Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). - Cruciani et al. 2004, Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup E3b.
^ This is correct.
quote:Mystery Solver:...which would therefore render this incorrect:
sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b? - rasol
No it does not actually.
And again I ask you to explain, why you feel the two statements are at odds?
quote:MS: the glaring fact that the Sahara is not "sub-Saharan"
^ Glaring omission of sahel in your statement, which *is* sub-saharan makes this a strawman argument.
The fact that Cruciani is discussing the origin of E3b, and not the *area where E3 split* [two distinct events] is another reason the above is a strawman argument.
The two statements are in fact *NOT* in conflict because they are discussing two distinct events.
You originally did not understand this.
Now that I have explained it to you.... you will simply refuse to understand it, since that's your signature method of generating monunmentally pointless argument threads, which usually end with your screaming profanities in all directions.
quote:Mystery solver writes: Petty smokescreen
^ Petty argument, based on petty distortion. Pointless and useless. Booo.....
You're back on the ignore list again Mystery solver.
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quote: MS: the glaring fact that the Sahara is not "sub-Saharan"
^ Glaring omission of sahel in your statement, which *is* sub-saharan makes this a strawman argument.
Trying to disown your "Sahara/Sahel" claim, upon realization that you can't defend it with all the best skills at your disposal...by saying that the Sahel is tantamount to sub-Saharan Africa, won't work, as it doesn't get any more sensible even if you tried [and I'm sure that's where you're heading] to rewrite it out as "Sahara/sub-Saharan".
Amusingly, you tried to defend someone's claim of E3's likely origins in the Sahara [upon which you even placed words in his mouth], but ended up exposing yourself as anti-literacy, as well as geographically and scientifically clueless.
quote:rasol:
The fact that Cruciani is discussing the origin of E3b, and not the *area where E3 split* [two distinct events] is another reason the above is a strawman argument.
dummy, E3b split from E3. So, if E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa, it could not have been in the Sahara [which is not "sub-Saharan" fyi]. You've already been informed about the likely origin of E3 in sub-Saharan East Africa. Your so-called "answers" get stranger by each reply.
quote:rasol:
The two statements are in fact *NOT* in conflict because they are discussing two distinct events.
Buy yourself a clue...or steal one, if you have to.
quote:rasol:
You originally did not understand this.
Now that I have explained it to you.... you will simply refuse to understand it, since that's your signature method of generating monunmentally pointless argument threads, which usually end with your screaming profanities in all directions.
Done making an ass out of yourself? If so, then produce that elusive evidence I asked of you, counter to the geological, archeological and genealogical specifics I presented for my thesis, point by point.
quote:rasol:
Petty argument, based on petty distortion. Pointless and useless. Booo.....
You're back on the ignore list again Mystery solver.
Resorting to your trademark infantile whimpering as the best "comeback" to intellectual humiliation on issues you don't understand. What we don't have as of yet, and likely never will, is your elusive evidence of E3 origins in the Sahara, and even less, its split into E3a and E3b sister clades.
Ps - make yourself useful, and familiarize yourself with Cruciani et al. 2004
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The Sahel is in the Sub-Sahara and goes up to Eritrea shore lines...
...unless you have specific evidence of E3 originating in the "Sahel", not sure what your point is. See: prior page on E3 geographical origin.
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quote:Originally posted by Habari: The Sahel is in the Sub-Sahara and goes up to Eritrea shore lines...
Correct again.
Notice MS says he isn't *sure* what the point is, though he specifically used the term sub-sahara as if to somehow refute sahel.
In other words...he *understands the point of your remarks very well,* he understood it when he made his strawman argument to begin with.
This is why I show him no patience and refuse to indulge his need for pointless cat fights.
I value my time too much.
Let's move on.
We know that underived E3 is present in Senegal and Ethiopia.
Yet somehow populations carrying this lineage became separated.
This is all E3a and E3b represents.
- the separation of two E3 populations who would later begin carrying descrete mutations E3a in the west central of Africa, and E3b from the SouthEast to NorthEast and spaning thru the North.
The question is where did this separation occur?
The sahara/sahel corridor is the obvious choice, because it provides a migration path where the parent lineage [E3] is found on both end points, and the earliest versions of the child lineages [E3a and E3b] are also found on the opposite ends.
Morever the sahara/sahel corridor can also help explain the -cause- of the separation when you understand that migration paths open/and close east to west with the expanse and retraction of the desert. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I agree very much with that post, especially when we know that the Sahel/Sahara corridor was one of the main areas if not the main area of intra-continental dispersion of early Africans...it's dangerous to minimize its importance...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Notice MS says he isn't *sure* what the point is, though he specifically used the term sub-sahara as if to somehow refute sahel.
Let me educate you.
I said I wasn't sure what the guy's point is, obviously because he pointed to the Sahara as the likely origin of E3, which he says that he figures, because that's where it was mainly found. As it turns out, he was wrong. Guess who comes in, to say that he was correct...none other than rasol. See:
Habari says:
it's interesting to see that the precursors of E3a and E3b are mainly found in the Sahara corridor, which could be an indication of the African dispersal through the Sahara… - Habari
I asked:
These precursors found in the Sahara are specifically designated by what?
rasol interjects:
The precursor of E3b and E3a is E3...
So yes, I agree with the premise that the sahara or sahel was a likely ancient corridor for these lineages, bearing in mind that at different times in history sahara desert scarsely exists, and that much of this area would be open savana.
So, you see, rasol was putting words in Habari's mouth, for the guy mentioned the "Sahara", which was questioned, by way of this agreement, speaking of the "Sahara or Sahel" [which he repeats everywhere, until now of course] as though they were two indistinguishable entities.
Habari then comes back with:
E3* carrier probably originated in Ethiopia where the frequency is the highest and derived throughout the Sahara corridor, the data might suggest that since it is found in the Sahel region as well...
I follow it up with:
Are you suggesting that E3a and E3b derived in the Sahara? If so, elaborate...
Which regions do you understand by "in the Sahel region"?
rasol interjects again:
MS, since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
Note again, the lack of distinction between "Sahara" and "Sahel".
I cite my thesis, upon which Habari says:
That's a lot of information, thank you...can we exclude the Sahel/Sahara corridor as an area where E3 split into E3a and E3b based on that information?
Rasol follows that up with:
What information specifically excludes sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b?
Consistent association of Sahara with Sahel. It is of note, that my thesis precisely argues for E3a and E3b splits in sub-Saharan Africa, to which rasol asks the other poster this question. Now, he wants the gullible to buy into the notion that he actually knew the distinction between the Sahel, which he now says is sub-Saharan Africa, and the Sahara. What rasol was trying to do, was to take the supposed 'split' of out of the realm of sub-Saharan Africa, and place it in the Sahara, which is why he kept using Sahara/Sahel as though they were two indiscriminate entities. The only problem with this undertaking, as rasol is finding out, is that it has no legs to stand on, intellectually speaking. Hence, his recent move to saying "Sahel" is "sub-Saharan", upon being given a good dose of reality that E3b arose in "sub-Saharan" Africa, by that Cruciani piece. The implications should have been clear: If E3b rose in sub-Saharan Africa, then it goes without saying, this is where E3 split into that marker.
quote:rasol:
In other words...he *understands the point of your remarks very well,* he understood it when he made his strawman argument to begin with.
When you've brushed adequately on basic geography and the rudimentary rules of science, I'll be glad to discuss with you complex issues about your mind reading capabilities.
quote:rasol:
This is why I show him no patience and refuse to indulge his need for pointless cat fights.
I value my time too much.
Let's move on.
In other words, use Habari's pointless statement and use as a cover to duck requests to produce counter-evidence to what you objected to. Undisguised copout.
quote:rasol:
We know that underived E3 is present in Senegal and Ethiopia.
Yet somehow populations carrying this lineage became separated.
As a matter of fact, yes. dummy, as you've been informed more than once now: One has the highest frequency, and is deemed to be the likely point of origin, while the other doesn't.
quote:rasol:
This is all E3a and E3b represents.
You're making about much sense as a baby randomly scribbling on paper.
quote:rasol:
- the separation of two E3 populations who would later begin carrying descrete mutations E3a in the west central of Africa, and E3b from the SouthEast to NorthEast and spaning thru the North.
What evidence do you have that E3 split into clades E3a and E3b in the Sahara?
quote:rasol:
The question is where did this separation occur?[
The sahara/sahel corridor is the obvious choice, because it provides a migration path where the parent lineage [E3] is found on both end points, and the earliest versions of the child lineages [E3a and E3b] are also found on the opposite ends.
dummy, E3 is rare in the Sahara. How then can you latch onto the Sahara as the likely route, as though no other route exists? What is your archaeological and genetic susbtance behind this weird idea? I've provided one, counter to this claim, backed with those type of evidence that you have yet to address.
quote:rasol:
Morever the sahara/sahel corridor can also help explain the -cause- of the separation when you understand that migration paths open/and close east to west with the expanse and retraction of the desert.
Well, obviously the rectraction and expansion has figured into the movement of populations back and forth. What does this have to do with the geographical origin of either E3, E3a or E3b?
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quote:Originally posted by Habari: I agree very much with that post, especially when we know that the Sahel/Sahara corridor was one of the main areas if not the main area of intra-continental dispersion of early Africans...it's dangerous to minimize its importance...
Dangerous? I don't know.
But it's clear that the expanse and retraction of the deserts in North Africa play a powerful role in Africa's biohistory.
Keita for example theorizes that the drying of the sahara was one of the causes of the convergence of African populations in the Nile Valley and the resultant rise of Nile Valley civilisation.
Anyway, good contributions to the forum. Look forward to your future posts.
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Ps - make yourself useful, and familiarize yourself with Cruciani et al. 2004
It would allow you to understand the context of the authors in question:
E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% (Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study), but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa…
…E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber language - Cruciani et al. 2004
Don't think "Sahel" or the "Sahara", or yet "Sahara/Sahel" was exactly in Cruciani's mind when he said:
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene (Underhill et al. 2001). - Cruciani et al. 2004, Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup E3b.
The authors go onto point out:
The paragroup E-M35* has been observed at high frequencies in both eastern (10.5%) and southern (15.2%) Africa, with rare occurrences in northern Africa and Europe (0.4% and 0.5%, respectively). The paragroup has a high microsatellite allele variance (0.63), comparable to that of the whole set of E3b(xE3b1*) chromosomes (0.53), suggesting that E-M35* is a collection of several lineages whose relationships to other E3b haplogroups remain to be established. Nevertheless, the observed distribution of E-M35* can shed light on the history of peopling of Africa. For example,we found E-M35* and E-M78 chromosomes in Bantu-speaking populations from Kenya (14.3%) but not in those living in central Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002), the area in which the Bantu expansion originated (Vansina 1984). In agreement with mtDNA data (Salas et al. 2002), this finding suggests a relevant contribution of eastern African peoples to the gene pool of the eastern Bantu. Also, the extensive interpopulation E-M35* microsatellite diversity (fig. 2A) between Ethiopians and Khoisan indicates that eastern Africans and Khoisan have been separated for a considerable period of time, as has been suggested elsewhere (Scozzari et al. 1999; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002).
It is clear, what the authors mean by “sub-Saharan Africa” here.
,we found E-M35* and E-M78 chromosomes in Bantu-speaking populations from Kenya (14.3%) but not in those living in central Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002), the area in which the Bantu expansion originated (Vansina 1984).
…but its low frequencies in the Senegalese, along with that rare-allele bearing M78 chromosome that the Senegalese sample shared with Ethiopian sample, speak of east to west migration…as already noted in my thesis, bearing in mind archaeological evidence.
quote:Originally posted by Habari:
I agree very much with that post, especially when we know that the Sahel/Sahara corridor was one of the main areas if not the main area of intra-continental dispersion of early Africans...it's dangerous to minimize its importance...
Then you should be intellectually ready to produce counter-evidence to my thesis, which you described as being a lot of information earlier on...I assume you understood it, when you made that comment.
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The sahara/sahel corridor is the obvious choice, because it provides a migration path where the parent lineage [E3] is found on both end points, and the earliest versions of the child lineages [E3a and E3b] are also found on the opposite ends.
dummy, E3 is rare in the Sahara. How then can you latch onto the Sahara as the likely route, as though no other route exists? What is your archaeological and genetic susbtance behind this weird idea? I've provided one, counter to this claim, backed with those type of evidence that you have yet to address.
Indeed, and as a brief recap:
Geological consideration:
The rise of E3a coincides with the Ogolian aridity, wherein the desert expands to its most southern boundaries in history. [See Semino et al. 2004 TMRCA dates; other sources, Knight et al. 2003]
Geographical origin taken into consideration with geological condition during the timeframe in question, along with archaeological indicators [below], and hence, point of separation between E3 sister-clade bearing groups:
- PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a* [as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period.
Archaeological consideration:
-The E3a bearing group would proceed westward, perhaps meeting groups of earlier lineages at the Shum Laka region of Cameroon, whereby quartz micro-lithic culture had already been in place by around 30 ky ago, hence preceding the rise of E3a common recent ancestor. But this group wouldn’t stay put here, at least not every section of it; they’d proceed to the savanna, grassland or vegetation holdouts in West Africa beyond the then boundaries of the Sahara. This probably occurred some time between 15ky and 13ky ago...
Others taking refuge in the Cameroonian savanna-tropical forest general region probably followed suit, that is - after the aforementioned initial batch of migrants [bearing E3a descendants]; or else, the same group of people [from the initial migrants] shifted locations along the west African vegetation belts, once it became apparent that the far western reaches didn’t have much to offer, but the water system [as part of the Niger River] - however relatively shallow or what not - offered something additional. Finally, when the conditions in the Sahara were turning around for the better, starting between ~ 12ky and 11ky ago, these migrants would proceed northward, leaving the sort of trails that find expression at Ounjougou - Mali:
10th millennium BC ~ 12ky ago: At Ounjougou - "It is not until the Holocene and the return of humid climatic conditions, beginning in the 10th millennium BC, that it is possible to again observe evidence of human occupation." - Aziz Ballouche [see: http://atlas-conferences.com/c/a/m/u/05.htm ]]
"Consequently, it has to be seen in the context of heavy rainfalls and a resettlement of the vegetation cover, during the 10th millennium BC, that a new population arrives on the Plateau of Bandiagara." - Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa [see: [ http://anthro.unige.ch/lap/ounjougou/earlyneo.html ]]
And...
From 30,600 to 10,000 BC: "A cultural flow, from the southeast of Subsaharan Africa and to the Sahara, could explain the diffusion of the microlithic industries all the way through West Africa. We observe them initially in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30.600-29.000 BC), then at the Ivory Coast in Bingerville (14.100-13.400 BC), in Nigeria in Iwo Eleru (11.460-11.050 BC), and finally in Ounjougou (phase 1, 10th millennium BC)." - Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa [see: [ http://anthro.unige.ch/lap/ounjougou/earlyneo.html ]]
- Its very probable that this E3a bearing group(s) came into contact with the then wandering earlier-inhabitants of west Africa, who would have been pressured to move southward beyond the then Saharan desert boundaries, due to progressing aridity of the Ogolian period. These groups could have brought their central-Saharan pottery [e.g. found in Niger] traditions with them [developed perhaps sometime during the transitioning period to the wetter phase of the Sahara], just as the E3a bearing group(s) brought the microlithic traditions that they possibly picked up in the vicinity of the Shum Laka region [see above excerpt carbon dating estimations of finds] …and/or else…the new migrants produced their own versions of pottery in their new found location [as it is not noted whether these pottery had affinities with examples found in the aforementioned central Saharan region], at a time when it was trendy to carry stuff in pottery ware in the Saharan-Sahelian zone, with the filling up river systems due to the Monsoon rains.
So, a non-Saharan route has been presented above, backed by multidisciplinary evidence; implications of genetic evidence had been laid out in the first page of this thread, but for more of the same in one site, go here:
Meanwhile I await the goof troop, something of a stormfront-like brotherhood [aka rasol - Habari dogmatic team] to come up with alternative counter-evidence and specifics.
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That's a lot of information, thank you...can we exclude the Sahel/Sahara corridor as an area where E3 split into E3a and E3b based on that information? - Habari
The answer is: Yes...pending counter-evidence.
What information specifically excludes sahara/sahel corridor as and area where E3 split to E3a and E3b? - rasol
The post above and its associated link...pending counter-evidence.
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posted
Where E3a is the most diverse in Africa? That would be a better way to identify the origin of E3a first and then we can move up the ladder...I'm still open to more information from MS and thank him for his effort...but let's move on a little bit in the debate...where is E3a the most diverse in Africa?
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Highest frequency is in West Africa. This information was provided in my post that you purported to have read.
quote:Habari:
That would be a better way to identify the origin of E3a first and then we can move up the ladder...
Again, it is outlined in my above mentioned post. I'm beginning to get the idea that you either didn't actually read the post, as you proclaimed to have, and/or you simply didn't understand it. In fact, both your questions and that of rasol's seem to be symptomatic of lack of will to read what was presented and/or lack of understanding the material at hand.
quote:Habari:
I'm still open to more information from MS and thank him for his effort...
Why?...as if the long-winded chronological post I already provided you was not informative enough. It was long-winded for a reason: the bulk of the post is almost exclusively a presentation of evidential material along with their implications...none of which you address, but claim to want more. Ever heard of the expression, "biting off more than what you can chew"? Well, that's what you're doing. You are not yet capable of fully grasping what was already given to you, and yet, you are asking for more?
quote:Habari:
but let's move on a little bit in the debate...where is E3a the most diverse in Africa?
This discussion will move on, once you point out what you supposedly object to about the presentation I provided you with, explain why it does NOT make it *clear* that the Sahara - which you and rasol seem to use interchangeably with the "Sahel" - is an unlikely region of the rise of either E3a or E3b [from E3], or the initial divergance point of E3a groups from their sister-clade counterpart [E3b] groups in populations sharing the most recent common ancestor [i.e. E-P2 (E3)].
Fyi, dismissal of scientific evidence from either the standpoint of scientific ignorance and/or willful refusal to read the provided evidence, coupled with lack of capacity to provide counter-evidence, does NOT in any way constitute refuting the given case at hand.
Also, learn to man up; you seem to give in quickly, when people question you, because you take it for granted that they will prove you wrong. I can tell you right now, for example, when rasol asked you that question upon your reaction to the material I provided you with, he was no more intellectually better off than you were, in addressing that material. Like you, he had no alternative explanation. Like you, he was oblivious to the fact that E3 is even rarer in the Sahara than it is in sub-Saharan Africa. Like you, he either willfully didn't read the material you were provided with, and/or just couldn't fully grasp it. Like you, he proceeded to ask questions on matters, to which he would have otherwise found the answers in the body of the said material provided, had he bothered to do the simple task of reading it. Like you, he was and is unwilling to dispose of preconceived notions, rendered obsolete or nullified by new evidence or counter-evidence...and you then wonder why the discussion regresses instead of progressing?!
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posted
^ MS, you yourself stated that science is not static and new information is found all the time that would modify theories. The Sahel but especially the Sahara region is a vast place with sparse populations that have not been fully studied. Do you not think it possible that later evidence very well could prove that the E3 split occurred in that area??
Posts: 26326 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Secondly, Set of geological, archaeological and genealogical facts laid out, not only buttress the above, but also show E3a's unlikely origin in the Sahara as well.
Disagree? Present evidence to the contrary of these facts.
Either "silence is gold"...or else, take the stormfront route, which is, to find a mate and simply agree on the 'make-feel-good' but scientifically, evidentially and perhaps intellectually bankrupt. Either way, scientific material that has been posted without challenge, remains the current scientific fact of the matter.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehu The Sahel but especially the Sahara region is a vast place with sparse populations that have not been fully studied. Do you not think it possible that later evidence very well could prove that the E3 split occurred in that area??
->
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
Does anyone care to actually answer this question which Mystery Solver attempts to dodge with irrelevant ranting and borish insults?
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quote:Originally posted by Habari: Where E3a is the most diverse in Africa?
Actually what you want to know is where underived E3a and it's parent E3 are both located [Senegal], and also where E3b and it's parent, again E3 are located [Ethiopia].
In order for the E3 lineage to split into discrete lineages it must 1st separate into isolate populations.
The order of events is as follows.
1) The development of E3 amongst a single population.
2) a split in this population into two or more separated E3 [NOT E3a or E3b] populations.
3) the development of E3b marker in one of these populations.
4) the development of E3a from another of these populations.
This are 4 distinct events.
Mystery Solver does not understand this.
He wants to imply that he thinks the question of where E3b, or E3a originated is the same question as to where E3 split, however they are distinct issues.
He knows this.
This is why he chose not to answer my question, but rather hurl insults and carry the discussion off into irrelevant directions.
Anyone who disagrees can simply answer my question.
I will ignore any response that does not.
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^ MS, you yourself stated that science is not static and new information is found all the time that would modify theories. The Sahel but especially the Sahara region is a vast place with sparse populations that have not been fully studied. Do you not think it possible that later evidence very well could prove that the E3 split occurred in that area??
Yes, do you have that evidence? If so, then let’s have it.
On another note, I said earlier:
Like you, he either willfully didn't read the material you were provided with, and/or just couldn't fully grasp it. Like you, he proceeded to ask questions on matters, to which he would have otherwise found the answers in the body of the said material provided, had he bothered to do the simple task of reading it.
^Case in point >
Originally posted by rasol:
Since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?...
Does anyone care to actually answer this question which Mystery Solver attempts to dodge with irrelevant ranting and borish insults?
Which was nonetheless answered before, with this:
That “answer” [to that brainless question of yours] was given in The post above and its associated link…pending counter-evidence…or are you too obtuse to read and provide your counter-evidence, if you have any?
Is anybody else, besides rasol [and his potential stooge(s)], too obtuse to take note of the above? It is either that, or he has no alternative, but reduced to repeating brainless questions that have already been answered in the passage in question.
Meanwhile, he doesn't produce that elusive evidence for divergence of E3a and E3b groups in the Sahara, or "Sahel", as you uses interchangeably. No evidence of E3b or E3a split in the Sahara or "Sahel"...just cheap talk via trolling.
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1) The development of E3 amongst a single population.
2) a split in this population into two or more separated E3 [NOT E3a or E3b] populations.
3) the development of E3b marker in one of these populations.
4) the development of E3a from another of these populations.
This are 4 distinct events.
Mystery Solver does not understand this.
You are reduced to nonsensical mind reading games, because you are intellectually powerless to do a simple reading of my post, to see that this is just petty bunk talk. To you, archaeological, geological, genetic, TMRCA dates given, specific geographic points of origin given, etc. all count for nothing, because you are powerless to understand the science in the first place, much less provide counter evidence.
quote:rasol:
He wants to imply that he thinks the question of where E3b, or E3a originated is the same question as to where E3 split, however they are distinct issues.
Both E3 split from its predecessor, and those of E3b and E3a split from E3 respectively was given to this knucklehead called rasol. Not anyone's fault that you are too scientifically obtuse to take it home.
quote:rasol:
This is why he chose not to answer my question, but rather hurl insults and carry the discussion off into irrelevant directions.
Anyone who disagrees can simply answer my question.
I will ignore any response that does not.
redundant smokescreen. Get busy doing the following:
1) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3 origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
2) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3b origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
3) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3a origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
4) Show us where E3a bearing groups and E3b bearing groups diverged from their E3-bearing ancestral populations, with multi-disciplinary evidence.
In otherwords, refute all the multi-disciplinary evidential points that I made a case out of, and explain the associated events thereof. Time to stop cheap talk via trolling, start listening and producing counter-evidence.
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quote:Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info];
Why not West Africa since that's where it is more diverse and where we have a high frequency of underived E3a*?
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:rasol:Anyone who disagrees can simply answer my question.
Since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
YES OR NO?
quote:MS: redundant smokescreen
^ Non answer. Actually every sentense you write [and there have been waay too many of them] that does not answer my question is what constitutes the failed attempt at smokescreen.
But don't worry.
Everyone sees that you don't have and answer, and we expect you to continue to babble away *all the louder* in a futile attempt to hide your inability to answer my question.
As for your 4 requests for evidence, they are all requests for proof of things which I do not assert, which defines strawmen arguments, not and answer to my question which simply requires a yes, or a no.
Not my fault that you are too busy rant-arguing to bother the listen to what what was actually said.
And this is why I ignore you.
Maybe you should just stick to name-calling then, since you have no answers.
Anyway, you're cute when you're wrong, you know you're wrong, and angry about it. So you provide entertainment, if nothing else. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info];
Why not West Africa since that's where it is more diverse and where we have a high frequency of underived E3a*?
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.
Correct. It's unlikely that E3a would have been born in Uganda/Kenya.
The lineage in East Africa south of the Sahara/Sahel [corridor] is almost *entirely* associated with the Bantu expansion. It isn't found in Ethiopia for example where there are also no Bantu. It would be extremely difficut to explain Underived E3a and E3's presense in Senegal but not Ethiopia if E3a lineage had originated in Uganda and Kenya which border Ethiopia. (??)
For reasons which should be self-evident: Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info];
Why not West Africa since that's where it is more diverse and where we have a high frequency of underived E3a*?
For the reasons I stated in that post I gave you earlier. The real question is, do you understand those reasons?
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Why your reasons conflict with the following study:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:rasol:Anyone who disagrees can simply answer my question.
Since E3 is found in Ethiopia and Senegal, do you have and alternate theory as to how it reached both locations without crossing the Sahel/Sahara?
YES OR NO?
Redundant smokescreen. Do you have counter evidence to what chronological and genealogical details I posted; yes or no?
Do you understand the science cited in the post? Yes or no? If so, how do you intend to refute them?
quote:rasol:
quote:MS: redundant smokescreen
^ Non answer. Actually every sentense you write [and there have been waay too many of them] that does not answer my question is what constitutes the failed attempt at smokescreen.
But don't worry.
I don't need to, but you should be, for not having the intellectual capacity to do this...
Get busy doing the following:
1) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3 origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
2) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3b origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
3) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3a origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
4) Show us where E3a bearing groups and E3b bearing groups diverged from their E3-bearing ancestral populations, with multi-disciplinary evidence.
In otherwords, refute all the multi-disciplinary evidential points that I made a case out of, and explain the associated events thereof. Time to stop cheap talk via trolling, start listening and producing counter-evidence.
quote:rasol:
Everyone sees that you don't have and answer
Name each of these "everyone", and have them do what you haven't been able to do: understand the science at hand, and provide counter-evidence to my thesis.
quote:rasol:
and we expect you to continue to babble away *all the louder* in a futile attempt to hide your inability to answer my question.
Whose this "we" business. Are you suffering from multiple personality disorder? The only person who appears not to understand a post in simple English, is you, which is why you are reduced to repeating thoughtless questions that had long been addressed by my posts nonetheless.
quote:rasol:
As for your 4 requests for evidence, they are all requests for proof of things which I do not assert, which defines strawmen arguments, not and answer to my question which simply requires a yes, or a no.
You say that no information excludes E3 from originating in the "Sahara/Sahel", two entities that you use as one and same and/or interchangeably. I responded by telling you, that the thesis I posted does make your "Sahara/Sahel" an unlikely region for the splits of either E3, E3a or E3b. What does this mean? Apparently, you are too block-headed to get that for an answer.
If you don't read the post in question, well then, the intellectual deficit fault lies with you,...for not being capable of doing simple thing as reading the post in question, as suggested...and thereby provide counter-evidence, if you disagreed.
quote:rasol:
Not my fault that you are too busy rant-arguing to bother the listen to what what was actually said.
Of course it is your fault...that I have to keep asking you to produce your elusive counter-evidence to my thesis.
Your claim that nothing excludes E3a and E3b split in the "Sahara/Sahel", is obviously the anti-thesis of my thesis, as anybody who is capable of reading would tell you.
quote:rasol:
And this is why I ignore you.
Actually, whenever you use that term "ignore", it is your way of admitting to a copout, and that you actually are leg-less and clueless about the issues at hand.
quote:rasol:
Maybe you should just stick to name-calling then, since you have no answers.
If you can point out what about my thesis constitutes having "no answers", I might actually start believing that you have a brain after all. Until then...
Here's something for you to get busy doing:
Get busy doing the following:
1) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3 origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
2) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3b origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
3) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3a origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
4) Show us where E3a bearing groups and E3b bearing groups diverged from their E3-bearing ancestral populations, with multi-disciplinary evidence.
5)You say that "Sahel" is tantamount to "sub-Saharan" Africa, after time and again using it in a couple with "Sahara". Tell me,
a)Would you also therefore write it this way: what information excludes E3a and E3b split in "Sahara/sub-Saharan Africa"? If not, why not?
b)Why do you keep coupling "Sahara" with "Sahel", if you understand them to be distinct entities?...and if you understand them to be two distinct entities, why do you reference different two entities? Is it because you are caseless, and so, need to hide behind flimsy idea or ambiguity?
In otherwords, refute all the multi-disciplinary evidential points that I made a case out of, and explain the associated events thereof. Time to stop cheap talk via trolling, start listening and producing counter-evidence.
quote:rasol:
Anyway, you're cute
^You talk like a school girl. "Cute", Lol. You are not so "cute" when you talk like that. Lol.
quote:rasol.
when you're wrong, you know you're wrong, and angry about it.
Wrong about what, since you *failed* to point it out in my thesis...with that elusive counter-evidence I requested from you?! You must be on your way to a mental breakdown, because you are not making any sense.
quote:rasol:
So you provide entertainment, if nothing else.
Good, continue to be entertained, but please don't let it stop you from doing this:
Getting busy to....
1) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3 origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
2) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3b origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
3) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3a origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
4) Show us where E3a bearing groups and E3b bearing groups diverged from their E3-bearing ancestral populations, with multi-disciplinary evidence.
5)You say that "Sahel" is tantamount to "sub-Saharan" Africa, after time and again using it in a couple with "Sahara". Tell me,
a)Would you also therefore write it this way: what information excludes E3a and E3b split in "Sahara/sub-Saharan Africa"? If not, why not?
b)Why do you keep coupling "Sahara" with "Sahel", if you understand them to be distinct entities?...and if you understand them to be two distinct entities, why do you reference different two entities? Is it because you are caseless, and so, need to hide behind flimsy idea or ambiguity?
In otherwords, refute all the multi-disciplinary evidential points that I made a case out of, and explain the associated events thereof. Time to stop cheap talk via trolling, start listening and producing counter-evidence.
^I suspect these requests will only be greeted with what you do best: hide behind your intellectual deficits via non-issue and redundant smokescreens.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Habari: Why your reasons conflict with the following study:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.
^ lol, lol lol. Correct. Fact is, MS's claims makes no sense whatsoever.
He's very clever but he sometimes tricks himself into arguing just to be arguing.
In this way - he cuts himself to pieces whilst slashing wildly at oppositions real and imagined.
It's the difference between mere cleverness, and wisdom.
Meaning this will go on indefinitely, or until you get tired of him, or are simply bored by his antics.Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Why your reasons conflict with the following study:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.
You tell me; did you read the post I provided you with?
Please proceed to demonstrate to all viewers why you seem to think that my thesis conflicts with this post, using actual citations from my post, not some 'paraphrasing' stunt...since pharaphrasing is only done by people who understand something to begin with.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Which position?...we will never know; it is the "elusive" position that you keep supposedly arguing [actually ranting] against, and never providing your "elusive" counter-evidence to it.
quote:rasol: He's very smart
...and you are not, for taking me on without first having a clue about the specifics at hand and having prepared to produce counter-evidence of whatever it is you disagree with.
quote:rasol:
but he sometimes tricks himself into arguing just to be arguing.
I may well be arguing with you over nothing, because you have no case. You don't seem to know what "position of mine" I'm wrong about in my thesis, much less produce the corresponding counter-evidence.
quote:rasol:
In this way - he cuts himself to pieces whilst slashing wildly at oppositions real and imagined.
You obviously spend way too much time on your computer, because it clouds your judgment. You seem oblivous that it is only you who seems to make sense out of what you're rambling on about.
quote:rasol:
Meaning this will go on indefinitely, or until you get tired of him, or bored by him.
Redundant smokescreens from rasol, and hence, my word vindicated. So after all, you do realize that your smokescreens are meant to distract from your inability to make a case or sense, endlessly...hoping no one will catch onto to the fact that you're intellectually ill-equipped to understand the scientific specifics I provided you with in my thesis. You are a dunce, when it comes to genealogy and archaeology...pretending to understand them. You may dupe the gullible bunch here, but I am clearly not one of them, and something that even basicbows was able to demonstrate when you went at it with him...which is why I know you won't get busy doing this:
1) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3 origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
2) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3b origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
3) Produce multi-disciplinary evidence of E3a origins in the "Sahara/Sahel".
4) Show us where E3a bearing groups and E3b bearing groups diverged from their E3-bearing ancestral populations, with multi-disciplinary evidence.
5)You say that "Sahel" is tantamount to "sub-Saharan" Africa, after time and again using it in a couple with "Sahara". Tell me,
a)Would you also therefore write it this way: what information excludes E3a and E3b split in "Sahara/sub-Saharan Africa"? If not, why not?
b)Why do you keep coupling "Sahara" with "Sahel", if you understand them to be distinct entities?...and if you understand them to be two distinct entities, why do you reference two different entities to begin with? Is it because you are caseless, and so, need to hide behind flimsy idea or ambiguity?
In otherwords, refute all the multi-disciplinary evidential points that I made a case out of, and explain the associated events thereof. Time to stop cheap talk via trolling, start listening and producing counter-evidence.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info];
Why not West Africa since that's where it is more diverse and where we have a high frequency of underived E3a*?...
Correct. It's unlikely that E3a would have been born in Uganda/Kenya.
I think this is evidence that bug compound eyes, such as those you have above, does not guarantee being able to see things clearly.
If you did, you would have done reading by yourself, instead of relying on some intellectual lightweight who is not even capable of citing people; this is what was said:
- PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic-Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]
^ Where does it say in the above "Uganda/Kenya"?
And I know that E3a forebearers started out from east Africa south of the Saharan desert, because...
geological conditions tell me that population density in the Arid regions, brought about the Ogolian aridity, would have been quite sparsely populated - meaning most populations would have been concentrated south of the desert of that time:
- Much of North Africa and the Sahara are characterized by adverse weather conditions, with much of the region turning arid. The Sahara at this time, extends south beyond its current boundaries to a certain point, possibly a little beyond the Niger bend.
Reference to the geographical extent of this desertification is layout here:
Archaeology tells me that these E3a bearers didn't arise in situ in West Africa, because...
"After a favourable climatic period, characterised by relatively dense and diversified Palaeolithic occupations, the arid Ogolian begins locally around 23000 years BP and is represented at Ounjougou by a significant depositional and archaeological hiatus." - Aziz Ballouche [see: http://atlas-conferences.com/c/a/m/u/05.htm ]
...and I've already noted the possible extent of this desert of the Ogolian period, i.e. going beyond the Niger River bend, supported by the link provided. This idea extends to the following:
Arid conditions extend all the way to the "horn" coast of the African Horn region, possibly encouraging populations to reside more inwards - away from that horn-shaped coastal region; rather, likely towards the region straddling southern Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda or even further - region straddling Uganda, Kenya, and Tanzania.
But back to west Africa, archaeology tells me that a new group of people progressively moved into west Africa from an eastward direction, as the desert started to retract therein:
From 30,600 to 10,000 BC: "A cultural flow, from the southeast of Subsaharan Africa and to the Sahara, could explain the diffusion of the microlithic industries all the way through West Africa. We observe them initially in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30.600-29.000 BC), then at the Ivory Coast in Bingerville (14.100-13.400 BC), in Nigeria in Iwo Eleru (11.460-11.050 BC), and finally in Ounjougou (phase 1, 10th millennium BC)." - Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa [see: [ http://anthro.unige.ch/lap/ounjougou/earlyneo.html ]]
^This east-to-west movement shows that a new group of people moved into west Africa, because the "microlithic traditions" that appear at Shum Laka had been in existence for as long as ~ 30 ky ago, and yet didn't show up in west Africa proper until ~ 14 ky ago, a late date which works well within the confines of the TMRCA age of E3a. So the people originally responsible for that "microlithic tradition" at Shum Laka were not the people who likely brought that tradition to west Africa, but by a new group of people who passed through Shum Laka. These new group of people first appeared in vegetation holdout regions beyond the Niger bend, and gradually moved northward, eventually reaching to regions as far as that of Ounjougou, as evidenced by the above carbon-dated archaeological finds. Remember, that the Ounjougou region was abandoned in the intense desertification period....
"After a favourable climatic period, characterised by relatively dense and diversified Palaeolithic occupations, the arid Ogolian begins locally around 23000 years BP and is represented at Ounjougou by a significant depositional and archaeological hiatus." - Aziz Ballouche [see: http://atlas-conferences.com/c/a/m/u/05.htm ]
...but began to be repopulated with the relaxation of the aridity, as evidenced by:
Consequently, it has to be seen in the context of heavy rainfalls and a resettlement of the vegetation cover, during the 10th millennium BC, that a **new population** arrives on the Plateau of Bandiagara." - Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa [see: [ http://anthro.unige.ch/lap/ounjougou/earlyneo.html ]]
...which interestingly coincides with appearance of "microlithic traditions" from the Shum Laka region:
"A cultural flow, from the southeast of Subsaharan Africa and to the Sahara, could explain the diffusion of the microlithic industries all the way through West Africa. We observe them initially in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30.600-29.000 BC), then at the Ivory Coast in Bingerville (14.100-13.400 BC), in Nigeria in Iwo Eleru (11.460-11.050 BC), and finally in Ounjougou (phase 1, 10th millennium BC)." - Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa [see: [ http://anthro.unige.ch/lap/ounjougou/earlyneo.html ]]
Details of the "microlithic traditions" had been provided in my initial post.
...now this east-to-west movement of new groups is lent support by genetics, because:
The earliest E3a bearing groups, carrying mainly M2, P1 and M180 mutations devoid of the M191 mutation, appear to have moved to the westernmost region of Africa...from an eastern origin:
Although haplotypes 22, 24, and 41 were probably all involved in the Bantu expansion, the processes that determined the current distribution of these haplotypes in the Sudanese belt (a region south of the Sahara extending from western to central Africa) seem to have been more complex and perhaps involved a separate expansion. In particular, haplotype 24 and its derivative, haplotype 22, harbor opposite clinal distributions in the region, a finding that is at odds with the hypothesis of a parallel dispersion of these two lineages in the area.
Haplotype 22 has a frequency of 23% in Cameroon (where it represents 42% of haplotypes carrying the DYS271 mutation), 13% in Burkina Faso (16% of haplotypes carrying the DYS271 mutation) and only 1% in Senegal (Semino et al. 2002), whereas haplotype 24 reaches its highest frequency (81%) in Senegal (Semino et al. 2002).
A possible explanation might be that haplotype 24 chromosomes were already present across the Sudanese belt when the M191 mutation, which defines haplotype 22, arose in central western Africa. Only then would a later demic expansion have brought haplotype 22 chromosomes from central western to western Africa, giving rise to the opposite clinal distributions of haplotypes 22 and 24. - Cruciani et al. 2002
^...these early groups [as the Senegalese sample in particular seems to indicate] also happen to have relatively wider distribution of E3-P2 than other Niger-Congo speaking groups elsewhere, a lineage which has by far the highest frequencies and distribution in Ethiopia [which is in East Africa fyi] - its likely point of origin, but that in of itself is not enough; the Senegalese sample shows considerably more E-M35* than that from other Niger-Congo speaking groups of sub-Saharan West Africa. It is also the sub-Saharan predominantly Niger-Congo speaking group that shares the rare microsatellite motif with Ethiopians on the E-M78 bearing chromosome:
It is interesting that both E-P2* and E-M35* and their derivatives, E-M78 and E-M123, exhibit in Ethiopians the 12-repeat allele at the DYS392 microsatellite locus, an allele scarcely seen (Y-Chromosome STR Database), especially in other haplogroups and other populations (A.S.S.-B., unpublished data). In addition, the Ethiopian DYS392-12 allele is usually associated with the unusually short DYS19-11 allele, which is typical of this area. These findings are not easily explained. One possible scenario is that an ancient differentiation of the E-P2 haplogroup occurred in loco (East Africa). However, this also implies a low mutability of the associated microsatellite motif (DYS392-12/DYS19-11). Alternatively, the microsatellite motif may be due to homoplasy.
The first scenario is more likely, since this unique microsatellite haplotype occurs in E-P2*, E-M35*, and E-M78 but is almost absent in all other haplogroups and populations. In addition, the high stability of the DYS392 locus (Brinkmann et al. 1998; Nebel et al. 2001) and of the shorter alleles of DYS19 (Carvalho-Silva et al. 1999) has been reported elsewhere. Moreover, the observation that the derivative E-M78 displays the DYS392-12/DYS19-11 haplotype suggests that it also arose in East Africa. This is illustrated by the microsatellite network (fig. 3, shaded area), which reveals that the Ethiopian branch harboring DYS392-12 is not shared with either Near Eastern or European populations. - Semino et al.
The Ethiopian sample may not share the said allele with those populations mentioned, including the northwest African samples as far as I can tell, but it does share the said allele with the Senegalese sample, which would suggest that the Senegalese M78 derivative didn’t come from interaction with its northwest African neighbors; rather, they may well be relics of ancient migrations from east to west.
^Therefore, M78 chromosome bearing this rather rare microsatellite haplotype in a predominantly E3a carrying population, was likely picked up directly from sub-Saharan East Africa. This E3a carrying population turns out to be the Senegalese group, and it supports the idea of the original E3a bearers having lived in proximity to the Ethiopian populations, and therefore, followed by an east-to-west migration. The geological, archaeological and genealogical evidence put together, support the idea that E3a bearers would have started in East Africa, progressively [serial nature of carbon dating of microlithic evidence shows this] moved along the vegetation zones below the Saharan desert westward, arriving at Shum Laka, where they'd pick up microlithic traditions, and then headed to west Africa proper, initially inhabiting the vegetation holdout regions below the then Saharan desert boundaries therein, i.e. little beyond the Nile River bend, and thereafter, as the aridity situation began to relax, moved northward across regions in West Africa, as the reoccupation of Ounjougou - in association with said microlithic traditions - attest to.
E3:
Bantu (South Africa) - E3* = 1.9%, Senegalese - E3* = 2.9%, Ethiopian (Amhara) - E3* = 10.4%, Ethiopian (Oromo) - E3* = 12.8% in the ascending order.
The Senegalese sample also bears the E-M.35* lineages:
Yet with all this talk of in situ appearance of E3a in west Africa, I see no multidisciplinary evidence from the "loud mouth" advocates...nor those who flip flop between that idea to that of "E3a supposedly appearing in the 'Sahara/Sahel'".
This is no mere long-winded post; it is an analytical post packed with multidisciplinary evidence, none of which has been presented by the above mentioned advocates. That I have to literally reiterate what had already been posted, shows that I'm really dealing with intellectual simpletons, when it comes to basic science.
quote: rasol:
The lineage in East Africa south of the Sahara/Sahel [corridor] is almost *entirely* associated with the Bantu expansion.
This shows how much unread you are in genetics, to draw simplistic scenarios of human movement, and also assuming static human populations, as your recent entertainment of in situ West African E3a origin attests to. That Semino et al. extract about the rare microsatellite haplotype shared between the Ethiopian and Senegalese samples makes this clear.
quote:rasol:
It isn't found in Ethiopia for example where there are also no Bantu.
As a matter of fact, it has been detected in Ethiopia, albeit in very low frequency. Another fact you've gotten wrong, *amongst the many* others.
quote:rasol:
It would be extremely difficut to explain Underived E3a and E3's presense in Senegal but not Ethiopia if E3a lineage had originated in Uganda and Kenya which border Ethiopia. (??)
I guarantee you that, if you learn to read *precisely* what people say, you'll avoid making an ass out of yourself. Tell me where it is said that E3a *simply* originated "Uganda and Kenya"? Is it one and same with the "region straddling Sudanese-Central African Republic-Ugandan-Kenyan regions" - are you capable of reading a map, to the know the implication of such?
Your question marks show that you are one confused sick puppy, who could avoid the self-induced confusion, simply by reading.
quote:Mystery: PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a* [as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period.
How do we reconcile the above with the following?
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.
Let's solve that mystery...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:How do we reconcile the above with the following?
^ He can't. The idea of E3a originating in East Africa has no merit.
He knows this. But he's angry and *can't stop himself* from arguing his nonsensical position.
His next several paragraphs of noise [he gets long winded when obviously wrong] will provide for additional entertainment. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I'm not sure that other posters realize that...it seems that his strategy is trying to inundate the reader with information...but when you analyze carefully his posts...it's obvious that something is wrong...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.
Let's solve that mystery...
Haba, in order to understand whether a mystery is already solved, you have to have a basic understanding of the subject at hand...you don't seem to have that.
Tell me how "frequency and diversity" of E3a in West Africa is proof that the lineage arose there in situ, when and where specifically therein, and buttressed by what extra-genetic evidences. I've presented my case with multidisciplinary evidence that still needs to be addressed and refuted, and so, the ball is really in your court.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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It is not the question of reconciling; it is the question of weight of evidence. If you weren't an idiot, I wouldn't have to tell you this.
You tell me, as I have just asked above, how "frequency and diversity" of E3a in west Africa is proof that it had to have arose in situ, where specifically and when, according to what set of genealogical and extra-genealogical evidence? This is a basic task confronting two intellectual simpletons like yourself and haba.
quote:rasol:
The idea of E3a originating in East Africa has no merit.
He knows this.
I know this, because you've examined *what* specifically that I have said, and produced counter-evidence thereof specifically with...?
quote:rasol:
But he's angry and *can't stop himself* from arguing his nonsensical position.
...which is why you are here doing guessing games of what someone might be feeling behind your computer in some dark basement 24x7, due to some superpowers you have, rather than pointing out what "specifics" are wrong, and producing the corresponding counter-evidence to them?
quote:rasol:
His next several paragraphs of noise [he gets long winded when obviously wrong] will provide for additional entertainment.
"Long-winded" posts, of which you have no idea what is wrong about it, or have a solution via counter-evidence? Come again, what primary school did you go to?
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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I'm not sure that other posters realize that...it seems that his strategy is trying to inundate the reader with information...but when you analyze carefully his posts...it's obvious that something is wrong...
Yet, despite this "obviousness", you cannot identify what that "somthing" is, and produce counter-evidence?
You should fit within the stormfront community par excellence, trust me on that; they like to talk about how things are wrong, but not what itself is wrong, and how they intend to counter it thereof.
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
Of course, but don't under estimate ES posters though, many of us, the long timers, have seen this before [MS arguing just to be arguing].
So I take it by this, you are essentially saying, that you really are in the dark about what you think is wrong, and what you intend to produce as counter evidence.
quote:rasol:
You've done a good job of not letting him drag you down into and insult match, btw.
...and don't forget to mention, that he's equally done a good job of not letting me get answers to what "specifics" of mine he thinks is wrong, in a manner not unlike yourself, what he understands, and what counter-evidence he has at his disposal. Who knows, if he gets any better at doing this, you might cook him some nice hot super when he gets home. Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote: rasol: Habari, you've done a good job of not letting him drag you down into and insult match, btw.
quote:MS: ...and don't forget to mention, that he's equally done a good job of not letting me get answers.
^ rotfl. Your frustration is funny. No, it's not Habari's fault you don't *have* answers and so can't *get* any.
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky.
^ By definition if you:
a) don't have answers, and b) refuse to understand answers,
...then it's your fault and no one can help you.
But, continue your tantrum .....and blame whomever you must to salvage your fragile ego. Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: Habari, you've done a good job of not letting him drag you down into and insult match, btw.
quote:MS: ...and don't forget to mention, that he's equally done a good job of not letting me get answers.
^ rotfl. Your frustration is funny.
...and your hallucinations about them is even funnier, which means you can now crack your pants open laughing, and not just 'rotf'
quote:rasol:
No, it's not Habari's fault you don't *have* answers and so can't *get* any.
You've got it twisted, about you and your marital partner and intellectual simpleton colleague not being at fault; how am I supposed to have "answers" for something that even you guys admit you cannot identify, let alone produce the warranted counter evidence?
quote:rasol:
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky.
^ By definition if you:
a) don't have answers, and b) refuse to understand answers,
...then it's your fault and no one can help you.
rasol, I am not sure if you were ever taught the fact in primary school, but whenever asked to *elaborate* - with requested evidence - on what you understand by a post in question, it is common sense that the *ensuing answer* is never simply repeating the post...without the requested "answers". Safe then, to say that you lack basic common sense, hmmm?
quote:rasol:
But, continue your tantrum .....and blame whomever you must to salvage your fragile ego.
You're funny, especially when it is obvious that it is you, who seems to be pressured to use smilies and bug-eyed & buck-tooth grinning graemlins, as trolls normally do when defeated, to give the impression that you are not grappling with emotional disorder. Is it that bad, that you feel the need to "convince" readers otherwise via these graemlins?
In any case, if consistently telling us that "something" is supposedly wrong, but you are not mindful of what that something is and its counter evidence, what more does anyone need to keep their ego, if not get an ego boost? Lol.
Keep trying...to figure out what is "wrong", and then we can start the *real* talk.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky.
^ By definition if you:
a) don't have answers, and b) refuse to understand answers,
...then it's your fault and no one can help you.
rasol, I am not sure if you were ever taught the fact in primary school, but whenever asked to *elaborate* - with requested evidence - on what you understand by a post in question, it is common sense that the *ensuing answer* is never simply repeating the post...without the requested "answers". Safe then, to say that you lack basic common sense, hmmm?
...wouldn't be charitable of me, if I didn't remind you of what that is [the guy is "slow"]:
"You tell me, as I have just asked above, how "frequency and diversity" of E3a in west Africa is proof that it had to have arose in situ, where specifically and when, according to what set of genealogical and extra-genealogical evidence? This is a basic task confronting two intellectual simpletons like yourself and haba."
Using your logic [a strange one at that], the obvious more diverse and frequent E-M81 of coastal northwestern Berbers would suggest in situ origin of that marker...which clearly, no sane person reckons to be the case, without being mindful of the sort of *details* being requested above.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Habari: [he gets long winded when obviously wrong]
I'm not sure that other posters realize that...it seems that his strategy is trying to inundate the reader with information...but when you analyze carefully his posts...it's obvious that something is wrong...
Nope! We all realize this. Posts: 26326 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:I'm not sure that other posters realize that...it seems that his strategy is trying to inundate the reader with information...but when you analyze carefully his posts...it's obvious that something is wrong...
Nope! We all realize this.
You realize what this "something" which is "wrong" is?...then lay it out [with its *counter evidence*], because neither rasol or habari has any idea what that something is.
Ps - In other words, show us you are different from your usual self, i.e. not playing the cheerleading girlfriend to someone(s)...by actually showing us *specifics* you intend to address, explain what the issue is, and how you intend to produce its counter scientific evidence.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Mystery, I read some of your posts in other threads after doing some research. You actually contribute positively in a rigorous scientific manner, but here your position is undefendable to the point you are either lying knowingly or your obsession with winning a debate leads you to become scientifically blind(sorry to use that qualification but I have to resort to that).
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mystery, I read some of your posts in other threads after doing some research. You actually contribute positively in a rigorous scientific manner, but here your position is undefendable to the point you are either lying knowingly or your obsession with winning a debate leads you to become scientifically blind(sorry to use that qualification but I have to resort to that).
This is just hot air distraction; this is what concerns me:
1) "You tell me, as I have just asked above, how "frequency and diversity" of E3a in west Africa is proof that it had to have arose in situ, where specifically and when, according to what set of genealogical and extra-genealogical evidence? This is a basic task confronting two intellectual simpletons like yourself and haba."
Ps - 2) Identify the *specifics* of "position is undefendable", and produce its *counter evidence*.
...anything short of you addressing this, is unacceptable.
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
You keep changing the rules of the game:your own rules, you asked me to quote you, I did. Please follow the rules you set up by addressing the following...please?
quote:Mystery: PN2 clade (E3) bearers in the vicinity of the Sudanese-Central African Republic -Ugandan-Kenyan region [get a map aid, if necessary] give rise to E3a ~ between 21 and 18 ky ago [pending additional or new info]; E3b-M35* would have likely arose relatively earlier than E3a* [as evidenced by its near absence in some the populations that carry this], sometime prior to the Ogolian and the LGM period.
How do we reconcile the above with the following?
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective Alexandra Rosa,corresponding author1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1
The analysis of our data provides further evidence for the homogeneity of the Y chromosome gene pool of sub-Saharan West Africans, due to the high frequency of haplogroup E3a-M2. Its frequency and diversity in West Africa are among the highest found, suggesting an early local origin and expansion in the last 20–30 ky. Hypothesizing on the existence of an important local agricultural centre, this could have supported a demographic expansion, on an E3a-M2 background, that almost erased the pre-existing Y chromosome diversity. Its pattern of diversity within Mandenka and Balanta hints at a more marked populational growth, these people possibly related to the local diffusion of agricultural expertise.
Let's solve that mystery..
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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You keep changing the rules of the game:your own rules, you asked me to quote you, I did. Please follow the rules you set up by addressing the following...please?
Yes, I asked to quote me and not attempt to paraphrase me, and you failed at that.
And I also asked you to come up with answers for these for some time now:
1) "You tell me, as I have just asked above, how "frequency and diversity" of E3a in west Africa is proof that it had to have arose in situ, where specifically and when, according to what set of genealogical and extra-genealogical evidence? This is a basic task confronting two intellectual simpletons like yourself and haba."
Ps - 2) Identify the *specifics* of "position is undefendable", and produce its *counter evidence*.
...and you've failed at that too.
When you've managed to any of this, we can then come to the matter of: "follow the rules you set up".
Posts: 233 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Answer my question first...I played by your rules: I quoted you word by word...now answer...or as Rasol said...you can't...then say it...you won't die...
quote:Yes, I asked to quote me and not attempt to paraphrase me
Do you realize that this forum is public anyone can verify that I quoted you word by word...or your forgot about what you wrote...or worse...you are knowingly lying...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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Answer my question first...I played by your rules:
If you played by my rules, you'd have come up with answers for these already:
1) "You tell me, as I have just asked above, how "frequency and diversity" of E3a in west Africa is proof that it had to have arose in situ, where specifically and when, according to what set of genealogical and extra-genealogical evidence? This is a basic task confronting two intellectual simpletons like yourself and haba."
Ps - 2) Identify the *specifics* of "position is undefendable", and produce its *counter evidence*.
quote:haba:
I quoted you word by word
Lie.
quote:haba:
...now answer...or as Rasol said...you can't...then say it...you won't die...
posted
You know the reason why I'm still playing that crazy game in this thread is just because a poster thought that you were actually providing scientific value to this thread...an no I won't allow the tyranny of the unscientific mind...never...actually you are even a danger scientifically speaking...
Posts: 461 | From: Kilimanjaro | Registered: Jan 2008
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