This old Cruciani graphic assigns E-M33 a 14k origin and Mali hi freq w/a radius spanning the West Afican savanna to the Sahara, short of the Atlas and Sirte, tapering off in the region of Darfur.
Does current data still support this?
Anyway the Cruciani graphic has me thinking E-M33 as a major haplogroup for old Saharan, Atlas, and even Maghreb populations as in their black majority inhabitants Greco-Latin authors wrote about.
I'm reminded of Strabo quoting Ephorus' report
quote: "that Æthiopians overran Libya as far as Dyris [the Atlas Mountains] and that some of them stayed in Dyris, while others occupied a great part of the sea-board."
Geography 1.2.26
and various notes of black pre-Saharans & Saharans * Nigritae * MelanoGaetuli * Western Aethiopians * Leukaethiopes and others.
BTW this doesn't exempt any of these blacks from proportions of E-M81 or other "North African specific" HGs though over time we see many of the darker and the non-Tamazight speakers relocating further and further south.
Posted by .Charlie Bass. (Member # 10328) on :
I do know it was found highest in Fulanis from Cameroon as well.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oops, the graphic is Semino 2004 Fig 1, sorry. By the above post that graphic seems outdated.
CB, is your Fulani freq from Hassan and if so is it Kameroun or Sudan?
Bring me up to speed, please. I'm really out of touch on E-M33 w/no reports in my DB focus on it.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Oops, the graphic is Semino 2004 Fig 1, sorry. By the above post that graphic seems outdated.
CB, is your Fulani freq from Hassan and if so is it Kameroun or Sudan?
Bring me up to speed, please. I'm really out of touch on E-M33 w/no reports in my DB focus on it.
I haven't come across any other interpretation, so I guess it still holds ground. Other then the fact they subscribe E-M33 as E1a as the only change.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Thanks Ish
So no further sampling since 1999 & 2002 when, though using haplotypes, M33 was in fact discerned thus securely confirming the E-M81 assignment biallelically.
???
Drift/founder effect for Cameroon Fulani to explain their freq so far from the Futa Toro homeland and as compared with other Fulani populations.
???
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Anyway the Cruciani graphic has me thinking E-M33 as a major haplogroup for old Saharan, Atlas, and even Maghreb populations as in their black majority inhabitants Greco-Latin authors wrote about.
Right on tha ka-ching, alTakr.
quote:"The prescence in Portugal of both the A and E1 haplogroups may be independent from the slave trade (otherwise E3a would be well represented since it comprises the majority of West African lineages). These findings either suggest a pre-neolithic migration from North Africa or a more recent origin from a founder population of small size that did not carry haplogroup E3a, which is a major component in North African populations today. TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 +/- 7.2 ky favors the first scenario"
--Goncalves et al. 2005
Specifically how this TMRCA was arrived @, I'm not sure.
And what study is that? (author title) and don't tell me to follow the link. Bring me a quote or something don't ask me to read the whole thing either.
Of course I know what it is or I couldn't've replied to Ish about the haplotypes being confirmed by the biallelic and the dates when the samples were analyzed but not everbody wants ta blindly follow posted links w/o knowing where they're going or eating up their time time.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: TMRCA for Portuguese E1 lineages estimated as 22.9 +/- 7.2 ky favors the first scenario"
--Goncalves et al. 2005
Specifically how this TMRCA was arrived @, I'm not sure.
[/QUOTE]
From the 5 haplotype samples I guess. But if Portuguese E1 is that old then the African E1 would be even older and in any case greatly exceeds Semino
nrY age estimates are notoriously flaky and depend on which STRs are selected. Even one unique haplotype will yield different dates pending which STRs were used.
In this case even the ballpark era correlation is at variance seemingly being at near opposite ends of the LGAM.
Not on the subject at hand but these dates for various African uniparentals in Europe make a lie out of no coastal presence for "non-pre/proto Berber" Africans before "slavery."
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Not on the subject at hand but these dates for various African uniparentals in Europe make a lie out of no coastal presence for "non-pre/proto Berber" Africans before "slavery."
As I've let it be known earlier, E-M33 shows an epicentre consistent with Mali's pottery producing Ounjougou based populations, as early as 11kya, who were the Dogon's predecessors in Dogon land.
The semi-African affinities of Eurasian AMHs world-wide makes it hard to make definite statements, but there seems to be skeletal evidence for Africans in Iberia as early as the Mesolithic. See Brace 2005s figs for his (presumably 'Muge') Mesolithic sample and also Coon's comments on the Portugal Mesolithic's Muge.
Anyway, a renewed (i.e. after the Aterians) influx of (Sub-)Saharan African elements seems to be reflected in certain Capsian skeletal elements (e.g. Kanguet El Mouhaad 5, Mechta 3 also see Ain Dokhara's positioning in Holiday 2013). This would put the evidence for (West?) African hunter gatherers, in addition to contemporary and nearby populations of Eastern provenance (like the Tenerians), on the Maghrebi desert/Coast edge at, at least between the early and mid-holocene. E-M33 may be involved.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Below study is 9 years old and afaik unique in aging E-M33 totally in Paleolithic times. Its given age for E-M33 in Portugal greatly exceeds that of E-M33 anywhere in Africa that I know about.
Portuguese Paleolithic E-M33 would suggest introduction from Maurusian industry Maghreb thus supplying one potential male signature for African U6, (L3)M1, and L3k female lineages there in the Maurusian era Maghreb.
Here Gonçalves presents an SD for Portuguese E-M33 with an upper limit of 30.1k and lower limit of 15.7k.
Could these these males have escorted Apennine and/or Iberian females (H1) to northwest Africa? Or is there some flaw in Gonçalves et al? What other reports cite this study? Have they challenged its E-M33 conclusions?
(Hilites below are mine)
E1-M33 has a rather limited distribution in the West sub-Saharan region, reaching its highest frequency in Mali (34%, Underhill et al. 2000) and north Cameroon (especially among the Fulbe and Tali groups, Cruciani et al. 2002). This haplogroup is virtually absent in European populations (Semino et al. 2004) and Northwest Africa, although it is found among Berbers (1.6–3.2%, Bosch et al. 2001).
Gonçalves (with Rosa Underhill Kivisild Brehm) Y-chromosome Lineages from Portugal, Madeira and A¸cores Record Elements of Sephardim and Berber Ancestry Annals of Human Genetics (2005) 69,443–454
So is this information just obscure or or is it outdated or seriously flawed? And notice who co-signed the report.
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