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Author Topic: "Asiatic"
Mystery Solver
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The familiar term "Asiatic" has been referenced quite a bit here, but imo, it is almost akin to how "Nubian" has been in *contemporary times* indiscrimately applied to people beyond Egypts southern border to at least the 6th cataract, when no such term even exists in the times under study. In several instances "Aamu" has been equated with "Asiatics" in translations, again almost akin to the way "Nehesu", perhaps "Medjay", and other such terms have casually been translated into either "Nubians", or even "Negroes" in some cases. Surely "Aamu" doesn't mean "Asiatic". I can understand the drive behind the association between "Aamu" and "Asiatics" to the extent that the said peoples generally originated from what is today *geopolitically* referred to as being part of "SW Asia", but what does "Asiatic" mean? Perhaps 'like Asian, but not quite'?

Did AE deal with single ethnic and/or political group of people called "Asiatic"? We know that several wall murals depict certain consistent hair and facial conventions accompanied by the term "Aamu". While "Aamu" itself may have been something of a appellative [ethnic term] and hence, didn't specifically refer to any known political entity, the said various murals did depict certain consistencies in the characters so-described. Did the "Aamu" come from a single geographical locale, perhaps even polity, where people sported similar hairstyles and facial characteristics, or did they come from different polities where people sported similar hairstyles and facial characteristics? Did Kemetians apply "name" distinctions amongst the "Aamu" at any time?

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Sabalour
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For starters, here is what the Hannig Handwörterbuch says about '3m:
code:
-'3m Asiatic (Inhabitant of the Eastern Desert) Semite, Canaanite;
-'3m Syrian slave
-'3m(y-n-sk3):keeper of the oxen waggon
-'3m(w nw Hrjw-S') Asiatic nomads
-'3m(w nw rTnw) Asiatics from Retjenu


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Mystery Solver
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COTONOU_BY_NIGHT posts:

For starters, here is what the Hannig Handwörterbuch says about '3m:

-'3m Asiatic (Inhabitant of the Eastern Desert) Semite, Canaanite;
-'3m Syrian slave
-'3m(y-n-sk3):keeper of the oxen waggon
-'3m(w nw Hrjw-S') Asiatic nomads
-'3m(w nw rTnw) Asiatics from Retjenu


^^Alright, that is something to work with "for starters". Note that I've highlighted certain Mdu Ntr terms that your Handworterbuch citation provides, because this at least provides an indication of a certain level of *distinction* within the '3m' or 'Aamu' appellative by the Kemetou.

Several other points about this Handworterbuch citation...

"Asiatic":

However, note that your citation also repeats the term "Asiatic", something that wasn't in the vocabulary of the Kemetou, and hence another casual translation imo, pending elaboration to the contrary.

"Syrian":

The same could be said about "Syrian". What is this supposed to mean, from a Kemetic standpoint? Did Kemetic refer to the term "Syrian" or were these people specifically called something else? What indication are we given that this '3m' or that '3m' entity is equal to "Syrian"?

"-'3m":

What gives us any indication of what differentiates "-3m", which according to the citation means "Asiatic", "Semite" or "Canaanite", from "-3m" as a "Syrian slave"?


"'3m(y-n-sk3):keeper of the oxen waggon":

Did this refer to certain people from a certain polity(s), or just about anyone who fit the description?

"'3m(w nw Hrjw-S') Asiatic nomads":

Nomads from where?

"-'3m(w nw rTnw) Asiatics from Retjenu":

Of the list provided, this seems to be the most specific of the bunch, as far as translation goes. Still, is Retjenu simply a geography somewhere [and if so, where?] or a specific polity?

Having said that, good start by Cotonou.

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Djehuti
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Don't forget, as with so-called 'Nubians', the Egyptians also specified the different ethnies of said 'Asiatics' like Aradus, Cherb, Ekeret, Keshkesh, Kizwanda, Irun, etc.
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alTakruri
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The whole origin of Asiatic is built on the
misnomer SW Asia/Middle East/etc. If the
people there are Asians why aren't they
just called Asians? Why aren't Chinese
or Japanese called Asiatic?

The name makers know that aren't describing
a people of Asia, hence the roundabout way
of introducing Asia affiliation to things
African, i.e. Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
for a language spoken nowhere in Asia and
originating in north east Africa.

So why is Asia so prominently spelled out in
the terminology Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
while Africa is only hinted at in the prefix?

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alTakruri
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Syrian comes from Tsur/SSur a self-determined label
(i.e., those people made it up for themselves to use).

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The whole origin of Asiatic is built on the
misnomer SW Asia/Middle East/etc. If the
people there are Asians why aren't they
just called Asians? Why aren't Chinese
or Japanese called Asiatic?

The name makers know that aren't describing
a people of Asia, hence the roundabout way
of introducing Asia affiliation to things
African, i.e. Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
for a language spoken nowhere in Asia and
originating in north east Africa.

So why is Asia so prominently spelled out in
the terminology Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
while Africa is only hinted at in the prefix?

^ Yep. I kind a figured that to be true. 'Asiatic' means of Asia, but I thought this is in regards to ancient times. Hence, ancient Indians if present in the Fertile Crescent would be Asiatic as well or Chinese.
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Syrian comes from Tsur/SSur a self-determined label
(i.e., those people made it up for themselves to use).

Good to know. Well at least 'Syrian' is actually based on their self-designated ethnonym and not like 'Egyptian' is with the Kmtwy.
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alTakruri
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So Asiatic means "of Asia."
Thanks for the news (to me).
I've only encountered it in
application to the Levant
and perimeter. I got to get
out and broaden my little
world some.

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Mystery Solver
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Okay we at least have a clue about the possible etymological origin for the name "Syrian", but remember, we are dealing here with translations of Mdu Ntr. As asked earlier, what translation would justify translation into "Syrian" specifically, as far as "Aamu" is concerned?

In various instances, as I noted time and again, "Aamu" is equated with "Asiatic" in translations, but the former doesn't invoke any such thing, at least as far as I am aware of. Cotonou provided some terms for starters, and even then, some questions still bound. Again, the issue is of Kemetic perception and conceptualization of "Aamu" and whether available translations do justice to it.

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The whole origin of Asiatic is built on the
misnomer SW Asia/Middle East/etc. If the
people there are Asians why aren't they
just called Asians?
Why aren't Chinese
or Japanese called Asiatic?

The name makers know that aren't describing
a people of Asia, hence the roundabout way
of introducing Asia affiliation to things
African, i.e. Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
for a language spoken nowhere in Asia and
originating in north east Africa.

So why is Asia so prominently spelled out in
the terminology Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
while Africa is only hinted at in the prefix?

^ Yep. I kind a figured that to be true. 'Asiatic' means of Asia, but I thought this is in regards to ancient times. Hence, ancient Indians if present in the Fertile Crescent would be Asiatic as well or Chinese.
You say that "Asiatic' means "of Asia". To that, I figure that the post you're replying to asks a good question abouts its usage, as highlighted. Put it this way: What then is the difference between "Asiatic" and "Asian", if "Asiatic" means "of Asia", as you put it?

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

...but I thought this is in regards to ancient times. Hence, ancient Indians if present in the Fertile Crescent would be Asiatic as well or Chinese.

Brings us back to the point of the intro notes; where is "Asiatic" attested to in the Nile Valley [and anywhere else of antiquity for that matter], or through what concept?


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Hence, ancient Indians **if** present in the Fertile Crescent would be Asiatic as well or Chinese

Could be misreading your intention here, in which case, clarification is in order, but it seems like you are making a qualifier here:

That if one were an inhabitant of the Fertile Crescent in *antiquity*, presumably, then that makes one "Asiatic". Whereas if one were not an inhabitant of this geographical entity, then one ceases to be "Asiatic".

Therefore the logic goes: Are you suggesting that "Asiatic" only refers to the Fertile Crescent, that this needs to be of antiquity, and that anything beyond this ceases to be "Asiatic"?

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Don't forget, as with so-called 'Nubians', the Egyptians also specified the different ethnies of said 'Asiatics' like Aradus, Cherb, Ekeret, Keshkesh, Kizwanda, Irun, etc.

Okay; on another note, it looks like some headway has been made. I take it that these are Mdu Ntr references, right?! If so,...

*were these people collectively referenced as "Aamu"?

*were one or the other of these people as mentioned, characterized respectively in one or the other of the following sense as presented by Cotonou,...

or

...did each of these characterizations apply to all of them - in other words, did the AE simply stereotype the otherwise ethnic, and/or socially, and/or culturally discrete people(?):

-'3m Syrian **slave**
-'3m(y-n-sk3):keeper of the oxen waggon
-'3m(w nw Hrjw-S') Asiatic nomads
-'3m(w nw rTnw) Asiatics from Retjenu
- posted by Cotonou.

*were these people from a single polity [or otherwise, as the distinct names might suggest] and/or were they of a single ethnicity?

*was there anyone outside this list of people, who were also referred to as "Aamu"?

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Djehuti
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^ As to the whole use of 'Asiatic', I agree with Takruri that there is obviously some Eurocentric bias involved. 'Asiatic' is just a fancy or rather off-beat way of saying Asian. I merely took it as way of describing Asians in ancient times. Then again, I am not all those scholars who've used that label.

As to all those ethnonyms of 'Asiatics'/Asians the Egyptians used. Yes, I am under the impression that Aamu was used as a collective since I have seen many AE depictions of various West Asian men on this board that had the Mdu-neter label of Aamu or Namu-sho (sand nomad) etc.

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alTakruri
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I can't justify the modern use of Syrian to use
as a generic translation for A3MW because today
Syrian means the nation state of Syria. Greco-
Latin authors have used it to mean the whole of
the Levant (east Mediterranean coast). But the
people who lived there were very specific about
Ssur applying to Phoenician Tyre.

The best I can make out for A3MW is that it was
generically applied to all peoples northeast and
east of T3 WY. As such there's no one English
word to appropriately apply save the specialized
meaning for Asiatic (where it doesn't mean central
and far east Asia).

Many other AE noted precise ethnies fit under the
A3MW umbrella. Conquest stelae are the best place
to uncover the plethora of "sub-A3MW" "Asiatics."

Some of A3MW ethnies located in what today is Syria
are individually named here, but were the Hittites
also considered A3MW?

Another thing I wonder is if Persians were ever noted
as A3MW.

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alTakruri
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SIDEBAR

I'd always considered Asiatic to be a pejorative
quote:
Avoid any terms that may give offense to a particular nationality or group. Many pejorative terms are considerably more subtle than those given above. For instance, Asiatic means the same thing as Asian, but is considered insulting by most Asians (a fact recognized even by Webster's).

International Development Research Centre

but this no longer seems to be the case since there
are organizations in Asia (presumably run by Asians
not colonials) employing Asiatic in their titles.

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:


The best I can make out for A3MW is that it was
generically applied to all peoples northeast and
east of T3 WY.
As such there's no one English
word to appropriately apply save the specialized
meaning for Asiatic (where it doesn't mean central
and far east Asia).

If the understanding is that T3 Wy was meant to convey "The Two Lands" denoting Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt, then is it made known in some specific Mdu Ntr texts that *all* people northeast and east of T3Wy were Aamu? This has been one of the primary questions consistently asked here. As you can see from Cotonou's post, the Aamu appellative seems to have had various contexts, some of which have been enhanced in understanding by the accompanying determinatives.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Many other AE noted precise ethnies fit under the
A3MW umbrella. Conquest stelae are the best place
to uncover the plethora of "sub-A3MW" "Asiatics."

Is it this stelae that tells us that specified discrete ethnic groups all fall under "Aamu"? If so, is the primary text attesting to this available to cite?


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Some of A3MW ethnies located in what today is Syria
are individually named here, but were the Hittites
also considered A3MW?


Another thing I wonder is if Persians were ever noted
as A3MW.

Yeah, I've seen that list of names, and I followed it up with questions that remain as question marks, in terms of how we know for sure that these people were referenced as "Aamu". As for question of the "Hittites", that would be a good one; can't imagine why they would be out of the Aamu "club", so to speak, if indeed it was meant to be an appellative of just about anyone from the east of Egypt. The same should apply to the Persians.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

SIDEBAR

I'd always considered Asiatic to be a pejorative
quote:
Avoid any terms that may give offense to a particular nationality or group. Many pejorative terms are considerably more subtle than those given above. For instance, Asiatic means the same thing as Asian, but is considered insulting by most Asians (a fact recognized even by Webster's).

International Development Research Centre

but this no longer seems to be the case since there
are organizations in Asia (presumably run by Asians
not colonials) employing Asiatic in their titles.

Well, the term "Aamu", which has been taken for granted to be tantamount to "Asiatic" without supporting evidence, appears to have been a pejorative by itself, particularly where no determinative accompanies the term, as seen in Cotonou's examples.
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Yes, I am under the impression that Aamu was used as a collective since I have seen many AE depictions of various West Asian men on this board that had the Mdu-neter label of Aamu or Namu-sho (sand nomad) etc.

The ones that have seen so-labeled, as far as I can recall, seem to have this unflinching consistency about hair style with headbands and bearded faces. Would all people living east of Egypt in the so-called "Near East" have conformed to this?
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osiriun
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

Yes, I am under the impression that Aamu was used as a collective since I have seen many AE depictions of various West Asian men on this board that had the Mdu-neter label of Aamu or Namu-sho (sand nomad) etc.

The ones that have seen so-labeled, as far as I can recall, seem to have this unflinching consistency about hair style with headbands and bearded faces. Would all people living east of Egypt in the so-called "Near East" have conformed to this?
Egyptians seemed to have stereotypes. However, most artifacts of the Near East do indeed seem to reflect the bearded look.

 -

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osiriun
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In fact, do Egyptians ever depict themselves bearded in this fashion?
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Mystery Solver
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^^The bearded figure you posted doesn't appear to be that of ancient Egypt art...or is it?


quote:
Originally posted by osiriun:

In fact, do Egyptians ever depict themselves bearded in this fashion?

I have come across mentions of rare occasions of Egyptian figures sporting beards [haven't seen any wall paintings of such myself], which isn't of the fake-looking 'divine' or 'royalty' type attached to the chin of the person, but I haven't come across any pictures depicting Egyptian figures with the bushy or thick types commonly seen in "SW Asian" personalities.


Some familiar images:

Take this guy...
 -

^He has a distinctive attire from this guy...

 -

 -
Actual Wall painting and below…

 -
...repro

 -
Defeated Philistines being led into captivity - Courtesy touregypt.net
^Note the beardless figures.

 -
Defeating enemies at Pekanan - presumably in Canaan.

 -
Apparently some “Near Eastern” figure, displaying the "characteristic" look as that of the “Aamu” labeled figures in the above wall Mural.

 -

Osiriun, you say that the Egyptians seemed to have stereotypes of "SW Asian" folks, but the variety posted here does seem to indicate distinctive looks amongst these people. This cannot be more clearer than the figures next to one another in the very last image. Were all this people [the "SW Asian" personalities] referred to as "Aamu"? Remains to be demonstrated.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by osiriun:

Egyptians seemed to have stereotypes. However, most artifacts of the Near East do indeed seem to reflect the bearded look.

 -

Yes. In fact, even today heavy beards are a common characteristic of 'Middle Eastern' men. The statue above by the way looks Babylonian or Assyrian.

quote:
In fact, do Egyptians ever depict themselves bearded in this fashion?
Not in the full and heavy bearded quality they depicted Aamu. Still, I have seen rare images though of Egyptian men who appear to have natural beards. In fact a couple of images that come to mind are the ones shown on Tut's box-chest depicting him battling against Egypt's enemies. On both sides-- one showing him trampling Kushites and the other trampling Asiatics-- there is a lone Egyptian soldier fighting in the front who is bearded. Cotonou can probaly blow the picture up (but better lighting is preferred). [Wink]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

Some familiar images:

Take this guy...
 -

That guy is a 'Palestu' (Philistine?). I can tell by the red feathered headress. He likely marked as a Sea-person more than an Aamu. But of course the Philistines were known to have colonized the Levant as well.

quote:
^He has a distinctive attire from this guy...

 -

Definitely an Aamu. I'm not sure, but I think most scholars label him as Assyrian.

quote:
 -
Actual Wall painting and below…

 -
...repro

Of course Aamu, Kushites, and Tamahu (Libyans). Don't know exactly what ethny of Aamu though.

quote:
 -
Defeated Philistines being led into captivity - Courtesy touregypt.net
^Note the beardless figures.

The same as the very first close-up pic of the Philistine.

quote:
 -
Defeating enemies at Pekanan - presumably in Canaan.

Wish this was a larger pic.

quote:
 -
Apparently some “Near Eastern” figure, displaying the "characteristic" look as that of the “Aamu” labeled figures in the above wall Mural.

One thing I notice in that hook or whatever, the Aamu has features that look very east Asian-- slanted eyes and pale yellowish skin. His form of his dress looks typical for West Asians, but the color and patterns look unique.

quote:
 -
From left to right: Libyan, Kushite, Assyrian, Philistine, and Hittite(?).

quote:
Osiriun, you say that the Egyptians seemed to have stereotypes of "SW Asian" folks, but the variety posted here does seem to indicate distinctive looks amongst these people. This cannot be more clearer than the figures next to one another in the very last image. Were all this people [the "SW Asian" personalities] referred to as "Aamu"? Remains to be demonstrated.
I think what Osiriun meant was there were certain features the Egyptians held consistent in their portrayal of Asiatics.
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Djehuti
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But I agree that the Egyptians certainly specified different ethnic groups of Aamu. I think the thread here makes it even more clear with the picture presented.

 -

^ Notice the difference in appearance and attire between the two men in front-- one slightly ligther in complexion with more clothing, shorter hair, and no fillet, while the other has darker complexion, shirtless, with longer hair and a fillet.

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alTakruri
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I'm tired of seeing that sallow Phillistine all
the time when the Boston Museum of Art sells (or
once sold) a splendid bookmark of a darkredbrown
Pelisti nobleman.

Tell me why I can't find it in full colour on the net?

quote:
The Philistine, with his feather cap of the type
worn by Lykians and Mykenaeans, * his reddish
skin and small pointed beard, the smooth upper
lip, noted as a feature of the northern and eastern
Mediterranean peoples, the long white plaited
robe, the elaborate embroidery and the decorative
fringes, is well worthy of study.

I don't have a scanner. The best I can do is direct
you to this pdf for a b&w photo
http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf%20library/bmfa_pdfs/bmfa06_1908_47to50.pdf
and if their Hittite isn't a black man then neither
is Lionel Richie.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I'm tired of seeing that sallow Phillistine all
the time when the Boston Museum of Art sells (or
once sold) a splendid bookmark of a darkredbrown
Pelisti nobleman.

Tell me why I can't find it in full colour on the net?

quote:
The Philistine, with his feather cap of the type
worn by Lykians and Mykenaeans, * his reddish
skin and small pointed beard, the smooth upper
lip, noted as a feature of the northern and eastern
Mediterranean peoples, the long white plaited
robe, the elaborate embroidery and the decorative
fringes, is well worthy of study.

I don't have a scanner. The best I can do is direct
you to this pdf for a b&w photo
http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf%20library/bmfa_pdfs/bmfa06_1908_47to50.pdf
and if their Hittite isn't a black man then neither
is Lionel Richie.

 -

Is this the picture

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alTakruri
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Yepper that's the picture.

 -

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Mystery Solver
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Djehuti,

In your last post, I've noticed you replied with no *primary* documentations about this blanket application of "Aamu" while acknowledging that Egyptians have made distinctions amongst them, and I've also noticed your casual usage of "Asiatic", but questions still bound about all these things, that are awaiting answers.

Clyde's post:

Interestingly, Clyde has posted a blown up example of the last image in my post of certain characters therein. The designations given to certain characters are namely, "Syrian, Philistine, Amorite, and Hittite". Whom amongst these is "Aamu" and whom isn't? Why and why not? And it goes without saying, the need for presentation of supporting primary documents.

Back to the last image in my last post:

The first guy is Tamahou, by the way of the hairstyle, attire and perhaps the body tattoos, but the individual to the far right also seems to have a similar attire, notwithstanding different patterns on the clothing itself, but lacks that characteristic Tamahou hairstyle, beard, and for the most part, body tattoos. From where is this character supposed to be?

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alTakruri
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Ah MS, good question indeed.

As I've posted a few times before, it was
originally thought to be a Libyan female by
Bates but now is considered a Hittite male.
 -

 -
Notice how Libyan looking is the Hittite
from the Boston Museum's collection.

These are all glazed tiles from Ramses II's (?)
mortuary temple at Medinat Habu. There are no
overlaps between these two sets. Each is a
distinct work of art, each one a panel on the
temple's wall.

Sorry to digress but this leads me to my
old never commented on thoughts about the
relations between Libya and the Aegean.

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osiriun
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Nothing unusual.
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alTakruri
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Many other AE noted precise ethnies fit under the
A3MW umbrella. Conquest stelae are the best place
to uncover the plethora of "sub-A3MW" "Asiatics."

To whit:

 -

Taken from ImageMaster DougM's collection.
Believe me there are more than enough of these to
make your brain do back over flips in your skull.

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alTakruri
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Aha, this guy's not a Philistine as frauduently perpetrated.
Per the Egyptian Museum he's a 'Syrian' beduin (Sashu[?]).

 -

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Ah MS, good question indeed.

As I've posted a few times before, it was
originally thought to be a Libyan female by
Bates but now is considered a Hittite male.
 -

 -
Notice how Libyan looking is the Hittite
from the Boston Museum's collection.

These are all glazed tiles from Ramses II's (?)
mortuary temple at Medinat Habu. There are no
overlaps between these two sets. Each is a
distinct work of art, each one a panel on the
temple's wall.

Sorry to digress but this leads me to my
old never commented on thoughts about the
relations between Libya and the Aegean.

So, do you see visual or any inscriptional [if there is any] connection between the said Hittite [above: wearing a garment resembling that of the Tamahou figure] and the Hitite so-labeled in Clyde's blown up images [below]?
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alTakruri
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There are no accompanying inscriptions and there's
nothing direct about the two images that connect them.

The Hittite in full color wears a garment resembling
in cut and drape those worn by Libyans, the difference
being the Hittite garment is woven textile but the
Libyan's is a treated skin of some bovine.

The Hittite in b&w has facial features and complexion
(I've seen it in color) that resembles Libyans.

The only connection I can make of them is something
vaguely Libyan about them both, imo.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Aha, this guy's not a Philistine as frauduently perpetrated.
Per the Egyptian Museum he's a 'Syrian' beduin (Sashu[?]).

 -

Really? I myself have always thought him to be Philistine based on the headdress(?)

quote:
There are no accompanying inscriptions and there's
nothing direct about the two images that connect them.

The Hittite in full color wears a garment resembling
in cut and drape those worn by Libyans, the difference
being the Hittite garment is woven textile but the
Libyan's is a treated skin of some bovine.

The Hittite in b&w has facial features and complexion
(I've seen it in color) that resembles Libyans.

The only connection I can make of them is something
vaguely Libyan about them both, imo.

Perhaps a coincidence due to convergence in phenotype(?)
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Sabalour
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Mystery Solver:
Hannig's handwörterbuch doesn't cite its sources, and I don't have access to much currently, so it will probably be tough for me right now to know from which context/cotext lexicologists gave the mentioned meanings in the above occurrences.

However, I'm currently reading Jean Vercoutter's article about the H3w Nbwt and some informations taken from it seemed relevant to me. For example, in Thutmose III's triumph hymn, Vercoutter reports that for poetic purposes, in each strophe referring to one people, a vague geographic designation was first used, followed by a more specific name, hence:
quote:

Strophe II:
I came, I made you take down those who are in Asia (...) you strike the heads of the Asiatics from Retenu

Strophe III:
I came and I made you take down the Eastern world (...) as well as trampling those who are in the districts of ta Neter


Strophe IV:
I came and I made you take down the Western world (...) The Keftiu and Cypriots are under your fear.

Strophe V:
I came and I made you strike thoses who are in their nbwt(...) Mitanni is shuddering under your fear.



What I can get from this , is that in this very text, Retenu are a portion of what Vercoutter translates as Asia(tics) ('3mw), isn't applied to every land East to Egypt as tends to show that both East from Egypt located Mitanni and Ta Neter (Punt or Lebanon) aren't referred as being part of the place where live the '3mw. I definitely need to go through more texts to claim something definitive on this issue, but my personal opinion so far is that the '3mw was an culturo-linguistic appellation originally applied to Northwest Semitic speaking
nomads (as seems to point the fact that '3m means "person" in some NW Semitic languages as mentioned by alTakruri sometimes ago and that the meaning of the meaning of the reflex of pharaonic '3m (don't remember its phonic form) in Coptic is "shepherd" according to Vycichl 1983).

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^What you've noted Cotonou, just goes to show the dubious premise of the insertions of the terms "Asia" and "Asiatics" in the translations of the primary texts in question. Please don't hesitate to elaborate, once you've felt that you've gone through enough texts to make a definitive observation on what you've learnt.
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Evergreen
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The whole origin of Asiatic is built on the
misnomer SW Asia/Middle East/etc. If the
people there are Asians why aren't they
just called Asians? Why aren't Chinese
or Japanese called Asiatic?

The name makers know that aren't describing
a people of Asia, hence the roundabout way
of introducing Asia affiliation to things
African, i.e. Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
for a language spoken nowhere in Asia and
originating in north east Africa.

So why is Asia so prominently spelled out in
the terminology Afro-Asian/Afro-Asia/Afro-Asiatic
while Africa is only hinted at in the prefix?

Evergreen Writes:

Excellent post. This says it all.

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Yom
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quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:
Mystery Solver:
Hannig's handwörterbuch doesn't cite its sources, and I don't have access to much currently, so it will probably be tough for me right now to know from which context/cotext lexicologists gave the mentioned meanings in the above occurrences.

However, I'm currently reading Jean Vercoutter's article about the H3w Nbwt and some informations taken from it seemed relevant to me. For example, in Thutmose III's triumph hymn, Vercoutter reports that for poetic purposes, in each strophe referring to one people, a vague geographic designation was first used, followed by a more specific name, hence:
quote:

Strophe II:
I came, I made you take down those who are in Asia (...) you strike the heads of the Asiatics from Retenu

Strophe III:
I came and I made you take down the Eastern world (...) as well as trampling those who are in the districts of ta Neter


Strophe IV:
I came and I made you take down the Western world (...) The Keftiu and Cypriots are under your fear.

Strophe V:
I came and I made you strike thoses who are in their nbwt(...) Mitanni is shuddering under your fear.



What I can get from this , is that in this very text, Retenu are a portion of what Vercoutter translates as Asia(tics) ('3mw), isn't applied to every land East to Egypt as tends to show that both East from Egypt located Mitanni and Ta Neter (Punt or Lebanon) aren't referred as being part of the place where live the '3mw. I definitely need to go through more texts to claim something definitive on this issue, but my personal opinion so far is that the '3mw was an culturo-linguistic appellation originally applied to Northwest Semitic speaking
nomads (as seems to point the fact that '3m means "person" in some NW Semitic languages as mentioned by alTakruri sometimes ago and that the meaning of the meaning of the reflex of pharaonic '3m (don't remember its phonic form) in Coptic is "shepherd" according to Vycichl 1983).

First, let me say that you're one of the best posters on Egyptsearch, you always know the original texts.


`am (3am in the Arabic internet spelling) indeed has a meaning like "people" or "populace" in Semitic. E.g., Arabic "`am" means the "general populace" or something to that effect, and therefore "al-`amiyyah" is their language or "colloquial Arabic" (as opposed to al-fuS7a - classical arabic, literally), and in Ge'ez, a South Semitic language, `am has the meaning of "people."


Anyway, I wanted to ask about Tuthmose III's claim to have "trampl[ed] those who are in the districts of ta Neter." Do you have any more information about this or access to his list of foreign peoples? I know he names a number who are supposedly from PWNT, including the ḫbstjw, an incense-collecting people from Punt, but I also hear apparently it means the "bearded-ones," from ḫbst for "beard?" Note that ḫibist means "bread" in Ge'ez, and similar words have the same meaning in other Semitic languages.

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Djehuti
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^ Yom, this is a first I've heard of this. So Thutmose III was involved in some conflict against the people of Punt??
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Sabalour
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Sorry Mystery Solver, but thanks to the link below, I discovered that the name of the country that was mentioned before the mention of the '3mw was actually not related to '3mw, but was sTt, which is translated by Faulkner & Hannig as:

1)"Asia"
2)"the island of Seheel"...at the first cataract a bit norther than Aswan (not exactly in Asia, as you can see).

Other derived forms are sTtjw "Asiatics" and sTtj "Asiatic copper".

According to Hannig still, the phrasal construction mntjw m sTt means "Beduins from Asia".

I don't know about the two meanings of sTt "Asia" and "Sehel", but I guess it actually means a place in Asia rather than Upper Egypt in this text because of the mention of the '3mw from rTnw living there.

There seems to have been several populations living in sTt, the '3mw, the mnTw beeing some of them.

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Sabalour
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Thanks Yom for the 'am info!

Do you have an idea of what the Ancient Egyptian contemporary form Ethio-Semitic 'am would have sounded like? Is it consistent with the Egyptian '3m/Semitic 'am hypothesis?

Here is a French transliteration/traduction of the Tuthmosis III hymns:
http://perso.orange.fr/sylvie.griffon/textes/poetique/poetique.htm
The only possible mention of Puntites (don't know of which t3 ntr it is a reference to) in this text is that of the inhabitants of T3 Ntr, no mention of xbstjw in this very text, from what I've read.

The exhaustive list of mentioned places/people is the following:

1-wr.w(princes)Dhy (Syria?)
2-sTt/ '3mw nw(of) rTnw
3-t3 j3bty(eastern land)/ nty.w (those who are) m (in) w.w (regions) nw (of) t3-nTr
4-tA jmnty (Western Land)/kftjw & isy
5-jmy.w (inhabitants) nb.wt (?)/mTn (Mitanni?)
6-jm.yw(inhabitants) jw.w(islands)/W3D-wr (Uadj-ur "the great green", Sea?)
7-THn.w (Tehenu)/ jw.w (islands) wTnty.w (inhabitants of wTnt "place of origin of the sun, North-East of the Sun")
8-H3.t-t3 "beginning of the country)/Hryw Sa (those who are upon the sand (Beduins?)
9-Jwnty.w (etymologically archers)/S3.t (Sai island?)

Thanks for the xbstjw info too. I'll discuss it in the thread about Punt.

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Yom
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quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:
Thanks Yom for the 'am info!

Do you have an idea of what the Ancient Egyptian contemporary form Ethio-Semitic 'am would have sounded like? Is it consistent with the Egyptian '3m/Semitic 'am hypothesis?

Yes, pretty perfectly, if your AE transliteration is what I think it is. The ' represents guttural `ayin, right? Or this hieroglyph:  - ?

If so, it would be better to use ` or ˁ or ʿ or IPA (International phonetic alphabet) ʕ. The reason is that ' is more often used to represent the glottal stop or IPA ʔ, like in Arabic /lɑːʔ/ ("no") as opposed to Arabic /nɑʕɑm/ ("yes"). Or, consider English "uh-oh." The stop in between is the glottal stop (ʔuh-ʔoh - this isn't true IPA spelling, though).


The Arabic `am is IPA /ʕɑːmː/ (ː, or in Arabic script, عامّ. More accurately it could be spelled `aamm, since there's a long "a" and geminated (doubled length) m. Likewise in Ge'ez, the word is spelled ዓም, which would be IPA /ʕɑːm/. Gemination isn't marked in Ge'ez, so we can't know if the m would have been doubled, but it is not in traditional Ge'ez pronounciation.

In both cases, you can see that there's a long "a" in between the pharyngeal consonant `ayin, and the letter "m," aka mim/may (mim is Arabic, may is Ge'ez, the latter meaning water, and the former having a similar meaning, being from the Hebrew/Aramaic for waters, as you can see from the mimation = suffixed mim, which serves as a plural in Northern Northwest Semitic languages like Canaanite, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.).

This long "a" is equivalent to the Egyptian  - , which I believe is your "3." In fact, in Arabic (and many other alphabets designed for Semitic languages), the long "a" and glottal stop aren't differentiated.

So, if your transliteration is what I think it is, it fits impeccably. I'm surprised I hadn't noticed that, actually.

quote:
Here is a French transliteration/traduction of the Tuthmosis III hymns:
http://perso.orange.fr/sylvie.griffon/textes/poetique/poetique.htm
The only possible mention of Puntites (don't know of which t3 ntr it is a reference to) in this text is that of the inhabitants of T3 Ntr, no mention of xbstjw in this very text, from what I've read.

The exhaustive list of mentioned places/people is the following:

1-wr.w(princes)Dhy (Syria?)
2-sTt/ '3mw nw(of) rTnw
3-t3 j3bty(eastern land)/ nty.w (those who are) m (in) w.w (regions) nw (of) t3-nTr
4-tA jmnty (Western Land)/kftjw & isy
5-jmy.w (inhabitants) nb.wt (?)/mTn (Mitanni?)
6-jm.yw(inhabitants) jw.w(islands)/W3D-wr (Uadj-ur "the great green", Sea?)
7-THn.w (Tehenu)/ jw.w (islands) wTnty.w (inhabitants of wTnt "place of origin of the sun, North-East of the Sun")
8-H3.t-t3 "beginning of the country)/Hryw Sa (those who are upon the sand (Beduins?)
9-Jwnty.w (etymologically archers)/S3.t (Sai island?)

Thanks for the xbstjw info too. I'll discuss it in the thread about Punt.

Apparently ta-neter doesn't necessarily refer to Punt, and according to Abdel-Aziz Saleh (from the link you provided earlier), more often refers to the Levant, which would make more sense in this case.

As to the xbstjw, they appear along with many other names that have been tentatively connected to placenames in Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea in his "lists of foreign peoples." I haven't been able to get access to it, though. If you can, I would very, very, very much appreciate it.

I think I'll actually start a new Punt thread to be a be all and end all Punt thread to hold all the info we already have, or we can just use the one already posted, although it starts off uninformative.

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

Sorry Mystery Solver, but thanks to the link below, I discovered that the name of the country that was mentioned before the mention of the '3mw was actually not related to '3mw, but was sTt, which is translated by Faulkner & Hannig as:

1)"Asia"
2)"the island of Seheel"...at the first cataract a bit norther than Aswan (not exactly in Asia, as you can see).

Indeed, I see, and all the more reason the insertion of "Asia--tic" in the translation is quite dubious.


quote:
Originally posted by COTONOUOU_BY_NIGHT:

Other derived forms are sTtjw "Asiatics" and sTtj "Asiatic copper".

According to Hannig still, the phrasal construction mntjw m sTt means "Beduins from Asia".

Hannig translates "sTt" as "Asia", and "sTt +/- determinative" as things associated with this "Asia", but this is a very dubious premise. What evidence does Hannig or any like advocate have, about any concept of "Asia" in the Kemetic mindset? I highly question "sTt" to mean "Asia".


quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

I don't know about the two meanings of sTt "Asia" and "Sehel", but I guess it actually means a place in Asia rather than Upper Egypt in this text because of the mention of the '3mw from rTnw living there.

Questions:

Is "sTt" deemed by the said author to be either "Asia" or "Sehel"? Are these two separate entities deemed to share a single Kemetic term?

Is "Sehel", as you noted above, actually still within the confines of the Nile Valley territory? If so, how on earth does this have anything to do with "Asia"?

Just because the Aamu from "Retenu" happen to be living in a region, does this necessarily mean that the said region is actually in Asia; could the "Retenu" Aamu be immigrants living in a foreign territory - is that not possible?

^Example: A noticeable number of Mexicans reside in the US. Does this suddenly imply that a given US territory where these folks live, may actually be in Mexico?


quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

There seems to have been several populations living in sTt, the '3mw, the mnTw beeing some of them.

Where specifically do the said author(s) deem sTt to be; is this where "Sehel" is also located? If so, in which area therein? Is this attested to in primary Kemetic text; if so, where? Also, where are we told in Kemetic primary text, that the mnTw are also "Aamu"?

I've taken note of your posts on the Kemetic terminology "'3m", which has been compared above with Semitic "'am" denoting something to do with "people'. But is there attestation to Kemetic 'Aamu' meaning "people", "person" or "populace"? "Aamu" in Kemetic seems to be of a totally different stripe, with a relatively more concise *descriptive* application [better yet, as a *noun* whose meaning, it seems, can be modified by a determinative], which as far as I can tell, seems to have generally been used as a pejorative appellative of some sort.

The following Kemetic applications, which still need clarification, as my unanswered questions pertaining to them underly, don't jive well with the idea that "Aamu" is a synonym for the generic terms of "person", "populace" or "people", as "'am" in Semitic would indicate [as we are told above]:


-'3m Syrian **slave**
-'3m(y-n-sk3):keeper of the oxen waggon
-'3m(w nw Hrjw-S') Asiatic nomads
-'3m(w nw rTnw) Asiatics from Retjenu
- posted by Cotonou.

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Sabalour
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I hear your point Mystery Solver but my opinion was that '3m was an indigenous Semitic ethnonym AE would have borrowed from them, like k3S (Kush) for example.

Do you think the etymology would rather have something to do with the meaning of "slave" as suggested by Wally before?

The authors of the translations of the text above didn't mention Sehel as a possible translation, but lexicographers seem pretty confident about it meaning Sehel in some cases apparently.

Yom:
The "reed" symbol is usually transliterated by j, y, i (most likely a palatal semi-vowel). I know it is often considered as cognate with Semitic l (jb "heart", Semitic lVbb; jwn "color", Semitic lawn), but also with Semitic i.

Do you see a valid reason for Ancient NW Semitic speakers referring to themselves as '3mw, but not Ancient Ethio-Semitic speakers?

I promise I'll get the texts you both mentioned a month from now.

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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

I hear your point Mystery Solver but my opinion was that '3m was an indigenous Semitic ethnonym AE would have borrowed from them, like k3S (Kush) for example.

I understand that, and so, my point likewise, was the need to have a concise demonstration that supports this thesis.

In most occasions when a word is borrowed, its meaning comes with the word intact. So, if "Aamu" in Kemetic has any relation to "am" terminology in Semitic language, then the meaning of "Aamu" would narrowly parallel that of the language from which it was borrowed. The *various* contexts thus far provided for Kemetic Aamu don't reflect this.


quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

Do you think the etymology would rather have something to do with the meaning of "slave" as suggested by Wally before?

I don't know the precise meaning of the term "Aamu", but yes, from what I know of the term thus far, its appears to have been a pejorative appellative. I pressed for precision in meaning, by putting forth a number of questions herein, which have largely gone unanswered.


I have seen no evidence that "Aamu" referred to a polity, but then again, the people referred to as such on wall murals, seem to exhibit certain consistent characteristics about their facial appearance and head bands. If this were simply a generic term for just about anybody to the east of Egypt, then one would expect to see less consistency and relatively more diversity of the folks so-called. On other hand, if we were to take contemporary examples of appellatives that have become pejoratives of some sort, then this could prove insightful to a certain degree; take for instance the "illegal aliens" term: In its application in the US, when this term is blurted out in the media, the people that primarly come to mind, are Mexican immigrants. This is undoubtedly stereotyping. So while the term doesn't refer to a nationality and/or ethnicity, it does invoke a certain stereotypic image of a certain type of immigrant in the U.S., mostly coming from the U.S. southern border; the term has taken on the life of a pejorative as well. So, could "Aamu" in Kemetic have had such a connotation? Remains to be demonstrated.


quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

The authors of the translations of the text above didn't mention Sehel as a possible translation, but lexicographers seem pretty confident about it meaning Sehel in some cases apparently.

So, the authors themselves casually inserted the term "Asia/Asiatic", while upon further examination on your own, you noticed that the term "Sehel" was invoked?

In any case, the authors have yet to establish what is supposedly "Asiatic" in Kemetic term. I have seen no evidence yet, that the Kemetians had any concept of "Asia", let alone "Asiatic".


quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

I promise I'll get the texts you both mentioned a month from now.

Hey, anything which furthers our understanding on the topic, is always encouraged.
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:

quote:
Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

I hear your point Mystery Solver but my opinion was that '3m was an indigenous Semitic ethnonym AE would have borrowed from them, like k3S (Kush) for example.

I understand that, and so, my point likewise, was the need to have a concise demonstration that supports this thesis.

In most occasions when a word is borrowed, its meaning comes with the word intact. So, if "Aamu" in Kemetic has any relation to "am" terminology in Semitic language, then the meaning of "Aamu" would narrowly parallel that of the language from which it was borrowed. The *various* contexts thus far provided for Kemetic Aamu don't reflect this.

On another note, your example of "Kush" is interesting. What was the grammatic base of "Kush": was it a common noun or proper noun? I suppose, one can imagine the term "Aamu" as being another local derivative of some sort of pan-Semitic terminology of the "'am", wherein the term was simply incorporated after having been heard from people who spoke the Semitic languages in question. But here is something to think about: isn't it more likely that a reference to certain foreigners would be a proper noun designation of a certain known group, which would have invoked an 'archetype' for others in the regional entity or geography, that would take hold, rather than a common noun as in say, 'people', 'person' or 'population'? The Kemetians undoubtedly had their own terms for such types of words, and ones which would unlikely be replaced quickly by borrowed terms. One can perhaps see an example whereby, certain people in the little know don't realize that "Bantu" is actually a proper noun reference to a sub-Language family and not a common noun reference to "people" themselves, yet the terms is seized upon as a reference to "people" who fit a certain archetype in their mind. The same thing with "Congo", where by this "proper noun" is used by some intellectual lightweights as some sort of a common noun for certain people who fit a certain stereotype of their own making [that is, of the intellectual lightweights]. Rarely, is a "borrowed" *common* noun and/or of regular vocabulary used to designate a people, as far as I can recall. But perhaps, someone can assist in jogging up my memory.

In the meantime, it has to be remembered that regular common words used in most languages, are the least susceptible to change and hence, be replaced by borrowed terms.

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Bettyboo
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Asiatic means non-African.
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alTakruri
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I know this isn't the place to go into it but
baNtu doesn't originate as a word invented by
linguists.

Ttbomk, the word ba-Ntu does in fact mean "people,"
although true it does not mean any particular or even
generalized phenotype or physical type of people as it's
often misused to do.


quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:


One can perhaps see an example whereby, certain people in the little know don't realize that "Bantu" is actually a proper noun reference to a sub-Language family and not a common noun reference to "people" themselves, yet the terms is seized upon as a reference to "people" who fit a certain archetype in their mind.


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Obelisk_18
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quote:
Originally posted by Bettyboo:
Asiatic means non-African.

Well, no, Asiatic just meant a person who came from the Middle-east,
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Obelisk_18
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and didnt "aamu" also mean servant?
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Mystery Solver
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

I know this isn't the place to go into it but
baNtu doesn't originate as a word invented by
linguists.

In what language does it originate?


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Ttbomk, the word ba-Ntu does in fact mean "people,"
although true it does not mean any particular or even
generalized phenotype or physical type of people as it's
often misused to do.

I guess this would be an example where a generic term has been used as a reference to certain people fitting a certain archetype in the minds of some folks; so what specific language attests to this meaning?

I am under the impression that most of those "non-Bantu" speaking folks who use the term "Bantu" in the sense noted earlier, will not have been aware of its meaning. Many of these folks likely came across the term from its application as a *proper noun* in linguistic typology and/or its anthropological derivative thereof. That is a point, that I hope will not be obscured along the way.

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