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Author Topic: Andamans are essentially African
osirion
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The Great Andamanese are essentially the first East Africans that left. This is what they looked like.


The first Indians
Among the world’s oldest indigenous populations, too

Indian scientists have uncovered a missing link in the prehistoric human migration jigsaw puzzle by revealing that two reclusive tribes in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands are among the world’s oldest surviving indigenous groups.

The researchers from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (ccmb), in Hyderabad, have gathered enough genetic clues to prove that the Great Andamanese and the Onge, whose numbers are shrinking day by day, are the direct descendants of modern humans who evolved in east Africa some 150,000 years ago (Science, May 13, Vol 308, No 5724).

“Ancient genetic mutations found in these groups make them closer to Africans than any other populations that survive today,” Lalji Singh, ccmb director and a co-author of the study, told Down To Earth.

The study looked at the mitochondrial dna (mdna), which is ideal to trace maternal lineage. Led by K Thangaraj, the scientists analysed m dna of three tribes living in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands — the Great Andamanese, the Onges and the Nicobarese — and compared them with mutations in 6,500 mdna samples of different populations on mainland India. Explaining the method, the scientists said any population slowly accumulates mutations in certain parts of m dna. For instance, after a population splits, the people going east will gain a set of mutations different from those heading west. The mutation patterns help scientists reconstruct family trees and even work out rough dates of each branching off. While the Great Andamanese and the Onges are Negritos (similar to African pygmies), the Nicobarese are Mongloid (similar to Chinese and Malays).

The study revealed both the Great Andamanese and the Onges carry certain genetic mutations not reported elsewhere. “Our data indicate that two ancient maternal lineages, m 31 and m 32 in the Onges and the Great Andamanese respectively, have evolved in the Andaman Islands independently from South and Southeast Asian populations (that are Mongloid),” the team said.

It also conclusively proved that Nicobarese tribals have genetic resemblance to populations in Southeast Asia and probably arrived in the islands some 18,000 years ago. On the contrary, the Andaman tribes reached there much earlier — about 65,000 years back. The modern humans are believed to have started moving out of Africa about 70,000 years ago.

The study has put a question mark on prevailing understanding on probable routes taken by the first Eurasians out of Africa. As per the reigning theory, they moved north along the Nile river, across the Sinai Peninsula, into central Asia before travelling east towards India. “But our findings suggest they also traced a coastal route along east Africa and the Arabian Peninsula into South Asia,” said Thangaraj. If this is true, they would likely have traced a route through Pakistan and west coast of India to the Andamans.

According to Peter Forster and Shuichi Matsumura of Cambridge University, who wrote an accompanying commentary on the ccmb study, this inference can partly explain why distant Australia was settled thousands of years before Europe, which is close to Africa. It is believed that Neanderthals were replaced in Europe only 30,000-40,000 years ago, whereas southern Australia was inhabited 46,000 years ago and northern Australia and Southeast Asia even earlier.


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Djehuti
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Osirion, nobody is disputing that their ultimate origins are in Africa, but these populations have been living outside of Africa for one of the longest so are they not genetically more distant than some other Out-Of-African peoples. If so, how can they be "essentially African"?

Also, the Andamanese are not the only Negrito groups, there are others sparsely scattered throughout Southeast Asia in Malaysia and including the Philippines, what about them?

Also what about other aboriginal groups of South and Southeast Asia like the Veddoid, proto-australoid, and Senoi groups?


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rasol
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Good article. Not sure you interpret it entirely correctly though

Your TOPIC: Andamans are essentially African, would more approprately read: Andamans are essentially the original Asians.

see.....

Ancient genetic mutations found in these groups make them closer to Africans than any other populations that survive today -
Lalji Singh

This is relevant to the study of the origins of M Haplogroup mtdna which is found most commonly among Andaman Islanders, Indians, and in East Africa, especially among ethiopians.

It means Addaman Islanders are the M haplogroup Asians most closely related to other Africans...ie compared to other M haplogroup Asians.

and...

Our data indicate that two ancient maternal lineages, m 31 and m 32 in the Onges and the Great Andamanese respectively, have evolved in the Andaman Islands independently from South and Southeast Asian populations

This is significant because it suggests that Andaman islanders are the best candidates in Asia for the origins of Haplogroup M. East AFrica carries M1 which appears to have originated in Ethiopia. M 31 and M 32 have not been found in Africa.

M is a downstream lineage of L3. All non Africans are L3M or L3N. L3* [L3 with no M or N downstream lineages] is entirely African.

Either L3M originated in East Africa, among the ancesters of Andaman Islanders, or it originated in South India among the Andamans and then back migrated into Ethiopia.

If L3M [M} originated in Africa apparently the oldest lineages either died out or are uncommon - much more work needs to be done in places like Ethiopia to know for certain.

If L3M [M] originated in Asia then apparantly L3* [it's parent halpogroup] died out in Asia.


The origin of the Andaman "Negrito" and Nicobar "Mongoloid" populations has been ambiguous. Our analyses of complete mitochondrial DNA sequences from Onges and Great Andaman populations revealed two deeply branching clades that share their most recent common ancestor in founder haplogroup M, with lineages spread among India, Africa, East Asia, New Guinea, and Australia. This distribution suggests that these two clades have likely survived in genetic isolation since the initial settlement of the islands during an out-of-Africa migration by anatomically modern humans. In contrast, Nicobarese sequences illustrate a close genetic relationship with populations from Southeast Asia.

1 Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad-500 007, India.
2 Estonian Biocenter, Riia 23, Tartu-51010, Estonia

lastly

quote:
is believed that Neanderthals were replaced in Europe only 30,000-40,000 years ago, whereas southern Australia was inhabited 46,000 years ago and northern Australia and Southeast Asia even earlier.

True and why? No Neanderthal compettitors in Australia.

Europe, as one of the last places on earth to be settled cannot logically be a source/origin point for genes, phenotypes or "races", except for the 'white' peoples who live there now, notwithstanding southern Europeans mixed with Blacks, or northern europeans mixed with East Asiasn.

Race 'purity' doesn't exist, but even if it did, Europe is the literally the last place on earth to search for it.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 June 2005).]


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osirion
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Osirion, nobody is disputing that their ultimate origins are in Africa, but these populations have been living outside of Africa for one of the longest so are they not genetically more distant than some other Out-Of-African peoples. If so, how can they be "essentially African"?

Also, the Andamanese are not the only Negrito groups, there are others sparsely scattered throughout Southeast Asia in Malaysia and including the Philippines, what about them?

Also what about other aboriginal groups of South and Southeast Asia like the Veddoid, proto-australoid, and Senoi groups?



Did you read the article or not?

“Ancient genetic mutations found in these groups make them closer to Africans than any other populations that survive today,” Lalji Singh, ccmb director and a co-author of the study, told Down To Earth.

They have the Ancient Genetic mutations of the original Out of African people. That means these people are gentically similar to the original people according to this research.


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Djehuti
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Another thing interesting about the Negritos is that they posssess a feature (particularly the women) peculiar among non-African groups, and this is steatopygia!!

For those that don't know, steatopygia is the technical scientific term for "big booty"! Not only do they have steatopygia but they have the extreme form that in Africa is common only among the Khoisan peoples of Southern Africa. I've heard of the expression among my African American friends of "a booty so big, you set a drink on it". Well, in the case of extreme steatopygia, not only can you put a drink on it, you can also set a baby on it too!!

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 10 June 2005).]


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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:

Did you read the article or not?

“Ancient genetic mutations found in these groups make them [b]closer to Africans than any other populations that survive today,” Lalji Singh, ccmb director and a co-author of the study, told Down To Earth.


The question is do you understand specifically what is being noted here. This is not a study of genetic distance, but rather of affinities in specific haplotypes.

It means the Andamans L3 with downstream M lineage is closest to African L3 whent compared to other downstream L3M or L3N lineage - which is to say the entire natively non-african world.

quote:
Originally posted by Topdog:

It doesn't put into question the intermediate status because all non-Africans have clades that are rooted in haplogroups M and N. M and N are rooted in African haplogroup L3*. L3 has an East African origin and most of the Ethiopian and Somali mtDNA lineages are from L3. Of course there was extensive branching all over Africa which is why you see L2 and L3 lineages all over Africa.

Why is this significant?

quote:
rasol writes...
Making East Africa largely a genetic subset of Africa, and the rest of the world largely a genetic subset of East Africa. Correct.

For this reason East Africans will virtually ALWAYS be genetically 'intermediate' between ->

* the rest of indigenous Africa,

** anyplace outside of Africa.

posted earlier:


West African:

Eurasian [Indonesia]:

* note: adaman islanders are just as 'eurasian' as japanese islanders and british islanders.

The East African Oromo - are "intermediate" between the above two peoples:

This would be true even if Europe and European whites did not exist, as they have nothing to do with it.



quote:
They have the Ancient Genetic mutations of the original Out of African people.

True. But what you just said = original Out of Africa people is equivelant to -> 1st EurAsians.

This is not withstanding the fact that these people have also been evolving for 80k years outside of Africa, and so are distinct as all people are from those who lived 80k years ago. Subtle distinctions I know, and difficult, yet interesting ideas.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 June 2005).]


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osirion
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The article actually gives me the impression that these people are actually a better representative of the original East Africans than the current East Africans (who have been evolving as well).


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rasol
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quote:
Originally posted by osirion:

The article actually gives me the impression that these people are actually a better representative of the original East Africans than the current East Africans (who have been evolving as well).


I can see how you could get that impression from the way the article is written.

However, the article doesn't say that, and that would be the wrong impression.

For example: many Africans share L1 lineages which are the oldest in the world, and which are not found anywhere outside of Africa

L1 begat l2 and L3, L3 begat L3M -> Andaman Islander.

Africans like the Oromo and the San still have L1.

see.....

Ethiopians and Khoisan Share the Deepest Clades of the Human Y-Chromosome Phylogeny


[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 June 2005).]


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rasol
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Of relevance to Eurocentrists.

They try to avoid the implications of RAO by suggesting that only L2 lineages, denote Black tropically adapted [ie curly hair, broad nosed] phenotypes.....

but as we see, the earliest non African L3 East AFrican derived lineages -> ie - Andaman Islander L3M mtdana, also have dark skin, curly hair, and broad nose.

Ancient whites of East Africa do not exist.

White people are a very recent and specific product of ICE Age Eurasia.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 June 2005).]


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osirion
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Eurocentric is perhaps the wrong term. These people are Caucacentric. They see that everything of any great value in terms of human culture can be attributed to Caucasian phenotypes. As I have discovered, the Caucasians throughout history have been very good in a single area: The Art of War.

However, technology, culture and civilization is not attributable to areas of pure Caucasians (Europe) until recent times. This implies that the origin of these attributes comes from another group.

The core of culture has always been religion and Jews are known for this more than any other group. ;-) Just had to mention that.


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Whatbox
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[Roll Eyes] ^

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Good article. Not sure you interpret it entirely correctly though

Your TOPIC: Andamans are essentially African, would more approprately read: Andamans are essentially the original Asians.

see.....

Ancient genetic mutations found in these groups make them closer to Africans than any other populations that survive today -
Lalji Singh

This is relevant to the study of the origins of M Haplogroup mtdna which is found most commonly among Andaman Islanders, Indians, and in East Africa, especially among ethiopians.

It means Addaman Islanders are the M haplogroup Asians most closely related to other Africans...ie compared to other M haplogroup Asians.

and...

Our data indicate that two ancient maternal lineages, m 31 and m 32 in the Onges and the Great Andamanese respectively, have evolved in the Andaman Islands independently from South and Southeast Asian populations

This is significant because it suggests that Andaman islanders are the best candidates in Asia for the origins of Haplogroup M. East AFrica carries M1 which appears to have originated in Ethiopia. M 31 and M 32 have not been found in Africa.

M is a downstream lineage of L3. All non Africans are L3M or L3N. L3* [L3 with no M or N downstream lineages] is entirely African.

Either L3M originated in East Africa, among the ancesters of Andaman Islanders, or it originated in South India among the Andamans and then back migrated into Ethiopia.

If L3M [M} originated in Africa apparently the oldest lineages either died out or are uncommon - much more work needs to be done in places like Ethiopia to know for certain.

If L3M [M] originated in Asia then apparantly L3* [it's parent halpogroup] died out in Asia.

^ Always puttin things in their proper perspective.

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Of relevance to Eurocentrists.

They try to avoid the implications of RAO by suggesting that only L2 lineages, denote Black tropically adapted [ie curly hair, broad nosed] phenotypes.....

but as we see, the earliest non African L3 East AFrican derived lineages -> ie - Andaman Islander L3M mtdana, also have dark skin, curly hair, and broad nose.

Ancient whites of East Africa do not exist.

White people are a very recent and specific product of ICE Age Eurasia.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 June 2005).]

Yes yes yes.
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