Holocene.

So I assumed they spoke the oldest Berber language.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

You have to be off your ever loving rockers. Only in Explorer coo coo world is it procedure to call someone's views into question, not only with a preposterously stupid question that's impossible to answer with the data at hand (i.e., what language prehistoric Siwans spoke prior to the emergence of Berber languages), but is such retarded pseudo-scientific questioning used in the stead of proactive refutations of the observations I posted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

On a different note I was looking over this and wondering why Siwa has a large West African contribution whereas other nearby regions, the rest of Egypt, Sudan Somalia apparently do not ??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

This is the only posted stuff from among those who have posted here, outside of the thread author, that has anything remotely do with language. How sad!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
sorry, I could have made a separate thread on Siwa genetics. Here is some more pertinant information
wiki says:


A local manuscript mentions only seven families totaling 40 men living at the oasis in 1203. (current pop: 23,000 )

In the 12th century Al-Idrisi mentions it as being inhabited mainly by Berbers, with an Arab minority, while a century before Al-Bakri stated that only Berbers lived there. The Egyptian historian Al-Maqrizi travelled to Siwa in the 15th century and described how the language spoken there 'is similair to the language of the Zenata [11]'

__________________________________________________


http://www.academia.edu/1970805/Grammatical_Contact_in_the_Sahara_Arabic_Berber_and_Songhay_in_Tabelbala_and_Siwa

"Grammatical Contact In The Sahara". Retrieved 2012-0





 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
The idea that Awjila as the next geographically closer Tamazight dialect spoken in the region, but seemingly less related than the more west-oriented Sokna, must be suggestive of language "replacement" of the Siwa is more of that unsubstantiated gobbledygook talk that inspired to start up this discussion. Furthermore, it supposedly treats the Siwa as either mobile, or afflicted by mobility of others, while treating the Awjila as an immobile element in the region.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
[QB]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

You have to be off your ever loving rockers. Only in Explorer coo coo world is it procedure to call someone's views into question, not only with a preposterously stupid question that's impossible to answer with the data at hand (i.e., what language prehistoric Siwans spoke prior to the emergence of Berber languages), but is such retarded pseudo-scientific questioning used in the stead of proactive refutations of the observations I posted.

---

This fuckhead must think through its numb fat ass, because nothing gets wackier than confusing a linguistic-question for an irrelevant subject.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

You have to be off your ever loving rockers. Only in Explorer coo coo world is it procedure to call someone's views into question, not only with a preposterously stupid question that's impossible to answer with the data at hand (i.e., what language prehistoric Siwans spoke prior to the emergence of Berber languages), but is such retarded pseudo-scientific questioning used in the stead of proactive refutations of the observations I posted.

---

This fuckhead must think through its numb fat ass, because nothing gets wackier than confusing a linguistic-question for an irrelevant subject.

---

So, its a linguistic question.... and how does that fit in to what I said in the post you're replying to? Where did I call that question irrelevant?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:
There is a reason why you are so emotional about such a simple straightforward question, notwithstanding the pretense of confusion about the topic supposedly being "neither here nor there", something only an idiot would say about the topic, with a clearly stated goal, which none--especially you--has addressed, save for the two citations from lioness that remotely touch the topic; you are in fact a good example of loonies who engage in such gobbledygook talk noted above:

Siwans would very likely be considered Libyans by Egyptians, rather than one of their own, but, interestingly, their genome is more Egypto Nubian-like than Berber-like. They also have Chadic elements in their genome, which might have something to do with the Berber population they've inherited their language from. - swenet

If the intro-post question applies handily to anyone, there is no better candidate than you!

---

Interesting question, I am about to take a trip to the Siwa sometime and the end of this year. I will propose this question.


As for now, Libyco-Chadic is older than Berber-Chadic. And Chadic itself is older than Berber.


According to eEhnologue, Summer Institute of Linguistics.


http://archive.ethnologue.com/16/show_language.asp?code=siz




Dr. Chris Ehret,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHTTWomeWeM


Rogerblench,

http://rogerblench.info/Language/Afroasiatic/General/AALIST.pdf


Issues in the Historical Phonology Issues in the Historical Phonology of Chadic Languages of Chadic Languages H. Ekkehard Wolff Chair: African Languages & Linguistics Leipzig University
http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/conference/08_springschool/pdf/course_materials/Wolff_Historical_Phonology.pdf





 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:

Sorry I should have elaborated more. I heard people claim that the Tuareg people are the oldest group of Berbers and carry the oldest genes and are the ancestors of most Berbers(not all). Also that they are the oldest group(along the Fulani) that were found in the Sahara during the late Holocene.

So I assumed they spoke the oldest Berber language.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

Very conservatively, the ancestors of modern Tamazight speakers lay somewhere in the eastern Sahara only from about 8ky ago. Other sources have put it at even less than that.

Thus, Tamazight presence in western Africa could not have been any more than 5ky ago. In fact, one source estimated that their arrival in the western most end of coastal north Africa occurred around 2ky ago.

atDNA profiles reported for the Siwa vs. those of the Maghreb suggest a more basal substratum in the Siwan gene pool than the Maghreb counterparts. Perhaps this could be serving as a telltale sign that the Siwa gene pool is reflective of survival of a proto-Tamazight population; it could also, however, be suggestive of better preservation of an ancestral gene pool in the Siwa and/or the relative geographical isolation of the Siwa, when compared to the Maghrebi Tamazight/Tamazight-derived populations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



^^ Highest frequencies:

M1
L3
U ( Not U6)
HV0
K

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You sure are slow. I said ''the things you randomly broach'', meaning, the no-brainer that the topic being discussed here is a ''linguistic topic'', which I supposedly had ''confused for an irrelevant subject''. Running the risk that the answer to this question will be even more random than the aforementioned mumbo jumbo, explain:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Interesting question, I am about to take a trip to the Siwa sometime and the end of this year. I will propose this question.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Population and language are two different things that are often mutually exclusive. That said, no doubt the Tuareg do carry old genetic components, but they are not the only ones.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Interesting question, I am about to take a trip to the Siwa sometime and the end of this year. I will propose this question.

---

In doing so, be mindful of stories tinged with legends that serve more political or religious purpose than fact-accounting. This occurs more often than not in ethnic stories told to one generation by another.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You sure are slow. I said ''the things you randomly broach'', meaning, the no-brainer that the topic being discussed here is a ''linguistic topic'', which I supposedly had ''confused for an irrelevant subject''. Running the risk that the answer to this question will be even more random than the aforementioned mumbo jumbo, explain:

---

If I'm slow, then you must be frozen. To date, you are still stumped immeasurably by a simple opening question. No one else's presence is more meaningless than your's under this entire topic, and yet, the question actually applies to you more than anyone else here. What irony!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
You have to be off your ever loving rockers. Only in Explorer coo coo world is it procedure to call someone's views into question, not only with a preposterously stupid question that's impossible to answer with the data at hand (i.e., what language prehistoric Siwans spoke prior to the emergence of Berber languages), but is such retarded pseudo-scientific questioning used in the stead of proactive refutations of the observations I posted.

Indeed, only in Explorer coo coo world does it make sense to kick off debate with cornball interviews, instead of addressing the opponents' observations that are perceived to be emotionally offensive (yes, truth hurts). I'm not in explorer coo coo world; I'm in the real world, where you either debate pro-actively, and say what it is you have to say, or suck it easy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Population and language are two different things that are often mutually exclusive. That said, no doubt the Tuareg do carry old genetic components, but they are not the only ones.

---

The basic layers of Tamasheq ("Tuareg") gene pool may be less forthcoming in rendering the group as a potential window into an ancestral Tamazight-group, due to the geographic positioning of the Tuareg, which spans western--mainly--to central (Libya) Sahara and Sahel. The Tamasheq have not been as isolated as the Siwa have been; they have received recurring gene flow from both neighboring populations of the Sahel and those of the Sahara. The mtDNA gene pool of western Sahel Tamasheq, for instance, has been heavily impacted by western African gene pool.

---

This is interesting because the Tuareg carry E-V68 (18Kya), the Tamazight carry E-M183 (5-6Kya). The Ttan Tuareg carry R1b in, R1b1* is in Siwa.





 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

This is interesting because the Tuareg carry E-V68, if we propose them as the precursor? R1b in Tuareg, R1b1* in Siwa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

^ I notice both are older in the Tuareg.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

^ I notice both are older in the Tuareg.

---

On what account. I've already commented on your citations. Same on R1b.

---

quote:

---

This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

^ I notice both are older in the Tuareg.

---

On what account. I've already commented on your citations. Same on R1b.

---

quote:

---

The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.

---

quote:

---

These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.

---

quote:

---

Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.

---

quote:

---

Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

---

quote:

---

Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

---

quote:

---

Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

^ I notice both are older in the Tuareg.

---

On what account. I've already commented on your citations. Same on R1b.

---

quote:

---

The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. A key question surrounds its appearance in the Maghreb, a semi-arid upland zone on the edge of the Sahara, soon after the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 years ago) and despite evidence for a continuation into the Holocene very little is known either about the later part of this timespan or what processes led to its disappearance after 9000 years ago. An issue rarely commented upon is the apparently synchronous and sudden occurrence of large scale midden deposits in Iberomaurusian contexts in caves across the western Maghreb at around 13,000 years ago. This also seems to have coincided with the appearance of some of the earliest cemeteries.

The climatic framework of this study is the late Pleistocene and early Holocene (c. 20,000 - 9000 BP) and is important because it was a phase of major climatic instability and allows us to assess any cultural responses made by Iberomaurusian human populations in the context of these changes. Details of the climatic record for this period come principally from the Greenland Ice cores but there were also marked fluctuations in sea surface temperatures recorded in basal sediments of the Atlantic and Mediterranean. These indicate evidence of distinct cooling phases associated with increased aridification on the adjacent landmasses of North Africa during the Younger Dryas (c.11,000-10,000 years ago), and at earlier times in the past including at around 15,000 and 25,000 years ago. The climatic dynamics provide a vital element in exploring the effects of environmental change on epipalaeolithic human behaviour.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

^ I notice both are older in the Tuareg.

---

On what account. I've already commented on your citations. Same on R1b.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

^ I notice both are older in the Tuareg.

---

On what account. I've already commented on your citations. Same on R1b.

---

The irony here is that they speak of a people who apparently came from the South of Northeast Africa (modern Sudan-Egypt border). And if I am not mistaking E-V68 is said to have originated at region of Lake Nubia. If you ask me, I'd say it's even coherent with the Halfan industry.

From what I have read, the Beja are older to the Tuareg. Which is another irony.

The Tuareg come closest, therefor I propose them as the candidate. Of course it needs further inspection.


Late Pleistocene Early Holocene Maghreb

http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlubell/Ency_Maghreb.pdf
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
I was looking up some info, when I encountered into this. Surprisingly I have to say thou.


http://exploring-africa.blogspot.nl/2008_09_02_archive.html
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
_______________________________________________
The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1...

The genetic diversity of the Libyan H1 mtDNAs appeared to be extremely low, with 91% of the H1 individuals sharing the same HVS-I/II haplotype (i.e. CRS-263).

-Ottoni 2010
__________________________________________


 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change

quote:

---

The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.

---

quote:

---

These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.

---

quote:

---

Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.

---

quote:

---

Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

---

--(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)

quote:

---

Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

---

quote:

---

Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

---

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002995

The above encapsulated exactly with the Genetic mutation and occurrence of E-M81.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

The irony here is that they speak of a people who apparently came from the South of Northeast Africa (modern Sudan-Egypt border). And if I am not mistaking E-V68 is said to have originated at region of Lake Nubia. If you ask me, I'd say it's even coherent with the Halfan industry.

---

quote:

---

From what I have read, the Beja are older to the Tuareg. Which is another irony.

---

quote:

---

The Tuareg come closest, therefor I propose them as the candidate. Of course it needs further inspection.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I was looking up some info, when I encountered into this. Surprisingly I have to say thou.


http://exploring-africa.blogspot.nl/2008_09_02_archive.html

---

quote:

---

Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

---

quote:

---

Carrying out biological or genetic investigations of the Tuareg has not always been easy because of their demanding lifestyle and their often negative attitude to the European colonists. Cavalli-Sforza et al,2 whose synthesized study of classical protein and serological markers is well known, noticed a genetic link between the Tuareg and Beja from Eastern Sudan. The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.[...]


The Tuareg population from Libya was homogenous with very low estimates of haplotype diversity suggesting high genetic drift.5

---

quote:

---

Coming to similar conclusions as the Cruciani and Trombetta team, Battaglia et al. (2008), writing prior to the discovery of E-V68, describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
_______________________________________________
The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1...

The genetic diversity of the Libyan H1 mtDNAs appeared to be extremely low, with 91% of the H1 individuals sharing the same HVS-I/II haplotype (i.e. CRS-263).

-Ottoni 2010
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The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.

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The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin

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Originally posted by The Explorer:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I was looking up some info, when I encountered into this. Surprisingly I have to say thou.


http://exploring-africa.blogspot.nl/2008_09_02_archive.html

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Yes, it is from my blog. It covers a lot of the stuff you posted above about the Epipaleolithic Maghrebi series, the so-called "Mechtoids" (from Hassi el-Abiod) of Mali and the Gobero remains, and the cranio-facial PC analysis between them. What is surprising about encountering this source?

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The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

My interpretation for the E-M81 mutation is the region of the Maghreb. As I have posted underwent a climate change and shifts, during the same timeframe the age of the mutation was estimated.

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To answer your question whether I propose the Tuareg as the spinoff population, yes I do consider the nomadic, pastoralist Tuaregs as the prominent population considering the follis records and the age of Hg E-V68.

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Ironically how the Ténéré is in Niger. From they come/ came.

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Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

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http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002995

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Carrying out biological or genetic investigations of the Tuareg has not always been easy because of their demanding lifestyle and their often negative attitude to the European colonists. Cavalli-Sforza et al,2 whose synthesized study of classical protein and serological markers is well known, noticed a genetic link between the Tuareg and Beja from Eastern Sudan. The fact that the genetic distances between the Tuareg and Berber/North-western Africans were larger than that between the Tuareg and Beja, provides a picture of a common origin and population separation at some point more than 5000 years ago. Interestingly, both people are also pastoralist and speak Afro-Asiatic languages, even if the Beja language (Bedawi), with its four dialects, belongs to the Cushitic branch, whereas Tamasheq belongs to the Berber branch. The fact that these two peoples today speak different languages might be explained either by the Tuareg having acquired the Berber language during their westwards migration, or possibly by the Beja coming under the influence of some Eastern African peoples as language shift is a relatively common phenomenon.[...]


The Tuareg population from Libya was homogenous with very low estimates of haplotype diversity suggesting high genetic drift.5

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--Luísa Pereira, Viktor Černý

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I found it rather precursive and here rhetorical.

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ORiginally posted by The Explorer:
People like swenet have to be clued on it, who denies that the Maghrebi series has close morphological relationships with other Africans. The authors noting of the temporal range is interestingly, in that it may well speak to that potential factor of environment I noted about elsewhere, in the modification of the EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi series.

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In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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ORiginally posted by The Explorer:
People like swenet have to be clued on it, who denies that the Maghrebi series has close morphological relationships with other Africans. The authors noting of the temporal range is interestingly, in that it may well speak to that potential factor of environment I noted about elsewhere, in the modification of the EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi series.

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This is yet another example of the fact that you simply do not know how to interpret physical anthropology.

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They're comparing Late Pleistocene generalized AMHs and African holocene remains with a retention of a similar UP physique, re: 'Mechtoid' (or 'generalized' when the said physique is discussed in the context of non-African populations).

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The Hassi el Abiod, Asselar man and other Mechtoid Sub-Saharan remains simply have dual cranio-metric ties, both with Sub-Saharan Africans on the one hand, and on the other hand, with other generalized remains both in Northern Africa, as well as UP Europe. It has, for instance, been noted for a long time that Asselar man shows relationships with European UP fossils, as well as with modern Sub Saharan African populations, and the same observations have been made for the Mesolithic Nubians samples. That, however, does not mean Ibero-Maurusians have the same dual ties with modern Sub-Saharan Africans--they don't.

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That coastal North African Ibero-Maurusians and the 'Mechtoid' Saharan populations like Hassi el albiod and Asselar mostly have superficial, size/'generalized' related ties, can be seen in the fact that their mandible measurements are worlds apart in the 'shape' department. When the Saharan (Hassi el abiod etc) and coastal Mechtoid populations (Ibero-Maurusians) are allowed to plot along a 'shape' dimension, all Sub-Saharan MSA, LSA and Saharan Mechtoid populations seperate from the North African coastal Ibero-Maurusian and Capsian populations

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

My interpretation for the E-M81 mutation is the region of the Maghreb. As I have posted underwent a climate change and shifts, during the same timeframe the age of the mutation was estimated.

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That is not what the age estimation of E-M81 and geographic distribution suggests. Older ages had been attributed to east African chromosomes, and if memory serves me correctly, it has been found in places in eastern Africa, e.g. Sudan, where no "Berber" languages are spoken.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
_______________________________________________
The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1...

The genetic diversity of the Libyan H1 mtDNAs appeared to be extremely low, with 91% of the H1 individuals sharing the same HVS-I/II haplotype (i.e. CRS-263).

-Ottoni 2010
__________________________________________

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We have to get to the NittyGritty,

quote:

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The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.

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--Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change

quote:

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The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin

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--Lawrence Barham

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http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002995

Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
Paul C. Sereno

Two main occupational phases are identified that correspond with humid intervals in the early and mid-Holocene, based on 78 direct AMS radiocarbon dates on human remains, fauna and artifacts, as well as 9 OSL dates on paleodune sand. The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb. Their hyperflexed burials compose the earliest cemetery in the Sahara dating to ~7500 B.C.E. These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.


Phase 3 humans have more gracile skeletons and shorter stature for both males and females. They are buried most commonly in semi-flexed postures on either left or right sides (Figure 5D, E). Their crania are long, high and narrow, and their faces are taller with considerable alveolar prognathism (Figure 5C). Principal components analysis of craniometric data clearly distinguishes the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) from all other sampled populations, including the early Holocene population at Gobero, Iberomaurusian and Capsian populations from the Maghreb, “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania, as well as much older Aterian samples (Figure 6). The morphological isolation of the mid-Holocene population from Gobero is particularly noteworthy, as several of the other populations sampled (WMC, Mali, Maur) are believed to be mid-Holocene contemporaries.


Early and mid-Holocene occupation phases 2 and 3 at Gobero are separated in time by a barren interval (6200–5200 B.C.E), which is associated with a period of severe aridification recorded across the Sahara.

Population replacement rather than gradual phenotypic evolution best explains the distinctive craniofacial morphology and funerary practices of the human occupants during phases 2 and 3 in the early and mid-Holocene, respectively, particularly considering the relatively short intervening occupational hiatus.

______________________________

Capsian culture is more recent than the Iberomaurusian

However there is no evidence of continuity between hunter forager Capsian and contemporary berber populations. In fact the is a gap in the archaeological findings 2-4000 years.

The DNA of contemporary populations is the DNA of contemporary populations.
The morphology at some of these earlier period sites of particular phases does not change that.
Interestingly the Tuareg have the highest frequency of H1 in the world
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 


LOL the whole suggestion of Eurasians being in Northwest Africa during the Mesolithic was based on stone remains. Nowhere does the study suggest a foreign population intrusion.


And we have now gone from 30Kya to a probability of 4-2Kya. Eurasian presence. In Northwest Africa.


I suggest you follow the debate between Swenet and The Explorer.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


And we have now gone from 30Kya to a probability of 2-4Kya. Eurasian presence.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


I suggest you follow the debate between Swenet and The Explorer.

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Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

The population responsible for Gobero is the same population or closely related, that moved into the Maghreb. LOL

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

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Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

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The early Holocene occupants at Gobero are similar to trans-Saharan of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.

The late occupants at Gobero are not similar to the trans-Saharan Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
That was made clear in the article.
There is an ending point at which there are no more burials at Gobero corresponding to desertification
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Repost,

WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:

The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).

--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)


Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb




Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.





Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54].
doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003



 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Repost,


Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.

Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.

Fox et. al

A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.


Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea.


Fernández Domínguez, E. et al.

(2005)

The presence of almost 50% of sub-Saharan lineages L1b, L2 and L3 in Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre, suggests the existence of an important gene flow from Africa to this geographic region.


The low frequency of these lineages in the current Spanish population indicates that it has gene produced a replacement from the Chalcolithic period.


The entry of African lineages could occur during the Paleolithic, during the Neolithic period, or during both periods.


The phylogenetically related sequences present in the Chalcolithic deposit Iberian Peninsula and Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples of the Middle East points to Neolithic as most likely time of entry into the peninsula of these lineages.


Description: SUMMARY OF DOCTORAL THESIS The origins of European populations have been addressed from different disciplines, highlighting the contribution of population genetics studies. Shuffle two moments in prehistory in which it has been possible to model the gene pool of populations in Europe: the spread of Neolithic and Palaeolithic period expansions. The ability to recover from bygone population genetics provides a unique opportunity to test the assumptions made in situ from other disciplines. We studied 197 samples from 115 dental and bone individuals 17 archaeological sites Sumerian Neolithic and Middle East, when Meroitic Nubia and Paleolithic era, post-Neolithic and Neolithic of the Iberian Peninsula. We obtained complete sequences of mitochondrial DNA of 244 bp of 35 different individuals, were compared with sequences from the same region of present individuals from 38 populations in Europe, Africa and Middle East. In phylogenetic reconstructions based on Reynolds distance groups of ancient samples are grouped together, separated from the rest of current populations. However, phylogenetic reconstructions made from the haplotypes of ancient and modern samples denote that although the majority of ancient mitochondrial variants are not present in current populations sampled, may relate more or less closely with them. The composition of haplotypes and haplogroups of ancient samples from the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula differs markedly from that found in the current populations of these geographical regions. In the ancient Middle East show highlights in particular the absence of mitochondrial haplogroup J, U3, W and X, associated with the Neolithic expansion into Europe. This may be due either to the sample obtained is not old chronologically or geographically-representative populations of the Middle East that spread during the Neolithic well that these variants were not introduced in Europe during the Neolithic. In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic. This work also delved into various technical aspects of obtaining authentic ancient DNA and the influence of several variables in the preservation of genetic material. ABSTRACT The origins of the European Populations Studied extensively from Have Been Different disciplines. It is Thought That ancient demic expansions, like occurred After the Late Those Glacial Maximum or DURING the Middle East from neolithic diffussion to Europe. The Possibility to recover DNA from past Populations offers an unique Opportunity to test in situ These hypothesis. 197 It Were Analyzed teeth and bones from 115 individuos Archaeological Sites and 17 Different from Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula. It WAS possible to recover mitochondrial DNA sequences 244pb-35 from Different Individuals. They Were 38 Compared to sequences from European, African and Middle Eastern Populations present-day. Phylogenetic Reconstructions from Reynolds genetic distance Showed That ancient samples clustered together, extant from Clearly Separated Populations. Howeve, based phylogenetic Reconstructions on ancient and modern mitochondrial haplotypes Showed That ancient haplotypes are related to extant ones. Haplotype frequencies and haplogroup in samples from the ancient Middle East and the Iberian Peninsula are Different from Those Clearly present in the Same Geographical Nowadays regions. Haplogroups related to J neolithic expansion to Europe, U3, W and X-are absent in ancient middle eastern sample. There are two possible Explanations to this fact. First, It Could Be That the ancient samples possible Analyzed wont be representative of the Middle Eastern Populations That expanded the neolithic. Second, It Could Be That Those haplogroups Also possible wont Have Been made to them in Europe associated with expansions to neolithic demic. At This work It Were Also Examined technical Several Aspects related to the obtention of genuine ancient DNA and the Influence of Different variables in DNA preservation.



 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Okay now, the progress of this thread has veered way off topic. I'm still not seeing any linguistic substantiation of the Siwa being acculturated "Berbers".

I see people pushing genetics in a bid to downplay the potential role of the Siwa as perhaps a window into the proto-Tamazight ancestral source, both from a language and genetic standpoint.
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:
Okay now, the progress of this thread has veered way off topic. I'm still not seeing any linguistic substantiation of the Siwa being acculturated "Berbers".

I see people pushing genetics in a bid to downplay the potential role of the Siwa as perhaps a window into the proto-Tamazight ancestral source, both from a language and genetic standpoint.

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From 1951 to 1955 the Abb6 J. Roche excavated the Mouillian layer in Taforalt Cave, 55 km. northwest of Oujda, Morocco. From it he removed 122 skeletons which Mlle. Ferembach has studied in impressive detail, describing every bone except the hyoid which, she states, has no racial significance. These skeletons represent a single local population living there between about 10,000 B.C. and 8,500 B.C. (C-14),some 50 generations. About 700 km. (470 mi.) away is Afalou bou Rhummel, an Algerian cave with an equally large collection. We now know more about the Mouillians than about anyone else in Africa except the Ancient Egyptians. About their predecessors we knew very little until the discovery of two skulls at Jebel Ighoud, Morocco, too late for her book.


The Taforalt folk were big and bony except for one dwarf. The men averaged 5’73” in stature (174cm.), the women 5’ 4” (162 cm.). They had large, craggy skulls, short, broad faces, broad noses rising deep below glabella, and massive jaws. Their trunks were not long, but the legs and forearms were, review of her book in Science, 8 May, 1964). Personally, I wish she had seen the Jebel Ighoud skulls before writing because, in my opinion, insofar as the Beni Taforalt differ from the Upper Paleolithic Europeans they do so mainly in the direction of their indigenous predecessors.

She points out that this was an inbred local population, with a 75 percent incidence of spina bifida and other sacral anomalies, many wormian bones, and a high infant mortality. Two-thirds of them died during their first two years of life. Of the adults, only two may have lived past 40. Jean nastugue shows that very few bones were pathological except for arthritis, and Marie-Jeanne Poitrat-Targloma that a t least 10 percent of the teeth show calcification trouble, presumably during the weaning crisis.

This book is a model of meticulous study of a most interesting prehistoric population for which the author and her colleagues are to be heartily congratulated. I know of nothing comparable in the literature of physical anthropology.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:

Okay now, the progress of this thread has veered way off topic. I'm still not seeing any linguistic substantiation of the Siwa being acculturated "Berbers".

I see people pushing genetics in a bid to downplay the potential role of the Siwa as perhaps a window into the proto-Tamazight ancestral source, both from a language and genetic standpoint.

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Yeah. The topic is on Siwan language yet the entire time you guys are talking about DNA and morphology.

As far as linguistics is concerned, lioness already posted this:

'Becoming Eloquent: advances in the emergence of language, human cognition ...'
edited by F. d' Errico, Jean Marie Hombert



I am automatically reminded of the troll Melchior who used to post his nonsense on the Siwans on past threads such as the Siwan's black appearance being the result of "Nilo-Saharan slaves" and that their language or rather the original speakers were likely to resemble that of the Awjilah. Funny how the above paper while recognizing a linguistic link to the Awjilah, states that closer affinities are to be made with central Libyans like the Nafusa, which we know are obviously black in appearance.

Recall how the troll Melchior claimed the Awjilah have a physical appearance that was "Middle-Eastern type Eurasian" which he claimed was ancestral to all Berbers and Egyptians as shown in the following pictures he posted.





Of course being the liar that he is, he only cherry-picks those Awjilah that are fair-skinned and look the most 'Caucasian'. He never showed the full diversity of looks that exists among them showing them to be actually Eurasian-mixed as seen here:

Awjilah people
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
...
 

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