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Top Egyptologist and Minister of Antiquities Criticizes Netflix’s “Cleopatra”
quote: Dr. Zahi Hawass, one of the most famous Egyptologists and the former Egyptian Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs, has criticized Netflix for its controversial decision to cast Cleopatra with a black actress in an upcoming docuseries. The new Netflix series, dubbed “Queen Cleopatra”, which is produced and narrated by the American actress Jada Pinkett Smith, has sparked fierce debate over the misrepresentation of history and representation in TV and media. Hawass, who is Egypt’s most recognizable archaeologist, decried the decision by Netflix to portray Cleopatra as being of black descent, pointing out that the historical figure “was Greek”. Zahi Hawass criticizes portrayal of Cleopatra by Netflix “I announced these days to the media that Cleopatra was not black,” Zahi posted on his Facebook account in response to the controversy surrounding the new Netflix series. “The film that is coming on Netflix is not accurate and gives wrong information on ancient Egypt,” the famous Egyptologist continued. “Cleopatra was Greek and she was similar to the queens and princesses of Macedonia,” wrote Zahi, alluding to the fact that Cleopatra was a member of the Ptolemaic Dynasty who ruled over Egypt between 305 BC and 30 BC. The Ptolemaic Dynasty was founded by Ptolemy I Soter, a Macedonian Greek who served Alexander the Great as a general, bodyguard, and historian. When Alexander died and his empire was split between his squabbling generals, Ptolemy established his own kingdom in Egypt. Misrepresentation of Egyptian history The Netflix series appears to have angered many Egyptians, as well as Greeks and people with a general interest in history who expressed their disappointment online. A petition started by two Egyptians calling on Netflix to cancel their upcoming Cleopatra documentary garnered well over 60,000 signatures until it was removed by Change.org for “violating community guidelines”. In his Facebook Zahi further discussed the historicity of the Netflix documentary vis-a-vis ancient Egypt even beyond the period of Ptolemaic rule. “If we look at the scenes on the Egyptian temples, we can see that the pharaohs are depicted and in front of them were Nubian, Libyan, and Asian captives; the king is always completely different from all of them,” he wrote. “During the 25th dynasty, the Kingdom of Kush ruled Egypt and those were Kushite pharaohs but they had nothing to do with ancient Egyptian civilization,” he continued. The Kingdom of Kush was an ancient Nubian civilization of the Nile Valley. Its territory spanned what is today northern Sudan and southern Egypt. At various points throughout their history, the Kushites were both ruled by and ruled over the ancient Egyptians. Like the Macedonian Greek Ptolemaic Dynasty, they were a foreign people who once ruled over the ancient Egyptians after the foundation of the 25th Dynasty by the Kushite King Piye in the 8th century BC. Zahi concluded the Facebook post by saying “I am not against black people at all but here I am just listing the evidence that Cleopatra was not black.”
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Top Egyptologist and Minister of Antiquities Criticizes Netflix’s “Cleopatra” “The film that is coming on Netflix is not accurate and gives wrong information on ancient Egypt,” the famous Egyptologist continued. “Cleopatra was Greek and she was similar to the queens and princesses of Macedonia,” wrote Zahi, alluding to the fact that Cleopatra was a member of the Ptolemaic Dynasty who ruled over Egypt between 305 BC and 30 BC. The Ptolemaic Dynasty was founded by Ptolemy I Soter, a Macedonian Greek who served Alexander the Great as a general, bodyguard, and historian. When Alexander died and his empire was split between his squabbling generals, Ptolemy established his own kingdom in Egypt. Misrepresentation of Egyptian history The Netflix series appears to have angered many Egyptians, as well as Greeks and people with a general interest in history who expressed their disappointment online. GREEKS AND EGYPTIANS DEMAND AN END TO THE FALSIFICATION OF QUEEN CLEOPATRA'S HISTORY: ALMOST 60K SIGN THE PETITION TO STOP NETFLIX'S NEW DOCUMENTARY https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/greeks-and-egyptians-demand-an-end-to-the-falsification-of-queen-cleopatras-history-almost-60k-sign-the-petition-to-stop-netflixs-new-document ary
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One can wonder what the Egyptans will say about an upcoming Cleopatra film with the Israeli actress Gal Gadot in the leading role? Sounds also like a touchy subject.
quote:Gal Gadot fans slam haters saying: ‘Cleopatra was Greek not black or Arab’
The casting decision has some social media users riled up, with journalist Sameera Khan calling Gal Gadot a 'bland' Israeli and others stating that she is ‘not Black enough’ to play Cleopatra’.
Supporters have scrambled to defend her amidst accusations by online trolls that casting Gadot as Cleopatra was another example of ‘hollywood whitewashing’ - the term used to refer to the growing debate about the occurrence of white actors portraying non-white roles.
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Was Cleopatra Black? Gal Gadot's Cleopatra Film Controversy | Dr. Rebecca Futo Kennedy Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages
quote: In this episode Dr. Rebecca Futo Kennedy takes us into another intense history debate and that is the question of "Was Cleopatra Black?"
In light of the upcoming movie and controversy surrounding Gal Gadot playing Cleopatra I felt like this was an excellent time to use this episode.
What was her ethnicity? Why is it controversial? Was she Macedonian? Are Macedonians even Greek? Was there an African in the Ptolemy family tree?
Is this argument merely people attempting to project their modern narratives and politics on the past?
Why does it even matter? Can we even answer the question?
In this talk Dr. Kennedy explains that until we stop attempting to remove black Africans from Egyptian history and until we stop using the modern and inaccurate term Sub-Saharan in our dialogue involving ancient Africa and Egypt it doesn't matter.
Again, in many ways this talk merely shows that this debate revolves more around modern politics and narratives rather than Cleopatra herself, the Ptolemies and how the ancient Egyptians saw them or themselves.
quote: Why is it that so many so-called conscious and Afrocentric people pay so much attention to Kemet, yet ignore the rest of Africa, especially the regions where their ancestors came from, which is Central and Western Africa?
Why is it they can talk to you for days on end about the blackness of Kemet, yet not be able to name you even one civilization in West Africa? Or if they can, they have the need to invent history and claim these people are Egyptian immigrants when there is absolutely no hard evidence to support such a notion?
Why is it so outrageous to accept the fact that Egypt was only one of many civilizations and cultures on the African Continent and that peoples in the other regions had their own unique cultures and achievements?
Why can't we as people of African descent have just as much reverence for the ancestors of our own bloodline as we do for people who are most likely not related to us at all?
Yes, they were fellow Africans, but they were not of our direct bloodline. Pay homage to your own house first before pat homage to your neighbor's. Take care of the children of your own house before you try to take care of some other child in the neighborhood.
by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
quote: Sure. I've said the same thing for years, and disputed those who see Kemet as some sort of "central headquarters" of civilization or advanced culture in Africa. To the contrary, the opposite seems more appropriate- Africa itself is the "headquarters" and Egypt is a "branch office" thereof. To rework the title of Van Sertima's book- "Egypt- Child of Africa," Kemet is is a very important child to be sure, but ultimately just one of the many offspring Africa gave birth to.
I agree with many parts of the critique in the video but would point out that African people do not seem to be any more obsessed with Egypt compared to white people, who are the biggest appropriators and users of Kemet's cultural iconography, art and much else. Many white people are the biggest hypocrites in this area- they themselves being massively obsessed with Kemet while presumptuously lecturing black folk bout how they should "focus" on Nubia and elsewhere, as if only white people are "qualified" to study and comment on things in the field. White people even appropriated and consumed the dead flesh of Egyptian mummies at one time for their medicinal systems.
And black popular culture in the US on a whole is not that heavy into Kemet. Most cultural linkups focus on West Africa or East Africa (the Swahili cultural orbit) not Kemet. Kwanza is an example, as are black baby names. When the last time you run into some black kid named "Tutankhamen" compared to the much larger number of "sub-Saharan" or Islamic origin names? It was not Kareem Amenhotep, but Kareem Abdul Jabbar, or Malcolm El Shabazz.
In the 1960s the inspiration was mostly West African- with dashikis and NATURAL "Afro" hair styles not wigs as in popular Kemet. So-called "black militants" were not running much to Egypt compared to West Africa- as Stokely Carmichael, aka Kwame Ture can attest.
Do SOME black people go overboard with Kemet? YEs. Is there an almost cultish obsession with SOME "Afrocentric" types? Certainly. But viewed in larger context, let's not overplay things. White obsession is miles ahead of what black folk are doing. And Kemet does not really resonate in black popular culture, compared to West/East African/Islamic influences. Among a small minority? Sure but overall there does not appear to be an "Kemetic" movement. Hell its sometimes hard to get some among that small minority to update their knowledge with modern data. Some are still preaching Chancellor Williams 1970, or Diop 1964- good foundational background to be sure with the data available at the time, but the field has since moved on. And that plays into the hands of assorted dishonest enemies who go around acting as of every black student in the country is a "disciple" of George James circa 1959. My critique of the bogus strawman book "White Athena" on Amazon makes this very point. The same critique can be applied to the Arabist hypocrites desperately trying to "distance" themselves from "anything too African" when hard data shows that the foundation of Kemet is precisely that which is "African". The above being said there is a need to of course learn more about ALL parts of the continent.
by Nodnarb
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Along with the obvious fact that ancient Egypt receives more mainstream media exposure than other African cultures, I believe it has a special attraction to "Afrocentric" types because it's perceived as a major influence on the development of so-called Western civilization (through the proxies of Greece and then Rome of course). Not to mention the irony of an advanced civilization thriving in Africa when most of northern Europe was still at a "tribal" level of organization. It would be the ultimate rebuttal to the white supremacist narrative that Africans are naturally less capable of civilization than Europeans. So that's probably why Egypt is more contentious territory than, say, Mali or Zimbabwe.
by Oshun
quote: Egypt given lots of attention cause the discoveries and science and math were the foundation for a lot of progress in those field for ancient Europe. Much of their ideas are still directly relevant today in technology, science and mathematics. While we know now by a few resources that West African civilizations contemporary to Egypt existed, it's not really known like it is with Egypt what they were like, let alone what they could've been accomplishin still relevant today (see Tichitt)
by Nodnarb
quote: I agree with this as well. The African quality of Kush, Mali, or Zimbabwe doesn't get ignored or denied as much as Egypt's. Instead it's pretty much taken for granted. So yeah, even people who don't necessarily gravitate towards Egypt more than other African civilizations might still find themselves arguing about it more since it's more contested territory.
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Piers Morgan interviews Bassem Yousuff and Ernest Owen about Netflix Cleopatra
quote: Piers Morgan Uncensored is joined by Egyptian comedian Bassem Youssef and author Ernest Owens to debate Netflix hiring non-Egyptian actress Adele James to play Cleopatra in a new Netflix show about the Pharaoh Queen.
Bassem Yousuff is also opposed to Gal Gadot playing Cleopatra. He says
quote:... a couple of years ago they announced that Gal Gadot, an ex Israeli soldier who condones her government actions atrocities against Palestinian children she was going to play Cleopatra, for me this is even a bigger insult and Gal Gadot is not black .. it's not about black and white it's about this idea of Hollywood always stealing by the culture of my own people
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Zendaya steals important role from Gal Gadot by Daniela Aguilera April 4, 2023
After her roles in “Spiderman” and “Euphoria,” Zendaya, a former Disney star, has managed to establish herself as one of the most significant actresses in the business. For this reason, Zendaya was considered to play Queen Cleopatra in a movie directed by Denis Villeneuve, who also oversaw “Dune.”
In an adaptation about the life of one of the most significant women in Egypt, the young Zendaya will reunite with Denis Villeneuve, with whom she previously collaborated on the film “Dune,” it was revealed this week.
believed that Gal Gadot had been chosen as the ideal candidate to portray the Egyptian woman, circumstances have since altered as it became difficult for the Israeli actress to handle two extremely demanding projects, such as Cleopatra and Wonder Woman.
Gal Gadot was left out by Denis Villeneuve long before he realized that Patty Jenkins’ firing and the cancellation of the projects she had been considered for would leave the DC cinematic universe actor without a job.
Film critic Jeff Sneider stated on the Hot Mic show that the project, which is based on the life of the last queen of Egypt, is still in the long pre-production stage. As a result, there may be additional changes to the cast of celebrities or the plot in the future.
t should be mentioned that, as of right now, neither the project nor the participation of the actresses Gal Gadot or Zendaya, nor the latter, have received any direct statements from director Denis Villeneuve.
Zendaya, also credited as Zendaya Coleman, is an American actress, singer, dancer, and model. She has starred in the films The Greatest Showman, Smallfoot, Malcolm & Marie, Dune, and, as MJ, the Spider-Man franchise; and on television’s Shake It Up, Frenemies, Zapped, K.C. Undercover, and Euphoria.
Her father, Kazembe Ajamu (born Samuel David Coleman), is African-American, from a family from Arkansas. Her mother, Claire Marie (Stoermer), who is white, has German, Irish, English, and Scottish ancestry.
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----------- Wonder what he would think about the cartoon Cleopatra in Space, where Cleopatra travels to the future and experiences a lot of adventures in a science fiction world? Cleopatra in Space is both a graphic novel series and an animated TV-series.
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I'm aware of the debate surrounding Cleo's heritage and how she may or may not have looked.
Nonetheless, I'd like to show a contemporary Roman painting of Cleopatra dressed in Greco-Roman garb rather than white and Egyptian attire.
Besides, Macedonian Greeks appear to be less "Mediterranean" in appearance than Athenians, for example. They seem to be on the fairer side in their own ancient artworks.
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To be honest, I feel a bit sorry for the actress, who is experiencing a lot of heat, smoke, and disdain. They also made her darker than she actually is in the photo. With that stated, many people were upset that Netflix insisted on their presentation of Cleopatra as a documentary rather than a film with a re-imagined Cleo, in which they could take artistic liberties with her ethnicity or appearance. This actress would, in my opinion, be a better option for the role of Hatshepsut than Cleopatra.
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Now Egyptian authorities have issued a statement about the Netflix Cleopatra documentary.
I quote it here translated to English. In the link below the statement you can see the document in Arabic.
quote:Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities on Thursday
April 27, 2023
- The Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities confirms that Queen Cleopatra had light skin and Hellenistic (Greek) features.
- The effects and statues of Queen Cleopatra are the best evidence of her true features and her Macedonian origins
With reference to the series of documentaries that the “Netflix” platform announced its launch during the coming period, foremost of which is a screening of the movie “Queen Cleopatra” on the 10th of next May, in which its heroine, who plays the role of Queen “Cleopatra VII”, appears with African features and dark skin, he confirmed. Dr.. Mostafa Waziri, Secretary-General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that the appearance of the heroine in this body is a falsification of Egyptian history and a blatant historical fallacy, especially since the film is classified as a documentary film and not a dramatic work, which requires those in charge of its production to investigate accuracy and rely on historical and scientific facts to ensure that history and civilizations are not falsified. peoples.
He added that it was necessary to refer to specialists in archeology and anthropology when making this kind of documentaries and historical films, which will remain a witness to the civilizations and history of nations, pointing out that there are many antiquities of Queen Cleopatra, including statues and depictions on coins that confirm the shape and true features of her. All of which show the Hellenistic (Greek) features of Queen Cleopatra in terms of fair skin, drawn nose and thin lips.
Dr. confirmed. Mostafa Waziri said that the state of rejection witnessed by the film before its screening comes out of a sense of defending the history of Queen "Cleopatra VII", which is an important and authentic part of the ancient history of Egypt, and far from any ethnic racism, stressing full respect for African civilizations and our brothers in the African continent that unites us all. .
As Dr. added. Nasser Makkawi, Head of the Egyptian Antiquities Department at the Faculty of Archeology, Cairo University, said that the appearance of Queen Cleopatra in this film in this body contradicts the simplest historical facts and the writings of historians such as Plutarch and Diocassius, who recorded the events of Roman history in Egypt during the reign of Queen Cleopatra, who confirmed that she was light-skinned and that she had Pure Macedonian ancestry. He pointed out that Queen "Cleopatra VII" descends from an ancient Macedonian family that ruled Egypt for nearly 300 years, founded by King "Ptolemy I", one of the Macedonian leaders in the army of "Alexander the Great", to whom the state of Egypt devolved after the death of "Alexander" and the foundations of the Ptolemaic dynasty. Ptolemy I married Queen Berenice I of Macedonian origin as well, and they gave birth to King Ptolemy II, after whom his sons and grandchildren continued to marry their female sisters according to the customs of this era, until Queen Cleopatra VII and her brother Ptolemy 14 maintained The purity of their Macedonian race during all this time period.
On her part, Dr. said. Samia Al-Mirghani, former Director General of the Center for Research and Conservation of Antiquities at the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that biological anthropology studies and DNA studies that were conducted on ancient Egyptian mummies and human bones confirmed that the Egyptians did not bear the features of sub-Saharan Africans, whether in the shape of the skull, the width of the cheeks and nose, the widening and advancement of the upper jaw, or the shape Al-Zahiri for hair, proportions of body parts, height, distribution and density of body hair. And what we see of a great diversity among the features of the Egyptians is due to the age of the ages of this land and the stability of its inhabitants and their melting of every stranger within their crucible.
She added that all the inscriptions and statues left for us by the ancient Egyptians on the temples and tombs depicted the Egyptians with features as close as possible to the contemporary Egyptians in terms of eye, hair and skin color, the degree of smoothness and density of hair for men and women, and even the color of the skin and the presence of a proportion of colored eyes, which are depicted in some statues of the Old Kingdom. Even when some mummification techniques changed in the 21st Dynasty and they began to paint the mummy's skin to make it look as it was in her first life, they painted the man's skin in brick color and painted the woman's skin in light yellow, which confirms that what was drawn and confirmed on the walls is the truth that the ancient Egyptian recorded about himself. .
As Dr. said. Catharina Martinez, the head of the Dominican mission and a worker at the Taposiris Magna temple in western Alexandria, said that despite the existence of conflicting opinions about her race, it is certain that she was born in Egypt in the year 69 BC of Macedonian origin, pointing out that with reference to the statues and coins left to us by the queen She confirms beyond any doubt her Hellenistic features, which is evident in the bust made of marble preserved in the Berlin Museum from the first century BC, in which she appears wearing a royal wreath, almond eyes, a drawn nose and thin lips, in addition to another bust preserved in the Vatican that shows her With soft features, and a marble head in which she appears wearing a headdress, as well as a number of coins that show her in the same Hellenistic form. ---- Ministry of Tourism
Queen Cleopatra’ Director Speaks Out: ‘What Bothers You So Much About a Black Cleopatra?’(EXCLUSIVE) "It is more likely that Cleopatra looked like our actor than Elizabeth Taylor ever did."
By Tina Gharavi
Tina Gharavi
Last summer, I was living in Venice Beach and had decided, due to a friend’s persistence, to visit a fortune teller. Me, ever the sceptic but game for a laugh, agreed to go along. What the fortune teller said made me roll my eyes: “I am not saying you are Cleopatra but somehow you share her story and are connected.”
Less than a month later, I got a call from a production company making Jada Pinkett Smith’s “African Queens” and was subsequently hired to direct four episodes of a drama-documentary on the life of the controversial leader. The joke was on me.
I remember as a kid seeing Elizabeth Taylor play Cleopatra. I was captivated, but even then, I felt the image was not right. Was her skin really that white? With this new production, could I find the answers about Cleopatra’s heritage and release her from the stranglehold that Hollywood had placed on her image?
Born in Iran, I am a Persian, and Cleopatra’s heritage has been attributed at one time or another to the Greeks, the Macedonians and the Persians. The known facts are that her Macedonian Greek family — the Ptolemaic lineage — intermarried with West Asian’s Seleucid dynasty and had been in Egypt for 300 years. Cleopatra was eight generations away from these Ptolemaic ancestors, making the chance of her being white somewhat unlikely. After 300 years, surely, we can safely say Cleopatra was Egyptian. She was no more Greek or Macedonian than Rita Wilson or Jennifer Aniston. Both are one generation from Greece.
Doing the research, I realized what a political act it would be to see Cleopatra portrayed by a Black actress. For me, the idea that people had gotten it so incredibly wrong before — historically, from Theda Bara to Monica Bellucci, and recently, with Angelina Jolie and Gal Gadot in the running to play her — meant we had to get it even more right. The hunt was on to find the right performer to bring Cleopatra into the 21st century.
Why shouldn’t Cleopatra be a melanated sister? And why do some people need Cleopatra to be white? Her proximity to whiteness seems to give her value, and for some Egyptians it seems to really matter.
After much hang-wringing and countless auditions, we found in Adele James an actor who could convey not only Cleopatra’s beauty, but also her strength. What the historians can confirm is that it is more likely that Cleopatra looked like Adele than Elizabeth Taylor ever did.
As production got nearer, I realized the magnitude and political nature of this job. It was important to get things right, but also to find a way of telling the story with humanism and nuance: The last thing we needed was another Cleopatra divorced from her womanhood and her power only sexualized. The HBO series “Rome” portrayed one of the most intelligent, sophisticated and powerful women in the world as a sleazy, dissipated drug addict, yet Egypt didn’t seem to mind. Where was the outrage then? But portraying her as Black? Well.
Perhaps, it’s not just that I’ve directed a series that portrays Cleopatra as Black, but that I have asked Egyptians to see themselves as Africans, and they are furious at me for that. I am okay with this.
While shooting, I became the target of a huge online hate campaign. Egyptians accused me of “blackwashing” and “stealing” their history. Some threatened to ruin my career — which I wanted to tell them was laughable. I was ruining it very well for myself, thank you very much! No amount of reasoning or reminders that Arab invasions had not yet happened in Cleopatra’s age seemed to stem the tide of ridiculous comments. Amir in his bedroom in Cairo wrote to me to earnestly appeal that “Cleopatra was Greek!” Oh, Lawd! Why would that be a good thing to you, Amir? You’re Egyptian.
So, was Cleopatra Black? We don’t know for sure, but we can be certain she wasn’t white like Elizabeth Taylor. We need to have a conversation with ourselves about our colorism, and the internalized white supremacy that Hollywood has indoctrinated us with.
Most of all, we need to realize that Cleopatra’s story is less about her than it is about who we are.
It’s almost as if we don’t realize that misogynoir still has an effect on us today. We need to liberate our imaginations, and boldly create a world in which we can explore our historical figures without fearing the complexity that comes with their depiction. I am proud to stand with “Queen Cleopatra” — a re-imagined Cleopatra — and with the team that made this. We re-imagined a world over 2,000 years ago where once there was an exceptional woman who ruled. I would like to draw a direct line from her to the women in Egypt who rose up in the Arab uprisings, and to my Persian sisters who are today rebelling against a brutal regime. Never before has it been more important to have women leaders: white or Black.
“Queen Cleopatra” debuts on Netflix on May 10. Gharavi is a BAFTA and Sundance-nominated filmmaker. Her debut, “I Am Nasrine” was nominated for a BAFTA in 2013. Her next feature documentary, “Tribalism is Killing Us,” which resulted from visiting Angola State Prison, will release later this year. Gharavi teaches filmmaking around the world, and was awarded an MIT Fellowship. She was elected into BAFTA in 2017.Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Not that I agree with trying to 'cancel' this show, but its interesting Bassem Youssef talks about disaproval of non-Black actors playing AE's too, links it to the political climate, and isnt automatically trying to claim 'Arab' either as some seem to say. It was either here or elsewhere that I heard the claim that the Sadat film was banned for the same reason, and despite the lack of evidence for it, now all this is unfolding its more beleivable, although still wouldnt rule out the primacy of politics in the decision given the nature of that films subject matter. Egyptians understandably feel touchy on the national culture, which theyve historically been blocked from, but energy would be better spent trying to improve the country.
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Piers Morgan interviews Bassem Yousuff and Ernest Owen about Netflix Cleopatra
quote: Piers Morgan Uncensored is joined by Egyptian comedian Bassem Youssef and author Ernest Owens to debate Netflix hiring non-Egyptian actress Adele James to play Cleopatra in a new Netflix show about the Pharaoh Queen.
Bassem Yousuff is also opposed to Gal Gadot playing Cleopatra. He says
quote:... a couple of years ago they announced that Gal Gadot, an ex Israeli soldier who condones her government actions atrocities against Palestinian children she was going to play Cleopatra, for me this is even a bigger insult and Gal Gadot is not black .. it's not about black and white it's about this idea of Hollywood always stealing by the culture of my own people
This guy is insane. His culture? Im sure he doesn't even know a damn thing about black people let alone African culture. Also, he doesnt even look like any of the Pharoahs depicted during the dynastic period.
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@Archeopteryx. I know that those are all real Bassem Yousuff quotes but who made that into a poster? Can you go back in and put the link. I assume it's Egyptian History Defenders on Facebook or the other group listed on the lower right but I wonder if Bassem Yousuff endorses this as a poster or likes these groups
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quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: This guy is insane. His culture? Im sure he doesn't even know a damn thing about black people let alone African culture. Also, he doesnt even look like any of the Pharoahs depicted during the dynastic period.
Bassem Yousuff could be 90% Arab and 10% native Egyptian he could claim ancient Egyptian ancestors. But his Egyptian ancestry could be higher, it could be 60%, who knows or it could be none at all, zero
Somebody described as black who lives in Sudan or Chad or DRC for instance, who might have an ancestor who was an ancient Egyptian or they might have 0% Egyptian ancestry.
We can't tell by looking
It is peculiar for anybody to claim Ancient Egyptian culture since Egyptian culture has been dead for 2,000 years and many of these tombs have only been excavated in recent times. I doubt Bassem Yousuff practices Ancient Egyptian culture but I don't know much about him
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: Piers Morgan interviews Bassem Yousuff and Ernest Owen about Netflix Cleopatra
quote: Piers Morgan Uncensored is joined by Egyptian comedian Bassem Youssef and author Ernest Owens to debate Netflix hiring non-Egyptian actress Adele James to play Cleopatra in a new Netflix show about the Pharaoh Queen.
Bassem Yousuff is also opposed to Gal Gadot playing Cleopatra. He says
quote:... a couple of years ago they announced that Gal Gadot, an ex Israeli soldier who condones her government actions atrocities against Palestinian children she was going to play Cleopatra, for me this is even a bigger insult and Gal Gadot is not black .. it's not about black and white it's about this idea of Hollywood always stealing by the culture of my own people
This guy is insane. His culture? Im sure he doesn't even know a damn thing about black people let alone African culture. Also, he doesnt even look like any of the Pharoahs depicted during the dynastic period.
Don't you agree with him that African Americans have their own wonderful ancestral culture in West Africa? Bassem, although critical, wasn't disrespectful toward black people, unlike many who oppose with Afrocentrism. He also made it clear that Egyptians are equally upset when white Europeans play Ancient Egyptians. And Gal Gadot also received a lot of backlash from the Egyptians for playing Cleopatra, and she is a Mediterranean-looking woman.
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quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: He also made it clear that Egyptians are equally upset when white Europeans play Ancient Egyptians.
I am not sure if that is the case, would need to see evidence of such upset that is dated close to a release date (rather than years later saying "oh, yeah, we didn't like that either, we're fair")
quote:Originally posted by mightywolf: And Gal Gadot also received a lot of backlash from the Egyptians for playing Cleopatra, and she is a Mediterranean-looking woman.
yes but the reason >
Bassem Yousuff: "... a couple of years ago they announced that Gal Gadot, an ex Israeli soldier who condones her government actions atrocities against Palestinian children she was going to play Cleopatra, for me this is even a bigger insult and Gal Gadot is not black .. it's not about black and white it's about this idea of Hollywood always stealing by the culture of my own people"
^^ not complaining about her "whiteness", her Israeliness rather
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Actually, my citation of Hawass's claims are not about Tut or the Amarna family but go back to the late 90s in regards to DNA tests on Old Kingdom Giza mummies which have yet to be released. Again he claims it's because the results are misconstrued to be "Jewish" but many have noted such to be a load of pigcrap based on the simple reason that there is no DNA specific to "Jews" per say other than those associated with Southwest Asia ( paternal hg J) or Africa (paternal hg E). They've released the results on the Amarna family (though not entirely) and the same with the Ramessides (but again not entirely). Yet they haven't released the Giza results at all. No STRs or SNPs not one.
2014:
The editor of Archaeology magazine, Mark Rose, reported in 2002 that the work was cancelled “due to concern that the results might strengthen an association between the family of Tutankhamun and the Biblical Moses.” An Egyptologist with close links to the antiquities service, speaking to me on condition of anonymity, agreed: “There was a fear it would be said that the pharaohs were Jewish.”
Specifically, if the results showed that Tutankhamun shared DNA with Jewish groups, there was concern that this could be used by Israel to argue that Egypt was part of the Promised Land.
Comedian Bassem Yousuff is a buddy of John Stewart. John Stewart (born Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz) is probably having a hard time figuring out how he is going to react to this, if asked about Bassem's remarks on Cleo and more if Bassem's remarks on Gal Godot are brought up, sticky situation
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If Cleopatra was a Macedonian occupier why are all these Egyptians so concerned?
On the flip side why did Jada Pinket-Smith pick Cleopatra when she could have picked an Egyptian queen who was undisputedly Egyptian?
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Also the choice of Gal Gadot for a role as Cleopatra was criticised, both by Egyptians (because she is an Israeli), and westerners (because she is white).
quote: Gal Gadot defends Cleopatra casting after 'whitewashing' controversy
Israeli film star Gal Gadot has defended her plan to play Cleopatra following accusations of whitewashing.
Critics say an Arab or African actress should play the ancient Egyptian queen.
"First of all if you want to be true to the facts then Cleopatra was Macedonian," the Wonder Woman actress told BBC Arabic's Sam Asi.
"We were looking for a Macedonian actress that could fit Cleopatra. She wasn't there, and I was very passionate about Cleopatra."
Controversy erupted in October after Gadot announced that she would star in and co-produce the film. The Guardian's Hanna Flint called it "a backwards step for Hollywood representation", while director Lexi Alexander said a black actress should be cast, citing a reconstruction of Cleopatra's face.
Gadot said: "I have friends from across the globe, whether they're Muslims or Christian or Catholic or atheist or Buddhist, or Jewish of course... People are people, and with me I want to celebrate the legacy of Cleopatra and honour this amazing historic icon that I admire so much."
She said other people were welcome to make their own films. "You know, anybody can make this movie and anybody can go ahead and do it. I'm very passionate that I'm going to do my own too."
Cleopatra, born in the ancient Egyptian capital Alexandria, was the last ruler in the dynasty founded by Alexander the Great's Macedonian general Ptolemy, whose descendants ruled Egypt for 300 years.
They have long been thought to have been white with a high degree of inbreeding. But there is mystery over the identity of her mother, leading to speculation that Cleopatra may have been of mixed heritage.
In 2008, Egyptologist Sally Ann Ashton from the Fitzwilliam Museum Cambridge created a reconstruction of her face from images on ancient artefacts. It showed her with mixed ethnicity.
"She probably wasn't just completely European," Dr Ashton told The Daily Mail at the time. "You've got to remember that her family had actually lived in Egypt for 300 years by the time she came to power."
The following year, a BBC documentary about the discovery of the possible skeleton of Cleopatra's sister Arsinoe suggested she may have had mixed ancestry.
But earlier this year, Kathryn Bard, Professor of Archaeology and Classical Studies at Boston University, told Newsweek: "Cleopatra VII was white - of Macedonian descent, as were all of the Ptolemy rulers, who lived in Egypt."
The celebrated queen has been played on screen by a string of white actresses, most famously Elizabeth Taylor in the big-budget 1963 film.
quote:Zack Galante 15 hours ago (edited) I love your videos … but im surprised u left out Strabo a Greek historian and the only person to see cleopatra & her family and he quoted "Three classes inhabited the city (Alexandria in Egypt): first the Aegyptian or native stock of people, who were quick-tempered and not inclined to civil life; and secondly the mercenary class, who were severe and numerous and intractable..; and, third, the tribe of the Alexandrians, who also were not distinctly inclined to civil life, and for the same reasons, but still they were better than those others, for even though they were a mixed people, still they were Greeks by origin and mindful of the customs common to the Greeks."
Starbo also stated that cleopatra was the only illegitimate child of Ptolemy XII Auletes.
quote:SignalHillTV 14 hours ago You are close Zach lol Strabo is reporting in the third person. He is saying the Egyptians are stating why she is ineligible to be queen and why Bernice Iv could rule. So he states he had three daughters with only Bernice Iv being legitimate and the rest of the kids, Cleopatra Vii, and Arisinoe Vi, are illegitimate, and the sons were too young to rule. They expelled Ptolemy Xii Auletes. So most scholars believe their mother/mothers were Egyptian because they could write in hieroglyphics. Then remember Alexander the Great married Roxanna. Not sure what happens to Cleopatra V she is not mentioned again after Bernice Vi's birth which was recorded. "Strabo Geography Book 1" Then Zack you can also see how they are represented in Hieroglyphics they both clearly have skin tone) Perfume Payparus. Getty Images
quote: SignalHillTV 14 hours ago Now Zach before I go cut and paste and it will take you to the scholarly article. "From the reconstruction, Thur and her colleagues concluded that Arsinoe had an African mother (the Ptolemies were an ethnically Greek dynasty). That conclusion led to splashy headlines suggesting that Cleopatra, too, was African" everything in parentheses, now her, and Cleopatra could have had a different mother. But when you get a chance in your free time notice how they were excited when they found her remains in Esphues, and how they try to challenge and dismiss them when they said her mother was African. So think about that when you see how Cleopatra is depicted in Hieroglyphics standing next to Arisinoe because they are the same complexion.
quote:Zack Galante 14 hours ago @SignalHillTV Duane W. Roller in his book Cleopatra: A Biography, published by Oxford University Press in 2010. Roller argues that Cleopatra’s mother may have been a 2nd wife of Ptolemaios XII & that she may have been a member of the Ptolemaic royal family named Berenike & her husband Psenptais, who was an Egyptian high priest. Concluding cleopatra having a black Egyptian mother.
quote: 13 hours ago @Zack Galante Yeah Zach if I had the present a case in Crimal court I would say her mother is unknown. However in Civil court more than likely I would agree with Duane Roller that her mother was Egyptian from a Memphis priestess family. Then I would argue that she and Arisnoe VI have the same African mother. It's a reason why Bernice VI could not read or write the Egyptian language but they both could. Now Elizabeth Taylor they actually copied her look from hieroglyphics braids etc So whenever you get a chance to check out the getting images the person she is always holding hands with is Arisnoe IV. They found Arsinoe IV remains but they have not found Cleopatra Vii's (yet) maybe they never will./QUOTE]
[QUOTE]SignalHillTV 13 hours ago @Zack Galante Yeah Zack he mentions Cleopatra she is one of the three daughters. He is talking about Bernice IV it appears you are saying Bernike. The other two daughters are Arisnoe IV and Cleopatra. If I picked someone to play Cleopatra I would go with Zendaya. So if you watch the channel in Egypt the Royal Wife Cleopatra's V offspring would be eligible to rule. Children by a lesser wife could not unless they were male, so that is why is stated they were too young. So Zach people may try to stump you and state what the Greek word for illegitimate is or state what Strabo meant. But he is just reporting, the Egyptians expelled him. Once Bernice VI is executed now they are eligible to be co-regent with one of the sons
-------------------- It's not my burden to disabuse the ignorant of their wrong opinions Posts: 2699 | From: New York | Registered: Jun 2015
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In his article Zahi Hawass says this about some depictions of Cleopatra
quote: As one talking head in the film says, “I remember my grandmother saying to me, ‘I don’t care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black’.”
But, as all the evidence shows, she wasn’t.
One need only look at all the known statues of Cleopatra VII, such as the head of the queen that I and fellow archaeologist Kathleen Martinez found inside the Temple of Taposiris Magna, west of Alexandria, during our search for Cleopatra’s tomb.
None of these statues, including the one we found, which was made of alabaster, gives any indication that Cleopatra was black.
During our excavation inside the temple, we also found a large number of coins bearing the face and name of Cleopatra. Again, not one of the depictions supports the decision of the producers of the series to portray their queen as black.
quote:Originally posted by Karem: @Lioness - the Liz Taylor version was officially banned in Egypt at the time.
Taylor had converted to Judaism a few years earlier, before her marriage to singer Eddie Fisher, and had become outspokenly supportive of Israel. At the time, Egypt saw Israel as its enemy and banned any kind of relations with Jews and Israelis. So when the film first came out, Egypt banned the film. Taylor’s conversion to Judaism and her outspoken support of Israel made her persona non grata in Egypt, which later recanted once it realized the great publicity it was receiving.
In 1959, Taylor made her Zionist support public in a big way, buying $100,000 of Israel bonds at a fundraiser dinner in Los Angeles with her new husband Fisher (who bought $10,000 himself). She had already finished her conversion with a big ceremony at Hollywood’s Temple Israel and spoken to the press about her love of Judaism. She was not converting for her husband, she made clear — she claimed she had admired the religion “for a long time.”
Taylor’s big Israel bonds purchase made waves in the Arab world, and not long after, JTA reported that the US State Department had received some startling news: The United Arab Republic — what was then a unified state consisting of Egypt and Syria — “officially banned all motion pictures” featuring Taylor.
Filming for “Cleopatra” took place in 1962, mostly in Rome, but the crew planned to film some shots in Egypt, for authenticity’s sake. But Taylor was banned from even entering the country, so the crew didn’t travel to Egypt. Still, JTA noted at the time: “Officially, Miss Taylor’s movies have been on the Egyptian blacklist for a long time. However, some of her films are shown occasionally in Egypt, and receive enthusiastic support from Egyptian audiences.”
“Cleopatra” ended up doing just fine — it was released in 1963, became the most financially successful movie of the year and won four Academy Awards in 1964. Furthermore, Egyptian officials enjoyed it so much that they removed Taylor from the travel blacklist. As JTA reported: “The officials decided the film was good publicity for Egypt which is mentioned 122 times in the movie.”
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: In his article Zahi Hawass says this about some depictions of Cleopatra
quote: As one talking head in the film says, “I remember my grandmother saying to me, ‘I don’t care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black’.”
But, as all the evidence shows, she wasn’t.
One need only look at all the known statues of Cleopatra VII, such as the head of the queen that I and fellow archaeologist Kathleen Martinez found inside the Temple of Taposiris Magna, west of Alexandria, during our search for Cleopatra’s tomb.
None of these statues, including the one we found, which was made of alabaster, gives any indication that Cleopatra was black.
During our excavation inside the temple, we also found a large number of coins bearing the face and name of Cleopatra. Again, not one of the depictions supports the decision of the producers of the series to portray their queen as black.
posted
In his article he mentions archaeologist Kathleen Martinez
quote:... such as the head of the queen that I and fellow archaeologist Kathleen Martinez found inside the Temple of Taposiris Magna...
It seems that she had to mail him many times before they could start to work together.
quote: Martinez first came to Egypt in search of Cleopatra’s tomb some 20 years ago, convinced after more than a decade of research that Taposiris Magna, located on outskirts of Alexandria and dedicated to Osiris, the god of the dead, was a leading candidate for the queen’s burial spot.
After hundreds of ignored emails, Martinez managed to secure a meeting in Cairo with archaeologist Zahi Hawass, then the country’s minister of Egypt’s antiquities affairs.
She convinced him to give her two months to conduct excavations on the site. Work has been ongoing since 2004—but the new find is the most compelling evidence to date that Martinez is on the right track.
After that the excavations have yielded very interesting results, among others a 1,2 Km long tunnel. Martinez still hopes they can find Cleopatras tomb. If there still is a body there it could give valuable clues to her looks and her family.
An alabaster statue of Cleopatra is shown to the press at the temple of Tasposiris Magna on the outskirts of Alexandria, on April 19, 2009. Archaeologists are now more convinced than ever that the tomb of Marc Anthony and Cleopatra lies nearby (From Artnet News)
They also found 22 coins with her image.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2684 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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quote:No Cleopatra was not black — here are the facts
The “docudrama” Queen Cleopatra, which purports to be a historically accurate account of the life and reign of the ruler of the Ptolemaic kingdom of Egypt in the first century BC, will be released on Netflix on May 10.
The series, produced by Jada Pinkett Smith, the wife of American actor Will Smith, has already attracted much controversy for the decision to cast the black British actress Adele James in the title role. Cleopatra was not black. As well documented history attests, she was the descendant of a Macedonian Greek general who was a contemporary of Alexander the Great. Her first language was Greek and in contemporary busts and portraits she is depicted clearly as being white.
The evidence for Cleopatra’s true heritage is overwhelming – and not, as Pinkett Smith has said in defense of the show, “highly debated.”
The actress playing Cleopatra has offered this advice to the show’s many critics: "If you don't like the casting, don't watch the show." It is advice that I, and I suspect countless Egyptians, intend to take.
There are many words that could be used to describe the falsehood at the heart of this series, and headlines in newspapers around the world – from the US to Egypt and Greece – have carried several of them, including “historical revisionism,” “cultural appropriation,” and “black-washing.”
The protests are not motivated by racism. As the Egyptian lawyer Mahmoud Al-Semary, who has launched a legal bid to have access to Netflix blocked in Egypt, has pointed out, this is outrage provoked by a form of cultural identity theft.
Al-Semary has accused Netflix of an attempt to "promote the Afrocentric thinking ... which includes slogans and writings aimed at distorting and erasing the Egyptian identity.” He makes a sound case.
I met Pinkett Smith in 2006. At the time I was the head of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, and she and I were named by Time magazine as being among “the 100 men and women whose power, talent or moral example is transforming our world.”
I went to the ceremony at the Lincoln Center in New York and, at dinner, sat at a table with both Will and Jada Pinkett Smith. I invited Smith to come to Egypt and, 11 years later, in company with most of the members of his family, but not his wife, he did.
That, as it now turns out, was a pity. As one talking head in the film says, “I remember my grandmother saying to me, ‘I don’t care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black’.”
But, as all the evidence shows, she wasn’t.
One need only look at all the known statues of Cleopatra VII, such as the head of the queen that I and fellow archaeologist Kathleen Martinez found inside the Temple of Taposiris Magna, west of Alexandria, during our search for Cleopatra’s tomb.
None of these statues, including the one we found, which was made of alabaster, gives any indication that Cleopatra was black.
During our excavation inside the temple, we also found a large number of coins bearing the face and name of Cleopatra. Again, not one of the depictions supports the decision of the producers of the series to portray their queen as black.
There is a similar lack of evidence for Cleopatra having been black to be found in a depiction on the facade of the temple at Dendera, which shows her with the goddess Hathor and her child Caesarion, the son of Caesar.
Why is this series appearing now? It is, perhaps, timed to take commercial advantage of the current contention among some in the black American community that their origins lie in ancient Egypt.
I can’t say if this is true or not. If there were evidence to support this theory, I would accept it completely, but there is no such evidence.
The truth as we know it can be found in the many scenes depicted in temples throughout Egyptian history. Here we see the pharaohs smiting the enemies of Egypt and, in front of them, all of the people of the surrounding regions, including Nubia, Libya and Mesopotamia.
Luckily for historians and archaeologists, the ancient Egyptian artists were sticklers for detail – examine the faces, and the racial characteristics of each of the figures are clearly shown.
This can be seen in one of the great scenes that was found during our excavation and conservation inside the tomb of Ramses II in the Valley of the Kings. It shows the sun god Ra on his boat and, standing in front of him, people of four clearly identifiable races: Egyptians, Africans, Libyans and Asiatics.
In February it was announced that black American comedian Kevin Hart had cancelled an upcoming show in Egypt, because of controversy over Afrocentric remarks he had made previously, claiming that the kings of Egypt had been black Africans.
I was unhappy about the cancellation because dialogue between all of us is very important. If we could have met, I’d have explained to Hart that the people from the Nubian Kingdom of Kush did indeed come to Egypt as conquerors who ruled for about a century, from 744 to 656 BC, but they were not, as has been repeatedly and wrongly claimed, the originators of pharaonic civilization.
A few years ago, I went to Philadelphia to give a lecture at the University of Pennsylvania on the origins of the ancient Egyptians and, such is the interest in this subject, the lecture was sold out. I said there were three opinions on the subject.
Some scholars say that the first ancient Egyptians came from Asia and Africa. As evidence they cite the shape and color of the people in the Nile Delta today, who are white, while the color of the people in Upper Egypt is darker. They also suggest that the grammar in hieroglyphic script is similar to that in Arabic and Hebrew.
The second opinion was published by Cheikh Anta Diop, from Senegal, who claimed that the ancient Egyptians were of black origin, and pointed to statues of Tutankhamun and Ramses, which had been carved from dark stone. He also said that the grammar in hieroglyphic script was similar to some African languages, but a UNESCO conference in Paris attended by many Egyptologists dismissed the theory as lacking real evidence.
The third opinion is based on the excavation of Naqada in Upper Egypt by the British archaeologist Sir Flinders Petrie, who is regarded as the father of Egyptology and a pioneer in systematic archaeological investigation. After excavating a predynastic cemetery, Petrie concluded that the remains buried there were of the people who had made the Egyptian civilization.
If we look at the archaeological evidence from Asia and Africa, it is clear that this pharaonic civilization occurred only in Egypt. The ancient people of Africa, although blessed similarly with the bounty of the Nile and even better weather, left nothing behind them.
Cleopatra was not black, and I would welcome the opportunity to teach Pinkett Smith about a woman whose achievements and story were sufficiently dramatic not to require politically motivated embellishment in the retelling of them.
When Cleopatra took the throne in 51 BC after the death of her father, Egypt was severely damaged, significantly in debt and experiencing high inflation. The Nile had recently flooded more destructively than usual, political power lay in the hands of Rome and the feelings of anger and rebellion among the Alexandrians toward the pharaoh had reached fever pitch.
Cleopatra rose to the occasion, entering the political arena with a strong character, a sharp mind and, it has to be said, feminine charms that she did not hesitate to exploit, as witnessed by her relationships with and manipulation of the Romans Julius Caesar and Mark Antony.
Cleopatra had several private tutors who prepared her to rule Egypt, but she also pursued academic interests of her own, such as science and philosophy, and could be said to have been a pioneer in the field of women’s rights. Unlike her forebears, Cleopatra learned the native language of Egypt, as well as Greek and other tongues.
Cleopatra, then, was many things, and well deserving of having her story told to modern audiences, but one thing she most definitely was not was black.
It is a shame that Netflix has categorized this new series as a docudrama, rather than a pure drama, because no one who knows anything about ancient Egypt can possibly take it seriously.
Dr. Zahi Hawass is Honorary Chairman, Antiquities Coalition Advisory Council, Egyptologist and Former Minister of Antiquities of Egypt, a position he served twice. He is also the Director of Excavations at Giza, Saqqara, Bahariya Oasis, and the Valley of the Kings. He has been involved in several important archaeological projects. He led the search for the tomb of Cleopatra and Mark Antony on the premises of a Ptolemaic temple near Alexandria. (Source: Antiquities Coalition)
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: This guy is insane. His culture? Im sure he doesn't even know a damn thing about black people let alone African culture. Also, he doesnt even look like any of the Pharoahs depicted during the dynastic period.
Bassem Yousuff could be 90% Arab and 10% native Egyptian he could claim ancient Egyptian ancestors. But his Egyptian ancestry could be higher, it could be 60%, who knows or it could be none at all, zero
Somebody described as black who lives in Sudan or Chad or DRC for instance, who might have an ancestor who was an ancient Egyptian or they might have 0% Egyptian ancestry.
We can't tell by looking
It is peculiar for anybody to claim Ancient Egyptian culture since Egyptian culture has been dead for 2,000 years and many of these tombs have only been excavated in recent times. I doubt Bassem Yousuff practices Ancient Egyptian culture but I don't know much about him
Ancient Egyptian culture is African.
Has Bassem Yousuff taken a genetic test to determine his african ancestry? Also, Assuming Bassem Yousuff is 10% dynastic egyptian, why is that enough for him to claim its his culture considering he doesn't know any damn thing about african people and african culture at all? Many black people across the globe are 10% non black this or that, is he cool with black people claiming white, arab, south west/asian culture as their heritable culture?
Adele James is black of mixed ancestry. She is most likely 30% non black yet to these people she cant even play an african egyptian because she look too black. Bassem Yousuffs claims on west africa is pointless. He doesn't know anything about africa or black people. For the record you have many meditteranean groups like the Greeks or Italians for example who are part African and they dont claim any african civilization.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: Ancient Egyptian culture is African.
Has Bassem Yousuff taken a genetic test to determine his african ancestry? Also, Assuming Bassem Yousuff is 10% dynastic egyptian, why is that enough for him to claim its his culture considering he doesn't know any damn thing about african people and african culture at all?
How do you know Bassem Yousuff knows nothing about ancient Egyptian culture?
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: Ancient Egyptian culture is African.
Many black people across the globe are 10% non black this or that, is he cool with black people claiming white, arab, south west/asian culture as their heritable culture?
Suppose a black person who was born in Egypt said they were a native Egyptian and said "my culture goes back to the ancient Egyptians" would you consider this claim made by any living person acceptable?
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack:
Adele James is black of mixed ancestry. She is most likely 30% non black yet to these people she cant even play an african egyptian because she look too black.
She's not playing an African Egyptian. She's playing a Macedonian Greek
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quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: Ancient Egyptian culture is African.
Has Bassem Yousuff taken a genetic test to determine his african ancestry? Also, Assuming Bassem Yousuff is 10% dynastic egyptian, why is that enough for him to claim its his culture considering he doesn't know any damn thing about african people and african culture at all?
How do you know Bassem Yousuff knows nothing about ancient Egyptian culture?
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack: Ancient Egyptian culture is African.
Many black people across the globe are 10% non black this or that, is he cool with black people claiming white, arab, south west/asian culture as their heritable culture?
Suppose a black person who was born in Egypt said they were a native Egyptian and said "my culture goes back to the ancient Egyptians" would you consider this claim made by any living person acceptable?
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Mack:
Adele James is black of mixed ancestry. She is most likely 30% non black yet to these people she cant even play an african egyptian because she look too black.
[qb]She's not playing an African Egyptian. She's playing a Macedonian Greek
I didnt say he didnt know anything about Ancient Egyptian culture.
quote:Suppose a black person who was born in Egypt said they were a native Egyptian and said "my culture goes back to the ancient Egyptians" would you consider this claim made by any living person acceptable?
call me prejudiced but certainly more acceptable than the man who looks like he came right out of the caucaus region.
quote:She's not playing an African Egyptian. She's playing a Macedonian Greek
I forget this is a documentary, not a show. you are right she was macedonian greek. She may have been mixed ive not researched much into cleopatra considering im more concerned about other african female rulers like hatshepsut, tiye, sobnekferu etc
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A couple of reconstructions of Cleopatra, the first one is made by Royalty now, the second one by Alessandro Tomasi and the two at the bottom by Sally Ann Ashton
Another rendering of Cleopatra from Royalty now, here depicted in modern clothing
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This was posted in one of youtube video comment sections.
Sako Gekchyan quote-
quote: @Spitfire The Dragon TV Love And Positive Light But the Sahara did not prevent so-called Black people from traveling to North Africa.
First of all, the Sahara was not always a desert. As recent as 6000 years ago, large parts of it were lush, savanna, and even some tropical forests as well.
It only gradually became a desert. Over time it has gone through several cycles of Fertilization and desertification.
Second, what do you mean by black? Do you consider the people of Sudan black? If so, then clearly, there is no barrier to some groups of Black people.
They are literally right up the river. Do you think there was some magical forcefield keeping Black people in prehistoric times from migrating north into the lower Nile valley? This is the same question I ask hoteps who insist that Egypt was blackity black.
I asked them if they think there was some magical forcfield along the Sinai border, preventing prehistoric Middle Eastern populations from migrating into the Nile delta, and beyond? In both cases, the logic is pretty silly.
quote: Beginning in the predynastic period, some differences between the populations of Upper and Lower Egypt were ascertained through their skeletal remains, suggesting a gradual clinal pattern north to south.
When Lower and Upper Egypt were unified c. 3200 BC, the distinction began to blur, resulting in a more homogeneous population in Egypt, though the distinction remains true to some degree to this day. Some biological anthropologists such as Shomarka Keita believe the range of variability to be primarily indigenous and not necessarily the result of significant intermingling of widely divergent peoples.
Keita describes the northern and southern patterns of the early predynastic period as "northern-Egyptian-Maghreb" and "tropical African variant" (overlapping with Nubia/Kush) respectively. He shows that a progressive change in Upper Egypt toward the northern Egyptian pattern takes place through the predynastic period. The southern pattern continues to predominate in Abydos, Upper Egypt by the First Dynasty, but "lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed also, thus making for great diversity."
A group of noted physical anthropologists conducted craniofacial studies of Egyptian skeletal remains and concluded similarly that "the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well."
Genetic analysis of modern Egyptians reveals that they have paternal lineages common to indigenous North-East African populations primarily and to Near Eastern peoples to a lesser extent—these lineages would have spread during the Neolithic and were maintained by the predynastic period. University of Chicago Egyptologist Frank Yurco suggested a historical, regional and ethnolinguistic continuity, asserting that "the mummies and skeletons of ancient Egyptians indicate they were Africans of the Afro-Asiatic ethnic grouping".He writes:
"Certainly there was some foreign admixture [in Egypt], but basically a homogeneous African population had lived in the Nile Valley from ancient to modern times... [the] Badarian people, who developed the earliest Predynastic Egyptian culture, already exhibited the mix of North African and Sub-Saharan physical traits that have typified Egyptians ever since (Hassan 1985; Yurco 1989; Trigger 1978; Keita 1990; Brace et al., this volume)... The peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of East Africa, Ethiopia and Somalia are now generally regarded as a [Nile Valley] continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types) but with powerful common cultural traits, including cattle pastoralist traditions (Trigger 1978; Bard, Snowden, this volume). Language research suggests that this Saharan-[Nile Valley] population became speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages... Semitic was evidently spoken by Saharans who crossed the Red Sea into Arabia and became ancestors of the Semitic speakers there, possibly around 7000 BC... In summary we may say that Egypt was a distinct Afro-Asiatic African culture rooted in the Nile Valley and on the Sahara." A 2006 bioarchaeological study on the dental morphology of ancient Egyptians by Prof. Joel Irish shows dental traits characteristic of indigenous North Africans and to a lesser extent Southwest Asian and southern European populations. Among the samples included in the study is skeletal material from the Hawara tombs of Fayum, which clustered very closely with the Badarian series of the predynastic period. All the samples, particularly those of the Dynastic period, were significantly divergent from a neolithic West Saharan sample from Lower Nubia. Biological continuity was also found intact from the dynastic to the post-pharaonic periods. According to Irish:
[The Egyptian] samples [996 mummies] exhibit morphologically simple, mass-reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)... an inspection of MMD values reveals no evidence of increasing phenetic distance between samples from the first and second halves of this almost 3,000-year-long period. For example, phenetic distances between First-Second Dynasty Abydos and samples from Fourth Dynasty Saqqara (MMD ¼ 0.050), 11–12th Dynasty Thebes (0.000), 12th Dynasty Lisht (0.072), 19th Dynasty Qurneh (0.053), and 26th–30th Dynasty Giza (0.027) do not exhibit a directional increase through time... Thus, despite increasing foreign influence after the Second Intermediate Period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd, 2000a), but the people themselves, as represented by the dental samples, appear biologically constant as well... Gebel Ramlah [Neolithic Nubian/Western Desert sample] is, in fact, significantly different from Badari based on the 22-trait MMD (Table 4). For that matter, the Neolithic Western Desert sample is significantly different from all others [but] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples.
A study published in 2017 described the extraction and analysis of DNA from 151 mummified ancient Egyptian individuals, whose remains were recovered from Abusir. The study was able to measure the mitochondrial DNA of 90 individuals, and it showed that Ancient Egyptians had the greatest affinity for modern Middle Eastern (Arabs, Levantine and Anatolian) and North African populations and had significantly more affinity with south-eastern Europeans than with sub-Saharan Africans. Genome-wide data could only be successfully extracted from three of these individuals. Of these three, the Y-chromosome haplogroups of two individuals could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa. The absolute estimates of sub-Saharan African ancestry in these three individuals ranged from 6 to 15%, which is slightly lower than the level of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Egyptians from Abusir, who range from 14 to 21%. The study's authors cautioned that the Mummies may be unrepresentative of the whole Ancient Egyptian population, since they were recovered from the northern part of Egypt and that the Southern part might have more Sub-Saharan component being closer to Nubia. and that they only dated from the late New Kingdom to the Roman Period. As a result mummies from the earlier classical periods of Egyptian history such as the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom further to the south were omitted.
quote: Cleopatra belonged to the Macedonian Greek dynasty of the Ptolemies, their European origins tracing back to northern Greece. Through her father, Ptolemy XII Auletes, she was a descendant of two prominent companions of Alexander the Great of Macedon: the general Ptolemy I Soter, founder of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, and Seleucus I Nicator, the Macedonian Greek founder of the Seleucid Empire of West Asia. While Cleopatra's paternal line can be traced, the identity of her mother is unknown.She was presumably the daughter of Cleopatra VI Tryphaena (also known as Cleopatra V Tryphaena), the sister-wife of Ptolemy XII who had previously given birth to their daughter Berenice IV.
Cleopatra I Syra was the only member of the Ptolemaic dynasty known for certain to have introduced some non-Greek ancestry. Her mother Laodice III was a daughter born to King Mithridates II of Pontus, a Persian of the Mithridatic dynasty, and his wife Laodice who had a mixed Greek-Persian heritage.Cleopatra I Syra's father Antiochus III the Great was a descendant of Queen Apama, the Sogdian Iranian wife of Seleucus I Nicator.It is generally believed that the Ptolemies did not intermarry with native Egyptians.Michael Grant asserts that there is only one known Egyptian mistress of a Ptolemy and no known Egyptian wife of a Ptolemy, further arguing that Cleopatra probably did not have any Egyptian ancestry and "would have described herself as Greek."Stacy Schiff writes that Cleopatra was a Macedonian Greek with some Persian ancestry, arguing that it was rare for the Ptolemies to have an Egyptian mistress. Duane W. Roller speculates that Cleopatra could have been the daughter of a theoretical half-Macedonian-Greek, half-Egyptian woman from Memphis in northern Egypt belonging to a family of priests dedicated to Ptah (a hypothesis not generally accepted in scholarship), but contends that whatever Cleopatra's ancestry, she valued her Greek Ptolemaic heritage the most.Ernle Bradford writes that Cleopatra challenged Rome not as an Egyptian woman "but as a civilized Greek." _____________ Cleopatra race controversy The race of Cleopatra VII, the last active Hellenistic ruler of the Macedonian-led Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt, has caused some debate in scholarly and non-scholarly circles. For example, the article "Was Cleopatra Black?" was published in Ebony magazine in 2002. Mary Lefkowitz, Professor Emerita of Classical Studies at Wellesley College, traces the origins of the Black Cleopatra claim to the 1946 book by J.A. Rogers called "World's Great Men of Color." Lefkowitz refutes Rogers' hypothesis, on various scholarly grounds. The black Cleopatra claim was further revived in an essay by afrocentrist John Henrik Clarke, chair of African history at Hunter College, entitled "African Warrior Queens."Lefkowitz notes the essay includes the claim that Cleopatra described herself as black in the New Testament's Book of Acts – when in fact Cleopatra had died more than sixty years before the death of Jesus Christ.
Scholars identify Cleopatra as having been essentially of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry, based on the fact that her Macedonian Greek family (the Ptolemaic dynasty) had intermarried with the Seleucid dynasty. Michael Grant states that Cleopatra probably had not a drop of Egyptian blood and that she "would have described herself as Greek.Duane W. Roller notes that "there is absolutely no evidence" that Cleopatra was racially black African as claimed by what he dismisses as generally not "credible scholarly sources."
Cleopatra's official coinage (which she would have approved) and the three portrait busts of her considered authentic by scholars (which match her coins) portray Cleopatra as a Greek woman in style. Polo writes that Cleopatra's coinage present her image with certainty and asserts that the sculpted portrait of the "Berlin Cleopatra" head is confirmed as having a similar profile.Roman frescoes in Pompeii and Herculaneum similar to the Vatican and Berlin marble sculptures have been identified as possible portraits of the queen based on comparable facial features and royal iconography.
In 2009, a BBC documentary speculated that Cleopatra might have been part North African. This was based largely on the examination of a headless skeleton of a female child in a 20 BCE tomb in Ephesus (modern Turkey), together with the old notes and photographs of the now-missing skull. The remains were hypothesized to be those of Arsinoe IV, half-sister to Cleopatra, and conjecture based on discredited processes suggested that the remains belonged to a girl whose "race" may have been "North African". This claim is rejected by scholars, based on the remains being impossible to identify as Arsinoe, the race of the remains being impossible to identify at all, the fact that the remains belonged to a child much younger than Arsinoe when she died, and the fact that Arsinoe and Cleopatra shared the same father Ptolemy XII Auletes but had different mothers.
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By the way. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
quote: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
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