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In Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (2020), one of the major aims of the text is to demonstrate--using comparative linguistics, archaeology, comparative religion & anthropology--that ancient Egyptian society was in fact a Bantu society (the earliest attested). In the Introduction, one will discover that the Egyptians called themselves "Bantu" via a dialectical variation written as /rmT/. The details of the sound changes are discussed in the text. Thus, rmT = bantu. Not only in name are the Egyptians a Bantu-speaking people, but they are in mind, body, and soul as evident in the ancient texts, rituals, and mythology of the people. This text, Aaluja Vol. II, will dispel the myths created by lazy researchers who claim that you can't use Bantu languages or cultures to answer questions regarding ancient Egypt. This is put to rest in Aaluja Vol. II as the Egyptians were a Bantu people, spoke a Bantu language, and creatively expressed Bantu philosophy. Pre-Order your copy TODAY! Details below.
posted
Egypt was a Pan-African civilization. Due to the diverse populations living in ancient Egyptian, Mede Neter was a lingua franca made up of the numerous African languages formerly spoken in ancient Egypt.
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posted
Many researchers have recognized that many African civilizations share common cultural features and words with ancient Egypt. This poses the question: "Why do Egyptians and Black Africans share a similar civilization"?.
This question has been answered by Wally. Wally has proven that Egpyt was a Pan-African civilization which was multinational and included many African nationalities.
Secondly, Wally has proven that egyptian was a lingua franca used to unite the multinational Pan-African Egypt with a single means of communication.
These findings by Wally means that we have to see the shared linguistic and cultural features of Black Africans are the result of many of these african nationals living in a Pan-African Egypt.
Great work Wally!
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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This is a by-form of the word dumu "child, son, daughter" as d ~ r interchange in Sumerian; and they are allophones as well.
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posted
We propose that the origin of the Pre-Proto-Bantu is in the Great Lakes region of Africa, not the absolute horn. From there, Proto-Bantu emerges and spreads through central Africa, which I call ciBantu in my book. Middle-Egyptian, Hausa, Bambara, Sumerian, etc., originate and spread from the Sudan.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Is the horn of Africa the geographic origin of Bantu language or was it in West Africa?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: We propose that the origin of the Pre-Proto-Bantu is in the Great Lakes region of Africa, not the absolute horn. From there, Proto-Bantu emerges and spreads through central Africa, which I call ciBantu in my book. Middle-Egyptian, Hausa, Bambara, Sumerian, etc., originate and spread from the Sudan.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Is the horn of Africa the geographic origin of Bantu language or was it in West Africa?
Can you please list the non-Bantu languages of Africa.
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: We propose that the origin of the Pre-Proto-Bantu is in the Great Lakes region of Africa, not the absolute horn. From there, Proto-Bantu emerges and spreads through central Africa, which I call ciBantu in my book. Middle-Egyptian, Hausa, Bambara, Sumerian, etc., originate and spread from the Sudan.
What evidence do you have to support your argument that Proto-Bantu originated near the Great Lakes? How do you explain its apparent relatedness to languages all the way over in West Africa then? Do you think proto-Niger-Congo originated in Central Africa or the Great Lakes region as well?
Also, do you have estimated dates for when these proposed proto-languages developed and diverged?
posted
TYRANNOHOTEP: What evidence do you have to support your argument that Proto-Bantu originated near the Great Lakes?
In linguistics, language origin is believed to be detectible by the presence of the most diversity, and archaic features of a language, in a given area. In biology, this is known in some circles as the principle of least moves. It is believed that Proto-Bantu originates in Southern Nigeria or Northern Cameroon. However, there is no linguistic basis for this other than some hypothetical “bantoid” languages in the area. The archaic features of the language, however, cannot be found in this area of Africa: only along the great lakes. This is discussed, in part, in Mboli (2010), and I address it in my upcoming publication Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (January 2020).
TYRANNOHOTEP: How do you explain its apparent relatedness to languages all the way over in West Africa then?
Part of it is explained in the very image in the initial post. Just as Diop proposed in 1974, Mboli (2010) and I (Imhotep 2016, 2020) propose the great lakes with migrations northward into the Sudan. It is the Sudan that is the dispersal point for Cyena-Ntu (= Negro-Egyptian) languages. We also have to consider the great time depth of languages interacting in Africa, where there are many borrowings and where convergence plays a major role.
TYRANNOHOTEP: Do you think proto-Niger-Congo originated in Central Africa or the Great Lakes region as well?
There is no such thing as Niger-Congo, no matter how many people want to believe it. This language phylum has never been established using the comparative method. It is a hypothesis that has yet to be tested and verified. As of right now, Niger-Congo doesn’t exist, and therefore there can be no ‘origin’ for a mythological language phylum.
TYRANNOHOTEP: Also, do you have estimated dates for when these proposed proto-languages developed and diverged?
You can’t date languages. Period.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: We propose that the origin of the Pre-Proto-Bantu is in the Great Lakes region of Africa, not the absolute horn. From there, Proto-Bantu emerges and spreads through central Africa, which I call ciBantu in my book. Middle-Egyptian, Hausa, Bambara, Sumerian, etc., originate and spread from the Sudan.
What evidence do you have to support your argument that Proto-Bantu originated near the Great Lakes? How do you explain its apparent relatedness to languages all the way over in West Africa then? Do you think proto-Niger-Congo originated in Central Africa or the Great Lakes region as well?
Also, do you have estimated dates for when these proposed proto-languages developed and diverged?
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Just look up Bantu languages online. All the languages that are not listed you could consider non-bantu languages if using standard nomenclature.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Can you please list the non-Bantu languages of Africa. [/QB]
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@Asar Imhotep What do you classify the non-bantu Niger Kordofanian languages as? ...being as NC doesn’t exist in your point of view.
Posts: 1781 | From: New York | Registered: Jul 2016
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posted
Neither Nilo-Saharan, Afro-Asiatic, or Khoisan exists as none of these language phylums were established by the comparative method. So the question is ill-formed.
The languages I use belong to what I call Cyena-Ntu, what Obenga calls Negro-Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: @Asar Imhotep What do you classify the non-bantu Niger Kordofanian languages as? ...being as NC doesn’t exist in your point of view.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Neither Nilo-Saharan, Afro-Asiatic, or Khoisan exists as none of these language phylums were established by the comparative method. So the question is ill-formed.
The languages I use belong to what I call Cyena-Ntu, what Obenga calls Negro-Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: @Asar Imhotep What do you classify the non-bantu Niger Kordofanian languages as? ...being as NC doesn’t exist in your point of view.
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Just look up Bantu languages online. All the languages that are not listed you could consider non-bantu languages if using standard nomenclature.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Can you please list the non-Bantu languages of Africa.
[/QB]
the breakdown is not going to work now because you just said
Nilo-Saharan, Afro-Asiatic and Khoisan don't exist
can you re-key this map please
tan purple brown brick red blue green yellow
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: Neither Nilo-Saharan, Afro-Asiatic, or Khoisan exists as none of these language phylums were established by the comparative method. So the question is ill-formed.
The languages I use belong to what I call Cyena-Ntu, what Obenga calls Negro-Egyptian.
quote:Originally posted by Elmaestro: @Asar Imhotep What do you classify the non-bantu Niger Kordofanian languages as? ...being as NC doesn’t exist in your point of view.
I’m sure you aren’t a fool and have enough foresight to see what’ll come next. In which case, you’re giving us the “run-around.” You are highlighting a possible reconstruction of proto-BANTU, yet on the other hand your dispelling all of greenbergs language families. Bantu is within Greenbergs model, so how do we go about identifying african languages that are NOT bantu by either your, or Greenbergs models? At the very least you should present shared inovations to loosely group non-Cyena-ntu languages in a way that’s consistent with or doesn’t contradict Cyena-NYU languages.
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posted
I will address both "the lioness" and "Elmaestro" in this one post.
Before I answer the linguistic question, you should understand first the issue of classification in languages. The field of linguistics borrows heavily from biology. When we start talking about "genetic" relationships between languages, this is a biological term that has no real correspondence in languages. It is a metaphor we use to distinguish close relationships vs. distant relationships vs. non-relationships. But languages are just ideas. They are sounds and codes people make. No one inherits a language "genetically," so the term is not accurate to linguistics. But we use it with this idea in mind.
Along those same lines, we also borrow the language of classification from biology. The following chart is how biologists classify life on earth.
As you can see, the order, from largest to smallest, is: Life, Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. We have adopted two terms from this list in linguistics: i.e., Phylum and Family. Like in biology, a Phylum is different than a Family. An individual language would be equivalent to a "species" in biological taxonomy. Individual related languages (species) make up a "family." And a "phylum" is a group of "families."
In linguistics, it is believed that the comparative method only allows accurate classification up to 8000 years. After that, the method collapses. Joseph Greenberg attempted to go beyond the "family order" and the limit of 8000 years, by creating the "Phylum" category and using his "mass comparative method." The flaws in the mass-comparative method is beyond the scope of this post. Just know that linguists, outside of the Greenbergian school, whole-heartedly reject the mass-comparative method as it is unscientific.
Thus, when you see labels such as Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, Khoisan, or Afro-Asiatic, these are NOT language "families," these are hypothetical language "phyla." The scientific comparative method is used to establish "families" and has a process in place to eliminate chance as does the scientific method in physics or biology. These four phyla do not exist as the comparative method is not applied.
There is no literature, based on the comparative method, that proves, for example, that Bantu is a "sub-branch" of some mystical "Benue-Congo," which is a "sub-branch" of "Niger-Congo." When you read the literature, they will tell you that there are no alleged innovations in Bantu that separate it, or distinguish it from the rest of the alleged "Niger-Congo" languages. The problem with Africanists linguists is that they are very bad at proving their cases using the comparative method. They only link Bantu with Niger-Congo based on the presence of noun-classes, which is a typological feature. Typological features are not used in linguistics to classify languages. These features are easily borrowed over time due to convergence.
Only a few language families are established by the comparative method in African linguistics. Semitic is one, Bantu is another, and maybe Cushitic. Chadic is disputed. So is West Atlantic. In reality much of Africa is probably made of language isolates if we go by Dimmendal (2011).
What I'm trying to get you to understand is that the Greenberg phyla have no scientific basis. This is why Mboli's model, built on the efforts of Obenga (1993), is so important because his model is based on the comparative method applied to about 14 African languages. I renamed Negro-Egyptian to Cyena-Ntu as is explained in my upcoming book Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (January 2020).
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This is a by-form of the word dumu "child, son, daughter" as d ~ r interchange in Sumerian; and they are allophones as well.
Stop making stuff up.The word for 'male, man' in Sumerian is lu. The root of urum, is 'ur' 'young man, warrior' and etc. Thusly, urum is composed of ur+u+the 1St and 2nd- person terminative ventive /-m/. As a result, urum means 'he is a young man/male'. Finally, you should be comparing ur- to Egyptian rmt. As a result Sumerian ur+um are not cognate to Egyptian rmt.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: We propose that the origin of the Pre-Proto-Bantu is in the Great Lakes region of Africa, not the absolute horn. From there, Proto-Bantu emerges and spreads through central Africa, which I call ciBantu in my book. Middle-Egyptian, Hausa, Bambara, Sumerian, etc., originate and spread from the Sudan.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Is the horn of Africa the geographic origin of Bantu language or was it in West Africa?
You don't know what you're talking about. There is no such thing as pre-Bantu. Please cite the article where pre-Bantu was reconstructed. Stop trying to make it appear that you understand comparative linguistics, when you have never practiced the methods.
This chart makes it appear that Hausa and Bambara are descendant from the Bantu family. This is false why do you post such nonsense?
I am only entering this thread because novices might believe that you know comparative linguistics and use your methods to look foolish.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: Stop making stuff up , u rum does not mean male in Sumerian. The Sumerian term for male/man = lu.
Now, because I falsified your claim, you state:
quote:Stop making stuff up.The word for 'male, man' in Sumerian is lu. The root of urum, is 'ur' 'young man, warrior' and etc. Thusly, urum is composed of ur+u+the 1St and 2nd- person terminative ventive /-m/.
Because you were proven wrong the first time, which is very easy to do, instead of admitting that u.rum means "male" in Sumerian and that I (Clyde Winters) was wrong, now you make up an entirely new argument to try and save face.
The problem, as always with C. Winters, is that he has a reading comprehension problem. Not only does he misread what is actually there, he also makes up arguments against texts that he has not read. This case is the latter.
As I discuss in the text, which I haven't released yet (so Clyde Winters couldn't have read it) is that the root of the word rmT in ciKam (Egyptian) is -r-, with -m being a suffix and -T being a suffix as well. The -r- in rmT is do to a process of rhotization and derives from -z- "person". All forms derive from a root meaning "body" > "penis" > "male" | "engender" > person.
What you will see in the text is that this form of the root goes in two different semantic directions: one dealing with male > person > human-being, and the other engender > child, person, son, daughter, etc. This is a semantax we see all throughout Egyptian terms as well as other African languages.
We see it reflected as well in Sumerian hu-rum "junior, social inferior; children". The h- is a prefix. Sumerian is a monosyllabic, agglutinative language. Note also that l ~ r interchange and are allophones. So the same root in u.rum is lu/mu.lu "who(m), which; man; (s)he who, that which; of; ruler; person." The -m is simply the human class affix, which is either prefixed or suffixed to a root. The sounds d ~ r also interchange and urum is dumu "child, son, daughter."
For everyone else who has intelligence, read the book first. There is a whole discussion on the topic with comparative data. This is why we write academic works, so you don't waste time arguing with internet 'scholars'.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: TYRANNOHOTEP: What evidence do you have to support your argument that Proto-Bantu originated near the Great Lakes?
In linguistics, language origin is believed to be detectible by the presence of the most diversity, and archaic features of a language, in a given area. In biology, this is known in some circles as the principle of least moves. It is believed that Proto-Bantu originates in Southern Nigeria or Northern Cameroon. However, there is no linguistic basis for this other than some hypothetical “bantoid” languages in the area. The archaic features of the language, however, cannot be found in this area of Africa: only along the great lakes. This is discussed, in part, in Mboli (2010), and I address it in my upcoming publication Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (January 2020).
TYRANNOHOTEP: How do you explain its apparent relatedness to languages all the way over in West Africa then?
Part of it is explained in the very image in the initial post. Just as Diop proposed in 1974, Mboli (2010) and I (Imhotep 2016, 2020) propose the great lakes with migrations northward into the Sudan. It is the Sudan that is the dispersal point for Cyena-Ntu (= Negro-Egyptian) languages. We also have to consider the great time depth of languages interacting in Africa, where there are many borrowings and where convergence plays a major role.
TYRANNOHOTEP: Do you think proto-Niger-Congo originated in Central Africa or the Great Lakes region as well?
There is no such thing as Niger-Congo, no matter how many people want to believe it. This language phylum has never been established using the comparative method. It is a hypothesis that has yet to be tested and verified. As of right now, Niger-Congo doesn’t exist, and therefore there can be no ‘origin’ for a mythological language phylum.
TYRANNOHOTEP: Also, do you have estimated dates for when these proposed proto-languages developed and diverged?
You can’t date languages. Period.
quote:Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: We propose that the origin of the Pre-Proto-Bantu is in the Great Lakes region of Africa, not the absolute horn. From there, Proto-Bantu emerges and spreads through central Africa, which I call ciBantu in my book. Middle-Egyptian, Hausa, Bambara, Sumerian, etc., originate and spread from the Sudan.
What evidence do you have to support your argument that Proto-Bantu originated near the Great Lakes? How do you explain its apparent relatedness to languages all the way over in West Africa then? Do you think proto-Niger-Congo originated in Central Africa or the Great Lakes region as well?
Also, do you have estimated dates for when these proposed proto-languages developed and diverged?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: First you state:
quote: Stop making stuff up , u rum does not mean male in Sumerian. The Sumerian term for male/man = lu.
Now, because I falsified your claim, you state:
quote:Stop making stuff up.The word for 'male, man' in Sumerian is lu. The root of urum, is 'ur' 'young man, warrior' and etc. Thusly, urum is composed of ur+u+the 1St and 2nd- person terminative ventive /-m/.
Because you were proven wrong the first time, which is very easy to do, instead of admitting that u.rum means "male" in Sumerian and that I (Clyde Winters) was wrong, now you make up an entirely new argument to try and save face.
The problem, as always with C. Winters, is that he has a reading comprehension problem. Not only does he misread what is actually there, he also makes up arguments against texts that he has not read. This case is the latter.
As I discuss in the text, which I haven't released yet (so Clyde Winters couldn't have read it) is that the root of the word rmT in ciKam (Egyptian) is -r-, with -m being a suffix and -T being a suffix as well. The -r- in rmT is do to a process of rhotization and derives from -z- "person". All forms derive from a root meaning "body" > "penis" > "male" | "engender" > person.
What you will see in the text is that this form of the root goes in two different semantic directions: one dealing with male > person > human-being, and the other engender > child, person, son, daughter, etc. This is a semantax we see all throughout Egyptian terms as well as other African languages.
We see it reflected as well in Sumerian hu-rum "junior, social inferior; children". The h- is a prefix. Sumerian is a monosyllabic, agglutinative language. Note also that l ~ r interchange and are allophones. So the same root in u.rum is lu/mu.lu "who(m), which; man; (s)he who, that which; of; ruler; person." The -m is simply the human class affix, which is either prefixed or suffixed to a root. The sounds d ~ r also interchange and urum is dumu "child, son, daughter."
For everyone else who has intelligence, read the book first. There is a whole discussion on the topic with comparative data. This is why we write academic works, so you don't waste time arguing with internet 'scholars'.
Your arguments lack any foundation. We are talking about the Sumerian term for male and Bantu term for male. As I pointed out above they are not related. No matter what you argue, the root word for Sumerian urum, is ur, and ur is not related to rmt. Egyptian rmt is contructed by the consonants r-m-t. The Sumerian term for male is ur+ u+m . Let's look at the Egyptian root for male 'rm-' and the Sumerian root for male 'ur-'. Even if remove the Egyptian suffix /-t/, from Egyptian rm- , it is not related to Sumerian ur. Clearly, these terms are not related in anyway.
I have studied Sumerian for over 30 years and have published numerous articles on the relationship between African, Dravidian and Mande languages. Stop pretending you know comparative linguistics and the idea Bantu is the origin of Egyptian. As I said earlier Egyptian is a lingua franca.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
In general. But there are other Bantu languages that exist in Sudan and other areas that are not included on the map. Regardless, this has zero to do with the point being made. Did you read and comprehend the point I made in the previous post?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Asar is the area for indicated as Bantu on the map proper?
_________________________
Also Clyde, is this map correct? If not how would you label the colors? Do they have the proper language names above?
Asar is the area for indicated as Bantu on the map proper?
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep: In general. But there are other Bantu languages that exist in Sudan and other areas that are not included on the map. Regardless, this has zero to do with the point being made. Did you read and comprehend the point I made in the previous post?
yes nice post on domains
quote:Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As of right now, Niger-Congo doesn’t exist, and therefore there can be no ‘origin’ for a mythological language phylum.
Only a few language families are established by the comparative method in African linguistics. Semitic is one, Bantu is another, and maybe Cushitic. Chadic is disputed. So is West Atlantic. In reality much of Africa is probably made of language isolates if we go by Dimmendal (2011).
1) So on that map the brown region marked "Niger-Congo" would you classify that under a language family name or is it many language isolates?
2) you said " Only a few language families are established by the comparative method in African linguistics. Semitic is one, Bantu is another"
So would you say the tan region is correct for the location of semetic but the brick red region of Bantu should extend upward to include Egypt? If that was done it would divide the tan into two piece East and West implying they are unrelated.
I think you should make a map so you can clarify the geographic location of languages in Africa. Semitic, Bantu and maybe Cushitic and also some large areas could be marked "various languages"
3)what about Khosian? why isn't that a language family and dialects? Or d o you think Khosian falls within Semitic, Bantu or Cushitic?
4)what family is Nobiin of?
Could you draw up a rough draft of a simple map of the general regions? I think that is reasonable
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote: 1) So on that map the brown region marked "Niger-Congo" would you classify that under a language family name or is it many language isolates?
Some of those languages we would classify as Cyena-Ntu. But a lot of work has to be done in this region. The problem is that Africanists have done a poor job in proven that certain languages are related. There is a lot of assumptions and no comparative works that demonstrate these languages are related. So you have to do the work first, then classify. This I discuss in Chapter 9 of my upcoming text with all the relevant citations on the subject. You will come to discover that Africanists are lazy. So for now, you don't classify any of the languages that have not been demonstrated as so via the comparative method. We are starting from scratch and not making the mistakes Greenberg, Ehret, and the rest of them have made. They have distorted the data and is causing much confusion. You have people trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.
quote: 2) you said " Only a few language families are established by the comparative method in African linguistics. Semitic is one, Bantu is another"
So would you say the tan region is correct for the location of semetic but the brick red region of Bantu should extend upward to include Egypt? If that was done it would divide the tan into two piece East and West implying they are unrelated.
No. I just said that Afro-Asiatic doesn't exist. So anywhere stating the languages Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, Khoisan, or Afro-Asiatic, throw it away. Get it out of your head. Start over. These are not language "families" these are proposals for language PHYLA, which are a "group of families." Once you understand this, your questions will stop.
quote:I think you should make a map so you can clarify the geographic location of languages in Africa. Semitic, Bantu and maybe Cushitic and also some large areas could be marked "various languages"
There has not been any subclassification of Cyena-Ntu as of yet. So we name the languages outright that we have studied. So there is no need for an extravagent map. I just named a few languages in the bere branch of Cyena-Ntu: i.e., ciBantu (the family), Hausa, Bambara, Zande, Yoruba, Meroitic, Middle-Egyptian, and Sumerian. In the beer branch of Cyena-Ntu, we have languages like Somali, Sango, Kalenjiin, Coptic, etc. In the text, the invidividual languages are named.
You first examine a set of languages using the comparative method, then you group theme together if found to all be related. You can label it anything you want (e.g., Language Family 1). You determine the criteria that exist that makes a language belong to this family, which can only be done after a full reconstruction. Then you expand your research with more languages based on the criteria set during the reconstruction. You improve your model, and the more languages you include, then you can start doing things like sub-branching and the like. This is the next step for Cyena-Ntu. For now, the individual languages examined is what makes up the language family. We don't assume any relationships. We go through the steps to prove it.
quote: 3)what about Khosian? why isn't that a language family and dialects? Or d o you think Khosian falls within Semitic, Bantu or Cushitic?
Khoisan is too much to discuss here. You're just going to have to read some books on the issue with Khoisan. Again, like all the other language phylums, there are no commonalities between the languages of Khoisan. They are only grouped together because they have click sounds. That's it. This is a typological feature, and typology can't be used to classify languages. Linguistics 101. Khoisan doesn't exist.
quote:4)what family is Nobiin of?
Don't know enough about Nobiin. Until someone does some serious comparative work with the language, it is up for debate its classification.
quote:Could you draw up a rough draft of a simple map of the general regions? I think that is reasonable
No. Quit being lazy and read the material.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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There is no person "instrumental" in the "development" of ciKam. The word ci.kam is simply the word km.t in the language of ci.luba. It is Bilolo who introduced the term from his language. But there no development: it's just a cognate term.
Posts: 853 | From: Houston | Registered: Nov 2007
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Why are you personally using a ci.luba word i the above chart, ciKam, that has arrows rooted around the horn and Nile valley when the root of ci.luba is around where the DRC is ?
You are using a word that according to your map is descendant of what you call pre-Proto Bantu Wouldn't it be less confusing to use a word from the Ethiopia region?
But also you are still simultaneously using the word "Bantu"
If new words are selected to mean something it will never stick with African Americans except a tiny few in your circle probably unless there is some kind of transition between terms we know and new terms.
You don't have Kmt or Kemet anywhere on this map yet you have "Bantu"
And when you raise the word "Bantu" most people understand the roots of that as being the Cameroon region.
quote:The word Bantu for the language families and its speakers is an artificial term based on the reconstructed Proto-Ntu term for "people" or "humans". It was first introduced (as Bâ-ntu) by Wilhelm Bleek in 1857 or 1858, and popularised in his Comparative Grammar of 1862.
quote:Ntu languages are theorised to derive from the Proto-Ntu reconstructed language, estimated to have been spoken about 4,000 to 3,000 years ago in West/Central Africa (the area of modern-day Cameroon).
But you are saying Proto-Ntu is located on the opposite side of the continent. Then why isn't the heart of Bantu in that region today and if it's not how do we know it began there?
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I am using a ciLuba word because I can. Enough said.
The word kam, and its dialectical variants, are found all over Africa. This is the point of using the modern variation to help with vocalization (a project I am also involved in).
quote:You are using a word that according to your map is descendant of what you call pre-Proto Bantu Wouldn't it be less confusing to use a word from the Ethiopia region?
It's only confusing for those who refuse to read the literature. All is explained in Mboli (2010) (if you read French), Imhotep (2016) and Imhotep (2020). I am not going to read for you. Read the literature, then ask questions.
quote:But also you are still simultaneously using the word "Bantu"
Your point? So did the ancient Egyptians.
quote:If new words are selected to mean something it will never stick with African Americans except a tiny few in your circle probably unless there is some kind of transition between terms we know and new terms.
Speak for yourself. The term is already being used in Africana Studies departments across the country, Brazil, Europe, and Africa. If you don't read, you can't know. Do you see a theme happening here?
quote:You don't have Kmt or Kemet anywhere on this map yet you have "Bantu"
So what? The graphic is about the word rmT and its spread. If one would read the literature, again, you would see that all my graphics have ciKam and Bantu Civilation at the top. The reason is explained in my literature. If you don't read, you won't know.
quote:And when you raise the word "Bantu" most people understand the roots of that as being the Cameroon region.
Not the people who actually read the text. Why? Because all is explained in the text. See the pattern in this discussion?
quote:But you are saying Proto-Ntu is located on the opposite side of the continent. Then why isn't the heart of Bantu in that region today and if it's not how do we know it began there?
Says who? Based on what evidence? Show me the scholar(s) who were able to determine Proto-Bantu's origin in West Africa using the comparative method. I'll wait. And again, read the text.
If you are in the United States, and are interested in the arguments that support the meme above, pre-order your copy and it will arive in January. You get a sample chapter upon purchase to hold you down until January. Details below.
Many people who are interested in my upcoming book Aaluja Vol. II: Cyena-Ntu Religion and Philosophy (2020) ask me what is Cyena-Ntu? The phrase Cyena-Ntu is a label for a language family in Africa. The image below gives a breakdown of its evolution. As we can see here, it begins with Theophile Obenga's (1993) "Negro-Egyptian," which is a label for a proposed language family that includes all of Africa's languages save Khoisan and Berber. From there, the family is narrowed down to a few languages that were actually tested to be related in Mboli (2010). In this text, Negro-Egyptian (N-E) has three phases: Archaic N-E, Classic N-E, and Post-Classic N-E. At around 2010 and 2011, Mubabinge Bilolo introduces Cyena-Ntu as a label. However, not reviewing Mboli's (2010) work, his Cyena-Ntu is basically Obenga's Negro-Egyptian. In Imhotep (2020), I have renamed Mboli's Negro-Egyptian to Cyena-Ntu (after Bilolo (2011)). However, I have narrowed it down to only mean Mboli's Post-Classic N-E. I renamed the entire Negro-Egyptian to ci.Nkanda. Thus, Cyena-Ntu is a sub-family of ci.Nkanda. The details are in Imhotep (2020).
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