posted
This post pertains to a reaction video where Kuelmika and King’s monologue both react to Metatron’s response Link.
At 2:14:40 of the video One of Metatron’s pieces of evidence for a multi-ethnic (well more specifically multi racial) Egypt is this picture of what he states to be a tanned mediterranean woman.
King Mono’s counter argument to this is that the Egyptians wouldn’t overlap two people with the same skin tone (stated at 2:15:52). He also mentions that there’s a possibility that the “tanned woman” may have just been yellow boned.
Personally, while I am aware that Egyptian art often follows strict and specific conventions, and that yellow boned Africans do exist, I was wondering if there was any validity to Metaron’s claims. While, I don’t know the exact source, the tomb highlighted here seems to be during/post the 18th dynasty, so I was wondering if there any evidence of southern European/ White asiatic presence in Egypt in this time period?
Also, does anyone know which tomb is highlighted here? I would like to see the full mural.
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Are all Caucasians & Orientals the same complexion? Does Metatron know about the San & Khoi-Khoi folks of Namibia,Botswana, & South Africa with yellowish to yellowish brown complexions? Some Nigerians of the Igbo group are light brown while some Oromo & Amhara folks of Ethiopia light brown to yellowish brown also.Are all Europeans white toned as the clouds? Some Orientals are more pale toned than certain Europeans.
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^ One reason why I don't like to get involved with these social media bickerings is that they are so elementary when there is so much info out there that there shouldn't be any arguments about it.
Metatron is suppose to be a historical experts of some sorts. I don't know his credentials if he has a masters or doctorate but he is I think a school teacher and as an Italian he is very knowledgeable about his Italian/Roman heritage being fluent in Latin as well. This is why I find it somewhat disingenuous he makes these claims of Egypt being "multiracial" i.e. (a cop-out for not completely black) when the Romans like Greeks before them called the Egyptian people maure or atri (synonyms for black) NOT olive or tanned. LOL The Greeks called them melanchroi meaning black-skinned. All of this was discussed here: Colorlines in Classical North Africa
Of course Metatron's claim has truth to it but the devil is in the details. Egypt has experienced surges of immigration from Asia in different periods of its history. We know there was large scale immigration from at least the Middle Kingdom leading to Hyksos rule and most of these populations settled in the Delta but to then claim this makes the entire country multi-ethnic is not only disingenuous but hypocritical because we know for example that ancient Greece as a civilization or culture IS the product of Asiatic immigrants and these original founders of Helladic Culture that preceded the Greek speaking Achaeans were not Indo-European speakers but peoples with ties to Anatolia. Yet ALL histories call ancient Greek civilization 'European' and most people assume its inhabitants to be 'white' and not multi-racial despite the fact that since the Neolithic some of these Asiatics show African affinities. Yet when it comes to Egypt whose culture developed solely in Africa amongst speakers of African languages and people who biologically exhibit African traits including melanated skin, somehow are just 'multi-racial'.
I think Metatron's problem is that he does not want to give up the Romantic Western image of Egyptians as the off-white non-black (Asiatic?) people he has always imagined them to be.
Posts: 26740 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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(note this is Userhat in Tomb TT 51 There is another entirely different person named Userhat of a nearby Theban tomb of the same period with it's own paintings, Tomb TT 56
Also note below some people of the same color overlapping. They don't always have an alternating different color (see especially, the painting detail on the lower right, not just the women sitting but also then men standing, it's two men not one, one in front of the other and both the same color -the separation is instead shown by the outline)
People see one artist using alternating color, then they speculate on the reason for it, then they act like it is a rule that can be applied to all other art. We now have more access than ever before to images of Egyptian art. I have seen a huge amount of it and I am always finding variations and exceptions to various speculation that there are certain "rules" that all the artists followed. So be very cautious about people who think they know about "rules" and also realize when somebody says "may have been" or "probably" or they mention one theory but then right after mention and entirely different theory or theories but don't point it out as contradictory, they are speculation. If you want to prove something was a rule you need a text that says it was and they haven't found any. Apart from that you would need to observe what a appeared to be a rule or convention very consistently, with few not many exceptions.
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Unless the color is damaged in some way it looks like the woman on the left is lighter than the one on the right
On the bottom left we see overlapping men with color variations (easiest to notice in the legs)
Yet the men underneath in the same scene are also overlapping but are the same color
This is the same tomb of the video in the OP
color is not race
forget about about overlapping for a minute, obviously two people of what people perceive to be of two different races can be the same color
With humans we are dealing with various shades of brown, including "beige" which is a very light brown, with slight hint of yellowish
and throw the term "olive" away. Olives come in several different colors anyway from black to red to brown so it's an imprecise term. What is distinctive about them? Some of them may be green , others greenish brown, that is outside of human color, a good reason not to use the term "olive" for people. I find this term "olive" is used to imply that certain darker Southern Europeans are not some shade of brown like the rest of the world. I don't know if Melotron realizes this because people don't often question the word
Kuelmika says Ancient Egyptians could not have been this color because they would burn to easily, he shows an modern Egyptian man of this color in the video
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The Roman Empire would be a good analogy. It would have had a diverse and multicultural population at its height, yet nobody denies that ethnic Latins from Italy (with some cultural influences from the Etruscans) laid the foundation for what we think of as Roman civilization. Can it not be said that pharaonic Egypt was a fundamentally African civilization that accrued a diverse population over time?
Historians might attempt to theorize but no one knows why the figures are different in color
You may see goddesses in the tombs painted yellow but that is believed to represent gold and they did not have gold paint
But above are the wives of Egyptian officials, not goddesses.
So people attempt various theories, such as these:
1. Men being outside and getting a tan was associated with masculinity, they were out doing physical things. Women not as much
2. The man does not have a tan, that is his natural color. If they stayed inside all the time they would not be color of the women here. This particular women might have Libyan or Syrian ancestry that's why they were lighter
3. The man does not have a tan, that is his natural color. If they stayed inside all the time they would not be color of the women here. This particular women is simply one of the diverse types of native Egyptians
4. Women were painted yellow for some unknown symbolic reason. In real life they were the same brown color as their husbands
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posted
^ Yes we know Egyptian women were painted in a yellow hue unlike the much darker hue of the men indicating that such representations were symbolic than realistic. This is a basic fact of Egyptology that most laypeople are aware of so I think someone more educated like Metatron knows this too which is another reason why I find his claim disingenuous.
Note ancient Greeks and Romans also portrayed their women folk as lighter also but such women are depicted in pale complexions unlike the Egyptian yellow.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Egyptian women were painted in a yellow hue unlike the much darker hue of the men indicating that such representations were symbolic than realistic. This is a basic fact of Egyptology that most laypeople are aware
Symbolic of what??
It's not a basic fact.
Its a theory and cannot be proven
Also note I just showed a sculpture of Sennefer and Meryt of the 18th dynasty, depicting her much lighter and yellowish yet Ankhesenamun on Tutankhamun's throne is the same reddish brown he is and Hatshepsut is also depicted the same reddish brown. Nefertiti back to lighter.
That lack of consistency, as below and in many other examples, does not support a theory of female gender based symbolic convention
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ One reason why I don't like to get involved with these social media bickerings is that they are so elementary when there is so much info out there that there shouldn't be any arguments about it.
Metatron is suppose to be a historical experts of some sorts. I don't know his credentials if he has a masters or doctorate but he is I think a school teacher and as an Italian he is very knowledgeable about his Italian/Roman heritage being fluent in Latin as well. This is why I find it somewhat disingenuous he makes these claims of Egypt being "multiracial" i.e. (a cop-out for not completely black) when the Romans like Greeks before them called the Egyptian people maure or atri (synonyms for black) NOT olive or tanned. LOL The Greeks called them melanchroi meaning black-skinned. All of this was discussed here: Colorlines in Classical North Africa
Of course Metatron's claim has truth to it but the devil is in the details. Egypt has experienced surges of immigration from Asia in different periods of its history. We know there was large scale immigration from at least the Middle Kingdom leading to Hyksos rule and most of these populations settled in the Delta but to then claim this makes the entire country multi-ethnic is not only disingenuous but hypocritical because we know for example that ancient Greece as a civilization or culture IS the product of Asiatic immigrants and these original founders of Helladic Culture that preceded the Greek speaking Achaeans were not Indo-European speakers but peoples with ties to Anatolia. Yet ALL histories call ancient Greek civilization 'European' and most people assume its inhabitants to be 'white' and not multi-racial despite the fact that since the Neolithic some of these Asiatics show African affinities. Yet when it comes to Egypt whose culture developed solely in Africa amongst speakers of African languages and people who biologically exhibit African traits including melanated skin, somehow are just 'multi-racial'.
I think Metatron's problem is that he does not want to give up the Romantic Western image of Egyptians as the off-white non-black (Asiatic?) people he has always imagined them to be.
I agree with you that the mult-racial argument highly fallacious and disingenuous, and I appreciate the link pertaining to ancient colorlines.
I know that during the middle kingdom there were asiatic migrations, but I believe that these populations would've been kicked out from Egypt thanks to the efforts of Ahmose I. With this in mind is there any evidence of southern European presence during the time period of this tomb?
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Close, 19th, Egyptian official Userhat (during Seti I}.
Thanks for identifying the original tomb. There's so many out there it can be like finding a needle in the haystack at times.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Close, 19th, Egyptian official Userhat (during Seti I}.
Thanks for identifying the original tomb. There's so many out there it can be like finding a needle in the haystack at times.
use reverse image search Also there was a wax headcone clue
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: is there any evidence of southern European presence during the time period of this tomb?
why are you asking that question if the Levant-Middle East is where Asiatics of the dynastic Egyptian period came from and there is also Libya, the Arabian peninsula and Mesopotamia, none of this Southern Europe
Posts: 43291 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ One reason why I don't like to get involved with these social media bickerings is that they are so elementary when there is so much info out there that there shouldn't be any arguments about it.
Metatron is suppose to be a historical experts of some sorts. I don't know his credentials if he has a masters or doctorate but he is I think a school teacher and as an Italian he is very knowledgeable about his Italian/Roman heritage being fluent in Latin as well. This is why I find it somewhat disingenuous he makes these claims of Egypt being "multiracial" i.e. (a cop-out for not completely black) when the Romans like Greeks before them called the Egyptian people maure or atri (synonyms for black) NOT olive or tanned. LOL The Greeks called them melanchroi meaning black-skinned. All of this was discussed here: Colorlines in Classical North Africa
Of course Metatron's claim has truth to it but the devil is in the details. Egypt has experienced surges of immigration from Asia in different periods of its history. We know there was large scale immigration from at least the Middle Kingdom leading to Hyksos rule and most of these populations settled in the Delta but to then claim this makes the entire country multi-ethnic is not only disingenuous but hypocritical because we know for example that ancient Greece as a civilization or culture IS the product of Asiatic immigrants and these original founders of Helladic Culture that preceded the Greek speaking Achaeans were not Indo-European speakers but peoples with ties to Anatolia. Yet ALL histories call ancient Greek civilization 'European' and most people assume its inhabitants to be 'white' and not multi-racial despite the fact that since the Neolithic some of these Asiatics show African affinities. Yet when it comes to Egypt whose culture developed solely in Africa amongst speakers of African languages and people who biologically exhibit African traits including melanated skin, somehow are just 'multi-racial'.
I think Metatron's problem is that he does not want to give up the Romantic Western image of Egyptians as the off-white non-black (Asiatic?) people he has always imagined them to be.
I agree with you that the mult-racial argument highly fallacious and disingenuous, and I appreciate the link pertaining to ancient colorlines.
I know that during the middle kingdom there were asiatic migrations, but I believe that these populations would've been kicked out from Egypt thanks to the efforts of Ahmose I. With this in mind is there any evidence of southern European presence during the time period of this tomb?
The leaders who ruled lower egypt may have been kicked out but not asiatic population.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Symbolic of what??
It's not a basic fact.
Its a theory and cannot be proven
Also note I just showed a sculpture of Sennefer and Meryt of the 18th dynasty, depicting her much lighter and yellowish yet Ankhesenamun on Tutankhamun's throne is the same reddish brown he is and Hatshepsut is also depicted the same reddish brown. Nefertiti back to lighter.
That lack of consistency, as below and in many other examples, does not support a theory of female gender based symbolic convention
[/QB]
Hmm I still suspect it's symbolic, based on ancient historians not mentioning the Egyptians supposed love of lighter skinned women during their documentation of their culture. In my opinion the best argument against the idea that the women were actually light skinned are the depictions of Queen Tiye.
In the below photo she's light skinned.
However in the below art her arm complexion matches that of her husband.
What logical deduction can be made here? That Amenhotep III had his wife work in the fields until her skin turned dark? The best explanation I can think of is that the complexion is linked to status. In the lighter skinned Tiye she's standing suggesting that she's of lower status and is subservient to the king. But in the dark skinned depiction they're both sitting, suggesting that they're of equal status (in the sense that they both serve as rulers of the state).
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quote:Originally posted by Ibis: Hmm I still suspect it's symbolic, based on ancient historians not mentioning the Egyptians supposed love of lighter skinned women during their documentation of their culture.
Symbolic of what? That is a vague answer that could be applied to anything.
I put up the historical information that Thutmose is believed to have had 3 foreign wives
And if some of his foreign wives were noticeably lighter that doesn't mean he made them his wives dues to having a preference for lights skin
I have also shown a New Kingdom noble with a dark skinned and another in a tomb of the same area with a lighter wife
Therefore even if some noble did like a woman for her light skin that does not mean you can make a generalization about what Egyptian noble men liked.
Thus you would not expect historians making some broad statement mentioning the Egyptians had a love of lighter skinned women and you cannot make an argument for what the reason was for depicting some women this way based on something not being mentioned. You have have to base it on something they ARE mentioning, if not, admitting to not having a certain answer
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Egyptian women were painted in a yellow hue unlike the much darker hue of the men indicating that such representations were symbolic than realistic. This is a basic fact of Egyptology that most laypeople are aware
Symbolic of what??
It's not a basic fact.
Its a theory and cannot be proven
Also note I just showed a sculpture of Sennefer and Meryt of the 18th dynasty, depicting her much lighter and yellowish yet Ankhesenamun on Tutankhamun's throne is the same reddish brown he is and Hatshepsut is also depicted the same reddish brown. Nefertiti back to lighter.
That lack of consistency, as below and in many other examples, does not support a theory of female gender based symbolic convention
I wonder if the lighter skin tone for some women at different stages could be symbolic of idealized femininity, age, marital status, being a mother (or not), etc? There are some cultures that distinguish between married/unmarried women or younger/older women symbolically, I wonder if this could have been the case for Ancient Egypt? I also remember seeing some depiction of an AE circumcision where the men performing the circumcision were dark in tone while the man undergoing the procedure was yellow/white, which led me to believe that his yellow/white tone indicated that he was not yet a man since he was not yet circumcised leading me to believe that yellow/white skin was associated with femininity in AE. But I'm not sure.
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In the tomb of some nobles are lighter skinned wives which one could not exclude the possibility that that was their real skin color and they resembled certain Berbers of today, or even like some of the lighter Khoisans as for skin tone
The above painting was made for the tomb a priest named Ameneminet (Tomb TT 277) The priest appears in his tomb paintings and it also has this picture of Amenhotep II and Tiye (the full scene has Ameneminet facing them in a hailing position) I think this was made about 300 years after Tiye died so this priest wasn't even alive when they were
My guess on her skin tone is that it is not realistic and doesn't have that yellowish light brown or beige tone like on other paintings It's more pinkish although it's hard to be certain how well preserved the color is
I think the proper thing to say about it is "it may not be realistic"
BUT I would not jump to the conclusion that her color is symbolic of something
I would not even speculate about color symbolism without even having a reasonable theory about what the symbolism was about without more information
they best we can say is "it may not be realistic"
and I can continue to demonstrate that in the 18th and 19th dynasty you cannot find a consistent pattern of how the females depicted light, some are just as brown as their husbands, others noticeably lighter
Sometimes people get distracted by goddesses in some of these tombs being depicted yellow, like in the tomb of Nefertari (but she is brown) In the case of those goddesses they are often even lighter and more yellow and I think it's reasonable to speculate that is supposed to be gold skin but they are goddess
One thing I have noticed is that it seems most Queens are depicted a typical medium brown like their husbands, like the wife of Seti I and Tutankhamen and many others
BUT the lighter wives seem to be more common with certain non-royal officials
(I exclude some of the kings multiple "queen consorts", "lesser" wives they had in addition to their main wives)
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I wonder if the lighter skin tone for some women at different stages could be symbolic of idealized femininity, age, marital status, being a mother (or not), etc? There are some cultures that distinguish between married/unmarried women or younger/older women symbolically, I wonder if this could have been the case for Ancient Egypt? I also remember seeing some depiction of an AE circumcision where the men performing the circumcision were dark in tone while the man undergoing the procedure was yellow/white, which led me to believe that his yellow/white tone indicated that he was not yet a man since he was not yet circumcised leading me to believe that yellow/white skin was associated with femininity in AE. But I'm not sure.
I don't wonder about these things because I the top I am looking at the wife of a noble name Meryt and she looks like Beyonce to me or a berber living today in North Africa
This other piece you are talking about with the circumcision you are talking about where the males on the receiving end are light. I would have to see some more references on that. I have seen a version of that which is a relief with no color at all on it. So if somebody has a version with these two colors for the giver and receiver of the procedure I would have to see some documentation that at some earlier point in time there was color left on that piece, maybe some old photo of it or written account I am not convinced yet that color was original
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Symbolic of what??
It's not a basic fact.
It's a theory and cannot be proven.
It has to be symbolic because there cannot be a stark contrast in color between men and women of a homogeneous population. Also there are instances where a woman is portrayed yellow in some portraits while in others a darker more natural color.
Also there here hints that khenet (yellow) is symbolic of feminine vitality and power. In modern Afrasian speakers in Africa like Tuareg and other Saharan Berber tribes, as well as the Beja and some Ethiopian and Somalis, women in special occasions paint themselves with yellow makeup, and all these cultures associate yellow with fertility and female vitality. Do you think this is coincidence?
quote:Also note I just showed a sculpture of Sennefer and Meryt of the 18th dynasty, depicting her much lighter and yellowish yet Ankhesenamun on Tutankhamun's throne is the same reddish brown he is and Hatshepsut is also depicted the same reddish brown. Nefertiti back to lighter.
That lack of consistency, as below and in many other examples, does not support a theory of female gender based symbolic convention.
Throne image of Tutankhamun and his wife Ankhesenamun
exceptional case of Nebamun whose wife and daughter are darker than him Posts: 26740 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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More to the original point of Metatron's argument, if Egyptians were Asiatics then why did Metatron's Roman ancestors depict the Egyptians as below??..
Roman mosaic dated to ca. 829-1200 A.D of native Ancient Egyptians who were prevalent in the country during Saint Mark’s era (ca. 1st century A.D), this is located in the Pentecost Cupola mosaic in St Mark’s Basilica in Venice, Italy.
These Afrocentric detractors just need to ask Metatron about the above portrait. What could he say that these weren't really Egyptians but black slaves of the Egyptians?? LOLPosts: 26740 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: More to the original point of Metatron's argument, if Egyptians were Asiatics then why did Metatron's Roman ancestors depict the Egyptians as below??..
I doubt Metatron said "the Egyptians were Asiatics". To critique Metatron you would have to go to one of his videos and quote a complete sentence or more by him and time stamp it. Clicking "show transcript" at the bottom of the video's description box to copy and paste quotes if necessary He's a rookie to me and I don't like the term "olive skinned" and I'm not here to defend him but to critique him you need a verbatim sentence of his, not assume he said something
We have two New Kingdom Theban tombs here, 18th and 19th
One wife is lighter than her husband, the other the same as her husband
Thus you can't prove the lighter one is due to a gender based artistic convention where they artificially lightened her but did not do so with other wives in these dynasties
Since you there are many berbers with the skin tone she has (and Khosians) you can't exclude the possibility that Meryt may have looked like this
Although she might be artificially lightened for some unknown reason I think some people want that to be the case because they want the Egyptians to be against marrying lighter skinned people and wanted to be racially "pure"
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Anyway, I agree with DJ that a lot of the social media conversations on this topic are plain garbage due to how misinformed and often willfully delusional the commentators tend to be. This is true for both the Eurocentrics and many if not most of the Afrocentrics. It’s why I can’t stand most of these debates outside this forum.
As for Metatron, I don’t think he necessarily means to be racist, but he does seem to be a conservative type reacting against perceived “wokeness”, and he probably thinks African Egypt is an example of that. A lot of nerdy White guys like him, including even some supposed progressives as well as the anti-woke conservatives, aren’t used to the idea that Black people might be native to anywhere outside what we now call sub-Saharan Africa. They’re too used to historical illustrations and documentaries depicting ancient Egyptians and other North Africans as “Arab”-looking and have never thought to question them. Cultural conditioning can be powerful like that.
My guess on her skin tone is that it is not realistic and doesn't have that yellowish light brown or beige tone like on other paintings It's more pinkish although it's hard to be certain how well preserved the color is
I think the proper thing to say about it is "it may not be realistic"
BUT I would not jump to the conclusion that her color is symbolic of something
I would not even speculate about color symbolism without even having a reasonable theory about what the symbolism was about without more information
they best we can say is "it may not be realistic"
Okay, even though you don't agree with the symbolism argument, you still admit that the "yellow women" are a non-realistic stylized depiction of their actual skin tone. At the very least we can agree that the yellow depictions are stylized art.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:One thing I have noticed is that it seems most Queens are depicted a typical medium brown like their husbands, like the wife of Seti I and Tutankhamen and many others
BUT the lighter wives seem to be more common with certain non-royal officials
(I exclude some of the kings multiple "queen consorts", "lesser" wives they had in addition to their main wives)
This seems to support my deduction that the skin tones may be a symbol of status, wouldn't you say?
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: I'm not even sure what lioness's beef with the Tut reconstructions (either by King's Monologue or my own) is.
I have no beef with them, just showing them, the OP video is not a Metatron video. It's a a Kuelmika and King’s Monologue discussion video, and for reference those reconstructions show where they are coming from and your picture is similar. They and you changed the skin color as compared to that bust but I'm not commenting whether or not there is a reasonable justification for it or not, you can judge. KM's reconstructions are well crafted I will say.
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quote:Originally posted by Ibis: Okay, even though you don't agree with the symbolism argument, you still admit that the "yellow women" are a non-realistic stylized depiction of their actual skin tone. At the very least we can agree that the yellow depictions are stylized art.
No, each case is a separate case and I have already showed there is not a consistent pattern
You showed a painting or Tiye made 300 years after her death and it was pinkish not yellowish. It does not look believable to me and the level of finesse of the artist had depicting her face is in terms of realism, is cartoonish, near Simpsons level for depicting a realistic human. That lacking casts doubt to me also on the skin tone and keep in mind these artist could not go and look at a lot of the art depicting a Queen for reference, it was locked away in a sealed tomb.
Since a yellowish skin tone occurs in North African berbers and Khosians (even some Nigerians) (not pinkish like that painting of Tiye) I do not exclude the possibility that in a case like Meryt of the 18th dynasty, Nefertiti and others they may have had the skin tone as they are depicted, similar in skin tone to Beyonce and Rihanna
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: my deduction that the skin tones may be a symbol of status, wouldn't you say?
No, there is no evidence of that. Most of the Queens are depicted the same brown as their king husbands. Some of the non-royals official's wives are brown, others a noticeably light brown or beige, yellowish
If the light color showed status they would all have it but they don't, so that is just another random guess and hop that some of these women were not in real life lighter than others
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quote:Originally posted by Ibis: This post pertains to a reaction video where Kuelmika and King’s monologue both react to Metatron’s response Link.
At 2:14:40 of the video One of Metatron’s pieces of evidence for a multi-ethnic (well more specifically multi racial) Egypt is this picture of what he states to be a tanned mediterranean woman.
King Mono’s counter argument to this is that the Egyptians wouldn’t overlap two people with the same skin tone (stated at 2:15:52). He also mentions that there’s a possibility that the “tanned woman” may have just been yellow boned.
Personally, while I am aware that Egyptian art often follows strict and specific conventions, and that yellow boned Africans do exist, I was wondering if there was any validity to Metaron’s claims. While, I don’t know the exact source, the tomb highlighted here seems to be during/post the 18th dynasty, so I was wondering if there any evidence of southern European/ White asiatic presence in Egypt in this time period?
Also, does anyone know which tomb is highlighted here? I would like to see the full mural.
Metatron doesn't have a point. He is just someone that has gotten into a social media debate between himself and some other African centered youtubers. And as social media goes, it just drives clicks basically, because honestly Metatron is no different than many of the Eurocentric trolls who have come through this forum over the years spewing nonsense.
As for the art, I don't know why you as a forum member who has been here for a while somehow don't know the artistic conventions of the nile valley itself. Alternating colors for men and women is consistent throughout the history of the Nile Valley and also has been used for groups of men and groups of women at various times. Obviously it is artistic, stylistic and symbolic based on an evolving canon of artistic representation.
It just so happens that they chose those particular tombs to try and promote a strawman to confuse people, when we have seen numerous times obviously dark skinned female mummies depicted as pale or yellow in tomb art especially.
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[/QUOTE]If the light color showed status they would all have it but they don't, so that is just another random guess and hop that some of these women were not in real life lighter than others [/QB][/QUOTE]
That's assuming that all non-royal officials were of the same status or rank, it's likely that there were higher and lower ranking non-royal officials just like you see today. I definitely think it's possible that these women were simply lighter toned in real life, but it's curious that more of them tended to be married to non-royal officials.
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If the light color showed status they would all have it but they don't, so that is just another random guess and hop that some of these women were not in real life lighter than others
That's assuming that all non-royal officials were of the same status or rank, it's likely that there were higher and lower ranking non-royal officials just like you see today. I definitely think it's possible that these women were simply lighter toned in real life, but it's curious that more of them tended to be married to non-royal officials.
If non-royals had differing levels of status that does not support a theory that I have never heard before an Egyptologist mention, that the lighter color was not their actual dark color because they were painted that way to indicate a status level
I don't think the theory should even be proposed without investigating some status level and then linking that to lighter depiction
^ This is the thread topic. I don't know if this is the exact image that Metatron used but the female in the back is colored orange-ish It seems to be this from the Metropolitan Museum
^^ this is a recent photo she doesn't look orange-ish, she looks light brown
Either in 1930 the color was more vibrant like that, orangish or Norman de Garis Davies guessed it looked liked that originally
But I would rather go by the light brown because that is a photo of the actual wall
On the right is the Goddess Nut. She is not depicted yellowish but instead a naturla looking beige-light brown color
To the left is Userhat, priest of the Temple of Thutmosis I.
quote: His wife and mother sit on chairs behind his, with their left hands resting on his shoulder and arm, whilst the cups in their right hands also accept the heavenly draught from Nut. Although Userhat isn't named in this scene, the two women are identified by the text written on their right forearms, which now has almost vanished (see Davies detail). They are thus seen to be: " (His) wife, house-mistress and chantress (of Amon), Hatshetsut" and " (His) mother, chantress (of) Amon, Ta-usert". It is unusual to find the mother and wife seated together. The unusual naturalness of the complexions of the two female's faces adds greatly to the quality of the imagery, Hatshepsut being presented as a deeper colour than the mother.
Assuming this is accurate, me having spent time researching this, now I can say that that light coloration of his mother, who according to this description, is in an unusual position seated together wife and is wife darker depicted wife, that lightness of his mother could be an artistic device. We can't be certain. His mother could still have been in actuality light and his father was darker than he was. So there is still no proof of anything But we should also look to other images in the tomb for context like I did earlier before trying to speculate that some un-natutal artistic device is being used:
In the second row we a group of middle brown, slightly yellowish females, to their right darker brown males
Below that some other stuff going on, lots of variation
It's a complex situation
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quote:Originally posted by Ibis: With this in mind is there any evidence of southern European presence during the time period of this tomb?
At least in the 18th dynasty there are signs of contacts with Crete which is suggested by Minoan paintings in the Egyptian palace at Tell el-Dab‘a/‘Ezbet Helmi in the eastern Nile Delta.
posted
Wall Tile Depicting an Asian Captive Period: New Kingdom, Ramesside Dynasty: Dynasty 20 Reign: reign of Ramesses III Date: ca. 1200–1085 B.C. Upper Egypt; Thebes, Medinet Habu Medium: Faience
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: No, there is no evidence of that. Most of the Queens are depicted the same brown as their king husbands. Some of the non-royals official's wives are brown, others a noticeably light brown or beige, yellowish
If the light color showed status they would all have it but they don't, so that is just another random guess and hop that some of these women were not in real life lighter than others
I haven't been able to find any evidence supporting my theory, so I'll concede for now.
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quote:Originally posted by Ibis: With this in mind is there any evidence of southern European presence during the time period of this tomb?
At least in the 18th dynasty there are signs of contacts with Crete which is suggested by Minoan paintings in the Egyptian palace at Tell el-Dab‘a/‘Ezbet Helmi in the eastern Nile Delta.
Thank you for reminding me of this post. While this and the evidence of marriages of foreign Syrian princesses from Lioness is interesting, it doesn't seem to be enough to support Metatron's claim of a multi-racial Egypt existing at the period of the highlighted art.
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Interestingly most documentation of intermarriage with foreign women is about kings while those on foreign men is about common women. As I've stated there have been communities of Asiatics in the Delta especially in the eastern part since the Middle Kingdom, but how does that make the entire country multiracial?? Rome had foreign communities especially in their port cities all around Italy does that make the Romans multiracial?? Again, pure hypocrisy.
Posts: 26740 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Exactly what do you mean by 'races'?? Or is this a troll bait?
Posts: 26740 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Exactly what do you mean by 'races'??
you used the word "multiracial" a couple of posts back so I'm asking you if, excluding foreigners, is Africa multiracial by your definition of "multiracial"
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posted
^ I was referring to Metatron's use of "multiracial" which is code word for other peoples besides black Africans comprised Egypt. Does this mean other people besides white Europeans comprised Rome or Greece??
Posts: 26740 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I was referring to Metatron's use of "multiracial" which is code word for other peoples besides black Africans comprised Egypt. Does this mean other people besides white Europeans comprised Rome or Greece??
Always check the primary source, Metatron did not use the word race
He says "multicultural and multiethnic" (of the two in the three videos he is mainly using "multiethnic" )
My Response To KueliMika Channel On Black Egyptians 2023
2:27
"ancient Egypt was a multicultural and multiethnic civilization due to its geolocation connecting the Middle East Africa Asia and Europe a a strategic location on the crossroad of continents flourishing around the Nile river which was a cultural conduit of civilization therefore there is diversity on the skin of the Egyptians throughout time and location the ethnic percentages will vary depending on era and region according to the results of my research the majority of ancient Egyptians would have had an olive skin with a lower percentage of black individuals living mostly in the southern areas of Egypt and some white settlers and white ruling Elite during the later periods the ancient Egyptian were a multi-ethnic African civilization and their ethnicity was inextricably tied to the geographic location "
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the following begins with a different youtuber, KueliMika and then Metatron replies (different more recent "definitive" Metatron video)
My DEFINITIVE Response on Black Egypt (KueliMika, Mr. Imotep, TKM) 2024
48:02
KueliMika:
my point of contention again was that the multi-ethnic argument makes it sound like all ethnicities that were there at some point contributed equally to the foundation of the civilization that's simply not the case by this logic Metatron should have no problem calling ancient Rome a multi-ethnic civilization since it was present in Africa and Asia too and that many people of different ethnicities were part of the Great Roman Empire but were they equal to the people from southern Europe who founded the civilization no so Rome should be classified as another multi-ethnic civilization and no one in particular should claim it or at least Africa Asia and Europe together should claim the creation and development of the Roman civilization but we all know this does not stand because the ones who built the foundational elements that made that Civilization what it was and were the primary group to have unified the other ethnicities under their empire fire was a southern European ethnic group and Metatron you make videos where you are not okay with Europeans trying to over highlight the multi-ethnic side of ancient Rome in those analysis you look at the foundational population to back your argument but for ancient Egypt you don't do so but I am not one to ignore that
Metatron: I do not think this example fits because in order to fit the parameters need to be similar you're removing a very important factor from this equation time let's go 5,000 years in the future the year is 7,024 assuming that we are still around as a species and we don't have technology so Advanced that we would know everything about the past and then we talk about whether they think America was multiethnic in its foundation or not a much more complicated task the reason why now it's very clear who founded America uh is because it's very recent so you can't put this question in the same Spectrum as who founded ancient Egypt which occurred 5,000 years ago it is the very fact that we are speaking about about something that happened so long ago that makes answering this question very tricky and multi-layered it's complicated so you seem to want to prove that there is a double standard of play because I'm not saying that America is multiethnic in its foundation or that Rome was multiethnic in its foundation but I do it with ancient Egypt yet even in the case of Rome the situation is much more documented and it's much more recent there is in fact a massive difference between when Rome was founded and when ancient Egypt was founded when it comes to time frame and you of course know that that in other words apples and pears
It doesn't really matter whether he used the word "race" or not. From his use of the word "multi-ethnic" it's clear that he's unable to differentiate ethnicity and race, and is actually trying to argue for a multi-racial Egypt. The light skinned women he highlights clearly is of the same ethnicity/culture of the darker skinned Egyptians we see of the art since her clothing matches these, so why would he use the art as evidence of for a "multi-ethnic" Egypt, when we only see one ethnicity being displayed in the art?
Posts: 107 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2022
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It doesn't really matter whether he used the word "race" or not.
It matter a lot.
The proper ways to critique someone is to quote full sentences of them so we can be clear about what they said and what is the interpretation of what they are saying because we can see Djehuti said "
quote: I was referring to Metatron's use of "multiracial"
If someone critiques you don't you think it's fair for them for quote exactly what you said instead of them saying you used a word that you didn't
quote:Originally posted by Ibis:
From his use of the word "multi-ethnic" it's clear that he's unable to differentiate ethnicity and race, and is actually trying to argue for a multi-racial Egypt. The light skinned women he highlights clearly is of the same ethnicity/culture of the darker skinned Egyptians we see of the art since her clothing matches these, so why would he use the art as evidence of for a "multi-ethnic" Egypt, when we only see one ethnicity being displayed in the art?
That is a fair point but I think that should have been in the OP. IF you read that it is clear he did not use the word multiracial You could still not have mentioned race here because you could have said "he is describing skin color difference as multiethnic and that is not ethnic refers to" ( some who thinks race is not real could have said it this way)
or if you do believe in race but still being clear could have said "he is describing skin color difference as multiethnic and that is not ethnic refers to, it implies a racial difference.
quote: Originally posted by Ibis: At 2:14:40 of the video One of Metatron’s pieces of evidence for a multi-ethnic (well more specifically multi racial)
^^ this is not clear it could be interpreted in different ways a) he said specifically "multiracial" b) he multiracial is a subset of multiethnic c) multiethnic is basically the same as multiracial
Now you have clarified but it is not clear in the OP so Djehuti thought he used the word multiracial.
It's better to quote exactly at least one full sentence of what the person said even if you do have a video link
Someone could say "I don't believe in race but I do believe different ethnic groups can have a typical particular skin color"
The definitions of "race" and "ethnicity" are often not agreed on
So if he uses the word "multiethnic" and started talking about ethnicity I would have begun by posting on or more definitions of ethnicity
And both of these words could have been avoided altogether with the question "Is the painting an example of varying skin color in Egypt or is one of the women painted a color that was not her true color but an artistic-symbolic device "
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It doesn't really matter whether he used the word "race" or not. From his use of the word "multi-ethnic" it's clear that he's unable to differentiate ethnicity and race, and is actually trying to argue for a multi-racial Egypt. The light skinned women he highlights clearly is of the same ethnicity/culture of the darker skinned Egyptians we see of the art since her clothing matches these, so why would he use the art as evidence of for a "multi-ethnic" Egypt, when we only see one ethnicity being displayed in the art?
Indeed, "multi-ethnic" is a more accurate way of saying multi-racial. But let's go with it. Was Greece multi-ethnic or multi-cultural?? What about Roman Italy?? I am curious to know what Metatron's answers to the above query is. But getting back to Egypt, It is a Nile Valley African culture neighboring related Nile Valley cultures to its south, Libyans cultures to its northwest, and Asiatic cultures to its northeast.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Was Greece multi-ethnic or multi-cultural?? What about Roman Italy?? I am curious to know what Metatron's answers to the above query is.
you must have missed it, it's in the quote from his video, 4 posts back Metatron addresses that (posted 05 July, 2024 04:01 AM )
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posted
^ I don't have the time to watch the video but may you post his actual response?
I just find it hypocritical that we have more evidence of Greece being multiethnic (especially in the Neolithic) than Egypt yet nobody calls Greece a multiethnic civilization but simply a European (read white) one, despite the fact that culturally it had more in common with Asia.
Even Egyptologists from back in the day despite their racial claims of "Hamitic caucasians" say the roots of Egypt's culture lie totally in Africa and that it differed from anything seen in Asia or Europe. Egyptian culture was African down to its core and even the Co-Father of Egyptology E. A. Wallis Budge has shown that ancient Egypt had more in common with Sub-Saharan cultures than with the so-called Middle East. This forum has verified that countless times.
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posted
Again, there is a difference between an ethnic group of people who looked a certain way founding a culture or civilization and that civilization acquiring citizens from other ethnic backgrounds over time. Imperial China would have been multi-ethnic across its various dynasties, yet we can identify its founders with a specific ethnic group (namely Han Chinese from northern China).
posted
^ If you're referring to the above reply about Rome's founding, I find it very weak as well as disingenuous. We have documented evidence, though not as elaborate, for Egypt's founding in Ta-Shemau (Upper Egypt) by kings of Naqada Culture. Perhaps a better comparison to Egypt would be Greece because it comes closer to his "cross-roads" claim. Egypt lies in the northeastern corner of Africa right next to Asia but it's still in Africa. Greece lies in the southeastern corner of Europe in the very tip of the Balkan Peninsula. We have evidence of Asiatic immigration to Greece associated with the spread of Neolithic culture. We don't see the same evidence for Egypt. Instead, indigenous Egyptians adopt some of the crops of the Neolithic Asiatics but their culture remains distinctly African.
Josef Eiwanger (1987) Orange: Cardial and Impressoceramics Brown: Neolithic Capsian tradition light green: Saharo-Sudanese cultures (Khartoum culture, Shaheinab culture) red: Neolithic of the Niger purple: Levant - Old Neolithic (Fayum Neolithic, Merimde) green: Upper Egyptian Neolithic (Badari)
^ The Neolithic Fayum Culture is often linked to Epipaleolithic Natufian of the Levant due to certain similarities yet both genetics and archaeology show that Natufians are derived from northern Egypt and not vice-versa. Interestingly by the late Neolithic we have these findings of human skeletal remains: ..sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans.
The above comes from Donald Redford in The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press (2001)
As far as cultural affinities Redford also stated: Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization..
CERVELLÓ AUTUORI, Joseph, 'Egypt, Africa and the Ancient World', in: Proceedings 7th Int. Congress of Egyptologists The traditional contextualisation of Egypt in the 'Mediterranean' or 'Near Eastern' world has been produced by a phenomenon of western historiography that we can classify as the 'forgotten Africa'. The reopening of the African question in Egyptology has proceeded from the pre- and protohistorians of the Nile Valley and of northern Africa in general. The inclusion of late prehistoric Egypt in Africa determines the essentially African nature of many of the central features of Pharaonic civilisation and explains the many parallels between ancient Egypt and both the ancient Saharan and modern black civilisations. The author discusses examples of the iconographic-symbolic parallels between Saharan rock art and Egyptian art, and the principal cultural characteristics shared by ancient Egypt and modern black Africa. The African nature of Egyptian civilisation can be seen most clearly in the institution of Pharaonic kingship. M.W.K.
'The African Foundations of Ancient Egyptian Civilization' by David Wengrow The integration of animals into mortuary rites - which was to become a lasting feature of ancient Egyptian and Sudanese culture - provides powerful testimony that, as in other parts of the Old World, the inception of a neolithic economy in the Nile Valley was experienced through both objective and subjective processes of transfromation....Sherratt has coined the term "primary horticultural community" to describe the outcome of this process in South West Asia and temperate Europe, where early neolithic soceities defined themselves, and their relations with the outside world, in terms of an ideal pattern of co-residence, embracing both living and the dead within the physical community of house and village. The term "primary pastoral community" might be introduced in order to highlight the distinct character of early neolithic society in the Nile Valley, with its distinct configuration of herding, mobility, mortuary rites and the body as frameworks of social experience and reproduction. Just as the social morphology of early farming communities in Egypt and the Sudan was generated outside the physical confines of a constructed environment, so the cultural idiom in which they defined their changing relationships with the non-human world is best characterized , not in terms of 'domestication', but as a process of embodiment.
Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508 A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apis-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty. It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk).
All the above sources/scholars make it clear ancient Egyptian culture is NOT Asiatic nor European but clearly AFRICAN and the scholars who make these claims are not black nor Afrocentric by any means! That's why the whole "multicultural" argument is laughable and can be shot down quick by citing these sources to individuals like Metatron who make this claim.
As far as Metatron's claim of "olive" skin goes, again not only do we have the ancient artwork both in the form of murals and portraits showing the Egyptians to be dark enough to be called 'black', but we have tests done on mummy skin from Mekota & Vermehren study: Skin sections showed particularly good tissue preservation, although cellular outlines were never distinct. Although much of the epidermis had already separated from the dermis, the remaining epidermis often was preserved well (Fig. 1). The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin.
Of course when this study came out, it didn't get much attention for the obvious reasons and now we even have genetic results of mummies. Elmaestro ran the Egyptian samples from this study into his software and it shows them be 'very dark' (black) also.
Elmaestro or Brandon should post these results.
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