So i was in Turkey last Sepetmeber, i stayed in Istanbul for a week, Istanbul really reminded me of Cairo, same old style buildings, but they actually repaint them and keep them clean! They look beautiful! People were pretty friendly, i had a great time, i would not mind living in Turkey! Perfect balance of Islam too, I think you could raise your kids very well there! There is no Extremism, or crazy Nikabi's! Ataturk did a good job!
Either way i'm going back again in April Inshaaa Allah! My Girlfriend is from tehre and lives there!
Posts: 511 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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Very pretty girlfriend tarik. you make a nice couple. I think Turkey is beautiful, very nice video!!
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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So i was in Turkey last Sepetmeber, i stayed in Istanbul for a week, Istanbul really reminded me of Cairo, same old style buildings, but they actually repaint them and keep them clean! They look beautiful! People were pretty friendly, i had a great time, i would not mind living in Turkey! Perfect balance of Islam too, I think you could raise your kids very well there! There is no Extremism, or crazy Nikabi's! Ataturk did a good job!
Either way i'm going back again in April Inshaaa Allah! My Girlfriend is from tehre and lives there!
wow, "ataturk did a good job"?
Ataturk was a sell out. A man who sold out on his own culture, his own religion, everything that he was. He was a man with an inferiority complex, and he is the equivalent of the "Self hating jew" .
He actually believed that Roman Script was Superior to Arabic Script. He actually believed that Western Garments were Superior to indigenous Turkish Garments. He actually believed in the racist, Orientalists ideas the Europeans spat on the East- Ataturk was a stupid monkey who hated non-white,non-western, non- secular people, everything that the Turkish people were- until he TRIED to emulate a Western people who hated him and his people.
And the West STILL does not accept Turkey as one of them, and they never will. Maybe its because of the fact that Ataturks IDIOTIC obsession with nationalism created an intolerant culture in Turkey where "UNTURKISHNESS" is punishable by the law. Kurds couldnt be kurds until recently, b/c it was un-turkish, according to Ataturk. Or maybe the West will never accept Turkey because they know the truth- that Turkey has a different culture from Western Europe, a different history, and a different religion, and it always will.
And just for your info, Turkey has seen a heavy rise in Islamic practice and belief, and the legalization of Hijab in universities is only the first step. If turkey has one problem which is keeping it from being what it could be, its obsession with nationalism.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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Hebbah you dont' understand anything about anything! Turkey at that time was getting invaded by Greece and the Allied powers, Ataturk saved it from all this.
As for the Script, Don't forget that turks at that time were mixed from the ottoman empire, most people could never learn Arabic script and most knew the easy Latin Alphabet and that is why ataturk did that!
The Turkish Culture has not been effected, have you ever been there? The only thing that has changed is they didn't wear turbins and their women took off the Veil!
The man was a Great man and he saved Turkey! Plus you have no right to dictate what turkeys problem is, Turks LOVE ATATURK, and its obvious why!
Ataturk may have have been an extremist secular, but think about the Hijab in Egypt, till the 80's it was very rare then all of a sudden it became a trend and now WHAT, NOW THE NIKAB!
The man also abolished the Khalifite which was already defunct and didn't mean a thing, he did this to concentrate on his OWN COUNTRY and his OWN PEOPLE, and look at what turkey is Now, mainly because of him!
Ofcourse the man was a dictator in some sense and again i agree he was an extremist, but overall he was what turkey NEEDED!
As far as being a great leader and someone who loves their country ATATURK is my hero!! If we can only have an Ataturk in Egypt i think we would be in a different place!
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I wonder for how many times Hibbah has been to Turkey and how many books he/she read about Ataturk? What made him/her to talk that much negative about Turkey? What is his/her real origin?
I have a recommendation for you, get books about Gallipoli War in 1915 and our Independence War between 1919-1922. You will understand who Ataturk is and who Turks are.
And stop considering the Kurds as innocent liberty warriors. You cannot know what the reality is by reading a few anti-Turkey articles.
By the way, 'west' doesnt mean 'everything'for us or Egypt or other Middle Easterns. We all realized our own power. And changing rapidly. But some silly westerners still think that they are the first class people of the world and people from Middle East are still living in the Stone Age life conditions
Tarek, I think Hibbah was jeolous about your video. Turkey in his mind was completely different than the one on your video.
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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I was there in December, loved it, loved it and loved it. I guess it only matters what the Turks feel about Ataturk and in their minds he is a hero which is why anyone caught degradating him in anyway could face jail time. Like the writer Orhan Pamuk who left the country rather than face jail time. The Turks are strong nationalists who are very proud of their country so I am sure they don't care what the rest of us think! They all want to become members of the EU and move forward...this is 2008!
Posts: 206 | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sharazat, people just make quick irrational judgments because they only associate Ataturk with being anti Islam! They don't understand ANYTHING ELSE he had done for that country that was barely hanging on before ataturk came to power! I'm sure Hibbah has never ever been to Turkey!
While again i agree that Ataturk was a dictator and an Extremist that does not mean he was one of the most amazing leaders of his time! What he did was what had to happen in that country at that time!
For example if i took control of Egypt, even though i'm a PROUD MUSLIM who prays and is very respectful of his Religion i would launch a campaign to OUTLAW THE NIKAB, to make sure all IMAMAS at Mosques do not encourage kids to become extremists and so on, i would promote science and the arts and moderenity and YES I WOULD LOOK TO THE WEST for those things BECAUSE in the west is where those things flourish!
This would not mean i'm anti islamic or anything, but some people would try to put it that way...they would probably go as far as calling me a zionist .... just as they did Ataturk! But Ataturk didn't care what anyone thought he just LOVED HIS COUNTRY SO MUCH, the lived, Breathed and died TURKEY!!
quote:Originally posted by Shahrazat: I wonder for how many times Hibbah has been to Turkey and how many books he/she read about Ataturk? What made him/her to talk that much negative about Turkey? What is his/her real origin?
I have a recommendation for you, get books about Gallipoli War in 1915 and our Independence War between 1919-1922. You will understand who Ataturk is and who Turks are.
And stop considering the Kurds as innocent liberty warriors. You cannot know what the reality is by reading a few anti-Turkey articles.
By the way, 'west' doesnt mean 'everything'for us or Egypt or other Middle Easterns. We all realized our own power. And changing rapidly. But some silly westerners still think that they are the first class people of the world and people from Middle East are still living in the Stone Age life conditions
Tarek, I think Hibbah was jeolous about your video. Turkey in his mind was completely different than the one on your video.
Shahrazat, Excuse me for coming off harsh but, My education is concentrated on the areas of post-colonialism, the fall of the ottoman empire, orientalism, and the rise of nationalism in post-colonial countries. I have a major in middle eastern studies, political science, and a history minor, So I think I'm allowed to have an educated opinion on such a topic.
I didnt even WATCH the video,lol, I'm sure its nice, since the Alexandria one was.
What I said had to do with Tareks praise (puke) of Kemal Mustafa and his eradiction of Islamic and Eastern Culture in Turkey. If you, or anyone else, would like to defend His sick ideas, you have a problem with Islam, and non-western society.
If you think that I actually meant that All Middle Easterners worship the West, you need to read what I wrote again. I believe that the majority of people in these regions respect and love their own country, their own religions, and their own culture.
And I don't believe any ethnic group or group of people to be innocent, including the Kurds. But I do know that Kemal Mustafa's policies allowed for a glossing over of diversity in Turkey. Its NOT right for any government or leader to Oppress an ethnic people because they are a minority.
Do you think it is? And not permitting a people to study their own language in schools, to not have their own newspapers, to not have their own newscasts in their language- are all steps to assimilating and demolishing a group. These are all policies, UNTIL RECENTLY, that Turkey had against the Kurds. Again- in Turkey, you can be punished for being "unturkish", which includes critizing or making fun of the ataturk,lol.
Calling my statements "anti- turkish" is unfair, and immature- I have nothing but love for a country of such historical and cultural significance- b/c I criticize a sick political leader of the past, who worshipped the west (And are you under the impression that he DIDNT?) Are you going to tell me that the man did not BAN the arabic script, and took the roman script instead, that he did not ban the wearing of turkish clothing, that he did not ban such titles as "pasha", that he wasnt the single man responsible for abolishing the caliphate, yes he secularized Turkey.
And You do know that there were fools just like Kemal in Egypt, one Pasha from the Ottoman Empire who decided that Egypt was "NO LONGER AFRICA, BUT EUROPE"
As for my background, I'm am American Muslim of Pakistani Heritage. I'm not ashamed of Islam, or My culture. Unlike some people, I'm not afraid of my religion, or people who actually practice it. I do not hate women in hijab, or women in niqab, or men who pray five times a day, or muslims who dont drink alcohol. I don't view practicing Muslims, or Muslims who are more observant than I am, as a threat.
It is my experience, that some individuals from Muslim countries tend to be more obsessed with ideas of Nationalism, than with their religion. This is what I see when I hear Tarek praise a Nationalist leader who put "Turkishness" in fron of Islam.
Tarek is actually the equivalent of a Kemalist Turk, hes just a product of Egypts socialism and attempts at putting Islam in a back seat. Forgive me if im wrong Tarek.
But just like Egypt's leaders failed at removing Islam's role from the peoples lives, so did Turkey. And slowly yet surely, the Turkish people have reclaimed their heritage.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TAREK307: Hebbah you dont' understand anything about anything! Turkey at that time was getting invaded by Greece and the Allied powers, Ataturk saved it from all this.
As for the Script, Don't forget that turks at that time were mixed from the ottoman empire, most people could never learn Arabic script and most knew the easy Latin Alphabet and that is why ataturk did that!
The Turkish Culture has not been effected, have you ever been there? The only thing that has changed is they didn't wear turbins and their women took off the Veil!
The man was a Great man and he saved Turkey! Plus you have no right to dictate what turkeys problem is, Turks LOVE ATATURK, and its obvious why!
Ataturk may have have been an extremist secular, but think about the Hijab in Egypt, till the 80's it was very rare then all of a sudden it became a trend and now WHAT, NOW THE NIKAB!
The man also abolished the Khalifite which was already defunct and didn't mean a thing, he did this to concentrate on his OWN COUNTRY and his OWN PEOPLE, and look at what turkey is Now, mainly because of him!
Ofcourse the man was a dictator in some sense and again i agree he was an extremist, but overall he was what turkey NEEDED!
As far as being a great leader and someone who loves their country ATATURK is my hero!! If we can only have an Ataturk in Egypt i think we would be in a different place!
To be fair, some of Kemal Mustafas reforms were neccesary, and intelligent. Such as abolishing the roles of the janissaries, and basically eliminating a type of feudalism the coutry was suffering from, i.e. the pashas- which always keeps a country in the middle ages.
But he took it too far. Tarek, the Arabic script had was not used by anatolian Turks, yes, but it was adopted by the Ottoman Empire and it was used as the state language. It was adopted and grew into its own unique style. The same occurred in Iran, and in others parts of the Muslim world. The arabic script has always been viewed as part of a Muslim identity, even in Pakistan, there are indeginous languages which are written both in arabic script and in sanskrit, and the Muslim population only uses the arabic script.
Theres no justification for Kemal Mustafas adoptation OF Roman script. The majority of the people most certainly DID NOT, and were not familiar with Roman script. He adopted the script- again- in an attempt at Turkish Nationalism- he pushed for a complete reform of the language- Turkish VS Arabs, and by getting rid of the arabic script, the purpose was to refine the Turkish language to what it was prior to the ottoman empire- free from such a heavy Arabic influence.
And even THATS a copout- b/c if he wanted Turks to return to original Turkishness, why not use the script which was used before Arabic? B/c THAT script was also eastern, and what better way for turkey to enter into the west than to use the alphabet which the westerners used?
And why would you want an ataturk? Don't you have a Nasser? I think Egypt already attempted reform, the people seem to want something else.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TAREK307: Sharazat, people just make quick irrational judgments because they only associate Ataturk with being anti Islam! They don't understand ANYTHING ELSE he had done for that country that was barely hanging on before ataturk came to power! I'm sure Hibbah has never ever been to Turkey!
While again i agree that Ataturk was a dictator and an Extremist that does not mean he was one of the most amazing leaders of his time! What he did was what had to happen in that country at that time!
For example if i took control of Egypt, even though i'm a PROUD MUSLIM who prays and is very respectful of his Religion i would launch a campaign to OUTLAW THE NIKAB, to make sure all IMAMAS at Mosques do not encourage kids to become extremists and so on, i would promote science and the arts and moderenity and YES I WOULD LOOK TO THE WEST for those things BECAUSE in the west is where those things flourish!
This would not mean i'm anti islamic or anything, but some people would try to put it that way...they would probably go as far as calling me a zionist .... just as they did Ataturk! But Ataturk didn't care what anyone thought he just LOVED HIS COUNTRY SO MUCH, the lived, Breathed and died TURKEY!!
I'm glad you admit that he was a dictator and an extremist.
Do you understand the nature of such nationalism? Where people are willing to live and die for a flag and borders which were created in the 20th century? Do you admire such patriotism?
Or do you think people who hold their flag at such a height are kinda crazy? What if a person has the same feelings for his religion, as oppossed to a country?
Do you think its better to live and die for a flag, or for your religion? Because sometimes you can't have both.
The reason you can't have both is because some will say that if you give all of your heart and soul to a country (say Kemal Mustafa), you can't give your heart to a religion (Islam, i.e., getting rid of the Khalifa, putting Race (turk vs arab,kurd, armenian,persian) over Faith, getting rid of Islamic councils, Islamic law, rules and regulations found in the Quran and Hadith, and taking up a western law instead (kemal adopting some swiss model of a constitution).
You say that people hate Kemal Mustafa because they say hes anti-Islamic, but he was. B/C he knew that a Modern Secular State could never be achieved with Islam, b/c Islam does not differentiate between the Church and the State. Theres an Islamic way to live all aspects of our lives.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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Hibbah, people such as yourself are so narrow minded and can't think logically! You try to involve religion in aspects it does not need to be involved in. Simply to you, moderenity, science and so are not good because you actually think that we are going against our religion by trying to achieve them. Thats very typical thought of someone who is narrow minded! The first 5 or 6 Khalifs were the only true khalifs, after that most were just Kings! and living under them most of the time meant enslavement!!
Religion is and will always be in our hearts and the way we act. no one ever said Alcohol was fine and that people like me are scared of someone who prays, where do you come with such silly accusations, i myself pray 5 times daily and el hamd lilah I havn't drank in almost 3 years!
Nationalism and Secularism are the only way to improve our improvished nation of Egypt!
ps: How could you even support the Kurds who have been blowing things up in turkey for many years,,,It almost seems that as long as you blow people up you are accepted by Muslims..how silly!! The Kurds are Rebels and terrorists to the turks..
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Your video is really nice, Tarek307! And indeed, Turkey is a beautiful and hospitable country with some rather unique people. Posts: 820 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I actually love Turkey and yes I have been there, what I think is a shame are Muslim countries that abandon aspects of their religion because they believe its 'progressive' and so imitate aspects of Western cultures. I think that is very very sad. You do not need to drink, go clubbing or wear skimpy or revealing clothes to be a 'modern muslim', similarly, those that chose to hold on to Islam and abandon the above choices does not mean that they are 'behind the times'. Islam can be modern without selling out and this goes for individuals AND entire countries.
Posts: 918 | From: Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs: Hibbah, I love your posts.
I actually love Turkey and yes I have been there, what I think is a shame are Muslim countries that abandon aspects of their religion because they believe its 'progressive' and so imitate aspects of Western cultures. I think that is very very sad. You do not need to drink, go clubbing or wear skimpy or revealing clothes to be a 'modern muslim', similarly, those that chose to hold on to Islam and abandon the above choices does not mean that they are 'behind the times'. Islam can be modern without selling out and this goes for individuals AND entire countries.
BRAAAAAAAAAAAVO!! perfect answer!!! and that is the problem with Muslims like Hibba, exactly! they think WRONG!
Posts: 511 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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There is an imperial heritage behind Turkey and this heritage gives Turkey a big diversity of cultural affairs.But Islamic way of life is the most dominant part of people's lives in Turkey for centuries.Ataturk wanted to establish a secularist way of life in Turkey that this is suitable for characteristics of Turkish people.Actually Ottoman empire never obliged people about their beliefs and way of life.
Posts: 68 | From: France | Registered: Jan 2007
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the legalization of Hijab in universities is step for freedom of people.There is nothing much more than this.Kurdish people are original citizens of Turkey and They have equal rights like anybodyelse in Turkey.Turkey has a big potential for being a leader country for Islamic and Turkish originated countries.Some leading countries in the world don't want Turkey as a developed country.And they support terrorism in Turkey.Turkish and Kurdish people have been living together for centuries brotherly, no problem between them.
Posts: 68 | From: France | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by sharmingirl: .Turkish and Kurdish people have been living together for centuries brotherly, no problem between them.
wow it looks like your a pshycic!! what do you mean living together with no problems..ever hear od the PKK which has been doing bombings in turkey for years now!! What is it with you people, don't you understand what the hell it means when a group blows up your cities..they are freaking TERRORISTS!!
Posts: 511 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TAREK307: Hibbah, people such as yourself are so narrow minded and can't think logically! You try to involve religion in aspects it does not need to be involved in. Simply to you, moderenity, science and so are not good because you actually think that we are going against our religion by trying to achieve them. Thats very typical thought of someone who is narrow minded! The first 5 or 6 Khalifs were the only true khalifs, after that most were just Kings! and living under them most of the time meant enslavement!!
Religion is and will always be in our hearts and the way we act. no one ever said Alcohol was fine and that people like me are scared of someone who prays, where do you come with such silly accusations, i myself pray 5 times daily and el hamd lilah I havn't drank in almost 3 years!
Nationalism and Secularism are the only way to improve our improvished nation of Egypt!
ps: How could you even support the Kurds who have been blowing things up in turkey for many years,,,It almost seems that as long as you blow people up you are accepted by Muslims..how silly!! The Kurds are Rebels and terrorists to the turks..
Tarek, You need to learn how to debate an issue. You don't debunk someones argument as being "Stupid", just because you don't agree. Because if thats what was up, you'd be the biggest idiot I'd run across in a while
The Kurds are an oppressed people. If you deny that, you need a reality check. Ever wonder WHY kurds are blowing things up in Turkey? Huh? Good God Tarek, use your brain. Do you believe that the Palestinians are a wortheless people, and deserve the crap that they get from the Israelis? Do you brush them off as "Terrorists"? Do you believe the Algerians deserved the crap they got from the French? Should they have sat around, had the French deny them THEIR language, and treat them as second class citizens? Or should they have fought, and fought as they had to. Or would you have called them terrorists?
People usually have a reason to do what they do.
Again, what would YOU do if your government told you, YOU CAN NO LONGER SPEAK ARABIC, LISTEN TO ARABIC MUSIC, WATCH ARABIC MOVIES, HAVE ARABIC NEWSCASTS, HAVE ARABIC NEWSPAPERS OR LITERATURE?
I'm really not going to bother with this point anymore- God forgive you for dismissing your Muslim brothers and sisters so easily. God forgive you for caring that they are Kurds, for more than their being Muslims, or for just being people.
And No, Nationalism is not the only way to improve a country. Nationalism is a drug, and a failed experiment. Nationalism is what almost every third world country is suffering from today.
And, if you ever actually opened up the Quran and read what it said- you'd see that ISLAM does play a role in every part of our lives. The Quran tells you about inheritance laws, about laws and punishment, about how you should treat members of different economic ladders, of how you should associate with non-muslims, or what type of food you should eat, of what type of banking is legal, and illegal- these are all aspects which you cant ignore Tarek, if you are a pracitcing Muslim.
So if YOU think that you can be a Muslim, and sell Alcohol to tourists, you're on crack and you're a bad Muslim. And if You're an Egyptian who thinks that you can open up a a five star resort for tourists, and serve them alcohol, you're a bad Muslim Tarek.
And look Tarek, if you actually think I believe YOU pray five times a day- you're barking up the wrong tree. And you gave up drinking, alhumdulilah, why the hell were you drinking in the first place? And the reason I have my assumptions about you are the following:
People with your mentality- that secularism and nationalism are better than religion- go hand in hand with people who are not observant in their religion.
And plus, those pictures of you in that skanky azz place with that skanky azz girl are still up on this website- and Im sooo sorry, but I just cant imagine you being a pious muslim from those pics. And you've repeatedly said how you "hate" niqaabis, and how theres no niqaab in Islam- which is bull. There are plenty sources which say that Niqaab is a part of Islam- and if a women believes that it helps build her imaan- then thats up to her.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs: Hibbah, I love your posts.
I actually love Turkey and yes I have been there, what I think is a shame are Muslim countries that abandon aspects of their religion because they believe its 'progressive' and so imitate aspects of Western cultures. I think that is very very sad. You do not need to drink, go clubbing or wear skimpy or revealing clothes to be a 'modern muslim', similarly, those that chose to hold on to Islam and abandon the above choices does not mean that they are 'behind the times'. Islam can be modern without selling out and this goes for individuals AND entire countries.
BRAAAAAAAAAAAVO!! perfect answer!!! and that is the problem with Muslims like Hibba, exactly! they think WRONG!
Um, Hello Genius, she likes MY posts. She agrees with me.
You know Mrs, I've seen the same stuff in Pakistan- whose people overall are pretty observant- but whenever we go, we hang out with people from the upper crust- the elite, and theyre pretty disgusting. The kids call themselves Muslims, but they dont pray, they drink, they smoke hashish, and they dress like 20 dollar hookers. And its ridiculous, because they think they're being modern, they think they're imitating the west. I actually had a conversation with a girl who kept telling me she was the Paris Hilton of Pakistan, ROFL!
So theres those people- and then theres the average, religious Pakistani. No, they dont all have big beards, or wear niqaabs, but they fast during ramadan, they dont gamble, they dont drink, they attend jumah prayer, and they keep Islam in all aspects of their lives, including Islamic banking.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: Shahrazat, Excuse me for coming off harsh but, My education is concentrated on the areas of post-colonialism, the fall of the ottoman empire, orientalism, and the rise of nationalism in post-colonial countries. I have a major in middle eastern studies, political science, and a history minor, So I think I'm allowed to have an educated opinion on such a topic.
I didnt even WATCH the video,lol, I'm sure its nice, since the Alexandria one was.
What I said had to do with Tareks praise (puke) of Kemal Mustafa and his eradiction of Islamic and Eastern Culture in Turkey. If you, or anyone else, would like to defend His sick ideas, you have a problem with Islam, and non-western society.
If you think that I actually meant that All Middle Easterners worship the West, you need to read what I wrote again. I believe that the majority of people in these regions respect and love their own country, their own religions, and their own culture.
And I don't believe any ethnic group or group of people to be innocent, including the Kurds. But I do know that Kemal Mustafa's policies allowed for a glossing over of diversity in Turkey. Its NOT right for any government or leader to Oppress an ethnic people because they are a minority.
Do you think it is? And not permitting a people to study their own language in schools, to not have their own newspapers, to not have their own newscasts in their language- are all steps to assimilating and demolishing a group. These are all policies, UNTIL RECENTLY, that Turkey had against the Kurds. Again- in Turkey, you can be punished for being "unturkish", which includes critizing or making fun of the ataturk,lol.
Calling my statements "anti- turkish" is unfair, and immature- I have nothing but love for a country of such historical and cultural significance- b/c I criticize a sick political leader of the past, who worshipped the west (And are you under the impression that he DIDNT?) Are you going to tell me that the man did not BAN the arabic script, and took the roman script instead, that he did not ban the wearing of turkish clothing, that he did not ban such titles as "pasha", that he wasnt the single man responsible for abolishing the caliphate, yes he secularized Turkey.
And You do know that there were fools just like Kemal in Egypt, one Pasha from the Ottoman Empire who decided that Egypt was "NO LONGER AFRICA, BUT EUROPE"
As for my background, I'm am American Muslim of Pakistani Heritage. I'm not ashamed of Islam, or My culture. Unlike some people, I'm not afraid of my religion, or people who actually practice it. I do not hate women in hijab, or women in niqab, or men who pray five times a day, or muslims who dont drink alcohol. I don't view practicing Muslims, or Muslims who are more observant than I am, as a threat.
It is my experience, that some individuals from Muslim countries tend to be more obsessed with ideas of Nationalism, than with their religion. This is what I see when I hear Tarek praise a Nationalist leader who put "Turkishness" in fron of Islam.
Tarek is actually the equivalent of a Kemalist Turk, hes just a product of Egypts socialism and attempts at putting Islam in a back seat. Forgive me if im wrong Tarek.
But just like Egypt's leaders failed at removing Islam's role from the peoples lives, so did Turkey. And slowly yet surely, the Turkish people have reclaimed their heritage. [/QB]
Hibbah, First of all I m not one of those crazy secularists or nationalist. But I think while talking about a man who is in the history and who is respected by a nation, we need to be more careful with our words. Ataturk is accepted to be a genius on military subjects in those years. We have a war called Gallipoli which is like a religion war beside being a national war and Ataturk was the commander and we won that battle. After our independence he needed to choose 1 way. East or west. He chose west and did lots of revolutions. I know we had lots of pains in those years but anyhow Turkish people accepted them and applied them.
Since the Middle Asia period, the Turkish identity is above all things for most of the Turks. As nobody can judge why Spanishs do that silly bull-fighting, we cannot stand when people talking about our nationalism
For me the black sheets, nikab, hijab are parts of Arabic+desert culture. And in these days in Turkey it s just a symbol. I see lots of girls in Turkey and Egypt, they have blue-jeans, tight t-shirts, make-up etc and hijab..so what is this? the upper-side eastern, lower-side European Wearing black sheet, nikap are all like imprisoning Islam to the old ages. We cannot do it to our religion.
Hibbah, first we need to think if the religion is for human or human is for religion. This may not sound good for Islamists but this is another point of view.
By the way Kurds have their own magazines, tvs, radios etc....
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: Shahrazat, Excuse me for coming off harsh but, My education is concentrated on the areas of post-colonialism, the fall of the ottoman empire, orientalism, and the rise of nationalism in post-colonial countries. I have a major in middle eastern studies, political science, and a history minor, So I think I'm allowed to have an educated opinion on such a topic.
I didnt even WATCH the video,lol, I'm sure its nice, since the Alexandria one was.
What I said had to do with Tareks praise (puke) of Kemal Mustafa and his eradiction of Islamic and Eastern Culture in Turkey. If you, or anyone else, would like to defend His sick ideas, you have a problem with Islam, and non-western society.
If you think that I actually meant that All Middle Easterners worship the West, you need to read what I wrote again. I believe that the majority of people in these regions respect and love their own country, their own religions, and their own culture.
And I don't believe any ethnic group or group of people to be innocent, including the Kurds. But I do know that Kemal Mustafa's policies allowed for a glossing over of diversity in Turkey. Its NOT right for any government or leader to Oppress an ethnic people because they are a minority.
Do you think it is? And not permitting a people to study their own language in schools, to not have their own newspapers, to not have their own newscasts in their language- are all steps to assimilating and demolishing a group. These are all policies, UNTIL RECENTLY, that Turkey had against the Kurds. Again- in Turkey, you can be punished for being "unturkish", which includes critizing or making fun of the ataturk,lol.
Calling my statements "anti- turkish" is unfair, and immature- I have nothing but love for a country of such historical and cultural significance- b/c I criticize a sick political leader of the past, who worshipped the west (And are you under the impression that he DIDNT?) Are you going to tell me that the man did not BAN the arabic script, and took the roman script instead, that he did not ban the wearing of turkish clothing, that he did not ban such titles as "pasha", that he wasnt the single man responsible for abolishing the caliphate, yes he secularized Turkey.
And You do know that there were fools just like Kemal in Egypt, one Pasha from the Ottoman Empire who decided that Egypt was "NO LONGER AFRICA, BUT EUROPE"
As for my background, I'm am American Muslim of Pakistani Heritage. I'm not ashamed of Islam, or My culture. Unlike some people, I'm not afraid of my religion, or people who actually practice it. I do not hate women in hijab, or women in niqab, or men who pray five times a day, or muslims who dont drink alcohol. I don't view practicing Muslims, or Muslims who are more observant than I am, as a threat.
It is my experience, that some individuals from Muslim countries tend to be more obsessed with ideas of Nationalism, than with their religion. This is what I see when I hear Tarek praise a Nationalist leader who put "Turkishness" in fron of Islam.
Tarek is actually the equivalent of a Kemalist Turk, hes just a product of Egypts socialism and attempts at putting Islam in a back seat. Forgive me if im wrong Tarek.
But just like Egypt's leaders failed at removing Islam's role from the peoples lives, so did Turkey. And slowly yet surely, the Turkish people have reclaimed their heritage.
Hibbah, First of all I m not one of those crazy secularists or nationalist. But I think while talking about a man who is in the history and who is respected by a nation, we need to be more careful with our words. Ataturk is accepted to be a genius on military subjects in those years. We have a war called Gallipoli which is like a religion war beside being a national war and Ataturk was the commander and we won that battle. After our independence he needed to choose 1 way. East or west. He chose west and did lots of revolutions. I know we had lots of pains in those years but anyhow Turkish people accepted them and applied them.
Since the Middle Asia period, the Turkish identity is above all things for most of the Turks. As nobody can judge why Spanishs do that silly bull-fighting, we cannot stand when people talking about our nationalism
For me the black sheets, nikab, hijab are parts of Arabic+desert culture. And in these days in Turkey it s just a symbol. I see lots of girls in Turkey and Egypt, they have blue-jeans, tight t-shirts, make-up etc and hijab..so what is this? the upper-side eastern, lower-side European Wearing black sheet, nikap are all like imprisoning Islam to the old ages. We cannot do it to our religion.
Hibbah, first we need to think if the religion is for human or human is for religion. This may not sound good for Islamists but this is another point of view.
By the way Kurds have their own magazines, tvs, radios etc.... [/QB]
Shahrazatm I know for a fact that Kurds did not have their own institutions in Turkey until recently.
I'm glad you're not a crazy secularist or nationalist- but again, you're calling someone who practices Islam differently from you an "Islamist" which is western propaganda, bull. Again, just because someone is more observant than you are, doesnt mean that they are wrong, or backward. Niqaab does not equal ancient Islam, no matter how much you with to believe it does.
Personally, most Turkish people I've run across drive me absolutely crazy with their Nationalistic pride- they go NUTS if you try and criticize any element of their country- they call it all "American Propaganda", etc etc, and God forbid that you EVER bring up the Armenian people to a Turkish person with that type of mentality.
Yes, I think its wrong and stupid for a country to not allowed criticisim of its leaders, past and present. And Yes, I think Nationalism is just an idiotic, man made conception made in light of the fall of several empires,
But I think you're allowed to have your opinion, and I'm allowed to have mine, and that being said- peace sister. I'm sure Turkey is a beautiful place, and I'm planning on taking a trip there inshallah with my family this summer.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Hibbah, is the kind of person that just sides with anyone as long as they are Muslim! Kurds blow things up, she loves them, its not their fault..Palestinians invade Egypt and Hamas fight with our OWN border guards and injure them, no PROBLEM, Algerians blowing eachother up for years, its ok!!! EXCUSES EXCUSES...
1)The people getting blown up in Turkey by KURDS are MUSLIMS
2) Hamas is the main reason these days standing in the way of Palestine having a state FOR GODS SAKE THEY KILL EACHOTHER, FATAH vs HAMAS
3) FRANCE HAS BEEN OUT OF ALGERIA FOR YEARS so spare us the BS!
and don't talk about Turks when you DONT EVEN KNOW THEM, try going there first before you start talking like you are so familiar with the topic...The Love Ataturk and always will, the MAN SAVED THEIR COUNTRY from turning back to CONSTANTINOPLE!!
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: Tarek, You need to learn how to debate an issue. You don't debunk someones argument as being "Stupid", just because you don't agree.
I remember you have been asked several times by several members to stop being abusive, arrogant and patronizing in your posts and to stick to a more respectful manner of debating. But you don't care, thus often turning a discussion with you into a nasty quarrel.
You insult, belittle and scream down just about everyone who disagrees with you: Qur'anists are "on crack" and "wack jobs". Queen Rania is "an idiot" because she states publicly that she thinks the veil is not obligatory. You call the bible "a ridiculous book"; people who don't agree with you are called, among other things, "unintelligent", "idiots" or "douche bags" and constantly asked to "knock themselves out". You have made extremely snide remarks to Shebah who is always respectful and diplomatic and you've displayed a very patronizing attitude towards Ayisha which was completely out of line imo.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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QUOTE]Hibbah, We have a war called Gallipoli which is like a religion war beside being a national war and Ataturk was the commander and we won that battle. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Lol the Aussies, are constantly boasting about how brave they were in Gallipoli Posts: 4446 | From: Egyptian in Sydney | Registered: Mar 2005
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*7ayat* today is exactly the day of 93th Commemoration of our Gallipoli War, so grandsons of Anzacs (who died and burried here during the war) are coming from Australia for the ceremonies.
Did you post this reply consciously? Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: Tarek, You need to learn how to debate an issue. You don't debunk someones argument as being "Stupid", just because you don't agree.
I remember you have been asked several times by several members to stop being abusive, arrogant and patronizing in your posts and to stick to a more respectful manner of debating. But you don't care, thus often turning a discussion with you into a nasty quarrel.
You insult, belittle and scream down just about everyone who disagrees with you: Qur'anists are "on crack" and "wack jobs". Queen Rania is "an idiot" because she states publicly that she thinks the veil is not obligatory. You call the bible "a ridiculous book"; people who don't agree with you are called, among other things, "unintelligent", "idiots" or "douche bags" and constantly asked to "knock themselves out". You have made extremely snide remarks to Shebah who is always respectful and diplomatic and you've displayed a very patronizing attitude towards Ayisha which was completely out of line imo.
Lady, is this thread really the place for you to vent your dislike of me and my views of Islam?
If you're trying to pick me out for being nasty on this forum- I'm going to have to call YOU out. This entire forum is filled with rude, odd, and arrogant people, including yourself. I really can't believe that you would be one of the people to call me arrogant, honestly- calling the kettle black here. If I responded in the same way as all the other vicious, angry, and ignorant people have on this forum I'm sorry, but its only expected.
Has it ever occurred to YOU how frustrating it is to deal with people on this forum who OVERWHEMLING do not represent the views of the VAST majority of Muslims in the world? The Muslims on ES are completely out of wack- and I don't really care if it bothers you, or Tarek, who knows jack about Islam, and who sees it as a part of Being Egyptian, rather than something in itself, or any "Quranists" if I tell them that.
Do YOU think its respectful to reject hijab as a part of Islam? OR do YOU think its respectful to call hadiths insignificant, or incorrect, or whatever the hell it is that you, Ayisha, and Humanist say they are? You get SOOO upset at news about FGM, or about Hijab, have you ever thought how other people feel?
You dislike my views of Islam because YOU hate the fact that they represent the majority of Muslims- that YOUR view would be looked at with disgust,shock, rolling eyes, and with laughs WHENEVER you meet a group of Muslims.
ES Muslims are like in a Bizzaro Land- So its FRUSTRATING FOR ME- a practicing Muslim- to deal with people like you- who basically in my opinion, twist the religion, so that it suits YOU. You don't want to wear hijab, so you say its not a part of Islam. You dont want to adhere to hadiths, so you say theyre not a part of Islam. Was it you or HUmanist who was trying to Justify homosexuality in Islam? SERIOUSLY. YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK. On the other spectrum, you have Muslims who unforuntately have less than perfect english, and don't understand how to communicate their beliefs, and ALLLLLLLL you do is ATTACK, AND ATTACK, AND ATTAAAAAAACK! How DARE they preach Islam! How DARE THEY STATE WHAT ALMOST EVERY MUSLIMS (except on ES, cuz this is freak land) BELIEVES!
And the way I address other people on this forum has nothing to do with you. So mind your business. I'm on this forum to ask questions and to read, You can carry on your "quranist" ideas as much as you'd like, I really don't care.
I come on this forum thinking that I would find Muslims whom I could speak with. I wanted to find out about Egyptian culture, and I was glad to find American women who are Muslims and who married Egyptian men. Thats why I'm here. I havent the SLIGHTEST idea what your connection is with Egypt, and once again, I don't care.
Is THIS response arrogant. Most definately. But why should I pretend to like you or your views, when I honestly find them appalling? Why should I pretent to like Ayisha's view of Islam? Why should I pretend to Like Tarek's view of Islam? YOU don't pretend to like mine, thats for sure.
What I DO know is that I get private messages from users who thank me for what I say, or agree with what I say- and they just don't feel comfortable saying them. And what I DO know is that my conscious is clear, ALHUMDULILAH- for not sugar coating my beliefs to be chummy with everyone on ES.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TAREK307: Hibbah, is the kind of person that just sides with anyone as long as they are Muslim! Kurds blow things up, she loves them, its not their fault..Palestinians invade Egypt and Hamas fight with our OWN border guards and injure them, no PROBLEM, Algerians blowing eachother up for years, its ok!!! EXCUSES EXCUSES...
1)The people getting blown up in Turkey by KURDS are MUSLIMS
2) Hamas is the main reason these days standing in the way of Palestine having a state FOR GODS SAKE THEY KILL EACHOTHER, FATAH vs HAMAS
3) FRANCE HAS BEEN OUT OF ALGERIA FOR YEARS so spare us the BS!
and don't talk about Turks when you DONT EVEN KNOW THEM, try going there first before you start talking like you are so familiar with the topic...The Love Ataturk and always will, the MAN SAVED THEIR COUNTRY from turning back to CONSTANTINOPLE!!
GOOD GOD! look at YOU. You're actually blaming the Palestinians. You are the FREAKIN poster boy of Arab nationalism buddy, God save you. And you really have a difficult time connecting the dots, I'm starting to worry about the Egyptian education system. You don't even understand why I brought up Palestinians or the Algerians, do you? Lost cause.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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