As the oldest picture of Jesus that didn't have an equine head.
I'm thinking I have seen this before. Someone did unto Jesus what was done unto Egypt.
So I searched for the culprit and again familiar.
"In preparation for their installation in the art gallery’s Dura-Europos exhibit, the paintings were restored based on the photographs and drawings from the excavation.
“Normally, we would not perform such restoration of an ancient wall painting, but we decided it was necessary,” Brody said. “We didn’t try to make them look like new, but using the photographic documentation of the excavation, we tried as much as possible to make them look as they appeared in 1932 when they were discovered.”
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Right... 'restoring' the image was necessary. Thanks for the info.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
But it was not restored, it was (is) distort.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: Yale Art Gallery painting might be oldest known image of the Virgin Mary 2016
Founded around 300 B.C., Dura-Europos (discovered in 1932, eastern Syria)
Following their discovery, conservators coated the wall paintings in polyvinyl acetate to prevent flaking. Considered a state-of-art technique at the time, the treatment proved to be unstable. In the 1970s, the paintings had deteriorated so much that they were transferred from their plaster backing to fiberglass.
In preparation for their installation in the art gallery’s Dura-Europos exhibit (2011), the paintings were restored based on the photographs and drawings from the excavation.
photo quality is not good, those violet tones don't look like proper color
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Did you create this Lioness? Tineye shows this as one of a kind and doesn't have the whitewashed Jesus until 2017.
Are you really saying that this
is poorer quality than this? Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Where are you getting 2011? The quote is "In preparation for their installation in the art gallery’s Dura-Europos exhibit, the paintings were restored based on the photographs and drawings from the excavation."
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes:
Are you really saying that this...
is poorer quality than this?
yes, the one with violet tones is blurrier, has less definition, the color off
^ this is the better one, lower portion, you can see more definition here
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: Where are you getting 2011? The quote is "In preparation for their installation in the art gallery’s Dura-Europos exhibit, the paintings were restored based on the photographs and drawings from the excavation."
Yale Art Gallery painting might be oldest known image of the Virgin Mary
In preparation for their installation in the art gallery’s Dura-Europos exhibit, the paintings were restored based on the photographs and drawings from the excavation.
Dura-Europos: Crossroads of Antiquity February 5, 2011–June 5, 2011 McMullen Museum of Art, Boston College, Chestnut Hill, Mass. September 22, 2011–January 8, 2012 Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, New York (NYU)
Featuring material from the Yale University Art Gallery’s collection
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
“At that time also there appeared a certain man of magic power … if it be meet to call him a man, [whose name is Jesus], whom [certain] Greeks call a son of [a] God, but his disciples [call] the true prophet who is supposed to have raised dead persons and to have cured all diseases. Both his nature and his form were human, for he was a man of simple appearance, mature age, black-skinned (melagchrous), short growth, three cubits tall, hunchbacked, prognathous (lit. ‘with a long face [macroprosopos]), a long nose, eyebrows meeting above the nose, that the spectators could take fright, with scanty [curly] hair, but having a line in the middle of the head after the fashion of the Nazaraeans, with an undeveloped beard. (*Halōsis, ii.174).”[4] ~Alfred C Haddon, History of Anthropology (London:Watts and Co.,1934) pg. 6.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Your sourcing sucks but you are right. This was hard to find.
These have to be the worst 'restorations' ever. Besides the cracks the old pictures look much better and the argument that it needed to be restored to look like black and white photos from the 30s is sick. This is the 21st century. You could have done a digital restoration.
We will never know the original intent because the church colored some faces and didn't color others.
But one thing is for sure this will influence the layman. To the multitude this is a white wash and I'm done caring about splaining. I don't care about the 1930s B&W photos. Its all about results.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Forty2Tribes: Besides the cracks the old pictures look much better
The later photo I sourced was from someone who was on location at the gallery and took a picture, post restoration
I could not find a good source for that pre-restoration one that has those violet tones. So we can't assume that that photo is accurate. For instance I could take a picture of a faded wall painting into photoshop and enhance the contrast. That version would have darker lines and more definition. It might look better than the unmanipulated original photo and you might not be able to tell. Similarly the color could be made more saturated. A touch of that might be believable and make the photo look better, but it would be a photo edit. Or a photo could have been published in a book and there would be a factor of the printing quality. You can look at different books of famous paintings and the photo of the painting in each book might be slightly different. You could only tell the accuracy by standing in front of the painting. There is also the settings on the camera that effects the color. And there is also the lighting conditions when the photo was taken, the lighting might have been a bit dim, or it could be well lit.
Date and location, ca 232 AD, Syria
Estimated year range Jesus died 26 A.D. – 36 A.D. Judea Samaria
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
see how the edge of that is bright blue? That can't be right
LINK scroll to bottom
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
^^ What point are you making? They both look undoctored compared to this.
They do look different but unless there were multiple edits I would assume its photography filters and favor the older image. Based on Tineye the colorful images are older and the bright blue is there because its a part of a slide. http://slideplayer.com/slide/1423817/ Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Guess which is older on tineye.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
On the above note the arches at the top of the picture. In the top photo the color is red. On the lower one golden brown. One of them is not the accurate color
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
The blackamoor coat of arms text says "flags and weapons depot".
Jesus Christ 300 A.d.Anoint your home, prayer room, business office or place of worship with the earliest artistic image of Christ as he teaches the Apostles "Last Supper" as portrayed in this fresco from the Catacombs of Domitilla, Rome in 300 A.D.
Both I and J were used interchangeably by scribes to express the sound of both the vowel and the consonant. It wasn’t until 1524 when Gian Giorgio Trissino, an Italian Renaissance grammarian known as the father of the letter J, made a clear distinction between the two sounds. Trissino’s contribution is important because once he distinguished the soft J sound, as in “jam” (probably a loan sound), he was able to identify the Greek “Iesus” a translation of the Hebrew “Yeshua,” as the Modern English “Jesus.” Thus the current phoneme for J was born. It always goes back to Jesus.
As a toddler my son used to sway and chant Ah bee dee, ah bee dee, ah bee dee Well a little later he got a dr named very similar Now seeing that Coat of Arms w/a similar sound took me back then.
About the pristine Hebrew aspirated 'G' as in gem.
Great, another version of that same catacomb piece of so far incomparable resolution that to me looks in between the two old standbys 42T snagged from the archive. I think both were issued by the catacomb keepers themselves though now maybe missing from the official site.
@ theLioness Canya prep a bust img with the versions same size and in vertical alignment please. Paint and Photos and can't sharpen the bottom 'accurate' though washed out image based on Ish's fineartamerica hi-res snag.
But Getty says this is the actual tomb wall and sell it for $500.
Last Supper. Wall painting of the Last Supper at a catacomb at Rome, Italy. (Photo by: Carl Simon/United Archives/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Christ among His Apostles, Catacomb of Domitilla, early fourth century.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
blackenized or whitenized?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
That Getty one is a joke
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Good horizontal lineup of main figure alone
Maybe you can replace the rightmost one with this hi-res Getty @
Once there you can further zoom detail using your browser
=-=-=
Why is Getty a joke? A priori prejudice or researched analysis? That's the one once on Domitilla official site. R u positing GettyImages lies and never sent a photographer to the place as credited?
The point for me isn't blackenized or whitenized but the mural for what it is and authenticity of two versions similar but differing in detail.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: That Getty one is a joke
.
Brushing aside both our assumptions here's the pedigree per GettyImages snapped in 1910 before any possible late 20th-21st century 'cleaning'/'restoration'.
DETAILS Restrictions: Contact your local office for all commercial or promotional uses. Credit: United Archives / Contributor Editorial #: 878261902 Collection: Universal Images Group Date created: 01 January, 1910 Licence type: Rights-managed Release info: Not released. More information Source: Universal Images Group Editorial Object name: 948_05_01740920 Max file size: 4961 x 2570 px (42.00 x 21.76 cm) - 300 dpi - 5 MB
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Those Carl Simon pics in the Getty are B&Ws hand colored. Resolution also terrible
I thought you were joking when you posted that
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Immediately declaring Simon a joke proves a priori bias on your part before critical examination. You will not consider all angles before eliminating and concluding. Simon has produced 100s of fine works and the art world isn't laughing.
Why is it Simon's photo a joke At worst it's a reproduction only because of colorization It is not a facsimile painting like Davis but an actual photo.
Anyway
OK so all his work is hand colored glass slides even where not credited so, you're saying? None of it was autochrome?
Are all the color images from then colorized B&Ws like in the Grolier Society's Lands and Peoples: the world in color, and are not 'authentic'? Ah, on ES always something new (to me anyways).
quote:Hand-colouring photographs
Several different processes and materials were used for hand-colouring, and it provided studio employment for many miniature painters who had initially felt threatened by the appearance of the new medium. Even after the emergence of the first practical colour processes, hand-colouring continued to be popular since it was often a cheaper and simpler alternative. Some of the results were very crude, but in the right, skilled hands, effects of great subtlety and beauty could be achieved.
Even at its very best, however, hand-colouring remained an arbitrary and, ultimately, unsatisfactory means of recording colour which could not reproduce the colours of nature exactly. What was required was a photographic process that could record colours directly in just the same way that it was already capable of capturing light and shade.
. Reduce then to B&W and pre-colorized original lines of detail remain or were they emphasized in prep of color?
Please. No bother tell me they add-ons too???
Have another catacomb art of some kinda meal at table
Egypt, men in front of a coffee house, image date: circa 1910. Carl Simon _______________________________
^ this is hand colored. It looks like a believable photo apart from the color which looks like it is only painted in transparently over some areas but not others. Both of the Christ pictures, might originate from a similar quality photo but the Getty versions don't look right. The contrast is too high, the color is too saturated, especially that intense yellow and the heavy black outlines and in that yellow background you don't see any wall texture. These things are to the extent it makes it look like a book illustration. I doubt the original photo looked like these do. They may be reproductions from a book rather than the Carl Simon original. If that is the case books can vary greatly in printing quality. You can look at a painting of a Van Gogh in one book and then in a cheaper version the same painting looks terrible and the color is off. Begin by looking at other pictures of the catacomb to get a sense of how the colors should look
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Yup
That's exactly the type 'world in color' photos in the Groliers.
Well one can only guess about the original B&W. I prefer not to invent things about it that though probable are not proven factual.
The world class United Archives Carl Simon photo collection on Europeana is no cheap quickie shop.
At present I rate "Simon's slide" a sub-facs repro.
Any background info on the fineartsamerica version?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
not sure if this is the same company, Ontario because I saw a Bee Hive pub, Chicago for the Fine Art at bottom of page, email for inquiries
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Thx 4 collaborating Where're everybody else
"Jesus Christ 300 A.D. is a painting by BeeHive Publishing which was uploaded on September 10th, 2012."
Beehive is a "sloppy scholar". No catalog data even hinted.
Doesn't mean the art itself is necessarily not authentic.
We'll get to the bottom of this soon enough.
This Simon-like one shows peeling in the arc above man 4th right from center. Need to track it down, it's not that Getty nor the Europeana Simon photograph.
BeeHive-like one has no hint of peeling there.
=-=-=
EDIT Replying to next post below
Agreed the "brushwork" looks much more authentic whether actual Domitilla photo or artists interpretation.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
This Fine Art version looks very authentic to me, a lot of texture, earthy muted color. It could be taken under dim lighting, not sure
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
this also looks legitimate, the big ugly rectangular hole has detail in it
couldn't find a higher resolution as for the figures though for a good enlargement
Bee Hive full version also has red arch, not golden brown >>
Is this how the painting would have looked 2,300 years ago? I don't think so it's condition looks very aged In the full scene the color looks accurate and the lighting seems to be coming from a relatively low position. The figures are fairly well lit but above the arch there is some painted ornamentation that doesn't show here
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: This Fine Art version looks very authentic to me, a lot of texture, earthy muted color. It could be taken under dim lighting, not sure
The depiction of these Hebrews was published by BeeHive Publishing.
quote:Christ Teaching the Apostles 300 A.D.
Due to the illegal status of the early Christian Church and the secret life followers were forced to live, there is little significant Christian art from before the 4th century. Fortunately there are some sprinkled examples found in the subterranean cemeteries (catacombs) of Domitilla, Rome which provide us visual evidence of early Christian beliefs and also Jesus' original image. Among these are frescoes, which are wall paintings done on fresh plaster.
One common image is the final communion meal shared between Jesus and his disciples. Scenes of the Last Supper, often disguised or intentionally ambiguous, were experienced as anticipation of the glorious banquet that awaited true believers in the next life. A beardless Christ in a toga, is characteristic of its time and place in a Roman world.
For further validation of this piece of artwork visitwww.domitilla.info BeeHive Publishing joined Fine Art America on September 7th, 2012.
quote: You are about to visit the best preserved section in one of the two most extensive catacombs in Rome:
The catacombs of the Eternal City offer one of the most complete and eloquent pictures of the Christian community in Imperial Rome, and of Catholicism in the city between the 2nd and 9th centuries. Until the 2nd century, in fact, the early Christians didn’t have their own cemeteries but were buried alongside the pagans in communal burial grounds outside the city along the main consular roads. The Apostle Peter was buried on the Vatican hill and St. Paul along the road to Ostia.
From the end of the 2nd century on, burial space ground was getting hard to come by and so small underground tombs were dug. These were often connected by short tunnels and were called hypogeums. It was a practice widely used by the Christians insofar as it allowed them to create several tombs in a confined space and at low cost. It also meant they could accommodate poorer members of the community either in private hypogeums or in Church-run cemeteries which had been donated by private citizens.
Such was the case with the catacombs you are visiting: we know from inscriptions that the land originally belonged to Flavia Domitilla. One such inscription bearing her name, can be seen on the righthand wall of the Basilica at the foot of the entrance stairway between the two sarcophagi. She was a noblewoman - the Emperor Vespasian was her grandfather and Domitian was her uncle. Her husband, Flavio Clemente, was a consul together with Domitian in 95 AD - but was condemned to death by the emperor that same year and Domitilla was exiled to the island of Ventotene.
They were accused of the crime of "atheism" - meaning they were probably both Christians. Their niece, whose name was also Flavia Domitilla was exiled to the island of Ponza for the same reason and by the 4th century her prison was a popular site of pilgrimage.
Private tombs multiplied in this area during the first half of the 3rd century AD and were linked by an extensive network of galleries. The complex of the catacombs of Domitilla began with seven early hypogeums which were carved out on two distinct levels and joined together during the first half of the 4th century. Galleries and tombs continued to be dug until the end of the 5th century with new stairways leading down into them from above.
[…]
CONCLUSION
The catacombs of Domitilla are extremely vast, about 17 kilometers long and extending to a depth of around 30 meters. Our visit dealt with just a portion of the second level with all its interesting artifacts. Although brief, our visit has given us a clear idea of how the early Christians dealt with death and with the burial of their deceased.
The word "cemetery" comes from Greek and means "place of rest" - especially for the early Christians as they await the Resurrection and their final salvation. This peaceful trust fills all the paintings and phrases carved upon the tombs that we find in the catacombs - and it’s the message that comes down to us through the centuries.
Jearld Frederick Moldenhauer – Photographer, Bookseller, Naturalist
(scroll down for image) ______________________________________
My guess is Beehive Publishing has this same photo of the tomb wall and they print it on canvas for anybody to buy We see the full scene with all the disciples I think the other one of just Jesus, the one also sold on Fine Art is clipped from the same photo and edited to remove some of the color to give it a more rustic mainly brown faded look
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Says BeeHive was done by an artist, expected a photographer.
How you know it's Jesus and his Disciples?
Please analyse scene people and objects in comparison to the Last Supper table and the characteristics of the participants as in the canonical Gospels.
=-=-=
Ruh-roh!
Nevermind, Ish tried n school me. I was in the frontdoor out the back playin hooky w/a school of fool fish and likin it.
quote: Scenes of the Last Supper, often disguised or intentionally ambiguous, were experienced as anticipation of the glorious banquet that awaited true believers in the next life. A beardless Christ in a toga, is characteristic of its time and place in a Roman world.
.
Betcha you'll never ever wever from now come No vember find this Jesus nowhere else
pass this buck all around the 'net
Full size zoomable link to this Carl Simon catacomb Last Supper or whatever the Latin says beyond agape/love.
I dare not post the Google translation of irene da calda agape miscem for fear of misinterpretation. It sure makes for some kind of disguising text.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: Scenes of the Last Supper, often disguised or intentionally ambiguous, were experienced as anticipation of the glorious banquet that awaited true believers in the next life. A beardless Christ in a toga, is characteristic of its time and place in a Roman world.
why were they disguised and how were they disguised?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Ya gotsa do da math
Beardless Judeans plus they on the young side no cup or nothing on table
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote: Scenes of the Last Supper, often disguised or intentionally ambiguous, were experienced as anticipation of the glorious banquet that awaited true believers in the next life. A beardless Christ in a toga, is characteristic of its time and place in a Roman world.
why were they disguised and how were they disguised?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what about the deleted chapter on the first supper?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
wiki: The conventional image of a fully bearded Jesus with long hair emerged around AD 300, but did not become established until the 6th century in Eastern Christianity, and much later in the West. It has always had the advantage of being easily recognizable, and distinguishing Jesus from other figures shown around him, which the use of a cruciform halo also achieves. Earlier images were much more varied.
wiki: The conventional image of a fully bearded Jesus with long hair emerged around AD 300, but did not become established until the 6th century in Eastern Christianity, and much later in the West. It has always had the advantage of being easily recognizable, and distinguishing Jesus from other figures shown around him, which the use of a cruciform halo also achieves. Earlier images were much more varied.
Guy on Mary's Son's left hand is wearing a Dracula collar? Judas Iscariot??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Ah dang! Lost the bet just like that to theLioness super data mining skill, yay!
Only recently have I discovered reverse image search
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Each finger on the hand when of the hand
a tonic for the troops
she's no 20th century she's so twenty twe enties she kno ow ows the right query to enter she's so mih mih mih mih MODERN!!!!
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
"Icons, that is images of holy persons, were an important part of the Byzantine Christian Church from the 3rd century CE onwards. Venerated in churches, public places, and private homes, they were often believed to have protective properties. The veneration of icons split the Church in the 8th and 9th century CE as two opposing camps developed - those for and those against their use in Christian worship - a situation which led to many icons being destroyed and the persecution of those who venerated them." https://www.ancient.eu/article/1161/byzantine-icons/
"Early Christian mosaics
Present-day insight into the crucial early phase of this part of the history of mosaic is limited because of the loss of nearly everything that was made in the field during the first half of the 4th century. Nevertheless, as indicated above, it seems certain that wall mosaics had come into use in Roman art well before Emperor Constantine’s edict of toleration of the Christian faith in 313 CE. Considered to be among the earliest Christian wall mosaics in Rome are those in the church of Santa Costanza built about 320–330 CE as a mausoleum for Constantine’s daughter. The content of the pictures is almost completely Dionysiac and pagan, but a series of small format scenes from the Old and New Testaments were included among the non-Christian pictorial elements of the decoration. Obviously an independent Christian pictorial program for buildings of Santa Costanza’s size and complexity had not yet been developed; and, probably in lieu of that, a Dionysiac program had been chosen because its many allusions to the symbolism of wine lent themselves to a Christian interpretation." britannica.com Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
It's clear the oldest depictions look like these flowing and later change into "something else", in the Byzantine Empire, as this group of religious believers of Hebrew origin are being accepted.
"Like many kingdoms in antiquity and leading into the Middle Ages, religious devotion was of great importance in nearly all aspects of life. Integrated into the Roman empire, the city-state of Byzantium maintained and even shared polytheistic beliefs into the 4th century AD until the rule of Emperor Constantine began in AD 306. Revolutionary in restructuring the Roman empire as a whole, he was responsible in part for the Edict of Milan in AD 313 that lifted persecution on Christian worshipers throughout the empire as well as moving the Roman capital out of Rome and into the city-state of Byzantium, renaming it Constantinople in AD 330. During this time, sentiment toward Christianity improved as reparations were paid back to those who lost due to past persecution. Some speculate that Constantine looked to reestablish and improve relations with Christianity, not as an act of good will or personal desire for social reform, but out of fear for what he believed the one true god" http://www.byzconf.org/religion-byzantine-empire/
Marvelous mosaic of Christ Pantocrator (“ruler over all”) from the Hagia Sophia in Instanbul. It is the central figure of the so called Deësis mosaic (Δέησις, "Entreaty") which probably dates from a relatively late 1261. It is considered by many to be the finest mosaic in Hagia Sophia.
The oldest known icon depicting Jesus Christ (6th century) in Saint Catherine's Monastery, Egypt.
In Christian iconography, Christ Pantocrator (Greek: Χριστὸς Παντοκράτωρ)[1] is a specific depiction of Christ. Pantocrator or Pantokrator, usually translated as "Almighty" or "all-powerful", is derived from one of many names of God in Judaism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pantocrator Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Mural painting from the catacomb of Commodilla. Bust of Christ. This is one of first bearded images of Christ. Earlier Christian art in Rome portrayed Jesus most often as the Good Shepherd, disguised as Orpheus, young, beardless and in a short tunic. During the 4th century Jesus was beginning to be depicted as a man of identifiably Jewish appearance, with a full beard and long hair, a style not usually worn by Romans. The symbols on either side are Alpha and Omega signifying "I am the beginning and the end".
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
Odd how the Van Der Bilt is using the same wikipedia source.
"Catacombs of Commodilla, on the Via Ostiensis, contain one of the earliest images of a bearded Christ. They originally held the relics of Saints Felix and Adauctus. The hypogeum leading to the catacombs was built in the fourth century. The catacombs were used for burials until the sixth century. Later, as happened to other Christian underground cemeteries, it was transformed into a place of worship of martyrdom: restoration of the basilica underground were made by several popes until the ninth century, a sign that the catacombs were still at that time a place of pilgrimage of devout Christians.
There were also found coins bearing the effigy of Pope Gregory IV (827-844) Pope Leo IV (847-855) finally gave the relics of the martyrs Felix and Adautto the wife of Emperor Lothair. Following the catacombs were abandoned and fell into oblivion. It was discovered in 1595 by archaeologist Antonio Bosio, but the first to identify it as that of Commodilla was in the nineteenth century, Giovanni Battista de Rossi. Restoration campaigns were performed at the beginning of the twentieth century and led to the complete excavation of the second level cemetery." spottinghistory.com
There are older catacombs, the catacomb of Priscilla, Rome, late 2nd century – 4th century C.E.
The Niche with the oldest image in existence of the Virgin Mary
Clearly the early art from the 2nd to 4th/5th century was different and something for some reason the art form changed. And from the Medieval "4th / 5th century" early Christian art the transition took place.
2-4 c. AC
Noah praying in the Ark, from a Roman catacomb
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what change are you referring to?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what change are you referring to?
Medieval art.
quote:"Conversion to Judaism was common in Rome in the first centuries BC and AD. Judaism gained many followers among all ranks of Roman Society [10-13]."
~Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin1,2,3 et al. 1 Department of Haematology and Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia 2 Department of Human Genetics, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel 3 Current Address: Blood Bank, Sheba Medical Center, Ramat-Gan 52621, Israel
quote:Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians who were driven by fear and hatred to emigrate from their home country when Cepheus was king. There are some who say that a motley collection of landless Assyrians occupied a part of Egypt, and then built cities of their own, inhabiting the lands of the Hebrews and the nearer parts of Syria. Others again find a famous ancestry for the Jews in the Solymi who are mentioned with respect in the epics of Homer: this tribe is supposed to have founded Jerusalem (4) and named it after themselves.
~Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55 - 117), The Histories by Cornelius Tacitus.
The Shepherd of Hermas, or the Good Shepherd, 3rd century, Catacombs of Rome.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [QB] Clearly the early art from the 2nd to 4th/5th century was different and something for some reason the art form changed.
If this art was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus, if there was an actual Jesus would he at the age of his death, 33 would he and his disciples have likely had beards or not ?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Just teasing Ish and tL How that be Shimshon and he got no 7 dreadlocks? HeHee
Do we know who was painting these images? They look rather Roman in style.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Wow thanks for the thumb to the video on it.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [QB] Clearly the early art from the 2nd to 4th/5th century was different and something for some reason the art form changed.
If this art was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus, if there was an actual Jesus would he at the age of his death, 33 would he and his disciples have likely had beards or not ?
"to administer the rite of baptism to," c. 1300, from Old French batisier "be baptized; baptize; give a name to" (11c.),from Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein "immerse, dip in water," also figuratively, "be over one's head" (in debt, etc.), "to be soaked (in wine);" in Christian use, "baptize;" from baptein "to dip, steep, dye, color," perhaps from PIE root *gwabh- (1) "to dip, sink." Christian baptism originally was a full immersion. Related: Baptized; baptizing." https://www.etymonline.com/word/baptize?ref=etymonline_crossreference
the Anointed," synonymous with and translating to Greek Hebrew mashiah (see messiah), a title given to Jesus of Nazareth; Old English crist (by 830, perhaps 675), from Latin Christus, from Greek khristos "the anointed," noun use of verbal adjective of khriein "to rub, anoint" (from PIE root *ghrei- "to rub”). https://www.etymonline.com/word/christ
Anyway,
“At that time also there appeared a certain man of magic power … if it be meet to call him a man, [whose name is Jesus], whom [certain] Greeks call a son of [a] God, but his disciples [call] the true prophet who is supposed to have raised dead persons and to have cured all diseases. Both his nature and his form were human, for he was a man of simple appearance, mature age, black-skinned (melagchrous), short growth, three cubits tall, hunchbacked, prognathous (lit. ‘with a long face [macroprosopos]), a long nose, eyebrows meeting above the nose, that the spectators could take fright, with scanty [curly] hair, but having a line in the middle of the head after the fashion of the Nazaraeans, with an undeveloped beard. (*Halōsis, ii.174).”[4] ~Alfred C Haddon, History of Anthropology (London:Watts and Co.,1934) pg. 6.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb]
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: [QB] Clearly the early art from the 2nd to 4th/5th century was different and something for some reason the art form changed.
If this art was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus, if there was an actual Jesus would he at the age of his death, 33 would he and his disciples have likely had beards or not ?
I am confused by your question.
What confuses you about the question? Is it that you don't think Jesus existed?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
At one point he didn't have that long hair (braids / dreads). If we have to belief the storyline.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Clearly the early art from the 2nd to 4th/5th century was different and something for some reason the art form changed.
If this art was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus, if there was an actual Jesus would he at the age of his death, 33 would he and his disciples have likely had beards or not ?
I am confused by your question.
This art form Rome we have been looking at was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus. In several of these scenes, they appear to be depicting the last supper, so Jesus was said to have been in his thirties then.
So if he came from a particular background is it likely in reality he and some of his disciples would have had beards?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: What confuses you about the question? Is it that you don't think Jesus existed?
Theological scholars say this person existed. However we do see an allegory once we translate the words.
I am talking about the filter that is used on the images you keep posting. That is why they look unclear (blurry). Whereas the images I posted is crisp clear, where you can see the fine details of the pixels.
Full-resolution preview of the 2550 x 3507 image.
Tutorial 1: Image Filtering
Whether we're aware of it or not, computer vision is everywhere in our daily lives. For one, filtered photos are ubiquitous in our social media feeds, news articles, magazines, books—everywhere! Turns out, if you think of images as functions mapping locations in images to pixel values, then filters are just systems that form a new, and preferably enhanced, image from a combination of the original image's pixel values.
This is the closest to the real there is, which can be validated by www.domitilla.info.
what in particular is on this page that you think validates?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Clearly the early art from the 2nd to 4th/5th century was different and something for some reason the art form changed.
If this art was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus, if there was an actual Jesus would he at the age of his death, 33 would he and his disciples have likely had beards or not ?
I am confused by your question.
This art form Rome we have been looking at was made 200 or more years after the death of Jesus. In several of these scenes, they appear to be depicting the last supper, so Jesus was said to have been in his thirties then.
So if he came from a particular background is it likely in reality he and some of his disciples would have had beards?
As I said to Brandon. I posted on a few books that have been published on this material. I haven't read these books myself, but I think these will answer those questions. Have you read these books?
SCHOLARS 20 FOR 20 #1 DR RICHARD S. HESS "PASSOVER, PROPHECIES, DEUT 28, EMAR, MARI"
this a commercial picture made by a company that sells prints. In my opinion this image has been put into a photo editor and has been desaturated of color, meaning a significant amount of color removed. I say this because this company also sells a version with the disciples and it has more color in it like other images of it does. I don't believe that the actual painting in the catacombs is virtually all browns like this with only slight hints of color. The photo that I posted from the catacomb's website does not show it looking as brown like this and lacking in other color
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
This is the closest to the real there is, which can be validated by www.domitilla.info.
what in particular is on this page that you think validates?
You need to mail the people from Bee Hive Publishing, Fine Arts. They told that domitilla.info can verify the authenticity of what they sell.
"The catacombs are dug out of tufa stone, a soft stone of volcanic origin on which the whole of Rome is built. Sometimes the galleries were obtained by reusing already existing passageways (water-conduits or quarries) or, as happened most often, they were freshly dug out of the tufa . The oldest tombs are the ones higher up: when there was no more space left, the grave diggers lowered the floor level or continued the gallery along even further, creating different storeys, one above the other, with connecting stairway" http://www.domitilla.info./idx.htm?var1=docs/en01.htm Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: this a commercial picture made by a company that sells prints. In my opinion this image has been put into a photo editor and has been desaturated of color, meaning a significant amount of color removed. I say this because this company also sells a version with the disciples and it has more color in it like other images of it does. I don't believe that the actual painting in the catacombs is virtually all browns like this with only slight hints of color. The photo that I posted from the catacomb's website does not show it looking as brown like this and lacking in other color
Your opinion is irrelevant babble anyway and anyhow. That is from a historical point of view, an artistic point of view, photographically point of view and a theologian point of view.
Desaturated of color doesn't make the image become clearer details, as we see in that image. It will emphases the colors to spark more depending how much desaturated of color is selected. The images you've posted could be desaturated of color as well. Fact is, those are blurry and not sharp in contrast. In other words, those lack pixels.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber:
This is the closest to the real there is, which can be validated by www.domitilla.info.
what in particular is on this page that you think validates?
You need to mail the people from Bee Hive Publishing, Fine Arts. They told that domitilla.info can verify the authenticity of what they sell.
"The catacombs are dug out of tufa stone, a soft stone of volcanic origin on which the whole of Rome is built. Sometimes the galleries were obtained by reusing already existing passageways (water-conduits or quarries) or, as happened most often, they were freshly dug out of the tufa . The oldest tombs are the ones higher up: when there was no more space left, the grave diggers lowered the floor level or continued the gallery along even further, creating different storeys, one above the other, with connecting stairway" http://www.domitilla.info./idx.htm?var1=docs/en01.htm
Stop the BS, you are merely quoting a description of an artifact that this company Beehive Publishing is using to sell an image. This does not mean that the website of the catacomb, domitilla.info is validating the image.
Just like a company could make an image of the Mona Lisa, it could be from a real photo an enhanced real photo or a completely redone image and then they could quote the Louvre's description of the original painting that does not mean the Louvre is endorsing the image they are selling as authentic.
We can only speculate here. True validation would have to begin with a photographer's name
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Your opinion is irrelevant babble anyway and anyhow.
No, you just have a habit of being condescending
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: Your opinion is irrelevant babble anyway and anyhow.
No, you just have a habit of being condescending
All you do is babble a lot.
Here is another enlarged images showing clear pixels and details of the art, even the stone is clear.
EARLY CHRISTIAN PAINTER, Italian (active 2nd century in Rome)
Last Supper
2nd century Fresco Catacombs of Domitilla, Rome
The Catacombs of Domitilla on the Via Appia Antica in Rome (named after Saint Domitilla) spread over 17 kilometres of underground caves.
They are the oldest of Rome's underground burial networks, and the only ones to still contain bones. They are also the best preserved and one of the most extensive of all the catacombs. Included in their passages are a 2nd-century fresco of the Last Supper and other valuable artifacts.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Stop the BS, you are merely quoting a description of an artifact that this company Beehive Publishing is using to sell an image. This does not mean that the website of the catacomb, domitilla.info is validating the image.
Just like a company could make an image of the Mona Lisa, it could be from a real photo an enhanced real photo or a completely redone image and then they could quote the Louvre's description of the original painting that does not mean the Louvre is endorsing the image they are selling as authentic.
We can only speculate here. True validation would have to begin with a photographer's name
I quoted the description because you ask dumb s*t. I don't work for that company, so how the hell am I supposed to answer that question? As I said, you need to mail the people from Bee Hive Publishing, Fine Arts. They told that domitilla.info can verify the authenticity of what they sell.
I posted on a few books that have been published on this material. I haven't read these books myself, but I think these will answer those questions. Have you read these books?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: I quoted the description because you ask dumb s*t. I don't work for that company, so how the hell am I supposed to answer that question?
No you were trying to trick people into thinking that the website of the catacomb validated a particular picture you posted when it didn't.
All you quoted was a commercial company selling a particular image using the description of the original artifact of the photo to sell the image. It does not validate the image they used as authentic. You seem to be having an emotional tantrum now
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: I quoted the description because you ask dumb s*t. I don't work for that company, so how the hell am I supposed to answer that question?
No you were trying to trick people into thinking that the website of the catacomb validated a particular picture you posted when it didn't.
All you quoted was a commercial company selling a particular image using the description of the original artifact of the photo to sell the image. It does not validate the image they used as authentic. You seem to be having an emotional tantrum now
You lack understanding of photography, that's the problem here. Bee Hive Publishing, Fine Arts made that statement, not me.
In other words, you need to contact Bee Hive Publishing, Fine Art or www.domitilla.info for further validation of this piece of artwork", not me. You are weird.
I also explained to you why on image is blurry will the those I posted are clear in pixels. The second reason why the images you show are small is because of the low pixel resolutions and filters they've used. The third issue is that you have an issue with Black/ dark skinned people. It's something deep rooted within you.
All you need to do is click to link and the image for it to blow up.
I posted on a few books that have been published on this material. I haven't read these books myself, but I think these will answer those questions. Have you read these books? HAVE YOU?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Both of these images are sold by Fine Art as prints on canvas and they are made by Beehive Publishing
I think they are probably the same photo, the top is just a finer resolution but some color removed in editing. So while it is at a finer resolution than the lower (which is not how they sell it, they sell it as a much bigger picture with some of the apostles on it) I believe it is the same original photo as the lower one except that in the upper one they removed color.
So one image has finer detail in terms of what has been uploaded to the internet and the other more accurate color
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
Both of these images are sold by Fine Art as prints on canvas and they are made by Beehive Publishing
I think they are probably the same photo, the top is just a finer resolution but some color removed in editing. So while it is at a finer resolution than the lower (which is not how they sell it, they sell it as a much bigger picture with some of the apostles on it) I believe it is the same original photo as the lower one except that in the upper one they removed color.
So one image has finer detail in terms of what has been uploaded to the internet and the other more accurate color [/QB]
I posted on a few books that have been published on this material. I haven't read these books myself, but I think these will answer those questions. Have you read these books? HAVE YOU?
I am not going to argue for days over a picture, while you lack basic understanding of art and photography. When you take a picture and stretch it the same pixels will remain and the image will be come unclear.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: IMBICILE I posted on a few books that have been published on this material. I haven't read these books myself, but I think these will answer those questions. Have you read these books? HAVE YOU?
what would reading a book have to do with assessing the quality of commercial prints of a painting? Have a beer
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Geber: IMBICILE I posted on a few books that have been published on this material. I haven't read these books myself, but I think these will answer those questions. Have you read these books? HAVE YOU?
what would reading a book have to do with assessing the quality of commercial prints of a painting? Have a beer
Perhaps because they elaborate on the images, you dumb dumb? Perhaps they are the experts on the topic, you dumb dumb?
Your assessment is pseudo at best, meanwhile you post these small pixilated images. And now you are skimming the internet for this image to make a point. lol
All you need to do is click the link and the image for it to blow up, to put a hole in your pseudo babbling theory.
Wake up? People are getting tired of your continues stupid babble. That's the annoying part.
You can't take the images in it's original format and stretch it, because the pixels will stretch, which result in a blurry image. Only from the raw material you have more pixels to blow up the image to the maximum resolution. Despite of this we still somewhat can see the details in the stone structure. But due to the stretch of pixels it became blurry.
you posted this link. I had already seen it and the way it enlarges What's your point? What is this link supposed prove?
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Geber:
All you need to do is click the link and the image for it to blow up, to put a hole in your pseudo babbling theory.
you posted this link. I had already seen it. What's your point?
You are not bright enough to get the point. It is what it is.
As I said, have a nice day.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Shimshon had dreadlocks. Shimshon didn't have braids.
He was a Nazir from birth.
A nazir may not use comb, scissors, or razor. I first heard this from Yard Rastas. Within a decade I acquired Yale's Maimonides Mishneh Torah where under the laws for nazarites comb, scissors, and razor are forbidden as part of a vow to God Himself.
Where did the founders of Rastafari learn Talmudic Judaism if not handed down from their Xaimaka Israelite forefathers?
Dreadlocks are a vow. Locs are a hairstyle stripped of sanctity, stolen from an African symbol of dedication to a deity.
On this South Africa release album Dan Nkosi warns about styling "Not to crucify them 'locks Why Because it's a vow between them and their God" in the song Reggae Prince
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Do we know who was painting these images? They look rather Roman in style.
Perhaps this can conform a historical connection.
quote: Egyptian Tomb in Israel
The discovery of an Egyptian-style tomb at Tel Halif in the Negev Desert suggests an Egyptian colonial presence in southern Israel ca. 3000 B.C. Most burials in the region are in caves or shaft tombs attributed to the Canaanites, but this one, built during the Early Bronze 1B period (3300-3000 B.C.), is typical of contemporary tombs in Egypt, according to excavators Thomas Levy of the University of California, San Diego, and David Alon of the Joe Alon Regional Research Center in Israel. A 30-foot-long passageway descends to the burial chamber, which is about 26 feet long, 16 feet wide, and nine and one-half feet high. Within the dome-shaped chamber is a plastered stone platform on which the skeleton of a woman was found. About 25 years old when she died, she was found in a fetal position facing east, characteristic of Egyptian burials.
That an Egyptian was buried at Tel Halif "gives us evidence of a full-blown Egyptian colony in Israel right after the crystallization of the first Egyptian state," says Levy. "Egyptians were known to have very profound and elaborate belief systems about the afterlife and what was required to get there. One of these requirements was to die and be properly entombed on Egyptian soil. I think it's very likely that this part of southern Israel was considered part of greater Egypt during this period."
Egyptian ceramics, seal impressions, and bread molds found at Tel Halif support an Egyptian occupation. Among these artifacts is a potsherd engraved with the serekh, or sign, of King Narmer, who is believed to have united Upper and Lower Egypt between 3050 and 3000 B.C.
Ancient Faces: Romano-Egyptian Mummy Portrait of a Bearded Man
Place: Egypt (Place created) Date: about 150 – 170 This image is housed at the Getty Villa. This is an educational center and museum dedicated to the study of the arts and cultures of ancient Greece, Rome, and Etruria. The collection has 44,000 Greek, Roman, and Etruscan antiquities dating from 6,500 BC to 400 AD.
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
There are variations of this.
This seems to be the oldest. Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
I lisened to this broadcast. One thing I an tell you is that most light skinned Berbers will not take it lightly to call them white Africans. There are some with coon mentality, but most who are light complexioned don't like to be called white.
To use the "Beetle Juice guy" as proposition is odd, since his face is somewhat disfigured.
That Nefertiti thing is still a slap in the face. Hoda Kotb was standing there, looking at some fake statue these people made to look like the Kelly Cobiella, who unveiled the fake statue.
Just to make sure what Brianna Seagraves is talking about here:
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Interesting, I like to think of them as yellow bones & rebounds who genetically African even if they dont fit the idea on what a African person should phenotypically be,outside the appropriate name they call themselves.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: Interesting, I like to think of them as yellow bones & rebounds who genetically African even if they dont fit the idea on what a African person should phenotypically be,outside the appropriate name they call themselves.
Some of them would be considered a "quadroon", who show narrowed or slimmed down features, but of the similar traits.
I decided to look into this topic on Youtube. And this is what this Catholic pastor, Fr. William Nicholas, explained about the book of revelation. And the vision at the Island of Patmos.
He speaks of feet gleamed like polished brass.
"The Book of Revelation begins with the First Vision of John, of the one from whom he receives the Revelation, Jesus Christ, of whom he gives a very vivid description."
While these are icons/idols of the Eastern Orthodox Church, the point must be made that these are historical pictures and that Jesus Christ is a Black man for the sake of Truth. This is also shown in his bodily description in Revelation.
quote: The Jordan Lead Codices, (or the Jordanian Codices), are a collection of codices allegedly found in a cave in Jordan and first publicized in March 2011. A number of scholars and a November 2012 regional BBC News investigation have pronounced them fakes. In December 2016, a radioactivity test performed at the University of Surrey's Ion Beam Centre confirmed the old age of the lead used, but not the inscriptions. As of 2017, both the Israeli Antiquities Authority (IAA) and the Jordanian archaeological department regard them as forgeries.
On 3 March 2011 The Jewish Chronicle ran an interview with a metallurgist named Robert Feather, who it stated was trying to authenticate a collection of 20 metal books which could be linked to the Kabbalah. These items were in the possession of an Israeli Bedouin farmer named Hassan Saeda, who claimed that they had been found by his great-grandfather in a cave a century ago. It added that a piece of leather from the find had already been carbon dated to 2,000 years ago. The article reported that the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) considered them inauthentic and worthless, saying the books are a "mixture of incompatible periods and styles without any connection or logic. Such forged motifs can be found in their thousands in the antiquities markets of Jordan and elsewhere in the Middle East". It added that Professor André Lemaire, an epigrapher and director of studies at the École pratique des hautes études, said the inscriptions he has seen make no sense and that it was "a question apparently of sophisticated fakes".[1]
On 22 March 2011 David Elkington issued a press release stating that a hoard of ancient books made of lead and copper, together with other artefacts, probably dating from the 1st century AD, had been found in Jordan, and that they might predate the writings of St. Paul and that "leading academics" believed they might be as important as the Dead Sea Scrolls.[2] Elkington also stated that the items were discovered 5 years previously in a cave by a Jordanian Bedouin and smuggled into Israel, where they were at risk of sale on the black market or of destruction.[2] Media outlets quickly picked up the story.
Elkington stated that the find consisted of "up to 70 ring-bound books (codices) made of lead and copper. Many of them are sealed on all sides. Scrolls, tablets and other artefacts, including an incense bowl, were also found at the same site. Some of the lead pages are written in a form of archaic Hebrew script with ancient messianic symbols. Some of the writing appears to be in a form of code." In the press release he stated that his team included biblical scholars Margaret Barker and Philip R. Davies.[2]
You have to understand that "Jesus Christ" is a symbol of the life force, the sun/solar cycle/life/death/regeneration, the word/logos. None of these are "human" characteristics as opposed to characteristics of nature and the physical universe. And as such ancient cultures separated these as attributes of divine origin in their cosmologies. However, later groups like the Greeks and Romans syncretized many of these ideas into all encompassing entities such as Serapis, which took on the appearance of the idealized man. And from that some would say came the prototype of Jesus. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter the outward appearance of the human used to represent it, as opposed to understanding the symbol it represents. And this is where the early Christian church had so many problems with priests from older cultures who were against the idea of a "flesh and blood" Jesus Christ as it removed the underlying meaning behind the figure. But either way, there are various images of Christ from the ancient and modern world where some are black, some are Asian and some are European, because the figure is supposed to be an archetype. That said given the historical description of Jesus and where he lived it makes sense that his skin complexion could have been much darker.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You have to understand that "Jesus Christ" is a symbol of the life force, the sun/solar cycle/life/death/regeneration, the word/logos.
that would have to be supported by quotes from the New Testament.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
The "Messiah" is a foreshadowed and prophesied savior archetype in the Tanakh/Old Testament.
quote:Daniel 7:9 ... As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool ; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire
this imagery is repeated in the last book of the New Testament
quote:Revelation 1:14, NIV: "The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire."
The Messiah "Shiloh" is prophesied to come from the tribe of Judah
quote:Jacob Blesses His Sons Judah is a young lion—my son, you return from the prey. Like a lion he crouches and lies down; like a lioness, who dares to rouse him? The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and the allegiance of the nations is his.
quote:Genesis 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine and his teeth white with milk/QUOTE]
Revelation 1:15 [QUOTE]His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
The Messiah had to be of the Tribe of Judah a Son of David which is why his lineage is given in Matthew...
And there you will see that there are 3 or 4 black women in his lineage..
Whether Jesus was a real person is not the issue, whether he is a mythological archetype of a solar god is not the issue...
The issue is can we read the text and understand what the foreshadowing and predictions of the messiah means and what was expected? If I read an Agatha Christie Novel what was my comprehension and can I recount the plot? What was the description of the butler? Ignore the Italian/French/English depictions of Jesus they have nothing to do with the plot... it was a recasting... kinda like Warner Bros recasting Superman as Black...
RED EYE & WHITE TEETH...
now ya'll know this means black african people..
And not least... the image of Pop Mechanics mock up of Jesus does have resemblance to a Bantu Zulu King
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
To this day, Jewish people do not see Jesus Christ as the prophesied messiah. And as such he was killed in the Bible.
But again, I said that as an archetype "the Christ" could be anybody and therefore you will find various depictions in the ancient world. So I am not ruling out the idea of a brown skinned Jesus Christ either in prophecy or literally in the flesh.
quote: Jesus is the central figure of Christianity, believed by Christians to be the messiah, the son of God and the second person in the Trinity.
But what do Jews believe about Jesus?
For some Jews, the name alone is nearly synonymous with pogroms and Crusades, charges of deicide and centuries of Christian anti-Semitism. Other Jews, recently, have come to regard him as a Jewish teacher. This does not mean, however, that they believe, as Christians do, that he was raised from the dead or was the messiah.
Just one example of the solar symbolism is the Chi Rho cross:
quote: In a memoir of the Roman emperor that Eusebius wrote after Constantine's death (On the Life of Constantine, circa 337–339), a miraculous appearance is said to have come in Gaul long before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. In this later version, the Roman emperor had been pondering the misfortunes that befell commanders who invoked the help of many different gods, and decided to seek divine aid in the forthcoming battle from the One God. At noon, Constantine saw a cross of light imposed over the sun. Attached to it, in Greek characters, was the saying "Τούτῳ Νίκα!" (“In this sign you will conquer!”). Not only Constantine, but the whole army saw the miracle. That night, Christ appeared to the Roman emperor in a dream and told him to make a replica of the sign he had seen in the sky, which would be a sure defence in battle.
Because of this origin Christianity as the official religion of Rome, images of Christ Panocrator with a Halo and the Chi Rho Cross were common in the early Church and Eastern Church. Quite often these images were found in the tops of domes within Churches....
Much of this solar symbolism is inherited from Apollo of Rome and the halo from the Nile Valley traditions of the sun disk over or behind a deities head.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Whatever can be said about the Christian Messiah should never be confused for the Jewish Messiah. One is Greek the other is Hebrew.
Jews don't see "Jesus Christ" or any other Jesus as any kind of mashiahh. The are hundreds of messiahs. Cyrus was a messiah. Messiah just means anointed one. Nor do Jews recognize Greek writings as applicable to or furtherance of the concepts of Hebrews whose canonical compositions are in what Israels spoke, the African language family tongues Hebrew and Aramaic.
Y*sha`yahu (Isaiah) 45:1
כֹּה־אָמַ֣ר ___ So says יְהוָה֮ _____ the Eternal לִמְשִׁיחוֹ֮ ___ to His messiah לְכ֣וֹרֶשׁ ____ to Cyrus מָשִׁיחַ (n-m) heb
anointed, anointed one
of the Messiah, Messianic prince
of the king of Israel
of the high priest of Israel
of Cyrus
of the patriarchs as anointed kings
Jews and Judaism are distinct from Christians and Christianity. Jews are a people with a national historic homeland. Christians are a religious group neither an ethnicity nor a nation or nationality.
Judaism and the Hebrew scriptures stand alone and complete within and by themselves. Christianity needs the Hebrew scriptures and have not accurately quoted references to Hebrew scripture.
Most abominable in Hebrew theology is the Eternal impregnating a female. The mythological Great Flood is considered punishment for angelic beings having sex with women and girls to produce "demi-gods" whom the Eternal wiped out for interspecies sex, a dire happenstance incurring a death penalty for animal and human if convicted. Interspecies breeding prohibition applies animal-animal, plant- plant, and animal-plant, i.e., producing hybrids, or trans-seeding fields/gardens, or intertwining wool and linen (kil'ayim).
Islam (creation of a Semitic speaking people known in Hebrew scripture as 'cousins' to Israels and Edoms) makes the supreme being concept plain and clear: He neither begets nor is begotten. Indo-European speakers are quite familiar with gods knocking up even married women. Christianity compromises with that, having a mangod emerge from a betrothed woman.
HaMashiahh is profusely explained in Maimon's Mishneh Torah in the Book of Kings and their Wars for any who really want to learn how Jews view and what is expected from The Messiah in Jewish eschatology.
Just as abominable is drinking blood. Dietary law prohibits consumption of blood to the point of salting and soaking red meat to try and remove the last vestiges of blood. Need I add that human is not a kasher species to serve on the supper table and the gran majority of humanity finds cannibalism repulsive.
The Solar Mythos hero in Jewish scripture is Shimshon (Samson), just look up the name's meaning then this
as good an introduction to Shimshon as a solar zodiac myth though not where I first learned about it. Probably Dr Ben.
=-=-=
Ausir/Ausar/Osiris was slain and resurrected to become the Judge of the dead in the Tuat where the Solar Barge moves in the night hours. This god while dead, hacked to pieces, and penectomied is made to sire a son Hor/Heru/Horus from bird form Auset/Isis his divine sister-wife's immaculate conception. Auset is the first Madonna, afaik. Egyptian solar mythos seems a basis for parts of Sun mythology detectable in Christianity.
Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: You have to understand that "Jesus Christ" is a symbol of the life force, the sun/solar cycle/life/death/regeneration, the word/logos. None of these are "human" characteristics as opposed to characteristics of nature and the physical universe. And as such ancient cultures separated these as attributes of divine origin in their cosmologies. However, later groups like the Greeks and Romans syncretized many of these ideas into all encompassing entities such as Serapis, which took on the appearance of the idealized man. And from that some would say came the prototype of Jesus. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter the outward appearance of the human used to represent it, as opposed to understanding the symbol it represents. And this is where the early Christian church had so many problems with priests from older cultures who were against the idea of a "flesh and blood" Jesus Christ as it removed the underlying meaning behind the figure. But either way, there are various images of Christ from the ancient and modern world where some are black, some are Asian and some are European, because the figure is supposed to be an archetype. That said given the historical description of Jesus and where he lived it makes sense that his skin complexion could have been much darker.
Throughout the years I have seen and read many explanations, and this is just one of them.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
