quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The old-middle kingdom speakers were an early offshoot of Bantu speaking people who ultimately came from the great lakes region and merged with other ethnic groups to comprise the confederacy of ancient Kemet. Many of the major religious rites, conceptualizations, and lexicon are still found in this region of Africa, with their original pronunciations and attestations. The Egyptians even called themselves "Bantu" using two variants of the word: i.e., wntw and rmT. They lost control of Egypt after the first intermediate period and an indigenous group took over from there. [/qb]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness, You're saying the Old Kingdom royals were not indigenous? Where were they from?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: No they were not. They came from modern Sudan.
Early Dynastic Period 3100–2686 BC Old Kingdom 2686–2181 BC
^^^^Asar, Was West Africa populated in these periods ?
Clyde, same question
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
West Africa was probably first settled by the Khoisan.
. Around 12000 years ago the Khoisan would have been the dominant people in West Africa. They were also founders of Civilization in Europe and the Americas. The first Americans Naia, and Luzia dating to 12,000 BC were Negroes
NAIA of Mexico
LUZIA of Brazil
First Europeans .
In addition in Africa we find the Dafuna boat. The Dafuna boat has been dated to 8000 B.C., the culture associated with the people who built the Dafuna boat date back to 12,000 BC. This would indicate that around the time Kennewick man, Naia and Luzia inhabited the Americas, and Cro-Magnon man in Europe Khoisan in Africa had the naval technology to have sailed to the Americas. This indicates that Khoisan from West Africa was the dominate group in the world at this time.
By 4000 BC they were probably being replaced by the Anu or Pgymies.
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: West Africa was probably first settled by the Khoisan. By 4000BC the pgymies would have been the dominate group in West Africa.
Up until what time were pygmies the dominant group in West Africa?
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: West Africa was probably first settled by the Khoisan. By 4000BC the pgymies would have been the dominate group in West Africa.
Up until what time were pygmies the dominant group in West Africa?
It appears that between 1000-500 BC Niger-Congo speakers began to enter the area from the north and east. Prior to this I think the pgymies were the dominant group.
.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
Clyde could you delete the above, this topic is about West Africa 2686–2181 BC
kdolo Member # 21830
posted
"No they were not. They came from modern Sudan"
proofs ?
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Yes By Al Takruri
quote: This is one of the many sites in West Africa that was contemporary with pre-dynastic, archaic, and Old Kingdom Egypt. Here's an extract from an otherwise unavailable for free article by one of the subject's main scholars covering Tichitt's last phases.
Coping with uncertainty: Neolithic life in the Dhar Tichitt-Walata, Mauritania, (ca. 4000–2300 BP)
Augustin F.C. Holl
Abstract The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities starting from the first half of the first millennium AD, became part of the famous Ghana “empire”, the earliest state in West African history.
posted
What was happening in West African during the Old Kingdom ?
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yes By Al Takruri
quote: This is one of the many sites in West Africa that was contemporary with pre-dynastic, archaic, and Old Kingdom Egypt. Here's an extract from an otherwise unavailable for free article by one of the subject's main scholars covering Tichitt's last phases.
Coping with uncertainty: Neolithic life in the Dhar Tichitt-Walata, Mauritania, (ca. 4000–2300 BP)
Augustin F.C. Holl
Abstract The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities starting from the first half of the first millennium AD, became part of the famous Ghana “empire”, the earliest state in West African history.
Good post. I did not include Dar Tichitt in my analysis, since to me it is in northwest Africa. I am specifically situating my discussion of West Africa as the region from Senegal down into Nigeria. See: http://olmec98.net/man1.htm
.
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted The Civilization called Wagadu was getting it's start better known as Ghana, a Sonniki state.
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yes By Al Takruri
quote: This is one of the many sites in West Africa that was contemporary with pre-dynastic, archaic, and Old Kingdom Egypt. Here's an extract from an otherwise unavailable for free article by one of the subject's main scholars covering Tichitt's last phases.
Coping with uncertainty: Neolithic life in the Dhar Tichitt-Walata, Mauritania, (ca. 4000–2300 BP)
Augustin F.C. Holl
Abstract The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities starting from the first half of the first millennium AD, became part of the famous Ghana “empire”, the earliest state in West African history.
Good post. I did not include Dar Tichitt in my analysis, since to me it is in northwest Africa. I am specifically situating my discussion of West Africa as the region from Senegal down into Nigeria. See: http://olmec98.net/man1.htm
.
Well depend on your POV or reference point but it's the green spot on the map.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Yes By Al Takruri
quote: This is one of the many sites in West Africa that was contemporary with pre-dynastic, archaic, and Old Kingdom Egypt. Here's an extract from an otherwise unavailable for free article by one of the subject's main scholars covering Tichitt's last phases.
Coping with uncertainty: Neolithic life in the Dhar Tichitt-Walata, Mauritania, (ca. 4000–2300 BP)
Augustin F.C. Holl
Abstract The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities starting from the first half of the first millennium AD, became part of the famous Ghana “empire”, the earliest state in West African history.
Good post. I did not include Dar Tichitt in my analysis, since to me it is in northwest Africa. I am specifically situating my discussion of West Africa as the region from Senegal down into Nigeria. See: http://olmec98.net/man1.htm
.
Well depend on your POV or reference point but it's the green spot on the map.
I am confused, the Green map is for Ghana--not Dar Tichitt. First you mention Dar Tichitt now you say Ancient Ghana. Make up your mind. ancient Ghana, was not Dar Tichitt.
.
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted Abstract The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP.
shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities starting from the first half of the first millennium AD, became part of the famous Ghana “empire”, the earliest state in West African history. It's was later to be known as Ghana all Dhar Titichit and the cities there in are all Soninke..see the town called Walata well that's where Dar Tichitt proper is located..so yes Ghana is that OLD!
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Abstract The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP.
shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities starting from the first half of the first millennium AD, became part of the famous Ghana “empire”, the earliest state in West African history. It's was later to be known as Ghana all Dhar Titichit and the cities there in are all Soninke..see the town called Walata well that's where Dar Tichitt proper is located..so yes Ghana is that OLD!
posted
An AE era unoccupied West Africa is an unsubstantiated myth. All kinds of archaeology support normal size and current looks since the Holocene's beginnings.
Think. When the Sahara greened where did the people who moved into it come from? Indications are they retreated to places they knew of i.e. places of origin.
Way down in Nigeria's forrest belt 12,000 years ago at Iwo Eleru (Ife) Late Stone Age West Africans were pre-pottery Neolithic hunters.
From AE's pre-dynastic to 2nd Intermedite period Iwo Eleru and Mejiro Cave (Old Oyo) show Guinea Neolithic Industry finds of pottery and ground stone axes among the microliths. They were incipient farmers with oil palm orchards and gardens of yams, cola, and other roots and nuts.
1st millenia BCE Nigeria West Africa was a place transhumant Saharan pastoralists knew to go to as the Sahara began drying out. They brought their tool kit with them discontinuing flint for the local quartz. The locals were beginning to fashion iron tools.
In Nigeria Nok (950 BCE) and Taruga (880 BCE) foundations predate Piye and are contemporary roughly with the settling of the Phoenicians at Carthage. Oliga Cameroun (-1256) iron smelting began in the Amarna age.
Holocene W Afr is the domain of non-'KhoiSan' spekers. We have to go back to the Pliestocene and its Sangoan Industrial Complex to find similar people dominating W Afr.
Amun-Ra The Ultimate Member # 20039
posted
Modern West Africans are recent migrants from the Green Sahara period during the Holocene. We're talking about a period between about 10 000BC and 3000BC.
Before the Holocene, during the Pleistocene, that is before 10 000BC, West Africans had, for the most part of their genome, their origin among the E-P2 (PN2) populations in Eastern Africa (around Sudan, Ethiopia, etc) (see here). More than 80% of most West African populations are from the E-P2 haplogroup lineage.
E-P2 populations in Eastern Africa, future West Africans, probably migrated in the Green Sahara when it was greening following water(rains), plants and animals.
When modern West Africans, Niger-Kordofanian speakers, arrived in the interior of West Africa after the dessication of the Green Sahara during the Holocene. There they met and assimilated small groups of hunter-gatherers. Few genetic or linguistic traces of them are left now in West Africa. Those hunter-gatherers were probably from the haplogroup A and B which are in minority in modern West Africa.
I mentioned those things with scientific data and sources in those threads/posts:
So yes, West Africa was populated during the Old Kingdom era mostly by recent migrants from the desiccating Green Sahara. Before that time, the northern edge of West Africa was also part of the Green Sahara area and began to be inhabited by migrants from East Africa (E-P2/Niger-Kordofanian speakers) during the greening of the Sahara (or just a little bit before). It's only later on, during the dessication of the Sahara, beyond 5000-3000BC, that populations from the Green Sahara decided to move further south in West Africa in search of greener pastures.
xyyman Member # 13597
posted
Myth???!! You guys keep posting stuff you cannot substantiate. Where is the proof that Holocene W Africa is NOT the domain of Khoisan Speakers? Please people, put up or shut up.
It was occupied but by WHOM? Yes, they are all Africans. So TO AMRTU point. WHO WERE THEY? E-P2 is East African and as Dr Winters pointed out. What is the Bantu Language? Stay focused on the question.
The fact is, E1b1a is a very recent mutation. It is NOT of the Helocene
Does that mean these "West Africans" from the Helocene are actually Berbers?!!
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Holocene W Afr is the domain of non-'KhoiSan' spekers. We have to go back to the Pliestocene and its Sangoan Industrial Complex to find similar people dominating W Afr.
xyyman Member # 13597
posted
Quote by Moi...
During the last century, Bantu population has increased tenfold (Fig.4). Prior to 1900, however, it was another story. We can assume that between 1600 and 1900 the sub Saharan population increased at an average of five fold each century by conservative estimates, and doubled during the previous centuries. If we calculate backwards we can conclude that by 1000 AD there were no more than 1000 people who made up the entire Bantu population! This assumption takes into account other non Bantu groups such as the hunters/gathers of the tropical forests, the so-called Bushmen of southern Africa, the so called Nilotics of Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania and northern Congo, and the agropastoralists of central and east Africa, which would reduce Bantu population down to zero (0) by 800 CE. As for the hunters/gatherers and the agropastoralists, their population sizes were small but their settlements in the region around the first millennium BP have been well established by archeology (Sutton, Schmidt, van Noten, van Grunderbeek).
The author is saying mathematically there was essentially ZERO "Bantus" 1000years ago. See yearly changes or growth below.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: The old-middle kingdom speakers were an early offshoot of Bantu speaking people who ultimately came from the great lakes region and merged with other ethnic groups to comprise the confederacy of ancient Kemet. Many of the major religious rites, conceptualizations, and lexicon are still found in this region of Africa, with their original pronunciations and attestations. The Egyptians even called themselves "Bantu" using two variants of the word: i.e., wntw and rmT. They lost control of Egypt after the first intermediate period and an indigenous group took over from there.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness, You're saying the Old Kingdom royals were not indigenous? Where were they from?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: No they were not. They came from modern Sudan.
Early Dynastic Period 3100–2686 BC Old Kingdom 2686–2181 BC
^^^^Asar, Was West Africa populated in these periods ?
Clyde, same question [/QB]
Senile,
Yes, it was populated by African people, not potential eurasians.
The sandstone escarpment of the Dhar Tichitt in South-Central Mauritania was inhabited by Neolithic agropastoral communities for approximately one and half millennium during the Late Holocene, from ca. 4000 to 2300 BP. The absence of prior evidence of human settlement points to the influx of mobile herders moving away from the “drying” Sahara towards more humid lower latitudes. These herders took advantage of the peculiarities of the local geology and environment and succeeded in domesticating bulrush millet – Pennisetum sp. The emerging agropastoral subsistence complex had conflicting and/or complementary requirements depending on circumstances. In the long run, the social adjustment to the new subsistence complex, shifting site location strategies, nested settlement patterns and the rise of more encompassing polities appear to have been used to cope with climatic hazards in this relatively circumscribed area. An intense arid spell in the middle of the first millennium BC triggered the collapse of the whole Neolithic agropastoral system and the abandonment of the areas. These regions, resettled by sparse oasis-dwellers populations and iron-using communities start
quote:- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
--Jousse, Helene et al.
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs.
posted
^yes, I just noticed this, after reading the posts.
But I have additional info. Into as well.
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
then who's senile?
Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor Member # 18264
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: then who's senile?
You of course, since it was posted many times before on the forum.
Instead of arguing nonsense again, take a lesson to the additional info. Explaining have these Africans came from further South to inhabit the region up North.
posted 
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