This is topic Artifacts in the Nubian Museum in Aswan in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010229

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




Statue of Prince Horemakhet, High priest of Amun, 25th dynasty.
(photo kairoinfo4u on Flickr)



Harwa (TT 37) – a high official of the Twenty-fifth Dynasty (unesco)


Amenirdis I, daughter of Kashta and sister of Piankhy (unesco)


Statue of a Queen and a Prince
(photo kairoinfo4u on Flickr)


Head of King Shabatka. 25 Dyn. Granite. Nubian Museum Aswan. Neferkare Shabaka (or Shabako) was a Kushite pharaoh of the Twenty-fifth dynasty of Egypt, who reigned from 721 BC–707/706 BC.



Replica of a Wooden Set of Nubian Archers Found in the Tomb of Asyut (11th Dynasty)
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



--Historical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Nubia
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

Mummified sheep, Nubian Museum, Aswan
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.

---

That's not true. I have been there myself. And the murals, statues etc. all look like EXACTLY the people who reside there till this present time and day. This is what they look like:





Things throughout time have been tangled up and confused by these Eurocentric scholars who tried to "teach" about Africa.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.

Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.

Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.

---

The obsession is indeed astonishing. And the modern people of France aren't the same as those from ancient times, the medieval or the classical period.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

During the 1960s, construction of the High Dam approximately 10 km up the Nile from Aswan created a 500 km-long reservoir, with a surface area of over 5000 km2. Named Lake Nubia in the Sudan and Lake Nasser in Egypt, the reservoir extends into the Sudan and required the relocation of at least 100,000 Nubians. This chapter deals only with High Dam impacts on the 48,000 Egyptian Nubians resettled between October 1963 and June 1964.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.

---

That's not true. I have been there myself. And the murals, statues etc. all look like EXACTLY the people who reside there till this present time and day. This is what they look like:





Things throughout time have been tangled up and confused by these Eurocentric scholars who tried to "teach" about Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:



--Historical Dictionary of Ancient and Medieval Nubia

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.

Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.

Hence, the idea that "Nubia" existed 10,000 years ago is purely anachronistic and made up to serve the aims of Egyptologists in separating Africa from ancient Dynastic KMT. The people in these same areas today are not the same, don't practice the same culture and don't speak the same language. Of course in both France and Sudan there are people who descend from the ancient populations, but that doesn't make the ancient people "Nubian" or "French" as an ethnic, cultural, linguistic or racial identifier. European scholars don't do this in Europe but they do it in the Nile Valley because they have an agenda.

---

If Egyptologists are using the term “Nubia” as a separate entity from Egypt for the sole purpose of disconnecting the present day Nubians from their Egyptian heritage. Then that would make the African-Centered Egyptologists just as guilty because most Black Egyptologists have promoted Nubia as some separate entity from Egypt and synonymous with Kush. So you cannot claim Egypt was Black and then in the same breath speak of “NWB” as a separate entity when the term simply referenced Gold areas in Egypt and never meant a separate place or people from Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Its funny because the First Nome of Egypt, Ta-Seti..from Aswan to Luxor was once a "Nubian" kingdom that was incorporated into the Egyptian empire very early and remained a vital part of Egyptian/Pharonic culture and history.

Why dont they call the folks living in Aswan to Luxor "Nubians" and the Pharoahs, customs, rituals, and Gods(Amun) as Nubian Black Pharoahs..How odd that they pick and choose at will.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Dinka are The Kushites because they still carry the name. The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan. Throughout The Pharaonic period The Egyptians depicted The Kushites as Cattle-Herders with that same dark orange cow urine hair dye that The Dinka use today. Herodotus gave a description of The Kushites being the tallest people in the world exactly like The Dinka. These are all facts that can’t be ignored or explained away.

---

One thing you first need to do is segment the groups that lived in the region and still live in the region. You can take it from there.

Wall Painting of Temple of Beit El-Wali (Plaster Cast), which Ramses II Constructed in Nubia- British Museum



Please, post images along so we know what you are referring at. I suspect this is what you are referring at?






 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Dinka are The Kushites because they still carry the name. The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan. Throughout The Pharaonic period The Egyptians depicted The Kushites as Cattle-Herders with that same dark orange cow urine hair dye that The Dinka use today. Herodotus gave a description of The Kushites being the tallest people in the world exactly like The Dinka. These are all facts that can’t be ignored or explained away.

---

One thing you first need to do is segment the groups that lived in the region and still live in the region. You can take it from there.

Please, post images along so we know what you are referring at. I suspect this is what you are referring at?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.

---

But you need to explain who the people are who now claim to be the Nubians and from where this mislabeling came.

I met one guy at Aswan, who looked like a Dinka. I had a little talk with him and the old me that he's Nubian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Dinka word for people is “KOC”. There’s even a place called Koch County in South Sudan.

---

so what does the word Koc have to do with Kushites?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Because those ''Nubian Museums'' are all made up of Kushite/Sudanese artifacts and not artifacts from the gold mining areas of Egypt where The Nubians have always lived. That is the problem I have. They are trying to claim The Nubians of Aswan are from Kush/Sudan when they NEVER came from Sudan and take offense if you call them Sudanese. That's the issue. They are creating museums of Kushite artifacts and intentionally mislabeling them ''Nubian'' artifacts to make The Nubians believe that Kushite history is their history when Kushite history is truly Dinka/Nuer history.

---

But you need to explain who the people are who now claim to be the Nubians and from where this mislabeling came.

I met one guy at Aswan, who looked like a Dinka. I had a little talk with him and the old me that he's Nubian.

---

That Nubian man you met is an Indigenous Egyptian and his ancestors have been living in Aswan since the time of Ta-Seti. He has nothing to do with The historical Sudanese empire of Kush regardless of what he looks like. His people The Nubians later migrated to Sudan and that is where the confusion began because they pushed The Dinka/Nuer out of Northern Sudan and further into South Sudan.

---

See this is what we are talking about: "The Nubians later migrated to Sudan and that is where the confusion began because they pushed"

You don't have the terminology in place, so it all becomes very confusing. Who are you referring at here?

The Nubians you are referring at now in this post are people you can see on murals and statues.


Is it these people:





Or these people:




Murals at Aswan (what the vast majority looks like):




 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.

---

quote:

---

Rilly (2010) distinguishes the following Nubian languages, spoken by in total about 900,000 speakers:

1) Nobiin, the largest Nubian language with 545,000 speakers in Egypt, Sudan, and the Nubian diaspora. Previously known by the geographic terms Mahas and Fadicca/Fiadicca. As late as 1863 this language, or a closely related dialect, was known to have been spoken by the arabized Nubian Shaigiya tribe.[5]

2) Kenzi (endonym: Mattokki) with 100,000 speakers in Egypt and Dongolawi (endonym: Andaandi) with 180,000 speakers in Sudan. They are no longer considered a single language, but closely related. The split between Kenzi and Dongolawi is dated relatively recently to the 14th century.

3) Midob (Meidob) with 30,000 speakers. The language is spoken primarily in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.

4) Birgid, spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei until the 1970s. Was the predominant language between the corridor of Nyala and al-Fashir in the north and the Bahr al-Arab in the south as recent as 1860.[6]

5) Kordofan Nubian, a group of closely related dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains; in particular by the Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
@Ish Gebor I am talking about The Nubian people dressed in Islamic clothing in the 2nd image I'm talking about those Nuba wrestlers in the 1st image. I have mentioned many times that Nubians and Nuba are two different people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.

---

Nubian is a broader term,the Kushites being one of the Nubian groups

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
@Ish Gebor I am talking about The Nubian people dressed in Islamic clothing in the 2nd image I'm talking about those Nuba wrestlers in the 1st image. I have mentioned many times that Nubians and Nuba are two different people.

---

Ok, but who are the people in the Islamic clothes (djellaba), who we can see in the abundance of murals and statues? If I recall it correctly you stated th tha they moved to "Egypt" recently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
How can The Nubians be Kushites when their homeland is in Southern Egypt?. The Nubians in Northern Sudan belong in Southern Egypt. They aren't Indigenous to Northern Sudan.

---

Nubian is a broader term,the Kushites being one of the Nubian groups

---

The Ancient Egyptian words NWB(Nubian) and KAS(Kush)are not synonymous and are unrelated. You keep playing in to the Egyptologist myth of a ''Nubian'' people distinct from Egyptians when no such distinction existed. There was Egypt(KMT) and Kush(KAS).

---

quote:

---

General chronology of Upper Egypt, Nubia and Central Sudan revised in light of the recent results from the Kerma area.





Map of Egypt and Nubia with the location of the main area where a chronological framework was established for Holocene prehistory. Between them is located the area of Kerma from where are coming the new data presented in this paper. Other sites mentioned in the text are indicated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
I will have to take the time to fully read those links. However The Nubian Language was not able to decipher The Meroitic Script so that proves today's Nubians regardless if they speak a Nilo-Saharan language were not the historical people of Meroe. We have the names Kush and Nehesy surviving in The Dinka/Nuer languages as ''KOC/KAS'' and ''NAATH/NATH''.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
That's true but if The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt(Which The Egyptian government recognizes) then how could they be the people of Ancient Kush?. Kush was further South in Napata, Meroe ETC. The Dinka still carry the name ''KOC''. There is a placed called Koch County in South Sudan. The Dinka match the description Herodotus gave of The Kushites and also the depictions The Ancient Egyptians made of Kushites. Now with all of this being said we cannot claim that The Nubians are Kushites because they are Ethnically distinct from The Dinka.

---

quote:

---

Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies reported Nubians to be more similar to Egyptians and Ethiopians than to other Nilo-Saharan populations.....



A random subset of 18 individuals from each population was selected to avoid sample size bias. Columns represent individuals, where the size of each colour segment represents the proportion of ancestry from each cluster. Although k = 3 is the statistically supported model, here we show the results from k = 2 through k = 5 as they explain several ancestral components: North African/Middle Eastern (dark blue), Sub-Saharan (light blue), Coptic/Cushitic (dark green), Nilo-Saharan (light green) and Fulani (pink). MKK = Maasai from Kinyawa, Kenya; LWK = Luhya from Webuye, Kenya; YRI = Yoruba from Ibadan, Nigeria.

Populations from the North-East cluster: Beja, Ethiopians, Arabs and Nubians (Table 2) may be explained as admixture products of an ancestral North African population (similar to Copts).

Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. S1a). Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies reported Nubians to be more similar to Egyptians than to other Nilo-Saharan populations1,8: Nubians were influenced by Arabs as a direct result of the penetration of large numbers of Arabs into the Nile Valley over long periods of time following the arrival of Islam around 651 A.D20.

Interestingly, our analyses shows a unique ancestry for Sudanese Nilo-Saharan speaking groups (Darfurians and Nuba) related to Nilotes of South Sudan, but not to other Sudanese populations or sub-Saharan populations (Fig. 3).

This ancestral component is not present in places where the Bantu expansion left a strong footprint and creates a different genetic background that is not found among most African populations. Tishkoff et al.5. reported a common ancestry of Nilo-Saharan speaking populations. We also found this relationship of Nilo-Saharan Sudanese populations with other Nilo-Saharan populations from Kenya (Maasai), but not as strong, as Maasai show their own genetic component at k = 6, which is different from the Sudanese component (Supplementary Fig. S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations. In a previous Y-chromosome study8, most Nilo-Saharan speaking populations, except Nubians, showed little evidence of gene flow with other Sudanese populations.

The presence of the core of Nilo-Saharan languages in the confluence of the two Nile rivers suggests that the Sudanese region is the place of origin of the Nilo-Saharan linguistic family despite their fragmented distribution, as shown by the location of the Nubian language21,22. It is interesting to note that Nuba populations constitute an homogeneous group, even if some speak Kordofanian (of the Niger-Kordofanian family) and others different languages of two branches of the Nilo-Saharan family. Their genetic composition denotes their Nilo-Saharan origin, with linguistic replacements in some groups.

Population displacement, whether it is followed with cultural or genetic exchange with local populations, would explain why not every Nilo-Saharan speaking group has this genetic component (as is the case of Nubians) and not every population that has it is mainly formed by Nilo-Saharan speakers (as is the case of Niger-Kordofanian speaking Nuba).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

These are The Dinka/Nuer People not the people called Nubians today.

---

What?!! Now I know you are confused! The people Lioness posted have NOTHING to do with Dinka/Nuer except they were included in their Kushite Empire but were themselves not Kushite!

---

Wrong. They are THE! Kushites. I already stated numerous times that The Dinka/Nuer are The direct descendants of The Ancient Kushites. I posted on numerous occasions about the word Kush surviving today as ''KOC/KAS'' in The Dinka language. I've posted about Koch County in South Sudan. I've posted about Herodotus's description of The people of Meroe as being the tallest people in the world. I've posted about how The Dinka are cattle-herders like The Ancient Kushites. I've posted about The Greek vases that depict The Kushites with the same exact orange cow urine grooming practice. I've said a Zillion times that The Nubians are Indigenous to Southern Egypt and that their name derives from The city of Nubt which is located in The Aswan Governate where they originated and emerged as a people and where they were granted a right to return. I've made it abundantly clear from my first post that The Nubians have nothing to do with Kush but were and have always been Indigenous Egyptians and that they have never claimed nor have an oral history of a migration.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
I think we are spending too much time trying to reconcile something that is not reconcilable.
Ancient "Nubia" never existed and there is no way to identify a "Nubian" people from 4,000 years ago because they didn't exist. Just like every other part of Africa, the Nile Valley had many different ethnic groups and languages over its long history. Lumping some of them together in history is purely in service of Egyptology trying to claim Egypt as separate from Africa in ancient times.

Therefore, it is impossible to reconcile modern "Nubian" people with the "Nubians" of Egyptology. They aren't the same even if the modern Nubians still live in Aswan and are less impacted by Arab culture and mixture. They simply represent the purest example of what ancient Egyptians looked like along with other Egyptians in the country to this day.

Everything else about the Dinka and Nuer and all these other groups have nothing to do with ancient Nubia. The Nobatae are not ancient Nubians nor are the Nuba or Sudanese from Khartoum and Meroe. These other groups were NEVER part of Nubia even in ancient times. Again, this is a made up concept for the purposes of Egyptology dividing up Africa.

So given that, why are people still using it as core of this debate? That makes no sense. We can discuss the diversity of African ethnic groups, languages and cultures without forcing them into frameworks of identity created by Non Africans for their own agendas.

To that point, the "Nubian" museum is not displaying artifacts from the flooding of Lake Aswan which are within the borders of Egypt along with the modern people called "Nubian". They are displaying artifacts from many miles to the South around Meroe and Kush. Those people were never of a shared identity as Nubians even to this day. The museum is designed to lump the people of Aswan with the people of Meroe and Kush when they never were part of any unified culture or identity, not in the medieval period, not in the early Christian era, not in the Roman Era and not today. It is completely a fabrication of Egyptologists.

The Nubian Museum in Aswan should be showcasing stuff from within Upper Egypt in the area between Aswan and the 2nd cataract not areas further South around the 4th or 5th Cataract. Those are not the same people.

The fact is the reason so many artifacts from Kush are in the museum is because in reality the areas between Aswan and the 2nd cataract were always considered as part of Egypt, even in the dynastic era.

Hence:



This is how the British depicted these statues in Color in 1855:

http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/lambeth/lambeth-assets/galleries/crystal-palace/colossi-1855

Taken from 'Photographic Views of The Crystal Palace' by Phillip H.Delamotte'

quote:

---

The Great Exhibition of the Works of Industry of All Nations or The Great Exhibition (sometimes referred to as the Crystal Palace Exhibition in reference to the temporary structure in which it was held), an international exhibition, took place in Hyde Park, London, from 1 May to 15 October 1851. It was the first in a series of World's Fairs, exhibitions of culture and industry that became popular in the 19th century.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


So what the hell was a nubian?

---

A Nehesy
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


the word Nubia may or may not have been derived from
the city of Nubt
___________________________________________


.




This term "Nubia" was first applied by the Romans ( latin form Nubianus)
They intended it to means all the various groups in Sudan

Did they also include the people of Nubt?

Maybe but we would need an example in their writing. But it could have included them also.
But if they used this term because there were some people in Nubt, inside Egypt does not means that Nubt is the origin of all the various groups, Kush, Meore, Kerma, Medjay
all of these groups

And this term Nubian is similar to the Egyptian term Nehesy. They are broader terms

So were the Egyptians of the same "race" ?
Maybe, but that is a separate issue

During the Roman occupation the Romans were a minority.

A minority can control a majority if they bring in a big army that the native population might not want to challenge if they think they may not win. So they may accept the occupation

There is a political reality to what is called Egypt and what is outside of their territory.

The term "Canada" is used to indicate a separate nation from the United States even though that breaks down to sub groups and provinces.

So as regard Egypt and Nubia if someone wants to say they were of the same "race" or different in some way that is a separate issue from the political meaning and how the Romans were applying the term Nubian in a territorial sense not Nubt

And during the Roman occupation the native Egyptians were right there in Egypt being ruled by a Roman minority

This was going on as the Romans indicated this term "Nubian"

The the Romans say they forced all the native Egyptians into the Aswan and Sudan?
NO
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


So what the hell was a nubian?

---

A Nehesy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


So what the hell was a nubian?

---

A Nehesy

---

Stop promoting that nonsense. I can't believe you're still using the term Nubian as distinct from Nubt to refer to Kush. Newsflash The Ancient Egyptians idea of Nubt is completely different from The Egyptologists idea of Nubia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] I think we are spending too much time trying to reconcile something that is not reconcilable.
Ancient "Nubia" never existed and there is no way to identify a "Nubian" people from 4,000 years ago because they didn't exist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


So what the hell was a nubian?

---

A Nehesy

---

Stop promoting that nonsense. I can't believe you're still using the term Nubian as distinct from Nubt to refer to Kush. Newsflash The Ancient Egyptians idea of Nubt is completely different from The Egyptologists idea of Nubia.

---

Nubt is a place name not a people name. This you said yourself.

The Egyptians did not say they were Nubti

And the Egyptians did not say Nubt was a people

They had a word called "Nehesy" this refers to people to the south outside of their national boundary

the equivalent word "Nubians" is how the Romans sometimes called this same Nehesy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
I already made it clear that Nubt and Nehesy are not Equivalent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Romans obviously saw the people in Northern Sudan as deriving from the people in Nubt otherwise they would've never gave them that name.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
they would've never....

---

this is the type of thing one says when guessing and pretend it's fact
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
You have not provided a shred of evidence that The Romans usage of the term Nubian was the equivalent of The Egyptian's usage of the term Nehesy. You still have yet to explain the origin of the term Nubian since you don't think its Nubt. The Romans never mentioned where they got the term from. So just because The Roman texts don't blatantly say that Nubia originated from Nubt doesn't mean that it didn't. Common sense tells us that Nubian originates from Nubt.
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
The Romans recognized a Kushite origin of The Ancient Egyptians.

Diodorus Siculus: They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony. 2 For, speaking generally, what is now Egypt, they maintain, was not land but sea when in the beginning the universe was being formed; afterwards, however, as the Nile during the times of its inundation carried down the mud from Ethiopia, land was gradually built up from the deposit. Also the statement that all the land of the Egyptians is alluvial silt deposited by the river receives the clearest proof, in their opinion, from what takes place at the outlets of the Nile; 3 for as each year new mud is continually gathered together at the mouths of the river, the sea is observed being thrust back by the deposited silt and the land receiving the increase. And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian, the
p95
colonists still preserving their ancient manners. 4 For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; 5 for of the two kinds of writing5 which the Egyptians have, that which is known as "popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called "sacred"6 is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters. 6 Furthermore, the orders of the priests, they maintain, have much the same position among both peoples; for all are clean7 who are engaged in the service of the gods, keeping themselves shaven, like the Egyptian priests, and having the same dress and form of staff, which is shaped like a plough and is carried by their kings, who wear high felt hats which end in a knob at the top and are circled by the serpents which they call asps; and this symbol appears to carry the thought that it will be the lot of those who shall dare to attack the king to encounter death-carrying stings.8 7 Many other things are also told by them concerning their own antiquity and the colony which they sent out that became the Egyptians, but about this there is no special need of our writing anything.
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
The Ancient Egyptians themselves recognized a Kinship with the Nehesy/Kushites


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
You have not provided a shred of evidence that The Romans usage of the term Nubian was the equivalent of The Egyptian's usage of the term Nehesy. You still have yet to explain the origin of the term Nubian since you don't think its Nubt. The Romans never mentioned where they got the term from. So just because The Roman texts don't blatantly say that Nubia originated from Nubt doesn't mean that it didn't. Common sense tells us that Nubian originates from Nubt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Common sense tells us

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Romans recognized a Kushite origin of The Ancient Egyptians.

Diodorus Siculus: They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
[QB] I decided to post Roman Comments on The origins of The Ancient Egyptians since you kept referring to Roman sources. You can't just cherry pick Roman writings and ignore their other writings that acknowledge a kinship between The Ancient Egyptians and The Nehesy. Here we have Diodorus Siculus speaking on The Kushite/Nehesy origins of Egyptian Civilization so if you're going to ignore his writings then you have to ignore all other Roman Writings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
you claimed The name Nubian didn't derive from The Egyptian ''NBW/NWB'' for gold.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Ok so now that you acknowledge that the word Nubian derives from the Egyptian word for gold then How can you continue to argue against my assertion that The Nubians of today originate from Nubt which means City of Gold?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
And I only posted the Diodorus quote because I wanted to show how The Romans recognized a group of Africans who lived OUTSIDE of Egypt as founders of Egypt since you don't think the actual Blacks who lived INSIDE Egypt were Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
But Egyptologists already acknowledge that The term Nubian originated from The AE word for Gold so we don't need The Romans to explain it. You seem to be dwelling on why The Romans used the term when Egyptologists already discovered the origin.

---

p288 Afrocentricity and the Academy: Essays on Theory and Practice
edited by James L. Conyers, Jr.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Diodorus Siculus story of Osiris coming from Nubia is a legend that dates to prehistoric times! Again, the people who lived in 'Nubia' are different from the people living there today! Modern Nubians speak Nilo-Saharan and have different culture from the predynastic people who live in the same region!

Even during the time of Diodorus Siculus there probably weren't any Nilo-Saharan Nubians!!
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
You have not provided a shred of evidence that The Romans usage of the term Nubian was the equivalent of The Egyptian's usage of the term Nehesy. You still have yet to explain the origin of the term Nubian since you don't think its Nubt. The Romans never mentioned where they got the term from. So just because The Roman texts don't blatantly say that Nubia originated from Nubt doesn't mean that it didn't. Common sense tells us that Nubian originates from Nubt.

---

quote:

---

The area now called Nubia extends along the Nile from the South of Aswan to the town of Dabba, near the Fourth cataract, linking Egypt – i.e. the northern part of the Nile valley – to the Sudan in the South. The name Nubia is first mentioned in Strabo’s Geographica; the Greek author is believed to have visited Egypt c. 29 BC.

The etymology of the name Nubia is uncertain, but some researchers believe it is derived from the Ancient Egyptian nbu, meaning gold, referring to the gold mines for which Nubia was famous. The name does not appear in Ancient Egyptian texts. They refer to Nubia generally as Ta-Seti, meaning “Land of the Bow”, a clear reference to the weapon favoured by the Nubians.

---

quote:

---

EGYPTIAN LOAN-WORDS IN ENGLISH

AE p3-nHsy (pa-nehesi)(= "the Nubian")

[…]

Seeing the great many writing variations of the name Babai, von Bissing presumes that we're dealing with a foreign (Nubian?) word for baboon, borrowed into AE, and given as name to their baboon demon.

---

quote:

---

The thirteenth dynasty was not stable; it consisted, more or less, of a continuum of usurpers with very short reigns that averaged three years. The power brokers of that period were administrators and generals, some of them of foreign origin. Toward the end of the eighteenth century BCE, parts of the Delta broke with thirteenth dynasty rule. By a few monuments, the kingdom of Nehesy “the Nubian” is known. His monuments are only in the northeastern Delta, between Bubastis and Tell el-Hebwa. He seems to have resided in Avaris, where he created an Egyptian interpretation of a local cult of the Syrian storm god Hadad (Baal-Zaphon), syncretizing him with the Egyptian storm god Seth, who became from that time the dynastic god “Seth, lord of Avaris” or “Seth, lord of Rʒ-ʒḫt” (“door of the fertile land

The name Nehesy is known from several monuments as “oldest king's son” before he came to reign. He was possibly part Egyptian, based on his mother's purely Egyptian civil name. His power rested, however, on the large population of Near Easterners, who had continuously settled in the northeastern Delta before his reign.

---

quote:

---

Etymological Interpretation

For the ancient Egyptians, Nub (nbw) meant ‘gold’. Nubia was very rich in precious metals, and gold was probably the principal attraction of the area for its powerful northern neighbors.

However, some scholars insist that this meaning of Nub for Nubia is not set in stone. One reason for this uncertainty is that this toponym for ‘Gold Land’ does not appear in Pharaonic times. The word in that period referred only to the precious metal. In hieroglyphic texts, Nubia is called TaSeti, (The Land of the Bow), or simply the ‘Southern Land’. 84 Another name widely used in the ancient world is Kush, referring in particular to Upper Nubia (Sudan), while Lower Nubia (in Egypt) was referred to as Wawat. The people living in it were called Nehesius, by the ancient Egyptians in hieroglyphic texts. This means the burnt/bronzed (Fig. 17).

---

quote:

---

From a study of the Semna Dispatches, Posener differentiated the NHs.y from their neighbours in the Eastern Desert, the Medjay, and showed that at least in some documentary texts of the early Middle Kingdom (Semna Dispatches), the NHs.y refers to Nubians on the Nile Valley. 247 Rilly, concurring with this assessment, identifies Posener’s ‘true Nehesy’ in the Execration Texts as Nilo-Saharan Meroitic speakers, based on the phonological repertoire present in these onomastica. 248 While this distinction may be maintained in these textual corpora, the same conclusion cannot hold for all texts, and, generally speaking when NHs.y is used it is in such a flexible manner that it is best to simply translate it as ‘southerners’ or ‘Nubians’. Indeed, one can point to Egyptian conflicts in the Eastern Desert where the term NHs.y is used of its inhabitants,249 and thus in Egyptian texts the inhabitants of riverine Nubia were not always differentiated from desert-dwellers of the Atbai. Jiménez-Serrano has advanced a thesis that NHs was originally a toponym in the Kerma region, based on a reading of an entry on the Palermo Stone as &A-nHs.250 While the orthography agrees with such an interpretation, it creates difficulties. If NHs designated a region we would expect a simpler independent toponym NHs (without tA). Furthermore, if NHs was a toponym, there would have been no reason to invent the very common expression &A-nHs.y. The generic tA is most commonly coupled with ethnica in Egyptian placenames. 251 Indeed linguists have generally preferred identifying the word NHs.y with a moribund colour root for dark or brown, thus referring to any personage of marginally darker skin-tone than Egyptians.252

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Nhs/Nehesy never had anything to do with Nubt. Nhs/Nehesy never referred to anything in Egypt but a collective term for the various tribes in Sudan that made up Kush. Today’s Nubians have nothing to do with Nhs/Nehesy because they are Indigenous to Egypt not Sudan.

---

quote:

---

4.1.1 Eastern Desert Dwellers (NHs.y, MDA.y)

There is no all-encompassing term for inhabitants of the Eastern Desert in Egyptian sources. The word NHs.y, while more commonly employed for ‘Nubians’ and ‘southerners’ in general, could be used for the inhabitants of the Eastern Desert (Medja-land). This impression is given by the autobiography of Weni, where all southern peoples, except the western *mH.w, are identified as NHs.y:246

iri.n Hm=f mSa … m IrTt NHs.y MDA NHsy ImA NHsy m WAwAt NHs.y m KAAw NHs.y *mH.w His majesty made an army… from Irtjet-Nehesy, Medjay-Nehesy, Yam-Nehesy, (and) from Wawat-Nehesy, from Kaau-Nehesy, and Tjemehu-Libyans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
^ @Doug M
Agreed, when you look for the etymology of the word you always bump into the same endless rhetoric. Never is it explained where the term came from. I guess we have to find out who first transliterated the term, and from what source it came. I tested this in the Latin dictionary, and it didn't show up. The word "Egypt" does.


https://www.latin-dictionary.net/search/latin/nubia


https://www.etymonline.com/word/Nubian


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

---

quote:

---

Images and Attitudes
Ancient Views of Nubia and the Nubians

By: Frank M. Snowden, Jr.Download Article PDF View PDF

Ancient Nubia was clearly perceived by its contemporaries as an independent country, rich in coveted resources and inhabited by dark and black-skinned Negroid peoples. These peoples at one time conquered and ruled Egypt and laid the foundations of a state that survived for more than a thousand years. Various sources leave no doubt whatsoever that the inhabitants of this region, designated as Kushites, Ethiopians, and Nubians, were perceived as physically different from Egyptians (see box). Their physical characteristics were faithfully depicted not only in Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and early Christian art, but also in detailed Greco-Roman and early Christian writ­ings.

While recognizing physical differ­ences among the peoples of their world, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and early Christians attached no special stigma to skin color and did not develop notions of race involving a hierarchy with ‘whites” in the highest position and “blacks” in the lowest. Underlying this unbiased view was an objective approach to man’s diversity, in which skin color was mere geographical accident. To see how those we today call black Africans were known to their contemporaries, let us take up, in turn, Egyptian, Greco-Roman, and early Christian representations of the peoples of Nubia.

---

quote:

---

Amanirenas (also spelled Amanirena) was a queen of the Kingdom of Kush from c. 40 BC to c. 10 BC. Her full title was Amnirense qore li kdwe li ("Ameniras, qore and kandake").[1]

Amanirenas is one of the most famous kandakes, because of her role leading Kushite armies against the Romans in a war that lasted five years, from 27 BC to 22 BC. After an initial victory when the Kushites attacked Roman Egypt, they were driven out of Sudan by Gaius Petronius and the Romans established a new frontier at Hiere Sycaminos (Maharraqa).[2][3] Amanirenas was described as brave, and blind in one eye.

Meroitic inscriptions give Amanirenas the title of qore as well as kandake suggesting that she was a ruling queen. She is usually considered to be the queen referred to as "Candace" in Strabo's account of the Meroitic war against the Roman Empire. Her name is associated with those of Teriteqas and Akinidad, but the precise relationship between these three is not clear in the historical record

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

EGYPTIAN LOAN-WORDS IN ENGLISH

AE p3-nHsy (pa-nehesi)(= "the Nubian")

[…]

Seeing the great many writing variations of the name Babai, von Bissing presumes that we're dealing with a foreign (Nubian?) word for baboon, borrowed into AE, and given as name to their baboon demon.

---

http://www.egyptologyforum.org/AEloans.html

quote:

---

The thirteenth dynasty was not stable; it consisted, more or less, of a continuum of usurpers with very short reigns that averaged three years. The power brokers of that period were administrators and generals, some of them of foreign origin. Toward the end of the eighteenth century BCE, parts of the Delta broke with thirteenth dynasty rule. By a few monuments, the kingdom of Nehesy “the Nubian” is known. His monuments are only in the northeastern Delta, between Bubastis and Tell el-Hebwa. He seems to have resided in Avaris, where he created an Egyptian interpretation of a local cult of the Syrian storm god Hadad (Baal-Zaphon), syncretizing him with the Egyptian storm god Seth, who became from that time the dynastic god “Seth, lord of Avaris” or “Seth, lord of Rʒ-ʒḫt” (“door of the fertile land

The name Nehesy is known from several monuments as “oldest king's son” before he came to reign. He was possibly part Egyptian, based on his mother's purely Egyptian civil name. His power rested, however, on the large population of Near Easterners, who had continuously settled in the northeastern Delta before his reign.

---

http://www.oxfordbiblicalstudies.com/article/opr/t176/e0328

---

quote:

---

In his review of the Second Intermediate Period, egyptologist Kim Ryholt proposed that Nehesy was the son and direct successor of the pharaoh Sheshi with a Nubian Queen named Tati.[1] Egyptologist Darrell Baker, who also shares this opinion, posits that Tati must have been Nubian or of Nubian descent, hence Nehesy's name meaning The Nubian.[2] The 14th dynasty being of Canaanite origin, Nehesy is also believed to be of Canaanite descent.[2]

---

quote:

---

The archaeology of Egypt is in world archaeological circles widely regarded as non-theoretical in a negative sense. The consequence of such a state of the discipline are often uncritical uses of concepts and models which were under heavy critique in archaeology since the 1960s. This paper examines the culture-historical reasoning inarchaeology of Egypt by analysing the arguments provided for the presence of “Nubian” archers in Avaris (Tell el-Dabca). Their presence in Tell el-Dabca is often argued with the presence of Nubian pottery, arrowheads and skeletal remains. This paper analyses the way these finds of different date and contexts, are brought together in a coherent archaeological narrative. It is argued that the finds were identified as Nubian and mutually related because of the cultural-historical reasoning taken as an unquestionable interpretative model, a hidden theory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Show me a text where The Ancient Egyptians referred to Nubt as Nehesy? I thought you already agreed that there never was a “Nubia” as Egyptologists use the term?. The only evidence we have of a Nubia is The City of Nubt which means City of Gold. Egyptologists do not like this term but prefer to call it the Arabic name Naqada because it proves that what they are calling Nubia was actually in the borders of Egypt and not land South of Egypt like they claim.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No this isn't a transliteration issue. Egyptology didn't exist when the modern term "Nubian" was created in the Roman era. Egyptology took that term and used it as a racial term and that usage is how most people come across it in history books and text books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No matter how the Romans derived the term, the use of the term by Egyptology as a "Racial" term segregating Egypt from the rest of Africa in ancient times is purely propaganda. Keep in mind that in the Roman Era, large parts of Upper Egypt were resisting Roman Rule with the assistance of the Kushites. And that was also true under the Greeks, Persians and Assyrians as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Your own reference contradicts itself. They say Nehesi means southerner, but then turn around and claim he was an Asiatic. This is Egyptology trying to push Asiatics as being more numerous in ancient times than indigenous blacks. We have discussed this numerous times, but when the anthropologists and archaeologists excavated sites in Northern Egypt looking for Asiatic "Hyksos" they found more evidence of black African so-called "Nubians" than Asiatics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, the term Southerner is a general term used in AE texts and does not indicate a "race" or specific kingdom or people. Egyptologists see "Nubian" and "Nehesi" as being equal to "black people" which is purely a modern usage of the term that has nothing to do with how it was used in ancient times. The people of Aswan and around Aswan were not called "Nehesi" they were called people of "Ta-Seti" which was part of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Read the actual original heiroglyphs and their tranlations and you will see how Egyptologists insert "Nubian" in many texts totally out of context and changing the whole meaning of the actual text in order to promote a narrative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No this isn't a transliteration issue. Egyptology didn't exist when the modern term "Nubian" was created in the Roman era. Egyptology took that term and used it as a racial term and that usage is how most people come across it in history books and text books.

---

So you are telling that a translation doesn't have an etymological root? Is that correct? The word Egypt did appear in the classical Latin dictionary.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No matter how the Romans derived the term, the use of the term by Egyptology as a "Racial" term segregating Egypt from the rest of Africa in ancient times is purely propaganda. Keep in mind that in the Roman Era, large parts of Upper Egypt were resisting Roman Rule with the assistance of the Kushites. And that was also true under the Greeks, Persians and Assyrians as well.

---

I order to understand what they meant, you have to go to the original source, correct?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Your own reference contradicts itself. They say Nehesi means southerner, but then turn around and claim he was an Asiatic. This is Egyptology trying to push Asiatics as being more numerous in ancient times than indigenous blacks. We have discussed this numerous times, but when the anthropologists and archaeologists excavated sites in Northern Egypt looking for Asiatic "Hyksos" they found more evidence of black African so-called "Nubians" than Asiatics.

---

It's not that I am looking for a contraction, I am looking for the root word and the actual meaning. This means that I will cite sources from different interpretations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, the term Southerner is a general term used in AE texts and does not indicate a "race" or specific kingdom or people. Egyptologists see "Nubian" and "Nehesi" as being equal to "black people" which is purely a modern usage of the term that has nothing to do with how it was used in ancient times. The people of Aswan and around Aswan were not called "Nehesi" they were called people of "Ta-Seti" which was part of Egypt.

---

I have cited those type of sources as well.

See, Julien Cooper, Toponymy on the Periphery: Placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic until the end of the New Kingdom.

And De Simone, Maria Costanza Title: Nubia and Nubians : the ‘museumization’ of a culture.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Read the actual original heiroglyphs and their tranlations and you will see how Egyptologists insert "Nubian" in many texts totally out of context and changing the whole meaning of the actual text in order to promote a narrative.

---

Where are these for comparison?

---

quote:

---

wpw Hr nHs jw.tj=f r jrt swnt mjqn5m jpwt rA-pwa

part from a Nubian who shall come to trade in Mirgissa,5or with a message

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Read the actual original heiroglyphs and their tranlations and you will see how Egyptologists insert "Nubian" in many texts totally out of context and changing the whole meaning of the actual text in order to promote a narrative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


Again, there are plenty of monuments and sites of thousands of years of history submerged under Lake Aswan that show the fact that the dynastic culture came from this area. Those people were never the same as the "Kushites" further south. That is purely racial propaganda made up by modern Egyptologists. If anything the "Nubian" museum should be focusing on that not Kushite stuff from much later and farther away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


I am saying how Egyptologists use the term has nothing to do with transliteration. There was no word "Nubian" in ancient texts referring to Southerners or "black Africans". So it is impossible to justify the modern usage of the term extending back to ancient times is what I am saying. Literally Egyptologists will see the word "Nehesi" in heiroglyphs and insert "Nubian". Or they will see the word "Wawat" in heiroglyphs and insert the word "Nubian". This is not transliteration as in "a literal translation". I think you and I are talking about two different things as whatever is the origin of the word "Nubian" used after the Roman era has nothing to do with how Egyptologists arbitrarily insert the terms in ancient texts even when no such word literally exists (transliteration).

For example, see the boundary stela of Senwosret III found around the 2nd cataract. This stela uses the term "Nehesy" as in people south of the 2nd Cataract. In this context they are not talking about the people of Aswan or North of the 2nd Cataract. They are talking about people in the regions of Kerma and Kush. These are not the same people as the people of "Ta Seti" which is around Aswan. Them inserting the term "Nubian" is about lumping ALL populations from Aswan all the way down to the 6th cataract together as one entity which did not exist as a country, ethnic group, language or country. It is a racial term.

---

quote:

---

Nubia was the country that bordered ancient Egypt on the south, and through much of its history was politically dominated by the Egyptian state.

---

quote:

---

However, in those periods from the 1st Dynasty onward (ca. 3050 BC), whenever Egypt was unable to maintain her presence in Nubia (e.g., because of her own internal difficulties), the various Nubian cultures flourished and enjoyed their political and economic independence, often formulating kingdoms of great dynamism that were competitive with the Egyptian state.

---

quote:

---

Political Frontiers

In the Middle Kingdom, Egypt's southernmost border was fixed at Semna, located south of the Second Cataract in an area of narrow gorges and rocky outcroppings, known in Arabic as the Batn el- Hajjar , the "Belly of Stones" (about 68 km. south of the modern Egyptian-Sudanese border). Later in the New Kingdom, Egypt extended her southern border up to the Fourth Cataract, although she exercised military authority further upriver, as far as modern Kurgus
(south of Abu Hamed).

---

quote:

---

The traditional ancient Egyptian name for Nubia was Ta- Seti , "Land of the Bow" (as in "bow and arrow"). Indeed, the Egyptians gave that same name to their southernmost nome which bordered on Nubia, either because it was adjacent to that country, or else because that portion of southern Upper Egypt was originally part of an earlier kingdom of Nubia with the same name, and which would have existed before the unification of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

The Divisions of Nubia

For purposes of understanding history and geography, Nubia is divided into two great regions, Lower Nubia and Upper Nubia. Lower Nubia is the northern region extending nearly 400 km. from the First Cataract to the area around Semna and the Second Cataract. Today, it corresponds to the area of southern Egypt and the northern Sudan. Upper Nubia, which is south of Lower Nubia, extends upriver along the Nile to the Sixth Cataract and Khartum. It corresponds to what is today the central Sudan. The Nile River, flowing through this region, is often called the Middle Nile .

The Nile flows from south to north, i.e. from the Ethiopian Highlands and modern Uganda to the Mediterranean Sea. However, the geography of Upper Nubia is dominated by a giant bend of the river between the Fifth and Fourth Cataracts, in which the Nile actually turns to the southwest for about 270 km. before turning northward again in its passage to the sea. The area where it flows northward out of the bend and through to the Third Cataract is called the Dongola Reach , named after the Sudanese town of Dongola which dominates this part of the river. The great bend itself can be called the Dongola-Abu Hamed Bend of the Nile. This area, in which the water might be thought of as reversing direction, was highly treacherous to ancient navigation because of the speed of the rushing river here and the many rocky protrusions extending for kilometers along the river bed. Hence, this can be characterized as an area of often intense white water.

Nomenclature


Archaeological Names vs. Political Names

In the study of Nubian history and archaeology, specialists use two kinds of names to refer to the various ancient people and cultures they encounter; these are political names and archaeological names. Political names derive from ancient texts, and they reflect the actual names that the Egyptians, Greeks, or Nubians themselves gave to certain parts of Nubia or to the different Nubian peoples. Archaeological names are those names given to particular cultures or industries which are detectable by archaeology but for which there are no associated ancient names. Thus, there is no way to know what names the people of these cultures gave themselves. Here the archaeologists provide these cultures with either arbitrary (and artificial) designations , e.g.: "A-Group, B-Group" and "X-Group," or they name them according to the archaeological sites in which they were first discovered or which became their main centers, e.g.: "Kerma Culture" (referring to the succession of Nubian cultures found at the city of Kerma).


Sometimes, the archaeological and arbitrary designations are mixed, e.g., the X-Group can also be referred to as the "Ballana Culture," since a main site for this culture is the cemetery of Ballana. Rarely, a political/textual name might combine with an archaeological designation, e.g., Nubadae-people can now be identified with the X-Group. Similarly, it has been suggested (justifiably or not) that the C-Group might be those people which the Egyptians named the Tjemehu (i.e., Libyans of the central Sahara).


Egyptian Names of Nubia

All of the lands south and southeast of Egypt (sometimes also including the northeast) the Egyptians called, Ta-netjer, "God's Land." Within this great region, the Egyptians located the different countries and people of Nubia. From the Old Kingdom onward, in addition to Ta-Seti, the Egyptians applied the name Ta- Nehesy as a general designation for Nubia (n.b., nehesy means, "nubian;" Panehesy, "the Nubian" becomes a common personal name, developing into the Biblical name, Phineas). At the same time, Egyptians gave the name Wawat specifically to Lower Nubia. This name derived from one of several Nubian chiefdoms which were located in this region during the late Old Kingdom. A generic designation of the desert nomads of Nubia was the term Iuntiu or Iuntiu-setiu , "Nubian tribesmen (lit. 'bowmen')." The names which the Egyptians used to refer to the various parts of Nubia and its different peoples usually changed depending upon the era and the particular tribal group in a given area.


Elsewhere in the Old Kingdom, the names Irtjet , Zatju , and Kaau were used for particular people and areas of the country. While, previously, they were thought to be in Lower Nubia, David O'Connor has recently made a strong case for locating them in Upper Nubia. The Land of Yam , visited by Harkhuf, Governor of Elephantine, in the late 6th Dynasty, was apparently located around the Fifth or Sixth Cataracts. The Land of Punt was a country located east of Upper Nubia and bordering on the Red Sea (i.e., extending from the highlands to the sea). Since the Old Kingdom, the Egyptians often enjoyed a productive relationship with a Nubian tribal people from the land of Medja , named the Medjay (called the "Pan-Grave People" by archaeologists). As fierce warriors, they were incorporated as mercenaries into the Egyptian army as early as the 6th Dynasty. Later in the New Kingdom, they were employed as the police force in Egypt, and the word medjay became the ancient Egyptian term for "policeman."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


I am saying how Egyptologists use the term has nothing to do with transliteration. There was no word "Nubian" in ancient texts referring to Southerners or "black Africans". So it is impossible to justify the modern usage of the term extending back to ancient times is what I am saying. Literally Egyptologists will see the word "Nehesi" in heiroglyphs and insert "Nubian". Or they will see the word "Wawat" in heiroglyphs and insert the word "Nubian". This is not transliteration as in "a literal translation". I think you and I are talking about two different things as whatever is the origin of the word "Nubian" used after the Roman era has nothing to do with how Egyptologists arbitrarily insert the terms in ancient texts even when no such word literally exists (transliteration).

For example, see the boundary stela of Senwosret III found around the 2nd cataract. This stela uses the term "Nehesy" as in people south of the 2nd Cataract. In this context they are not talking about the people of Aswan or North of the 2nd Cataract. They are talking about people in the regions of Kerma and Kush. These are not the same people as the people of "Ta Seti" which is around Aswan. Them inserting the term "Nubian" is about lumping ALL populations from Aswan all the way down to the 6th cataract together as one entity which did not exist as a country, ethnic group, language or country. It is a racial term.

---

Did you read Julien Cooper Toponymy on the Periphery: Placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic until the end of the New Kingdom. And De Simone, Maria Costanza Title: Nubia and Nubians : the ‘museumization’ of a culture?

These works are the most elaborated works I have seen thus far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
You cannot transliterate the term "nehesy" from an ancient stela at the 2nd cataract in the Middle Kingom into meaning "Nubia" was a country that bordered Egypt from Aswan in the predynastic all the way to the Christian era and then Roman era. No such transliteration exists outside Egyptologists who promote it. So of course they are going to write books supporting it because it is something they invented to support an agenda.
Again, this is about creating a "racial" division on the Nile valley using "nubia" as equivalent to "black people".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The only evidence we have of a Nubia is an Ancient Egyptian word for Gold and a City called Nubt. Until you can find the term anywhere else my argument remains valid. Today’s Nubians are those very same people of Nubt. They are not immigrants and they claim no foreign origin. Go to Aswan and they will tell you that is their home. I don’t understand why you don’t listen to the words of The Nubians themselves and just prefer to listen to Egyptologists Mumbo Jumbo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
You cannot transliterate the term "nehesy" from an ancient stela at the 2nd cataract in the Middle Kingom into meaning "Nubia" was a country that bordered Egypt from Aswan in the predynastic all the way to the Christian era and then Roman era. No such transliteration exists outside Egyptologists who promote it. So of course they are going to write books supporting it because it is something they invented to support an agenda.
Again, this is about creating a "racial" division on the Nile valley using "nubia" as equivalent to "black people".

---

My question is, did you read the works by Julien Cooper: "Toponymy on the Periphery: Placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic until the end of the New Kingdom". And De Simone, Maria Costanza: "Nubia and Nubians : the ‘museumization’ of a culture?"

I asked so, because you've responded within 20 minutes, while the book is about 619 pages deep.

From what I know they aren't the authors of that website, touregypt.

---

quote:

---

Julien Cooper (PhD in Egyptology from Macquarie University) joined the department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations as a Postdoctoral Research Associate in Egyptology. Julien teaches Egyptian language at Yale. His research program is dedicated to the study of the peripheral regions of Pharaonic Egypt, particularly in Nubia and the Red Sea. He also has interests in varied topics in Egyptian linguistics and the history and languages of ancient Northeast Africa.

.....

Julien has conducted epigraphic fieldwork in Egypt and Sudan. He is undertaking a new fieldwork project dedicated to the archaeology of Eastern Sudan (https://www.ees.ac.uk/gold-deserts-and-nomads). This project aims to elucidate the history of nomads and foreign imperialism of the Pharaonic state deep in the deserts of Sudan.

Monographs

(in press), Toponymy on the periphery: placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic till the end of the New Kingdom.

Book chapters

(in press) ‘Children of the Desert: The indigenous peoples of the Eastern Desert in the Pharaonic Period’

(in press) ‘The African Topographical lists of the New Kingdom and the Historical Geography of Nubia in the Second Millennium BCE’ in The 13th International Conference for Nubian Studies.

(2017) ‘Funerary Texts’ in Tristant, Y., Ryan, E. M (eds), Death is Only the Beginning: Funerary Beliefs at Macquarie’s Museum of Ancient Cultures, Australian Centre for Egyptology (Sydney)

(2017) ‘Between this world and the Duat: The Land of Wetenet and Egyptian Cosmography of the Red Sea’, in. C. Di Biase-Dyson & L. Donovan (eds), The Cultural Manifestations of Religious Experience: Studies in honour of Boyo G. Ockinga, 383-394.

Journal articles

(in press) ‘Punt in the “Northern” Topographical Lists’. Journal of Egyptian Archaeology

(2017), ‘Some observations on language contact between Egyptian and the languages of Darfur and Chad’, Der Antike Sudan: Mitteilungen der Sudanarchäologischen Gesellschaft zu Berlin 28, 81-86.

J. Cooper & H. Barnard (2017) ‘New Insights in the Inscription on a Painted Pan-Grave Bucranium from Grave 3252 at Cemetery 3100/3200 in Mostagedda (Middle Egypt)’, African Archaeological Review 34, 363-376.

(2017) ‘Toponymic Strata in Ancient Nubia until the Commen Era’, Dotawo: A Journal of Nubian Studies 4, 197-212.

(2015) ‘A record of a Red Sea sojourn at Beni Hassan: The journeys of Ameny/Amenemhat and ‘Relative-Placenames’, Bulletin of the Australian Centre for Egyptology 24, 31-50.

J. Cooper & L. Evans (2015) ‘Transforming into a swallow: Coffin Text Spell 294 and avian behaviour’, Zeitschrift für Ägyptische Sprache 142, 12-24.

(2012) ‘Reconsidering the location of Yam’, Journal of the American Research Centre in Egypt 48, 1-22.

(2011) ‘The Geographic and Cosmographic Expression Ta-netjer’, The Bulletin of the Australian Centre of Egyptology 22, 47-66.

---

quote:

---

Introduction
An enduring genre of onomastica in the New King-dom are the so-called ‘Topographical Lists’, a list of place names inscribed on temple façades and statues, enumerating foreign places, which at least in Egyptian rhetorical dogma were considered to be ritually con-quered.

The lists were epigraphically divided into two sections, a ‘southern’ Nubian section, and a ‘northern’ Asiatic section. A holistic study of these lists, taking into account scribal copying, epigraphic and textual analysis as well as linguistic concerns would quickly fill a monograph. THis study provides an analysis of some geographic and linguistic problems posed by the southern lists, as well as commenting on the phonology of the place names in order to trace linguistic history of the Middle Nile Region.

These lists in themselves have been the subject of various studies by Tomkins (1889), Schiaparelli (1916), Zyhlarz (1958), Zibelius (1972), and Priese (1984) and recent contributions by Minault-Gordon (1994) and Stockfisch(2008) have evaluated some of the geographicc and copying issues related to the southern lists. Indeed, all these authorities have at various points prof-fered locations for a number of place names in the list, but only Priese’s and Zibelius’ analyses were based on any established method and comparison with other toponymic traditions. Priese compared a number of place names in the list to modern toponyms as well as toponyms known from Arabic and Classical sources, while Zibelius’s compendium summarised many of the arguments for the location of these place names in pre-vious scholarship. Even after these works, there is very little in the way of positive identifications between place names in the Topographical Lists and contempo-rary locations in modern Egypt and Sudan.

---

quote:

---

This article attempts to make a contribution not so much to the location of toponyms in ancient Nubia, as is the preoccupation of most philologists and historians, but rather outline the various lin-guistic strata of toponyms present in ancient Nubia and what they tell us about the linguistic history of the Middle Nile. Toponyms not only provide key insights into the historical geography of ancient cultures, but are also linguistic artifacts in themselves. They can spatially demonstrate linguistic boundaries, and in some cases can also illustrate linguistic migrations. While most of Northeast Africa outside Egypt is terra incognita from the point of indigenous top-onymic textual data until the emergence of Meroitic, Old Nubian, and Ge?ez, toponyms enumerated in hieroglyphic Egyptian sources provide some of the earliest insights into the history of Sudan and its linguistic map. The picture of Nubian toponyms and historical geography, how-ever, is one of great linguistic change and heterogeneity. A careful study of Nubian place names can be used as a record of the linguistic geography of Sudan, but caution must be placed in this approach due to the great linguistic complexity present in Northeast Africa.

In modern Sudan alone, Ethnologue lists 78 languages, and the Sa-helian environment is well-known in African linguistics as a zone of extraordinary ethno-linguistic diversity, almost unparalleled elsewhere in Africa. The overwhelming majority of contemporary Su-danese languages are impossible to trace this far back in history due to a lack of indigenous written records. The most comprehensive review of the linguistic geography of Sudan from Egyptian records is a recent contribution of Karola Zibelius-Chen, which proposed broadly identifying the linguistic groupings of Meroitic (Eastern Sudanic) and Cushitic (chiefl y Beja) in the northern Sudan. This article will serve to further explicate this picture using regional toponymy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The only evidence we have of a Nubia is an Ancient Egyptian word for Gold and a City called Nubt. Until you can find the term anywhere else my argument remains valid. Today’s Nubians are those very same people of Nubt. They are not immigrants and they claim no foreign origin. Go to Aswan and they will tell you that is their home. I don’t understand why you don’t listen to the words of The Nubians themselves and just prefer to listen to Egyptologists Mumbo Jumbo.

---

This is a Youtube channel by an African American woman who travels in Africa. She also visited Egypt, Cairo; Aswan and other places.


Click the link: EAT LOVE MIGRATE, WAS COMING TO EGYPT A MISTAKE?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, no matter what Egyptologist you refer to there is no support for the idea that the ancient people of Dynastic KMT viewed every group to their South as part of a single monolithic entity called "Nubia" as a single nation, culture, ethnic group, language and identity. No such thing existed. In fact his work, which I have referred to in the past, actually shows the opposite.

What he is talking about is how these various DIFFERENT cultures are depicted in Ancient Egyptian iconography as part of the geography and cosmology of the Egyptian state and surrounding regions with Dynastic Egypt as the center of the world and "balance". References to "Southerners" does not prove that all these groups were part of a single state, culture, language, or identity called "Nubia". That is like saying every "Southerner" south of the Mason Dixon line is from the same culture, language and history when they are not.

As you can see from his web page, he is an expert in "Nubian" studies which means he is an Egyptologist that promotes the idea that "Nubia" is an actual single entity as explained in that TourEgypt article. That article represents the views of Egyptologists and This person is an Egyptologists and Egyptology created the concept of Ancient Nubia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, no matter how you slice it, there is no way to transliterate, Ta-Netjer, Nehesy, Wawat, Yam, Kush, Ta-seti and so forth into meaning "Nubia" as a single ethnic group, culture, language or identity in the ancient world going back to the predynastic. That is absolute nonsense.

To show how his work tries to take different people, cultures and ethnic groups and lump them together, see the following:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The only evidence we have of a Nubia is an Ancient Egyptian word for Gold and a City called Nubt. Until you can find the term anywhere else my argument remains valid. Today’s Nubians are those very same people of Nubt. They are not immigrants and they claim no foreign origin. Go to Aswan and they will tell you that is their home. I don’t understand why you don’t listen to the words of The Nubians themselves and just prefer to listen to Egyptologists Mumbo Jumbo.

---

This is a Youtube channel by an African American woman who travels in Africa. She also visited Egypt, Cairo; Aswan and other places.


Click the link: EAT LOVE MIGRATE, WAS COMING TO EGYPT A MISTAKE?

---

I’ve seen her channel. Nothing new to me. Nubians are an Indigenous Egyptian people and not a single poster has proved me wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, no matter what Egyptologist you refer to there is no support for the idea that the ancient people of Dynastic KMT viewed every group to their South as part of a single monolithic entity called "Nubia" as a single nation, culture, ethnic group, language and identity. No such thing existed. In fact his work, which I have referred to in the past, actually shows the opposite.

What he is talking about is how these various DIFFERENT cultures are depicted in Ancient Egyptian iconography as part of the geography and cosmology of the Egyptian state and surrounding regions with Dynastic Egypt as the center of the world and "balance". References to "Southerners" does not prove that all these groups were part of a single state, culture, language, or identity called "Nubia". That is like saying every "Southerner" south of the Mason Dixon line is from the same culture, language and history when they are not.

As you can see from his web page, he is an expert in "Nubian" studies which means he is an Egyptologist that promotes the idea that "Nubia" is an actual single entity as explained in that TourEgypt article. That article represents the views of Egyptologists and This person is an Egyptologists and Egyptology created the concept of Ancient Nubia.

---

That is not, I repeat not the question.

The question is. HAVE YOU: read the works by Julien Cooper: "Toponymy on the Periphery: Placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic until the end of the New Kingdom". And De Simone, Maria Costanza: "Nubia and Nubians : the ‘museumization’ of a culture?"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, no matter how you slice it, there is no way to transliterate, Ta-Netjer, Nehesy, Wawat, Yam, Kush, Ta-seti and so forth into meaning "Nubia" as a single ethnic group, culture, language or identity in the ancient world going back to the predynastic. That is absolute nonsense.

To show how his work tries to take different people, cultures and ethnic groups and lump them together, see the following:

---

I am not slicing anything. My question was very simple.

HAVE YOU: read the works by Julien Cooper: "Toponymy on the Periphery: Placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic until the end of the New Kingdom". And De Simone, Maria Costanza: "Nubia and Nubians : the ‘museumization’ of a culture?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
OK. Again, you and I are talking apples and oranges.

My point is there is no "transliteration" of "Nubia" as a single ethnic, geographic, linguistic or political entity on the ancient Nile. How does reading Julien Cooper disprove that? Are you saying that his work shows that it is possible to literally translate words from ancient texts into what they now call "Nubia"?

Unless you can show that reading his book is going to prove otherwise, I see no reason why you bring it up. As I said, he is a trained Egyptologist and as being such he has been taught that "Nubia" is a valid construct for the ancient Nile Valley and as such he uses the term and promotes it even if the facts and his own writings do not support the concept as the Egyptologists use it.

---

quote:

---

Haaland has advanced a rather complex thesis which equates Nilo-Saharan speakers with the Neolithic occupants of the Khartoum area, only to be replaced by Cushitic who pushed them into the Sudd of South Sudan (and presumably counter-replaced by Nilo-Saharan Meroitic speakers). 321 Through phonological analysis of the onomastic material of the Middle Kingdom Execration Texts, Rilly revealed that the Nilotic NHs.y - ‘les vrais Nehesyou’ - were Nilo-Saharan speakers. 322 But, the language(s) spoken in Lower Nubia are probably not of the same affiliation, as most of its toponyms are phonologically closer to Afroasiatic than Nilo-Saharan languages.323

[…]

El-Sayed noted many Beja etymologies in his catalogue of African loanwords in the Old and Middle Kingdom, mainly from personal names and toponyms, but also some lexical loans.343 Many African loanwords (chiefly from Meroitic and Beja) appearing in hieroglyphic texts are also collected in the work of Zibelius-Chen. 344 Among the more convincing Beja examples is Irw with a cognate in Beja aráw ‘friend’. 345 From this evidence, it seems likely that at least some of the indigenous dwellers of the Eastern Desert, the Medjay of the texts, spoke a form of Pre-Beja.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
OK. Again, you and I are talking apples and oranges.

My point is there is no "transliteration" of "Nubia" as a single ethnic, geographic, linguistic or political entity on the ancient Nile. How does reading Julien Cooper disprove that? Are you saying that his work shows that it is possible to literally translate words from ancient texts into what they now call "Nubia"?

Unless you can show that reading his book is going to prove otherwise, I see no reason why you bring it up. As I said, he is a trained Egyptologist and as being such he has been taught that "Nubia" is a valid construct for the ancient Nile Valley and as such he uses the term and promotes it even if the facts and his own writings do not support the concept as the Egyptologists use it.

---

There's no apples and oranges to my question. It a simple yes or no question, and if yes, you can elaborate. If not, you can't elaborate.

Only after reading something. you can state that it dispelled or supported your view, correct?

What does this say:

p=2#000076

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
OK. Again, you and I are talking apples and oranges.

My point is there is no "transliteration" of "Nubia" as a single ethnic, geographic, linguistic or political entity on the ancient Nile. How does reading Julien Cooper disprove that? Are you saying that his work shows that it is possible to literally translate words from ancient texts into what they now call "Nubia"?

Unless you can show that reading his book is going to prove otherwise, I see no reason why you bring it up. As I said, he is a trained Egyptologist and as being such he has been taught that "Nubia" is a valid construct for the ancient Nile Valley and as such he uses the term and promotes it even if the facts and his own writings do not support the concept as the Egyptologists use it.

---

There's no apples and oranges to my question. It a simple yes or no question, and if yes, you can elaborate. If not, you can't elaborate.

Only after reading something. you can state that it dispelled or supported your view, correct?

What does this say:

p=2#000076

---

It says there is NOT a literal translation for a single entity called "Nubia" from ancient texts. I don't get why you don't see that.

---

quote:

---

4.1.1 Eastern Desert Dwellers (NHs.y, MDA.y)

There is no all-encompassing term for inhabitants of the Eastern Desert in Egyptian sources. The word NHs.y, while more commonly employed for ‘Nubians’ and ‘southerners’ in general, could be used for the inhabitants of the Eastern Desert (Medja-land). This impression is given by the autobiography of Weni, where all southern peoples, except the western *mH.w, are identified as NHs.y:246

iri.n Hm=f mSa … m IrTt NHs.y MDA NHsy ImA NHsy m WAwAt NHs.y m KAAw NHs.y *mH.w His majesty made an army… from Irtjet-Nehesy, Medjay-Nehesy, Yam-Nehesy, (and) from Wawat-Nehesy, from Kaau-Nehesy, and Tjemehu-Libyans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Nhs/Nehesy never had anything to do with Nubt. Nhs/Nehesy never referred to anything in Egypt but a collective term for the various tribes in Sudan that made up Kush. Today’s Nubians have nothing to do with Nhs/Nehesy because they are Indigenous to Egypt not Sudan.

---

How many more times are you going to repeat the same thing, without showing elaborated evidence?

quote:

---

4.1.1 Eastern Desert Dwellers (NHs.y, MDA.y)

There is no all-encompassing term for inhabitants of the Eastern Desert in Egyptian sources. The word NHs.y, while more commonly employed for ‘Nubians’ and ‘southerners’ in general, could be used for the inhabitants of the Eastern Desert (Medja-land). This impression is given by the autobiography of Weni, where all southern peoples, except the western *mH.w, are identified as NHs.y:246

iri.n Hm=f mSa … m IrTt NHs.y MDA NHsy ImA NHsy m WAwAt NHs.y m KAAw NHs.y *mH.w His majesty made an army… from Irtjet-Nehesy, Medjay-Nehesy, Yam-Nehesy, (and) from Wawat-Nehesy, from Kaau-Nehesy, and Tjemehu-Libyans.

---

~Julien Cooper
Toponymy on the Periphery:
Placenames of the Eastern Desert, Red Sea, and South Sinai in Egyptian Documents from the Early Dynastic until the end of the New Kingdom

---

quote:

---

verb (used with object), trans·lit·er·at·ed, trans·lit·er·at·ing.
to change (letters, words, etc.) into corresponding characters of another alphabet or language: to transliterate the Greek Χ as ch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The list says just the opposite and Julien's work on it states that as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

It explicitly shows that this is modern Egyptologists making it a reference to "black people"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:





In fact, the table states that Nehesy means "African"..... lol.

---

quote:

---

Old Kingdom

The oldest record of Nubian place names in Egyptian texts derives from the Old Kingdom.

Ignoring the very generic place names such as 6A-sty, the record of Nubian toponyms in the Old Kingdom is rather small.

The expedition narratives of Aswan nobles are the richest source of data, recording place names such as WAwAt, IrTt, ZATw, Mxr, 6rrz, and IAm.9 All these toponyms have been the object of compre- hensive studies relating to the identification of their location, but relatively little consideration is given to the linguistic origin of these words.10 Indeed, a marked feature of all these words is that many of them are reducible to Egyptian roots. IrTt is the common Egyptian word for “milk,” while ZAT.w can mean both “ground” and “libation-stone.” Mxr is a word for silo or low-lying land, comprised of an Egyptian m-prefix attached to the preposition xr “under.” There is then the problem of whether these designations are prosaic Egyptian terms for local geographical features, or rather were attempts at phonetically matching place names from local Nubian languages (a linguistic phenomenon known as “phono-semantic matching”). This phonetic matching has been proffered on a number of names in Egyptian history in the context of Nubia, but is not easily provable, especially when the linguistic identity of A-Group, C-Group, and Kerma ancient speakers is far from certain.

Of these Old Kingdom place names, WAwAt and IAm seem to be the only names that were passed on into texts of the Middle Kingdom and later; even IAm is found only sparingly in later contexts and has become obsolete by the New Kingdom. The word WAwAt has been re- lated to a Beja word for “dry” by El-Sayed, which might give us a clue to the linguistic geography of Lower Nubia (A- & C-Group speakers), but none of the other place names are easily matchable to any root in known languages of Sudan.11 It might well be that an as yet un- identified branch of Cushitic was spoken in Lower Nubia before the arrival of North Eastern Sudanic languages, such as Meroitic, in the Middle Nile Valley. A fragmentary relief from Userkaf’s funerary temple records some elsewhere unattested place names BAT, 1zT and 4n(s)h, all of which must be foreign names.12 These names are listed under the heading of tA nbw Dam “land of gold and electrum,” so it is plausible that they refer to auriferous zones in the Second-Third Cataract region or, alternatively, regions of the Eastern Desert.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

The list says just the opposite and Julien's work on it states that as well.

---

The schema doesn't state the opposite, it's you who interpreted the opposite, due to now reading the work.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

It explicitly shows that this is modern Egyptologists making it a reference to "black people"

---

There is no evidence for this.

In fact he stated these exact words: "and ‘southerners’ in general, could be used for the inhabitants of the Eastern Desert (Medja-land). This impression is given by the autobiography of Weni, where all southern peoples, except the western"

The word refers to the South in general. People living in the South.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:





In fact, the table states that Nehesy means "African"..... lol.

---

In order to understand the deeper meaning, one needs to read more about it in the book itself to see from where and what perspective he's reasoning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Old Kingdom

The oldest record of Nubian place names in Egyptian texts derives from the Old Kingdom.

Ignoring the very generic place names such as 6A-sty, the record of Nubian toponyms in the Old Kingdom is rather small.

The expedition narratives of Aswan nobles are the richest source of data, recording place names such as WAwAt, IrTt, ZATw, Mxr, 6rrz, and IAm.9 All these toponyms have been the object of compre- hensive studies relating to the identification of their location, but relatively little consideration is given to the linguistic origin of these words.10 Indeed, a marked feature of all these words is that many of them are reducible to Egyptian roots. IrTt is the common Egyptian word for “milk,” while ZAT.w can mean both “ground” and “libation-stone.” Mxr is a word for silo or low-lying land, comprised of an Egyptian m-prefix attached to the preposition xr “under.” There is then the problem of whether these designations are prosaic Egyptian terms for local geographical features, or rather were attempts at phonetically matching place names from local Nubian languages (a linguistic phenomenon known as “phono-semantic matching”). This phonetic matching has been proffered on a number of names in Egyptian history in the context of Nubia, but is not easily prov- able, especially when the linguistic identity of A-Group, C-Group, and Kerma ancien speakers is far from certain.

Of these Old Kingdom place names, WAwAt and IAm seem to be the only names that were passed on into texts of the Middle Kingdom and later; even IAm is found only sparingly in later contexts and has become obsolete by the New Kingdom. The word WAwAt has been re- lated to a Beja word for “dry” by El-Sayed, which might give us a clue to the linguistic geography of Lower Nubia (A- & C-Group speakers), but none of the other place names are easily matchable to any root in known languages of Sudan.11 It might well be that an as yet un- identified branch of Cushitic was spoken in Lower Nubia before the arrival of North Eastern Sudanic languages, such as Meroitic, in the Middle Nile Valley. A fragmentary relief from Userkaf’s funerary temple records some elsewhere unattested place names BAT, 1zT and 4n(s)h, all of which must be foreign names.12 These names are listed under the heading of tA nbw Dam “land of gold and electrum,” so it is plausible that they refer to auriferous zones in the Second-Third Cataract region or, alternatively, regions of the Eastern Desert.

---

~Cooper, Julien (2017) "Toponymic Strata in Ancient Nubia Until the Common Era," Dotawo: A Journal of Nubian Studies: Vol. 4 , Article 3

---

quote:

---

The expedition narratives of Aswan nobles are the richest source of data, recording place names such as WAwAt, IrTt, ZATw, Mxr, 6rrz, and IAm.9 All these toponyms have been the object of compre- hensive studies relating to the identification of their location, but relatively little consideration is given to the linguistic origin of these words.10 Indeed, a marked feature of all these words is that many of them are reducible to Egyptian roots. IrTt is the common Egyptian word for “milk,” while ZAT.w can mean both “ground” and “libation-stone.” Mxr is a word for silo or low-lying land, comprised of an Egyptian m-prefix attached to the preposition xr “under.” There is then the problem of whether these designations are prosaic Egyptian terms for local geographical features, or rather were attempts at phonetically matching place names from local Nubian languages (a linguistic phenomenon known as “phono-semantic matching”). This phonetic matching has been proffered on a number of names in Egyptian history in the context of Nubia, but is not easily prov- able, [especially when the linguistic identity of A-Group, C-Group, and Kerma ancien speakers is far from certain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The only evidence we have of a Nubia is an Ancient Egyptian word for Gold and a City called Nubt. Until you can find the term anywhere else my argument remains valid. Today’s Nubians are those very same people of Nubt. They are not immigrants and they claim no foreign origin. Go to Aswan and they will tell you that is their home. I don’t understand why you don’t listen to the words of The Nubians themselves and just prefer to listen to Egyptologists Mumbo Jumbo.

---

This is a Youtube channel by an African American woman who travels in Africa. She also visited Egypt, Cairo; Aswan and other places.


Click the link: EAT LOVE MIGRATE, WAS COMING TO EGYPT A MISTAKE?

---

I’ve seen her channel. Nothing new to me. Nubians are an Indigenous Egyptian people and not a single poster has proved me wrong.

---

What did you learn from her channel? I told her to go to the Southern parts and how amazing it would be.

And I don't know why you obfuscate terms and people. It's the same people, yes. But you started to tangle up people and terminology.


What does this say:

p=2#000076

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
@ Ish Gebor None of the links you posted disprove the fact that The Nubians originate from Nubt so what are you trying to prove?. The reason The AE never spoke of a foreign separate people called ''Nubians'' is because The City of Nubt existed right in The Aswan Governate in Egypt so the people of Nubt(Nubians of today) were Egyptians not foreigners and not apart of some unified foreign group restricted to South of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The only evidence we have of a Nubia is an Ancient Egyptian word for Gold and a City called Nubt. Until you can find the term anywhere else my argument remains valid. Today’s Nubians are those very same people of Nubt. They are not immigrants and they claim no foreign origin. Go to Aswan and they will tell you that is their home. I don’t understand why you don’t listen to the words of The Nubians themselves and just prefer to listen to Egyptologists Mumbo Jumbo.

---

This is a Youtube channel by an African American woman who travels in Africa. She also visited Egypt, Cairo; Aswan and other places.


Click the link: EAT LOVE MIGRATE, WAS COMING TO EGYPT A MISTAKE?

---

I’ve seen her channel. Nothing new to me. Nubians are an Indigenous Egyptian people and not a single poster has proved me wrong.

---

What did you learn from her channel? I told her to go to the Southern parts and how amazing it would be.

And I don't know why you obfuscate terms and people. It's the same people, yes. But you started to tangle up people and terminology.


What does this say:

p=2#000076

---

I didn't learn anything that I didn't already know. I see you are agreeing that The Nubians do originate from Nubt so why are we still debating? and that link you posted does not translate to Nubian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The oldest recorded example of the word is from Nubt The City of Gold which is WITHIN EGYPT!. We have zero mention of the word anywhere else during The Pharaonic period.

---

We are talking about the word "Nubian", not "Nubt". Stay focused. You have bolstered the word Nubian on several occasion. Now elaborate on it. (tap tap tap).

You stated the Nubians are from Southern Egypt. Meaning Nubt is in Southern Egypt. Where in Southern Egypt are gold mines?

Remember Nubt means gold, correct? My issues is, when was the word Nubian first used and by whom?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Here we have a political entity, ancient Egypt and they have numbered the districts of their nation.
the one at the southern end is "1"

So now we look at a term "Nubian" that came in during the Roman era and the meaning for the Romans of Nubian
is "nations to the south of Egypt"

If Egyptologists came over 1000 years later and said
Nubia is where the blacks are and Egypt was non-Blacks that isn't a problem with the word Nubia

If you think the Egyptians were black then the problem is Egyptologists not saying Egypt was black also and that has nothing to do with the word "Nubia"


It is only going to confuse things to bring up Egyptologist when the word is over 1000 years older than Egyptology
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
It's not ''could be'' IT IS!. We have evidence of an Ancient Egyptian City with this same exact name so what more evidence do you need?. You're telling me The Romans just so magically and coincidentally came up with the same exact name all on their own when we know that Nubt was apart of their province? BULLSHIT!. Nubian derives from Nubt period and The Nubians of Aswan are those very people of Nubt. I don't understand why you can't accept this.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
So now we look at a term "Nubian" that came in during the Roman era and the meaning for the Romans of Nubian
is "nations to the south of Egypt"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The oldest recorded example of the word is from Nubt The City of Gold which is WITHIN EGYPT!. We have zero mention of the word anywhere else during The Pharaonic period.

---

We are talking about the word "Nubian", not "Nubt". Stay focused. You have bolstered the word Nubian on several occasion. Now elaborate on it. (tap tap tap).

You stated the Nubians are from Southern Egypt. Meaning Nubt is in Southern Egypt. Where in Southern Egypt are gold mines?

Remember Nubt means gold, correct? My issues is, when was the word Nubian first used and by whom?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
It's not ''could be'' IT IS!. We have evidence of an Ancient Egyptian City with this same exact name so what more evidence do you need?.

You're telling me The Romans just so magically and coincidentally came up with the same exact name all on their own when we know that Nubt was apart of their province?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:


BULLSHIT!. Nubian derives from Nubt period and The Nubians of Aswan are those very people of Nubt. I don't understand why you can't accept this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The oldest recorded example of the word is from Nubt The City of Gold which is WITHIN EGYPT!. We have zero mention of the word anywhere else during The Pharaonic period.

---

We are talking about the word "Nubian", not "Nubt". Stay focused. You have bolstered the word Nubian on several occasion. Now elaborate on it. (tap tap tap).

You stated the Nubians are from Southern Egypt. Meaning Nubt is in Southern Egypt. Where in Southern Egypt are gold mines?

Remember Nubt means gold, correct? My issues is, when was the word Nubian first used and by whom?

---

You keep making a distinction between the two terms when they are the same. The ''IAN'' in the word just means belonging to or like. Thus Nubian means people belonging to Nubt. just like ''Italian'' means belonging to Italy. Nubians means belonging to Nubt.

Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.

-ian - Wiktionary
en.wiktionary.org › wiki › -ian

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The evidence is in the name and the fact that we have a living breathing group of people living in the same exact location with the same exact name. You're question is as silly as asking me to prove that the name ''Italian'' derives from the country of Italy. Nubians call The Aswan governate their home which is where Nubt was located and have no records of a migration from anywhere else. This is clear and unshaken. If you continue to debate me after this then you must have an agenda.

---

quote:

---

The only gold-mines that would offer such a medial position between the Allaqi region and Punt would be the mines of Onib and Oshib, in the Red Sea Hills in the region west of Suakin and Port Sudan. 1283 As the Sabu inscription [78.12] is in the Kerma region, the likelihood is that amw represents a gold source much further south and east than Kerma. The chronological distribution of amw in texts also makes sense for this location, as references to amw only occur from Hatshepsut until Ramesses III, when Egyptian hegemony in Nubia was at its greatest extent, allowing Egyptians to reach new gold sources on their southernmost periphery.

The exhaustive surveys of Klemm and Klemm have identified New Kingdom era goldmines in this district, which stretch from Gebel el-Nigeim, approximately 80 km from the Nile at Hagr elMerwa to Khor Nubt, approximately 300km to the east. 1284 Such a region would explain how amw-gold could reach markets on both the Nile Valley and further southeast in Punt. Kitchen inferred the existence of this substance in Puntite trade meant that Amu was proximal to this country. 1285 Power remarks that, in the Islamic period, this region was one of the major regions of the ninth century CE ‘gold-rush’, and the coastal ports of the area owed their existence to gold found in the hinterland. 1286 The unique product of amw in the Punt Expedition [78.1], nbw wAD ‘green gold’, is usually thought to refer to gold with a high copper or silver content, 1287 but Falk instead suggested that it simply reads as ‘gold and malachite of Amu’. 1288 While the proximity of Punt and Amu seems certain because of the Punt Expedition Text, pragmatically, one may doubt that Egyptians would have been aware of its origin and labelled it as ‘of Amu’ if it was traded through Puntites. Rather, this text might suggest that Egyptians directly procured the ‘Amumalachite’ from the environs of Amu on the return or outgoing voyage to Punt, thus placing Amu close to the Red Sea shore.

---

quote:

---

Classic Kerma was the golden age of the kingdom. It was during this period that its rulers successfully took control of Egyptian fortresses and gold mines in the Second cataract. The kingdom kept on attacking and capturing Egyptian territories until around 1500 BC Thutmose I attacked Kerma itself and annexed the kingdom into the Egyptian Empire.

The Nubian name for Kerma is Doki which means Red Hill. The city of Kerma itself has been inhabited for 9,500 years. Kerma was ruled by a mixture of a lineage-based elite and priests. The cultural ties between Kerma and Egypt is similar to two regional states within one people


Distribution of gold in the Sudanese Eastern Desert. Shadowed areas mark the main gold-bearing regions. Triangle – Kermite assemblage, Green lozenges – Eastern Sudan assemblage, Square – Middle Nubian assemblage and Rounded symbols – Pan-grave assemblage. An assemblage is an archaeological term for a group of artefacts that can be grouped by context

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Nubians being the Native Blacks of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

Wrong. They are THE! Kushites. I already stated numerous times that The Dinka/Nuer are The direct descendants of The Ancient Kushites. I posted on numerous occasions about the word Kush surviving today as ''KOC/KAS'' in The Dinka language. I've posted about Koch County in South Sudan. I've posted about Herodotus's description of The people of Meroe as being the tallest people in the world. I've posted about how The Dinka are cattle-herders like The Ancient Kushites. I've posted about The Greek vases that depict The Kushites with the same exact orange cow urine grooming practice. I've said a Zillion times that The Nubians are Indigenous to Southern Egypt and that their name derives from The city of Nubt which is located in The Aswan Governate where they originated and emerged as a people and where they were granted a right to return. I've made it abundantly clear from my first post that The Nubians have nothing to do with Kush but were and have always been Indigenous Egyptians and that they have never claimed nor have an oral history of a migration.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor, on your discussion with Doug I recommend going back to the topic

Todays Nubians are Descendants of The Ancient Egyptians

and reviewing carefully the article I posted there on page 1 called

Nubia, Kom Ombo (the city of gold) in Ta Seti

---

Yes, the fact that there are small pyramids in modern Sudan tells us that "Nubia" was larger than what is considered now. I think an abundance of gold was taken to what is called "Kom Ombo", from further South.


Even today we see that Sudan has wealth in raw materials.


 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

Wrong. They are THE! Kushites. I already stated numerous times that The Dinka/Nuer are The direct descendants of The Ancient Kushites. I posted on numerous occasions about the word Kush surviving today as ''KOC/KAS'' in The Dinka language. I've posted about Koch County in South Sudan. I've posted about Herodotus's description of The people of Meroe as being the tallest people in the world. I've posted about how The Dinka are cattle-herders like The Ancient Kushites. I've posted about The Greek vases that depict The Kushites with the same exact orange cow urine grooming practice. I've said a Zillion times that The Nubians are Indigenous to Southern Egypt and that their name derives from The city of Nubt which is located in The Aswan Governate where they originated and emerged as a people and where they were granted a right to return. I've made it abundantly clear from my first post that The Nubians have nothing to do with Kush but were and have always been Indigenous Egyptians and that they have never claimed nor have an oral history of a migration.

---

Again you are wrong and confused as usual! The Kushites were a totally different group of people who likely spoke Afrasian language. The ancestors of the Dinka and Nuer were people under the Kushite Empire and they were depicted differently with different features and clothing from the actual Kushites.

And I told you a zillion times the name 'Nubia' is a Greek and later Roman term for the lands south of Egypt i.e. SOUTH of Aswan. The name is neither of Greek or Latin etymology so it likely comes from the Egyptian word Nubt or golden but that doesn't mean it refers to the city in Khentet province in Aswan!! The name 'Nubia' is NOT a reference to Aswan but the lands bordering it to south that are NOT Egyptian and the name references that they are rich in gold!! The Egyptians themselves did not call these people Nubian or Nubt but Nehesi or other names which indicate they are NOT Kmtwy (Egyptian)!! What's wrong with you??

---

quote:

---

There is no all-encompassing term for inhabitants of the Eastern Desert in Egyptian sources. The word NHs.y, while more commonly employed for ‘Nubians’ and ‘southerners’ in general, could be used for the inhabitants of the Eastern Desert (Medja-land). This impression is given by the autobiography of Weni, where all southern peoples, except the western *mH.w, are identified as NHs.y:246

---

 

---

Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
The people in Aswan, Luxor, Kom Ombos never saw themselves as non Egyptian until after the fall of pharonic civilization and the introduction on invaders onto Egyptian soil.
The Egyptians in Aswan, Luxor, Kom Ombos, the folks who gave us Amun, the 12th Dynasty, the New Kingdoms etc. were just as important to the identiy and history of Egypt as anyone from Cairo and the Delta.

Ask them and they will tell you who they are..

The Ta-Setian Phenotype dominates what constituted an Egyptian and thus proper humanity in Egyptian art.

The "Nubian" concept is a bastardization and gross distortion of the history of Kemet, and deprives the people of Upper Egypt from their history. Worst of all "Nubia" is a foreign racist term pushed by invaders to Egyptian soil, and forced upon the Ta-Seti Egyptians by colonization and rule from countless occupiers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There is a Museum in Aswan called the Nubian Museum. It has sculptures and other ancient objects in it. There are people ins Aswan that call themselves Nubian.

So why do we need all this talk ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
The people in Aswan, Luxor, Kom Ombos never saw themselves as non Egyptian until after the fall of pharonic civilization and the introduction on invaders onto Egyptian soil.
The Egyptians in Aswan, Luxor, Kom Ombos, the folks who gave us Amun, the 12th Dynasty, the New Kingdoms etc. were just as important to the identiy and history of Egypt as anyone from Cairo and the Delta.

Ask them and they will tell you who they are..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There is a Museum in Aswan called the Nubian Museum. It has sculptures and other ancient objects in it. There are people ins Aswan that call themselves Nubian.

So why do we need all this talk ?

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The evidence is in the name and the fact that we have a living breathing group of people living in the same exact location with the same exact name. You're question is as silly as asking me to prove that the name ''Italian'' derives from the country of Italy. Nubians call The Aswan governate their home which is where Nubt was located and have no records of a migration from anywhere else. This is clear and unshaken. If you continue to debate me after this then you must have an agenda.

---

Note there are two different places in Egypt called Nubt



In the lower potion of this map shows Kom Ombo
30 miles North of Aswan where one of the Nubts was

.


.


^^ this is the other Nubt also where a predynastic site known as Naqada is located.
This Nubt is in the Qena protectorate 117 miles from Kom Ombo and 144 miles away from Aswan

So if you want to talk about who is living in the Nubt where Naqada is it is the people of the Qena protectorate not Kom Ombo near Aswan which was the location of the other Nubt.
On this lower map near the bottom we also see Kom Ombo but the Nubt there was not the Naqada site one
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Egypt is a land rich in gold, and ancient miners employing traditional methods were thorough in their exploitation of economically feasible sources. In addition to the resources of the Eastern Desert, Egypt had access to the riches of Nubia, which is reflected in its ancient name, nbw (the Egyptian word for gold). The hieroglyph for gold—a broad collar—appears with the beginning of writing in Dynasty 1, but the earliest surviving gold artifacts date to the preliterate days of the fourth millennium B.C.; these are mostly beads and other modest items used for personal adornment. Gold jewelry intended for daily life or use in temple or funerary ritual continued to be produced throughout Egypt’s long history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The evidence is in the name and the fact that we have a living breathing group of people living in the same exact location with the same exact name. You're question is as silly as asking me to prove that the name ''Italian'' derives from the country of Italy. Nubians call The Aswan governate their home which is where Nubt was located and have no records of a migration from anywhere else. This is clear and unshaken. If you continue to debate me after this then you must have an agenda.

---

Note there are two different places in Egypt called Nubt

In the lower potion of this map shows Kom Ombo
30 miles North of Aswan where one of the Nubts was


^^ this is the other Nubt also where a predynastic site known as Naqada is located.
This Nubt is in the Qena protectorate 117 miles from Kom Ombo and 144 miles away from Aswan

So if you want to talk about who is living in the Nubt where Naqada is it is the people of the Qena protectorate not Kom Ombo near Aswan which was the location of the other Nubt.
On this lower map near the bottom we also see Kom Ombo but the Nubt there was not the Naqada site one

---

This map shows both places.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^ Yes, that shows two Nubts in two different locations. The more Northern one is where the Naqada cemetery is
The more southern Nubt is the one 30 miles north of Aswan
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Ish Gebor, Smirk seems to think the only blacks in modern Egypt are ones called Nubian
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me

"Nubia" is a foreign racist term pushed by invaders to Egyptian soil, and forced upon the Ta-Seti Egyptians by colonization and rule from countless occupiers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor, Smirk seems to think the only blacks in modern Egypt are ones called Nubian

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] Ish Gebor, Smirk seems to think the only blacks in modern Egypt are ones called Nubian

---

Technically that is correct.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor, Smirk seems to think the only blacks in modern Egypt are ones called Nubian

---

Technically that is correct.

---

So what cities are blacks in in modern Egypt?

---

That is difficult to say, because you will find people all over Egypt who by western standards are considered Black. But the more to the South you go, the more "stereotypical African (negroid)" they look, but it's not exceptional to the South.


The way these boys look is not uncommon and you will see this in all parts of Egypt.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
do you consider any of the above boys to be black?
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
The Ancient Indigenous Nubts of Southern Egypt are alive and well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Zy7UL4298

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
do you consider all of the above boys to be black?

---

People like them do consider themselves Black, that is what I got from the people when I was there, while interacting with them. We did feel camaraderie and they thought that I was coming back home, visiting family (literally, not figuratively). And yes, in the western world they are considered Black. Are they "Congoid"? No, that not. They would fit the Sahara-Sahel type Africans, which historically is correct.


The first thing I saw when I arrived at Sharm-el-Sheikh was a female in a mall. She had with a large Afro. And she reminded me of a Cape Verdean friend with the same complexion and Afro-style. She looked like this Moroccan female:




See the TRUTHTEACHER2007 6 part series, "Origins and identity of the Egyptian people past and present":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtWLry9o70c&list=PLYz10dOqDilSEeUIZWHX1X3wvtf2vXpxD&index=1
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
@Ish Gebor they are all Black regardless but The Nubians I posted in my videos could easily blend in any Black community in The United States. They have a variety of Phenotypes and skin tones just like The AE.

Both of the men in this video are Upper Egyptians yet they look like they could be African-American.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpXAhDQfpCo
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
@Ish Gebor they are all Black regardless but The Nubians I posted in my videos could easily blend in any Black community in The United States. They have a variety of Phenotypes and skin tones just like The AE.

Both of the men in this video are Upper Egyptians yet they look like they could be African-American.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpXAhDQfpCo

---

You don't have to post videos for me to show what they look like, I have been there myself. Into several parts of Egypt. Botanical island etc. I have seen it all. As I told before on this forum, there was this manager on the cruise ship who looked like Evander Holyfield's twin. When I was on the plain in Cairo there was a dude who was Farrell's twin with the tattoo in the neck and all.

The music the had back then, was Hip Hop beats with Arabic influences. A bit like Ragga muffin with Hip Hop beats.

It's costume to hold a crocodile at Kom Ombo, but I didn't do it, because I'm not crazy.

This is what the female on average looks like in Egypt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX4xaQkgaIo
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] do you consider all of the above boys to be black?

---

People like them do consider themselves Black, their is what I got from the people when I was there, while interacting with them. We did feel camaraderie and they thought that I was coming back home, visiting family (literally, not figuratively). And yes, in the western world they are considered Black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
you didn't start of with "yes" That seems to be telling

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Also the perception of who is black or not is not the same in every European country compared to America

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Some more Northern Europeans countries where there is a larger average of light skin that the U.S. will call people black that many American would not call black. For instance I heard a reference made to a school that was primarily Turkish immigrants being called a "black school". Americans wouldn't say that

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Also people in certain in African counties might not call each of these boys black. Some African Americans who are moderately light skinned sometimes get called white in certain African counties

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

So it is a very relative subjective term

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Also the perception of who is black or not is not the same in every European country compared to America

---

That is not true. It's both a Western inspired concept. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
That does not mean the average person from one Western country will always call a given individual black that another person in another Western country would call black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
That does not mean the average person from one Western country will always call a given individual black that another person in another Western country would call black.

---

Yes, they will if them don't know any better, they will consider them North African of mix them up with being "biracial". In the end they are considered Black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
That does not mean the average person from one Western country will always call a given individual black that another person in another Western country would call black.

---

Yes, they will if them don't know any better, they will consider them North African of mix them up with being "biracial". In the end they are considered Black.

---

there are many people in America who consider biracial people biracial or mixed
not black

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

and some people are not 50/50 either.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
That does not mean the average person from one Western country will always call a given individual black that another person in another Western country would call black.

---

Yes, they will if them don't know any better, they will consider them North African of mix them up with being "biracial". In the end they are considered Black.

---

there are many people in America who consider biracial people biracial or mixed
not black

---

That is a recent phenomena due to the nationalist movement that has come within recent times. Due to the mass immigration, which tend to take slots from the already living Black population in America. The response by Black Americans is a natural response to protectionism.

With that being said, there are Black Americans who do look like them and vice versa. You are trying too hard and you still fail.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

and some people are not 50/50 either.

---

That is your opinion, which is baseless to begin with.

And now we are back to the usual thing, which is an endless conversation of nothingness, when I already answered you. The response is not going to change.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I don't believe in the race theory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I don't believe in the race theory.

---

To call a biracial person "black" is race theory

To call every object that is brown colored "brown" but then when referring to certain brown colored people as "black"

that is race theory

---

Yes, it's race theory. A concept that was created within the last 400-500 years in the western world. To marginalize the non-white, especially those of African descent. And certainly in America.

Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
race

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
A concept that was created within the last 400-500 years in the western world. To marginalize the non-white, especially those of African descent. And certainly in America.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Nubians have looked the way they do today since Ta-Seti. Their genetic variation is due to their climate. They are Desert Africans. They are just as Black as Greeks are White. I’m White American of European Descent. I had no idea that this was a predominately Black forum until I joined. Regardless I neither subscribe to Eurocentricty nor Afrocentricity and I think they are both Pseudo-Ethnocentric offshoots of true unbiased scientific study of History. Nonetheless I do know that The Ancient Egyptians Were Black Africans but I’m Vehemently opposed to Pseudo-Afrocentric claims of Black Hebrew nonsense ,Black Aboriginal nonsense ,Black Arabia nonsense , Black Jesus nonsense, Black Asiatic nonsense, Black Indian nonsense , Black Native American nonsense and ridiculous nonsensical claims of Black Europeans. If The Black Egyptologists would just dismantle these ridiculous Blackface ideologies then Western Academia would have no argument against Black Egypt. I never understood why Afrocentrics can’t just be happy with Egypt and not feel the need to dip every Civilization on earth in Chocolate.

---

quote:

---

INTRODUCTION

The Oriental Institute participated in the UNESCO international salvage excavation project in the reservoir area of the Aswan High Dam in Upper Egypt in 1960-64. The project was directed by Keith Seele, Professor of Egyptology at the Institute. The expedition was based on the former Cook tourist boat "Fostat", accompanied by another houseboat, the "Barbara", a tug boat, and a motor launch, all purchased and modified to provide mobile housing, laboratories and storage space. In the first season the project produced an epigraphic record of the Beit El-Wali Temple, near the High Dam. In subsequent seasons the expedition moved its little fleet up the Nile to a new concession between the temples at Abu Simbel and the border of the Sudanese Republic. Excavations were conducted in a monastery, at habitation sites, and in a number of cemeteries extending for miles along both banks of the Nile. These excavations contributed information on every period of Egyptian Nubia from the Old Kingdom through Coptic times.

After the death of Professor Seele in 1971, the Institute initiated a project to complete the publication of the results of the Egyptian Nubia excavations. The publication project was entrusted to Bruce Williams, Ph.D., a graduate of the University of Chicago in Egyptology. The first two volumes were published before Williams was assigned to the project. Since then Williams has completed eight monumental monographs (1986-93) that will stand as the fundamental sources for the archaeology and history of Egyptian Nubia. Williams is currently working on two additional volumes. Another two volumes are also in preparation by collaborators, including one Ph.D. dissertation. Williams has devoted his entire academic career to the Nubia publications. His dedication is admirable and the Institute takes pride in the fact that the Nubia publication project is near completion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
I agree with you 100%,hell I dont even think Egypt was a "Black" empire in the strictest sense, in that there were Eurasian types in KMT for a while(Going back to the Unification or even earlier IMO). But I dont pretend that the dominant type that ruled Egypt for the majority of its 3000 year history are the same folks in Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan today, the so called modern Nubian and Fallahin people...

Its a shame how non Egyptians and non Africans have managed to steal these's people rightful claim to Egyptian heritage. No other people have had this done to them. No one claims or portrays the Ancient Chinese as non-Chinese,

no one else in the world has to deal with racist click-bait DNA studies attributing the culture and empire built by the blood sweat and tears of their ancestors to a completely different set of people, then sneakily like the low-life racist they are admiting(burried deep in their gobbledy-gook) that their racist- click bait DNA study didn't really prove anything afterall.

No other people have to deal with this, from the ancient Aztec to the Hawaiians, Chinese etc. have their culture and ancestors respected.

The Nubians and Upper Egyptians are some of the most humble, kindest people in history. They never discriminated against folks skin color, even when they ruled over various so called races. They had European, Asiatic and Coastal Berber whites who lived near the land of KM.T as qualified to Amun ressurection in their tombs, and invited Greeks and Sea-People Indo-Europeans to like in the land of Km.t

Ancient Egypt that was build by the Fallahin and Nubian peoples, never stood for racist, black pride or anti-White. Whites were always open to settle in Km.t if they assimilated and didnt try to bring chaos.

I might not be descended from the Ancient Egyptians but I have the deepest respect for these amazing people

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=990Q8C2dM9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhlQwt7J18M


Faces of Egypt, Aswan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UomZ5qSXu8&t=178s

Elephantine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZsLS3mSy48&t=11s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCPCbE4xhcc&t=11s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYA01i4dzCM

Kom Ombos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XMLl3arthg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx0fqBt2yB0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyYy5BWnqpA

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Nubians have looked the way they do today since Ta-Seti. Their genetic variation is due to their climate. They are Desert Africans. They are just as Black as Greeks are White. I’m White American of European Descent. I had no idea that this was a predominately Black forum until I joined. Regardless I neither subscribe to Eurocentricty nor Afrocentricity and I think they are both Pseudo-Ethnocentric offshoots of true unbiased scientific study of History. Nonetheless I do know that The Ancient Egyptians Were Black Africans but I’m Vehemently opposed to Pseudo-Afrocentric claims of Black Hebrew nonsense ,Black Aboriginal nonsense ,Black Arabia nonsense , Black Jesus nonsense, Black Asiatic nonsense, Black Indian nonsense , Black Native American nonsense and ridiculous nonsensical claims of Black Europeans. If The Black Egyptologists would just dismantle these ridiculous Blackface ideologies then Western Academia would have no argument against Black Egypt. I never understood why Afrocentrics can’t just be happy with Egypt and not feel the need to dip every Civilization on earth in Chocolate.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Again, as I said before, the so-called "Nubian" museum of Aswan has a lot of Kushite artifacts versus artifacts around Aswan and just South of Aswan. And this begs the question what the hell is Nubia in ancient history.

Remember:

quote:

---

INTRODUCTION

The Oriental Institute participated in the UNESCO international salvage excavation project in the reservoir area of the Aswan High Dam in Upper Egypt in 1960-64. The project was directed by Keith Seele, Professor of Egyptology at the Institute. The expedition was based on the former Cook tourist boat "Fostat", accompanied by another houseboat, the "Barbara", a tug boat, and a motor launch, all purchased and modified to provide mobile housing, laboratories and storage space. In the first season the project produced an epigraphic record of the Beit El-Wali Temple, near the High Dam. In subsequent seasons the expedition moved its little fleet up the Nile to a new concession between the temples at Abu Simbel and the border of the Sudanese Republic. Excavations were conducted in a monastery, at habitation sites, and in a number of cemeteries extending for miles along both banks of the Nile. These excavations contributed information on every period of Egyptian Nubia from the Old Kingdom through Coptic times.

After the death of Professor Seele in 1971, the Institute initiated a project to complete the publication of the results of the Egyptian Nubia excavations. The publication project was entrusted to Bruce Williams, Ph.D., a graduate of the University of Chicago in Egyptology. The first two volumes were published before Williams was assigned to the project. Since then Williams has completed eight monumental monographs (1986-93) that will stand as the fundamental sources for the archaeology and history of Egyptian Nubia. Williams is currently working on two additional volumes. Another two volumes are also in preparation by collaborators, including one Ph.D. dissertation. Williams has devoted his entire academic career to the Nubia publications. His dedication is admirable and the Institute takes pride in the fact that the Nubia publication project is near completion.

---

https://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/nubia-salvage-project

Now all along the Nile between Aswan and Abu Simbel, you have ancient monuments that were built by THE EGYPTIANS and recovered by archaeologists. It is this region that people were calling "Nubia". But those were always part of Egypt and never outside of Egypt. Anything on the other side of Abu Simbel is Egypt. Period.

All this back and forth is simply ridiculous because the concept of "Nubia" as defined by Egyptologists is Bull Sh*t. Weni did not consider the lands around Aswan as part of Nubia. Saying that "Nehesi" is the equal to "Nubian" makes no sense because Egyptologist include people around Aswan as "Nubians". The people around Aswan were always part of Egypt. That is the point. They were never part of some separate place called "Nubia". So how far South are we talking about when we say "southerner"? There is no clear boundary on this and someone in the Delta saying "Southerner" could mean anybody South of the Delta. It is a meaningless term and doesn't justify Egyptology lumping all these people together from Aswan to the 6th cataract as one entity. They werent and the AE never identified them as such.

People keep claiming the autobiography of Weni shows that Nehesy referred to all people to the South of Egypt but it doesn't. It calls out specific groups by name such as Wawat, Yam, Irtet and so forth. And then in later times they did start to use the term Southerner, but this generally was in the context of lands further south then the second cataract, ie. Kush, Kerma and Meroe. Those people should not be lumped together with people around Aswan or north of the 2nd cataract. They were never part of an entity called "Nubia".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
@DougM You're absolutely correct. Since I've been a Member I've maintained that The Nubians were never apart of Kush but are The people of Ancient Nubt which was located in Aswan. Those people had nothing to do with Kush, Kerma, Meroe and Napata. The people who established Kush were Dinka/Nuer South Sudanese types not Nubians. If you want a living example of what the people of Kush, Meroe, Kerma and Napata looked like then take a look at Basketball player Manute Bol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIEgtlaNB-w

---

quote:

---

The region of Nubia begins at the point just south of Khartoum in the Sudan where the Blue and White Nile join, and is linked to Egypt by the Nile River, which flows northward through both lands to the Mediterranean. Riverine navigation in Nubia was impeded by a series of six narrow, rocky passages called cataracts, areas where granite outcrops emerge from beneath the softer sandstone that underlays most of the Nile Valley (fig. 1). The First Cataract, just south of Aswan in Egypt, marks the separation of Egypt and Nubia, while the Second Cataract separates Upper (southern) and Lower (northern) Nubia. Fertile land was not continuous along the roughly 160 miles of the Nubian Nile; rather, cultivated areas beside the river were interspersed with desert sands and rocky mountains.

Over the millennia a series of cultures and kingdoms rose and fell in Nubia, but the Nubian people did not have a written language of their own until the Meroitic Period (ca. 275 B.C.–300 A.D.). As a result, our knowledge of their history and culture derives either from Egyptian sources, which are often biased against other societies, or archaeological excavations. While some scientific exploration of Nubia took place in the early to mid-nineteenth century, extensive work began only in the early twentieth century, when a dam was first constructed at Aswan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Many of the concepts and interpretations we have with ancient Egypt were formed by Europeans who translated the Mdu-ntr and imposed their own racial ideologies popular in the 19th and 20th centiry onto the Egyptian records.

NHSY were never a racial class, and simply a term for different Tribes to the South of Egypt's traditional borders, some were enemes some were allies.

Claiming that NSHY simply means Southerner is like saying all the tribes listed under the term barbarian in Greco-Roman records were Northern Europeans.Its way more complicated of course.

For example, you mention Abu Simbel was a Speo, a tomb that was invented and brought to Egypt by so called Neheshi and Ta-seti Royals, Ramses II created Abu Simbel to impress the Nehesi and Egyptians who lived in this area and beyond

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Ok but since we agree that The Nubians of Aswan have always been apart of Egypt(KMT) then this proves that they were not apart of The Kingdoms further South in Sudan like Kush, Kerma ETC. They originated in Nubt in The Aswan Governate and later moved to Northern Sudan but they were never apart of Kush. They were always Egyptians from Nubt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
OK while I agree that it's modern usage in The Egyptological sense is not valid. I do contend that it is a historical name but that the name was never used in the racial and regional sense that it's being used in today. It was simply the name of an Ancient Egyptian City and the name designated Gold. Nothing more Nothing less.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
I also only approve of Nubt as being the name of a city. However people are generally named after Cities and regions so even if The AE texts don't name people by cities. It doesn't negate the fact that the people of Nubt would have referred to themselves as such.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
AE texts speak of Nubt as a city and not a people doesn't mean that the people living in that city didn't refer to themselves by that name.

---

Again, making it up as you go along

go here and do some studying

https://books.google.com/
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



--Reveal and Conceal: Dress in Contemporary Egypt
By Andrea B. Rugh
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
I didn't make anything up and I study on a daily basis. You have you're mind made up so anything I tell you is meaningless. The Nubians are the people of Nubt and no amount of links and Egyptological sources you post change that fact. We have ancient evidence of the name and a present day people still carrying the name yet you're still arguing with me. So either you really do disagree with me or you're just finding ways to circle around the clear connection through manipulation of words.
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
I read it and I see nothing in there that denies that The Nubians are Indigenous Egyptians.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The city of Nubt which is located in The Aswan Governate where they originated and emerged as a people and where they were granted a right to return.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
race

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
A concept that was created within the last 400-500 years in the western world. To marginalize the non-white, especially those of African descent. And certainly in America.

---

If this is the case there are at least two reactions someone could take

1) yes, I am black and there's nothing wrong with that

2) I don't believe in the race theory. I don't group myself by color type and if you ask me what color my skin is, it's brown

---

If this was the case? There is no if. It's a historical fact.

1) Yes, I am Black and I don't believe in race theory, because from a scientific point of view I know is an arbitrary reasoning. However, in daily activities, from a social point of view I know it plays part.

You as a self-proclaimed Black woman in America should know this and understand this. But since you are faking it, you don't.

2) There is more than just being "brown" (Black metaphorically), because I didn't tell the whole thing to you, while spending time in Egypt. They consider themselves African as well and to them that is very important.

A few things combined is what made the conversation and experience defining.

They know what's going on outside of Egypt, with white trolls.

Now, be brave and answer my question. Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity?
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
The Nubians have looked the way they do today since Ta-Seti. Their genetic variation is due to their climate. They are Desert Africans. They are just as Black as Greeks are White. I’m White American of European Descent. I had no idea that this was a predominately Black forum until I joined. Regardless I neither subscribe to Eurocentricty nor Afrocentricity and I think they are both Pseudo-Ethnocentric offshoots of true unbiased scientific study of History. Nonetheless I do know that The Ancient Egyptians Were Black Africans but I’m Vehemently opposed to Pseudo-Afrocentric claims of Black Hebrew nonsense ,Black Aboriginal nonsense ,Black Arabia nonsense , Black Jesus nonsense, Black Asiatic nonsense, Black Indian nonsense , Black Native American nonsense and ridiculous nonsensical claims of Black Europeans. If The Black Egyptologists would just dismantle these ridiculous Blackface ideologies then Western Academia would have no argument against Black Egypt. I never understood why Afrocentrics can’t just be happy with Egypt and not feel the need to dip every Civilization on earth in Chocolate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
[QB] I never said that they only existed in Nubt. I said that Nubt is where they originated from as a people. The Nubt I'm speaking of was located in The Aswan governate which Nubians have been living in since Pre-Dynastic times. You are forgetting that they were granted a right to return to a location WITHIN EGYPT!.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92

The reason they were relocated to Nubt is because they have been restricted to areas in the southern most tip of the country.

---

Again you have it wrong, the Aswan governate is not a country and they were moved North not South



they were moved TO Kom Ombo which is where one of the Nubts was
and they want to use the right of move south
FROM whence they came

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
. Now to answer you're question those people living in Qena today are Mixed Hybrids with only minimal relation to The Ancient Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
See we have enough evidence that Ancient Egypt was Black. However we have ZERO evidence that any Asian, American or European Civilizations were ever Black at anytime in history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
See we have enough evidence that Ancient Egypt was Black. However we have ZERO evidence that any Asian, American or European Civilizations were ever Black at anytime in history.

---

quote:

---

Indeed their very translocation at this early date has been controversial, since the domesticated forms of these plants in India appear for the most part thousands of years before similar evidence in Africa. This led to the suggestion that sorghum was moved as a wild plant, domesticated in India and then re-introduced to Africa in the first millennium BC (Haaland 1999). The current absence of domesticated sorghum in Africa at the relevant time period almost certainly reflects the lack of excavated sites bearing sorghum remains, however, rather than a real absence of the domesticated forms. This has begun to be demonstrated through new studies that have led to finds of pearl millet and cowpea in western Africa (Ghana and/or Mali) that predate those of India (D’Andrea et al. 2001, 2007; Manning et al. 2011; Manning and Fuller 2014), and that have now pushed back evidence of sorghum in Sudan to at least 1500 BC (Beldados and Costantini 2011; Fuller 2014) (Fig. 1). Nevertheless, evidence for the dispersal of pearl millet and cowpea across Africa to the east (between Ghana and the Red Sea) is still lacking, as are assemblages with domesticated sorghum remains that predate their appearance in Indian contexts (by 1700 BC).

The five African crops arrived initially in Gujarat in western India during the Late Harappan period (2000–1700 BC) and gradually spread to other parts of the subcontinent (Fig. 1). Some of them had reached peninsular India by 1600–1500 BC, and all of them were reasonably widespread in India by ca. 1000 BC (Fuller and Boivin 2009). A single find of castor oil seed (Ricinus communis) from the Chalcolithic of the Ganges plains (dating to the later second millennium BC) could also represent an early translocation from Africa (Fuller 2003). The routes and agents of these crops’ eastward dispersal out of Africa remain enigmatic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
See we have enough evidence that Ancient Egypt was Black. However we have ZERO evidence that any Asian, American or European Civilizations were ever Black at anytime in history.

---

super pro-black Egypt dude

- and it turns out he's white,

must everybody on this site be an oddball of some sort?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
See we have enough evidence that Ancient Egypt was Black. However we have ZERO evidence that any Asian, American or European Civilizations were ever Black at anytime in history.

---

super pro-black Egypt dude

- and it turns out he's white,

must everybody on this site be an oddball of some sort?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


1) Yes, I am Black and I don't believe in race theory, because from a scientific point of view I know is an arbitrary reasoning. However, in daily activities, from a social point of view I know it plays part.

---

quote:

---

I'm not white or red or black
I'm brown
From the Boogie Down
-KRS One

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
See we have enough evidence that Ancient Egypt was Black. However we have ZERO evidence that any Asian, American or European Civilizations were ever Black at anytime in history.

---

super pro-black Egypt dude

- and it turns out he's white,

must everybody on this site be an oddball of some sort?

---

I study Egyptology and recognize AE as a Black Civilization. What does that have to do with being Pro-Black?. I already stated that I do not support Afrocentric beliefs or the Ethnocentric Racially-Chauvinistic theory that Blacks are the creators of all civilizations. You confuse someone recognizing Ancient Egypt as a Black civilization as being Pro-Black and that is very sad especially if you yourself are Black which I myself doubt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


1) Yes, I am Black and I don't believe in race theory, because from a scientific point of view I know is an arbitrary reasoning. However, in daily activities, from a social point of view I know it plays part.

---

We don't believe in the race theory but we conform to it's way of identifying us anyway because most people do, don't try tell me that isn't true

But one could still not conform to it

quote:

---

I'm not white or red or black
I'm brown
From the Boogie Down
-KRS One

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity? [Roll Eyes]

---

I have trouble distinguishing one European from another. I usually try to remember their shoes to get their names right. So basically they all do look the same.


I'm not sure what's going on with this guy
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
And I didn’t take you’re interaction with me as Hostile even before I mentioned my Race. I took it as us Debating like all other posters. I didn’t take it as you personally attacking me so I was confused by what you meant by “that stays the same”. But no hard feelings from me.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
No Sir I’m equally opposed to Eurocentric beliefs which is why I’m so opposed to the myth that Egypt was Eurasian. However I do believe Europeans have accomplished enough great fleets to not feel the need to dip every Civilization in Vanilla. I also want to point out that me recognizing Egypt was Black doesn’t mean anything special or unique since some of the most Racist Europeans in history have recognized Ancient Egypt as Black. All of those old White Masons with Red Fezzes know The AE Were Black even if they say otherwise. Slaveowners who promoted The Curse of Ham to enslave Blacks Were well aware that Ham was also the father of The Egyptians. So what I’m saying is don’t take a White persons acknowledgement of AE as Black as being unique because it is well known in most European schools of thought like Freemasonry. Whites have a Love/Hate relationship with AE. On one hand we want to demonize it and on the other hand we want to claim it as ours.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity? [Roll Eyes]

---

I have trouble distinguishing one European from another. I usually try to remember their shoes to get their names right. So bascially they all do look the same


https://images2.imgbox.com/83/e8/Iydv9QNh_o.png

I'm not sure what's going on with this guy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
That is not what I am asking you.

What I am asking you is: Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
And to Chime in Europeans have just as much Genetic Variation as Africans. Take Swedes and Greeks for example. Both Indigenous Europeans but look absolutely nothing alike.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
No Sir I’m equally opposed to Eurocentric beliefs which is why I’m so opposed to the myth that Egypt was Eurasian. However I do believe Europeans have accomplished enough great fleets to not feel the need to dip every Civilization in Vanilla. I also want to point out that me recognizing Egypt was Black doesn’t mean anything special or unique since some of the most Racist Europeans in history have recognized Ancient Egypt as Black. All of those old White Masons with Red Fezzes know The AE Were Black even if they say otherwise. Slaveowners who promoted The Curse of Ham to enslave Blacks Were well aware that Ham was also the father of The Egyptians. So what I’m saying is don’t take a White persons acknowledgement of AE as Black as being unique because it is well known in most European schools of thought like Freemasonry. Whites have a Love/Hate relationship with AE. On one hand we want to demonize it and on the other hand we want to claim it as ours.

---

The curse of Ham is not from White Europeans. It's from the Babylonian Talmud, written in the 4th century. The Catholic church took this as facts, being influenced by racist Rabbles in the 11th century. And the slaveowners during Trans Atlantic slavery were uni-conformed on this due to the King James Bible, so they removed parts of the Bible.

The reasons why racism exists is way more complicated. As I said, it's been created over a course of the last 400-500 years, when White Christians dismissed the presence of Black Christians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity? [Roll Eyes]

---

I have trouble distinguishing one European from another. I usually try to remember their shoes to get their names right. So bascially they all do look the same


https://images2.imgbox.com/83/e8/Iydv9QNh_o.png

I'm not sure what's going on with this guy

---

I'm not asking you what is going with that guy.

What I am asking you is: Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I just answered this. Yes Europeans look alike

And there are quite a few of them that run around thinking they're black. So you can't always go by what they say

The whole thing is crazy with this black and white stuff

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


And there are quite a few of them that run around thinking they're black. So you can't always go by what they say

The whole thing is crazy with this black and white stuff

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
1) It was you who started this, not me.

2) You didn't fully respond to my question. You explained that you look at shoelaces.

You left out the to answer this part: "Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity?".

I don't see why it's so complicated for you to answer this. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
1) It was you who started this, not me.

2) You didn't fully respond to my question. You explained that you look at shoelaces.

You left out the to answer this part: "Do all Europeans look alike and call themselves white, in a common European identity?".

I don't see why it's so complicated for you to answer this.

---

Again I answered it already but because I added bonus information you think I didn't answer it.

A) Do all Europeans look alike?

yes

B) Do all Europeans call themselves white, in a common European identity?".

no

___________________

can we move on?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

can we move on?

---

Didn't you start this?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
What the hell is going on??

Anyway here is a 22nd dynasty priest from ancient Waset (Thebes) near Luxor.



Here is a modern boy from Luxor.



The boy above is NOT Nubian but an ethnic Baladi Egyptian so enough of the Nubian b.s.!!
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
Ok I only brought up The Curse of Ham to indicate how the people who promoted it knew The Egyptians Were Black and didn’t feel that it contradicted their Racist beliefs. Understand tthat during that time period Europeans knew very little about Ancient Egypt and all of their knowledge of Egypt came from The Bible which demonized Egypt as an Evil place so it didn’t contradict their Racist views. It wasn’t until after The French invasion of Egypt that the western worlds love affair with Egypt began.

---

quote:

---

So shall the king of Assyria lead the captivity of Egypt and the exile of Cush, youths and old men, naked and barefoot, with bare buttocks, the shame of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SMirk92:
True but Tribalism amongst Europeans was just as bad if not worse than African Tribalism. The entire Nazi ideology was constructed upon the belief that other groups of Europeans were inferior such as Slavs,Jews ETC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
What the hell is going on??

Anyway here is a 22nd dynasty priest from ancient Waset (Thebes) near Luxor.



Here is a modern boy from Luxor.



The boy above is NOT Nubian but an ethnic Baladi Egyptian so enough of the Nubian b.s.!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
What the hell is going on??

Anyway here is a 22nd dynasty priest from ancient Waset (Thebes) near Luxor.



Here is a modern boy from Luxor.



The boy above is NOT Nubian but an ethnic Baladi Egyptian so enough of the Nubian b.s.!!

---

didn't you recently use this kid to resemble Tut?
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Tut cam from the same region as the boy and 22nd dynasty priest Nesperennub.



https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2004/07/mummy-inside
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

didn't you recently use this kid to resemble Tut?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

People assumed that everybody with darker skin in Egypt is Nubian. This theory has been promoted and hyped up for along time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:


The 14th dynasty was led partly by Southerners and they were trying to resist the influence and incursions of Asiatics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

But Doug says

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
The 14th dynasty was led partly by Southerners and they were trying to resist the influence and incursions of Asiatics.

---

I don't know what he is basing this on other than one king in the 14th dynasty named Nehesy.

Does this means it was Nehesy dynasty not a Caananite dynasty despite many of the other kings having Caanaite names?

---

quote:

---

The Hyksos were a Semitic people who gained a foothold in Egypt c. 1782 BCE at the city of Avaris in Lower Egypt, thus initiating the era known in Egyptian history as the Second Intermediate Period (c. 1782 - c. 1570 BCE).

[…]

No Egyptian, nor any other culture's, records indicate the Hyksos were slaves in Egypt, and there is absolutely no indication they were Hebrew, only that they spoke and wrote a Semitic language.The ethnic origins of the Hyksos are unknown as is their fate once they were driven from Egypt by Ahmose I of Thebes (c. 1570-1544 BCE) who initiated the era of the New Kingdom of Egypt (c. 1570-1069 BCE).

[…]

The ruling class of Xois founded the Xoite Dynasty (the 14th Dynasty of Egypt) during the time of the Hyksos and traded regularly with both them and Thebes.

---

quote:

---

The nobles of Xois had founded the 14th Dynasty of Egypt at the city in 1650 BCE but, with the rise in power of Thebes after Ahmose I defeated the Hyksos, the dynasty collapsed and Xois declined in prominence. The Egyptian historian Manetho (3rd century BCE) listed 76 Xoite kings. Seventy-two of the names confirmed by the famous Turin King List papyrus are thought to have been prepared under Pharaoh Ramesses II (1279-1213 BCE).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
wikipedia

Interesting it says "Hyksos" was first applied to Nubians in the Old Kingdom but in the middle kingdom to the Asiatic rulers of the 15th dynasty the more famed application of the term.

---

quote:

---

The linguistic data for the Sinai Peninsula in the Old Kingdom is relatively poor. Early Dynastic inscriptions referring to the Sinai mention the local Iwnt.yw nomads, probably to be identified with the settlers of EB II sites throughout the South Sinai, 363 but there is no contemporary local onomastic data from early inscriptions which can be definitively connected to any language. As the EB II sites share common material culture with settlers in Canaan, particularly Arad, 364 the likelihood is that they were Canaanite speakers. In the Middle Kingdom, Semites inscribed the socalled Proto-Sinaitic inscriptions at the Egyptian mines, a script comprised of Egyptian hieroglyphs recycled to write a foreign language, probably Canaanite. However, it is not entirely clear whether the authors of these texts were local inhabitants or itinerant Asiatics from SyriaPalestine who were in Egyptian employ. One inscription at Serabit el-Khadem mentions the brother of a HqA RTnw ‘ruler of the Levant’.

4.1.1 Eastern Desert Dwellers (NHs.y, MDA.y)

---

quote:

---

Further research and documentation has been carried out in the early 18th Dynasty tombs, the most famous of which belonged to Ahmose Son-of-Ibana, who fought against the Hyksos with King Ahmose. Much of our current work focuses on the tomb of Ahmose-Pennekhbet, of which the final decoration was commissioned by a descendant named ‘Amenhotep called Hapu’, a contemporary of Amenhotep III. Part of the tomb chapel collapsed when the ceiling was breached by a shaft from an adjacent tomb, and one of our tasks is to make a full epigraphic record of the scattered fragments. In modern times, the chapel has been used as a storeroom for finds from other tombs, and these too are currently being documented.

---

Fieldwork at Hagr Edfu and Elkab
https://enews.britishmuseum.org/pdf/BM_Egypt_Sudan_Newsletter1_2014.pdf
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 


This Nubian boy is a spiting image of King Tut.
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 



 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
Craniometric analysis of predynastic Naqada fossils found that they were closely related to other Afroasiatic-speaking populations inhabiting the Horn of Africa and the Maghreb, as well as to Bronze age and medieval period Nubians and specimens from ancient Jericho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqada_culture

^^^^^^^^ Craniometric evidence that todays Nubians are the people of Nubt(Naqada). Out of all the people listed in this study. The Nubians are the only people that still carry the name and still inhabit Egypt. This is why you must stop using the name Nubia as a Synonym for Kush. The real Nubia is Naqada(Nubt). Naqada(Nubt) is the real Nubia in disguise. The Nubians were always Egyptians and never apart of Kush.
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badarian_culture

The Badarian culture seems to have had multiple sources, of which the Western Desert was probably the most influential. Badari culture was likely not to have been solely restricted to the Badari region since related finds have been made farther to the south at Mahgar Dendera, Armant, Elkab and Nekhen (named Hierakonpolis by the Greeks), as well as to the east in the Wadi Hammamat.
Dental trait analysis of Badarian fossils found that they were closely related to other Afroasiatic-speaking populations inhabiting Northeast Africa and the Maghreb. Among the ancient populations, the Badarians were nearest to other ancient Egyptians (Naqada, Hierakonpolis, Abydos and Kharga in Upper Egypt; Hawara in Lower Egypt), and C-Group and Pharaonic era skeletons excavated in Lower Nubia, followed by the A-Group culture bearers of Lower Nubia, the Kerma and Kush populations in Upper Nubia, the Meroitic, X-Group and Christian period inhabitants of Lower Nubia, and the Kellis population in the Dakhla Oasis.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
No more off topic discussion here please.
This topic is supposed to be about a particular museum and the artifacts in it
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
Ok
 

---

Posted by SMirk92 (Member # 23178) on :
 
To stay on topic I want to remind everyone that these artifacts belong to The Dinka/Nuer people and have nothing to do with The Nubians. We can identify The 25th/Napatan Dynasty as Nuer due to The Nuer Gaar scarification marks on Taharqa’s forehead in the bust of him posed as Ausar with the Crook and Flail. The problem with this museum is it’s title. It should be called The Kushite museum because that is the true name of those historical people. The Nubians were Egyptians and had absolutely nothing to do with The 25th Dynasty. Taharqa and his family were Nuer not Nubians.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
You said that 50,000 times already, must you mess up my post when you have 8 others of your own on the same topic?

You reminding people is a ridiculous notion. You have an entire topic about Dinka/Nuer as well as mentioning in in many other threads
Please go to one of you own threads if you wish to continue trying to convince people of your opinion by endless repetition.
 

---

Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Just curious why there are no books talking about the prehistoric cultures of "France" 10,000 years ago? Why? Because "France" didn't exist 10,000 years ago and the populations of modern France are not the same as the ancient populations in the same areas. They don't speak the same languages and they don't practice the same culture.

---

There are books about ancient France, in the meaning that they talk about the prehistoric or ancient cultures in what today is called France.



In Sweden we have even a well known TV series about the first peoples in what is today Sweden called The First Swedes, even if those peoples where not exactly the same as those who live in Sweden today.


 

---