this bottom photo is peculiar. It's some kind of composite
On the back wall 1 Asiatic followed by 5 Nubians
Now go back to the left most Nubian, he's Nubian 1 Similar to him is Nubian 2 Nubian 3 is just head and shoulders ______________
Now look at that last two on the right Nubian "4 and 5"
that is not really a 4 and 5 It's a repetition of 2 and 3
I think they did that to make the photo look nicer for sale that's the pattern, glyphs repeat also, some photo editing going on to hide the cut
actual, not 5 Nubians
In the title look at "r" in "Merenptah". Now follow with your eye up from there. That is an Egyptian on the side wall, you can see his white collar. Next to him the first headband Asiatic. There are two more on the side, for a total of 3 Asiatic on the side and the 4th is around the corner before the first Nubian The back wall is damaged on the right part of it so the 4th Nubian is missing as well as the Libyans
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ Aren't there half a dozen threads on this topic already, with many of them created by you??! LOL
You might as well bump any one of those up instead of creating more band space.
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
I made "Tomb of Merenptah", primary now, so it's also open to other images from that tomb I wanted to put This one on the map because few people on the interwebs have seen that Lepsius' Gates illustration but also: this came about because I was reading the Champollion quote about this. He might not specify which Theban tomb with the BG scene but he talks about, could be Merenptah or Seti but he talks about 12 figures of 4 types of 3 figures each. That seems to be a mistake due to damage he thought it was sets of 3 instead totaling 16 (originally at least)
Les hommes guidés par le Pasteur des peuples, Hôrus, sont figurés au nombre de douze, mais appartenant à quatre familles bien distinctes.
[The men guided by the Shepherd of the people, Horus, are shown as twelve in number, but belonging to four very distinct families.]
and like Breasted and Budge after him he remarks on the Nubians:
Il ne peut y avoir aucune incertitude sur la race des trois qui viennent après, ce sont des nègres; ils sont désignés sous le nom général de NAHASI.
["There can be no uncertainty about the race of the three who come next), they are negroes; they are referred to under the general name NAHASI."]
(I mention this due the use of the word "nègres" in the French, the term coming up about your other thread on skull types as "negroes" etc)
Anyway I was checking it out and I saw not 3 or 4 but 5 Nubians! in that Shutterstock image and that was a surprise. It took me a while to figure out it is a manipulated photo. That's another reason for this thread. If anybody ever comes across that weird pic it's easy to find here with an explanation
Merneptah (flourished late 13th century BCE) was a king of Egypt (c. 1213–03 BCE) of the 19th dynasty (c. 1292–c. 1191) who successfully defended Egypt against a serious invasion from Libya.
The 13th son of his long-lived father, Ramses II, Merneptah was nearing 60 years of age at his accession about 1213. Toward the end of his father’s reign, Egypt’s military preparedness had deteriorated. Early in Merneptah’s reign, his troops had to suppress a revolt in Palestine by the cities of Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yenoam. (The action is shown by battle reliefs at Karnak previously ascribed to Ramses II.) Merneptah’s greatest challenge, however, came from the west. Libyans had penetrated the buffer territory west of the delta oases and were encroaching on Egyptian lands. About 1209 Merneptah learned that some Sea Peoples, wanderers who had been displaced from Asia Minor and the Aegean lands and were roving the Middle East, had joined and armed the Libyans and with them were conspiring to attack Memphis and Heliopolis, the great administrative and religious centers near the delta’s apex.
After receiving assurances in a dream from Ptah, god of endangered Memphis, the aged king marshaled his forces and prepared to meet the enemy. The site of the battle is disputed, but a place somewhere west of the apex of the delta is suggested by references in the four accounts of the war. At dawn of a spring day in 1209, the Libyans and their allies appeared, evidently expecting a pitched battle. Merneptah, however, unleashed his archers against them, while his infantry and chariotry held fast. For six hours the archers massacred the foe, after which the latter’s chief fled, and the Egyptian chariotry and infantry routed the demoralized enemy. It was a great victory in which the Libyans and Sea Peoples lost nearly 9,400 soldiers. Egypt was relieved, and Merneptah ordered the carving of four great commemorative texts. One of these, the famous “Israel Stela,” refers to the suppression of the revolt in Palestine. It contains the earliest-known reference to Israel, which Merneptah counted among the peoples that he defeated. Hebrew scholars suggest that the circumstances agree approximately with the period noted in biblical books from late Exodus to Judges. A fragmentary stela from the Sudan also suggests that the king quelled a rebellion in Lower Nubia, probably after his Palestinian exploits.
He probably died about 1203. He left few monuments, but in his conduct of Egypt’s defense and diplomacy he was at least the equal of his father.
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ Yes unfortunately Merenptah does get overshadowed by his father Ramesse II. His victory over the Libyan-Sea People Alliance was crucial to the preservation of native Egyptian rule at least in the Delta area.
I'm surprised you didn't catch the photo editing of that image shack source earlier. Photos from The Book of Gates scenes from his tomb has been viewed many times not to mention the obvious duplication.
What I find funny about the Breasted translation of Nahasy to "Negro" is the obvious fact that the features of the Nubians (Kushites) is obviously not negroid at all.
^ Not only is does he have orthognathous profile and thin lips but his nose is slightly longer than the Asiatic.
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I'm surprised you didn't catch the photo editing of that image shack source earlier. Photos from The Book of Gates scenes from his tomb has been viewed many times not to mention the obvious duplication.
I think that shutterstock one with 5 Nubians has never been posted on Egyptsearch ( maybe once at best) It is not easy to notice the photo editing unless you know there are supposed to be 4 figures not 5. And it it takes further comparison to other photos to realize that on the actual wall there are only 3 of them left, the 4th one's paint has entirely left the wall, the figure is missing. So the edit has repeated the last two figures
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
What I find funny about the Breasted translation of Nahasy to "Negro" is the obvious fact that the features of the Nubians (Kushites) is obviously not negroid at all.
^ Not only is does he have orthognathous profile and thin lips but his nose is slightly longer than the Asiatic. [/QB]
.
.
from the various tombs, not sure how true to life the features are. Some of the New Kingdom tombs and temples tend to depict Kushites looking broad featured although not the Merpentan. The ones at Seti I are quite damaged currently. The above, bottom left, is the only one retaining it's color. There are two other figures but only in relief, the color is completely off of them, and the facial features in no better shape than this one
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ But that's the thing, are those 'broad featured' Africans even Kushites or African groups under Kushite hegemony? Scholars from the time of Samuel Morton have been noticing for a long time a difference in physiognomy between Nubians proper like Kushites and other Africans to their south. Recall this thread: Kushites were NOT the same as Nubians
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ But that's the thing, are those 'broad featured' Africans even Kushites or African groups under Kushite hegemony? Scholars from the time of Samuel Morton have been noticing for a long time a difference in physiognomy between Nubians proper like Kushites and other Africans to their south. Recall this thread: Kushites were NOT the same as Nubians
In determining this we have to go the the Egyptian language
thus kꜣš (Kushites)
wiki:
quote: The native name of the Kingdom was recorded in Egyptian as kꜣš, likely pronounced IPA: [kuɫuʃ] or IPA: [kuʔuʃ] in Middle Egyptian, when the term was first used for Nubia, based on the New Kingdom-era Akkadian transliteration of the genitive kūsi.[13][14][15]
It is also an ethnic term for the native population who initiated the kingdom of Kush. The term is also displayed in the names of Kushite persons,[16] such as King Kashta (a transcription of kꜣš-tꜣ "(one from) the land of Kush"). Geographically, Kush referred to the region south of the first cataract in general. Kush also was the home of the rulers of the 25th Dynasty.[17]
Then going to the word Nehesy and how it appears in texts rather than the less precise romanization "Nubian"
wiki:
quote: Throughout history various parts of Nubia were known by different names, including Ancient Egyptian: tꜣ stj "Land of the Bow", tꜣ nḥsj, jꜣm "Kerma", jrṯt, sṯjw, wꜣwꜣt, Meroitic: akin(e) "Lower "Nubia", and Greek Aethiopia.[21] The origin of the names Nubia and Nubian are contested. Based on cultural traits, some scholars believe Nubia is derived from the Ancient Egyptian: nbw "gold",[22] although there is no such usage of the term as an ethnonym or toponym that can be found in known Egyptian texts; the Egyptians referred to people from this area as the nḥsj.w. The Roman Empire used the term "Nubia" to describe the area of Upper Egypt and northern Sudan
It is mu understanding that in the New Kingdom we see kushites depicted in captive foreigners scenes but that would have to be verified as appearing in the associated texts, kꜣš (but I don;t see text with the word much discussed although I have not gone out of my way to look for it)
I think I have been seeing these figures at the book of gates described as nḥsj.w. )However you want to spell it Nhsy, nehesi, nehesy, nahesi, etc)
My understanding that the kushites are a type of nehesy (nation of the southern regions) from a certain time period, the Kingdom of Kush, kꜣš
but I'm not sure about it
and then there's Meroe
Maybe Solange Ashby has this all sorted out?
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
^ Yes, Nhsy is not an ethnic label but was likely a geographic one since, Tukuler has cited several Egyptian texts listing different ethnicities with Nhsy used as suffix i.e. Wawati-Nhsy, Medja-Nhsy, Kshly-Nhsy etc.
This Nhsy is NOT ethnic let alone racial. By the way, the root word nhs is a horned guinea fowl. So nobody knows what the exact meaning of the word is. The same way the Egyptians or rather Shemawy (Upper Egyptians) called peoples of the Eastern Delta Rkhty (lapwing birds).
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
I didn't say anything about ethnic or racial labels Kushites were a polity in the Nhsy region
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