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Author Topic: Female circumcison in Islam
islamway
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Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 – That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women. end quote.

See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 – That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women. end quote.

See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 – That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women. End quote

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.

Secondly:

With regard to the criticism of circumcision by some doctors, and their claim that it is harmful both physically and psychologically,

This criticism of theirs is not valid. It is sufficient for us Muslims that something be proven to be from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then we will follow it, and we are certain that it is beneficial and not harmful. If it were harmful, Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would not have prescribed it for us.

In the answer to question no. 45528 we have mentioned some of the medical benefits of circumcision for women, quoting from some doctors.

Thirdly:

We would add here the fatwas of some modern scholars who have responded to this war that has been launched against female circumcision on the grounds that it is harmful to health.

Shaykh Jaad al-Haqq ‘Ali Jaad al-Haqq, the former Shaykh of al-Azhar, said:

Hence the fuqaha’ of all madhhabs are agreed that circumcision for both men and woman is part of the fitrah of Islam and one of the symbols of the faith, and it is something praiseworthy. There is no report from any of the Muslim fuqaha’, according to what we have studied in their books that are available to us, to say that circumcision is forbidden for men or women, or that it is not permissible, or that it is harmful for females, if it is done in the manner that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) taught to Umm Habeebah in the report quoted above.

Then he said:

From the above it is clear that the circumcision of girls – which is the topic under discussion here – is part of the fitrah of Islam, and the way it is to be done is the method that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained. It is not right to abandon his teachings for the view of anyone else, even if that is a doctor, because medicine is knowledge and knowledge is always developing and changing. End quote.

In the fatwa of Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqar – the former heard of the Fatwa Committee in al-Azhar – it says:

The calls which urge the banning of female circumcision are call that go against Islam, because there is no clear text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah and there is no opinion of the fuqaha’ that says that female circumcision is haraam. Female circumcision is either obligatory or recommended. Even though there is a fiqhi principle which says that the decree of a ruler may put an end to a dispute regarding controversial matters, the decree of the ruler in this case cannot be but either of two things: that it is either obligatory or recommended, and it is not correct to issue a decree banning it, so as not to go against sharee’ah which is the principal source of legislation in our land, whose constitution states that Islam is the official religion of the country. It is permissible to issue some legislation that provides guidelines for performing this procedure (female circumcision) in the proper manner in such a way that does not contradict the rulings of sharee’ah.

The words of the doctors and others are not definitive. Scientific discoveries are still opening doors every day which change our old perceptions. End quote.

In the fatwa of Dar al-Ifta’ al-Misriyyah (6/1986) it says:

Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion. They acknowledge that the rates of cancer among circumcised men are lower than among those who are not circumcised, and some of these doctors clearly recommend that circumcision should be done by doctors and not these ignorant women, so that the operation will be safe and there will be no negative consequences. However, medical theories about disease and the way to treat it are not fixed, rather they change with time and with ongoing research. So it is not correct to rely on them when criticizing circumcision which the Wise and All-Knowing Lawgiver has decreed in His wisdom for mankind. Experience has taught us that the wisdom behind some rulings and Sunnahs may be hidden from us. May Allaah help us all to follow the right path. End quote.

________________________________________

Could you explain me what is the medical benefit of girl’s circumcision?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Just as Allaah has created mankind, He has also guided them that which is best suited to their interests in this world and in the Hereafter, so He sent them Messengers and revealed Books to guide mankind to what is good and urge them to follow it, and to teach them what is evil and warn them against it.

Islam may enjoin or forbid something and the people – or most of them – may not be able to see the wisdom behind this command or prohibition. In that case we are obliged to obey the command or heed the prohibition and to have certain faith that the laws of Allaah are all good, even if we cannot see the wisdom behind them.

Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, as is indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, plucking the armpit hairs, cutting the nails, and trimming the moustache." narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257).

Undoubtedly with regard to the Sunnahs of the fitrah, some of the wisdom behind them is obvious, and that includes circumcision. There are clear benefits to it which we should pay attention to and understand the wisdom behind it.

In the answer to question no. 9412 we have discussed circumcision, how it is to be done and the ruling on it. In the answer to question no. 7073 we have explained the health and shar’i benefits of circumcision for males.

Circumcision is prescribed for both males and females. The correct view is that circumcision is obligatory for males and that it is one of the symbols of Islam, and that circumcision of women is mustahabb but not obligatory.

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

Then Dr al-Ghawaabi refutes those who claim that female circumcision leads to frigidity by noting:

Frigidity has many causes, and this claim is not based on any sound statistics comparing circumcised women with uncircumcised women, except in the case of Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves.

From Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).

The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru’yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view):

For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision – the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.

Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said:

It takes away excessive libido from women

It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.

And Allaah knows best.

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Ayisha
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and Allah didnt give ANY instructions on this and the prophet had 4 daughters NO evidence has ever been found that ANY of them were circumcized.

This BARBARIC MUTILATION was carried out by pagan Arabs and others, the pagan Arabs also worshipped stones and other idols so should we take that as Islamic too??

You and those like you are a disgrace to humanity and a disgrace to Islam. May God have mercy on your lost souls. You are SICK

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Mo Ning Min E
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Why did He build women [and men] this way, if surgery is necessary?
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Ayisha
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Jessie thats a good point.

For men it is from a covenant between God and Abraham.

For women its from men who have a fear of sexual inadequacy, not from God or Islam.

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Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.

The WHO has declared ALL forms of female genital mutilation as harmful, and I've posted several links to that in the other thread.

So why does Islam-QA ignore this and instead quote something published almost 30 years ago? That's their typical way of twisting and ignoring facts in order to deceive people who are stupid enough to believe this crap. It's also typical that they don't give a reliable source as to whether this "book on traditions" really exists.

It's also highly deceiving that they are speaking of "saheeh" ahadeeth when all of the ahadeeth used to justify FGM have been clearly declared as weak. Again, ample evidence of that can be found in the old thread.


I sincerely think castration would be a good option for those angry old men in order to calm them down and make them focus on other things than women and sex. It would also be the perfect solution for the supposedly abundant male libido they keep speaking about in order to justify other atrocities against women.
Isn't it weird that those scholars constantly claim that men are the gender with a higher libido and give this as the reason that their wifes should be constantly available to them, that they should be able to marry up to four women and have sex with an unlimited number of slaves ... yet at the same time they claim it's women's libido that should be *reduced*, limited and restricted?


It's a sickening double standard and it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by jessie:
Why did He build women [and men] this way, if surgery is necessary?

what are Nails or armpit hair created for?
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Ayisha
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:
Originally posted by jessie:
Why did He build women [and men] this way, if surgery is necessary?

what are Nails or armpit hair created for?
Dont be so bloody rediculous!!! they grow back you moron, a clitoris doesnt!
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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalia*:
The WHO has declared ALL forms of female genital mutilation as harmful, and I've posted several links to that in the other thread.


It was said by health organizations before that Male circumcison is harmful . Now they declare the benefits of it. Why is that?
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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:
Originally posted by jessie:
Why did He build women [and men] this way, if surgery is necessary?

what are Nails or armpit hair created for?
Dont be so bloody rediculous!!! they grow back you moron, a clitoris doesnt!
What about the umbilical cord ?
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Ayisha
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are you for real??

The umbilical cord is cut from the placenta which is only for use while inside the womb.

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SayWhatYouSee
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayisha:
and Allah didnt give ANY instructions on this and the prophet had 4 daughters NO evidence has ever been found that ANY of them were circumcized.

This BARBARIC MUTILATION was carried out by pagan Arabs and others, the pagan Arabs also worshipped stones and other idols so should we take that as Islamic too??

You and those like you are a disgrace to humanity and a disgrace to Islam. May God have mercy on your lost souls. You are SICK

Agreed, Ayisha. What is pitiful is that since joining ES Dalia, Ayisha and lots of other people have provided numerous, strong arguments proving Sultan's sick views on FGM are wrong. It's utterly bizzare that he doesn't read the points properly and just keeps posting a lot of old tosh, written by a load of old tossers. People like this harm the faith they claim to believe in.
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Undercover
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The disciples of Jesus asked him

Is circumcision beneficial or not?

He said to them:

If it were beneficial, their father would begat them circumcised from their mother. e.g. be born like it.

But the true circumcision in Spirit gives the ultimate benefit.

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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.

I think you simply don't understand the fatwas you're reading.

How on earth can reducing a person's libido lead to a *healthy libido*? A bit contradictory, is it not?


In the case of women, it serves a useful purpose which is to reduce desire.

With regard to the wisdom behind the circumcision of women, it is to regulate their desire so it will be moderate.

The purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong. Hence the words “O son of an uncircumcised woman” are used as an insult, because the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire.


www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=9412&ln=eng

Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.

female circumcision is a sunnah. but female circumcision is not what you think it is. the kind in the sunnah is not meant to remove the clitoris, but to remove part of the skin that covers it, making the female more sensitive(women find it so much harder to get satisfied than men! because they are not circumcised.)
Now this can explain your inquiry.

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islamway
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If we do read the two storis of Kathy and Cindy posted by Batman. We can understand this easily.

quote:
Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
I'm a female, and I was circumcised a little over two years ago to correct a problem of a hidden clitoris, I couldn't get enough stimulation to it normally, without going through some uncomfortable maneuvers. I had a friend who had it done and it helped her, so I complained to my GYN about my difficulties. My GYN was hesitant to do it and I had to tell her several times how much trouble I was having reaching orgasm during intercourse because I had such a long hood. Finally I said I would do it myself if she refused. This got her attention and we set up an appointment a few days later and she circumcised me. She had me sign a paper that she was not responsible for any problems caused by the operation and it was at my request. I guess she was protecting herself since so many DR's are being sued if something goes wrong.

The results of the operation were wonderful and I only wish I had known about it sooner.

As far as the hypersensitivity issue, it's more a matter of getting used to the feeling and mentally putting it out of your mind until you have sex.

Kathy (USA)

quote:
Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
I recently had my clitoral hood removed (female circumcision) to improve sensitivity and cleanliness as it was such a long hood. I had some pain during healing, but that has been minimal. Healing has been rapid.

The glans clitoris has slowly increased in size since the operation. The sensitivity is also there and my ability to orgasm has increased be cause of it.

I think that all women should consider have their hoods removed as it would aid in cleanliness of the area and grreatly improving orgasm! I'm totally satisfied!

Female circumcision (i.e. foreskin removal) is an operation not widely known by females - and usually not widely known by doctors who may be called upon to practice it. Contrary to the recurrent idea in sex manuals today, most females, even in Western countries, had very little idea about their anatomy until the 1950s, and only a minority had any idea what a clitoris was, what it could do for them, and - last but not least - that it had to be cleaned. A good number of female friends whom I've discussed this with have found to have adherences that were extremly unpleasant, causing itching, redness, soreness - just like under the foreskin of uncircumcised boys.

Based on the above, it would seem easy to follow my advice. However, there has been some debate on whether circumcising clitoral hoods did not, in some cases, cause a problem in women - i.e., making the sensitivity of their clits impossible to control. The clitoris is not a penis. It does not thrust to orgasm, is attached to the belly, moves back and forth in the slit. It can be irritated easily (a phenomenon reported for a while by all freshly circumcised women), but certainly bring greater orgasms when it is totally naked. The few cases we see, however, like mine, are insufficient to form a real idea of the benefits of circumcision in females. Obviously for me it did provide many benefits. But it may not for you. I do not know enough circumcised women to form a wide sweeping opinion on this.

Probably one of the best ways to deal with this subject would be to have a clitoral exam when a female reaches a certain sexual maturity (around her twenties). Gynecological exams before then are usually an unpleasant, and sometimes traumatic experience for a girl. The doctor would not only check the vagina, the rectum, and the cervix, but also the sensitivity of the clitoris, the degree to which the hood adheres to the tip, and whether it would be beneficial or not to have a hood removal - which takes 15 minutes under local anesthesia, at the most. It would also be an ideal time to discuss clitoral hygeine with women, and the need for regular clitoral hood retraction and washing. This would enable women to add to the sexual pleasure - giving them greater sexual confidence. It would also give women a basis for which to decide if they believe they would benefit from female circumcision, as I have.

Cindy (USA)

This is clearly a confirmation to the importance of the islamic circumcison which is reducing the libido( which is increasing due to lack of correct sensitivity) and increase sensitivity of female.
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SayWhatYouSee
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''Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.''

Yeah, like www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=9412&ln=eng can be trusted to answer questions scientifically, with proper, up-to-date research to back their more absurd claims.

The ugly truth cannot be hidden, that ignorance is overwhelmingly behind FGM, not the desire to enhance female pleasure. They insult only their own weak weak intelligence by even presenting this rubbish as an argument. [Embarrassed] [Frown] Morons.

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islamway
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I feel uncomfortable because you are unable to understand my clear point. please Don't give me the impression that I'm talking with wrong persons. I'm against FGM. Don't you get this point?


it is frustrating that women find it much harder to get satisfied than men, and definately it is true that female circumcision, if done properly, would be something beneficial to women in their married lives.

The proper circumcision is sunna circumcision.

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SayWhatYouSee
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Sultan, as a woman, I think you are talking utter rubbish. I am infinitely better qualified to comment on female sexuality than you are. I understand what you're saying, it's very simple . I simply disagree. All of the other sane women on this thread disagree with you too. Should that not provide even the smallest of clues that you are barking up the wrong tree or just barking mad? [Roll Eyes] [Smile]
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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Sultan, as a woman, I think you are talking utter rubbish. I am infinitely better qualified to comment on female sexuality than you are. I understand what you're saying, it's very simple . I simply disagree. All of the other sane women on this thread disagree with you too. Should that not provide even the smallest of clues that you are barking up the wrong tree or just barking mad? [Roll Eyes] [Smile]

You can't judge all women. you are talking from the logic that you are a woman and you know better than me. Why don't you read the upove stories of Cindy , Kath and other millions of females that are suffering and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see women suffering because of lack of sensitivity harmony with their husbands.
Islam comes to free women from this dilemma.

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SayWhatYouSee
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Islam hasn't freed you from utter stupidity, Sultan. I don't claim to speak for all women, but I'm a better placed candidate than you will ever be. [Roll Eyes] Every woman here, as far as I can see, has expressed concern at your views on FGM. The majority have expressed disgust.

The issue is about sick attitudes towards women and a desperate need to control even the most private aspects of female sexuality. It has nothing to do with 'God' or the Qur'an and women and men here have repeatedly demonstrated this. Don't try and pretend you now care about the very few women in the world that may have a rare physical condition. In my entire life, I have never met one such woman or even heard of any, yet you were so so keen to drag a child off to be examined. [Eek!] Are you crazy? [Mad] Dressing ignorance up as truth will never work. Your views have been discredited and every slimy twist and turn noted. [Mad]

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islamway
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Your post consists of Insults and escaping from the topic frame. Why don't you address me in a more scientific way?
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Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Why don't you read the upove stories of Cindy , Kath and other millions of females that are suffering and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see women suffering because of lack of sensitivity harmony with their husbands.
Islam comes to free women from this dilemma.

Why don't you read the stories I posted in the other thread of Sherry, Joe and the millions of other men who are suffering from their intense sex drive and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see men suffering because of a lack of harmony with their wives.

Castration comes to free men from this dilemma. I think it would be the perfect solution for men who feel they can't contain their urges. Imagine -- no women being pressured to have sex with their husbands if they are not in the mood, no men hurting their wives' feelings by having second, third and fourth wives out of a desire for variety in the bedroom anymore, no prostitution, no cheating; in short, much less suffering for millions of women in the Muslim world, now wouldn't that be wonderful? And since you're so concerned about women not suffering unnecessarily, I'm sure you will agree with me that castration would be very, very beneficial to achieve this goal.
[Smile]

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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Why don't you read the upove stories of Cindy , Kath and other millions of females that are suffering and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see women suffering because of lack of sensitivity harmony with their husbands.
Islam comes to free women from this dilemma.

Why don't you read the stories I posted in the other thread of Sherry, Joe and the millions of other men who are suffering from their intense sex drive and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see men suffering because of a lack of harmony with their wives.

Castration comes to free men from this dilemma. I think it would be the perfect solution for men who feel they can't contain their urges. Imagine -- no women being pressured to have sex with their husbands if they are not in the mood, no men hurting their wives' feelings by having second, third and fourth wives out of a desire for variety in the bedroom anymore, no prostitution, no cheating; in short, much less suffering for millions of women in the Muslim world, now wouldn't that be wonderful? And since you're so concerned about women not suffering unnecessarily, I'm sure you will agree with me that castration would be very, very beneficial to achieve this goal.
[Smile]

Firstly
This is not prescribed by Islam
Secondly
This is abuse for women.
Thirdly
Castration is like FGM. Both are Illegal in Islam

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ZAME
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Your post consists of Insults and escaping from the topic frame. Why don't you address me in a more scientific way?

movie star movie star you are a moviestar [Big Grin]


http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=goat+fucker&search=Search

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SayWhatYouSee
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Your post consists of Insults and escaping from the topic frame. Why don't you address me in a more scientific way?

Sultan, your use of the word scientific is preposterous, given the absence of any credibility in your arguments. [Roll Eyes] Your views, I find hugely offensive and degrading to women. I will address your monstrous opinions as I see fit. If you don't like it, remove your overly emotional brain from the debate. Instead of presenting evidence, you just cut and paste more layers of nonsense, as you try to manoeuvre your way out of the pit you have dug for yourself. The problem is that you are not a skilled enough driver and you don't even appear to understand the words you post. Quit playing the injured party when you know how rancid your opinions on women's sexuality are to most people here.

I suggest you go off and learn some biological facts, rather than trying to convince anyone that FGM or female circumcision is necessary to inflict on huge populations of women. You don't listen and admit that you are too lazy to bother to read replies. How can anyone respect your sincerity, in such circumstances or tolerate you asking the same questions over and over again? You have failed to reverse your initial argument. It is futile to try and persuade anyone that you now have the sexual interests of all women at heart. You are one deluded dude. [Frown]

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Âutomatic For The People
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:
Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Sultan, as a woman, I think you are talking utter rubbish. I am infinitely better qualified to comment on female sexuality than you are. I understand what you're saying, it's very simple . I simply disagree. All of the other sane women on this thread disagree with you too. Should that not provide even the smallest of clues that you are barking up the wrong tree or just barking mad? [Roll Eyes] [Smile]

You can't judge all women. you are talking from the logic that you are a woman and you know better than me. Why don't you read the upove stories of Cindy , Kath and other millions of females that are suffering and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see women suffering because of lack of sensitivity harmony with their husbands.
Islam comes to free women from this dilemma.

There are many people who have a medical procedure to remove their tonsils. Doctors recommend this kind of surgery to improve the patients health. Sometimes the tonsils are so large that they make breathing and swallowing quite difficult and painful. They sometimes do this procedure on children if they have repeated infection.

It would be stupid to remove the tonsils of every new born baby to prevent few from having problems when they`re adults.

Likewise, circumcision may be medically required to treat some women but there`s no way to know who will require this corrective procedure until they are grown and start to have problems. It does not make any sense to circumcise every baby girl on the off chance that few may need it way into their adulthood.

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antihypocrisy
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quote:
Originally posted by GetYourFilthyHandsOffMyDesert:
quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:
Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Sultan, as a woman, I think you are talking utter rubbish. I am infinitely better qualified to comment on female sexuality than you are. I understand what you're saying, it's very simple . I simply disagree. All of the other sane women on this thread disagree with you too. Should that not provide even the smallest of clues that you are barking up the wrong tree or just barking mad? [Roll Eyes] [Smile]

You can't judge all women. you are talking from the logic that you are a woman and you know better than me. Why don't you read the upove stories of Cindy , Kath and other millions of females that are suffering and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see women suffering because of lack of sensitivity harmony with their husbands.
Islam comes to free women from this dilemma.

There are many people who have a medical procedure to remove their tonsils. Doctors recommend this kind of surgery to improve the patients health. Sometimes the tonsils are so large that they make breathing and swallowing quite difficult and painful. They sometimes do this procedure on children if they have repeated infection.

It would be stupid to remove the tonsils of every new born baby to prevent few from having problems when they`re adults.

Likewise, circumcision may be medically required to treat some women but there`s no way to know who will require this corrective procedure until they are grown and start to have problems. It does not make any sense to circumcise every baby girl on the off chance that few may need it way into their adulthood.

wut if baning tonsils remve ?
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antihypocrisy
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalia*:

Castration comes to free men from this dilemma.
[Smile]

unnnnnnnnnnnnnmom. should u post this in the marriage forrrrrum/share ur experience forum?
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antihypocrisy
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quote:
Originally posted by jessie:
Why did He build women [and men] this way, if surgery is necessary?

the foreskin is for proetction of the penis of the baby in abdomn of mama. when the baby come he is circumcised because this skin on his penis is no use now. we need show the penis now to be visible [Eek!]
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antihypocrisy
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quote:
Originally posted by GetYourFilthyHandsOffMyDesert:
quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:
Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Sultan, as a woman, I think you are talking utter rubbish. I am infinitely better qualified to comment on female sexuality than you are. I understand what you're saying, it's very simple . I simply disagree. All of the other sane women on this thread disagree with you too. Should that not provide even the smallest of clues that you are barking up the wrong tree or just barking mad? [Roll Eyes] [Smile]

You can't judge all women. you are talking from the logic that you are a woman and you know better than me. Why don't you read the upove stories of Cindy , Kath and other millions of females that are suffering and don't know what to do? It's frustrating to see women suffering because of lack of sensitivity harmony with their husbands.
Islam comes to free women from this dilemma.

There are many people who have a medical procedure to remove their tonsils. Doctors recommend this kind of surgery to improve the patients health. Sometimes the tonsils are so large that they make breathing and swallowing quite difficult and painful. They sometimes do this procedure on children if they have repeated infection.

It would be stupid to remove the tonsils of every new born baby to prevent few from having problems when they`re adults.

Likewise, circumcision may be medically required to treat some women but there`s no way to know who will require this corrective procedure until they are grown and start to have problems. It does not make any sense to circumcise every baby girl on the off chance that few may need it way into their adulthood.

fyi ya auto
clitoralhod cause UTI for ladies because urine drops is rotton n rancid in this area between clitoris and clitois hood.

clit sheath(hood) is for protectin of glans of the baby in mother abdomen like the penis sheath(forskin)
after birth, the sheat of penis n the clit shoud b removed for cleaning

the penis sheath cause uti [Frown]
the clit sheat cause uti [Frown]

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TAREK307
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ANY MAN WHO AGREES WITH FGM SHOULD HAVE HIS PENIS CUT OFF IMMEDIATLEY! YOU IGNORANT IDIOTS

--------------------
MY BLOG
www.modernpharaoh.blogspot.com

http://www.myspace.com/tarek307

AOL,YAHOO,MSN TAREK307

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little surfer girl
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quote:
Originally posted by TAREK307:
ANY MAN WHO AGREES WITH FGM SHOULD HAVE HIS PENIS CUT OFF IMMEDIATLEY! YOU IGNORANT IDIOTS

[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin] !!!!
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Aya Hosni
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quote:
''Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.''
[/QB]

Does male circumcision have something in common with libido???? I thought it is made just from hygienic reasons..
As i have thought all the time, sanitary (cleaness) is the main aim of circumcision, but in female circumcision takes place other intentions. And i have heard that in most countries it is forbidden nowadays. Sultan, can u explain plz?

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Âutomatic For The People
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quote:
Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:


the penis sheath cause uti [Frown]
the clit sheat cause uti [Frown]

Garbage
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islamway
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Urinary tract infections. Urinary tract infections. Circumcision decreases the risk of urinary tract infection (UTI) tenfold in the first year of life, and the decreased risk continues for the first

five years of life. Ginsberg and McCracken first reported a relationship between circumcision and UTI in 1982. Of 62 male infants admitted to the hospital with UTI, they found that 95% were uncircumcised. Wiswell's 1985 hospital-based study reported fewer UTIs during the first year of life in circumcised males. A much larger, two-part study by Wiswell and Roscelli the following year confirmed these initial findings.

In the first part of the larger study, which included 3,924 infants born at Brooke Army Medical Center, the frequency of UTI in uncircumcised males was 1.1%, ten times the frequency found in circumcised males (0.1%). in the second part of the study, of 422,328 infants born over a 10-year period, uncircumcised males made up only 19.3% of the study population but accounted for 70.8% of the UTIs. Even more significant, as the rate of circumcision decreased over the years, the number of UTIs increased.

Data from 100,000 Swedish children confirmed Wiswell's findings, revealing a risk of 1.1% for uncircumcised males in the first year of life. More recently, several reports have demonstrated that the risk of UTI is lower for circumcised than uncircumcised males beyond the first year, at least through 5 years of age. A study published in December by To and colleagues supports the findings of decreased risk of UTI for circumcised males but notes that the protective effect of circumcision may be less than previously thought.
http://www.rogerknapp.com/medical/circum.htm

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islamway
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Circumcision has been performed from very early times in many cultures around the world . The table summarizes its benefits and risks according to current data. Studies suggest that neonatal circumcision does play a role in preventing some medical conditions, including penile carcinoma and urinary tract infection, and may or may not reduce the incidence of sexually transmitted diseases and cervical cancer.

Diseases Prevented:
>7,000 cases of Aids
>10,000 cases of syphilis
>20,000 episodes of kidney infection
>1,000 cases of penile cancer
200,000 cases of phimosis (foreskin scared closed)
250,000 cases of balanoposthitis (infected forskin)

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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by Aya Hosni:
quote:
''Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.''

Does male circumcision have something in common with libido???? I thought it is made just from hygienic reasons..
As i have thought all the time, sanitary (cleaness) is the main aim of circumcision, but in female circumcision takes place other intentions. And i have heard that in most countries it is forbidden nowadays. Sultan, can u explain plz? [/QB]

There are a lot of theories.
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Âutomatic For The People
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Urinary tract infections. Urinary tract infections. Circumcision decreases the risk of urinary tract infection (UTI) tenfold in the first year of life, and the decreased risk continues for the first

five years of life. Ginsberg and McCracken first reported a relationship between circumcision and UTI in 1982. Of 62 male infants admitted to the hospital with UTI, they found that 95% were uncircumcised. Wiswell's 1985 hospital-based study reported fewer UTIs during the first year of life in circumcised males. A much larger, two-part study by Wiswell and Roscelli the following year confirmed these initial findings.

In the first part of the larger study, which included 3,924 infants born at Brooke Army Medical Center, the frequency of UTI in uncircumcised males was 1.1%, ten times the frequency found in circumcised males (0.1%). in the second part of the study, of 422,328 infants born over a 10-year period, uncircumcised males made up only 19.3% of the study population but accounted for 70.8% of the UTIs. Even more significant, as the rate of circumcision decreased over the years, the number of UTIs increased.

Data from 100,000 Swedish children confirmed Wiswell's findings, revealing a risk of 1.1% for uncircumcised males in the first year of life. More recently, several reports have demonstrated that the risk of UTI is lower for circumcised than uncircumcised males beyond the first year, at least through 5 years of age. A study published in December by To and colleagues supports the findings of decreased risk of UTI for circumcised males but notes that the protective effect of circumcision may be less than previously thought.
http://www.rogerknapp.com/medical/circum.htm

Garbage. And how easy it is to get you change your argument. You argued that circumcision should be done to increase pleasure for women. But the problem there is not every woman suffers from that closed hood thing and there's no way of knowing if a baby girl would develop such a problem later in life. Which makes your argument for routine circumcision mute.

Now you pulling this UTI crap. How many people do you know who are uncircumcised and have/had UTI? How many people are uncircumcised period?
You can't get any more delusional than this. It's not rocket science, all you have to do is look around you. If UTI is really that much of a risk why aren't there hundreds of millions of people in hospitals or being treated right now?
Why are children dying from hunger and diseases resulting from unclean water and not UTI (at least not that I've heard of) ?

If you really care that much of the subject, drop everything you're doing and go down to the nearest clinic near you. Ask them how many patients came today to be treated for UTI.

I bet if you research tonsil infection you will find more cases than those with UTI.

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islamway
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quote:
how easy it is to get you change your argument.
I didn't change my first argument. It's an additional one.

quote:
Ask them how many patients came today to be treated for UTI.
The number is amazingly high ( women are greater in number). Btw, UTI are not one type disease.
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islamway
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quote:
Originally posted by GetYourFilthyHandsOffMyDesert:
If UTI is really that much of a risk why aren't there hundreds of millions of people in hospitals or being treated right now?

because there are Broad spectrum Antibiotics that cure it.
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Ayisha
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well thats odd, I have not had FGM performed on me, I am not on any anti biotics or medication of any type and have never had a UTI so I must be a miracle of some sort [Confused]
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humanist
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I say it again. I pray to God Sultan, BatMan and all men who wish to remain ignorant and hold on to delusions about circumcision NEVER will be blessed with female children. I hope their sperm is sterile and furthermore, they become impotent.

The "clit" does not have the same kind of "sheath" like a penis. I would imagine a chronically "exposed" clit would be painful, not pleasurable. The hood of the clitoris protects the clit as it is an extremely sensitive nerve. The clit serves NO OTHER FUNCTION than to provide sexual satisfaction for the female, unlike the penis which provides multiple functions.

Finally, both men argued circumcision (and backed it up with their cavemen scholars) limits female sexual libido. Now, they take a few statements from WESTERN WOMEN LOL who extoll the virtues of clitorectomy (which is not what happens in ME countries, even when the entire clit is not removed!!!!!!!!) and try to argue this is what circumcision is all about...pleasure for the woman!!!!! They are liars and they are so ignorant. I wonder how they get computers hooked up in their caves???

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Aya Hosni
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
quote:
Originally posted by Aya Hosni:
quote:
''Correctly circumcised Males and Females have healthy libido that is better than uncircumcised couples.''

Does male circumcision have something in common with libido???? I thought it is made just from hygienic reasons..
As i have thought all the time, sanitary (cleaness) is the main aim of circumcision, but in female circumcision takes place other intentions. And i have heard that in most countries it is forbidden nowadays. Sultan, can u explain plz?

There are a lot of theories. [/QB]
Is it possible to have a lot of theories in the field of medicine? It is not a philosophy- it's practical science [Confused]
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SUKKUR
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Likewise, circumcision may be medically required to treat some women but there`s no way to know who will require this corrective procedure until they are grown and start to have problems. It does not make any sense to circumcise every baby girl on the off chance that few may need it way into their adulthood.
-----------------------------------

Yes but if we can just save one woman from excessive libido our efforts will be worthwhile.
It would be like saving mankind. A single woman can corrupt the minds of so many pious men..why take the chance?

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Mobrouk
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Could SUKKAR be any more gay????? S U C K E R
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Dalia*
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quote:
Originally posted by sultan.org(In Makka ):
Urinary tract infections. Urinary tract infections. Circumcision decreases the risk of urinary tract infection (UTI) tenfold in the first year of life, and the decreased risk continues for the first

five years of life. Ginsberg and McCracken first reported a relationship between circumcision and UTI in 1982. Of 62 male infants admitted to the hospital with UTI, they found that 95% were uncircumcised. Wiswell's 1985 hospital-based study reported fewer UTIs during the first year of life in circumcised males. A much larger, two-part study by Wiswell and Roscelli the following year confirmed these initial findings.

In the first part of the larger study, which included 3,924 infants born at Brooke Army Medical Center, the frequency of UTI in uncircumcised males was 1.1%, ten times the frequency found in circumcised males (0.1%). in the second part of the study, of 422,328 infants born over a 10-year period, uncircumcised males made up only 19.3% of the study population but accounted for 70.8% of the UTIs. Even more significant, as the rate of circumcision decreased over the years, the number of UTIs increased.

Data from 100,000 Swedish children confirmed Wiswell's findings, revealing a risk of 1.1% for uncircumcised males in the first year of life. More recently, several reports have demonstrated that the risk of UTI is lower for circumcised than uncircumcised males beyond the first year, at least through 5 years of age. A study published in December by To and colleagues supports the findings of decreased risk of UTI for circumcised males but notes that the protective effect of circumcision may be less than previously thought.
http://www.rogerknapp.com/medical/circum.htm

Err ... this is referring to MALE circumcision which is a whole different issue altogether, so it doesn't have any significance for the discussion at hand. A penis is used for urinating, a clitoris is not.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.
[Roll Eyes]

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Holy moly, thank god I saved myself and my unborn daughter for this kind of fate!

Seriously, I can't get over the fact that FGM is discussed here with some virgins who never touched a woman, never made love to a woman, don't know anything about the female species!

And then they pull this crap about 'healthy libido'. And what are you - advocators about UTI????

Guys, you are afraid of women who have normal desire for sex. You are afraid of the fact that she might wander off to someone else. So you wanna keep her under control by removing some private parts of her?!

Seriously, something is completely wrong in the Muslim culture. Why are all these women don't get out off the street and demonstrate against mutilation, oppression and other things? Why do they bend down and let the males rule their lives? Women where are your united voices????

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antihypocrisy
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quote:
Originally posted by humanist:


The "clit" does not have the same kind of "sheath" like a penis.

liar
[Roll Eyes]

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antihypocrisy
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quote:
Originally posted by humanist:

I would imagine a chronically "exposed" clit would be painful, not pleasurable. The hood of the clitoris protects the clit as it is an extremely sensitive nerve. The clit serves NO OTHER FUNCTION than to provide sexual satisfaction for the female, unlike the penis which provides multiple functions.


now answer this list
1 u say "exposed clit will be painful not pleasurable", where th Fcuk u get this?
2 the hood protct clit from what? the forskin protect penis from what?

3 u say the penis have no sexual function? the penis erect and the clit erect u know that. wat the differnece? the clit is sensivite and the tip of the penis is not??

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antihypocrisy
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humanist u r ignortant
it's crystal clear u have no knowledge about sex ur words about sex mechanism and "exposed clit" is distorted and deluded. [Frown]

u r ignorant [Frown]

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Ayisha
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my my batman you are stupid [Roll Eyes]
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