Whenever religious freedom is discussed in Egypt, the topic inevitably turns to the status of the Christian Copts. Thousands of articles have been written about Egypt's Copts and how they are denied their religious freedoms, but it almost never occurs to anyone that even Sunni Muslims are being deprived of their basic rights to religious freedom and worship.
That is exactly what happened at the end of last month when the ministry of awqaf (religious endowments) decided to ban Egypt's Sufi orders from holding gatherings for the performance of dhikr – rituals devoted to the remembrance of God. Sufis have been performing these rituals for centuries, so a ban at this particular time is absurd.
The ministry's excuse is that the ban is intended to pre-empt undesirable behaviour at Sufi gatherings, such as the shouting of invocations and late-night loitering in mosques. In a city such as Cairo where the noise of traffic is a constant background, it just doesn't make sense.
Clashes took place at Cairo's al-Husayn and al-Sayyida Zeinab mosques between members of Sufi orders and security forces who forced them to evacuate the two shrines.
A simple definition of Sufism is in order. Imam al-Ghazali says of the Sufis: "The aim of their knowledge is to lop off the obstacles present in the soul and to rid oneself of its reprehensible habits and vicious qualities in order to attain thereby a heart empty of all save God and adorned with the constant remembrance of God."
The Sufis are moderate, tolerant, peace-loving and highly spiritual Muslims, light years away from the violent image of Islam projected to western audiences. They believe God must be at the forefront of one's thoughts at all times. The dhikr rituals, which include dancing and religious songs, are aimed at nothing more than the remembrance of God. Why the government would want to ban a practice so peaceful and harmless is incomprehensible.
In Egypt, Sufism is more institutionalised than anywhere else. There are 74 Sufi orders in Egypt, each headed by its own Sufi sheikh. At the top there is a Supreme Council for Sufi Orders and the president is directly in charge of Sufi affairs. Some Sufi orders were founded over 700 years ago. Their founders' shrines are present in mosques, and millions of Muslims travel to them every year to celebrate the birthdays (moulids) of the Sufi sheikhs and gain their blessings. Perhaps the spirituality of Sufism has been neglected by some in recent times, but the dhikr ceremonies and moulids have been cultural practices for centuries and are a part of Egypt's heritage. The moulids last for several days and are occasions for happiness, festivities, remembrance of God, income for the poor and fun for children.
The recent ban is another victory for extreme Salafi thinking at the expense of Egypt's moderate Sufism. Salafism, imported into Egypt from Saudi Arabia and publicised around the world thanks to petrodollars, is the enemy of anything moderate and tolerant. The Salafis believe that the only true path is to follow the practices of the early generations of Muslims – literally.
Salafi thinking, which has gradually occupied Egyptian thought over the past three decades, puts enormous emphasis on external appearance rather than the inner spirit. They grow their beards just as the first Muslims did and trim their trousers so that the hems hang well above the ankles (or just wear a short jilbab) and their women usually wear the niqab. They believe that anything that deviates from their strictly literal interpretations of Islam is bida'a (innovation) and thus a gateway to hell.
Although most Egyptians do not identify themselves as Salafis, their thinking has been greatly influenced by Salafism, especially the younger generation. Much effort is expended in public displays of religiosity such as beards, prayer beads, prayer calluses and women's clothing, while the spiritual aspect of religion and the proper ethics Muslims should adhere to take a back seat.
Salafis have been fighting Sufis for ages. They accuse them of polytheism and unbelief for revering the Sufi sheikhs and building mosques at their shrines. The recent dhikr ban is not the first victory for Salafi thought over moderate Sufism. They regularly call for the banning of all moulids and dhikr ceremonies, and succeeded in this respect last year when the moulid of al-Sayyida Zeinab, the prophet's Muhammad's granddaughter, was banned. The excuse used by the government back then was swine flu. The crowds at the moulid bothered them, but the crowds on Cairo's metros and buses didn't seem to be a problem.
Salafis regularly bash Sufism as un-Islamic and their rituals as unbelief and infidelity. They also accuse them of encouraging sin and debauchery because mixing of the sexes takes place at the shrines and during the moulids. Indeed, the mosque of al-Sayyid Ahmed al-Badawi in Tanta, where the founder of the Ahmadiya Sufi order is buried, does not enforce any strict segregation between men and women. Both sexes can be seen together inside the mosque and the only separation takes place during prayer, when women stand behind the men. Such mixing of the sexes is seen as pure evil by the Salafis, and unacceptable by many Egyptians.
Thanks to the Salafis, Islam has been given a bad name all over the world. As if that's not enough, the invasion of Egypt by Salafi thought has resulted in the stagnation of Islam and pulled the minds of many Egyptian Muslims back in time. What's more is that the intolerance of Salafism has worsened Muslim-Coptic relations in the past few decades. And to top all that, now even Egypt's peaceful Muslims are being denied religious freedom in their own country.
posted
Such a shame! During the Moulid of Abu El Haggag in Luxor, we can usually find some Sufis in a back street somewhere, not the "Whirling Dervish" type, but the violent head swayers. They don't seem to notice the odd onlooker or two, and the music is certainly mesmerising. It's a fascinating spectacle for anyone to behold, but we didn't find any at this year's Moulid. I'm unaware of any official ban, but you never know, do you?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:The Sufis are moderate, tolerant, peace-loving and highly spiritual Muslims, light years away from the violent image of Islam projected to western audiences. They believe God must be at the forefront of one's thoughts at all times. The dhikr rituals, which include dancing and religious songs, are aimed at nothing more than the remembrance of God.
We do not have religious songs or dancing in islam to remember God. What sufis do has no proofs from Quran or Sunna. It is obviously something we do not know about before.
I think The sufis are in the phase of disappearing from Egypt because Sufis began to figure out that what they do is not of Islam. What is islamic and make One near Allah is to pray the obligatory five prayers ,recite Quran, understand Quran correctly.
Charity and helping the poor is something to make one near Allah..
I am afraid but Dancing and making Mawlid is not something that has a benefit to Muslims, Human being or those sufis themselves.
I can go to discos and make up a song about whatever and tell you I am praying God. Do I sound Sane then? Of course not.
I am against Sufism. This is not Islam.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: We do not have religious songs or dancing in islam to remember God.
I am afraid but Dancing and making Mawlid is not something that has a benefit to Muslim
That's your point of view. Sufis obviously believe otherwise.
There are many ways to achieve spiritual enlightenment, if music and dancing works for some people, there is nothing wrong with that.
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: What sufis do has no proofs from Quran or Sunna.
The hateful ideology being propagated by the Salafis is not based on any proof from the Qur'an or Sunnah either.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote: I can go to discos and make up a song about whatever and tell you I am praying God. Do I sound Sane then? Of course not.
Funny
Sufis contrubited religion more than Salafis did. I am not talking about those ignorant so called sufis. I am talking about the ones like Rumi. They taught 'Loving God', not investing for afterlife. Loving God will bring you to Heaven, not wearing niqab. If you 'really' love God, then you will love his creatures and that will lead you to be a good person.
Tell me what bothers you about following quotes of Rumi ; 'If in thirst you drink water from a cup, you see God in it. Those who are not in love with God will see only their own faces in it.'
'In truth everything and everyone Is a shadow of the Beloved, And our seeking is His seeking And our words are His words... We search for Him here and there, while looking right at Him. Sitting by His side, we ask: 'O Beloved, where is the Beloved?''
'Only from the heart Can you touch the sky.'
'People of the world don't look at themselves, and so they blame one another.'
'We rarely hear the inward music, but we're all dancing to it nevertheless.'
'Close both eyes to see with the other eye'Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: Sufis contrubited religion more than Salafis did. I am not talking about those irrogant so called sufis. I am talking about the ones like Rumi. They taught 'Loving God', not investing for afterlife. Loving God will bring you to Heaven, not wearing niqab. If you 'really' love God, then you will love his creatures and that will lead you to be a good person.
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: We do not have religious songs or dancing in islam to remember God.
I am afraid but Dancing and making Mawlid is not something that has a benefit to Muslim
That's your point of view. Sufis obviously believe otherwise.
There are many ways to achieve spiritual enlightenment, if music and dancing works for some people, there is nothing wrong with that.
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: What sufis do has no proofs from Quran or Sunna.
The hateful ideology being propagated by the Salafis is not based on any proof from the Qur'an or Sunnah either.
Neither the prophet nor the companions were dancing to be spiritual. They were praying at the night and reciting Qur'an to be near God. What Sufis do is Bid'a.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Neither the prophet nor the companions were dancing to be spiritual.
So what? There are countless things they didn't do that we do today. Their lifes are not supposed to serve as a blueprint for ours.
The Qur'an tells us that God created camels for transportation. I assume you are using cars, trains and airplanes though. Is that bida'a? Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Worshiping Allah in a new way is Bid'a.
Bid'a is innovation in Islamic religious beliefs or worship [/QB]
so what set rule is there for worshipping Allah. Please reference Quran verses with your answer, thanks.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Worshiping Allah in a new way is Bid'a.
Bid'a is innovation in Islamic religious beliefs or worship
so what set rule is there for worshipping Allah. Please reference Quran verses with your answer, thanks. [/QB]
Well, Do you think you can go singing and dancing instead of praying? Does Mother Ayisha, the Prophet's Wife, was dancing and singing to be near Allah.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Worshiping Allah in a new way is Bid'a.
Bid'a is innovation in Islamic religious beliefs or worship
so what set rule is there for worshipping Allah. Please reference Quran verses with your answer, thanks.
Well, Do you think you can go singing and dancing instead of praying? Does Mother Ayisha, the Prophet's Wife, was dancing and singing to be near Allah. [/QB]
so its based on assumption and not actual verses. How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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A person coming to the Middle East to learn something about the tariqa is likely, at some point in his visit, to see the brethren in the hadra or “public dhikr” as it has been traditionally practiced by generations of Shadhilis in North Africa under such sheikhs as al-‘Arabi al-Darqawi, Muhammad al-Buzidi, and Ahmad al-‘Alawi before being brought to Damascus from Algeria by Muhammad ibn Yallis and Muhammad al-Hashimi at the beginning of this century.
Upon entering the mosque, one will see circles of men making dhikr (women participants are screened from view upstairs) standing and holding hands, now slightly bowing in unison, now moving up and down with their knees in unison, the rows rising and falling, breathing in unison, while certain of them alternate at pacing around their midst, conducting the tempo of the group’s motion and breathing with their arms and step. Singers near the sheikh, in solo or chorus, deliver mystical odes to the rhythm of the group; high, spiritual poetry from masters like Ibn al-Farid, Sheikh Ahmad al-‘Alawi, ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Himsi, and our own sheikh.
Though a very stirring experience, it is meticulously timed and controlled, and as with all group dhikrs, the main adab or “proper behaviour” is harmony. No one should stand out in any way, but rather all subordinate their movement, breathing, and dhikr to that of the group. The purpose is to forget one’s individuality in the collective sea of spirits making dhikr in unison. Individual motives, thoughts, and preoccupations are momentarily put aside by means of the Sacred Dance, of moving together as one, sublimating and transcending the limitary and personal through the timelessness of rhythm, conjoined with the melody of voices singing spiritual meanings.
It is an experience that joins those travelling towards Allah spiritually, socially, and emotionally. Few forget it, and visitors from the West to whom it is unfamiliar sometimes wonder if it is a bid‘a or “reprehensible innovation,” as it was not done in the time of the earliest Muslims, or whether it is unlawful (haram) or offensive (makruh); and why they see the ulama and righteous attending it in Damascus, Jerusalem, Aden, Cairo, Tripoli, Tunis, Fez, and wherever there are people of the path.
I was one of those who asked our sheikh about the relation of the hadra to the shari‘a or “Sacred Law” which is the guiding light of our tariqa. As Muslims, our submission to the law is total, and there are no thoughts or opinions after legally answering the question “Does the hadra agree with orthodox Islam?”
Because it comprises a number of various elements, such as gathering together for the remembrance of Allah (dhikr), singing, and dancing, we should reflect for a moment on some general considerations about the Islamic shari‘a before discussing each of these separately.
First, the Islamic shari‘a furnishes a comprehensive criterion for all possible human actions, whether done before or never done before. It classifies actions into five categories, the obligatory (wajib), whose performance is rewarded by Allah in the next life and whose nonperformance is punished; the recommended (mandub), whose performance is rewarded but whose nonperformance is not punished; the permissible (mubah), whose performance is not rewarded and whose nonperformance is not punished; the offensive (makruh), whose nonperformance is rewarded but whose performance is not punished; and the unlawful (haram), whose nonperformance is rewarded and whose performance is punished.
Now, Allah in His wisdom has made the vast majority of human actions permissible. He says in surat al-Baqara, “It is He who has created everything on earth for you” (Koran 2:29), which establishes the shari‘a principle that all things are mubah or permissible for us until Allah indicates to us that they are otherwise. Because of this, the fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) did not do this or that particular practice does not prove that it is offensive or unlawful, but only that it is not obligatory.
This is the reason that when shari‘a scholars speak of bid‘a, they do not merely mean an “innovation” or something that was never done before, which is the lexical sense of the word, but rather a “blameworthy innovation” or something new that no legal evidence in Sacred Law attests to the validity of, which is the shari‘a sense of the word. The latter is the bid‘a of misguidance mentioned in the hadith “The worst of matters are those that are new, and every innovation (bid‘a) is misguidance” (Sahih Muslim. 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 2.592: 867), which, although general in wording, scholars say refers specifically to new matters that entail something offensive or unlawful.
Imam Shafi‘i explains:
New matters are of two kinds: something newly begun that contravenes the Koran, sunna, the position of early Muslims, or consensus of scholars (ijma‘): this innovation is misguidance. And something newly inaugurated of the good in which there is no contravention of any of these, and is therefore something which although new (muhdatha), is not blameworthy. For when ‘Umar (Allah be well pleased with him) saw the [tarawih] prayer being performed [in a group by Muslims at the mosque] in Ramadan, he said, “What a good innovation (bid‘a) this is,” meaning something newly begun that had not been done before. And although in fact it had, this does not negate the legal considerations just advanced [n: i.e. that it furnishes an example of something that ‘Umar, who was a scholar of the Sahaba, praised as a “good innovation” despite his belief that it had not been done before, because it did not contravene the broad principles of the Koran or sunna]
As for the practice of Muslims gathering together for group dhikr or the “invocation of Allah,” there is much evidence of its praiseworthiness in the sunna—aside from the many Koranic verses and the hadiths establishing the general merit of dhikr in every state—such as the hadith related by Bukhari:
Truly, Allah has angels going about the ways, looking for people of dhikr, and when they find a group of men invoking Allah, they call to one another, “Come to what you have been looking for!” and they circle around them with their wings up to the sky of this world.
Then their Lord asks them, though He knows better than they, “What do My servants say?” And they reply, “They say, Subhan Allah (“I glorify Allah’s absolute perfection”), Allahu Akbar (“Allah is ever greatest”), and al-Hamdu li Llah (“All praise be to Allah”), and they extoll Your glory.”
He says, “Have they seen Me?” And they answer, “No, by Allah, they have not seen You.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen Me?” And they say, “If they had seen You, they would have worshipped You even more, glorified You more, and said Subhan Allah the more.”
He asks them, “What do they ask of Me?” And one answers, “They ask You paradise.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, My Lord, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have been more avid for it, sought it more, and been more desirous of it.”
Then He asks them, “From what do they seek refuge?” And they answer, “From hell.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have fled from it even more, and been more fearful of it.”
He says, “I charge all of you to bear witness that I have forgiven them.” Then one of the angels says, “So-and-so is among them, though he is not one of them but only came for something he needed.” And Allah says, “They are companions through whom no one who keeps their company shall meet perdition”
(Sahih al-Bukhari. 9 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint (9 vols. in 3). Beirut: Dar al-Jil, n.d., 8.107–8: 6408).
The last line of the hadith shows the highest approval for gatherings of dhikr in the religion of Allah. Some other accounts transmit the condemnation of Ibn Mas‘ud (Allah be well please with him) for gathering together to say Subhan Allah (perhaps out of fear of ostentation), but even if we were to grant their authenticity, the above hadith of Bukhari, containing the explicit approval of such gatherings by Allah and His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) suffices us from needing the permission of Ibn Mas‘ud or any other human being.
Further, the explicit mention of the various forms of dhikr in the hadith suffice in reply to certain contemporary “re-formers” of Islam, who attempt to reduce “sessions of dhikr” to educational gatherings alone by quoting the words of ‘Ata' (ibn Abi Rabah, Mufti of Mecca, d. 114/732), who reportedly said,
Sessions of dhikr are the sessions of [teaching people] the lawful and unlawful, how you buy, sell, pray, fast, wed, divorce, make the pilgrimage, and the like. (Nawawi: al-Majmu‘: Sharh al-Muhadhdhab. 20 vols. Cairo n.d. Reprint. Medina: al-Maktaba al-Salafiyya, n.d., 1.21).
Perhaps ‘Ata' intended to inform people that teaching and learning shari‘a are also a form of dhikr, but in any case it is clear from the Prophet’s explicit words (Allah bless him and give him peace) in the above hadith that “sessions of dhikr” cannot be limited to teaching and learning Sacred Law alone, but primarily mean gatherings of Muslims to invoke Allah in dhikr.
As for dancing, Imam Ahmad relates from Anas (Allah be well pleased with him), with a chain of transmission all of whose narrators are those of Bukhari except Hammad ibn Salama, who is one of the narrators of Muslim, that the Ethiopians danced in front of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace); dancing and saying [in their language], “Muhammad is a righteous servant.” The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “What are they saying?” And they said, “‘Muhammad is a righteous servant’”
Other versions of the hadith clarify that this took place in the mosque in Medina, though in any case, the fact that dancing was done before the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) establishes that it is mubah or “permissible” in the shari‘a, for if it had been otherwise, he would have been obliged to condemn it.
For this reason, Imam Nawawi says:
Dancing is not unlawful, unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate. And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman”
(Minhaj al-talibin wa ‘umdat al-muttaqin. Cairo 1338/1920. Reprint. Cairo: Mustafa al-Babi al-Halabi, n.d., 152).
This is a legal text for the permissibility of both dancing and singing poetry from the Minhaj al-talibin, the central legal work of the entire late Shafi‘i school. Islamic scholars point out that if something which is permissible, such as singing poetry or dancing, is conjoined with something that is recommended, such as dhikr or gatherings to make dhikr, the result of this conjoining will not be offensive (makruh) or unlawful (haram).
Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning “a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr,” and he replied:
How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, “ … those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides” (Koran 3:191). And ‘A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times” [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, “You resemble me in looks and in character,” dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience.
(al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933–34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).
Now, Suyuti was a hadith master (hafiz, someone with over 100,000 hadiths by memory) and a recognized mujtahid Imam who authored hundreds of works in the shari‘a sciences, and his formal opinion, together with the previously cited ruling of Imam Nawawi in the Minhaj al-talibin, constitutes an authoritative legal text (nass) in the Shafi‘i school establishing that circles of dhikr which comprise the singing of spiritual poetry and dancing are neither offensive (makruh) nor unlawful (haram)—unless associated with other unlawful factors such as listening to musical instruments or the mixing of men and women—but rather are permissible.
To summarize, the hadra of our tariqa, consisting of circles of invocation of Allah (dhikr) conjoined with the singing of permissible poetry and dancing, is compatible with the Sacred Law of orthodox Islam; and when the latter elements facilitate presence of heart with Allah (as they do with most people who possess hearts), they deserve a reward from Allah by those who intend them as such. And this is the aim and importance of the hadra in the tariqa.
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
You Tell us from Quran . what if you did not find any thing? Does that prove the incident or disprove it? will you go dancing and say Allah forget to mention it in Quran?
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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Public zekr is something and Hadra is another Thing. Can you translate the Hadra to me in English?
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Are you Sufi,*D*?
No, but I respect their approach to faith, and it makes way more sense to me than the hateful and sickening ideology of the Salafis, which is the opposite of everything Islam stands for.
And, yeah, I might go and visit a "Sufi party" at some point. It sounds very interesting and appealing.
Why do you ignore or dodge all questions, btw.? Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
You Tell us from Quran . what if you did not find any thing? Does that prove the incident or disprove it? will you go dancing and say Allah forget to mention it in Quran?
you made a claim you cant back up, im only asking where you get that from.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: Are you Sufi,*D*?
No, but I respect their approach to faith, and it makes way more sense to me than the hateful and sickening ideology of the Salafis, which is the opposite of everything Islam stands for.
And, yeah, I might go and visit a "Sufi party" at some point. It sounds very interesting and appealing.
Why do you ignore or dodge all questions, btw.?
So you are not a sufi, what are you?
I do not ignore question. But I respond when I find myself comfortable.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
You Tell us from Quran . what if you did not find any thing? Does that prove the incident or disprove it? will you go dancing and say Allah forget to mention it in Quran?
you made a claim you cant back up, im only asking where you get that from.
uMM, I made a claim I can't back up. It is you who should provide a proof for presence of dancing and singing in Quran. If you did not find any, My claim will be proven.
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Calling sufi whirling as 'dancing' is like calling salat as 'pysical exercising' . It's how you see it Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Good point, Shah. But that happens when people reject anything unfamiliar and are not interested in taking a closer look, in learning and an exchange of thoughts.
Sadly, that sort of ignorance is becoming more and more common in the Ummah, and it's being actively propagated by conservatives. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
The thing is, they don't read the 'right sources' Dalia. And they don't care the spiritual side of Islam as they are so busy with the rules that created later on. Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
You Tell us from Quran . what if you did not find any thing? Does that prove the incident or disprove it? will you go dancing and say Allah forget to mention it in Quran?
you made a claim you cant back up, im only asking where you get that from.
uMM, I made a claim I can't back up. It is you who should provide a proof for presence of dancing and singing in Quran. If you did not find any, My claim will be proven.
No it is YOU who should provide evidence from Quran for your claim that Aesha did not sing and dance to praise Allah. Stop playing games. If you make a claim you provide evidence.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: The thing is, they don't read the 'right sources' Dalia. And they don't care the spiritual side of Islam as they are so busy with the rules that created later on.
I was listening to a program on public radio that was talking about the conflicts within religions vs the conflicts among religions, including Christianity.
In each religion there is the far right that imposes thier ideas about rules that they feel all "godly" people should follow. We have those who say "no dancing" and other rules. The problem is when they try and enforce their rules on everyone else. It is always these folks who want to make war and destroy the other.
Shah I am with you about the spiritual side. God is greater than religion. It is those who subscribe to the "spiritual" part of their religion from every group who are able to coexist and love each other. I think that we for the most part have the same core idea about God regardless of which religion we proclaim......... The peace keepers. Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: God is greater than religion. It is those who subscribe to the "spiritual" part of their religion from every group who are able to coexist and love each other. I think that we for the most part have the same core idea about God regardless of which religion we proclaim......... The peace keepers.
Agree Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
You Tell us from Quran . what if you did not find any thing? Does that prove the incident or disprove it? will you go dancing and say Allah forget to mention it in Quran?
you made a claim you cant back up, im only asking where you get that from.
uMM, I made a claim I can't back up. It is you who should provide a proof for presence of dancing and singing in Quran. If you did not find any, My claim will be proven.
No it is YOU who should provide evidence from Quran for your claim that Aesha did not sing and dance to praise Allah. Stop playing games. If you make a claim you provide evidence.
Well, My evidence is that there is no Evidence. so that did not happen.
Do you believe in Hadith? Would you please Tell us one simple evidence fom Quran that The name of prophet's wife is aesha?
OR do you believe in Hadith/sunna as well?
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I do not ignore question. But I respond when I find myself comfortable.
Ah. So I guess we'll have to wait until you feel comfortable. When do you guess that will be?
Before responding to you First let me ask Are you sufi? If so, what besic sufi beliefs do you have?
Posts: 218 | From: Giza | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [QUOTE]How do you know prophets wife didnt sing and dance and praise Allah?
You Tell us from Quran . what if you did not find any thing? Does that prove the incident or disprove it? will you go dancing and say Allah forget to mention it in Quran?
you made a claim you cant back up, im only asking where you get that from.
uMM, I made a claim I can't back up. It is you who should provide a proof for presence of dancing and singing in Quran. If you did not find any, My claim will be proven.
No it is YOU who should provide evidence from Quran for your claim that Aesha did not sing and dance to praise Allah. Stop playing games. If you make a claim you provide evidence.
Well, My evidence is that there is no Evidence. so that did not happen.
brilliant logic! There is also no evidence it didnt happen so then it must have.
quote:Do you believe in Hadith?
yes of course, the best hadith was from Allah 45.6 Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADITH will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
quote:Would you please Tell us one simple evidence fom Quran that The name of prophet's wife is aesha?
all this because you are asked for evidence of a claim you made? I dont give a toss what his wives names were, why should I? It makes not one jot of difference to the message.
quote:OR do you believe in Hadith/sunna as well?
Hadith of Allah and sunnah of Allah YES absolutely, do you?
Do you have evidence from Quran or hadith of eating falafel?? NO so why is it sold on every street in Egypt and middle east? According to your logic it should be haram
Do you use a computer? is there evidence in Quran or hadith? NO, according to your logic it must be haram.
Dear Lord I have just about had my fill of idiots Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: I do not ignore question. But I respond when I find myself comfortable.
Ah. So I guess we'll have to wait until you feel comfortable. When do you guess that will be?
Before responding to you First let me ask Are you sufi? If so, what besic sufi beliefs do you have?
Just for once answer a question with an answer and not another question, that is RUDE. Why should it matter what label a person sticks on them before you will answer a question! All this shows is FEAR on your part and an inability to know what the hell you're on about when you make stupid claims about Islam.
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posted
To me the sufi Qustion tear my heart out. For me many sufi writings are amazing I find myself drawn to it in amazing ways.
Yet there are sufi orders that do things that contradict the sayings of the prophet.
This fight between Sunni and Suffi I am all to aware of it for I fight it between myself and me.
Oh God I can not count the times when I looked for a sufi teacher.
In the end I decided to be a Suni-Sufi, to follow what I can of sufism as much as I as a humble incapable person can, as long as it does not contradict with the Sayings of the prophet. To me dancing is where I draw the line, music too is to be used only in moderation.
I think this end to the war in my soul should be share and maybe other Sufis will dampen a bit the parts of their practice that is against the saying of the prophet but at the same time preserving the vast richness and beauty of the Sufi Faith.
Oh Rabbaa Adawiya, in her statements I find the core of my being. The heart of my heart. A moment of peace in my soul.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
Ayisha please to do crucify sunnis, many do not know sufism to judge it, and are just reciting what their shieks of hate recite.
But also you should know that there are Sufi orders that say things like that a fully realized Sufi master is nearly one with God ( some even drop the nearly ) and that his commands are the commands of God.
Sufism is a wide spectrum, the far end of it borders on well I do not want to say what they border on out of respect for both sides.
I am trying to be both sunni and sufi so I am not taking sides only showing that both have merits and both have errors.
The main sunni argument is that if there was something good to be added to islam then the prophet would have come with it. But they forget that most sufis are moderate and that they follow a more spiritual version of the sunna of the prophet, not a different version, but a different vision of it.
Fine line.
The real problem is that many unfaithful sunni shiekhs feal threatened by the sufis and thus amplify the very extreme side of the sufis and forget the moderate sides to create division between us.
Why do we debate, should we not enjoy some of the best sufi sayings?
She prayed: "O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”
We have a sunni mosque in Nasr City with her name, so moderate sufis are totally accepted in sunni faith.
At one occasion she was asked if she hated Satan. Rabia replied: "My love to God has so possessed me that no place remains for loving or hating any save Him."
Posts: 57 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ahab: She prayed: "O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”
That's one of my favourite sayings – such a contrast to the obsession with collecting hassanat many believers seem to be so fond of nowadays.
Rabia al-Adawiyya was a very wise woman. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ahab: Ayisha please to do crucify sunnis, many do not know sufism to judge it, and are just reciting what their shieks of hate recite.
agreed.
quote:But also you should know that there are Sufi orders that say things like that a fully realized Sufi master is nearly one with God ( some even drop the nearly ) and that his commands are the commands of God.
That I can't accept. Not that they say it but that it is fact what they say.
quote:I am trying to be both sunni and sufi so I am not taking sides only showing that both have merits and both have errors.
Isn't that called a 'Muslim'?
quote:The main sunni argument is that if there was something good to be added to islam then the prophet would have come with it. But they forget that most sufis are moderate and that they follow a more spiritual version of the sunna of the prophet, not a different version, but a different vision of it.
Fine line.
If there was anything more good to be added then Allah would have added it, it's not for the prophet to add to what Allah said, like He forgot.
quote:The real problem is that many unfaithful sunni shiekhs feal threatened by the sufis and thus amplify the very extreme side of the sufis and forget the moderate sides to create division between us.
Isn't that what they all do? I mean all followers of 'religion', not just sunni.
quote:Why do we debate, should we not enjoy some of the best sufi sayings?
She prayed: "O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”
Lovely, thank you for that.
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CAIRO: Bringing together an estimated 11 million followers in Egypt, Sufism today is undergoing a transformation: the ages old religious practice which has thus far remained apolitical is fast-delving into the political equation.
Despite the fact that Sufism is still associated with an ascetic and spiritual approach to life, today’s Sufis are no longer the simple folk of yore, in their patchy galabeyas carrying incense burners, crying ‘hayy’ urging people to remember that God is indeed alive.
“Professionals, businessmen and even members of parliament now belong to the various Sufi schools,” Mohsen Fahmy, editor-in-chief of the specialized Sufism magazine Al Tasawof, told Daily News Egypt. A channel slated to launch in 2009 aims to spread moderate Sufi thought.
“Initially the Sufis showed almost no interest in politics because they were bound to a time-consuming routine focused on consolidating moral orientation and closeness to the Almighty, but today many Sufis are involved in politics,” explained Fahmy.
There are about 74 Sufi orders known as “tariquahs.” These include El Shazlia, El Rifaaia, El Mohamadia and El Burhaniya. However followers of these schools argue that Egyptians are Sufis by nature and that many Egyptians are in fact Sufis without necessarily following any of these “turuq” (plural of tariquah).
But Mohamed Fouad Shaker, a Sufism expert and the head of the Islamic Studies Department at Ain Shams University, says that in its essence Sufism was never synonymous with negativism and dependence, which means that Sufi involvement in public activities should not come as a surprise.
“Those dervishes in rags we see in Sufi festivals and celebrations can’t be classified as Sufis. Sufis aren’t socially isolated, but as it stands, Sufism is neither about revolutionary movements nor the resistance against enemies,” said Shaker.
Sufis are known for their love and reverence for Ahl El Beit, the descendants of Prophet Mohamed. They are inclined to moderation rather than compulsory asceticism. They are also known for their honesty and aversion to treachery and deceit.
“While being seen as a remedy for today’s rampant religious extremism, Sufism will soon become a political card,” said Essam El Sawy, a follower of the Burhaniya tariquah.
Lately Sufi followers have been struggling to assert their presence in a way that appears openly political. Despite severe criticism, some Egyptian Sufi Sheikhs attended from April 25 to 27, 2008 the annual International Association of Sufism symposium in California, suspected of being a Shia mouthpiece because the religious affiliation of one of its founders Dr Ali Kianfar.
Another conference was organized this year by the same association and took place in Cairo from Jan. 18 to 21. Titled “Sufi Perspective on World Peace and Responsibility,” the event was attended by officials from the US Embassy in Cairo and a number of foreign diplomats as well as 3,000 representatives of the 74 Sufi tariquahs.
Criticized by the media as an American attempt to promote Sufi thought in order to counter the fundamentalist tendencies in Egypt, the conference recommended the dissemination of Sufi principles through participation in various social and cultural activities.
“With their large gatherings and loyalty to their teachers, the Sufis are a true paragon of the genuine, peaceful religious spirit, but I don’t think they are capable of countering religious fundamentalism,” said Mahmoud Ashour, a Muslim scholar at the Islamic Research Center.
Echoing this view Shaker regretted the fact that Sufi orders lack the qualified scholars necessary for such a mission.
“Their teachers are incapable of discussing problems that require certain understanding and knowledge. They speak of the karamat (supernatural abilities) of a Sufi sheikh. This reflects badly on Sufism,” said Shaker.
He recommends that before assuming such a role, Sufis must prove that they are free of political aspirations or personal interests.
Recently, adherents to several Sufi tariquahs have expressed their unwavering support for the current regime’s policies.
“When [Egyptian] President Mubarak won the presidential elections in 2005, we held two big rallies in Beheira and Aswan to show our support,” said Sufi magazine editor Fahmy.
That support, however, goes back even farther to the time when late President Anwar Sadat was received with much fanfare by the heads of Sufi orders at Cairo Airport after he signed the Camp David Peace Accords with the Jewish state in 1979.
With the exception of Sufi figures like Sheikh Ahmed El-Badawi, who resisted the Crusaders in Mansoura, and El Ezz bin Abdel Salam, a Sufi Imam who declared disobedience against the Sultan of Egypt for his reluctance to wage war against the Crusaders, Sufis have been accused through history of being passive at time of crisis.
In his book “Sufism and Islam” Amr Farroukh wrote: “When the Crusaders attacked Mansoura in the middle of the seventh century, the Sufis convened a big meeting. Do you know why? To read Al Qishiri’s treatise on the miracles of the pious Imams. No wonder then that the colonizers should lavish money and power on the Sufis. This type of Sufism is bound to dampen the spirit of resistance in nations.”
Renowned Sufi scholars Imam El Ghazli, Ibn Arabi and Ibn El Farid had all lived during a period of strife but none of them joined the jihad or invited others to it, according to historical records.
“The Sufis have always been at the forefront of cultural and intellectual jihad, one that could hit its target without producing a single terrorist or shooting a single bullet. To sum it up: we have been invited to appear on the political scene, why should we turn down the invitation?” contended the Sufi editor.
A huge organized group, Egyptian Sufis might pose a threat at a time of crisis once they decide to break their peaceful isolation and play a vital role in political life, analysts argue.
That could be the reason why the sole world superpower is suddenly taking interest in the Sufi orders which could have the potential to develop into a real power due to their large numbers, said one local report.
“Numbers aside, in the Sufis system the murid [follower] fully abides by his teacher’s guidelines and instructions. It isn’t even like the hardliners who could sometimes question their dictator, the Emir of the group.”
Bearing this in mind, we must imagine what would happen if Sufis become a political force led by power-wielding teachers, explained Shaker.
Apart from their association with the US, Sufis’ adoration for Al El Beit has historically caused many to suspect that Shia Egyptians — also known for their excessive love for Prophet Mohamed’s descendants — are using a Sufi camouflage to spread their beliefs and practices.
According to an article that appeared on Al-Arabeya website on September 2005 Mohamed El Derini, a prominent Egyptian Shia activist and writer, had declared that a million Egyptian Shia are practicing their faith under the disguise of Sufi followers.
“We do share the love of Al El Beit with the Shia but we can never allow them to use us to spread their sect in Egypt,” said Fahmy. “We’re aware this is part of a colonial policy of divide-to-rule.
“We don’t deal with the Shia as enemies but their beliefs and practices can never be accepted by us and we continuously warn our followers about how the Shia-Sunni divide has created tensions in the Muslim World,” he continued.
For many Sufis believe, the future of the Muslim world hinges on the spread of Sufi ideals which have offered serenity and psychological relief to Muslims through the ages, as well as peaceful participation in political life at a time when fundamentalists have wreaked havoc and instigated violence likely to endanger Egypt’s stability.
posted
Many people who are drawn to Islam are at first attracted to Sufism and its mystical and relatively tolerant teachings.
The fact is however that Sufism that was created during the eighth and ninth century A.D. was a reaction against the unenlightened, impersonal and draconian nature of Islam. It was then that many Persian thinkers, tried to reform it by searching for deeper mystical meanings in apparently asinine assertions made in the Quran.
The problem with Sufism is that it lacks legitimacy. As William VanDoodewaard says: “For, if the Sufi spiritual quest is to be viewed as legitimate, even within Islam itself, it must be rooted in the Quran and the sunna of Muhammad.”
Andrew Rippin, in his work Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, also states that “Sufis.. in their search for legitimation of their spiritual quest [must show] whether Islam as a religion contained within it a spiritual-ascetic tendency from the very beginning.”
Sufism is a borrowed ideology and invented by the catholically ingenious Persians who did not have the temerity to denounce Islam but instead tried to reinterpret it, dress it with rationality and sugarcoat it with alien un-Islamic philosophies taken from all kinds of sources, Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, Gnostic, Neo-Platonism, Hinduism and even Buddhist to make it toothsome to their own refined mystical palate.
What escaped the ken of the benighted Sufi sages is that Islam cannot be reformed and the Quran is a clear book that cannot be reinterpreted differently from its obvious meaning.
What the Sufis did was teach a different religion but fearing rejection, they claimed it to be the inner message of Islam. Sufis claim that Sufism is the kernel of Islam while the Sharia is its outer shell. The truth is the opposite. The kernel and core of Islam is the Quran, Sufism is only a gloss that masks it.
Eventually Sufis failed to reform Islam. When push comes to shove, a Muslim is a Muslim and Islam is what Muhammad taught and not what Rumi or Attar fantasized.
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Adherents of Sufism, a mystical sect of Islam that has long been popular in Egypt, now see their tolerant traditions threatened by the growth of hard-line Salafism, an Islamic sect that claims to hearken back to the earliest form of Islam. As Salafi groups have been emboldened around the country, Sufis, like Coptic Christians and secular muslims, have come into conflict with the orthodox sect. However, Sufi leaders say they have plans to fight the rising tide of radicalism.
Over the past month, followers of the Salafi movement have been accused of attacking both Muslims and non-Muslim Egyptians in an attempt to impose their strict Islamic views.
In Alexandria, traditionally a stronghold for both Salafi and Sufi groups, at least 16 historic mosques belonging to Sufi orders have been targeted by members of the Salafi movement, who attempted to demolish tombs of important Islamic scholars because they oppose the veneration of saints as heretical. One of the mosques allegedly attacked by Salafis is the historic mosque of al-Mursi Abu al-Abbas, which dates back to the 13th century and is a popular site for visits by Egyptians from across the country.
Alexandria is home to more than 40 historic mosques with tombs belonging to the Sufi movement.
In the Upper Egyptian city of Qena, a group of Salafis allegedly cut off the ear a Coptic man. In area of Fayoum, clashes between “religious people” and vendors at a wine shop lead to one death.
Last week, members of the Salafi movement denied allegations of violence in a statement posting on a website associated with one of Egypt's most influential Salafi preachers. The statement said Salafis preach peaceful methods of change.
Meanwhile, one leading Sufi preacher said that concern over Salafi-inspired violence is justified.
“I don’t underestimate people’s fears concerning Salfis,” said Sheikh Gaber Kasem al-Kholy, the highest-ranking Sufi sheikh in Alexandria. “Of course, Coptic Christians are a main target for those extremists, but we need to speak out about the suffering of the Sufi people who were attacked by the Salafis.”
There are about half a million registered Sufis in Alexandria, which has a population of 4.1 million people. The city contains 36 of Egypt’s 76 registered Sufi orders.
Sitting in a Western-style café at the Imperial Hotel in downtown Alexandria, al-Kholy presented a moderate and modern vision of Sufism. “Sufis believe in good deeds. They don’t force religion on people as the Salafis do. They don’t manipulate religion as the Muslim Brotherhood does.”
In the 18th century, an Islamic scholar in the Arabian Peninsula named Mohamed ibn Abdel Wahhab formulated a strict form of Islam that he claimed conformed to the original values of the religion. He forbade man-made images, art and sculpture, and provided religious support to Arabian rulers in curtailing the rights of individuals and religious minorities.
The Salafi movement has its origins in Abdel Wahhab’s hard-line vision and is relatively new to Egypt, where a more pluralistic version of Islam has flourished much longer.
Al-Kholy, dressed in smart casual Western clothing and apparently unperturbed by the Western music in the café where he sits, sees Salafis as a threat to the Egyptian tradition of tolerance. Salafism “is a Saudi product,” he said, noting that Salafis do not even quote respected Egyptian scholars, but instead defer to their Saudi counterparts.
“Alexandria has been a multi-cultural city," he said. "Throughout history, people here welcomed Islamic scholars from various locations. As for the Salafis, they are people without history. They don’t like Abu al-Abbas. They accuse the great scholar and other Sufi historical figures of heresy.”
Salafis also accuse Sufis of sympathizing with Shia Islam, a main target for Saudi religious propaganda, which describes them as a sect that does not conform to the original Islam.
The issue of scholarship is an important one, al-Kholy said. “What’s alarming is that Salafi preachers don’t practice Ijtihad [progressive legal interpretation], in which they can renew Islamic thinking.”
Even the Sunni Muslim world’s most prominent religious institution is becoming caught up in the struggle between Salafism and more moderate strains. Cairo’s Al-Azhar, which was founded between 970 and 972, has long been the main source for Sunni Islamic learning. Its influence has impacted Islamic thinking throughout the Middle East, Asia and Africa.
This month, the Salafi movement organized a conference at Al-Azhar University, and one of the movement's key figures, Sheikh Yasser Burhamy, accused the Sufi movement of heresy and of being sponsored by the United States.
“That was so silly. Yes we expect them to accuse us of heresy because the Salafis are single-minded people,” said al-Kholy. “But as for the American support, what we did is simply have visits for two American ambassadors in Egypt, a move we thought would introduce them to a moderate version of Islam.”
Francis Ricciardone, the former US ambassador to Egypt, showed great interest in attending various Sufi festivities.
Perhaps most worrying for the Sufi community is Salafi attempts to bring Sufi mosques under Salafi control. “They are now launching a war over mosques. They try to destroy historic mosques with tombs because they’re not Islamic for them, and also they are trying to have a monopoly over mosques,” said al-Kholy.
One of the mosques that Salafis are trying to bring under their control is Qaed Ibrahim Mosque, a gathering point for protesters during the 18-day uprising that lead to the resignation of former President Hosni Mubarak.
Under Mubarak’s rule, both Salafi and Sufi movements were largely apolitical. But Sufis are ready to become engaged with politics, al-Kholy said.
“That’s a historical trend for Sufis, not to clash with the country leaders. It might be a mistake, but now, after the revolution, I do think that this trend is going to change,” said al-Kholy.
Under the former regime, the highest authorities in Egypt’s various Sufi orders publicly backed Mubarak and his former ruling National Democratic Party (NDP).
“We were people without political aims, so we maintained good relations with the regime. In fact, we were totally wrong. The regime was indirectly putting us in an awkward position through its Ministry of Endowments,” argued Al Kholy.
Mubarak gave officials at the Ministry of Endowments full authority for the control of mosques, regulating the appointment of imams and the distribution of financial donations. Mubarak aimed to reduce the influence of extremists, but that strategy was a failure, al-Kholy said.
“Instead of combating extremism, the state was combating moderate Islam and giving mosques to the Brotherhood and Salafis as deals.”
Sufi followers across Egypt, such as in the Delta city of Monufiya and the Upper Egyptian city of Aswan, have filed complaints against the Ministry of Endowments and the public prosecutor, calling for the state to protect historic mosques from Salafi attacks.
“If the state doesn’t give enough time to protecting these sites, we as Sufis have to do something practical, such as establishing a political party to enable us to address our concerns against those extremists,” said al-Kholy, demonstrating how much Sufis may be willing to break with their apolitical past.
“We have a considerable number of followers, and we are willing and able to protect Egypt’s legacy of moderation,” he said.
quote:Originally posted by Once upon a time: [QUOTE]We do not have religious songs or dancing in islam to remember God. What sufis do has no proofs from Quran or Sunna. It is obviously something we do not know about before.
Can you show proofs from Qu'ran or Sunna that throwing a Birthday Party for Mohamed is Islamic?
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posted
Good lord! Why do some people think that anything beautiful, fun or unusual is unholy (whatever word in whatever language one chooses to use). God created everything and wants us to be HAPPY, he/she/it is not some miserable bean counter that punishes us for every mistake. I follow the Quran as well as I can and it is beautiful, unless you add all of the rubbish made up AFTERWORDS, which illustrates the darkest, most evil and silliest aspects of humanity! Who cares what other people do, we have enough problems dealing with our own faults before pointing out the failings of others! This legislation is the more appalling when you take into account the real issues in Egypt, such as harassment of women, poverty and abuse (not necessarily in that order). This obsession with what others call themselves is also VERY childish and irrelevant! If a question is asked about ones beliefs, the opinions of others shouldn't count unless they are important for explanatory purposes!
Posts: 195 | From: Nottingham, England | Registered: Jan 2009
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The recent spate of violent attacks by Salafists in Egypt against shrines sacred to Sufis gives an insight into how the puritanical branch intends to interact with the rest of society
posted
Stephie, I fully agree with your post. Well said!
The Salafis hate everyything related to beauty, joy, happiness, freedom, spirituality, creativity, equality. To me, their ideology is the antithesis of everything God/faith stands for. I wouldn't have a problem with that if they simply lived according to their beliefs and wouldn't bother others, but I despise the bullying, the intolerance, and the attempts to convince everyone that they should live the same life, and stick to the same absurd rules, restrictions, and beliefs.
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