Al-Azhar University Scholars Argue over the Legitimacy of Female Circumcision Practiced in Egypt
Following are excerpts from a TV debate between Egyptian scholars from Al-Azhar University on the issue of female circumcision. The debate aired on Al-Arabiya TV on February 12, 2007.
Mahmoud Ashur: Female circumcision is a traditional custom, and not a religious act. All the hadiths that deal with female circumcision are unreliable. Moreover, the hadith cited by those who support circumcision calls to refrain from it more than it calls to perform it.
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Female circumcision is not part of Islam. Rather, it is a traditional custom. Under no circumstances should we follow this custom, because it leaves a deep wound in the souls of these girls, which has a psychological, emotional, and social impact on their lives. Female circumcision does a lot of damage. This damage is harmful, and it shatters the soul of the girl. Therefore, it is absolutely forbidden to perform this custom. No person should do this, because it is harmful and causes damage.
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This is a despicable, ugly, and evil custom. It is performed by a woman who uses inappropriate and non-sterile instruments. She may be passing on to the girl a terrible disease or causing her a wound that never heals, because the person who performs this custom lacks expertise and experience, and does not know how to sterilize the instruments, and therefore, she inflicts terrible diseases upon the girls.
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Muhammad Al-Mussayar: All the jurisprudents, since the advent of Islam and for 14 centuries or more, are in consensus that female circumcision is permitted by Islam. But they were divided with regard to its status in the Shari'a. Some said that female circumcision is required by the Shari'a, just like male circumcision. Some said this is the mainstream practice, while others said it is a noble act. But throughout the history of Islam, nobody has ever said that performing female circumcision is a crime. There has been a religious ruling on this for 14 centuries.
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Mahmoud Ashur: In the days of Jahiliya and in the early days of Islam, the man whose mother would perform this custom was scorned by people who called him "you son of a clitoris cutter." This proves that it was never part of the religion of Islam. As for male circumcision, it is the approved mainstream practice, as determined by Islam and as instructed by the Prophet Muhammad.
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There is no doubt that we must reach agreement on this issue. There must be a decisive view and a resolute decision on this custom especially, because it is evil. When people perform it, they do so out of extreme ignorance, and it has a severe impact on marital life.
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Muhammad Al-Mussayar: First of all, there are reliable hadiths in Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, which support female circumcision. The Prophet Muhammad said: "If a circumcised woman and man have intercourse, they must undergo ablution." Unreliable hadiths do not cancel out the reliable ones. We have unreliable hadiths regarding prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage. Should we abolish prayer and charity just because some hadiths are unreliable? According to some hadiths in Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, "If a circumcised woman and man have intercourse, they must undergo ablution." People would curse one another by saying: "You son of a clit woman" - the son of a non-circumcised woman. The objections to circumcision are illogical and unnatural.
Interviewer: What is the justification for doing this?
Muhammad Al-Mussayar: First of all, allow me... Regarding the claim that the instruments are not sterile – this is the reality and is not part of religious law. If there are dentists who do not sterilize their instruments, should we abolish medical faculties and dental clinics, or should we demand that they rectify the situation? Flawed reality cannot serve as a religious argument. The claim that female circumcision leads to barrenness is not true. The Muslim woman bears more children than any other woman. It is the Western woman who is barren, even though she is not circumcised. Moreover, when one talks about nervous breakdowns... This is considered a day of celebration for the family.
Interviewer: A day of celebration for the family?! Let me begin with the psychological effects. According to some studies, when there is a celebration, and sweets are given to the girl, and then an act is performed in which the girl's flesh is cut off... This makes her lose trust in her family, first of all. This generates an inner problem. As for the medical, physical problem, there is a problem in childbirth. There are lacerations, microbes, deformities – this is what the doctors say.
Muhammad Al-Mussayar: Sterilization is necessary in such cases. Cutting off a part of the human body does not mean a violation of its sanctity. How many human body parts are cut off in plastic surgery, and so on, yet we do not consider this offensive to the woman?
Interviewer: What is the reason for circumcising girls?
Muhammad Al-Mussayar: First of all, the claim that this is a Pharaonic or Jahili practice...
Interviewer: Let's assume that this is a religious requirement...
Muhammad Al-Mussayar: It isn't...
Interviewer: Nevertheless, hypothetically speaking, what is the main reason for this?
Muhammad Al-Mussayar: Some sources said: "Reduce, but do not remove." In other words, it is neither about removing the organ, nor about leaving it. It is a trustworthy Muslim doctor who makes the decision. She decides whether the girl needs it or not. We do not obligate every girl to undergo circumcision. We say it should be left up to the doctor, and she can evaluate the case and determine whether the girl needs circumcision or not.
Interviewer: Why would she need it? Sheik Mahmoud Ashur, would you like to comment? What are the reasons that one could say... Go ahead...
Mahmoud Ashur: If it is left up to the doctor, then it is a custom and not part of the religion.
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Muhammad Al-Mussayar: Female circumcision is no less valid just because it was practiced in Pharaonic times and in the Jahiliya. Islam accepted some customs, which were harmonious with human nature, and rejected others, which contradicted human nature.
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Interviewer: Some studies show that the upbringing at home is the main thing, and that 95 percent of all prostitutes [in Egypt] are circumcised.
Muhammad Al-Mussayar: And 100 percent of the prostitutes in the West are not circumcised, so what is the problem?
posted
I'm a female, and I was circumcised a little over two years ago to correct a problem of a hidden clitoris, I couldn't get enough stimulation to it normally, without going through some uncomfortable maneuvers. I had a friend who had it done and it helped her, so I complained to my GYN about my difficulties. My GYN was hesitant to do it and I had to tell her several times how much trouble I was having reaching orgasm during intercourse because I had such a long hood. Finally I said I would do it myself if she refused. This got her attention and we set up an appointment a few days later and she circumcised me. She had me sign a paper that she was not responsible for any problems caused by the operation and it was at my request. I guess she was protecting herself since so many DR's are being sued if something goes wrong.
The results of the operation were wonderful and I only wish I had known about it sooner.
As far as the hypersensitivity issue, it's more a matter of getting used to the feeling and mentally putting it out of your mind until you have sex.
Kathy (USA)
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I recently had my clitoral hood removed (female circumcision) to improve sensitivity and cleanliness as it was such a long hood. I had some pain during healing, but that has been minimal. Healing has been rapid.
The glans clitoris has slowly increased in size since the operation. The sensitivity is also there and my ability to orgasm has increased be cause of it.
I think that all women should consider have their hoods removed as it would aid in cleanliness of the area and grreatly improving orgasm! I'm totally satisfied!
Female circumcision (i.e. foreskin removal) is an operation not widely known by females - and usually not widely known by doctors who may be called upon to practice it. Contrary to the recurrent idea in sex manuals today, most females, even in Western countries, had very little idea about their anatomy until the 1950s, and only a minority had any idea what a clitoris was, what it could do for them, and - last but not least - that it had to be cleaned. A good number of female friends whom I've discussed this with have found to have adherences that were extremly unpleasant, causing itching, redness, soreness - just like under the foreskin of uncircumcised boys.
Based on the above, it would seem easy to follow my advice. However, there has been some debate on whether circumcising clitoral hoods did not, in some cases, cause a problem in women - i.e., making the sensitivity of their clits impossible to control. The clitoris is not a penis. It does not thrust to orgasm, is attached to the belly, moves back and forth in the slit. It can be irritated easily (a phenomenon reported for a while by all freshly circumcised women), but certainly bring greater orgasms when it is totally naked. The few cases we see, however, like mine, are insufficient to form a real idea of the benefits of circumcision in females. Obviously for me it did provide many benefits. But it may not for you. I do not know enough circumcised women to form a wide sweeping opinion on this.
Probably one of the best ways to deal with this subject would be to have a clitoral exam when a female reaches a certain sexual maturity (around her twenties). Gynecological exams before then are usually an unpleasant, and sometimes traumatic experience for a girl. The doctor would not only check the vagina, the rectum, and the cervix, but also the sensitivity of the clitoris, the degree to which the hood adheres to the tip, and whether it would be beneficial or not to have a hood removal - which takes 15 minutes under local anesthesia, at the most. It would also be an ideal time to discuss clitoral hygeine with women, and the need for regular clitoral hood retraction and washing. This would enable women to add to the sexual pleasure - giving them greater sexual confidence. It would also give women a basis for which to decide if they believe they would benefit from female circumcision, as I have.
Cindy (USA)
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: I'm a female, and I was circumcised a little over two years ago to correct a problem of a hidden clitoris, I couldn't get enough stimulation to it normally, without going through some uncomfortable maneuvers. I had a friend who had it done and it helped her, so I complained to my GYN about my difficulties. My GYN was hesitant to do it and I had to tell her several times how much trouble I was having reaching orgasm during intercourse because I had such a long hood. Finally I said I would do it myself if she refused. This got her attention and we set up an appointment a few days later and she circumcised me. She had me sign a paper that she was not responsible for any problems caused by the operation and it was at my request. I guess she was protecting herself since so many DR's are being sued if something goes wrong.
The results of the operation were wonderful and I only wish I had known about it sooner.
As far as the hypersensitivity issue, it's more a matter of getting used to the feeling and mentally putting it out of your mind until you have sex.
Kathy (USA)
Hyperlink please.
Alot of women are having this done in the west because its easier than going to psychotherapy and resolving their emotional issues or actually learning how to have better sex.
Much like how in non-western societies circumsize their daughters to ensure virginity, westerners are having this surgery done in order to ensure that they don't have to go through the uncomfortable process of figuring out their emotional problems and to re-adjust their attitudes towards female sexual power.
Keep in mind she threatened to do the surgery herself (Kathy) I don't consider that an action of a well-adjusted person.
Thanks Batty for finding the obsecure freak from the west to prove why female circumscision is a sign of mental/societal illness.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: huh sono when will u circucised?
Never, why even bother asking? I am not a female relative of yours, nor your wife, so why let my clit's existance phase you!
When will you start your chemical castration program?
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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I can't open that up at work, it'll set off alarms.
Now batty you come from a culture that has been mutilating women and girls for over 3,000 years. After that amount of time I can't expect you to respect female sexuality Egyptian or otherwise.
I just feel sorry for you.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
no mustilation only circumcison our culture cirmcise males + females no duble standard. rofl
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
WTH, I think the subject of FGM is serious enough not to make any jokes about it..... Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Female Circumcision should not be confused with Female Genital Mutilation. Circumcision involves cutting only the prepuce, or outer skin, of the clitoris and not the removal of the external genitalia as is done in some Muslim countries which is a horrible distortion of the idea of circumcision The value of this procedure in improving function has been accepted by various cultures for the past 3500 years. Although this subject is not new, there are indications for its use that are being overlooked by some modern physicians.
Sono need this circumsion . we know
In general terms, the main indications for circumcision are: (1) functional need - lack of ability to have a climax or ability to have one only with considerable difficulty, (2) an anatomic or mechanical factor that needs correction.
The two common problems that make the highly sensitive area of the clitoris unable to be stimulated are phimosis and redundancy. Sebaceous glands about the clitoris attempt to prevent adhesions of the prepuce to it. This sometimes fails and the clitoris is tightly adherent to the prepuce. This defect is recorded as 1 plus or 25% of the normal surface adherent, to 4 plus or complete coverage. A prepuce for the protection of the clitoris is normal and useful, but if it is excessive and extends past the eminence of clitoris it can prevent contact and is harmful. Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: no mustilation only circumcison our culture cirmcise males + females no duble standard. rofl
According to Abrahim only male believers are to be circumscised. Your culture started this 3,000 years ago, not to increase women's pleasure/sensitivity but to decrease it.
Many western women are going through the surgery because its a fad and all their friends are doing it. Like a nose job.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: sono u need circsion. ?
WHAT THE HELL AM I TELLING YOU THIS FOR, YOU ARE PRETTY DARN SNEAKY AND MANIPULATIVE FOR A 43 YEAR OLD VIRGIN Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: dudette. i tell i can never married woman with UTI
Urinary Tract Infection?
Yeah I've had those.
From what I have read about FGM clictoraldectomies in West African women, having the clit hood completely removed puts them in "Heat". Never completely satisfied and actually perpells them to be on the prowl more often than women who didn't have their clit hood removed or "clipped".
Ever heard that when a guy isn't circumsized he is constantly stimulated because his "foreskin" is always being brushed up against by his clothing? That circumscised men are less aroused and more likely to control themselves sexually (hint Ancient Egyptians would consider a male to be a barbarian until he was circuscized.) its the opposite effect with women unless the clitoris is completely removed.
So why bother doing any type of circumscision on a woman?
The "cutting" eithe makes them hypersensitive or losses the vast majority of feeling period.
Also I've had girlfriends from West Africa who have had their clit hoods removed then before marriage have had a massive problem controlling masterbation because they are always slightly aroused but don't reach climax without masterbation.
Then there's the girlfriends who have had their clits removed and found any kind of sexual stimulation painful in so many ways.
Dont' do a damn thing to a female's sexual organs and you avoid hundreds of issues.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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go see a doctor, first you need castration then you should seek some intense therapy, you have psychological and sexual problems big time.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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If you are seriously considering castration at all, the decision of whether or not to have this surgery will probably be the most serious decision you will ever make in your life. The removal of two tiny organs from your body will have a major impact on your body and your life, and once done there is no way to reattach those organs and have everything the way it was before. Fertility is forever and absolutely lost, and in the absence of testosterone your body will develop differently than it was originally programmed to. Testosterone replacement injections are painful, and offer incomplete and uncertain restoration of life as it was. For these reasons, you must be absolutely certain before you proceed with surgical castration, and you should not go through with this until you are absolutely certain that your life will be improved by castration.
In this section, I wish to address several issues I have often encountered in my E-Mails, in the eunuch newsgroup, and on message boards. These are issues that every person who is in any way contemplating castration needs to seriously consider.
How do I know if castration is right for me?
There is no test to determine if a person should be castrated. Therapists might help a person sort out their issues, but even the professionals can’t truly determine if a person should be castrated. You are the person who will live the rest of their life after castration, or after a decision to not be castrated. Therefore the decision must be absolutely yours alone.
If you are uncertain, then I would suggest that you go to my castration effects page. Read and consider every effect, both the good and the bad. Does the description of castration effects appeal to you? How do you feel about all of the effects combined? You can’t decide which effects you will accept and which ones you won’t have. You have to either accept that all of the effects may occur after you are castrated, or reject all of the effects by declining to be castrated. This is an all or nothing decision.
What may be an advantage of castration for one person may be a serious disadvantage for another. For example, I really wanted to prevent my body from masculinizing any further, yet many persons would have anxiety over the cessation or loss of masculinization.
Perhaps some effects appeal to you, while you don’t wish some of the other effects. What is more significant for you, the effects you wish or the effects you dislike? Would the advantages be worth the disadvantages for you? For me, the elimination of male libido, the prevention of masculinization, and the calming effects of greatly reduced testosterone were well worth the risks of osteoporosis and the possibility of hot flashes, while infertility and the loss of physical strength did not bother me at all.
Is there a non-permanent way to experience the effects of castration so I can try it out and see if it is right for me?
Yes. There are a couple of medications that block the effects of testosterone and cause the physical and mental effects of surgical castration.
Chemical castration is actually even more effective than the surgical castration, because anti-androgen medications suppress not only the testosterone from the testicles, but they also suppress the small amounts of testosterone produced by the adrenal glands. Your adrenal glands are located above each kidney, and they produce about five to ten percent of the total testosterone in the uncastrated male.
If you decide you like the effects, you can either continue taking the medication or seek the surgical castration. If you find that you are not as happy with castration, you can simply discontinue the medication, after which your testosterone levels will return to their former levels and your body and emotions will be restored.
To obtain anti-androgens, I would recommend finding a doctor who treats transsexuals by providing hormone therapy for them, and requesting androgen blockers. A therapist might be able to help you obtain such medication from a doctor.
I suffer from an intense sex drive that I wish to be relieved from, but I don’t want to lose all of it, I just want it reduced. Will castration just reduce my sex drive, or will I lose all of it?
Each person is different and will experience variations in the effects of castration. Unfortunately I can’t tell you how much your sex drive will decrease, or if you will have any left after castration. Some people will totally lose their drive after castration, and some will still have some drive although a much reduced drive. Before you get castrated, you have to accept that you may lose more drive than you wish to lose.
For me, the male sex drive contradicted my sense of self, and I would have been happy to totally lose my sex drive. I didn’t (and still don’t) care if I never had another orgasm in my life. Indeed, I was disappointed that I didn’t lose it entirely and that I still had occasional nighttime erections. Still, I did experience a much-reduced drive, and except for the nighttime erections, the unwanted erections have ceased. I recently started taking a low dose of estrogen, which have further reduced the drive and the nocturnal erections.
One thing I can suggest is what I suggested above: to try out androgen blockers and see how it would feel to be castrated. The experience of chemical castration may give a hint of how much drive you would retain after surgical castration.
I want to be castrated by ...
I see many requests in E-Mail, message boards, and mailing lists for castration by certain means. While the discussion of castration methods (such as S/M scenes, or by certain types of persons) does not bother me, I do worry about the happiness of the person after they are castrated. When I read some of the requests or questions, I sometimes wonder if the person is more focused on enjoying the castration procedure rather than on the much more important issue of what their life will be like afterwards. Do you seek castration for the effects, or do you seek castration merely to experience the act of castration?
For me, the castration procedure was something unpleasant that I had to put myself through so I could afterwards experience the lifetime benefits that would result. For me, they were benefits, yet for the vast majority of real men would negatively affect the quality of their lives.
Some examples of requests I frequently read include:
1. I want a woman to castrate me. 2. I want to be castrated without anesthesia, and to feel the pain. 3. I am a sub seeking a master to castrate me and make me his slave. 4. Will I ejaculate as my balls are cut off?
The thing I usually notice about these requests is that the person making the requests is more preoccupied with the manner in which they will be castrated, and I have to ask if they have considered at all what their life will be like after their castration experience.
I strongly urge you to consider something. By whatever means you are castrated by, remember that your castration procedure itself will last only a couple of hours at the most. If you are castrated by any means other than a medical doctor, your castration experience may be even briefer. Any sexual feelings you experience from a castration procedure will last only minutes, and that final orgasm will last only seconds.
After that, the effects of your castration will last for the rest of your life, and you can never have your testicles put back on your body. Hormone replacement will not be the same as having the testosterone naturally produced by your testicles. Even with testosterone replacement, you will never be the same again. If you don’t really desire the aftereffects of castration, then no matter how much you would enjoy going through a castration procedure, it would not be worth the effects you would feel for the rest of your life.
In the summer 1999 there were several posters in the alt.eunuchs.questions newsgroup who wrote about how they regretted their castration. One of these persons was actually a patient of Dr. Spector. In those days there was also a poster who denied that he regretted his castration from years before, but his posts were harsh. In one post, this person wrote, ‘Sorry, I don’t have a pair to do it again’, as if he wanted more testicles merely to go through the procedure again rather than experience the aftereffects, and I have to wonder if he really wished the effects of castration or sought to experience the procedure.
Do you really want to live with the effects of castration for the rest of your life, just to experience a brief castration procedure? Some men who become eunuchs in this manner have felt anguish only hours after their castration.
Sometimes a person writes something like, ‘I wish to have an empty (scrotal) sac’. Castration is much more than the removal of your testicles. It will have drastic effects on your feelings, sexuality, and your life in general.
If you are not absolutely certain that you wish to live the rest of your life with the effects of castration, then you must make sure that castration remains a fantasy for you. As long as you are not castrated, you can enjoy your fantasies for life, but once castrated, your sexuality is forever lost.
I have corresponded with some men who have castration fantasies. Most of these men seem to understand that their feelings are strictly fantasy and know that they don’t really want real castration and the aftereffects. But occasionally, a young adult will go through with a true castration scene while he lacks the knowledge of what he’s doing, or sometimes a drunk man with the fantasy gets himself in an S/M scene that goes too far. Then the regrets are swift and permanent.
So if I feel aroused at the idea of castration, does this mean that castration would be wrong for me?
While this does not necessarily mean that you shouldn’t be castrated, it does mean you should reconsider the idea. Certainly a person should not be castrated just because they have a castration fetish. The ultimate question is not how the idea of castration arouses you, but how you will feel after castration once your sex drive and fertility are gone. I do know of a few eunuchs online who had sexual fantasies about castration before their procedure, yet were happy after they became a eunuch. But there are many more who went through the procedure, and then were unhappy with their life as a eunuch.
The tendency for sexual arousal over castration is a strong warning to be cautious. Even if the idea of castration does not cause sexual excitement, you still need to be very cautious and really think about how castration will affect your life before you go through with this. If you do have these sexual feelings, then that is one more serious reason to hesitate and really think this over. Once you are castrated, the fantasy will fade with your libido.
A castration fetish does not guarantee that you will be happy after castration. If a fetish is the only reason you are considering castration, then you will probably feel very miserable after castration and should therefore keep it a fantasy.
Please understand that I do not condemn your fantasy. My concern is your happiness and how you will feel for the rest of your life. I would not want to deprive you of the right to enjoy your fantasy. I would much rather you decline castration so that you may enjoy your fantasy for life, than to have one brief castration experience followed by a lifetime of regret. If you are not harming another person, then there is no reason at all to try to ‘cure’ your fantasy.
I really want to be castrated and lose the sex drive, but what will my family think? My wife says she will divorce me if I go through with this.
There is something every person needs to understand, whether or not they wish to be castrated: Your body is yours, and you alone have the right to be castrated or not to be castrated.
Women have the right to refuse sex with a man. Men also have the right to decline sex, if they are so inclined. Here in the USA your wife can abort your child without your consent, and even a teenage girl can obtain an abortion without the consent of her parents. I’ve also heard of an abortion clinic refusing to perform an abortion on a girl because her parents were obviously trying to coerce her into it.
Do you not also have the right over your own body? I strongly feel that nobody at all should dictate that you should or should not be castrated. I am my mother’s only natural offspring, and I never had any children, yet I never even asked her because I have no obligation to. As of this time (March 2002), my mother still doesn’t know that she will certainly never have any natural grandchildren.
If you are certain that you would be happier as a eunuch with your sex drive gone, then nobody should have the right to prevent your from obtaining what you wish. If a wife, parent, or anyone else insists that you should tolerate and suffer an unwanted sex drive, then in my opinion they are no better than men who condone the rape of women.
If I am castrated, will anyone else ever find out?
The doctor who will perform your castration will know, but if he is doing your castration then he should be OK with it. Your general care practitioner should probably know so that he/she can better care for your health. If you are married, your spouse will probably notice your lack of testicles and your much-reduced libido. Otherwise, you should be able to pick and choose who knows and who doesn’t.
I lost enough physical strength that a supervisor at work was angry that I could no longer do a heavy lifting task in her department, but she never had any idea why. I simply moved out of her department and into a different section of the chicken plant where heavy lifting would never be required. If you do not wish to tell, then you should not be worried about anyone figuring out that you had a voluntary castration. I’ve also had to discontinue doing a few things for my mom that required heavy lifting, but she still has no idea why.
The only ways another person might figure out what you did are if you tell them, or if you undress in someone else’s sight. You will need to either avoid dressing or changing areas and other situations where someone else might see your genitals. If you need to discuss this with a doctor or therapist, they should respect your confidentiality.
Most men are anxious about the idea of castration, and may be offended about the concept of voluntary castration. While some eunuchs have reported positive experiences after disclosing at work or to family members, I personally do not recommend disclosure. Some eunuchs have had problems in the workplace, and I suspect I would have problems in my workplace if my coworkers ever found out. Most eunuchs are still able to perform their work after castration, so there is no reason to inform any supervisors about it.
I have told only other transgendered persons like myself, and my friends in PFLAG know. I have also shared experiences with one elderly man who had castration to treat his prostate cancer. Otherwise, I am stealth about this at work, in the neighborhood, and within my family. Although many of my coworkers have observed my unmanly manners and have long suspected that I am a gay person, nobody has ever figured out that I got castrated. You should not worry too much about accidental discovery.
What if I have only one testicle removed?
The removal of just one testicle will have practically zero effect. If only one testicle is lost or destroyed, the other testicle will enlarge and increase testosterone production to make up for the absence of the first one. This is quite a relief for those who lose one testicle due to accident or illness, but it is bad news for anyone who seeks partial castration effects or was hoping for a hint of what complete castration would feel like.
To experience the effects of surgical castration, both testicles must be removed. Surgical castration is an all or nothing deal, and once done it is permanent.
Some wrong reasons
I have seen men seeking castration for many various reasons in my E-Mail and also on message boards. Some of these men will truly benefit from castration, and I have followed the journeys of some as they found a surgeon, wait for their surgery date, and then describe their recovery followed by their feelings of relief afterwards.
I also see some men seeking castration for issues that would be better dealt with by less serious means. Some of these men are focused on one single benefit that they expect to gain from castration. The problem is, you can’t accept some benefits and decline others. Surgical castration is an all or nothing deal, and if you are going to do it, you must accept all of the consequences, both good and bad.
In the days after my own castration, I corresponded with one young man who had regrets about being a eunuch. I’m not sure what his exact motives for seeking castration were, but apparently he had found a long website whose purpose was to promote castration. This website was so pushy that I do not include it on my links. This site referred the man to Dr. Spector, who then performed the procedure, and then the man had regrets ever after.
Hair Loss – I used to lurk on the newsgroup alt.baldspot. Occasionally someone would suggest castration to treat their problem. Fortunately, other men would quickly warn the poster to not get castrated, saying that solution was too extreme. I have to agree with them, especially since there are now medications that will treat hair loss just as effectively. Castration may prevent further hair loss, but it will not regrow any hair that you have already lost. The vast majority of men would rather lose their hair than to lose their testicles, fertility, and testosterone. Fortunately men don’t have to make that choice anymore, since they can take Proscar, use Minoxidil, have hair transplants, or get a hair replacement system.
Excess body hair – If loss of body hair is the only effect that you seek from castration, then I would strongly suggest that you instead see an electrologist. Most electrologists are more than willing to work on men, including those seeking beard removal.
Birth control – You can obtain effective birth control with a vasectomy, which is an even more minor procedure and would not have any of the other effects that castration would cause.
FACT: An orchiectomy is a very simple surgical procedure in which a small incision is made to remove the testicles from the scrotum. The operation is far less invasive than a hysterectomy or much of the cosmetic surgery performed today. It typically is an outpatient procedure and replacing the testicles with prostheses makes the procedure virtually undetectable.
MYTH: castration is cruel and unusual punishment.
FACT: What could possibly be cruel about a treatment that allows a person to live a more normal life without the constant urge to molest children? It is unusual in the sense that it is the only permanent treatment that works with the offender.
MYTH: Castration will not be any more effective than conventional counseling.
FACT: European research over the past 30 years shows that in every single clinical study, the re-offender rate drops drastically to lo less than 5% for those who receive the treatment. It is after the surgery has been completed that counseling will be needed in order to aid the offender during the transition of changing lifestyles. Conventional counseling can be effective in conjunction with castration.
MYTH: Castration will only make the offender more violent by using other methods to molest.
FACT: Another positive aspect of castration is that it reduces not only the sexual impulse, but all aggressive traits in a person. A 1991 Czechoslovakian study of 84 castrated sex offenders revealed that only 3 men (out of 84) committed another sex offense after castration, and none were of an aggressive character.
A Danish study in the 1960s that followed 900 castrated sex offenders found that the recidivism rate dropped to 2.2%, and, similarly, none of these offenses were of an aggressive character.
MYTH: Castration is racist punishment.
FACT: Of the 11,000 identified sex offenders in Texas prisons, 45% are white; 24% are African-American and 30% are hispanic.
posted
It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post. Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Age will no doubt force Dr. Spector into retirement in not too many more years, and I can only hope that a new doctor will take his place in providing castration without hassle to those who truly desire it, and even improve on the procedure. Not only are there transgendered people, but there are men who would truly be happier if castrated to relieve strong libidos and for other causes, and we will always need a doctor that will competently perform this service to those who would benefit from it.
Castration made me feel so much better, took away a male libido that contradicted my sense of self, and made me feel more calm all of the time. I remain very happy that I went through with my castration, but it was merely my first step in finding peace with myself.
Two years and seven months after my orchiectomy, I finally commenced my estrogen reassignment therapy. I have since completed my facial electrolysis, and I made my legal and social transition at the end of 2002. In 2003 I moved out of Arkansas and began a new life where almost nobody knows about my past. I am now saving funds to obtain SRS, hopefully in the year 2006. Orchiectomy was merely my first step in obtaining the life I was meant to have.
posted
sultan why does every other site say fgm is not islamic?
why do most sane people see these rediculous 'fatwa' from that rediculous site as rediculous?
Why are you here 'wasting time' when you could be studying about Islam to further your knowledge, it does need furthering.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post.
The guys on Islam-QA are not interested in women having a healthy libido. Their reasons for recommending this is that they are under the mistaken impression that mutilating women would decrease their desire.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post.
The guys on Islam-QA are not interested in women having a healthy libido. Their reasons for recommending this is that they are under the mistaken impression that mutilating women would decrease their desire.
Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post.
The guys on Islam-QA are not interested in women having a healthy libido. Their reasons for recommending this is that they are under the mistaken impression that mutilating women would decrease their desire.
I feel sorry for those who buy into the absurd nonsense spouted on sites like Islam-QA. My pity is checked by a degree of loathing for their cruel stupidity and the damage they inflict. They are like drowning men, clinging to crumbling rocks. Most of the world despises their views, yet they are too blind to see how crazy such thinking is, in today's modern world.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post.
The guys on Islam-QA are not interested in women having a healthy libido. Their reasons for recommending this is that they are under the mistaken impression that mutilating women would decrease their desire.
I feel sorry for those who buy into the absurd nonsense spouted on sites like Islam-QA. My pity is checked by a degree of loathing for their cruel stupidity and the damage they inflict. They are like drowning men, clinging to crumbling rocks. Most of the world despises their views, yet they are too blind to see how crazy such thinking is, in today's modern world.
On which bases do you judge them? Do you have any scientific fact opposing their Fatwa?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Sultan, rather than just asking endless questions, why don't you answer the outstanding ones from Ayisha and Dalia? Do so and I will happily respond to the one above.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.
I think you simply don't understand the fatwas you're reading.
How on earth can reducing a person's libido lead to a *healthy libido*? A bit contradictory, is it not?
In the case of women, it serves a useful purpose which is to reduce desire.
With regard to the wisdom behind the circumcision of women, it is to regulate their desire so it will be moderate.
The purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words “O son of an uncircumcised woman” are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire.
Clitoridotomy "Clitoridotomy" (which is also called "hoodectomy" as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition).
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post.
The guys on Islam-QA are not interested in women having a healthy libido. Their reasons for recommending this is that they are under the mistaken impression that mutilating women would decrease their desire.
I feel sorry for those who buy into the absurd nonsense spouted on sites like Islam-QA. My pity is checked by a degree of loathing for their cruel stupidity and the damage they inflict. They are like drowning men, clinging to crumbling rocks. Most of the world despises their views, yet they are too blind to see how crazy such thinking is, in today's modern world.
On which bases do you judge them? Do you have any scientific fact opposing their Fatwa?
sultan, why dont YOU provide a scientific fact supporting this barbaric cultural tradition. Why dont you also supply an ISLAMIC source from QURAN that supports it. Please dont bother with more from the moronic fatwa department of QA as they wouldnt know something from Quran or Islam if it came and slapped them in the face.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): It's very informative thread for me actually but I need the sources of the two stories of Kathy and Cindy to send them to Islamqa to post.
The guys on Islam-QA are not interested in women having a healthy libido. Their reasons for recommending this is that they are under the mistaken impression that mutilating women would decrease their desire.
Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.
This is what I don't understand....
If not circumcising females is a double standard, why in Islam are women given seperate roles and responsibilities than men? Isn't the gender segregation a "double standard"?
I don't understand this in the least.
And another thing, I have been meaning to ask you this sultan.org (why you chose this username I can only guess ) Is you don't communicate Arabi through roman lettering, you only copy and paste Arabi in Arabi script telling me you weren't raised with Arabi as a dominate language or even a second language.
So your views on FGM put me off, because its not cultural for you; yet you take it as a "Religious duty". Nation of Islam felt the same way, but it was seen as a means of controlling the growth of out of wedlock children born in impoverished African American households. Just sew the women up and the African American men wouldn't have a chance to abandon their offspring, because its a woman's responsiblity not to get knocked up.
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I think more and more that an uncircumsized woman is a sincere threat to a pious Muslim man.
Why do guys like Batty and sultan put so much weight on female circumcision and how it has to be done and the reasons why..... you know I think the both of you never saw even a woman naked before. And a woman is so much more than a walking vagina. All what you have is this lousy images on wikipedia..... sexually oppressed that's all what I can think about when I read your posts.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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Castration made me feel so much better, took away a male libido that contradicted my sense of self, and made me feel more calm all of the time. I remain very happy that I went through with my castration, but it was merely my first step in finding peace with myself.
castration is not ok Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Why do guys like Batty and sultan put so much weight on female circumcision and how it has to be done and the reasons why..... you know I think the both of you never saw even a woman naked before. And a woman is so much more than a walking vagina. All what you have is this lousy images on wikipedia..... sexually oppressed that's all what I can think about when I read your posts.
Clitoridotomy "Clitoridotomy" (which is also called "hoodectomy" as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition).
wait. what?
are you suggesting that women should be circumcised to prevent them from masturbating? AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
well i guess we'd better chop off the hands of the entire male population on earth, b/c thats the only way you're going to get THEM to stop.
seriously, im really sick of seeing FGM articles on egyptsearch. since i first saw this website, ive been seeing FGM articles. they make me nauseous.
its a practice from the jahiliya, and it should have stopped there. i cant imagine a father ever agreeing to let their daughters be mutilated like that.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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Clitoridotomy "Clitoridotomy" (which is also called "hoodectomy" as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition).
wait. what?
are you suggesting that women should be circumcised to prevent them from masturbating? AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
well i guess we'd better chop off the hands of the entire male population on earth, b/c thats the only way you're going to get THEM to stop.
seriously, im really sick of seeing FGM articles on egyptsearch. since i first saw this website, ive been seeing FGM articles. they make me nauseous.
its a practice from the jahiliya, and it should have stopped there. i cant imagine a father ever agreeing to let their daughters be mutilated like that.
IT'S CIRUCMSION NOT FGM
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
batty, by definition in the west, female circumcison is considered a type of FGM
I got this from sunnipath.com- thought it was interesting.
RE: Female circumcision Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani
I have a Question regarding female circumcision in Hanafi fiqh. I've heard from several sources that this is wajib according to Shafi'i fiqh, while according to Hanafi fiqh the decision lies in the hands of the husband. Can you shed some light on this and give the legal proofs for this ruling?!
Walaikum assalam,
That which is wajib in the Shafi`i texts is merely slight 'trimming' of the tip of the clitoral hood - prepuce. It is neither excision nor FGM, nor anything else harmful to the woman or her ability to derive sexual pleasure. This is what the Hanafis considered an 'token' for the husband. It is not recommended per se.
As for excision, FGM, or other harmful practices, which have become culturally widespread, none of these are in any way permitted. This is why the scholars generally say that the proper practice is almost a lost art.
And Allah alone gives success.
Wassalam, Faraz Rabbani
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Why do guys like Batty and sultan put so much weight on female circumcision and how it has to be done and the reasons why..... you know I think the both of you never saw even a woman naked before. And a woman is so much more than a walking vagina. All what you have is this lousy images on wikipedia..... sexually oppressed that's all what I can think about when I read your posts.
Oh, I really got you here, didn't I? Looks like I hit the nail on its head. You getting off by internet images, don't ya?!
Since you are such a god-fearing man I just don't understand why you are discussing sexual matters with strangers and justify cruel abnormal actions like FGM? And on top of it you are posting links to vagina images on this forum????
Little advise from me to you: Stop rampaging like this - or you going to remain a virgin forever......
And if you indeed get married one day and have daughter I know you will make sure that she gets mutilated too. Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I dont understand why you woman get so upsade most muslim men' like to control woman Read the Qur'an the man is the head in the famely Posts: 173 | From: Sun | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Zame, could you please refrase on 'why woman getting so upset'? I do agree about the controlling part of the Muslim men though.
To cut part of a female's genitals is not normal, it's unhuman, it's despicable.
And seriously I am so thankful for the society I was born in and who I got married to.
Don't get be wrong I met couple of tolerant Egy guys who didn't feel they are superior to women in general, didn't agree on FGM and they didn't feel that they have to act out their macho behavior - but as I said they were only a couple, I can count them on two hands.
Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hibbah, the fact is that the sheik himself makes it clear tha the proper circumcision "is a lost art" and is NOT supposed to harm or alter the woman's ability to enjoy sex. These animals that are arguing pro-circumcision are talking out of both sides of their mouths...on one hand they provide eamples of Western women having it done in order to ENHANCE their orgasm yet we all know the Muslims do it in order to destroy her desire. Obviously, if it is going to be done in a way that is not to harm her and the delicate nerves IT WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE BY A SPECIALIST such as an OB/Gyn who could know what he is cutting...however, I am completely aghast that in 2007 this debate continues to rage...it is not a necessary nor recommended practice and the insistence by Muslims to continue to perpetrate this act is sickening
Posts: 407 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
female circumcision is a sunnah. but female circumcision is not what you think it is. the kind in the sunnah is not meant to remove the clitoris, but to remove part of the skin that covers it, making the female more sensitive(women find it so much harder to get satisfied than men! because they are not circumcised.) Do you understand this, Dalia, Ayisha Tigerlilly, Saywhatyousee,Hibbah, al-Kahina and Humanist?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): female circumcision is a sunnah. but female circumcision is not what you think it is. the kind in the sunnah is not meant to remove the clitoris, but to remove part of the skin that covers it, making the female more sensitive(women find it so much harder to get satisfied than men! because they are not circumcised.) Do you understand this, Dalia, Tigerlilly, Saywhatyousee,Hibbah, al-Kahina and Humanist?
Do you understand your own words, Sultan? Check them out, from page one, this debate. You really are disturbed, me thinks. You have been shamed by the arguments on this thread and watching you squirm and wriggle between posts, desperately trying to adjust your weak position, is painful. Your views on female sexuality are beyond misinformed, they are nasty and sickening.
Ignorance of the female body is no longer an excuse as you have been given enough links to learn and address your misogyny. Don't now try and pretend you care about enhancing women's pleasure.
Sultan:
Question: ''oh my goodness are you all for real?????? do they really do this in Egypt?????''
Sultan: '' to maintain the chastity of females??''
You make it absolutely clear that you link FGM with chastity. When you are questioned, challenged and proven wrong, you try and change your opening statements and make crazy assumptions about the female body. Not one woman agrees with you but you don't let that put you off.
Sultan: ''I think If there is a need for it such as large clitoris that causes exaggerated arousal, this is a benefit not a bad habbit''
You also make a sick joke about a girl smiling, when she may have had such an operation done:
Sultan: ''the girl in that link is smiling she may that operation!
The part where you detail how how you would take your child to be examined with FGM in mind, is the most disturbing thing I have ever read on ES.
Sultan: ''There is no problem and no shame if i ask a considerable(non-biased) women gynaecologist to check my daugter's genitalia and see if they need it or not.
This is for better health and protection against diseases.'' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dalia:
''A non-biased gynaecologist would throw you out and report you to the police.
I find it hard to get my head around the idea that someone could be so brainwashed that he considers doing that to his own child, deluding himself that it will "protect her from deseases".
If I had a daughter and someone considered taking her to the doctor to check whether she "needs" to be mutilated I'd make VERY sure that person never comes near her again - whatever that might take.
Now excuse me while I go and puke ...''
You ask for answers but admit to being too lazy to bother to read them. If you have no knowledge of a subject, why not try to learn something about it, before embarrassing yourself so publically?
You are dangerously ignorant, Sultan. I honestly think you get off on this, in some sick way. Please get help.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): female circumcision is a sunnah. but female circumcision is not what you think it is. the kind in the sunnah is not meant to remove the clitoris, but to remove part of the skin that covers it, making the female more sensitive(women find it so much harder to get satisfied than men! because they are not circumcised.) Do you understand this, Dalia, Ayisha Tigerlilly, Saywhatyousee,Hibbah, al-Kahina and Humanist?
1. Female circumcision is NOT sunnah the prophet never had any of his 4 daughters circumcized.
2. You are contradicting yourself and everything you have been trying to push here for months. You first said, and have continued to say, that this is done to STOP women being too sexual. We have even had the fiction from QA site about the girl on the train or bus or whatever getting hot because her clitoris was rubbing on her jeans. DUH what happened to telling her not to wear tight jeans!!
3. NOW you are trying to wriggle out of it all with saying we dont know what we are talking about and that having it done will make us more sensitive and our sex lives better!! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ): women find it so much harder to get satisfied than men! because they are not circumcised.
And you seriously believe you're in a better position to judge whether a woman finds it easy or hard to be satisfied than women themselves? Frankly, you're talking utter nonsense here, please stop embarrassing yourself.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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2. You are contradicting yourself and everything you have been trying to push here for months. You first said, and have continued to say, that this is done to STOP women being too sexual.
3. NOW you are trying to wriggle out of it all with saying we dont know what we are talking about and that having it done will make us more sensitive and our sex lives better!!
Exactly. I am totally baffled by the bold hypocrisy of this.
quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris
Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.
Circumcision reduces her desires and their effects
It takes away excessive libido from women
Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).
In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed
quote:Originally posted by sultan.org
Women with this large clit. will need at least 10 men to please her lust..so, she will be considered bith not chaste..So, it's advisable to cut off a very very very small peace.
Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.
Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris
(...)
A further benefit that is apparent for women and more so for their husbands, is that women of hot climates often have a large clitoris which arouses their desires when it rubs against the adjacent clothing. It may even grow to such a size that sexual intercourse is not possible. Therefore, circumcision reduces her desires and their effects in the first case, and makes intercourse possible in the second case.
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