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Author Topic: Africans may be more genetically fit
mentu
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The major proportion of the intercontinental FST (FST is the proportion of the total genetic variance contained in a subpopulation) value is contributed by the African populations. The between-population variance for all E. Asian, Indian, and European populations is relatively low and not significantly different from the between-population variance within Africa alone – that is, Africa alone has about as much genetic variation as the rest of the world combined.
Africans May be More Genetically Fit, According to Studies
By Bernie Douglas (January 7, 2008)

Jorde et al. in a study published in the American journal of Human Genetics (2000) compared worldwide genetic variation among 255 individuals using autosomal, mitochondrial, and Y-chromosome polymorphisms. Their finding was gene-diversity results showed higher levels of diversity in African populations than in non-African populations. Similar findings have been reached in numerous studies dating back more than a decade (Vigilant et al. 1991; Nei et al. 1993; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1991; Deka et al. 1995b; Jorde et al. 1997), a long time in the field of population genetics. Antonio Salas et al. (2002) reported that Africa presents the most complex genetic picture of any continent with time and depth for mitochondrial DNA.

It has also been discovered that Africans have the largest total number of alleles, as well as the largest number of unique alleles – alleles are genes inherited from each parent that code for things such as eye color, body type (etc.) -- for most systems; a discovery that could possibly place Africans as being the most genetically fit people on Earth, as lower genetic variation is said to lower genetic fitness (Lacy 1987). Gst (Genetic diversity) values are 11%–18% for the autosomal systems and are two to three times higher for the mtDNA sequence and Y-chromosome RSPs. Africa has higher GST values than does either Europe or Asia for all systems except the Y-chromosome STRs (Short tandem repeats). Alu diversity (DNA sequences present in the human genome) is highest in Africans (0.349) and lowest in Europeans (0.297) (Watkins et al, 2003). All systems except the Y-chromosome STRs show less variation between populations within continents than between continents. These results are reassuring and offer broad support for an African origin of modern human populations.

A population with many different alleles at a locus may be said to have a lot of genetic variation at that locus. Genetic variation is essential for natural selection to operate since natural selection can only increase or decrease frequency of alleles already in the population. In a very real sense, genetic variation is the raw material for evolution (Reed amd Frankham, 2003). Without genetic variation, a population cannot evolve in response to changing environmental variables and, as a result, may face an increased risk of extinction.

The major proportion of the intercontinental FST (FST is the proportion of the total genetic variance contained in a subpopulation) value is contributed by the African populations. The between-population variance for all E. Asian, Indian, and European populations is relatively low and not significantly different from the between-population variance within Africa alone – that is, Africa alone has about as much genetic variation as the rest of the world combined. The observed patterns of between-population differentiation are consistent with a bottleneck or a successive series of bottleneck events that have reduced genetic diversity among non-African populations and may have coincided with emigration from Africa (Harpending and Rogers 2000; Jorde et al. 2000; Reich et al. 2001).

Europe may have less genetic diversity than other continents due in part to the wide spread war and disease that have ravaged the continent over the last a millennia. In 1347, for example, Black Death was rapidly carried throughout Europe from the Mediterranean Basin, and eventually, areas of European settlement as isolated as Viking settlements in Greenland were ravaged by plague. By the time these plagues had run their course in 1351, between 25 and 50% of the population of Europe was dead (Gottfried, 1983). Lower genetic variation depresses individual fitness, resistance to disease and parasites, and flexibility in coping with environmental challenges. Lower variation also decreases mean fitness of populations, resilience, and long-term adaptability (Lacy, 1987).

References
Antonio Salas, Martin Richards, Toma´s De la Fe, Marı´a-Victoria Lareu, Beatriz Sobrino, Paula Sa´nchez-Diz,1 Vincent Macaulay, and A´ ngel Carracedo (2002). The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape. American. Journal of. Human. Genetics. 71:1082–1111, 2002.

Cavalli-Sforza LL, Bowcock AM, Kidd JR, Mountain JL, Hebert JM, Carotenuto L, Kidd KK, (1991) Drift, admixture, and selection in human evolution: a study with DNA polymorphisms. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 88:839–843.

Deka R, Jin L, Shriver MD, Yu LM, DeCroo S, Hundrieser J, Bunker CH, et al (1995a) Population genetics of dinucleotide (dC-dA)n.(dG-dT)n polymorphisms in world populations. Am J Hum Genet 56:461–474.

Harpending, H. and Rogers, A. 2000. Genetic perspectives on human origins and differentiation. Annu. Rev. Genomics Hum. Genet. 1: 361–385.

Jorde LB, Rogers AR, Bamshad M, Watkins WS, Krakowiak P, Sung S, Kere J, et al (1997) Microsatellite diversity and the demographic history of modern humans. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 94:3100–3103.

Jorde, L.B., Watkins, W.S., Bamshad, M.J., Dixon, M.E., Ricker, C.E., Seielstad, M.T., and Batzer, M.A. (2000). The distribution of human genetic diversity: Acomparison of mitochondrial, autosomal, and Y-chromosome data. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 66: 979–988.

Lacy R.C. (1987). Loss of Genetic Diversity from Managed Populations: Interacting Effects of Drift, Mutation, Immigration, Selection, and Population Subdivision Conservation Biology 1 (2), 143–158.

Nei M, Livshits G, Ota T (1993) Genetic variation and evolution of human populations. In: Sing CF, Hanis CL (eds) Genetics of cellular, individual, family, and population variability. Oxford University Press, New York, pp 239–252.

Reed D.H.; Frankham R. (2003). Correlation between Fitness and Genetic Diversity. Conservation Biology, Volume 17, Number 1, February 2003, pp. 230-237(8).

Reich, D.E., Cargill, M., Bolk, S., Ireland, J., Sabeti, P.C., Richter, D.J., Lavery, T., Kouyoumjian, R., Farhadian, S.F., Ward, R., et al. (2001). Linkage disequilibrium in the human genome. Nature 411: 199–204.

Vigilant L, Stoneking M, Harpending H, Hawkes K, Wilson AC (1991) African populations and the evolution of human mitochondrial DNA. Science 253:1503–1507.

Watkins, W.S, Pradipta K. Das, Mark A. Batzer and Lynn B. JordeE. Brassington, Marion L. Carroll, Son V. Nguyen, Jerilyn A. Walker, B.V. Ravi Prasad, P. Govinda Reddy, Alan R. Rogers, Christopher T. Ostler, Steve Wooding, Michael J. Bamshad, Anna-Marie (2003). Genetic Variation Among World Populations: Inferences From 100 Alu Insertion Polymorphisms. Genome Res. 2003 13: 1607-1618.

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Djehuti
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^ This news is nothing new. Since the human species originated in Africa, it is expected for those human populations in Africa to have the greatest genetic diversity which genetic studies going years back has proven. With greater genetic diversity comes greater genetic fitness, since genetically diverse populations have greater chances at surviving conditions such as disease than those that are less diverse. For example if everyone in a certain population is genetically similar or identical in the case of clones, then everyone has the same biological weaknesses and are prone to the same diease or other force that deters survival.
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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ This news is nothing new. Since the human species originated in Africa, it is expected for those human populations in Africa to have the greatest genetic diversity which genetic studies going years back has proven. With greater genetic diversity comes greater genetic fitness, since genetically diverse populations have greater chances at surviving conditions such as disease than those that are less diverse. For example if everyone in a certain population is genetically similar or identical in the case of clones, then everyone has the same biological weaknesses and are prone to the same diease or other force that deters survival.

Evergreen Writes:

In very simple terms Elijah Muhammed schooled us on this years ago.

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AFRICA I
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Nothing new in this thread...
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Mmmkay
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quote:
In very simple terms Elijah Muhammed schooled us on this years ago.
Um.....you mean NOI elijah muhammed? LOL that brings me back to "your black muslim bakery" in oakland.

In any case the "simplest terms" is probably an understatement. They have some odd beliefs.

What exactly does the post starter mean by "genetic fitness" olympic gold medal champions? Is this the return of "natural black athleticism"?

Just want to clear that up.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
quote:
In very simple terms Elijah Muhammed schooled us on this years ago.
Um.....you mean NOI elijah muhammed? LOL that brings me back to "your black muslim bakery" in oakland.

In any case the "simplest terms" is probably an understatement. They have some odd beliefs.

Evergreen Writes:

A few of Elijah Muhameds beliefs were 1. Black people were the first people 2. Whites had weaker blood and bones than Blacks (genetic fitness and bone mineral density) 3. Blacks were the fathers and mothers of western civilization 4. Western civilization was grafted (derived) from Black civilization.

Which of these "odd" beliefs do you challenge?

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scv
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quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
quote:
In very simple terms Elijah Muhammed schooled us on this years ago.
Um.....you mean NOI elijah muhammed? LOL that brings me back to "your black muslim bakery" in oakland.

In any case the "simplest terms" is probably an understatement. They have some odd beliefs.

Evergreen Writes:

A few of Elijah Muhameds beliefs were 1. Black people were the first people 2. Whites had weaker blood and bones than Blacks (genetic fitness and bone mineral density) 3. Blacks were the fathers and mothers of western civilization 4. Western civilization was grafted (derived) from Black civilization.

Which of these "odd" beliefs do you challenge?

I only challenge 3, whites doesn't have weaker bone(that depends on the good health and care of the person), Amerindians were the fathers of western civilization, and West civilization was grafted from amerindians also.
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Djehuti
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^ Genetic fitness does not mean superior physiques but means they are better able to survive or cope with biological challenges such as in the case of disease.

I have already explained in my first post here what that means so there should be no confusion.

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Mmmkay
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quote:
Amerindians were the fathers of western civilization
The fact of the matter is, "western civilization" and amerindians had no prior contact to 500 years ago and "western civilization" predates the last 500 years so I fail to see the connection.


quote:
A few of Elijah Muhameds beliefs were 1. Black people were the first people 2. Whites had weaker blood and bones than Blacks (genetic fitness and bone mineral density) 3. Blacks were the fathers and mothers of western civilization 4. Western civilization was grafted (derived) from Black civilization.
Nice cherry-picking. You fail to mention they also believe that white people are "devils" and that they were "created in a lab" by a mad black scientist. Odd indeed.

To answer your question, I don't really take issue with the facts presented in and of themselves, but the vehicle (NOI) in which they are presented. By an odd fringe group who probably didn't know either way they were making scientifically correct assertions.

So what exactly does "genetic fitness" mean? I mean as implied by this post?

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by prmiddleeastern:
[QUOTE]I only challenge 3, whites doesn't have weaker bone(that depends on the good health and care of the person), Amerindians were the fathers of western civilization, and West civilization was grafted from amerindians also.

Evergreen Writes:

1. It is a well known scientific fact that Blacks on average have greater BMD (Bone Mineral Density) than Whites. You are correct in that health and care also impact the inate physiological differences.

2. Native-Americans have had a pronounced impact on Western Civilization via the Western cultures of the Americas. However, the magnitude of impact does not equate with the pronouced influence of African civilization on Europe and Eurasia.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
[QUOTE]You fail to mention they also believe that white people are "devils" and that they were "created in a lab" by a mad black scientist. Odd indeed.

Evergreen Writes:

I am discussing Elijah Muhammed, not the NOI. The teachings of Elijah Muhammed are no more odd than many religions Judeo-Christian beliefs. In fact, in many cases the core NOI beliefs, as taught by Elijah Muhammed have greater scientific validity when one considers the "language" of Elijah Muhamed and the metaphorical culture.

Have you read someof the teachings of Elijah Muhamed and have they indicated that the "White Man" was created in a lab by a mad scientist? If so, what is your source? What is the context of these teachings? Are they metaphorical or literal teachings? Why or why not?

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Mmmkay
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quote:
Have you read someof the teachings of Elijah Muhamed and have they indicated that the "White Man" was created in a lab by a mad scientist?
where?

quote:
A renegade black scientist named Yakub created the white race 6,000 years ago, and ever since then, the whites have ruled the other colors.
http://home.att.net/~phosphor/week1a/message.html

quote:
I am discussing Elijah Muhammed, not the NOI
They are basically one and the same. Indeed it would be hard to imagine the NOI today without his influence.

quote:
In fact, in many cases the core NOI beliefs, as taught by Elijah Muhammed have greater scientific validity when one considers the "language" of Elijah Muhamed and the metaphorical culture.
Being as it was probably reached by rather coincidental(unscientific) means I can hardly see your point.
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Djehuti
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Let's please leave the Nation of Islam and other socio-political issues out of this. We are dealing with science here. And scientifically by definition, genetic fitness means being able to survive long enough to produce offspring. Since populations of Africa are the most genetically diverse they have a better chances of doing this than other populations who are less genetically diverse.
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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
quote:
In very simple terms Elijah Muhammed schooled us on this years ago.
Um.....you mean NOI elijah muhammed? LOL that brings me back to "your black muslim bakery" in oakland.

[Smile] Those people are loons. I grew up several blocks from over there.
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yazid904
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Even though the statement has some relevancy in health and vigour of a continent, the reality is that daily life is dangerous and mortality is high in children! Tribal conflict is serious, public health intititives are few and far between and that makes dire consequences for the common people.
As a rule, it can be stated that African heads of state would rather take $USD 1 million or EU funds to build themselves large houses/castles than put into infrastructure to better invest into the nations's health.
Only if you better the equivalent public health system, can you truly see the investment in the genetically fit population at large. That is one way to secure that end!

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Djehuti
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^ Social problems aside, again genetic fitness means being able to survive long enough to produce offspring.

The reason why Africans are considered most fit is because they are genetically the most diverse. A case in point, it was recently discovered that some groups in Africa have natural immunity to HIV than others. Again, this is a result of the incredible genetic diversity among Africans. Having greater diversity means having a better chance at resisting biological hazardous events like disease.

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Grumman
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Djehuti says:
''And scientifically by definition, genetic fitness means being able to survive long enough to produce offspring.''

Aren't most systems on this planet built this way.

''Since populations of Africa are the most genetically diverse they have a better chances of doing this than other populations who are less genetically diverse.''

What does that mean? Which other populations on this planet are less genetically diverse such that they won't be able to survive and compete in their environment? How does one explain the Bubonic Plague that killed millions of Europeans, or so I've read. Were they less genetically diverse? If they were less then why are they still here? Or was it the killer plague ran its course before the Europeans needed some of that diversity help you're talking about.

Evergreen wrote, in a response to Mmmkay:

''Have you read some of the teachings of Elijah Muhamed and have they indicated that the "White Man" was created in a lab by a mad scientist? If so, what is your source? What is the context of these teachings? Are they metaphorical or literal teachings? Why or why not?''

I don' tknow who created whom, but I do know Farrakhan actually said, on television, presumably at a mosque meeting, the white man is a genetic mistake; this was on the local news channel less than a year ago. And it's not hard for me to say Louis meant it the way he said it, especially when I saw and heard him, again, on television, call white people crackers with much emphasis on cracker. Well that ain't my issue at all. We all have names for ethnic groups I supppose so I can't get uptight about that.

Which brings me back to my ''on who created whom'' and the ''genetic mistake''. If the white guys morphed from blacks via the sunlight and fish and latitude route, then ain't this some of that pot calling the kettle black stuff?

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
quote:
Have you read someof the teachings of Elijah Muhamed and have they indicated that the "White Man" was created in a lab by a mad scientist?
where?
Evergreen Writes:

Where, what? This is an incomplete sentence.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
[QUOTE]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A renegade black scientist named Yakub created the white race 6,000 years ago, and ever since then, the whites have ruled the other colors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://home.att.net/~phosphor/week1a/message.html


Evergreen Writes:

This is not a direct quote of Elijah Muhammed. This is a book summary posted on some website dedicated to projecting negative stereotypes about Hip-Culture. Use primary sources.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
[QUOTE]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am discussing Elijah Muhammed, not the NOI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are basically one and the same. Indeed it would be hard to imagine the NOI today without his influence.

Evergreen Writes:

Not at all. Nor would I consider Jesus the same as modern right-wing Baptists. Certainly Elijah Muhammed influenced the NOI today. This tells us little however.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
[QUOTE] In fact, in many cases the core NOI beliefs, as taught by Elijah Muhammed have greater scientific validity when one considers the "language" of Elijah Muhamed and the metaphorical culture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being as it was probably reached by rather coincidental(unscientific) means I can hardly see your point.

Evergreen Writes:

What is the basis for this claim? The theology as espoused by Elijah Muhammed seems to be based upon a well established logical tradition dating back to the Egyptian Dusé Mohamed Ali and perhaps much earlier.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumman f6f:
I don' tknow who created whom, but I do know Farrakhan actually said...

Evergreen Writes:

Farrakhan and Elijah Muhammed are two different people.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mmmkay:
[qb] [QUOTE] In fact, in many cases the core NOI beliefs, as taught by Elijah Muhammed have greater scientific validity when one considers the "language" of Elijah Muhamed and the metaphorical culture.

Evergreen Writes:

Of interest are the numerous similarities between the theology espoused by Elijah Muhammed and the cosmology of Ancient Egypt, including a cult of Blackness.

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Grumman
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Evergreen said:
''Farrakhan and Elijah Muhammed are two different people.''

Yes, I agree, and I do admit I got carried away but Louis voiced it (genetic mistake) because of his outspoken attitude. So Elijah has been out of the picture for quite awhile now and Louis Farrakhan represents the Nation of Islam today. So other than specific Muhammad context, general context says Farrakhan/ NOI presentday.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
[QUOTE]

Evergreen Writes:

In very simple terms Elijah Muhammed schooled us on this years ago.

Evergreen Writes:

Many of Elijah Muhammeds "simple" observations are based upon the casual observation of the social and psychological norms of Anglo-Americans produced by African-Americans in the deep south. Much of this primary research calls for more sophisticated and up-to-date analysis.

Evergreen Posts:

Australasian Radiology (1999) 43, 321–324

Cerebral asymmetry in a selected Chinese population

"The distribution of cerebral asymmetry of Chinese in Shanghai showed similarity to
North American Whites rather than North American Blacks, but the average right-left differences were smaller than those of Whites."

"North Americans of European origin showed significantly more asymmetry in both the occipital and the frontal lobes than did North Americans of African origin."

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Mmmkay
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quote:
This is not a direct quote of Elijah Muhammed. This is a book summary posted on some website dedicated to projecting negative stereotypes about Hip-Culture. Use primary sources.
The "source" you are attacking is actually a summary of the book Message to the Blackman in America written by him. I suggest rather than blithely attacking my sources you simply have a look at them.

quote:
Not at all. Nor would I consider Jesus the same as modern right-wing Baptists. Certainly Elijah Muhammed influenced the NOI today. This tells us little however.
According to NOI he is a "prophet" and unlike jesus this was only 60 years ago. Not quite a good comparison.

But really like Djehuti said the NOI is not really what this is about. Lets try to the actual topic of the thread. We are discussing the genetic fitness of indigenous Africans and that in relation to other human populations.

quote:
The theology as espoused by Elijah Muhammed seems to be based upon a well established logical tradition dating back to the Egyptian Dusé Mohamed Ali and perhaps much earlier.
back on topic,who is duse muhamed and what does this have to in relation to the main topic? What is this "logical tradition" you speak of?

quote:
Many of Elijah Muhammeds "simple" observations are based upon the casual observation of the social and psychological norms of Anglo-Americans produced by African-Americans in the deep south. Much of this primary research calls for more sophisticated and up-to-date analysis.
Interesting but again vague. What does "asymmetry" mean?
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alTakruri
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I don't think anyone can successfully seperate
the Lost Found Nation of Islam from the teachings
of its secondary founder Elijah Muhammad nor
remove his three most primary disciples Malcolm X,
Louis Farrakhan, and Muhammad Ali, from their
birth of greatness in the NOI. Were ther no NOI
these men probably wouldn't have rose to the level
of greatness that they have.

Elijah Muhammad indeed taught that the whites arose
from deliberate "grafting" by selectively mating
succeeding generations of light skinned "originals"
by a mentally/morally unbalanced scientist named
Yakub(?).

I'm not sure where it appears in writing but try
Message to the Black Man in America by Elijah Muhammad.

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alTakruri
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Message to the Blackman

CHAPTER 55

THE MAKING OF DEVIL


quote:


57 ... Six thousand years ago, or to be more exact 6,600 years ago, as Allah taught me, our nation gave birth to another God whose name was Yakub. He started studying the life germ of man to try making a new creation (new man) ...

59 ... [Mr. Yakub] will change civilization (the world), and produce a new race of people, who would rule the original black nation for 6,000 years
(from the nine thousandth year to the fifteen thousandth year).

60 After that time, the original black nation would give birth to one, whose wisdom, Knowledge and power would be infinite. One, whom the world would recognize as being the greatest and mightiest God, since the creation of the universe. And, that He would destroy Yakub's world and restore the original nation, or ancient nation, into power to rule forever.

63 ... He will remove and destroy the present, old warring wicked world of Yakub (the Caucasian world) and set up a world of peace and righteousness, out of the present so-called Negroes, who are rejected and despised by this world.

65 ... When Yakub was six years old, one day, he was sitting down playing with two pieces of steel. He noticed the magnetic power in the steel attracting the other. He looked up at his uncle and said: Uncle, when I get to be an old man, I am going to make a people who shall rule you. The uncle said: What will you make; something to make mischief and cause bloodshed in the land? Yakub said: Nevertheless, Uncle, I know that which you do not know.

69 Yakub was the founder of unlike attracts and like repels, though Mr. Yakub was a member of the black nation. He began school at the age of four. He had an unusual sized head. When he had grown up, the others referred to him as the Big head scientist.

70 At the age of 18 he had finished all of the colleges and universities of his nation, ...

71 He learned from studying the germ of the black man, under the microscope, that there were two people in him, and that one was black, the other brown.

72 He said if he could successfully separate the one from the other he could graft the brown germ into its last stage, which would be white.
With his wisdom, he could make the white, which he discovered was the weaker of the black germ (which would be unalike) rule the black nation for a time (until a greater one than Yakub was born).

73 This new idea put him to work finding the necessary converts to begin grafting his new race of people. ...


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alTakruri
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quote:


82 ... the Government began to make preparation for the exiling of Mr. Yakub and his followers. The King ordered everyone rounded up who was a believer in Mr. Yakub. They took them to the seaport and loaded them on ships.

83 After rounding them all up into ships, they numbered 59,999. Yakub made 60,000. Their ships sailed out to an Isle in the Aegean Sea called Pelan (Bible Patmos). After they were loaded into the ships, Mr. Yakub examined each of them to see if they were 100 per cent with him; and to see if they were all healthy and productive people. If not, he would throw them off. Some were found to be unfit and overboard they went.

84 When they arrived at the Isle, Mr. Yakub said to them: See how they (the Holy people) have cast us out. Now -- if you will choose me to be your King, I will teach you how to go back and rule them all.

85 Of course, they had already chosen Yakub to be their King at the very start. So, Yakub chose doctors, ministers, nurses and a cremator for his top laborers. He called these laborers together and told them his plan for making a new people, who would rule for 6,000 years.

86 He called the doctor first and said: Doctor, let all the people come to you who want to marry; and if there come to you two real black ones, take a needle and get a little of their blood and go into your room and pretend to be examining it, to see whether their blood would mix. Then, come and tell them that they will each have to find another mate, because their blood does not mix. (It was the aim of Yakub to get rid of the black and he did.) Give them a certificate to take to the minister, warning the minister against marrying the couple because their blood does not mix. When there comes to you two browner ones, take a pretended blood test of them; but, give them a certificate saying that they are eligible to marry.

88 The brown and black could not be married (brown only). The doctors of today hold the same position over the people. You go to them to get a blood test to see if you are fit to be married.

89 Today, they say it is done to see if there are any contagious germs in the blood. I wish that they would enforce such a law today (keep the white from mixing with black -- just the opposite). Perhaps we could remain black and not be disgraced by a mixture of all colors.

90 In the days of Yakub's grafting of the present white race, a new and unalike race among the black nation for 600 years, his law was -- that they should not allow the birth of a black baby in their family, but the white (devil) should mix their blood with the black nation, in order to help destroy black; but, they should not allow the black to mix with their blood.




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alTakruri
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quote:

91 His aim was to kill and destroy the black nation. He ordered the nurses to kill all black babies that were born among his people, by pricking the brains with a sharp needle as soon as the black child's head is out of the mother.

95 When there was a birth of a brown baby, the nurse would come and make much ado over it, and, would tell the mother that she had given birth to a holy child and that she would nurse it for the next six weeks, for her child was going to be a great man (that is when it was a boy baby).

96 After the first 200 years, Mr. Yakub had done away with the black babies, and all were brown. After another 200 years, he had all yellow or red, which was 400 years after being on Pelan. Another 200 years, which brings us to the six hundredth year, Mr. Yakub had an all-pale white race of people on this Isle.

98 The Yakub made devils were really pale white, with really blue eyes; which we think are the ugliest of colors for a human eye. They were called Caucasian -- which means, according to some of the Arab scholars, One whose evil effect is not confined to one's self alone, but affects others.



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alTakruri
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Here's something that's happened/happening right
here on this forum right now and successfully by
epitaph using trolls instigating ethnic hatred.
When will we ever learn? Instead of seeing thru
the trick some of us attack the ethnic group that
the agent provocateur claims to belong to.


quote:

104 Mr. Yakub taught his made devils on Pelan: That -- when you go back to the holy black nation, rent a room in their homes. Teach your wives to go out the next morning around the neighbors of the people, and tell that you heard her talking about them last night.

105 When you have gotten them fighting and killing each other, then ask them to let you help settle their disputes, and restore peace among them. If they agree, then you will be able to rule them both. This method the white race practices on the black nation, the world over. They upset their peace by putting one against the other, and then rule them after dividing them.

106 This is the reason why the American so-called Negroes can never agree on unity among themselves, which would put them on top overnight. The devils keep them divided by paid informers from among themselves. They keep such fools among us. But, the real truth of the devils sometimes converts the informers and brings them over to us as true believers.

107 After Yakub's devils were among the Holy people of Islam (the black nation) for six months, they had our people at war with each other. The holy people were unable to understand, just why they could not get along in peace with each other, ...



Message to the Blackman

CHAPTER 55

THE MAKING OF DEVIL


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ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
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^dude, do you know that some of your links often lead to "http://www./"?. I'm guessing this isn't your intention.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumman f6f:

Aren't most systems on this planet built this way.

By systems, I take it you mean living organisms. Yes they are. But how genetically fit depends on the organism and its relation to its environment.

quote:
What does that mean? Which other populations on this planet are less genetically diverse such that they won't be able to survive and compete in their environment? How does one explain the Bubonic Plague that killed millions of Europeans, or so I've read. Were they less genetically diverse? If they were less then why are they still here? Or was it the killer plague ran its course before the Europeans needed some of that diversity help you're talking about.
Apparenlty you don't understand the concept of 'in relation to'. I never said non-African populations have no genetic diversity or fitness at all, but that it is less than those of Africa. In the case of Bubonic plague of Europe, the main reason why Europeans still exist is that simply the plauge ended! However, there is a genetic reason also as to why some who got sick survived and it does indeed have to do with genetic diversity. It's now know that some Europeans were resistant to the plague due to a unique mutation, and interestingly it is this same mutation that makes them immune to HIV. Of course not all Europeans have this mutation which is why alot more Euorpeans whould have been wiped out if the plauge itself had not ended. The point is Africans have even greater genetic diversity than populations of Europe or anywhere else which is why they have better chances at surviving similar scenerios.

Another example would be the heterozygous state of sickle cell allele which does not cause disease but even confers resistance to the parasite that causes Malaria. There are 4 forms of sickle cell in the world with 3 of those originating in Africa, again due to Africans' greater genetic diversity.

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alTakruri
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Those aren't links they're just underscores. In
the above series of posts only the source notation

Message to the Blackman

CHAPTER 55

THE MAKING OF DEVIL


is a link. Generally I write "clickable link" when
my underscores are meant to be links.

I use hi-liting (underscores, italics, bolding)
as a shortcut to the most relevent points being
made. Saves time for those who may not want to
read the entire contextual passage.

quote:
Originally posted by Young H*O*R*U*S:
^dude, do you know that some of your links often lead to "http://www./"?. I'm guessing this isn't your intention.


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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
quote:
This is not a direct quote of Elijah Muhammed. This is a book summary posted on some website dedicated to projecting negative stereotypes about Hip-Culture. Use primary sources.
The "source" you are attacking is actually a summary of the book Message to the Blackman in America written by him. I suggest rather than blithely attacking my sources you simply have a look at them.
Evergreen Writes:

No. The standard is to look at the source AND provide qualitative analysis.

quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
quote:
[QUOTE]Not at all. Nor would I consider Jesus the same as modern right-wing Baptists. Certainly Elijah Muhammed influenced the NOI today. This tells us little however.
According to NOI he is a "prophet" and unlike jesus this was only 60 years ago. Not quite a good comparison.
Evergreen Writes:

Not. Muhammed of Arabia is considered the last "prophet" in this theology. Master Fard Muhammed is considered the Mahdi or Messiah.

quote:
Originally posted by Mmmkay:
[QUOTE]But really like Djehuti said the NOI is not really what this is about. Lets try to the actual topic of the thread. We are discussing the genetic fitness of indigenous Africans and that in relation to other human populations..

Evergreen Writes:

You're the one who took us off topic with your odd claim that Elijah Muhammeds beliefs were odd. I simply responded to your inaccurate statment. My original post simply stated that Elijah Muhammed schooled us on the issue of African genetic fitness in simple terms years ago. No more no less.

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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I don't think anyone can successfully seperate
the Lost Found Nation of Islam from the teachings
of its secondary founder Elijah Muhammad nor
remove his three most primary disciples Malcolm X,
Louis Farrakhan, and Muhammad Ali, from their
birth of greatness in the NOI. Were ther no NOI
these men probably wouldn't have rose to the level
of greatness that they have.

Elijah Muhammad indeed taught that the whites arose
from deliberate "grafting" by selectively mating
succeeding generations of light skinned "originals"
by a mentally/morally unbalanced scientist named
Yakub(?).

I'm not sure where it appears in writing but try
Message to the Black Man in America by Elijah Muhammad.

Evergreen Writes:

Indeed, Elijah Muhammed was a master psychologist who used the Bible to free the minds of a people who were a few generations out of chattel slavery. The pejorative use of the term devil (Set/Satan) as a refernce to Whites is no longer called for. But was a neccessary part of the liberation process at that time.

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Djehuti
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^ [Eek!] Still, after reading what Takruri just cited I can see that the NOI is more of a cult and more distant from true Islam than I originally thought!
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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ [Eek!] Still, after reading what Takruri just cited I can see that the NOI is more of a cult and more distant from true Islam than I originally thought!

Evergreen Writes:

I am unsure what "true Islam" is or how you chose to define a cult. Please elaborate.

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mentu
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Djehuti,

What is 'true' islam?

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Grumman
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Evergreen writes:
''Indeed, Elijah Muhammed was a master psychologist who used the Bible to free the minds of a people who were a few generations out of chattel slavery. The pejorative use of the term devil (Set/Satan) as a refernce to Whites is no longer called for.''

Is there historical contextual information on Set/h as a reference to whites (even though Elijah Muhammad sees no modern need to use it against whites anymore). Another poster on another topic(?)says Set can be used for several interpretations. I'm just curious as to the origins, if any, of Seth as an evil person and white.

Finally, if Elijah sees no more need to use ''satan'' against whites did someone in the organization convince him it wasn't true, with historical information?

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alTakruri
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I don't see any difference in the religion Elijah
Muhammad founded any other religion. They all are
based on irrational suppositions to some extent or
other and they all seem to fit the situation their
first promulgaters found themselves in at the time.

The Lost-Found Nation of Islam played an acute
vital role in the negro and coloured communities
of USA breeding a sense of responsibilty, moral
fibre, and nation-building that previously was
sorely lacking (since Garvey's UNIA organization
which was Elijah Muhammad's seminal precursor).

If anything, Elijah Muhammad was paying back a
debt owed to the cults which bred God's/Noah's
curse of black skin combined with slavery on
Hham/Canaan that was used to relegate Africans,
and all blacks Europeans encountered elsewhere,
to the rank of 3/5ths of a man, soulless beasts,
sub-human animals, etc.

Elijah Muhammad, despite his use of the word
science, was not about science or history or
anthropology. He was about a mythos and the
cultural chauvinism needed to unite a disparate
people into a nation, the Lost-Found Nation of
Islam no matter how tenuous his tenets were in
regard to Arabo-Pakistani Islam or any African
Islam he knew about or used.

Fard Muhammad, and there's enough evidence to
say there really was such a person, laid down
the basic principles that Elijah Muhammad added
to and develped into one the most brilliant
independent movements birth by Middle Passage
descendents. It only succumbed when his son
attempted to islamize the Nation into an Arabo-
Pakistani mirror image. But Arabs and Pakistanis
never underwent what America's blacks did thus
their Islam was not in tune and had little appeal
to the masses of people Elijah Muhammad intended
to and succeeded in uplifting from a slave/ghetto
mentality to that of a free operative humanity in
a world of relative peerage.

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Yonis2
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Why didn't Eilajah Mohammed start a whole new religion instead of altering the islamic religion?
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alTakruri
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When you die, be sure to ask him
and Fard Muhammad, the originator.

If you can't wait, there are books
available on the Nation's history.
Read several by different authors
of various bias, favorable and critical.

Failing that, read Elijah Muhammad's
own book Message to the Blackman
in America
. It's available free online.

You may also want to consider why
Muhammad didn't start a new religion
instead of altering Christianity and
Judaism and Sabean or whatever beliefs
where current with his Arab people.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Evergreen Writes:

I am unsure what "true Islam" is or how you chose to define a cult. Please elaborate.

quote:
Originally posted by mentu:

Djehuti, What is 'true' islam?

I'm no Muslim nor do I claim to be an expert on Islam, but I just thought a Muslim is one whose beliefs and practices are those written in the Quran and the Hadith. The NOI may have those beliefs and practices but they seem to have other extra beliefs as well that are not part of the doctrines.

Unless Evergreen minds explaining such things. Then again, this thread that was already off-topic but pertained to a scientific finding has now turned to the Nation of Islam kind of bothers me.

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quote:
You may also want to consider why
Muhammad didn't start a new religion
instead of altering Christianity and
Judaism and Sabean or whatever beliefs
where current with his Arab people.

That's not the same, he didn't name the islamic religion "nation of christianity" or starting talking about an arab scientist who created the jewish people in a lab 10 000 years ago.
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alTakruri
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Have it your way.

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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Elijah Muhammad, despite his use of the word
science, was not about science or history or
anthropology.

Evergreen Writes:

This seems to be a broad an unsubstantiated claim. How does one act or what does one say when they are "about science"?

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Evergreen Writes:

I am unsure what "true Islam" is or how you chose to define a cult. Please elaborate.

quote:
Originally posted by mentu:

Djehuti, What is 'true' islam?

I'm no Muslim nor do I claim to be an expert on Islam, but I just thought a Muslim is one whose beliefs and practices are those written in the Quran and the Hadith. The NOI may have those beliefs and practices but they seem to have other extra beliefs as well that are not part of the doctrines.

Unless Evergreen minds explaining such things. Then again, this thread that was already off-topic but pertained to a scientific finding has now turned to the Nation of Islam kind of bothers me.

Evergreen Writes:

I don't believe I am required to explain anything. I am not the one who made the claim about "true Islam". If you had no interest in discussing the NOI you should have remained silent on the topic. No need to duck once called out.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
It only succumbed when his son
attempted to islamize the Nation into an Arabo-
Pakistani mirror image. But Arabs and Pakistanis
never underwent what America's blacks did thus
their Islam was not in tune and had little appeal
to the masses of people Elijah Muhammad intended
to and succeeded in uplifting from a slave/ghetto
mentality to that of a free operative humanity in a world of relative peerage.

Evergreen Writes:

I would agree with this.

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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by Yonis2:
Why didn't Eilajah Mohammed start a whole new religion instead of altering the islamic religion?

Evergreen Writes:

The Islamic religion derives from Judeo-Christianity, which in turn derives from a NE African cosmology akin to the basic tenants as taught by Elijah Muhammed.

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