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He write up totally contrary to what the authors are stating. I guess he doesn’t read the paper before he critiqs it. Or is jus a madman. Here is what the authors stated
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegeans - by Zuzana Hofmanová1 NOV2015
Quote Over the last 6 years ancient DNA studies have transformed our understanding of the European Neolithic transition (1-6, 24, 29), demonstrating a crucial role for migration in central and southwestern Europe. Our results bookend this transformative understanding by extending the unbroken trail of ancestry and migration all the way back to southwestern Asia. The lack of shared drift among central and southwestern Early Neolithic farmers to the exclusion of the genomes presented here suggests that Aegean Neolithic populations CAN BE considered the root for all early European farmers and their colonization routes. A key remaining question is whether this unbroken trail of ancestry and migration extends all the way back to southeastern Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent, where the earliest Neolithic sites in the world are found. . Regardless of whether the Aegean early farmers were ultimately descended from western or central Anatolian, or even Levantine hunter-gatherer, the differences between the ancient genomes presented here and those from the Caucasus (23) indicates that there was considerable structuring of forager populations in southwest Asia prior to the transition to farming. The DISSIMILARITY AND LACK OF CONTINUITY of the Early Neolithic Aegean genomes to modern Turkish and Levantine populations, in contrast to those of early central and southwestern European farmer and modern Mediterraneans, is best explained by SUBSEQUENT gene-flow into Anatolia from yet unknown sources.Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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So DNATribes (and I)was right!!!. RIP Lucas Martin. Chicken is coming home to roost
-------------- Quote: Modern Anatolian and Aegean populations do not appear to be the direct descendents of Neolithic peoples from the same region. Indeed, our mixture model comparison of the Aegean genomes to >200 modern groups2 indicates low affinity between the two Anatolian Neolithic genomes and seven of eight modern Turkish samples (the eighth is from Trabzon on the Black Sea coast, a long-standing area of Pontic Greek settlement). Furthermore, when we form each Anatolian Neolithic genome as a mixture of all modern groups, we infer ****no**** contributions from groups in southeastern Anatolia and the Levant where the earliest Neolithic sites are found. . Similarly, comparison of allele sharing between ancient and modern genomes to those expected under population continuity indicates Neolithic to modern discontinuity in Greece and western Anatolia, unless ancestral populations were unrealistically small. Instead, our mixing analysis shows that each Aegean Neolithic genome closely corresponds genetically to modern Mediterraneans, and in particular Sardinians (as also seen in the PCA and outgroup f3 statistics), [b]with few *********substantial contributions from elsewhere*********{/b]. ------------------------ Do you want to know where the “elsewhere” is?????????? Lol!
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The first two dimensions of variation from principal components analysis (PCA) reveal a tight clustering of all five Aegean Neolithic genomes with Early Neolithic genomes from central and southern Europe (2, 3, 24) (Fig. 2).
Quote: Early Neolithic genomes from Germany and Hungary. However, while these results conform to a Neolithic dispersal from Anatolia to Greece, and then to the rest of Europe, it is not possible to infer a direction for dispersal within the Aegean with statistical confidence since both the Greek and Anatolian genomes copy from each other to a similar extent. We therefore see the origins of European farmers equally well represented by Early Neolithic Greek and northwestern Anatolian genomes (29). It is widely believed that farming spread into Europe along both Mediterranean and central European routes, but the extent to which this process involved demic dispersals from the Aegean has long been a matter of debate (30). We applied f4 statistics to examine whether the Spanish Neolithic farmers shared MORE drift with the Early Neolithic genome from Germany than with the Aegeans, which would be expected if Neolithic populations first reached southwestern Europe via central Europe. We found no support for this hypothesis: none of the early farmers in Europe shared significantly more drift with one another than with Aegean farmers. This result is consistent with early farmers migrating from the Aegean via at least ***TWO** independent routes into central and southwestern Europe, and with inferences made on the BASIS OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE (31, 32).
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I can’t wait to get my hands on the Supplemental. Yummy!
This is the first I have seen Loshcbour having a significant African presence. See Fig3. I always suspected the “metapopulation” of which Loshcbour was, entered through Iberia from Africa. Notice also the LBK genetic component has a strong African presence to the further south.
This is an example of how conflicted Europeans are. They are at war within themselves. Conflicted, delusional and mental anguish. Why? They are admitting the Neolithics came from “elsewhere” , show charts including Africans but infer “Greece was the first where they landed. Again trying to upplay the contribution of the modern “geopolitical Europe”. Europe had nothing to do with the turn to Neolithic system.
They are admitting it was NOT from the Levant and the modern population of Greece and the Levant have essentially replaced the original inhabitants of these areas.
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So Lioness. There you have it. The origin of Neolithic from the Levant is “inferred” from archeology. Now genetics have smashed that fantasy to a thousand pieces. Infact the Neolithics having first appeared(archeology) in the Levant is a lie. These people never island hopped to Iberia. The drying of the Sahra what trgger the entire transformation. These dispersed Sahara Africans went on to transform the world wherever they went. Per DNATribes. From the Sahara, Europe, Persia and the Harrapan Valley. The chicken is coming home to roost.
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Everyone has a Genetic Lab now…….they will have to eventually stop lying or run the risk of being exposed and be embarrassed for what they are. It is only matter of time. Lol!
This is essentially a group of unknowns genetic scientist. Of course being Europeans they are afflicted, conflicted, self absorbed and delusional. Yeah, Greece!! Riiiight. Although THEIR charts show Africans carry Loschbour, LBK and other Neolithic material even points further South. They even concluded “elsewhere” but was afraid to name that region but ruled OUT the Levant.
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Surprisingly it took so long to resolve the Neolithic origins through DNA. The geographic pattern was dropping clues but we finally here come “nobodies” that had the courage to publish what I speculated all along. No big players in this paper. I excepted this from some of the bigger players not upstarts to make the break through. Of course the crew is mostly Greeks, by their names, so their views are a little twisted in favor of Greek origin.
But there are a few caveats to the study. For example,
1. Loschbour DNA remains in existence in Africa, even in Islands of the coast of Africa.
2. LBK DNA is not found in Western Europe but has high frequency in Africa and the Levant. The means the LBK technology was shared by ALL Neolithic Africans and the LBK peoples in the Levant did NOT migrate to Western Europe. The LBK technology found in Western Europe was brought by DIFFERENT group of African Neolithics. The Anthropology and genetics now corroborate each other. 3. 4. DNATribes, Sergi and myself(xyyman) was right.
The last remaining piece of the puzzle is the European R1b-M269 origins. Right now the game is to place its origin in the Asian Steppes. But that is IMPOSSIBLE as I pointed out in other threads. What some authors are doing is grouping R1b-M269 as a Macrogroup, which it is, but under high resolution there are differences as Busby et al pointed out. He confirmed there was NO East-to-West migration and provided data. He also stated there was no South to North relation but NEVER provided the data. So in essence he ruled out the Steppes as the source but shied away from providing proof there was migration from the South. But oddly other authors have already speculated South ie Palestine has older R1b-M269 than Europe, but that study did not include Africans. Tic! Toc! This will be resolved soon also. HE! He! HE!
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I go where the data takes me. Europeans are a subset of Africans. Depigmented Africans. Even the blue eyed Loschbour and La Brana. He! He! He!
The defense rest….
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If I was a gambling man I would put money on San, Sandewe, Hadza and other click speakers having higher frequency of Loshcbour than Yorubans. But these ancient African populations were NOT included in some of these studies.
Why do I say that? To Dr Winters point, San, Sandewe etc, were the original “metapopulation” although they probably did not look like they are today. (I disagree with him San brought R1b to Europe – R1b-M269 is relatively young as is E1b1a). These artist reconstructions is a waste of time. Genetics is deeper than superficial facial “features”. That metapopulation probably looked a lot like Australians. I contend that kinky hair is a recent adaptation both in Asia and Africa. Also the Amazigh/Berbers are older Africans than Yorubans. Yorubans are “new” Africans. But this young innovative Yorubans played a key role in dispersing the Neolithic technology incredulous as it may “look”. Remember these new Africans brought civilization to the Armenians. Sources cited in my “there goes the neighborhood” thread on ESR. To the chagrined of Euronutz and Afro-Centered both probably got it wrong.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I was a gambling man I would put money on San, Sandewe, Hadza and other click speakers having higher frequency of Loshcbour than Yorubans. But these ancient African populations were NOT included in some of these studies.
Why do I say that? To Dr Winters point, San, Sandewe etc, were the original “metapopulation” although they probably did not look like they are today. (I disagree with him San brought R1b to Europe – R1b-M269 is relatively young as is E1b1a). These artist reconstructions is a waste of time. Genetics is deeper than superficial facial “features”. That metapopulation probably looked a lot like Australians. I contend that kinky hair is a recent adaptation both in Asia and Africa. Also the Amazigh/Berbers are older Africans than Yorubans. Yorubans are “new” Africans. But this young innovative Yorubans played a key role in dispersing the Neolithic technology incredulous as it may “look”. Remember these new Africans brought civilization to the Armenians. Sources cited in my “there goes the neighborhood” thread on ESR. To the chagrined of Euronutz and Afro-Centered both probably got it wrong.
I never said that Khoisan introduced R-M269 to Europe. Unless I missed something researchers have not identified the R haplogroup carried by Mal'ta man.
Until the Mal'ta R haplogroup is resolved we won't know which clade it belongs to. upon resolution it will probably be V88 or R-M343. They know what clade it belongs too but they don't want to add more evidence of the Black/Africaness of the first European.
Moreover, the Amazigh are not older Africans than Yorubans. The ancestors of the Amazigh were predominately Germanic, why do you think they would be older than the Yoruba? The Atlas Berbers who still show Khoisan features and ancestry are probably older than the Yoruba.
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The Khoisan were probably the original North Africans. They were the Cro-Magnon people who took the Augrinacian culture into Europe. The Khoisan are the ancestors of the Black Berbers whoes descendants probably live in Morocco and the Atlas Mountains. The Black Berbers of the Atlas Mountains and other parts of Northwest Africa are of Sub-Saharan origin and took African mtDNA into Western Europe over 40kya. The Gibraltar Straits appears to be the most reliable route for the spread of many mtDNA haplogroups from Africa, into Europe over the past 30ky (Winters,2012), including L3(M,N) . The Khoisan carry L1c,L1i, L2b, L3d ( Rito, et al ,2013) . The motif L3b, is widespread in western Africans. It is mainly found among populations that speak languages of the Niger-Congo family like the Mandekan.
Like most African haplogroups the control region of hg L1i include 16189,16223 and 16311, just like L3a and L3b. The mutation that connects the Khoisan to the spread of L3(M,N) is AF24. The AF24 mutation is found in LOd and among the Khoisan and Senegalese .The existence of AF24 in Senegal and Southern Africa suggest that L1c, L2b, L3d and L3e is not the result of intermarriage with Bantu immigrants , as suggested by Rito et al(2013) .
LOd is the oldest mtDNA haplogroup . This haplogroup is primarily carried by the Khoisan people (Winters,2014) . It is also found among Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa where we also find LOa in West Africa in addition to L3b.
The Cro Magnon DNA found in the ancient skeletons dates back to the Aurignacian period (Winters,2011). The Cro magnon skeletons belong to the N haplogroup.
The Cro Magnon skeletons carried N1a,N1b,N1c and N* (Winters, 2010,2011). It is characterized by motifs 00073G,10873C, 10238T and A4CC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400. Most of the skeletons carried hg N*.
It is obvious that L3 (M,N) had expanded into Europe prior to the Neolithic. . .
Frigi et al (2010), in Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations noted that: “Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP)”.
This would explain why Pericot and Dominguez (2005) found evidence of hg L3 at ancient Iberian sites. Luis Pericot was sure that the populations associated with the Gravettian (32kya) and Soultrean (23kya) cultures were phylogenetically Sub-Saharan African (Dominguez,2005). Dominguez (2005) found that the lineages recovered from ancient skeletons associated with these cultures belonged to the African lineages L1b,L2 and L3. Almost 50% of the lineages from the Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre are the Sub-Saharan lineages L1b,L2 and L3.
In summary, the Black Berbers took African mtDNA into Western Europe over 40kya. The Tuareg probably helped spread hg H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Domínguez E.F. (2005). Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea. Universitat de Barcelona. Departament de Biologia Animal, 2005 (PhD thesis).
Frigi et al. (2010). Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations, Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4). Rito T, Richards MB, Fernandes V, Alshamali F, Cerny V, et al. (2013) The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa. PLoS ONE 8(11): e80031. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0080031
Winters,C. (2010). Origin and spread of the Haplogroup N. Bioresearch Bull (2010) 3:116-122.
Winters C.(2011). The Gibraltar Out of Africa Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans. WebmedCentral BIOLOGY 2011;2(10):WMC002319 doi: 10.9754/journal.wmc.2011.002319
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The most archaic AMH remains come from Florished, South Africa; they date between 190-330 kya. Other ancient fossil evidence of AMH in South Africa come from Broken Hill (c.110kya) and the Klasis River caves (c. 65-105kya).
The Khoisan early migrated into North Africa. As a result, we see shared cultural and behavioral traditions between 200-40kya among South Africans and Moroccans.
KHOISAN
The Khoisan carry haplogroups L3(M,N). Before they reached Iberia, they probably stopped in West Africa.
The hominids and tool kits common to South Africa also appear in Morocco. It is no secret that the earliest Y-chromosome haplogroups have been found in Morocco and among the Khoisan. These haplogroups belong to hg A (M91); among the Moroccans we find A1b and A1a.The Khoisan mtDNA was named originally L1a,L1d and L1k, these clades are called LoD and LoK today.
Morocco has yielded impotant new data on African prehistory. Here we find a complex and rich set of early hominids from Jebel Irhoud, Dar es-Soltan and Contrebandiers Cave.
A pan-African Middle Stone Age (MSA) culture existed that united South Africa and Morocco.The Moroccan tools are Levallois technology and Mousterian industries were used in South Africa,North Africa and western Eurasia. Dibble et al (2013) has shown that Pan-African industries included cognate scrapers, Levallois tools, Nassarius beads and engraved ostrich shells. The Moroccans and South Africans shared Levallois tools and the use of ochre, bone tools and ostrich shells. Bouaouggar et al (2007) has shown how the shell beads from Grotte des Pigeons (Taforalt,Morocco) and South Africa's Blombos Caves.
The archaeological evidence is clear the Khoisan in Morocco and South Africa shared behavioral , cognitive and technological styles. The major behavioral indicators shared by the Moroccan and South African Khoisan was mining,beads, blades, ochre and bone tools between 200-40kya. It is important to note that Moroccan tools are Levallois technologies and Mousterian industries used in North Africa and Western Eurasia. We also should note that Neanderthals also used Mousterian tools.
Granted L3 and L2 are not as old as LOd, but Gonder et al (2006)provides very early dates for this mtDNA e.g., L3(M,N) 94.3; the South African Khoisan (SAK) carry L1c, L1,L2,L3(M,N) dates to 142.3kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3(M,N), dates to 96.7kya.
The dates for L1,L2,L3, M,N are old enough for the Khoisan to have taken N to West Africa, where we find L3, L2 and LOd and thence to Iberia as I suggested in my paper (Winters,2011).
It is interesting to note that LO haplogroups are primarily found among Khoisan and West Africans. This shows that at some point in prehistory the Khoisan had migrated into West Africa on their way to Morocco.
The basal L3(M) motiff in West Africa is characterized by the Ddel site np 10394 and Alul site np 10397 associated with AF-24. This supports my contention that Khoisan speakers early settled West Africa on their way to Iberia.
The Khoisan may have introduced the L haplogroup to Iberia. The SAK populations carry haplogroups L2, and L3. Dominguez (2005) ,noted that much of the ancient mtDNA found in Iberia has no relationship to the people presently living in Iberia today and correspond to African mtDNA haplogroups .
The SAK carry haplogroups L1c, L1,L2,L3 M,N and dates to 142.3kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3, M,N, and dates to 96.7kya.
The dates for L1,L2,L3(M,N) are old enough for the Khoisan to have taken N to West Africa and thence Iberia.
Dominguez (2005) found that the lineages recovered from ancient Iberian skeletons are the African lineages L1b,L2 and L3. Almost 50% of the lineages from the Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre are the Sub-Saharan lineages L1b,L2 and L3. The appearance of phylogenetically related sequences of hg L3 present in many ancient Iberian skeletons suggest that this haplogroup may have a long history in Iberia. This would support the possibility that SAK populations early settled ancient Iberia.
The Neanderthal used Mousterian tools. These tools were also being used in Africa as early 130kya. This places Neanderthalers in North Africa.
The human types associated with the Neanderthal tools found at Jebel Ighoud and Haua Fteah resemble contemporaneous European Neanderthaler tools. The presence of Mousterian tools suggest that Neanderthalers mixed with Africans because we know that anatomically modern humans were living in the area at the time.
The African Neanderthal people used the common Levoiso-Mousterian tool kit originally discovered in Europe. The Nenderthal skeletons have come from Djebel Irhoud and El Guettar in Morocco (Ki-Zerbo,1981). Later Neanderthal people used the Aterian tool kit. It was probably in Morocco that Neanderthal and Khoisan interacted.
An exception to this norm are the Khoisan who share a phylogenic relationship with Altai Neanderthals (Prufer, et al, 2013). Many researchers claim that Africans have no relationship to the Neanderthals.But Prufer et al (2013) share more alleles with Altaic Neanderthal than Denisova.
In the Supplemental section of Prufer et al (2013) there is considerable discussion of the relationship between Neanderthal and Khoisan. In relation to the Altaic Neanderthal the non-Africans have a lower divergence rate than Africans between 10-20%. Prufer et al (2013) note little statistical difference between non-African and African divergence.
Researchers have observered a relationship between the Neanderthals, the Khoisan and Yoruba. Prufer et al (2013) detected a relationship between the Neanderthal and Mandekan. It is interesting to note that Yoruba traditions place them in Mande-speaking areas (Prufer et al,2013).
There is interesting information in Figure S7.1. In Figure S7.1 the maximum likelihood tree of bonobo, Denisova and Neanderthal, the closest present-day hmans are Africans, not Europeans. Reading the Tree Chart Graph, the neighbor joining tree of archaic and present day human individuals has the Khoisan following the Denisova.
An interesting finding of Prufer et al (2013) was that Altaic Neanderthal and Denisova are estimated to have similar split times. The divergence estimate for African Khoisan-Mandekan and Altaic is younger than the split between Africans and Denisova archaic individuals and modern African individuals. The split times between the Khoisan and Mandekan may be explained by the presence of AF-24 haplotype in West Africa.
The major problem with the paper is that the Prufer et al (2013)believe that there was a back-to-Africa migration of Eurasian genomes among West Africans people. This back migration probably did not occur. What we do know is that the ancient Kushite people belonged to the C-Group. The C-Group people spoke Niger-Congo and Dravidian languages.
The Kushites founded many civilizations in Eurasia including the Sumerian and Elamite civilizations. The Kushites may have spread L3(M) and y-chromosome R haplogroup in Eurasia. This suggest that so-called Eurasian genomes are the result of admixtures of Europeans and Kushites.
In summary the Khoisan early settled Morocco. From here they interacted with Neanderthal populations. Later the Khoisan migrated into Iberia an deposited many genomes of the L clade and L3(N) macrohaplogroup.
Reference:
de Domínguez E.F. Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea. Universitat de Barcelona. Departament Biologia Animal, 2005 (PhD thesis).
Gonder MK, Mortensen HM, Reed FA, de Sousa A, Tishkoff SA. (2006). Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages. Mol Biol Evol. 2006 Dec 28.
Ki-Zerbo,J. (1981). Unesco General History of Africa Vol. 1: Methodology and African Prehistory (1981), pg.572.
Pruler,K, Racimo,F.,Patterson,N et al. (2014). The complete genome sequences of Neanderthal from the Altai, Mountains. Nature , 505/7481: 43-9. doi .10.1038/ Nature 12881.Epub.2013.Dec.18.
Scozzari, R, Massaia,A, Trombatta,B. et al.(2014). An unbiased resource of novel SNP markers provides a new chronology for human Y-chromosome and reveals a deep phylogenetic structure in Africa. Genome Research, January 6,2014, doi: 10.1101/gr./60785.113.
Moreover, the Amazigh are not older Africans than Yorubans. The ancestors of the Amazigh were predominately Germanic, why do you think they would be older than the Yoruba? The Atlas Berbers who still show Khoisan features and ancestry are probably older than the Yoruba.
Ish Gebor, you hear this, this Winters dude is promoting back migration theory on berbers, wtf ???
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Agreed! Real Amazigh has Khosian features. I know that now. See my thread on Berbers on ESR. But the fact is E1b1 is >15,000years older than E1b1a. Amazigh are primarily E1b1b and J1. They are indigenous Africans. They do NOT carry R1b-M269. They are NOT Europeans. Keep in mind Hadza, Khoi-San and Ju Hansui(sp) carry a para-clade of E1b1b. Meaning there ai an ancient connection between Amazigh and HG of South Africa. Yorubans are Neolithics
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^^ This person very, very unusual. Khosian "bushman" do not have this type of hair, not in the least. They have the least striaght hair on the planet. The above man is likely of Asian ancestry maybe mixed with African. If he has Khosian ancestry one of his parents would have to be Asain or European. Even then the person would not have bone straight hair hair like that, it would be curly. The caption says "bushman-like" features. His ancestry is unknown
many Khosians are mixed with bantu. However with with many of rural people you see the distinctive "peppercorn" hair where you see many clumps of hair in a regular pattern with their scalp showing in between. Another distintive feature in some is Steatopygia
Steatopygia is the state of having substantial levels of tissue on the buttocks and thighs. This build is not confined to the gluteal regions, but extends to the outside and front of the thighs, and tapers to the knee producing a curvaceous figure. It has also been observed among the Pygmies of Central Africa and the Onge tribe of the Andaman Islands.
Their Y DNA is perdominantly haplogroup A and B, which far predate both E and R haplogroups. It is unknown wherther or not they are the oldest type of human still living known or it's some group of East Africans
Obviously original routes of migration out of Africa are likely over land rather than over sea
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That is why we have to question what we read. The genetics do not corraborate what is “written”
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Moreover, the Amazigh are not older Africans than Yorubans. The ancestors of the Amazigh were predominately Germanic, why do you think they would be older than the Yoruba? The Atlas Berbers who still show Khoisan features and ancestry are probably older than the Yoruba.
Ish Gebor, you hear this, this Winters dude is promoting back migration theory on berbers, wtf ???
Liar. I don't support a back migrtion. There was no back migration for the North African Khoisan Berbers. Some migrated to Iberia, others remained in North Africa. .
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Agreed! Real Amazigh has Khosian features. I know that now. See my thread on Berbers on ESR. But the fact is E1b1 is >15,000years older than E1b1a. Amazigh are primarily E1b1b and J1. They are indigenous Africans. They do NOT carry R1b-M269. They are NOT Europeans. Keep in mind Hadza, Khoi-San and Ju Hansui(sp) carry a para-clade of E1b1b. Meaning there ai an ancient connection between Amazigh and HG of South Africa. Yorubans are Neolithics
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I don't think so.
They don't look like Khoisan to me!
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True Berbers, light skin or dark skin, have the characteristic high cheek bones and wide space between eyes. Khosian, Australians have the same features. As I said in my other thread. Just by looking at Ronaldo I speculated he had Berber ancestry. Later I confirmed that. This may be an archaic feature that was never lost. Many North Africans are Ottoman Turks, they are NOT Amazigh. But it can be confusing to the layman. Some of the women in that pic ARE Amazigh.
The woman in the top left is definitely Amazigh/Berber.
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^^ This person very, very unusual. Khosian "bushman" do not have this type of hair, not in the least. They have the least striaght hair on the planet. The above man is likely of Asian ancestry maybe mixed with African. If he has Khosian ancestry one of his parents would have to be Asain or European. Even then the person would not have bone straight hair hair like that, it would be curly. The caption says "bushman-like" features. His ancestry is unknown
many Khosians are mixed with bantu. However with with many of rural people you see the distinctive "peppercorn" hair where you see many clumps of hair in a regular pattern with their scalp showing in between. Another distintive feature in some is Steatopygia
Steatopygia is the state of having substantial levels of tissue on the buttocks and thighs. This build is not confined to the gluteal regions, but extends to the outside and front of the thighs, and tapers to the knee producing a curvaceous figure. It has also been observed among the Pygmies of Central Africa and the Onge tribe of the Andaman Islands.
Their Y DNA is perdominantly haplogroup A and B, which far predate both E and R haplogroups. It is unknown wherther or not they are the oldest type of human still living known or it's some group of East Africans
Obviously original routes of migration out of Africa are likely over land rather than over sea
fee: $10
What a load of crack pot.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Agreed! Real Amazigh has Khosian features. I know that now. See my thread on Berbers on ESR. But the fact is E1b1 is >15,000years older than E1b1a. Amazigh are primarily E1b1b and J1. They are indigenous Africans. They do NOT carry R1b-M269. They are NOT Europeans. Keep in mind Hadza, Khoi-San and Ju Hansui(sp) carry a para-clade of E1b1b. Meaning there ai an ancient connection between Amazigh and HG of South Africa. Yorubans are Neolithics
Primarily you're correct. The M269 is sooooo minimal. Highest it is at Bahariya. Obviously it was introduced recently in history. My guess is within the last few thousand of years. We have to analyze when this could have happened.
And of you read between the lines, you'll notice how they lie about their multiple back migrations, all over Africa.
It also shows the that lioness is loony in the head.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: True Berbers, light skin or dark skin, have the characteristic high cheek bones and wide space between eyes. Khosian, Australians have the same features. As I said in my other thread. Just by looking at Ronaldo I speculated he had Berber ancestry. Later I confirmed that. This may be an archaic feature that was never lost. Many North Africans are Ottoman Turks, they are NOT Amazigh. But it can be confusing to the layman. Some of the women in that pic ARE Amazigh.
The woman in the top left is definitely Amazigh/Berber.
All these women are Amazigh. They have a Germanic background dating back to the Vandels.
True Berbers are Taureg and Atlas (Mountain ) Berbers--not Amazigh.
Also Khoisan and Australians do not look alike. Australians have the most archaic humanoid features. .
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: True Berbers, light skin or dark skin, have the characteristic high cheek bones and wide space between eyes. Khosian, Australians have the same features. As I said in my other thread. Just by looking at Ronaldo I speculated he had Berber ancestry. Later I confirmed that. This may be an archaic feature that was never lost. Many North Africans are Ottoman Turks, they are NOT Amazigh. But it can be confusing to the layman. Some of the women in that pic ARE Amazigh.
The woman in the top left is definitely Amazigh/Berber.
posted
Ahem!!!! Genius! R1bM269 at 2% ....is not a lot.
And if I am betting man. My money is on the African version is older than the European version. Busby where you at? Tic! Toc! Show us the latitudinal cline you talked about.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Amazigh are primarily E1b1b and J1. They are indigenous Africans. They do NOT carry R1b-M269.
wrong,Cruciani 2010
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Eur J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar; 21(3): 324–331. Published online 2012 Aug 15. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2012.167 PMCID: PMC3573200
The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88 Miguel González et. al
In our sample, R1b1 was the second most frequently observed haplogroup, which was present in 17% of the sample. Ten out of the nineteen chromosomes that belong to this haplogroup present the M269-derived allele,
. 17% of the samples were R1b1
R1b1 in this situation could be R1b1c (R-V88). or it could be R1b1a2 (R-M269) So it says of the 17% 10 of 19 were M269 than that is about 53% of 17, that is about 9%, if I have the math correct,
posted
lol @ the above^ Have trouble admitting the seven mutations. LOL at the fake mass back migrations.
quote: "Scientists at Zurich-based DNA genealogy centre, iGENEA, say they have reconstructed the DNA profile of the boy Pharaoh based on a film that was made for the Discovery Channel."
Among modern-day Egyptians this haplogroup contingent is below 1 per cent, according to iGENEA.
[...]
"Carsten Pusch, a geneticist at the University of Tubingen in Germany, was part of the team that constructed King Tut's DNA from samples taken from his mummified remains, and those of his relatives.
Pusch said that iGENEA's claims are 'simply impossible' because they did not publish the data for Tut's Y-chomosome - found only in males - which would reveal his male descendants, and accused the company of a marketing gimmick."
1) The Ribia profile occurs in LESS THAN 1% of modern Egyptians. Per IGNEA itself: "In Egypt the contingent of this haplogroup is below 1%.."
(http://www.igenea.com/en/index.php?c=62). Assorted "HDB" racists like to talk about "continuity" of the ancients into modern times, and here they are hoist on their own petard. If Tut's DNA is "more related to Europeans" and such DNA is of trivial occurrence in today's Egypt, then their precious "Caucasoid Egypt" is blown out of the water, and shown for the trivial chump change that it is.
2) The minor trivia that is R1b1a2 occurs mostly in northern Egypt, but even here assorted "biodiversity" celebrations come up short. Among its strong representatives are peoples of the Siwa Oasis, (Cruciani et al 2010. Y-chromosome of R-V88) people who cluster mostly with Sub-Saharan Africans than Europeans or "Middle Easterners" (COudray et al 2008)
3) Even sOme "biodiversity" types are waffling over the latest revelation. On Dinkines blog, he mocked iGNEA earlier for using too broad categories, now he also is unsure about the new Tut findings noting that the Y-Chromosome of Tut has never been scientifically published and validated, and that credible scientists find reported claims about Tut's DNA to be sloppy science work. See:
IGNAEA continues use of the same shaky methods. Direct sequencing of YTtTut data was not done. They used a proxy method of analysis, filmed by the discovery Channel. QUOTE: "iGENEA was able to reconstruct the Y-DNA profile of Tutankhamun, his father Akhenaten and his grandfather Amenhotep III with the help of a recording of the Discovery Channel."
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ahem!!!! Genius! R1bM269 at 2% ....is not a lot.
And if I am betting man. My money is on the African version is older than the European version. Busby where you at? Tic! Toc! Show us the latitudinal cline you talked about.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Amazigh are primarily E1b1b and J1. They are indigenous Africans. They do NOT carry R1b-M269.
wrong,Cruciani 2010
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Moreover, the Amazigh are not older Africans than Yorubans. The ancestors of the Amazigh were predominately Germanic, why do you think they would be older than the Yoruba? The Atlas Berbers who still show Khoisan features and ancestry are probably older than the Yoruba.
,
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Ice Age, came to Europe and many Khoisan fled into the caves , became depigmented and evolved into the white race.
So if you mixed one of these depigmented Khosians ^^
posted
As a side note. Another interesting observation is of all the recent aDNA studies released, especially Iberia and southern Italy, there doesn’t seem to be any mtDNA hg-L discovered. About 10ya they were finding mtDNA L in aDNA in Europe. That seemed to have “stopped”, which is odd. Is mtDNA hg-L being removed from the aDNA data set in Southern Europe?. Remember the work done by Eva Gonzales confirmed mtDNA L in the Neolithic Levant but primarily hg-H and K.
Remember in some of Gonzales earlier work she found as much as 50% mtDNA L in Iberia aDNA. All Cited on ESR.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As a side note. Another interesting observation is of all the recent aDNA studies released, especially Iberia and southern Italy, there doesn’t seem to be any mtDNA hg-L discovered. About 10ya they were finding mtDNA L in aDNA in Europe. That seemed to have “stopped”, which is odd. Is mtDNA hg-L being removed from the aDNA data set in Southern Europe?. Remember the work done by Eva Gonzales confirmed mtDNA L in the Neolithic Levant but primarily hg-H and K.
Remember in some of Gonzales earlier work she found as much as 50% mtDNA L in Iberia aDNA. All Cited on ESR.
Africans more genetically diverse than rest of world
Michael Novacek, the provost of science at the Museum of Natural History, joins Martin Savidge to discuss the implications of the study, how it was conducted and Africas importance to genetic research
Moreover, the Amazigh are not older Africans than Yorubans. The ancestors of the Amazigh were predominately Germanic, why do you think they would be older than the Yoruba? The Atlas Berbers who still show Khoisan features and ancestry are probably older than the Yoruba.
,
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Ice Age, came to Europe and many Khoisan fled into the caves , became depigmented and evolved into the white race.
So if you mixed one of these depigmented Khosians ^^
with this un-Khosian looking Tuareg >>
You would get something like this mulatto person
More low I.Q nonsense here. Dumb white supremacist.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As a side note. Another interesting observation is of all the recent aDNA studies released, especially Iberia and southern Italy, there doesn’t seem to be any mtDNA hg-L discovered. About 10ya they were finding mtDNA L in aDNA in Europe. That seemed to have “stopped”, which is odd. Is mtDNA hg-L being removed from the aDNA data set in Southern Europe?. Remember the work done by Eva Gonzales confirmed mtDNA L in the Neolithic Levant but primarily hg-H and K.
Remember in some of Gonzales earlier work she found as much as 50% mtDNA L in Iberia aDNA. All Cited on ESR.
Africans more genetically diverse than rest of world
Michael Novacek, the provost of science at the Museum of Natural History, joins Martin Savidge to discuss the implications of the study, how it was conducted and Africas importance to genetic research
" There have always been people with lighter skin and straighter hair, always. They're not new. That's my whole point. In fact I could make the argument that those kinds of chracteristics actually originated in Africa, that they didn't coem from some place else"
So xyyman you're wrong.
White Euroepans are not depigmented Africans.
They are Africans.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As a side note. Another interesting observation is of all the recent aDNA studies released, especially Iberia and southern Italy, there doesn’t seem to be any mtDNA hg-L discovered. About 10ya they were finding mtDNA L in aDNA in Europe. That seemed to have “stopped”, which is odd. Is mtDNA hg-L being removed from the aDNA data set in Southern Europe?. Remember the work done by Eva Gonzales confirmed mtDNA L in the Neolithic Levant but primarily hg-H and K.
Remember in some of Gonzales earlier work she found as much as 50% mtDNA L in Iberia aDNA. All Cited on ESR.
Africans more genetically diverse than rest of world
Michael Novacek, the provost of science at the Museum of Natural History, joins Martin Savidge to discuss the implications of the study, how it was conducted and Africas importance to genetic research
As you know, I know Berber people. I know there are "some" Berbers with blonde hair. Despite of this being rare, they consider themselves indigenous to Africa. And will feel insulted if anyone tells them different.
Is a difficult thing, because even other Moroccans say they probably have a different root. What I did notice eversince I was a kid, is that the Northern population (coastal), when they have babies, a lot of the childeren have somewhat blonde hair, then later as they grow up it becomes dark. The blue I thing is rare over all. I only have seen one, over here. She had thick curly hair, blue eyes, but "negroid characteristics". I remember how whites looked at her funny.
Kind of like this:
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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" There have always been people with lighter skin and straighter hair, always. They're not new. That's my whole point. In fact I could make the argument that those kinds of chracteristics actually originated in Africa, that they didn't coem from some place else"
So xyyman you're wrong.
White Euroepans are not depigmented Africans.
They are Africans.
The white supremacist is back it people. Once again, shining and exposing.
See, it's hard to keep up an act. At some point you start making cranked up mistakes. In your case you've made a lot of mistakes over the years. And if you actually true watched the video by Khilad and looked at the picture of the people, you would not have come up with this nonsense statement.
Second, Keita doesn't say white, he says; lighter skin and straighter hair!
Like La Brana could have been light skinned, or perhaps dark completed.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Also included with this second (OOA) group were Albinos, who were probably motivated by a quest for relief from the heat and burning Sunshine of southern Africa - and relief from the torment heaped upon them by normal Africans. Even today, superstitious Blacks of southern Africa; maim and mutilate Albinos in the ignorant belief that their body parts process magical properties, which they use in rituals.
Also included with this second (OOA) group were Albinos, who were probably motivated by a quest for relief from the heat and burning Sunshine of southern Africa - and relief from the torment heaped upon them by normal Africans. Even today, superstitious Blacks of southern Africa; maim and mutilate Albinos in the ignorant belief that their body parts process magical properties, which they use in rituals.
@ the white supremacist going desperate. As a matter of fact the video by Nile Valley People addresses albinism, you nutjob!
"There are 800 shades for black people, West africans are not only dark skin with flat noses as people may think. Blacks are the most diverse population in the World, here's an example of this diversity."
" There have always been people with lighter skin and straighter hair, always. They're not new. That's my whole point. In fact I could make the argument that those kinds of chracteristics actually originated in Africa, that they didn't coem from some place else"
So xyyman you're wrong.
White Euroepans are not depigmented Africans.
They are Africans.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
xyyman has been vindicated by S.O.Y. Keita, but perhaps S.O.Y. took it a step further
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: True Berbers, light skin or dark skin, have the characteristic high cheek bones and wide space between eyes. Khosian, Australians have the same features. As I said in my other thread. Just by looking at Ronaldo I speculated he had Berber ancestry. Later I confirmed that. This may be an archaic feature that was never lost. Many North Africans are Ottoman Turks, they are NOT Amazigh. But it can be confusing to the layman. Some of the women in that pic ARE Amazigh.
The woman in the top left is definitely Amazigh/Berber.
All these women are Amazigh. They have a Germanic background dating back to the Vandels.
True Berbers are Taureg and Atlas (Mountain ) Berbers--not Amazigh.
Also Khoisan and Australians do not look alike. Australians have the most archaic humanoid features. .
So Amajegh isnt the Taureg origin of Amazigh?
Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: So Amajegh isnt the Taureg origin of Amazigh?
Amazigh
Amazigh is a cognate in the Tuareg word "Amajegh" or "Amaheg", meaning "noble". The modern self-designation Imazighen (singular Amazigh) apparently derives from the name of the Mazikes mentioned in Byzantine sources.[citation needed] The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines mentioned various tribes with similar names living in Greater Libya (North Africa) in the areas where Berbers were later found. Later tribal names differ from the classical sources, but are probably still related to the modern Amazigh. The Meshwesh tribe among them represents the first thus identified from the field. Scholars believe it would be the same tribe called a few centuries after in Greek Mazyes by Hektaios and Maxyes by Herodotus, while it was called after that the "Mazaces" and "Mazax" in Latin sources, and related to the later Massylii and Masaesyli. All those names are similar and perhaps foreign renditions to the name used by the Berbers in general for themselves, Imazighen. Laredo (1954) proposed that the name Amazigh could be derived from the name of the ancestor Mezeg which is the translation of biblical ancestor Dedan son of Sheba in the Targum. According to Leo Africanus, Amazigh meant "free man".[citation needed] Etymologically, the name may be related to the well attested "aze" strong, "Tizzit" bravery, or "jeghegh"to be brave/courageous. The latter might also be related to the Arabic "Jahada" to wage war/apply ones self to.
Berber
The term Berber is a variation of the Greek original word barbaros ("barbarian"), earlier in history applied by Romans specifically to their northern hostile neighbors from Germania (modern Germany) and Celts, Iberians, Gauls, Goths and Thracians. The variation is a French one when spelled Berbere and English when spelled Berber. The term appeared first in the 4th century in the religious conflicts between Saint Augustine, a Numidian Berber-Roman bishop of the Catholic faith, and the Berber Donatists of the Donatism faith who were allies of the Barbarian Vandals. The Vandals migrated from Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal) where they were assailed by the Gauls allied to the Romans, and settled west of the Roman city of Carthage (in modern Tunisia) in the highlands (in modern Algeria). The Greek term "βάρβαρος / βάρβαροι" was originally a term for all non-Greek speakers, not necessarily used derogatively. The nonsense syllables "bar-bar" have no meaning in Greek; the term implied that all languages other than Greek were a collection of nonsense syllables. The term has been variously translated as "stutterers," "stammerers," or "babblers." The term did in origin refer to any people of "incomprehensible speech", including Persia and Egypt; its connotation of uncivilized rudeness, now the primary meaning of the term "barbarian", appears to have emerged in the Roman era or with the Migration period. Because the Berbers were called Al-Barbar by the Arabs, the early modern Barbary seems to be a re-adoption of the name from Arabic.[citation needed] Muslim historiography has an eponymous Barbar as the ancestor of the Berbers, "the Berbers were the descendants of Barbar, the son of Tamalla, the son of Mazigh, the son of Canaan, the son of Ham, the son of Noah" (Ibn Khaldun, The History of Ibn Khaldun, Chapter 3).
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007).
Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004).
Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %).
Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking.
[...]
Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).
—S Triki-Fendri, A Rebai 2015
Synthetic review on the genetic relatedness between North Africa and Arabia deduced from paternal lineage distributions
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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What did you just say? White people are Africans? See my Barbujani thread os ESR 
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