posted
I don't know if someone has some information regarding the chronology of this three haplogroups...I would like to dedicate this thread to the history of the the expansion of these haplogroups...
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posted
In human genetics, Haplogroup E (M96) is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup.
This haplogroup is found in Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. Haplogroup E is found in Africa, Asia and Europe and it is divided into three clades: E1 and E2 are found exclusively in Africa, while E3 is observed in Africa, Europe and western Asia. E3 is further divided into E3a and E3b, but only E3b is observed in significant frequency in Europe and western Asia in addition to Africa. E3b is estimated to be 25 600 years old. [1] Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to E(xE3b), while most non-Africans belong to the E3b clade of the E haplogroup.”
Subgroups
Subbranches include E1, E2, E3a (M2) and E3b (M35).
E1
E1 (M33) headed for West Africa and today it is mainly present in the region of Mali.
E2
E2 (M75) is present both in West and East Africa.
E3
E3, by far the most frequent subbranch of E, diverged into two main subbranches E3a (M2) and E3b (M35) approximately 24-27 000 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004). The bearers of E3a populated the coastal region of West Africa, where they largely mixed with indigenous Pygmy populations and gave birth to modern West Africans speaking languages of the Niger-Congo family. As a result of the historical migrations of the agricultural Bantu-speaking cultures that started ca. 3000 BC, E3a is the most frequent Y-haplogroup in Sub-Saharan Africa today. It is also the most common Y-haplogroup among African American men.
Within eastern Africa, the haplogroup appears to be restricted to Ethiopia but E-M34 chromosomes have been found in a large majority of the populations from the Near East. E-M34 chromosomes from Ethiopia show lower variances than those from the Near East and appear closely related in the E-M34 network. Thus, it is assumed that E-M34 chromosomes were introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East.[2]
In populations of Europe, particularly among those that reside near the Mediterranean, Haplogroup E3b is believed to represent ancient genetic influence from Near East, mediated by West Asian populations entering Europe during the Neolithic revolution (the spread of agriculture from Asia Minor).[3] The subbranch E3b1 is present at high frequencies among the Greeks, Albanians, and South Italians (up to 25%), but its percentage gradually falls below 10% in the Carpathian basin and Iberia, and is negligible in other parts of Europe. Some E3b is instead explained by more recent genetic influence from North Africa.
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posted
1) , it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001).
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posted
So E3, E1, and E2 occurred at the same period...it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara, and that is reinforced by the fact that E3a is more common in Western Africa while E3b is more common in East and South East Africa...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor
These precursors found in the Sahara are specifically designated by what?
quote:Habari:
which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara, and that is reinforced by the fact that E3a is more common in Western Africa while E3b is more common in East and South East Africa...
E3a is common in sub-Saharan West, western and central Sahel, Central, Southern and southeast Africa. E3b is common in sub-Saharan East Africa, Southern and southeast Africa, coastal North Africa, and the western through to eastern Sahel. Now of course, the distribution and frequency pattern of specific sub-haplogroups of these clades themselves may have a relatively different outlook from that of the rather generalized macro-haplogroup standpoint.
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posted
I would be glad to answer your questions after you answer mine in the cranial diversity thread just before that thread was open...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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What does - whatever it is that you're talking about - have to do with what's being discussed here? At any rate, whether or not you reply to the questions at hand, is up to you; it is your knowledge base that is on the line, not mine.
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Re the E3a and E3b tree I have always wondered why the tree seems to suggest that while there were at least 3 mutations with E3b there are none with regard to E3a. Mutations are predicted to occur at regular time intervals for any random haplotype, so why do you think this has not happened with regard to E3a.
Also given that humans have been in Africa at 3 timers as long as they have been in other continent shouldn't one expect that the hapmap for Africa would be much more dense--i.e. more lineages--than elsewhere?
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posted
Mystery, let's courteous answer the question I asked first here and then I will answer: linkPosts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anyway to lamin, I believe the question about E3a having derivative forms was answered several times before. There are subgroups of E3a such as E3a1, E3a2, etc.
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posted
To Mystery: Since you answered my question in the other thread here is what I have to say: E3 E1 and E2 are among the most recent haplogroups,although E3 derived haplogroups are more common today, there are much older haplogroups like A and B, what would be interesting is to establish a time frame beyond E3a and E3b...and how E3 E1 and E2 split...E3a and E3b seems to be originally a dispersal through the Sahara corridor but what about the split between E3 E1 and E2...any time frame and any geographical map?
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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To Mystery: Since you answered my question in the other thread here is what I have to say: E3 E1 and E2 are among the most recent haplogroups,although E3 derived haplogroups are more common today, there are much older haplogroups like A and B, what would be interesting is to establish a time frame beyond E3a and E3b...and how E3 E1 and E2 split...E3a and E3b seems to be originally a dispersal through the Sahara corridor but what about the split between E3 E1 and E2...any time frame and any geographical map?
Please re-read my post; you have NOT answered the specific questions at hand. Answering those questions with another question, doesn't constitute the answer.
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posted
My post was an invitation to contribute to this thread...and it was a form a questioning from the beginning, right now you're questioning me about a question...do you have a time frame for E1,E3 an E2?
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^My friend, where is the "question" in this:
So E3, E1, and E2 occurred at the same period...it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara, and that is reinforced by the fact that E3a is more common in Western Africa while E3b is more common in East and South East Africa... - Habari
I see a few unsubstantiated statements therein, but questions....that's another story.
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posted
So E3, E1, and E2 occurred at the same period? Sorry for the punctuation...so do you have an answer?
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Not from what I know. Semino et al. for instance, reached different dates for these three clades in their work: Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area.
You can also look up dates on websites of DNA testing organizations, such as that of familytreedna.com, et al.
As for E3 and its derivatives, I recently posted some chronological notes here: Link
quote:Habari:
Sorry for the punctuation...?
What about this one:
it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara… - Habari
Was this too a product of failed punctuation?
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quote:it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara
The precursor of E3b and E3a is E3.
This is denoted by the PN2 transition.
Underived E3 has been found in Ethiopia and Senegal.
E1 and E2 is also found in NorthEast Africa, whereas E2 is very common in Mali.
So yes, I agree with the premise that the sahara or sahel was a likely ancient corridor for these lineages, bearing in mind that at different times in history sahara desert scarsely exists, and that much of this area would be open savana.
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While in that agreement, please inform if and when this will be addressed:
What about this one:
it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara… - Habari
quote:Anyway to lamin, I believe the question about E3a having derivative forms was answered several times before. There are subgroups of E3a such as E3a1, E3a2, etc.
So why aren't E3a1,etc. not shown on the haptree? Note that on the world haplogroup maps there seems to be much less mutational differentiation than one sees for relatively recently populated places such as Europe.
Also what are the references?
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posted
lamin bear in mind that genetic studies are led by Westerners, that's one of the reason you will see much emphasis on E3b since it is more present in Europe and west Asia compare to E3a...on that note you also see more studies about Ashkenazi in science fields because of the interest of many searchers who happen to have Jewish ancestry in the West...In Europe and America many academics have Jewish ancestry, I think it's mainly due to the fact that they tend to live in urban settings and have more access to schools...it's also possible that it's based on their upbringing where they emphasize schooling more than in European and American culture...I have in mind the case of South Koreans and Chinese...
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it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara… - Habari
I questioned you on the above [highlighted] because E3 is obviously the precursor of E3a and E3b clades, as already noted, but as far as can I recall, it appears to be relatively even more rarer than its own derivative branches, or either E1 or E2 clades in its overall frequency and distribution pattern in the Sahara. E1 and E2 seem to be more widely distributed in sub-Saharan groups of West Africa, including the Cameroonian region, than those in East Africa and elsewhere on the continent. Based on samplings undertaken, which have been brought to my attention, E3 appears in highest frequencies in Ethiopian populations, and relatively lower frequencies in other sub-Saharan groups like Senegalese, the Burkina Faso Mossi and Rimaibe, Cameroonian Fulani, and so forth.
E.g.,
Both phylogeography and microsatellite variance suggest that E-P2 and its derivative, E-M35, probably originated in eastern Africa. This inference is further supported by the presence of additional Hg E lineal diversification and by the highest frequency of E-P2* and E-M35* in the same region. The distribution of E-P2* appears limited to eastern African peoples. The E-M35* lineage shows its highest frequency (19.2%) in the Ethiopian Oromo but with a wider distribution range than E-P2*. - Semino et al., Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J.
Don't know if it has to do with samplings undertaken thus far, or else just not brought to my attention, but E3 generally appears to be rare in the Sahara itself, in comparison to its presence in 'sub-Saharan' designated territories.
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So why aren't E3a1,etc. not shown on the haptree? Note that on the world haplogroup maps there seems to be much less mutational differentiation than one sees for relatively recently populated places such as Europe.
Also what are the references?
When you say "haptree", what do you mean by that?...because as far as I know, E3a derivatives do appear on NRY haplogroup tree.
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quote:Don't know if it has to do with samplings undertaken thus far, or else just not brought to my attention, but E3 generally appears to be rare in the Sahara itself, in comparison to its presence in 'sub-Saharan' designated territories.
E3* carrier probably originated in Ethiopia where the frequency is the highest and derived throughout the Sahara corridor, the data might suggest that since it is found in the Sahel region as well...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Don't know if it has to do with samplings undertaken thus far, or else just not brought to my attention, but E3 generally appears to be rare in the Sahara itself, in comparison to its presence in 'sub-Saharan' designated territories.
E3* carrier probably originated in Ethiopia where the frequency is the highest and derived throughout the Sahara corridor
Are you suggesting that E3a and E3b derived in the Sahara? If so, elaborate.
quote:Originally posted by Habari:
, the data might suggest that since it is found in the Sahel region as well...
Which regions do you understand by "in the Sahel region"?
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Re the E3a and E3b tree I have always wondered why the tree seems to suggest that while there were at least 3 mutations with E3b there are none with regard to E3a.
Thanks, I was merely going on Djehuti's tree diagram which had the branches for E3b but none for E3a.
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posted
^ MS, since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
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^ MS, since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
I likely will, if you can first tell me why I'm obligated to do that.
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posted
^*Yawn*. Not sure how showing the idea of E3 clade being "mainly found in the Sahara" is a questionable one...at least when taken into consideration vis-a-vis its distribution in sub-Saharan Africa [I have already posted notes above on that], morphed into me saying anything about E3 "crossing" the Sahara or its lack thereof, as Rasol's question seems to suggest, but here is something I posted on E3a and E3b carriers elsewhere:
Here is what I think occurred, based on the information available to me:
Between 23 and 18ky ago - Ogolian period begins, which coincides with and is likely connected to the LGM weather situation.
23,000 BP ~ 21,050 BC: "After a favourable climatic period, characterised by relatively dense and diversified Palaeolithic occupations, the arid Ogolian begins locally around 23000 years BP and is represented at Ounjougou by a significant depositional and archaeological hiatus." [see: Aziz Ballouche]
- Much of North Africa and the Sahara are characterized by adverse weather conditions, with much of the region turning arid. The Sahara at this time, extends south beyond its current boundaries to a certain point, possibly a little beyond the Niger bend.
Arid conditions extend all the way to the "horn" coast of the African Horn region, possibly encouraging populations to reside more inwards - away from that horn-shaped coastal region; rather, likely towards the region straddling southern Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda or even further - region straddling Uganda, Kenya, and Tanzania.
- PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a* [as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period. At this time, it was likely the M78 derivative that came about ~ between 19 and 15 ky ago. It was also likely during this period, that some E3b-M35 variants spilled over to the "southwest Asia", which would be identified as E-M34. The E-M78* likely arose somewhere in the bidirectional-migration route between Northeast and sub-Saharan East Africa; this location was likely in the region straddling upper Egypt and Sudan of the eastern Sahara, amongst earlier E-M35 migrants from sub-Saharan East Africa. These M78 bearers were increasingly pressured to move further south due to progressive aridity, possibly as far as Uganda-Kenya and/or Tanzanian general region.
- The E3a bearing group would proceed westward, perhaps meeting groups of earlier lineages at the Shum Laka region of Cameroon, whereby quartz micro-lithic culture had already been in place by around 30 ky ago, hence preceding the rise of E3a common recent ancestor. But this group wouldn’t stay put here, at least not every section of it; they’d proceed to the savanna, grassland or vegetation holdouts in West Africa beyond the then boundaries of the Sahara. This probably occurred some time between 15ky and 13ky ago. During this period, as the Saharan aridity began to gradually slacken, some E-M78 bearing proto-Afrasan speaking nomads likely made their way into the Levant via the Sinai corridor.
Others taking refuge in the Cameroonian savanna-tropical forest general region probably followed suit, that is - after the aforementioned initial batch of migrants [bearing E3a descendants]; or else, the same group of people [from the initial migrants] shifted locations along the west African vegetation belts, once it became apparent that the far western reaches didn’t have much to offer, but the water system [as part of the Niger River] - however relatively shallow or what not - offered something additional. Finally, when the conditions in the Sahara were turning around for the better, starting between ~ 12ky and 11ky ago, these migrants would proceed northward, leaving the sort of trails that find expression at Ounjougou - Mali.
10th millennium BC ~ 12ky ago: At Ounjougou - "It is not until the Holocene and the return of humid climatic conditions, beginning in the 10th millennium BC, that it is possible to again observe evidence of human occupation."[see: Aziz Ballouche]
"Consequently, it has to be seen in the context of heavy rainfalls and a resettlement of the vegetation cover, during the 10th millennium BC, that a new population arrives on the Plateau of Bandiagara."[see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
And...
From 30,600 to 10,000 BC: "A cultural flow, from the southeast of Subsaharan Africa and to the Sahara, could explain the diffusion of the microlithic industries all the way through West Africa. We observe them initially in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30.600-29.000 BC), then at the Ivory Coast in Bingerville (14.100-13.400 BC), in Nigeria in Iwo Eleru (11.460-11.050 BC), and finally in Ounjougou (phase 1, 10th millennium BC)."[see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
Its very probable that this E3a bearing group(s) came into contact with the then wandering earlier-inhabitants of west Africa, who would have been pressured to move southward beyond the then Saharan desert boundaries, due to progressing aridity of the Ogolian period. These groups could have brought their central-Saharan pottery [e.g. found in Niger] traditions with them [developed perhaps sometime during the transitioning period to the wetter phase of the Sahara], just as the E3a bearing group(s) brought the microlithic traditions that they possibly picked up in the vicinity of the Shum Laka region [see above excerpt carbon dating estimations of finds] …and/or else…the new migrants produced their own versions of pottery in their new found location [as it is not noted whether these pottery had affinities with examples found in the aforementioned central Saharan region], at a time when it was trendy to carry stuff in pottery ware in the Saharan-Sahelian zone, with the filling up river systems due to the Monsoon rains.
The 10,000 and 9,000 BC (Phase 1 of the Holocene in Ounjougou): "The first sedimentary sequence of the Holocene can be observed at the Ravin de la Mouche. It's a channel dug into yellow Pleistocene silt and filled with coarse grained sand and pebbles. As a chronological reference for the upper levels of this early Holocene site, we hold ten radiocarbon dates between 9400 and 8400 BC cal. The associated lithic industry evidences predominantly a unidirectional mode of debitage. But also other technologies, such as bipolar on anvil or multidirectional, have been applied by the Early Holocene population. The raw material mainly used was quartz. The typological range consists of small retouched flakes, geometric microliths and perçoirs, but also of continuously retouched bifacial arrowheads and backed points."[see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
"By" 11,000 years BP ~ by 9050 BC:
"The age of the sediment in which they were found suggests that the six ceramic fragments discovered between 2002 and 2005 are at least 11,400 years old. Most ancient ceramics from the Middle East and the central and eastern Sahara regions are 10,000 and between 9-10,000 years old, respectively." [see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
By the 'beginning' of 8,000 BC: "Outstandingly, there has been evidence of the presence of pottery and seed grinding implements since at least the beginning of the 8th millennium BC. It is therefore the oldest site. The eighth millennium (Phase 2 of the Holocene in Ounjougou) known of this socio-economic type in sub-Saharan Africa...
The pottery and the seed grinding implements of phase 2 of Ounjougou are the oldest artefacts of this type known at present in sub-Saharan Africa. To current knowledge, the pottery of Ounjougou could either have been invented in the actual Sudano-Sahelian zone or been imported from the Central Sahara, where there has been evidence since the ninth millennium BC. Still, the oldest pottery known in the Sahara, from the site of Tagalagal in Niger, is already quite diversified at the moment of its appearance, possibly meaning that the technique has been introduced.
The lithic industry of the phases 1 and 2 on the other hand shows similarities to both more southern and Saharan industries. Quartz microliths, obtained through bipolar debitage on anvil, are a characteristic of the West African techno-complex according to Kevin MacDonald. Bifacially retouched arrowheads, in contrast, are specific for Saharan production." [see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
"The eighth millennium (Phase 2 of the Holocene in Ounjougou): The subsequent Holocene sequence is well documented by two principal sites, the Ravin du Hibou and Damatoumou. The archaeological levels can be quite clearly chronologically placed by means of a date obtained through OSL measurements (9420±410 Ka) and seven radiocarbon dates (between 8000 and 7000 BC cal). The lithic industry, exclusively quartz, is characterised by unidirectional, bidirectional and peripheral debitage, as well as by bipolar on anvil. There are essentially microlithic tools: perçoirs, backed points, notched pieces, denticulates, scrapers, retouched flakes and geometric microliths. Some small bifacially retouched arrowheads were also found on those sites. At the Ravin du Hibou, seven sherds have been found during excavation. They are heavily fragmented and thus preventing the reconstruction of the form of the vessels. Quartz has always been used as a temper. In just a single case, grog has been used in addition. Two shards show identifiable decorations. Two different techniques have been used: A rolled impression, possibly made with a peigne fileté souple or with a cordelette, and a simple comb impression. There were also seed grinding implements discovered at the Ravin du Hibou, a fragment of a seed grinding stone and a cylindrical upper grinding stone." [see: Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa]
If we look at the samplings undertaken thus far, the west African populations on Atlantic-bordering west coasts - like the Senegalese samples, these groups undoubtedly have amongst the highest frequencies of E3a lineages, but there is something to be discerned: These groups largely carry M2, P1, and M180 lineages devoid of the M191 mutation, perhaps indicating the earlier E3a bearers, while many of the Bantu speaking groups of central, east and southern Africa carry those 191 derivatives:
Although haplotypes 22, 24, and 41 were probably all involved in the Bantu expansion, the processes that determined the current distribution of these haplotypes in the Sudanese belt (a region south of the Sahara extending from western to central Africa) seem to have been more complex and perhaps involved a separate expansion. In particular, haplotype 24 and its derivative, haplotype 22, harbor opposite clinal distributions in the region, a finding that is at odds with the hypothesis of a parallel dispersion of these two lineages in the area.
Haplotype 22 has a frequency of 23% in Cameroon (where it represents 42% of haplotypes carrying the DYS271 mutation), 13% in Burkina Faso (16% of haplotypes carrying the DYS271 mutation) and only 1% in Senegal (Semino et al. 2002), whereas haplotype 24 reaches its highest frequency (81%) in Senegal (Semino et al. 2002).
A possible explanation might be that haplotype 24 chromosomes were already present across the Sudanese belt when the M191 mutation, which defines haplotype 22, arose in central western Africa. Only then would a later demic expansion have brought haplotype 22 chromosomes from central western to western Africa, giving rise to the opposite clinal distributions of haplotypes 22 and 24. - Cruciani et al. 2002
^This suggests that the oldest E3a bearing population(s) ultimately moved to the far west corner of the continent.
From Semino et al. 2004, we have:
It is also of interest, that the Senegalese samples have higher E3* frequency, which attains its highest frequency in Ethiopian populations, than the Bantu speaking groups, where the only group tested positive, was that of the South African Bantu sample:
Bantu (South Africa) - E3* = 1.9%, Senegalese - E3* = 2.9%, Ethiopian (Amhara) - E3* = 10.4%, Ethiopian (Oromo) - E3* = 12.8% in the ascending order.
The Senegalese sample also bears the E-M.35* lineages:
Bantu (South Africa) = 15.1%, Burkina Faso = 11.3%, Khoisan (South Africa) = 4.6%, Sudan = 5%, North Cameroon = 3.3%, Senegalese = 2.9%, Ethiopian (Oromo) = 1.3%
Looking at this data, among predominantly E3a-bearing Niger-Congo language speakers, Senegalese groups have the highest E3* frequency, as well as E-M35*. It follows the North Cameroon sample in this instance, in the E-M78 frequencies - though I’m not sure if those North Cameroon samples comprise of Niger-Congo speaking groups, Nilo-Saharan or some other language phylum group. In west Africa, it succeeds only Mali [and Niger, which wasn‘t included in this sample]- as one of the areas which have considerable Niger-Congo speakers - to have E-M81 bearing candidates, but then, Mali is also well known for its Saharan Tamazight speakers.
^Some might look at a lineage as, say E-M78 and imagine it to be a trace of interaction with Saharan or coastal North African Afrasan speaking groups, but microsatellite inspection would indicate otherwise:
It is interesting that both E-P2* and E-M35* and their derivatives, E-M78 and E-M123, exhibit in Ethiopians the 12-repeat allele at the DYS392 microsatellite locus, an allele scarcely seen (Y-Chromosome STR Database), especially in other haplogroups and other populations (A.S.S.-B., unpublished data). In addition, the Ethiopian DYS392-12 allele is usually associated with the unusually short DYS19-11 allele, which is typical of this area. These findings are not easily explained. One possible scenario is that an ancient differentiation of the E-P2 haplogroup occurred in loco (East Africa). However, this also implies a low mutability of the associated microsatellite motif (DYS392-12/DYS19-11). Alternatively, the microsatellite motif may be due to homoplasy.
The first scenario is more likely, since this unique microsatellite haplotype occurs in E-P2*, E-M35*, and E-M78 but is almost absent in all other haplogroups and populations. In addition, the high stability of the DYS392 locus (Brinkmann et al. 1998; Nebel et al. 2001) and of the shorter alleles of DYS19 (Carvalho-Silva et al. 1999) has been reported elsewhere. Moreover, the observation that the derivative E-M78 displays the DYS392-12/DYS19-11 haplotype suggests that it also arose in East Africa. This is illustrated by the microsatellite network (fig. 3, shaded area), which reveals that the Ethiopian branch harboring DYS392-12 is not shared with either Near Eastern or European populations.
The Ethiopian sample may not share the said allele with those populations mentioned, including the northwest African samples as far as I can tell, but it does share the said allele with the Senegalese sample, which would suggest that the Senegalese M78 derivative didn’t come from interaction with its northwest African neighbors; rather, they may well be relics of ancient migrations from east to west.
Source: Semino et al., Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y‐Chromosome Haplogroups E and J, 2004.
Some time during post 11ky ago expansions into the wet Sahara, before its return to aridity, with activity going on across the Saharan expanse, like cattle domestication for example, E3a bearers spread well into central-east Sahara. It was likely during this period that HbS mutations were localized, with the oldest E3a bearing groups nearer to the Atlantic-hugging west coasts bearing the Senegalese haplotype, while the Benin haplotype was able to have a more far-reaching expansion northward and northeast ward, due its situation in Niger River Valley vis-à-vis North Africa and the rest of the Sahara.
Posted the whole thing this time around, because the first time I posted a link to it, some were apparently too unenergetic to open it, look inside, and learn something...or at least raise questions where necessary.
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posted
That's a lot of information, thank you...can we exclude the Sahel/Sahara corridor as an area where E3 split into E3a and E3b based on that information?
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ MS, since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
I likely will, if you can first tell me why I'm obligated to do that.
^
It's possible to ask a polite question, with no threat intended.
I didn't know that anyone was ever under any obligation to answer any question on ES. (??) Silence for example is always a valid alternative.
Now, i'm going to tell you something that is true, and you will argue with, because you don't want to hear it:
You treat questions like threats, because you use them as weapons. And in turn, you are instinctively 'threatened' by them, when no threat is intended.
This is one of the reasons that so many of your conversations begin in civil discourse, and escalate to the point of profanity, which in turn has led to you being banned from this forum.
You've done this with Djehuti, with AlTakruri, with Thought, and you've attempted this kind of petty nastiness with me as well.... I'm not asking you to change either, because, I don't think you can help it.
You've never dragged me down to this level, because, once I detect the signs of rabid behavior from you, I simply ignore you.
And that's what i'm going to do now....
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Habari: That's a lot of information, thank you...can we exclude the Sahel/Sahara corridor as an area where E3 split into E3a and E3b based on that information?
What information specifically excludes sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b?
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It's possible to ask a polite question, with no threat intended.
Is it possible to ask a polite question, without being assumptive [and in a strawman kind of way] in its context?
The rest of your garble is just ad hominem bs that you pass off as "truth", because you were caught red-handed trying to put words in my mouth - which fyi, is not what any sane person would call 'civil' or 'polite'. I don't start ad-hominem, flame baits or gutter talk, but I do see to it that I finish it through, once I'm dragged into it. You yourself have gotten away with instigating and flame baiting...just like you're doing at this very moment, and so, I'm not sure from what "moral" pedestal you assume to be speaking from - other than gloat over the idea that dogma-motivated mods have historically ignored them.
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That's a lot of information, thank you...can we exclude the Sahel/Sahara corridor as an area where E3 split into E3a and E3b based on that information?
I would, based on the geological, archaeological and genealogical particulars I had outlined above, but as you know, science isn't a static undertaking...new information can come along at any moment and reset our thinking, of which if there is any, I welcome its presentation.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
^It is not where "I" stand, it is where the "preponderance of evidence" stands. The information I shed light on, via those multidisciplines, unless you're prepared to produce alternative evidence, does in fact make the Sahara a very less likely place of the split. Do you have alternative evidence, that outweights those I have taken into consideration?
But of course, it is your choice to accept preponderance of scientific facts or leave it; but your choice doesn't change anything.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
It takes a great deal of stretch of the imagination to think of mate 'make-feel-good' agreements, *lacking* any semblance of *evidence* or substance, as science; there is a word for it though: it is called 'dogma'. It is what has come to be expected from sites like stormfront and to some extent, dodona...and now Egyptsearch seems to be catching the bug, if it already hasn't.
At any rate, for those who are well-versed in what *basic* science is, the door is still open for *alternative evidence* to that already put forth, in rendering the Sahara as an unlikely venue for the split.
^If not, then one is left with two choices:
Either "silence is gold"...or else, take the stormfront route, which is, to find a mate and simply agree on the 'make-feel-good' but scientifically, evidentially and perhaps intellectually bankrupt. Either way, scientific material that has been posted without challenge, remains the current scientific fact of the matter.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
To the dogmatics, lacking any vestige of critical thinking; check this out:
Rasol says:
What information specifically excludes sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b?
For one, this:
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). - Cruciani et al. 2004, Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup E3b.
Cannot have split in the Sahara, if it is deemed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa, now can it?
Secondly, Set of geological, archaeological and genealogical facts laid out, not only buttress the above, but also show E3a's unlikely origin in the Sahara as well.
Disagree? Present evidence to the contrary of these facts.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). - Cruciani et al. 2004, Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup E3b.
^ This is correct.
Can mystery solver explain *why* he thinks the above is in contradiction to...
sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b? (??)
Notwithstanding that the sahel is also sub-saharan, understanding the area of the split actually requires us to know the range of underived E3.
Underived E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal.
Ethiopia also has underived E3b, whereas Senegal has underived E3a.
How Mystery solver thinks E3 got to Ethiopia and Senegal without crossing the sahara/sahel he doesn't say.
It remains a mystery.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). - Cruciani et al. 2004, Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup E3b.
^ This is correct.
...which would therefore render this incorrect:
sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b? - rasol
quote:rasol:
Can mystery solver explain *why* he thinks the above is in contradiction to...
sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b?
Simple: Because of the glaring fact that the Sahara is not "sub-Saharan", duh. It is simple geography not even your kindergarten sibling will fail, like you're doing, I can guarantee you that. Btw, ever read the Cruciani et al. 2004 publication in question? Doesn't sound like you have.
quote:rasol:
(???) Notwithstanding that the sahel is also sub-saharan, understanding the area of the split actually requires us to know the range of underived E3.
*Spinning* yourself to dizziness, huh!...by first treating the Sahara and Sahel as though they were one and same as evidenced by "sahara/sahel", and now, trying to transition into saying that the Sahel is "sub-Saharan"...the hallmark of crack-.science. So it will be 'sahel/sub-Saharan' next, right?
quote:rasol:
Underived E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal.
Ethiopia also has underived E3b, whereas Senegal has underived E3a.
This has got be so stupid that it will likely read off a 'barometer' measuring stupidity. If you bothered to do simple reading, you'd have learnt that not only is E3 rare in Sahara, which you keep bragging about being the place of origin, but that it has the highest frequencies in Ethiopia. It has *much* lower frequencies in Senegal. Do yourself a favor; read!
quote:rasol:
How Mystery solver thinks E3 got to Ethiopia and Senegal without crossing the sahara/sahel he doesn't say.
You would avoid a strange lie like this, if only you were energetic enough or intellectually powerful enough to bother reading, like every normal being does.
Already posted above, but ignored by rasol:
Both phylogeography and microsatellite variance suggest that E-P2 and its derivative, E-M35, probably originated in eastern Africa. This inference is further supported by the presence of additional Hg E lineal diversification and by the highest frequency of E-P2* and E-M35* in the same region. The distribution of E-P2* appears limited to eastern African peoples. The E-M35* lineage shows its highest frequency (19.2%) in the Ethiopian Oromo but with a wider distribution range than E-P2*. - Semino et al., Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J.
quote:rasol:
It remains a mystery.
^Petty smokescreen. The real mystery here, is the whereabouts of your 'evidence' contrary to what's been presented. Where is your "evidence to the contrary" or even evidence pointing to specified origins in the Sahara?
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
^Ps - bypassing my post, several threads up, *jam-packed with multi-disciplinary evidence*, is unacceptable. Each evidential point presented must be refuted with *counter-evidence*.
Trolling is unacceptable response as well....well, let's just say that it won't make any dent on the intellectual and scientific legitimacy of my thesis, at any rate.
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