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Author Topic: Cult of Achilles in the Euxine
alTakruri
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Snippets from the header titled paper by GUY HEDREEN

quote:

The significance of Scythia lies, I think, in a different aspect of the story of Achilles: in

the relationship between Achilles and his archenemy, Memnon of Ethiopia. Just as the

translation of Achilles to the white island was narrated in the Aithiopis, so too the story of

Memnon was included in the epic according to the summary by Proklos.81 Memnon, king of

the Ethiopians, came to Troy to fight on the side of the Trojans. After slaying Antilochos,

the companion of Achilles, Memnon was slain by Achilles. Eos, the mother of Memnon,

obtained immortality for her, son from Zeus. It is not stated in the summary, but it is known

from other sources that Eos brought her son back to Ethiopia.82 There are several similari-

ties between the stories of Achilles and Memnon in the Aithiopis. Both warriors came to

Troy with Hephaistian armor but were killed in battle.83 Their mothers, who were god-

desses, carried the heroes away from Troy and arranged for them to be immortalized.84

Memnon was returned to the land of the Ethiopians, literally "burnt faces", and Achilles

was taken to the white island.85

Achilles and Memnon seem to be conceived of as pendants to, or mirror images of, one

another.86 In this respect the localization of the white island within the region of Scythia

seems significant, because Scythia was the opposite of Ethiopia on the ancient Greek map.

The two countries were thought of as the most extreme northern and southern countries of

the world, as Strabo tells us: "The north extends to the remote confines of Scythia and

Celtica, and the south to the remote confines of Ethiopia, and the difference between these

two extremes is very great ... indeed, they are, in a sense, the antipodes of each other."87

Strabo also wrote: "[Ephoros] says that if we divide the regions of the heavens and of the

earth into four parts, the Indians will occupy that part from which Apeliotes blows, the

Ethiopians the part from which Notos blows, the Celts the part on the west, and the Scy-

thians the part from which the north wind blows."88

quote:


85 For the black/white opposition compare the myth told in connection with the cult of Dionysos Melanai-

gis at Eleutherai about a duel between two warriors whose names were Melanthos and Xanthos, "black man"

and "blond man". For the sources see P. Vidal-Naquet, The Black Hunter, A. Szegedy-Maszak, trans.,

Baltimore/London 1986, pp. 109-110. I wish to thank Froma Zeitlin for pointing out this myth to me. For

another view of the poetic significance of the name Leuke see G. Nagy, "Phaethon, Sappho's Phaon, and the

White Rock of Leukas," HSCP 77, 1973 (pp. 137-177), pp. 137-148.

86 Cf. Rohde, p. 65; A. Dihle, Homer-Probleme, Opladen 1970, pp. 17-18.

87 Strabo, 1.1.13 (C7). The word antipodes specifically refers to India and Iberia, but the sense of the

passage suggests that it applies also to Ethiopia and Scythia. Cf. also Strabo, 1.2.27 (C33): "just as [the ancient

Greeks] embraced the inhabitants of the known countries of the north under the single designation 'Scythians'

. . . just so, in accordance with the opinion of the ancient Greeks, all the countries in the south which lie on

Okeanos were called 'Ethiopia'." (Trans. Jones.)

88 Strabo, 1.2.28 (C33). Ethiopia and Scythia were considered to be opposites of each other in many ways

and in this respect as well may have seemed appropriate for archrivals. See F. Hartog, Le miroir d'Herodote,

Paris 1980, pp. 33-38, who is concerned to show that the opposition of Scythia and Egypt, including Ethiopia,

underlies Herodotos' Scythian logos. The opposition of Scythia and the south, including Egypt, Libya, and

Ethiopia, is extended to climate and even to the physiques of the inhabitants in the Hippocratic text On Airs,

Waters, and Places 18-19. See G. E. R. Lloyd, Polarity and Analogy, Cambridge 1966, p. 22; F. M. Snowden,

Blacks in Antiquity, Cambridge, Mass. 1970, pp. 171-175.

Anybody know any more about any of that?
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Clyde Winters
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To the Greco-Romans Ethiopia and Scythia were not considered opposites of each other.


The entire premise of this article: Black vs White is not supported by the terms Ethiop and xanthos. Ethiop does=Black face, but xanthos does not mean ‘blond’, xanthos= ‘brown’.


 -

Homer was Xanthos: a Black Man. The leading characters in his books were Negro/Black men and women.


 -


Aeschylus describes Epaphos as "swarthy of hue" or dark skinned and that he originally lived in Africa.

There are many light skinned Africans who have never mixed with Europeans. Apollo is chrysaeros 'bearing a golden sword'

Artemis is eustephanos which has no relation to fair


Neptune is kyanochaites 'bluish or Blackish like dark deep waves of the ocean

Achilles is xanthos 'brown'


 -

As a result, Homer is talking about different black or negro ethnicities, who were either light brown (xanthos) or dark brown (ethiop). Xanthos and Ethiop represent the idea of the two Kushites living in the south Ethiopia, and Asia, Scythia.

The Greco-Romans, as noted in the writings of Rawlinson, recognized Scythia as Asian Kush, and the ‘Scythians' were recognized as Kushites.

Chambers wrote:

“Ephorus ,too (405B.C.)seems to have had a great impression of the power of the Ethiopians, since he names in the east, the Indians—in the south the Ethiopians—in the west, the Celts—in the north, the Scythians, as the most mighty and numrous people of the known earth. Already in Strabo’s time, however, their ancient power had gone for an indefinite period, and the Negro states found themselves, after Meroe had ceased to be a religious capital …”

http://books.google.com/books?id=L10MAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&dq=black+celts&hl=en&ei=gVdwTMHhN8qmnQe5zLHmBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=black%20ce lts&f=false


The Ephorus Map of the Ethiopian nations

 -

The Ephorus map, the Classical authors and writers familiar with the Classics like Rawlinson saw the people living in Scythia and Ethiopia (lands below Egypt) as nations founded by Kushites. This makes the premise of article under review as an example of extremes: Blacks in the South and Whites in the north unfounded. To the ancients this was just a fight between two Kushite (black) nations. The present author has been blinded by modern populations living in Europe today, as the representatives of the former xanthos (brown) population, instead of the Indo-european population which presently live in the modern countries the Greeks called: “Scythia” who consider themselves to be 'white'..


.

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Clyde Winters
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As a result, when Strabo wrote:”The north extends to the remote confines of Scythia and Celtica, and the south to the remote confines of Ethiopia, and the difference between these two extremes is very great ... indeed, they are, in a sense, the antipodes of each other." He was using antipodes as a geographical descriptor, not anthropological identifier of ethnic groups.


quote:



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search For other uses, see Antipode (disambiguation).

This map shows the antipodes of each point on the Earth's surface—the points where the blue and yellow overlap are land antipodes—most land has its antipodes in the ocean. This map uses the Lambert azimuthal equal-area projection. The yellow areas can be considered to be opposite reflections of the blue areas but on the inner "surface" of the globe of the Earth
The same map, from the perspective of the Western Hemisphere. Here the blue areas can be considered to be opposite reflections of the yellow areas but on the inner "surface" of the globe of the EarthIn geography, the antipodes (/ænˈtɪpədiːz/; from Greek: ἀντίποδες,[1] from anti- "opposed" and pous "foot") of any place on Earth is the point on the Earth's surface which is diametrically opposite to it. Two points that are antipodal /ænˈtɪpədəl/ to each other are connected by a straight line running through the centre of the Earth.

In the Northern Hemisphere, "the Antipodes" is often used to refer to Australia and New Zealand, and "Antipodeans" to their inhabitants.[2] Geographically the antipodes of Britain and Ireland are in the Pacific Ocean, south of New Zealand. This gave rise to the name of the Antipodes Islands of New Zealand, which are close to the antipodes of London at about 50° S 179° E. The antipodes of Australia are in the North Atlantic Ocean, while parts of Spain, Portugal, and Morocco are antipodal to New Zealand.

All together, between 4%[3] and 27%[4] of land is antipodal to land, depending on how tidal flows are measured.[5] The largest antipodal land masses are the Malay Archipelago, antipodal to the Amazon Basin and adjoining Andean ranges; east China and Mongolia, antipodal to Chile and Argentina; and Greenland and the Canadian Arctic Archipelago, antipodal to East Antarctica.




Strabo’s mention of Ephorus makes it clear he was talking about Kushites who belonged to the same ethnicity, not Black and White ethnic groups.

Strabo also wrote: "[Ephoros] says that if we divide the regions of the heavens and of the earth into four parts, the Indians will occupy that part from which Apeliotes blows, the Ethiopians the part from which Notos blows, the Celts the part on the west, and the Scythians the part from which the north wind blows.


 -

Ephorus’s map of the Kushite nations and dicussion of the Kushites indicates that while there was a geographical antipodes, the people belonged to the “same nationality”.

.

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the lioness,
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Also "Caucus" is a corruption of Cushcus
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mena7
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Lioness say: Also "Caucus" is a corruption of Cushcus.

mena: I hope that is a good info, if Caucasus realy mean Kushcus that's mean the original inhabitant of the Caucasus region were Kushite.

--------------------
mena

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Tukuler
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Ptolemy Tetrabiblos 2.2
explicitly states Scythians
are white (leukoi) and are
exemplars of the northern
extreme just as the black
Ethiopians represent the
southern extreme, both
being outside his "norm,"
our northern hemisphere's
middle latitudes.

quote:


... those from the equator to the summer tropic,
... have black skins ...
we call them by the general name Ethiopians.

. . .

Those who live under the more northern parallels,
... they are white in complexion, ...
We call these men, too, by a general name, Scythians


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2A*.html#2


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Clyde Winters
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The Scythians of Ptolomy’s time has nothing to do with the founders of ancient civilizations in Iran/Mesopotamia.

The Babylonians and Akkadians (Sumerians) were usually referred to as Scythians by Rawlinson and other researchers as noted by Kramer The Sumerians, pg.20 :

http://books.google.com/books?id=iY9xp4pLp88C&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=akkadians+scythians&source=bl&ots=Ai-we-ggRV&sig=gGDAgyFIqg7KcfztQ2a1-2S7gq0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ednEUpjsHKrlyQH2qIHACw& ved=0CCkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=akkadians%20scythians&f=false

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ptolemy Tetrabiblos 2.2
explicitly states Scythians
are white (leukoi) and are
exemplars of the northern
extreme just as the black
Ethiopians represent the
southern extreme, both
being outside his "norm,"
our northern hemisphere's
middle latitudes.

quote:


... those from the equator to the summer tropic,
... have black skins ...
we call them by the general name Ethiopians.

. . .

Those who live under the more northern parallels,
... they are white in complexion, ...
We call these men, too, by a general name, Scythians


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2A*.html#2


These people were Saka--not the original Scythians who were black.

The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, ed. and tr., vol. 3, Book 4, Chapters 2-36, 46-82. New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885. http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Scythians.html


"According to the account which the Scythians themselves give, they are the youngest of all nations. Their tradition is as follows. A certain Targitaus was the first man who ever lived in their country, which before his time was a desert without inhabitants. He was a child- I do not believe the tale, but it is told nevertheless- of Jove and a daughter of the Borysthenes. Targitaus, thus descended, begat three sons, Leipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais, who was the youngest born of the three. While they still ruled the land, there fell from the sky four implements, all of gold- a plough, a yoke, a battle-axe, and a drinking-cup. The eldest of the brothers perceived them first, and approached to pick them up; when lo! as he came near, the gold took fire, and blazed. He therefore went his way, and the second coming forward made the attempt, but the same thing happened again. The gold rejected both the eldest and the second brother. Last of all the youngest brother approached, and immediately the flames were extinguished; so he picked up the gold, and carried it to his home. Then the two elder agreed together, and made the whole kingdom over to the youngest born.

6. From Leipoxais sprang the Scythians of the race called Auchatae; from Arpoxais, the middle brother, those known as the Catiari and Traspians; from Colaxais, the youngest, the Royal Scythians, or Paralatae. All together they are named Scoloti, after one of their kings: the Greeks, however, call them Scythians.

 -


7. Such is the account which the Scythians give of their origin. They add that from the time of Targitaus, their first king, to the invasion of their country by Darius, is a period of one thousand years, neither less nor more. The Royal Scythians guard the sacred gold with most especial care, and year by year offer great sacrifices in its honour. At this feast, if the man who has the custody of the gold should fall asleep in the open air, he is sure (the Scythians say) not to outlive the year. His pay therefore is as much land as he can ride round on horseback in a day. As the extent of Scythia is very great, Colaxais gave each of his three sons a separate kingdom, one of which was of ampler size than the other two: in this the gold was preserved. Above, to the northward of the farthest dwellers in Scythia, the country is said to be concealed from sight and made impassable by reason of the feathers which are shed abroad abundantly. The earth and air are alike full of them, and this it is which prevents the eye from obtaining any view of the region.

8. Such is the account which the Scythians give of themselves".

Homer makes it clear that these whites called Saka or Skuths had a short history.The history of the Saka began long after the decline of Black Scythian civilizations associated with the Sumerians, Akkadians, and Elamites.These Saka lived originally in the Steppes, and were forced out of Iran by the Medes.

Hedreen's idea that Achilles and Memnon, who were black or negro represented the idea of black and white ethnic groups is ludicris. It is clear that Hedreen made a mistake and associated ancient Kushite-Scyths, with the Saka or Skuth who were named Scythian by modern Eurocentrist when they translated Greco-Roman texts.

.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
Lioness say: Also "Caucus" is a corruption of Cushcus.

mena: I hope that is a good info, if Caucasus realy mean Kushcus that's mean the original inhabitant of the Caucasus region were Kushite.

Mena I would like to see lioness' source for "Cushcus". We do know that Euxine relates to "dark[ness, or black]".

I found that
quote:

[Euxine is the] archaic name for the Black Sea, from L. Pontus Euxinus, from Gk. Pontos Euxenios, lit. "the hospitable sea," a euphemism for Pontos Axeinos, "the inhospitable sea." According to Room, The O.Pers. name for the sea was akhshaena, lit. "dark," ....

The term akhshaena, suggest that this area was called "Kushana".The original name for the Black Sea was probably ' Kush Sea'.

.

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Tukuler
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Scythians in the OP
are delimited to
Trojan War times
(~1300 BCE?) and
later and it no
where says anything
about Mesopotamia
nor Iran which are
just non-sequitor
red herrings to
distract from the
actual claim of
northern not mid
latitude peoples.


I will stick to what
actual Greek writers
near the time had to
say about who the
Scythians were and
how they looked.

So far I find nothing
directly from any of them
stating that Scythians
were anything other
than a far northern
white complexioned
people much less
a branch of black
complexioned Aithiops.

I appreciate primary
documentation where
I can go check the
spelling for myself
to avoid confusion
of terms.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Scythians in the OP
are delimited to
Trojan War times
(~1300 BCE?) and
later and it no
where says anything
about Mesopotamia
nor Iran which are
just non-sequitor
red herrings to
distract from the
actual claim of
northern not mid
latitude peoples.


I will stick to what
actual Greek writers
near the time had to
say about who the
Scythians were and
how they looked.

So far I find nothing
directly from any of them
stating that Scythians
were anything other
than a far northern
white complexioned
people much less
a branch of black
complexioned Aithiops.

I appreciate primary
documentation where
I can go check the
spelling for myself
to avoid confusion
of terms.

If we accept the writings of the Greco-Romans the Trojans were never considered Scythians. According to Herodotus the Scythian nation was young and did not exist back to the era of the Trojan War.

As a result, there is no way you can say Greco-Roman sources declare that the Trojans were "whites" or identified by Homer as Scythians. Homer never mentions the scythians in his writings.[Here]

Homer never identified the Trojans as either 'white' or 'Scythians'.

The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, ed. and tr., vol. 3, Book 4, Chapters 2-36, 46-82. New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885. http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Scythians.html


"According to the account which the Scythians themselves give, they are the youngest of all nations. Their tradition is as follows. A certain Targitaus was the first man who ever lived in their country, which before his time was a desert without inhabitants. He was a child- I do not believe the tale, but it is told nevertheless- of Jove and a daughter of the Borysthenes. Targitaus, thus descended, begat three sons, Leipoxais, Arpoxais, and Colaxais, who was the youngest born of the three. While they still ruled the land, there fell from the sky four implements, all of gold- a plough, a yoke, a battle-axe, and a drinking-cup. The eldest of the brothers perceived them first, and approached to pick them up; when lo! as he came near, the gold took fire, and blazed. He therefore went his way, and the second coming forward made the attempt, but the same thing happened again. The gold rejected both the eldest and the second brother. Last of all the youngest brother approached, and immediately the flames were extinguished; so he picked up the gold, and carried it to his home. Then the two elder agreed together, and made the whole kingdom over to the youngest born.

6. From Leipoxais sprang the Scythians of the race called Auchatae; from Arpoxais, the middle brother, those known as the Catiari and Traspians; from Colaxais, the youngest, the Royal Scythians, or Paralatae. All together they are named Scoloti, after one of their kings: the Greeks, however, call them Scythians.

 -


7. Such is the account which the Scythians give of their origin. They add that from the time of Targitaus, their first king, to the invasion of their country by Darius, is a period of one thousand years, neither less nor more. The Royal Scythians guard the sacred gold with most especial care, and year by year offer great sacrifices in its honour. At this feast, if the man who has the custody of the gold should fall asleep in the open air, he is sure (the Scythians say) not to outlive the year. His pay therefore is as much land as he can ride round on horseback in a day. As the extent of Scythia is very great, Colaxais gave each of his three sons a separate kingdom, one of which was of ampler size than the other two: in this the gold was preserved. Above, to the northward of the farthest dwellers in Scythia, the country is said to be concealed from sight and made impassable by reason of the feathers which are shed abroad abundantly. The earth and air are alike full of them, and this it is which prevents the eye from obtaining any view of the region.

8. Such is the account which the Scythians give of themselves".

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Tukuler
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??? Whoever said the Trojans were Scythians?
Since when does the time period of the Trojan
War mean everybody of that period is Trojan?

The OP mentions Scythia in relation to Achilles
the Greek's main hero of the Trojan War and so
per Heedren his "white island" resting place of
Achilles is in Scythia. Heedren makes this
supposition because of the well known north-south,
frigid-tropical, white-black dichotomy.

The actual first notice of Scythia appears in
Hesiod c. 700 BCE. The Trojan War temporal
approximation is only a hypothesis of Heedren
based on fitting Achilles and Memnon into the
mentioned dichotomy. It's plausible but not
proven the "white island" is in Scythia but
I think, as far as the dichotomy goes, it
could just as well be Thrace or Hyperborea
to fit Heedren. Personally I don't know why
this "white island" wouldn't be near west
Aegean Phthia southern Thessaly Achilles'
homeland rather than far off southernmost
Ukraine (Scythia) at the northwest Black
Sea.

In any event there is no escaping Ptolemy's
point blank description of white Scythians.
"Those who live under the more northern parallels,
... they are white in complexion, ...
We call these men, too, by a general name, Scythians"

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2A*.html#2

The Scythian gold bowl from Mike's website
obviously depicts a bearded white person.
While there is no primary written document
that Scythians were an Aithiopian people
there is art from Hesiod's time of people
dressed in Scythian attire. They are Amazon
and beardless "Aithiopian." Whether the
tropical African looking ones painted on
the alabastra are females and part of
the Amazon host or males is not readily
discernible.


Diop in The Cultural Unity of Black Africa
sees 5th century Scythians as "the human
group which remained nearest to the original
state and location of the Indo-Europeans"

Diop also says Saques is the same as Scythians.

As for Amazons in the vicinity of Scythia, and
so dressed as in the alabastron in clothing
appropriate for the climate, Diop mentions
Diodorus' report of Amazons warring on Thrace.
Thrace was a northern pode of the dichotomy.
These Amazons appear to based near Thermodon
River in northern Anatolia south of the Black
Sea.

In their wide ranging battles Amazons were known
to have spared the Ichthyophagous Aithiopians. Is
this reflected in the tropical Africans on the alabastra
garbed the same as the Amazons?

SCYTHIAN _______________________________ ???
 -  -

AMAZONS
 -  -

AITHIOPS
 -

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
??? Whoever said the Trojans were Scythians?
Since when does the time period of the Trojan
War mean everybody of that period is Trojan?

The OP mentions Scythia in relation to Achilles
the Greek's main hero of the Trojan War and so
per Heedren his "white island" resting place of
Achilles is in Scythia. Heedren makes this
supposition because of the well known north-south,
frigid-tropical, white-black dichotomy.

Granted he does not say the Trojans, were Scythians, but placing one of the heroes of the Trojans in Scythia, implies that they too were 'white', allegedly like Achilles.

The fact Heedren makes this supposition indicates that his thesis is wrong since scythia, did not exist until Scythians appear. Thus his location of Achilles "resting place" in Scythia is another example of Eurocentric myth making. if he would have simply compared the Ethiopians and Scythians without mentioning Achilles his paper would have more validity.

.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
the well known north-south,
frigid-tropical, white-black dichotomy.

Clyde is there such a dichotomy or is it Tukuler spin?
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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
the well known north-south,
frigid-tropical, white-black dichotomy.

Clyde is there such a dichotomy or is it Tukuler spin?
We are discussing Heedren's article. The Greeks did compare Scythia and Ethiopia as extremes. My argument is that Heedren's attempt to imply Achilles was the earliest representative of this dichotomy is groundless.

.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

??? Whoever said the Trojans were Scythians?
Since when does the time period of the Trojan
War mean everybody of that period is Trojan?

The OP mentions Scythia in relation to Achilles
the Greek's main hero of the Trojan War and so
per Heedren his "white island" resting place of
Achilles is in Scythia. Heedren makes this
supposition because of the well known north-south,
frigid-tropical, white-black dichotomy.

Granted he does not say the Trojans, were Scythians, but placing one of the heroes of the Trojans in Scythia, implies that they too were 'white', allegedly like Achilles.

The fact Heedren makes this supposition indicates that his thesis is wrong since scythia, did not exist until Scythians appear. Thus his location of Achilles "resting place" in Scythia is another example of Eurocentric myth making. if he would have simply compared the Ethiopians and Scythians without mentioning Achilles his paper would have more validity.

.

Um, Achilles was a Greek hero.
Achilles was not a Trojan hero.

I haven't read Hedreen's entire article.
I can't remember what I was researching
that led me to it, but Memnon drew my
attention. I really don't know anything
about an Achilles cult around the Euxine.

Just from the short OP excerpt I have
problems with some of Hedreen's ideas.
I expressed some of my doubts about a
Scythian location of the "white island."
However some other scholars also make
for Achilles, known to be Thessalonian,
to be a Scythian (see here would post
the page but the PC I'm using uses IE 11).

Also I can find nothing about Eos intering
Memnon in Aethiopia but have read a variety
of proposed burial places.


What you say about Scythians has facts
about it. Scythian can be a vague term
because of the Saka who were east of
the Caspian Sea vs the Greek's generic
concept Scythia (essentially the locale
of modern Odessa) which apparently included
many peoples north of Thrace that were
not even remotely related to the Saka.

I'm really interested in learning more
about Melanthos and Xanthos since I've
never heard of them before Hedreen and
can't find them in Graves.

Xanthos does mean brown but it also can
mean blonde, or at least conferring with
Greek dictionaries do indicate.


No comments on the alabastra?
They seem to hark to the lost
Aithiopis chronicalling exploits
of the Amazon and Aithiop allies
of Troy against the Greeks that
were not in the Iliad.

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Byron Bumper
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BEEP BEEP
SCREECH
KISS CUSS

--------------------
BEEP BEEP SCREECH KISS CUSS

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Tukuler
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Achilles and Memnon archetype white and black heroes bumped for Ibis

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

Ancient Greece certainly knew a black-white dichotomy expressed as Aithiopian and Skythian.
In Homer's Iliad has archetypal heroes for each, Memnon and Achilles. They envisaged skin
colour opposites in head and neck plastic art.

 -

In this example both have ulotrichous hair, a term applied to textures from nappy to tightly
curly and everything in-between hair. Physical features are rather stereotypical emphasizing
the prime characteristics of each stock.

A common theme in many Greek epics is the portrayal of the Greek with the foreigner or familiar with the alien. Note how many Greek stories involve a (usual) Greek hero vs. a foreign enemy or at least anti-hero. In the Iliad for example the Trojans are never described as one-dimensional baddies but rather as foreigners who still display the same familiar endearingly human qualities as the Greeks themselves.

However, all credit to you Tukuler for pointing out this mirroring of characters between Achilles and Memnon! I never noticed it until you brought it up.

quote:

Um, Achilles was a Greek hero.
Achilles was not a Trojan hero.

I haven't read Hedreen's entire article.
I can't remember what I was researching
that led me to it, but Memnon drew my
attention. I really don't know anything
about an Achilles cult around the Euxine.

Just from the short OP excerpt I have
problems with some of Hedreen's ideas.
I expressed some of my doubts about a
Scythian location of the "white island."
However some other scholars also make
for Achilles, known to be Thessalonian,
to be a Scythian (see here would post
the page but the PC I'm using uses IE 11).

Also I can find nothing about Eos intering
Memnon in Aethiopia but have read a variety
of proposed burial places.


What you say about Scythians has facts
about it. Scythian can be a vague term
because of the Saka who were east of
the Caspian Sea vs the Greek's generic
concept Scythia (essentially the locale
of modern Odessa) which apparently included
many peoples north of Thrace that were
not even remotely related to the Saka.

I'm really interested in learning more
about Melanthos and Xanthos since I've
never heard of them before Hedreen and
can't find them in Graves.

Xanthos does mean brown but it also can
mean blonde, or at least conferring with
Greek dictionaries do indicate.


No comments on the alabastra?
They seem to hark to the lost
Aithiopis chronicalling exploits
of the Amazon and Aithiop allies
of Troy against the Greeks that
were not in the Iliad.

The Greek words xanthos and melanthos are descriptives of hair color with the former meaning blonde while the latter is jet black. When blonde hair does occur in Greece it is usually of the darker variety or "dirty blonde" which is essentially a light brown color. No doubt, Achilles is contrasted to Memnon as a blonde "leukos" or white man vs. a black-haired "melanchros" or black man. The Greeks like many ancient Europeans held a belief in sacred islands that were a meeting place between the divine and mortal planes. These sacred islands were said to be paradises where gravely injured can be healed or even the dead can be resurrected. The Leuko Nesos (White Island) was said to be located in the Scythian side that is northern side of the Pontus (Black Sea), while Memnon was taken back to his homeland Aethiopia. Now if we are mirror these legendary heroes more, one could postulate that Memnon was also taken to a divine island as well. Perhaps an island somewhere in the Persian Gulf??

 -

^ Mind you there are only a few islands in the Black Sea while there are many more in the Persian Gulf. Of course Memnon being transported to an island is a stretch but no surprise if that was the case. The Gulf is further east than the Black Sea since this is where Eos (Dawn) would reach prior to the other region.

Both heroes were born of goddesses. Achilles mother Thetis was a nereid or sea goddess whose cult seemed to have been more prominent in the Archaic Period. Memnon's mother Eos seems to correspond with the dawn goddess Aya of Babylonia. I'm not sure about Susa though.

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