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The black Arabs were supposed to have spread all over Bilad al-Sudan in Pre-Islamic times but they didn't do this after Islam.
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quote: and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....
...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.
quote:The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.
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Abdul Karem thanks for the pictures. Based off of this recent info I went to find which companions of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him)came from Tihama. I found At- Tufayl Bin Amr Bin Dawsi, and the well known sahaba Abu Hurayrah Ad- Dawsi Al Yamani were from Tihama, (May Allah be pleased with them both). This tells me most likely, they were dark skinned also since they all came from this region. Here's a link with their bio's if you or anyone else is interested. This is a big find for me with the research I'm doing all thanks be to Allah, anyways thanks for the pics. As-salaamu Alaikum.
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Dana I have a few questions for you. I see you reference to a book called "Black Arabia" by Wesley Williams. Is this same author called Wesley Muhammad who has a book called "Black Arabia & the African Origin of Islam"? Also are you a Arab speaker. I'm just curious because you seem to have some knowledge regarding Arabian history. Also in your opinion is Tariq Berry sound in his analysis. I have been doing research about Arabian history and culture for a few years and not being a proficient Arab speaker really hinders the research, but Tariq seems to know his stuff from what I've read on another website. Anyways, keep up the good work. Also to let you know there's a book called "The Battles of the Prophet" by Ibn Kathir, in it on page 97 it reads, " Quraish came and encamped where the torrent beds of Ruma meet between Al-Jurut and Zughabah with ten thousand of their black mercenaries and their followers from the tribe of Kinanah and the people of Tuhamah (Tihamah)." I put this quote in relation to the picture you posted of the brother from Tihamah above. I always wanted some clarity to the passage I posted about the people of Tihamah, so the picture you provided was right on time. Thanks again.
Yes - this is the same person as Dr. Wesley Muhamed. I am not really an Arab speaker. I had taken a year and a half of Arabic as an undergraduate and only learned some conversational Arabic as well as the writing which I mostly forget. Most of my knowledge comes from translations of early works.
If you saw something that sounded like Tariq on another web-site it probably came from something he posted or something that either I or Wesley posted. Or someone copying our posts.
I'm pretty certain Tariq is of Arab descent (I think from the Gulf) and that Wesley speaks Arabic too.
Abdelkarem's statement about mistranslation of the word 'Habesh' points out the problem Western historians have presented in interpreting such words as color rather than ethnic designations.
The word 'habesh' may have come recently to be translated as "blacks" in the current "Arab" world or Middle East. The problem is that in the early writings of the Middle Eastern peoples the Arabians like the Kinanah and people of the Tihama were also called "blacks'. Many "Habeshat" came in to Arabia especially as a result of or as a counter for the Iranian (Persian) presence. At the time of Mohammed - which was long before the Syrian, Ibn Kathir lived - the Kenana, the Tihama and Abyssinians were basically all refered to as "blacks".
That is why it is of interest to know that Tihama was called Kush by Ibn Mudjawir (as Wesley had discovered) and that the Kenana (Canaanites) who were nearby are also referred to as "blacks" by all historians including Ibn Qutaybah of Kufa Iraq and ibn Munabih a descendant of the Ebna (Iranians in Yemen).
People like us who don't speak much Arabic need to be careful in reading translated works.
I said in my first post at the very top what I felt about Tariq's book. Although it is indispensable to learn about the Arabs and the fact that they were an extension of Africans (like Diop once said) and about roots of fear of blackness in the western world, there are some mistaken beliefs in my opinion.
In Tariq's book there are many quotes of early writers on the early Arabians up until the 14th century that show that they themselves and people north of them felt that near blackness and kinky hair were signs of being a true and "pure" Arab, and that it was rare to see a fair-skinned Arab in the Arabian peninsula, unlike today.
The importance of these are that they seem to have been ignored to such an extent by historians that modern peoples believe that Yemen Arabia has always been a place of Syrian and Iranian looking peoples, when in fact long after Muhammed Arabia was predominantly made up of the several physical types that now inhabitat eastern Africa and the northern Sudan streching to Senegal.
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quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Abdul Karem thanks for the pictures. Based off of this recent info I went to find which companions of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him)came from Tihama. I found At- Tufayl Bin Amr Bin Dawsi, and the well known sahaba Abu Hurayrah Ad- Dawsi Al Yamani were from Tihama, (May Allah be pleased with them both). This tells me most likely, they were dark skinned also since they all came from this region. Here's a link with their bio's if you or anyone else is interested. This is a big find for me with the research I'm doing all thanks be to Allah, anyways thanks for the pics. As-salaamu Alaikum.
Its important to remember that Central Arabia and northern Arabia were equally described as black by numerous writers except for their Byzantine (Rum) concubines brought into Hejaz and Harrah regions. The Sulaym and "all of the other tribes of the Harrah" in northwest Arabia were "black". As were the dozens of Qays, Rebia and Wa'il who extended from the Yemen through Central Arabia to the Euphrates.
Most fair-skinned tribes now living in Central Arabia and especially in the Gulf are Arab tribes who are people who settled from the Yemen in Syria and Iraq and began moving back into the penisula after the 16th century. While Yemenites have long been mixed with the Ebna (Iranians) and more recently with the Turks.
Dawasir of Yemama in the Nejd (Central Arabia)
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: Dana do you have any evidence to back up the ruling class mixed thing?
Edit: I'm only questioning the ruling class thing not saying there were any barriers between people
I got my evidence from reading African manuscripts, African writers and colonial writers. That is what Africans say. When you study African ethnohistory you already know that is what Africans say about their ancestors -whether it is Hausa, Zaghawa, Gobirawa, Kanuri, Bornu, Kwararafa or Akan and Yoruba. It is also shown by the structure of society and the walled cities of people like the Hausa.
One of the most recent writers on the subject is Dierke Lange, in Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa, 2004.
Archeology also shows movement of cultures at various times back into the Horn of Africa and into the Nile Valley. These movements occured after the dam at Marib broke and later when various fights occured between peoples of the Tehama long before th ebirth of Christianity or Islam.
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quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Abdul Karem thanks for the pictures. Based off of this recent info I went to find which companions of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him)came from Tihama. I found At- Tufayl Bin Amr Bin Dawsi, and the well known sahaba Abu Hurayrah Ad- Dawsi Al Yamani were from Tihama, (May Allah be pleased with them both). This tells me most likely, they were dark skinned also since they all came from this region. Here's a link with their bio's if you or anyone else is interested. This is a big find for me with the research I'm doing all thanks be to Allah, anyways thanks for the pics. As-salaamu Alaikum.
If you read el Tabari you will find that almost all of the Prophet's companions are described as dark in color or black being mainly from the Khazraj and Aus and other notoriously black and green Azd tribes (Dawasir are also of the Azd.)
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The cultural similarities don't mean they came from Arabia. The kings of Kanim could count an Arab ancestor this in no way shape or form means they are "mixed". What I am looking for is for you to post specific quotes
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
The Zaghawa are considered Sudan while the Tuaregs aren't. The Zaghawa conquered and extended their influence the Tuaregs normally acted as the henchmen of the Sudan. Arabia was a colony of Ethiopia not the other way around. You have yet to explain why the Arabiens seemed to have so much success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan before Islam but had very little success after Islam
These are the two things I'm looking for
1. Specific quotes about these ruling classes being "mixed"
2. Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam
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The result of such convergent investigations by scholars working in different fields was that Jacqueline Pirenne, basing herself on the areas material culture, as well as on linguistic and paleographic data, stood Conti Rossinis thesis on its head. She argued that migration was not from Yemen to Ethiopia, but rather in the opposite direction: from Ethiopia to Yemen.
quote:Meroe was the centre of the great caravan trade between Ethiopia, Egypt, Arabia, Northern Africa and India. Several colonies went from Meroe, and the first civilized state in Egypt, that of Thebes, which, as a resort for the caravans, always remained intimately connected with Meroe, and was governed by priests, must have originated thence......Ammonium (see Amman, and Oasis) also was a small priestly state, with a king, founded by Egyptians and by Ethiopians from Meroe. Meroe and Axum (in Abyssinia) which appears to have been also a colony from Meroe, remained the centre of the southern commerce till the time of the Arabians.
quote: and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....
...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.
The only thing I've read from Ibn Khaldun about Yemen/Abyssinia relations was that Yemen once had it's kings from Abyssinia. He also said that the Abyssinians believe that they will once again rule Yemen and all Arabia.
One more important quote from the "Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites". This quote also makes Arabian dominance seem more unlikely
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Dana I really appreciate this info you've provided for me. These findings are huge for me as a African American learning that many of the early Muslim predecessors were people of color too. Islam isn't about black or white either, but being raised in a racist society where your people were devalued and in many cases dehumanized, for me to learn what I'm learning is so fulfilling. I checked Amazon for Tariq's book also but it's still unavailable, so if you dont mind I really would appreciate if you could have him contact me, he and I have alot to rap about. Have you written any books on the subject yourself and are you Muslim? What are other sources you woud advise for me that have good sound info about this subject? Anyways, I'm gonna check out At Tabari's book and see what I can dig up, and many thanks again to you Dana, peace.
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Also, no offense to Mr. Wesley, but I'd have to pass on his book. The title of his book is wrong from the beginning, since Africa has nothing to do with the foundations of the Islamic religion. Islam was sent down in a different continent, to a non African, Arabic man who didn't speak, read or write any African language, as a matter of fact he (Muhammad peace be upon him) never even traveled to Africa. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was Arabic, by language, culture, residence, and blood relation, so to attribute anything to Africa is just as false as saying Islam's origins go to Iraq, or Persia. It's a false concept. I even noticed the quote where you say Wesley "discovered that Tihama was called Kush by Ibn Mudjawir". I do not believe this is the case because "Kush" isn't the word used by Arab speakers in reference to Ethiopia. Dana, I respect you and your research, but I won't dignify Wesley Muhammad's book or anyone else who tries to put any false concepts in the religion of AL Islam.
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With all the mounting evidence and proof of the Black Man/Woman's presence found all over the planet earth, why would anyone doubt that what we know as the Middle East could not have been the true origins of the Blackman/woman?
THEM taught that the Blackman is the original man, the Asiatic Blackman. Black/carbon/melinated skin is universal, just as the universe is dark/black. He also taught that the planet was once called Asia.
Wesley Muhammad is proving that the people who lived/practiced/spread (Peace)Islam were themselves, Black, just as all the ancient black Gods/dieties reflect. I'm sure Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw racism as being one of the reasons why Islam, as he was teaching, and the followers would stray off the path after 3 generations had come to pass. Some of the biggest racist in religion are Arab Muslims treatment towards Blacks.
1. From L., from Gk. Asia, speculated to be from Akkad. asu "to go out, to rise," in reference to the sun, thus "the land of the sunrise."
2. the largest continent with 60% of the earth's population; it is joined to Europe on the west to form Eurasia; it is the site of some of the world's earliest civilizations, the nations of the Asian continent collectively.
The questions we need to be asking is "why does everyone hate black people? And in hating Black people are we hating the God of all the Abrahamic faiths?
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Original_womb/man. If your post was directed towards me, I am not doubting the middle east being the true origin of black man or woman. My problem was Wesley Muhammad sayin Islam's origins being linked with Africa. The whole concept of Islam being attributed with Africa is false. If Wesley wants to say black people were the earliest members of the Muslim faith that's one thing, but to call them African is wrong. To say these people were black so they're African is wrong also. There are black people all over the world, Phillipines, India, Malaysia, Pakistan, Australia. These people cannot be called African just because they're black when they speak no African dialect, have no African culture and lived in no African lands. If you tell a black Indian he's African he'll most likely disagree and say he's whatever his people call themselves. This is the point I'm trying to make. So if Wesley Muhammad wants to call the early Muslims black skinned or dark skinned,that's one thing, but don't say African because that's not the case.
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quote:2. Now the Ethiopians, as historians relate, were the first of all men and the proofs of this statement, they say, are manifest. For that they did not come into their land as immigrants from abroad but were natives of it and so justly bear the name of "autochthones"
.....and Heracles and Dionysus, although they visited all the inhabited earth, failed to subdue the Ethiopians alone who dwell above Egypt, both because of the piety of these men and because of the insurmountable difficulties involved in the attempt.....
....These, then, are the customs which prevail among the Ethiopians who dwell in their capital (Napata) and those who inhabit both the island of Meroe and the land adjoining Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: My problem was Wesley Muhammad sayin Islam's origins being linked with Africa. The whole concept of Islam being attributed with Africa is false. If Wesley wants to say black people were the earliest members of the Muslim faith that's one thing, but to call them African is wrong. To say these people were black so they're African is wrong also.
African influence at the time of Islam and before Islam and even after Islam was supreme. I use the general term "African" because Abyssinia was not the only nation that had influence
quote:During the first or Meccan period (610=622) of his prophetship Muhammad and his followers looked upon the Abyssinian Christians as their religious kinsmen. "Yonder," he said to some of his persecuted converts without protectors, and, as he spake, pointing westward: "Yonder lieth a land where none is wronged. Go thither, and remain till the Lord open a way". Dean Stanley noted this connection between the Abyssinian Christians and the first Muslims. He wrote: "Springing out of the same oriental soil and climate, if not from the bosom of the oriental church itself, in part under its influence, in part by reaction, Muhammadanism must be regarded as an eccentric, heretical form of eastern Christianity. This was the ancient mode of regarding Muhammad. He was considered not the founder of a new religion but, rather, one of the chief heresiarchs of the church"
quote:It is an interesting fact that among the few words of Christian origin in the Quran some, including Shaitan or Satan, came from Abyssinia.
Footnote Perry Noble writes that a Dr Smith
quote:regards Islam as in many respects a counterpart of medieval Christianity" and that "professor Duncan Macdonald even calls "Islam simply Calvinism!
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Original_womb/man. If your post was directed towards me, I am not doubting the middle east being the true origin of black man or woman.
Don't you think that the first people in the world would also be the ones to develop archery? Do any ancient writers even believe the "Middle East" was the birthplace of man?
“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
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Markellion, to quote a "orientalist" in his views of Islams origins is like asking a klansmen to tell me the life story of Shaka Zulu. Yes the Prophet (peace be upon him)was aware of the righteous Christian king in Abyssinia, and yes some early Muslims had to take refuge in there country due to the persecution they received for saying there is nothing worthy of worship except Allah,the Lord of the worlds, but to say that because of these factors,the Abyssinians had to have played a factor in any aspects of the views or beliefs of the religion of Islam is way off the mark. This Dean Stanley character cannot even tell you the true name of our religion, instead of calling us Muslims and the religion Islam, it is called "muhammadanism". Either he's ignorant or a liar, and either way he deserves none of my valuable time or energy. This is why I'm very careful who I learn my history from. Orientalists and people writing on behalf of western authorities tend to be some of the worst writers racists, and fabricators, such as this clown who you quoted to me.
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The person I was quoting was indeed a racist and allot of things he wrote were wrong but the part I quoted has a great deal of truth in it.
God for whatever reason decided to give the Arabs a book and this book was written in the Arabic language. It would be logical if God was communicating through the Arab's understanding of things and it would also be logical that Abyssinian culture was also in the mix in spreading the message.
Edit:
In fact one could claim Abyssinians were God's instrument in spreading the message and the Arabs were receivers
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Markellion I'm only going to say this one more time. There was no African influence on Islam. Muhammad peace be upon him was born in Mecca, raised in Mecca, received revelation in Mecca, and when he was exiled he moved to another city in Arabia north of Mecca. He didn't go to Africa, he didn't have Christian African advisors, or African teachers, he didn't speak any African dialect, he didn't wear the traditional garb of the African, and he wasn't African. Allah says in the Quran that the Quran was sent down in the Arabic language to a unlettered (illiterate) Prophet. There were Africans who lived in Arabia, the Prophet had African companions, so of his companions moved to Africa for a short period then returned to Arabia but does this mean they were emulating Africans, or learning the Christian religion, NO!The Prophet had Persian companions, Roman, short, tall, dark, light, handsome, not so handsome man, woman, and child.....this is the Prophet sent to all of mankind and the unseen spirits called the Jinn, and the beleivers hate falsehood being attributed to our way.
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Markellion how can it be logical that Abyssinian culture be involved in spreading the message when the book wasn't sent down to them? It would make more sense that the religion be spread by the ones it was sent down in the midst of. Pardon me if I come off as rude, but I don't like Orientalist writers who lie and fabricate to make points.
-------------------- Abu Isa Posts: 14 | From: America | Registered: Jan 2010
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If Mohamed was literate it would be a good example of how history has been severely distorted
page 27
quote:The Arabs of the 7th century used letters as numbers. This alphabetical numbering system is called "Abjad." The merchants of those days had to know the letters of the alphabet to record their accounts! If Muhammad was a successful international merchant, as is universally accepted, then he most probably knew this numbering system. The Arabs stopped using the "Abjad" system in the 9th century when they took "Arabic numbers" from India.
Do you know if Ibn Khaldun said that Mohamed traveled to Mecca? Is the bellow a mistranslation? I don't know what to think about it I'd appreciate anyone explaining the bellow to me. However I'm certain the Abyssinian king converting was pure propaganda
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained"
quote: "Adjoining the Berber are the Abyssinians, the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia.
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Actually I've had a theory for a while that all these religions were manipulated by Africans to their own advantage and this going back to ancient Greece.
See alTakruri's thread "Catholic Europe biggest Afronuts for Black Jesus and Mary"
quote: and it is generally held that the sacrifices practised among the Ethiopians are those which are the most pleasing to heaven. As witness to this they call upon the poet who is perhaps the oldest and certainly the most venerated among the Greeks; for in the Iliad he represents both Zeus and the rest of the gods with him as absent on a visit to Ethiopia to share in the sacrifices and the banquet which were given annually by the Ethiopians for all the gods together:
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I've heard many shocking claims about Abyssinian influence during the early days of Islam. One was from John Hendrick Clark who claimed Bilal was a lawyer and not a freed slave! I don't know if he made it up or even how he reached that conclusion
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markellion, you bring alot of info from Orientalists with their anti Islamic agenda, and John Henrick Clark is no Islamic scholar. It is unanimous that Bilal, may Allah be pleased with him was a Abyssinian slave. Now we have 1400 years later, someone who knows no Arabic, never learned the religion from any person of knowledge coming with his theories and bringing no proof to support the claim. No offense, but when you say the Abyssinians were "the people of the book and would have been instruments of God", you are drawing your own conclusion based off your whims and desires. The Christian religion was destroyed by this very thing, people thinking they know better than God and changing the book to suit their desires. Now we have black nationalists reading books by racist white Orientalists who quote from these texts like they're sound scripture. C'mon now. All I need to know of the history of Islam is from what the pious predecessors of this religion have told me. I learned years ago not to go to Orientalists ,black nationalists or any nationalists for that matter because they all have agendas, while only the righteous believers have the truth. Orientalists are like Scientists. The scientist job is to use science to prove God doesn't exist, but they already have it set in their heads God isn't real. A Orientalist is on payroll to get as much info to draw doubt or belittle foreign cultures or beliefs in most cases. This is done with truth or without truth. I don't even take translations from every Muslim so why would I waste my time with the supposed translation of some untrustworthy, deceitful, manipulative, agenda having, racist, disbelieving Orientalist who've proven time and time again that they use their history books to spread falsehood? The Hijra you wrote about is the migration to Madinah which is North of Mecca. The Prophet peace be upon him didn't migrate to Ethiopia. Some of his companions did, but he never did, so I don't know about the info you have, but it's not accurate and it's not surprising. If you really want to know the truth, read from truthful people and stop taking info from people who oppose the truth. Would you want to learn about Chinese culture from the Japanese, or the Chinese themselves?
-------------------- Abu Isa Posts: 14 | From: America | Registered: Jan 2010
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A couple things were actually questions about things that I have heard about and I wasn't posting it as fact.I tried to make it clear which things were questions
Also I meant that the Abyssinians were a people of the book
I was wondering if this was a mistranslation.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Do you know if Ibn Khaldun said that Mohamed traveled to Mecca? Is the bellow a mistranslation? I don't know what to think about it I'd appreciate anyone explaining the bellow to me. However I'm certain the Abyssinian king converting was pure propaganda
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained"
quote: "Adjoining the Berber are the Abyssinians, the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia.
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Dana I really appreciate this info you've provided for me. These findings are huge for me as a African American learning that many of the early Muslim predecessors were people of color too. Islam isn't about black or white either, but being raised in a racist society where your people were devalued and in many cases dehumanized, for me to learn what I'm learning is so fulfilling. I checked Amazon for Tariq's book also but it's still unavailable, so if you dont mind I really would appreciate if you could have him contact me, he and I have alot to rap about. Have you written any books on the subject yourself and are you Muslim? What are other sources you woud advise for me that have good sound info about this subject? Anyways, I'm gonna check out At Tabari's book and see what I can dig up, and many thanks again to you Dana, peace.
Hi Abu Isa - no I'm not a Muslim and I am so glad you have been inspired to look back at who the original Arabs were in learning of what they were not.
I have written plenty of articles on the subject of ancient Arabian ethnicity ncluding ones that are different blogs on the internet. You can see some of my articles in Dr. Van Sertima's Journal of African Civilizations in Egypt Child of Africa and Golden Age of the Moors. My research mostly deal with pre-Islamic and early Islamic Arabia or early "Hebraic" Arabia. I'm about to put my series of articles When Arabia was Ethiopia back up on the Ancient Egypt forum.
In order for us to understand who the Egyptians were you have to know the ancient heritage of Arabia. I also have articles on the subject posted on Egyptsearch forum. Anyone interested in religion should also understand that the earliest Muslims, Christians (Meunim or Banu Ma'an or Ma'in) and Jews or Yehudi came originally from the region of Wadh or Yehud in Arabia near Merib. These people worshipped the divine in the form of a lion Audh or Wadh, hence the name Yahud or Judah the lion's whelp. This is why Gnosticism is so closely related to ancien Egyptian "religion".
When I put back up my writings, I will let you know because that is where you will see useful bibliography. Otherwise you can see much of the info on the pages I started by clicking on my name.
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quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Original_womb/man. If your post was directed towards me, I am not doubting the middle east being the true origin of black man or woman. My problem was Wesley Muhammad sayin Islam's origins being linked with Africa. The whole concept of Islam being attributed with Africa is false. If Wesley wants to say black people were the earliest members of the Muslim faith that's one thing, but to call them African is wrong. To say these people were black so they're African is wrong also. There are black people all over the world, Phillipines, India, Malaysia, Pakistan, Australia. These people cannot be called African just because they're black when they speak no African dialect, have no African culture and lived in no African lands. If you tell a black Indian he's African he'll most likely disagree and say he's whatever his people call themselves. This is the point I'm trying to make. So if Wesley Muhammad wants to call the early Muslims black skinned or dark skinned,that's one thing, but don't say African because that's not the case.
Between 6th millenium B.C. and 11,000 years ago African populations began to move into the Nile and Arabia from regions of the Sahara and southward. They brought in the Afro-Asiatic language group that developed into something called "semitic". Thus, many people who still speak the ancient Sabaean in Arabia dialects still claim African origin. The same thing with the purer Dravidian peoples. Thus, Wesley is not too off the mark in calling these ancient people African. Even in Muhammed's time many of the Arabs still retained east African cultural traits, including circumcision, matrifocal customs, totemism, plaiting their hair, wearing cowry shells, and scarring their faces, as well as many other rituals and customs that were not found in other cultures.
Many of the pre-Islamic Arabian deities of the Sabaean pantheon were actually east African in origin. The names of the tribes were in fact the same. The tomb types and rock art were the same. Arabia was in fact the "Ethiopia" of many Greek writings. Regardless of where these people originally came from or what we call them, the important thing is they were one and the same and the earliest philosophies of the people of the book originated with them.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Abu Isa: [qb]
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by markellion: The black Arabs were supposed to have spread all over Bilad al-Sudan in Pre-Islamic times but they didn't do this after Islam.
There were no black Arabs. Arabs were Arabs and the color of the Arabs according to the Arabs was black.
Most of the traditions with regard to the Arab origins have to do with pre-Islamic Arabia. Very few have to do with the period after islam except for in the modern country Sudan and Chad of course where in the north their are still true Arabs as well as some of the Somali and Eritreans.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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That is the thing, I would assume the Arabs would be better at spreading out after Islam rather than before Islam. The only thing I am disputing the the ruling class mixed thing
Some of the things I mentioned earlier were wild claims and rumors but I was simply asking about them rather than accepting them as fact. Do you still believe whole ruling classes were mixed with Arabs as opposed to some intermarriages? Again don't you think it is odd that it seems most of these migrations occurred before Islam?
Anyway to Abu Isa about Christian nations and their influence in the Islamic world Abyssinia was not the only African nation with this influence. I would think this influence existed since Pre-Islamic times
“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
quote: 3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)
quote:at periods the Nubians gained the upper hand, as in 737 when Cyriacus, their then king, marched into Egypt with a large army to redress the grievances of the Copts. There is a record of an embassy sent by a king Zacharias in the 9th century to Bagdad concerning the tribute, .....
....Nevertheless, the Nubians were strong enough to invade upper Egypt during the reign of Nawaya Krcstos (1342-1372), because the governor of Cairo had thrown the patriarch of Alexandria into prison.
My problem was Wesley Muhammad sayin Islam's origins being linked with Africa. The whole concept of Islam being attributed with Africa is false. If Wesley wants to say black people were the earliest members of the Muslim faith that's one thing, but to call them African is wrong.
As-Salaamu Alaikum,
The best thing to do is read the book or if you don't want to buy the book check him out on youtube; then you will be able to clearly understand why he references Africa/Africans.
You have to understand that in colloquial terms, Africa/African is widely used to describe Blacks throughout the diaspora. Since science claims Africa as the origin of all of humanity, wouldn't it be safe to refer to the origins of religion as African/Black in origin? The average person has no clue about Blacks/Africans even being Indigenous to the Middle East.
Also, I noticed you did not address the rampant racism in Islam, especially by the lighter Arabs against the darker people, including Black Muslims.
Posts: 35 | From: ATL | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:The Negroes can also be proud of the fact that the single dead person over whom the Prophet ever prayed was their ruler, the Emperor of Ethiopia. He prayed for the Negus, while the Prophet was in Medina, and the tomb of the Negus in Abyssinia
quote:They were Christians, it should be remembered, for many centuries, and although the flourishing Christian Empire of Nubia, with its seventeen bishoprics and its thirteen viceroyalties, all governed by priests, was not founded, as is commonly supposed, by the renowned Silco, " King of the Noubads and of all the Ethiopians," it was strong enough frequently to invade Egypt in defence of their oppressed Greek and Koptic fellow-Christians. So early as 640 a combined army of Nubas and Bejas, said to have numbered 50,000 men with 1500 elephants, penetrated as far north as Oxyrhynchus (the Arab Bahnosa) where such a surprising store of Greek and other documents was discovered in 1897. Cultured peoples with such glorious records, and traditions going back even to pre-Christian times (Silco and Queen Candace, contemporary of Augustus
posted
Before I reply to everyone I want you all to excuse me because I'm a little confused about how to reply to each member on this board so I just type away and address each individual until I learn how the reply works. First to Dana thanks again for your info and whenever you get your writings up let me know and I'll definitely check them out. I will say too, I don't doubt the African origins of much of the Arab "culture", but the Arab culture doesn't represent the Islamic religion because many of the customs were erased with the advent of Islam, and this is my main point. There's the culture, and then theirs the religion and the two aren't the same. To Markellion, first please forgive me if I come off snappy or rude because that's not my intention. Now, I know Muhammad peace be upon him had dialogue (through letters the Prophet ordered written)with the Negus or king of Abyssinia. Muhammad called him a fair, just religious man and recommended the oppressed companions to migrate to Abyssina because the Muslims would have justice and religious freedom there under the laws of the fair king. When this king died Muhammad (peace be upon him) prayed for this man. Some say this king actually converted to Islam which is why Muhammad prayed for him when the Negus died, as he (Muhammad peace be upon him)didn't pray for non Muslims who died after he was commanded to refrain from doing this after his beloved uncle died. So I am aware Muhammad knew of him, had communications with him, but the Prophet peace be upon him never himself traveld there and this is unanimous by all Muslims historians. Lastly to Original_womb/man, wa Alaikum salaam. In Islam we don't believe Adam, peace be upon him, our father and first man was African, it appears he was black as Allah says he was made from black clay/mud, and even the name Adam means tanned or dark depending on the translation you read. But Adam was made in Paradise, not on Earth so he wasn't a African man. But if he was African, you cannot say everything made by mankind is African in origin just because we all come from Africans. Products made by Pakistanis are still Pakistani by origin and not African, same with the Chinese, European or whatever. Wesley doesn't need to use these play on words like saying "If I say African I just mean black". His title of the book cannot be explained away. Black Arabia and the African origins of Islam means just that, Islam's origins lie in Africa which is a blatant lie perpetrated by a man who represents a nationalistic group who've had a history of trying to undermine Orthodox Islam. Islam is from God Allah who's not African, the religion was sent down to a Arab man who never lived in Africa, Muhammad peace be upon him was Arab in every sense of the word. Now if Wesley wants to say the Arabs had some African culture, he gets no argument from me, but when he uses this play on words and says it's a religion with roots in Africa this is where I firmly disagree. The Arab people have close relations with Africans and this is unanimous. Ismaeel peace be upon him had a African mother from Egypt, he learned Arabic from the tribe that migrated to Mecca and lived became the neighbors of his mother and him. Yemen was considered Cush by many foreigners and yemen and Ethiopians both claim Sheba was there Queen, so this isn't contested by me. Just don't say Islam is a religion based from African roots or belief because it's not, it's not even a Arab religion or rooted in Arabic belief, Islam is from Allah for the whole world, it was merely sent down to a Arabic man!
-------------------- Abu Isa Posts: 14 | From: America | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
I agree Arab culture doesnt represent the islamic relgion. And Unfortunately one of the influences of foreign influence of the Quran is taking African allegory and symbolism literally. Ismael historically was not from Africa nor was his mother who was from Misra - not Egypt. The word Misra has been mistranslated as "Egypt" by Greeks because they took over that area during th Hyksos period, but the Misra/Masruh and Mitzraim and Hagar/ Hajar are tribes and place names of ancient and modern Arabia (Yemen and Hejaz). See also Kamal Salibi's, The Bible Came from Arabia.
Islam like all the relgions of the world originally came from God. The people who brought Islam to the world were closely related to people now occupying sub-Saharan Africa. Wesley in fact believes the Arabians founded Egypt in neolithic times, which I question.
Before there was Islam, Christianity or Judaism their was a common root in Sabaeanism. The people who originally worshipped God as Allah, Yahu, etc.
From ancient Saba came the wise men called the Khalidi or Khaldeans, Khasdim or Khashid and the followers of Hud or Yehud, Magii and the Kalani of India to whom they were supposedly related (Megasthenes and Callisthenes).. But when the Prophet, PBUH, said there was one God. He meant these names celebrate the ONE God. That is my belief based upon who the early Arabians were and what the Prophet said of Sabeanism.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Again don't you think it is odd that it seems most of these migrations occurred before Islam?
yeah that is real odd that inhabitants not from the continent of africa migrated there before islaam. that strikes a big doubt about west africans (who by the way carry historical custodians called jeli). it is very impossible for some of their ancestors(zaghawa) to have came from the arabian peninsula and mixed with some of their other garamante-koromante-Ikaradan Teda-Krit, Ikaradan, Haratin, Koroma, Wakore, Gor'an, Wangara ancestors. i mean just because groups like the beja and zaghawa and tuareg and tibbu and some nubian groups have a bedouin lifestyle the real one(desert) does not mean that they traveled in the arabat. u know that place that the arabs got their name from. onmy if people just re-read the boast of the sudan over the bidhaan. aljahiz says in the addressment that he withheld the info of the sudaan(black nations) FROM A LETTER HE HAD WROTE CONCERNING THE BOAST OF THE PURE ARABS OVER THE MIXED ARABS FOR A REASON he addresses this near the end of his treatise of teh boast of the sudaan in which he says that the arabs stand with the sudaan(black nations)by virtue of the hadeeth of the arabian illiterate prophet alhi slm "i was sent to every black and red" he goes on to say that the blacks would be the first recievers of the message over the reds. unquote this can be seen in the fact that the arabs were dark skinned and the two places of hijrah were habesha and medina in which both inhabitants will be dark and that the only non quraishi dialect speaking king to embrace islam was from a dark skinned nation habesha. he says that the boast is for the blacks and the arabs regardless if they like it or not. he says that the prophet of god looked at the world as such black or red and that nobody escapes this discription and that no one would agree that uthe arabs are red like the khorosaan, perians, turks, greeks, romans, spaniards, saqalibah, and franj. he says that hajar the mother of the arabs was from the qibt and they are from the sudaan(of the black nations).
1. Specific quotes about these ruling classes being "mixed" marki mark most of the ruling classes in the sudaan(black nations are mixed with other nations)this is how they become huge in number. go ask any knowledgable african about his ethnic group. i was speaking with a ghanian and he was telling me how da-gambe are related to hausa. he himself said that it is odd how an african can go places far in the continent and find words and culture similiar to their own. this is because people have been moving for better lifestyle for a grip and mixed or created different styles. jahiz speaks of this when he says the zanj are closer to the habesh than the adnan to the qahtan. he says there is no argument just because teh sudaan speaks different language they are all one and that adnan labguage has nothing to do with qahtan. another thing that makes the subject matter difficult for students is constant time line jump of pre islaam to islaamic conquest. jawad ali says this in his book history of the arabs before islaam when the arabs conqured rome and perisan territory they intermarried with the locals of course and stopped dealing with the other black nations and naturally picked up the habits of the conqured nations in which dislike for black skin was normal until this day. this is a normal habit for red nations. this is easily seen in blacks from red nations and those from black nations. the mentality is not the same. in morocco i hear nigger remarks all the time. blacky, sahrawi, azzi, aswad. the same thing because most of the inhabitants are red and that is how they roll. all the way to iraaq. they are mostly red but the more u go south near the black nations this does not exist because most of the people are of black complexion of course. the arabic is also purer and is not corrpted with foriegn words. teh sudaanic nations also use really old arabic words that are only found in the ancient arabic dictionaries. only black nations use black red yellow and green color schemes while this is very rare in teh red nations. teh culture is generally the same in the south from teh maghreb to teh mashriq. this is why assyrians, egyptians,jews,greeks,and romans called all the people south or in the peninsula kush or ethiopian or indians or arabs. they all had teh same connotation even well into the euro conquest of the carib islands when christo called the natives what? indians yemenis fulani woman we know they were not the same but to other nations they did not distinguish these people like no non british isler distinguishs between an irishman from a scotsman from a welsh or englishman. to outsiders it will be hard to distinguish. northern egyptians and n.lybians and n.tunisians and n.maghrebis are really reds and have a culture very similiar to southern euros. their accent is teh same just like a darfurian has an accent very similiar to a senegelese and not his more eastern countrymen like the beja or rashaida. the khadhraa(people of the north)as i call them have spanish, berber, french, german italian words. u will have to be on the ground to actually see these things.
quote:Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam
there is specific instructions from a statement of the prophet (nisaa'e) he says "leave the habesha alone as long as they leave u alone" this is why places like russia and west africa were not conqured by war except by good islamic manners and intermarriage and business and good citizenship and truthfulness. most of the callers to islaam in these places were native to the land. this is because the first 3 generations of muslims were more knowledable and closer to the prophets time and were not corrupted that much. teh companions were told they would counquer rome and persia. henceforth the contemporary arab countries are really the former roman and persian countries along with its people who are the mawali of the arabs so in arab culture a mawali has allegiance to teh tribe and since the arabs transfered from tribes to nations the people became arabs because of their service to the ruling class.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam
there is specific instructions from a statement of the prophet (nisaa'e) he says "leave the habesha alone as long as they leave u alone" this is why places like russia and west africa were not conqured
Oh my God! This is just another convenient way to play down the power of these empires. In some manner or another people have a tendency for doing this
Is this due to some statement in the Koran or from Mohamed, or is it due to this "that the Arabs abrupt stop was caused solely and exclusively by the superb military resistance of the Christian Nubians."
"The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam" by David Ayalon
The absolutely unambiguous evidence and unanimous agree of the early Muslim sources is that the Arabs abrupt stop was caused solely and exclusively by the superb military resistance of the Christian Nubians. That is what I call the Nubian Dam. The array of those early sources includes the two most important chronicles of early Islam, al-Tabari (d. 926) and al-Yaqubi (d. 905); the two best extant books on the Muslim conquests, al-Baladhuri (d. 892( and Ibn al-A tham al-Kufi (d. 926); the most central encyclopedic work of al-Masudi (d.956); and the two best early sources dedicated specifically to Egypt, Ibn Abd al-Hakim (d. 871) and al-Kindi (961).
On page 19 he quotes Al-Masudi The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)
Bellow on page 20:
This act carries a lot of weight for one cannot see any reason for the Arabs to praise the Nubians so highly, along with their admission of their own failure in the field of battle. At the same time it is a great tribute to the objectivity in the case of the Muslim sources, and it also enhances considerably the chances of the reliability of their accounts, at least about the Muslim expansion in other fronts, and perhaps much more beyond that. .
3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, Umar b Abd al- Aziz (Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives)
quote:In 1811 Mohammed Ali, a high ranking Albanian army officer serving the Ottoman Empire ousted the Governor of Egypt and appointed himself ruler. He remained nominally under Ottoman authority and was carefully observed by the British, who were determined to strengthen their position in North Africa. To begin with, Mohammed Ali pursued an independent domestic and foreign policy.
"Egypt may now almost be said to form part of Europe. It is on the high road to the Far East. It can never cease to be an object of interest to all the powers of Europe, and especially to England…"....
In 1820, with the encouragement of Britain, Mohammed Ali invaded Sudan in search of slaves and to keep his army occupied. The Funj sultanate was deposed. Southern Sudan was devastated and the Dinka still refer to the invasion as 'The time when the earth was spoilt'. Sudan was now under Egyptian rule.
"Unnatural and Ever Prejudicial: Racial and Colonial Hierarchies in 19th Century Zanzibar" By Dyer, Jeffery
Page 60 One sailor said that the sultan of Zanzibar was:
quote:never was a man so falsely represented or so little understood as this petty Prince. In England we hear of his munificence, his power whereas he is merely upheld in the shadow of authority by the countenance of the English.
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: it is very impossible for some of their ancestors(zaghawa) to have came from the arabian
The reason we are so quick to associate Zaghawa with Arabs is because they are "a conquering and superior race". This designation was normally applied to the Zulus but this would even more properly apply to Zaghawa who cannot be compared to Tuaregs. Tuaregs are cool they acted as the henchmen of the Sudan. Ibn Khaldun talked about Takedda being subject to Mali "as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the veiled people".
This is why I am so fervently opposed to the Arab ruling class idea which as my post above shows is a product of European imagination and active manipulation. They actively created this idea as a counterpart to the Hamitic and Bantu race theories and they created it as support of their eugenics ideas too. Again the evidence is very clear that European colonialists wanted to create "Arab" ruling classes
The distortions of history blind people from looking into south to north influence and migrations
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him...
page 98 by Ibn Khaldun talks about Takedda and the rest of the lands of the "veiled people"
In the year 1353, in the days of sultan Abul 'Inan [of Morocco], I went to Biskara on royal business and there encountered the ambassador of the ruler of Takedda at the residence of Yusof al-Muzani, emir of Biskara. He told me about the prosperous state of this city and the continual passage of wayfares and said: "This year there passed through out city on the way to Mali a caravan of merchants from the east containing 12,000 camels." Another [informant] has told me that this is a yearly even. his country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the veiled people
Bellow are references to "a conquering and superior race"
quote:Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: if people just re-read the boast of the sudan over the bidhaan. aljahiz says in the addressment that he withheld the info of the sudaan(black nations) FROM A LETTER HE HAD WROTE CONCERNING THE BOAST OF THE PURE ARABS OVER THE MIXED ARABS FOR A REASON he addresses this near the end of his treatise of teh boast of the sudaan in which he says that the arabs stand with the sudaan(black nations)by virtue of the hadeeth of the arabian illiterate prophet alhi slm "i was sent to every black and red" he goes on to say that the blacks would be the first recievers of the message over the reds.
Please tell me if I'm wrong but I think Jahiz is only recording the opinions of other people. He is talking about their boasts not his own and one of their boasts was that the Arabs resemble the Sudan. If the Arabs spread throughout the land of the Sudan how could the Arabs merely resemble the Sudan? If the Arabs resemble the Sudan it is because of migrations and conquests moving northward and this occurred since the most ancient of times
dana marniche what do you think?
quote:Originally posted by Original_Womb/man: why would anyone doubt that what we know as the Middle East could not have been the true origins of the Blackman/woman?
But if the Arabs merely resemble the Sudan then how could the "Middle East" be the birth place of Blackman/Woman? He also said that he wrote about pure Arabs while not mentioning the "boasts of the Sudan". So even pure Arabs merely resemble the Sudan? Of course the translation could be flawed
quote:that you read my treatise (kitab) on the refutation of the pure Arabs to those of mixed parentage,....But I did not mention in it anything about the boasts of the Sudan. So know, - may Allah preserve you – that I postponed that intentionally. And you mentioned that you would like me to write to you the boasts of the Sudan....
....Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us. .....
....And this is all that came to my mind about what the blacks could be proud about
posted
Abdul karem - you said - "1. Specific quotes about these ruling classes being "mixed" marki mark most of the ruling classes in the sudaan(black nations are mixed with other nations)this is how they become huge in number. go ask any knowledgable african about his ethnic group. i was speaking with a ghanian and he was telling me how da-gambe are related to hausa. he himself said that it is odd how an african can go places far in the continent and find words and culture similiar to their own. this is because people have been moving for better lifestyle for a grip and mixed or created different styles. jahiz speaks of this when he says the zanj are closer to the habesh than the adnan to the qahtan. he says there is no argument just because teh sudaan speaks different language they are all one and that adnan labguage has nothing to do with qahtan. another thing that makes the subject matter difficult for students is constant time line jump of pre islaam to islaamic conquest. jawad ali says this in his book history of the arabs before islaam when the arabs conqured rome and perisan territory they intermarried with the locals of course and stopped dealing with the other black nations and naturally picked up the habits of the conqured nations in which dislike for black skin was normal until this day. this is a normal habit for red nations. this is easily seen in blacks from red nations and those from black nations. the mentality is not the same. in morocco i hear nigger remarks all the time. blacky, sahrawi, azzi, aswad...."
which is exactly what I was trying to say so why were you arguing with me in the first place.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: which is exactly what I was trying to say so why were you arguing with me in the first place.
abdulkarem3 was talking to me. Again my argument has been that there seems to be a historical movement northward even after Islam rather than the other way around as seen in "The Nubian Dam"
One would assume that things would have become more north to south after Islam. This makes the idea of ruling classes mixed with Arabs throughout Africa seem all the more improbable
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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marki mark no excuses are even intended. you have to listen carefully because you re looking at this thing through a a veil called translations, lack of education of arab culture pre-islamic and islamic, and etc. the territory of aswan and south to the 2nd cataract was nobatian territory which is known that theyi were allied heavily to the byzantine world. infact all of the north eastern countries were part of the greco-christian world. they helped each other and allied loosely with each other and relied on each others trade. rome lent aksum some soldiers and some ships to increase the army and spread christianity in the arab world. remember the aksumites were asked by the byzantium ruler to police yemen because of the CHRISTIAn massacre that took place. this is no different when the western world makes a big hoopla about their citizens in other countries and then wants to send your boy chuck norris. anyway, the point is the nobatian territory existed as an annexed state to the aksum rulers and before that it is assumed that the state was founded by nobatae by the help of byzantum rulers to keep out the blemmyes. when the arab muslims marched into the territory which is not a heavy populated territory it had came under the control of christian makuria . this territory(1st-2nd cataract) which is in egypt today has allways been an area of dispute. i beleive these are the original wawat areas in which the egyptians include in their writing. so if the arabs went into deep southern egypt they would naturally assume these are people who have not acceptd the new ruler of egypt when in fact the area never was ran like that. the arabs were never accustomed to having states and countries and confederations within the exceptin of the tribal confederaions. the early generations followed orders only. they were not doing anyting except that what their prophet told them. "Abu Dharr reported Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) as saying: You would soon conquer egypt and that is a land which is known (as the land of al-qirat). So when you conquer it, treat its inhabitants well. For there lies upon you the responsibility because of blood-tie or relationship of marriage (with them)." this is what was told to them by the prophet alahi slm so naturally they expected the territory of nubia. do u not notice that the arab areas that were conquered are exactly who rome and persia ruled "Abu Huraira reported that Allh's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: (Khusrau king of Persia) would die and Qaisar (Ceasar King of rome) would die; there would be no Qaisar after him, but, by one in Whose Hand is my life, you would spend their treasures in the cause of Allaah. " i dont see how thisis down playing anybody. the first generations were given orders and following them was expected. they were pushed back because the christian army was to strong. it does not matter because they took the place by other means.
quote:One would assume that things would have become more north to south after Islam. This makes the idea of ruling classes mixed with Arabs throughout Africa seem all the more improbable
y? the islamic movement is exactly what it is. ISLAMIC. for islam about islam and nothing but islam. y r u trying to interpret moves that was already accomplished. the point is to spread islam by practicing it's tenets. marriage bonds between ruling classes are exactly what they are and have nothiing to do with islam spreading unless it helps islaam. oduduwa who yoruba say is from the jazirat married into the indiginees to form the yoruba and its sub-branches then that does not have anything to do with anything except the yoruba nation. it does not make them exempt from hearing the message. if the quraishi arabs fought their own blood relatives to spread islaam how is someone with less blood ties going to help. the issue i have with orientilist like you is the fact that if the arabs who are the most skeptical when it comes to arab bloodlines since time immoral never denied these peoples their claim and yes they have denied many claims to people who claimed to have come from a certain line then y would a dude who is straight from going to relate info from the speakers perspective. what does not sound right to you is not because it is not right but because you are not raised nor experienced in such culture to make it make sense. being an outsider raises eyebrows because regardless how objective u r being u still have a background in something other than the target group. u have to get in the field and live with teh people and talk their language and be bersed in their ways and practice their religion. other than that u will allways be an 3JAM and that is for real.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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indians 
going to relate info from the speakers perspective. what does not sound right to you is not because it is not right but because you are not raised nor experienced in such culture to make it make sense. being an outsider raises eyebrows because regardless how objective u r being u still have a background in something other than the target group. u have to get in the field and live with teh people and talk their language and be bersed in their ways and practice their religion. other than that u will allways be an 3JAM and that is for real.
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