...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Deshret » SET and the Indo-European Migrations (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: SET and the Indo-European Migrations
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Recently I discussed the fact that Blacks tend to have a greater trend toward brain symmetry or right brain asymmetry, while Whites tend to trend toward left brain asymmetry. The later is known as brain lateralization. The cause may be the ice-age adaptation in Europe. The lack of light may have had an impact on the calcification of the pineal gland and hence inhibited production of testosterone. The low levels of testosterone in turn may have caused left-brain lateralization. Other theories attribute the left-brain trend in Whites to overproduction of adrenanline during the ice-age. The left brain and right brain are asociated with the following trends, per Wiki:

Left brain functions
sequential
analytical
verbal
logical
linear algorithmic
counting/measurement
grammar/words

Right brain functions
simultaneous
holistic
imagistic
intuitive
holistical algorithmic
shapes/motions
intonation/emphasis

Certainly these differences only represent **TRENDS** and not absolutes. Some Whites have right-brain asymmetry and some Blacks have left-brain asymmetry. The absolutist concept of "Race" is non-scientific as humans overlap genetically. There are however trends that we should not consider taboo to recognize.

The Ancient Egyptians associated the Neter Set with evil and Red-Haired individuals. They also differentiated themselves by calling their country "The Land of the Black People". Similarly the Elamites were known as the Meluhha (associated with the word Melanin) and the people of Mohenjo-Darro with Kush (Black). Did these Black people begin to distinguish themselves and Whites both in terms of phenotype and culture because of the Indo-European migrations that took place circa ~ 1,500 BC and the behaviours they observed?

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Ancient Egyptians associated the Neter Set with evil and Red-Haired individuals. They also differentiated themselves by calling their country "The Land of the Black People".
^ Slight but important correction. The Ancient Egyptians referred to themselves as Blacks. Km.t [Rm.t].

In this reference Km.t is Black. Rm.t is people. There is no reference to 'land', at all.

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
The Ancient Egyptians associated the Neter Set with evil and Red-Haired individuals. They also differentiated themselves by calling their country "The Land of the Black People".
^ Slight but important correction. The Ancient Egyptians referred to themselves as Blacks. Km.t [Rm.t].

In this reference Km.t is Black. Rm.t is people. There is no reference to 'land', at all.

Thanks.
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru
Member
Member # 11484

Rate Member
Icon 14 posted      Profile for ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interesting topic. Ra Un Nefer Amen covered this in depth in his books "Medu Neter: Spiritual cultivation...".
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Evergreen

quote:



The Ancient Egyptians associated the Neter Set with evil and Red-Haired individuals. They also differentiated themselves by calling their country "The Land of the Black People". Similarly the Elamites were known as the Meluhha (associated with the word Melanin) and the people of Mohenjo-Darro with Kush (Black). Did these Black people begin to distinguish themselves and Whites both in terms of phenotype and culture because of the Indo-European migrations that took place circa ~ 1,500 BC and the behaviours they observed?



I don't think they called themselves Blacks in relation to the Indo-European speakers. These people did not come on the scene until after 1500 BC.

The only non-Black group around 2500 that I find mention of are the Gutians.


 -

Above we see Gutians from Lagash.

It appears to me that they called themselves Blacks because Blackness represented identification with the great beyond, i.e., the Universe is Black, therefore the creative spirit and knowledge incarnate must also be Black.

You have to understand that the Sumerians-Indus Valley-Egyptians were predominately part of the Maa Confederation. This confederation symbolized by the dragon/lizard/snake etc., came down from the mountains of Middle Africa and replaced the Seed People or Pygmy-Bushman folk who ruled the world before the great flood.

The great flood set in motion a series of migrations that placed a number of ethnic groups in competition for land and technology. The Kushites , members of the Maa Confederation due to their skill in navigation and boat building were the first folk to take advantage of the power vacumn left in the decline of Seed People power due to the flood.

The Kushites remained the dominant power between 3000-500 BC. After 2500 BC, Kushite power was being challenged in the Levant by the Gutians and Assyrians; the Assyrians also made successful in roads in Iran, but Kushites remained dominant here until after the fall of the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BC)(Persians); by 1400 we see the Indo-Europeans invading Europe and Egypt. After 1200 we see the Classical mongoloids (present-day Vienamese, Fillipinos and etc.) replacing the Kushite rulers in China.

The expansion of the Classical Mongoloid (Proto- Polynesian) people forced the Kushites to expand into the Pacific. These Africans after 1300 carried the Lapita culture to coastal near Oceania. They were in turn replaced by the Polynesian people.

This is why we find many mixed Near Oceanian Populations like the Fijians
 -

That's why we find some Fijians who look like Africans.
 -

 -

While other Fijians and Near Oceanians who live away from the coat look like the Australians.


 -

Australian

 -

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I don't think they called themselves Blacks in relation to the Indo-European speakers. These people did not come on the scene until after 1500 BC.

The only non-Black group around 2500 that I find mention of are the Gutians.

Evergreen Writes:

Good point. We would need to correlate the earliest historical mention of Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc. with the archaeological emergence of Indo-European groups from Central Asia in areas south of Central Area.

What are the earliest references to Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc?

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I don't think they called themselves Blacks in relation to the Indo-European speakers. These people did not come on the scene until after 1500 BC.

The only non-Black group around 2500 that I find mention of are the Gutians.

Evergreen Writes:

Good point. We would need to correlate the earliest historical mention of Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc. with the archaeological emergence of Indo-European groups from Central Asia in areas south of Central Area.

What are the earliest references to Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc?

The references to these nations appear in Egyptian, Sumerian and Akkadian text dating to the 3rd Millennium.


.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I don't think they called themselves Blacks in relation to the Indo-European speakers. These people did not come on the scene until after 1500 BC.

The only non-Black group around 2500 that I find mention of are the Gutians.

Evergreen Writes:

Good point. We would need to correlate the earliest historical mention of Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc. with the archaeological emergence of Indo-European groups from Central Asia in areas south of Central Area.

What are the earliest references to Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc?

The references to these nations appear in Egyptian, Sumerian and Akkadian text dating to the 3rd Millennium.
.

Can you please be more specific and provide the names of the texts you allude to?
Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Evergreen

quote:



The Ancient Egyptians associated the Neter Set with evil and Red-Haired individuals. They also differentiated themselves by calling their country "The Land of the Black People". Similarly the Elamites were known as the Meluhha (associated with the word Melanin) and the people of Mohenjo-Darro with Kush (Black). Did these Black people begin to distinguish themselves and Whites both in terms of phenotype and culture because of the Indo-European migrations that took place circa ~ 1,500 BC and the behaviours they observed?



I don't think they called themselves Blacks in relation to the Indo-European speakers. These people did not come on the scene until after 1500 BC.

The only non-Black group around 2500 that I find mention of are the Gutians.


 -

Above we see Gutians from Lagash.

It appears to me that they called themselves Blacks because Blackness represented identification with the great beyond, i.e., the Universe is Black, therefore the creative spirit and knowledge incarnate must also be Black.

You have to understand that the Sumerians-Indus Valley-Egyptians were predominately part of the Maa Confederation. This confederation symbolized by the dragon/lizard/snake etc., came down from the mountains of Middle Africa and replaced the Seed People or Pygmy-Bushman folk who ruled the world before the great flood.

The great flood set in motion a series of migrations that placed a number of ethnic groups in competition for land and technology. The Kushites , members of the Maa Confederation due to their skill in navigation and boat building were the first folk to take advantage of the power vacumn left in the decline of Seed People power due to the flood.

The Kushites remained the dominant power between 3000-500 BC. After 2500 BC, Kushite power was being challenged in the Levant by the Gutians and Assyrians; the Assyrians also made successful in roads in Iran, but Kushites remained dominant here until after the fall of the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BC)(Persians); by 1400 we see the Indo-Europeans invading Europe and Egypt. After 1200 we see the Classical mongoloids (present-day Vienamese, Fillipinos and etc.) replacing the Kushite rulers in China.

The expansion of the Classical Mongoloid (Proto- Polynesian) people forced the Kushites to expand into the Pacific. These Africans after 1300 carried the Lapita culture to coastal near Oceania. They were in turn replaced by the Polynesian people.

This is why we find many mixed Near Oceanian Populations like the Fijians
 -

That's why we find some Fijians who look like Africans.
 -

 -

While other Fijians and Near Oceanians who live away from the coat look like the Australians.


 -

Australian

 -

.

Clyde you are so ridiculous it is funny. There is no such thing as proto polynesian. The first Polynesian and Pacific Islanders were black and did not come from Kush. They came from aboriginal populations similar to those in New Guinea, who have been there for 30,000 years or more. There have been multiple waves of migrations since then, which have produced the features you see in Polynesia today.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Doug you don't know what you are talking about. Researchers contend that the first Polynesia probably originated either in Southeast Asia or Taiwan. If they originated in either of these locations they can not be the original population of outer Oceania, where most Polynesians live.

 -

quote:


Mitochondrial DNA provides a link between Polynesians and indigenous Taiwanese
5/7/05. By PLoS Biology

An analysis of mitochondrial DNA from nine Taiwanese tribes has revealed a genetic link between aboriginal Taiwanese and Polynesian populations, to the exclusion of mainland Asians.



According to folklore, Polynesians originated from a mythical homeland called Hawaiki. The existence of such a place, however, as well as its location, has been the subject of much speculation. Significant research efforts have attempted to elucidate these claims through archeological, linguistic, and, more recently, biological evidence.

Two main theories have previously emerged to explain the origins of modern day Polynesians: the 'express train' model and the 'slow boat' model. The express train model proposes that early ancestors migrated from mainland China and Southeast Asia, colonising Taiwan first and then spreading rapidly to the other Pacific Islands. The slow boat model assumes that Polynesian culture was influenced by gradual, complex interactions with neighboring islands before reaching Polynesia.

Genetic techniques involving mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) have been used to compare the genetic profiles of Polynesians with people from mainland China, Southeast Asia, and Taiwan. Mitochondria reside in the cell cytoplasm and contain separate DNA that is inherited only from the mother. This means that while a person's nuclear DNA comes from a large number of ancestors, mtDNA can be traced back to a single ancestor.

In theory, every person should have a copy of mtDNA identical to this original ancestor. In practice, this is not the case because random errors occur in the replication process. Different populations will experience mutations at different locations in their mtDNA, and these will be passed on to future generations. The result is that some groups of people will end up with mtDNA that is very different from another group. By comparing how much mtDNA different populations have in common, an ancestral relationship can be determined and dated.

Feature: Mitochondrial DNA and human history

Jean Trejaut and colleagues analysed DNA from people in China, Southeast Asia, Polynesia, and Taiwan. The authors focused specifically on the aboriginal populations of Taiwan, thought to be ancestors of today's Polynesians, and looked for unique genetic markers that occurred in the aboriginal people.

They then compared these markers to those found in mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, and other Southeast Asian peoples, and asked: do the aboriginal people of Taiwan have a common ancestor in mainland China, and if yes, how long ago? And do the aboriginal Taiwanese share a common ancestry with the Polynesians?

The geographic distribution of nine indigenous tribes of Taiwan

Although Taiwan is currently inhabited mainly by migrants of recent Chinese origin, this has not always been the case. Today, roughly 2 per cent of the inhabitants are direct descendents of the island's indigenous people and have a unique culture, language, and genetic makeup. And while the Chinese immigrants colonised Taiwan a mere 400 years ago, archeological records show that Taiwan may have been inhabited for the last 15 000 years.

The researchers found that the indigenous Taiwanese, Melanesian, and Polynesian populations share three specific mutations in their mtDNA that do not occur in mainland east Asian populations. Furthermore, they showed that there were enough different mtDNA mutations between the mainland Chinese population and the aboriginal Taiwanese to support the archeological findings suggesting a long period of habitation.

Taken together, these results suggest that Taiwanese aboriginal populations have genetically been isolated from mainland Chinese for 10 000 to 20 000 years, though the whereabouts of their origin in the Asian region is still unclear. These results also show that Polynesian migration most likely originated from people identical to the aboriginal Taiwanese.

The findings provide the first direct evidence for the common ancestry of Polynesians and indigenous Taiwanese, and suggest that Taiwan genetically belongs to that region of insular Southeast Asia that might have been the point from where Polynesians started their migration across the Pacific, followed by later cultures that developed from their descendents in east Indonesia and Melanesia. Further research will be necessary to accurately determine the origins of the aboriginal Taiwanese; however, these results are a step towards clarifying the origins of Polynesians.


Further reading
PLoS Biology synopsis : Mitochondrial DNA Provides a Link between Polynesians and Indigenous Taiwanese. PLoS Biol 2005 3(8): e281

Trejaut JA, Kivisild T, Loo JH, Lee CL, He CL, et al. (2005) Traces of Archaic Mitochondrial Lineages Persist in Austronesian-Speaking Formosan Populations. PLoS Biol 3(8): e247. Full text

.

web page


.


 -
.


quote:


Our study provides evidence for a dual genetic origin of Pacific Islanders in Asia and Melanesia. This is in agreement with the Slow Boat hypothesis of Polynesian origins (Kayser, Brauer et al. 2000) according to which Polynesian ancestors originated in Asia, moved eastward, and mixed extensively with local Melanesians before colonizing the Pacific Islands. Although dating methods revealed somewhat similar entries of NRY/mtDNA haplogroups into Polynesia, haplotype sharing suggests that haplogroups of Melanesian origin may have appeared earlier in Polynesia than those of Asian origin, although more extensive sampling in Melanesia is needed to confirm this observation. The striking difference observed here between Asian and Melanesian contributions to the paternal and maternal gene pool of Polynesians suggests an admixture bias toward more Melanesian men, perhaps as result of uxorilocal (matrilocal) residence and matrilineal descent in ancestral Polynesian society (Hage and Marck 2003). The identified east-west gradient in the frequency distribution of some NRY/mtDNA haplogroups suggests an increasing tendency for founder events as the more eastern islands were colonized and also implies that Pacific voyaging was regular rather than haphazard. The gradual west-to-east decrease of overall NRY/mtDNA diversity in addition to the frequency distribution of the Polynesian DYS385 triplication provide genetic evidence for a west-to-east settlement of Polynesia. Fiji has played a pivotal role in the history of Polynesia either by having had received an earlier migration wave from Melanesia or by subsequent intensive contacts with Melanesia. In order to differentiate between these scenarios, additional sampling between mainland New Guinea and Fiji (e.g., from the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, and New Caledonia) is needed. Based on the data presented here, Polynesians can be regarded as an admixed population (especially Fijians), although it should be pointed out that autosomal data are needed in addition to the Y/mtDNA data presented here for a more comprehensive estimate of Polynesian genetic admixture. Nevertheless, we predict that Polynesians should be of interest for admixture mapping of disease genes. For example, Polynesians have an extraordinarily high frequency of Type 2 diabetes (Zimmet et al. 1990), which may reflect past selection on genes involved in nutrition metabolism for a "thrifty genotype" (Neel 1962). Polynesians thus may prove of interest not only because of their fascinating history and extraordinary accomplishments in colonizing the Pacific but also from what we may learn about complex diseases that affect other populations.


web page


 -
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Clyde you are so ridiculous it is funny. The first Polynesian and Pacific Islanders were black and did not come from Kush. They came from aboriginal populations similar to those in New Guinea, who have been there for 30,000 years or more. There have been multiple waves of migrations since then, which have produced the features you see in Polynesia today.
correct. not sure what the point of Dr. Winters pictures is.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Clyde you are so ridiculous it is funny. The first Polynesian and Pacific Islanders were black and did not come from Kush. They came from aboriginal populations similar to those in New Guinea, who have been there for 30,000 years or more. There have been multiple waves of migrations since then, which have produced the features you see in Polynesia today.
correct. not sure what the point of Dr. Winters pictures is.
The point is that these are pictures of Polynesians.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok. (?)
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Clyde we just had a whole thread on the origins of the so-called Polynesians. Unfortunately, someone decided to remove it in the process of shuffling around the forum. Hopefully we will get it back. I know full well you saw it, but for some reason you choose to parrot outdated nonsense. Not to mention that thread also touched on the fact that the aboriginal Taiwanese and Filipinos were also black, but of course you seem to have a short memory.

Anyway, here are some Polynesians for you to Peruse:

Duke Kahanamoku Invented Surfing (for Westerners)
 -

 -

 -

Kiribati Islanders:

 -

Huahine Islands (part of French Polynesia)
 -

Tonga
 -

What you have in Polynesia is a mixture of the aboriginal populations that settled there thousands of years ago, followed by many waves of later migrants. It is also widely known (or not so widely obviously) that Hawaii's indigenous population is almost gone and by 2044 it is said that pure blood Hawaiians will be extinct. Most Hawaiians have less than 50% Hawaiian blood. Both Hawaii and Tahiti were depopulated due to European diseases, with many Filipinos and other groups brought to the Islands to work on the European plantations. That is what is the basis of the Polynesians you see today.

Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Evergreen Writes:

While the Polynesian picture spam is interesting, please answer the thread related question. What are the earliest references to Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc? Please provide specific sources.

--------------------
Black Roots.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Meluhhaites or Puntites of East Africa


(C) Clyde A Winters, Ph.D

The ancient Dravidian people lived in Kush. From here they spread
across Asia and Europe to found many important ancient civilizations,
including the Hrappan civilization of the Indus Valley.

The Mesopotamians applied the term Meluhha to ancient Kush and Punt, the
countries below and east of Egypt according to Samuel Noah Kramer, in The
Sumerians ( University of Chicago Press, 1963, pp.276-285). The Akkadians,
according to Kramer said that Meluhha was “the place of black men” (see
p.277) . Since the Sumerians were called the “black headed” people, the
reference to Meluhha as the land of the black man probably refers to
Kush-Punt as the original homeland of the Sumerians. This was also the
homeland of the Dravidans as supported by the discovery of similar styles
among the Kushites and Harappans.


Megalithic sites. The pottery from the Megalithic sites have Indus Valley
characters on them as noted by B.B. Lal.
The first mention of the Meluhha in Egyptian texts were written during
the rule of Ramses II letter to the Hittites (KUB III 52) where he mentions
that he was ending men of Meluhha to the Hittite royal court. During this
period and later periods Meluhha=Kashi (Kush).

In many text written by Esarhaddon and Assurbanipal the terms Kashi
and Meluhha interchange repeatedly (see: W.F. Albright, “Magan,Meluha and
the synchronism between Menes and Naram-Sim, The Journal of Egyptian
Archaeology, vol.7, pp.80-87). The Assyrians frequently referred to the
Meluhha as salmuti ‘black’. The Meluhhaites according to the inscriptions
of Sargon II (c. 712 BC) mention the “bowmen, chariots and horses of the
king of Meluhha”, together with the Egyptians fought the Assyrians in
Palestine.

Later the Assyrian king Assurbanipal of Assyria, noted in his
inscriptions that he “ marched against Magan (Egypt) and Meluhha (Kush) in
order to defeat the armies of Tarku (Taharqa), king of Egypt and Kush (D.
Potts, “The road to Meluhha”, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, 41(4)
(1982) pp.279-288).

Kramer believes that Dilmun was the name the Sumerians called the
Indus Valley. This name Dilmun~Dilmon could have been pronounced as
*teďmaň This view is supported by the fact that part India was called
Dilmun. An important part of North India-Pakistan is Saurastra. This was a
major center of Harappan civilization and the Brahmana Dravida (R.
Thapar,p.185-86).

The Harappans or Dilmunites often wore braids and a headband. The
braids and headband was a common feature of the Kushites.
The must significant evidence of the relationship between the
Meluhhaites and Harappans is the headband worn by the Harappan priest-king,
and the headbands worn by the Meluhhaites-Puntites recorded on the
Hatshepsut mission to Punt and the Kushite soldiers.

Egyptian Soldiers

In summary Meluhha was located in Africa. Meluhha would correspond to
the ancient African nations the Egyptians called Kush-Punt. Dilmun was
probably the name of the Indus Valley civilization. Since original home of
the Dravidians was Kush, it was natural that many of the Harappans wore
headbands and braids like their Kinsmen from Kush-Meluhha.

This view is supported by the place name located in Northern India in
Kathiawar. The fact that these areas were known as centers of the brahmana
Dravida support the view that the Dravidians founded the Indus Valley
civilization, and explains close relationship between Sumerian and Tamil,
since the original speakers of these languages formerly lived in Meluhha or
ancient Kush the home of the “black men” according to the Assyrians and the
Akkadians..

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
HistoryFacelift
Member
Member # 14696

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for HistoryFacelift     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It has always been a belief of mine and a general observation that blacks tend to be more creative, in terms of having a more right brained approach to the world, while whites seem to be a more analytical, left brained group.
This is the first time though, that I am hearing it referred to as "fact" according to the original poster.

I have also constituted this idea to a bias on the IQ test, which is supposedly designed to adhere to left and right brained functions, but in my view seem to favor the left brain.

Evergreen, do you mind citing your sources on such statements about the right and left brain activity among these populations?

Posts: 105 | From: Japan | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The date 4.8ky is very interesting. It is around this time that we find the rise of a number of Kushite tribes in the region: the Kassites, the Kaska and the Hattian tribes in Anatolia. It was probably these Kushite tribes that introduced the second wave of Eb3b1-M78 lineages into this region.


For example, the Elamites called themselves KHATAM, and their capital Susa:KUSSI. In addition, the Kassites, who occupied the central part of the
Zagros mountains were called KASHSHU. The Kushana, who help found the Meroitic civilization as discussed in chapter four, formerly occupied
Chinese Turkistan (Xinjiang) and the Gansu province of China.

The Kushites in Asia, as in Africa were known for their skill as bowmen :Steu , the name of the people of Ta-Seti.

The decipherer of the cuneiform writing of Mesopotamia, Rawlingson, said Puntites and Kushites were established in Asia. He found mention of Kushiya and Puntiya in the inscriptions of Darius. He also made it clear that the name Kush was also applied to southern Persia, India, Elam, Arabia, and Colchis (a part of southern Russia/Turkistan) in ancient times.

The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers
Kush. Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".

The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of
Kerma: Kusan.


.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Mitanni did not speak an Indo-European language. In Anantolia in addition to the Hatti, there were the Hurrians. The Hurrians enter Mesopotamia from the northeastern hilly area . They introduced horse-drawn war chariots to Mesopotamia .

Hurrians penetrate Mesopotamia and Syria-Palestine between 1700-1500 BC. The major Hurrian Kingdom was Mitanni, which was founded by Sudarna I (c.1550), was established at Washukanni on the Khabur River. The Hurrian capital was Urkesh, one of its earliest kings was called Tupkish.

Linguistic and historical evidence support the view that Dravidians influenced Mittanni and Lycia. (Winters 1989a) Alain Anselin is sure that Dravidian speaking peoples once inhabited the Aegean. For example Anselin (1982, pp.111-114) has discussed many Dravidian place names found in the Aegean Sea area.

Two major groups in ancient Anatolia were the Hurrians and Lycians. Although the Hurrians are considered to be Indo-European speakers, some Hurrians probably spoke a Dravidian language.

The Hurrians lived in Mittanni. Mittanni was situated on the great bend of the Upper Euphrates river. Hurrian was spoken in eastern Anatolia and North Syria.

Most of what we know about Hurrian comes from the Tel al-Armarna letters. These letters were written to the Egyptian pharaoh. These letters are important because they were written in a language different from diplomatic Babylonian.

The letters written in the unknown language were numbered 22 and 25. In 1909 Bork, in Mitteilungen der Vorderasiatische Gesellschaft, wrote a translation of the letters.

In 1930, G.W. Brown proposed that the words in letters 22 and 25 were Dravidian especially Tamil. Brown (1930), has shown that the vowels and consonants of Hurrian and Dravidian are analogous. In support of this theory Brown (1930) noted the following similarities between Dravidian and Hurrian: 1) presence of a fullness of forms employed by both languages; 2) presence of active and passive verbal forms are not
distinguished; 3) presence of verbal forms that are formed by particles; 4) presence of true relative pronouns is not found in these languages; 5) both languages employ negative verbal forms; 6) identical use of -m, as nominative; 7) similar pronouns; and 8) similar ending formations:
  • Dravidian Hurrian
    a a
    -kku -ikka
    imbu impu

There are analogous Dravidian and Hurrian terms:
  • English Hurrian Dravidian
    mountain paba parampu
    lady,woman aallay ali
    King Sarr,zarr Ca, cira
    god en en
    give tan tara
    to rule irn ire
    father attai attan
    wife,woman asti atti

Some researchers have noted the presence of many Indo-Aryan words. In Hurrians. This has led some researchers to conclude that Indo –Europeans may have ruled the Hurrians. This results from the fact that the names of the Hurrian gods are similar to the Aryan gods:
  • Hurrian Sanskrit
    Mi-it-va Mitra
    Aru-na Varuna
    In-da-ra Indra
    Na-sa-at-tiya Nasatya
There are other Hurrian and Sanskrit terms that appear to show a relationship:
  • English Hurrian Sanskrit Tamil
    One aika eka okka ‘together’
    Three tera tri
    Five panza panca ańcu
    Seven satta sapta
    Nine na nava onpatu
Other Hurrian terms relate to Indo-Aryan:
  • Enlglish Hurrian I-A Tamil
    Brown babru babhru pukar

    Grey parita palita paraitu ‘old’

    Reddish pinkara pingala puuval

    English Mitanni Vedic Tamil

    Warrior marya marya makan, maravan

Although researchers believe that the Hurrians-Mitanni were dominated by Indo-Aryans this is not supported by the evidence. Bjarte Kaldhol found that only 5 out of 500 Hurrian names were I-A sounding .

The linguistic evidence discussed above is consistent with the view that the only Indian elements in Anatolian culture were of Dravidian ,rather than Indo-Aryan origin. This evidence from Mittanni adds further confirmation to the findings of N. Lahovary in Dravidian Origins and the West, that prove the earlier presence of Dravidian speakers in Anatolia.


.

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The date 4.8ky is very interesting. It is around this time that we find the rise of a number of Kushite tribes in the region: the Kassites, the Kaska and the Hattian tribes in Anatolia. It was probably these Kushite tribes that introduced the second wave of Eb3b1-M78 lineages into this region.


For example, the Elamites called themselves KHATAM, and their capital Susa:KUSSI. In addition, the Kassites, who occupied the central part of the
Zagros mountains were called KASHSHU. The Kushana, who help found the Meroitic civilization as discussed in chapter four, formerly occupied
Chinese Turkistan (Xinjiang) and the Gansu province of China.

The Kushites in Asia, as in Africa were known for their skill as bowmen :Steu , the name of the people of Ta-Seti.

The decipherer of the cuneiform writing of Mesopotamia, Rawlingson, said Puntites and Kushites were established in Asia. He found mention of Kushiya and Puntiya in the inscriptions of Darius. He also made it clear that the name Kush was also applied to southern Persia, India, Elam, Arabia, and Colchis (a part of southern Russia/Turkistan) in ancient times.

The Armenians made it clear that the ancients called Persia, Media,Elam Aria, and the entire area between the Tigris and Indus rivers
Kush. Bardesones, writing in his Book of the Laws of Countries, in the 2nd Century said that the "Bactrians who we called Qushani (or Kushans)".

The Armenians, called the earlier Parthian: Kushan and acknowledged their connection with them. Homer, Herodotus, and the Roman scholar Strabo called southern Persia AETHIOPIA. The Greeks and Romans called the country east of
Kerma: Kusan.

Evergreen Writes:

All of this, yet you have still failed to answer my basic question:

What are the earliest references to Kemet, Kush, Kish, Meluhha, etc? Please provide specific sources.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HistoryFacelift:
It has always been a belief of mine and a general observation that blacks tend to be more creative, in terms of having a more right brained approach to the world, while whites seem to be a more analytical, left brained group.
This is the first time though, that I am hearing it referred to as "fact" according to the original poster.

Evergreen Writes:

Actually what you state above is **not** a fact. The evidence indicates that Whites tend to trend toward left-brain assymetry while Blacks tend to trend toward **SYMMETRY** or right-brain assymetry. Subtle, yet very important distinction from what you claim I said.

quote:
Originally posted by HistoryFacelift:
Evergreen, do you mind citing your sources on such statements about the right and left brain activity among these populations?

Evergreen Writes:

I reiterate, Blacks trend toward brain **symmetry** or right-brain assymetry.

SOURCES:

- Australasian Radiology (1999) 43, 321-324
- The Journal of Nervious and Mental Disease Vol. 172, # 9

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HistoryFacelift:
...whites seem to be a more analytical, left brained group.

Evergreen Writes:

Of interest is the fact that the word analytical shares a common eytmological basis with the word anus. When one is in fear one clinches the anus. The diminishment of right-brain functionality (intuition, etc) may be a source of Western Man's anxiety (fear). Compare Freuds "A Phylogenic Fantasy" to Malcom Gladwells "Blink". His response mechanism could have caused him to rely more heavily on the left-brain and dissolution oriented thought-patterns. Instead of seeing the world in a holistic way he deconstructs things to learn of the nature of things.

As he came down through the Caucus Mountains and interacted with the Black Civilizations of the southern cradle he would naturally **distinguish** himself from the Black people because of his left-brain orientation. Hence, soon after melanin based caste systems may have been established by these war-like, charriot-riding invaders.

Our ancestors may be telling us something through the association of the archetype - Set.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Relationship between Corpus Callosum Size and Forebrain Volume

Jäncke et. al

Cerebral Cortex Jan/Feb 1997;7:48–56

"In this case our study would indicate that the degree of interhemispheric connectedness decreases with increasing human brain size. This would concur with theoretical predictions made by Ringo and co-workers (Ringo, 1991; Ringo et al., 1994). They argued that as brain size is scaled up there must be a fall in interhemispheric connectivity, due to the increasing time constraints of transcallosal conduction delay. Consequently, functionally related neuronal elements would cluster in one hemisphere, so that increasing brain size would be the driving force in the phylogeny of hemispheric specialization. With regard to callosal connectivity, our morphometric data may provide first empirical support of this conjecture. It should be investigated whether findings of apparent gender differences in the asymmetry of higher-order cerebral functions may also be confounded by brain size."

Brain Volume in Autism

Hardan et. al.

Journal of Child Neurology / Volume 16, Number 6, June 2001

"Increased brain size has been observed in individuals with autism with a wide range of cognitive functioning. The purpose of this investigation was to obtain measurements of the brain volume in a sample of nonmentally retarded autistic individuals. Magnetic resonance imaging scans from 16 nonmentally retarded individuals with autism and 19 male volunteer comparison subjects were obtained and the following structures were measured: third, fourth, and lateral ventricles and intracranial and cerebral volumes. Mean cerebral and third ventricle volumes in the autistic subjects were significantly greater than in the controls when adjusted for intracranial volume. No other significant results were found. Our finding of
increased brain volume in autism is consistent with previous reports in the literature. Additional longitudinal neuroimaging and, more importantly, neuropathologic studies are warranted to provide a better understanding of the complexities underlying increased brain size in autism."

Is there a link between engineering and autism?

Baron-Cohen et al.

Autism, 1997, 1, 153-163

"There thus seems to be a small but statistically significant link between autism and engineering. We wish to stress however that the majority of engineers have no connection with autism, and the majority of parents of autism have no connection with engineering. Nevertheless, this link between the two phenomena merits further research. The results of this study fit predictions from Domain Specificity theory, as applied to autism. The current results might also help explain why a condition like autism persists in the gene pool: the very same genes that lead an individual to have a child with autism can lead to superior functioning in the domain of folk physics."

Evergreen Writes:

Of interest when you consider the left-hemisphere focus of autistic individuals. We can also observe the possible impact of Ice Age Europe and the lack of direct sunlight in the modern Black North-American community where Vitamin D related autism may be on the rise.

This of course takes us back to the debate a few months ago on *how* intelligence is defined and measured. Is it measured soley by logic? Does the appropriate measure of intelligence (if one can be found) use a more synergistic/holistic model?

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To Clyde and Doug, I thought it was already made clear in the unfortunately now vanished Pacific Ancestry thread that Polynesian peoples are populations of mixed ancestries-- Having largely black aboriginal lineages.

 -

To Thought, as far the the original topic of this thread, again I find it disturbingly akin to racial science practiced by white racialists and Eurocentrics. And what it has to do with the Egyptian neter Set is also somewhat silly.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
To Thought, as far the the original topic of this thread, again I find it disturbingly akin to racial science practiced by white racialists and Eurocentrics. And what it has to do with the Egyptian neter Set is also somewhat silly.

Evergreen Writes:

Djehuti, your accusation of "racial science" is a personal attack on my credibility. Furthermore and worse, it is an unsubstantiated attack.

What is "racial science" and how do you link your definition of "racial science" to the topic of this thread? Instead of vague attacks please provide specific and data-driven analysis or at least a position or theory.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would describe your attempts to 'explain' Indo European behavior in terms of the penal gland and brain aysemmetry as biological determinism.

Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually it is based on a sociology and history as seen in the wisdom and symbolism of ancient Egypt. MAN makes god in his own image. That is the tradition and reflects the fact that the socioeconomic and political dominance of a nation or peoples can only be established through a coherent belief in the right to rule of the nation or people in question. You have to see yourself in the images of the gods in order to establish your right to rule . Historically, much of this form of socio religious political and national identity came from Egypt. Along with it was the identification, by the Egyptians, of themselves with the black earth, the black seed and the original black man of Africa.

This concept was so obvious overwhelming and powerful that it was adopted by those from outside Africa as Christianity and Islam. These religions sought (and still seek) to establish the domination of one ethnic group over others through the religion that establishes a right to rule for themselves, by which others do not question their inherent claims to greatness, glory and empowerment because of psychological indoctrination into the religion. This also allows these people to then go forth in the name of the right to rule and conquer others, cloaking their injustices and oppression under the cloak of freedom, progress, democracy and religion. But in all actuality it is just an empire built on greed and aiming to become the permanent new Reich on earth, controlling and dominating all others worldwide.

Again, the idea of Set is symbolic and represents any people, nation or event that is a threat to the black nation or KMT, where the black nation is symbolized by the black seed of the black earth and the trinity of (black) man woman and child, the basis of the nation. This is inherently political, anthropological, ethnic, nationalistic and economic all in one.

Therefore, the actions of those who wish to build a national identity and culture for themselves ON TOP of everyone else MUST DESTROY THOSE who seek independence and greatness for themselves. They ALSO must destroy and denigrate the image of the black man, woman and child as they are the original seed of the earth, mother nature, father earth and the risen sun. Hence, every white civilization that has come down the pike has been inherently against the rise of the black nation both symbolically and literally as a threat to their very existence and way of life.

As posted elsewhere:

Actually, Scorpion is correct. Racist industrial nationalist white supremacists are only doing what they believe is best to maintain themselves and their interests. They are against the black seed and black madonna and will do everything to destroy the black man, the black family and black national identity. The whole irony here is that white supremacy is based on knowledge, traditions and customs that originated IN AFRICA among black people.

The first place to identify with the black madonna or black mother of the earth was Africa and evidence for such is found in Egypt. In Egyptian cosmology, the Nile was the connection to the mound of creation, through the life giving black soil, which was the mud or clay from which god made mankind. This symbolic connection was reinforced through the national identity of the nation itself, which reflected the people and their connection to Africa. After times of crisis or periods of foreign control, the new dynasties always portrayed the new queens and kings in black, representing the replenishment and restoration of the nation, the people and the culture from the South. The concept of the black madonna comes from the various trinities that developed around the sacred mound of creation, which was always a central feature in most temples, within the holy of holies. During sacred processions and festivals, these symbols of man, woman and child and hope for eternal life through the seed or risen "son" (sun), were paraded throughout the surrounding area.

Within this trinity, the male represented Geb, Min or Osiris, who are symbolic of the seed of the earth the ithyphallic representation of male reproduction and semen. The woman is symbolic of mother nature, nurturing and child birth, often symbolized by a golden yellow color representing nature itself and the sky. This symbolism is seen in Nut who takes the seed from Geb the earth and gives birth to new life through pollination, by spreading the seed through the winds of the earth and bringing forth new flowers. These flowers represent the risen birth and new life that is victorious over death and darkness, hence this is Heru, the hero, the one who conquers the darkness and avenges the death of father earth, at the hands of desertification and the season of dryness. Therefore, the king and queen became symbolic of the renewal of the black nation, the health of the people and their wealth and prosperity as tied to the management of the seed(agriculture) and the distribution of food, water and manufactured products (industry). All of these festivals involved carrying palms, various types of flowers, trees and bushes all symbolic of the risen earth, the royal family and the life of the country, symbolized by the gods. Examples of such trinities are Ausar, Auset and Heru; Mut, Amun, Khonsu;Satis, Khnum, Anuket; and Sopdet, Sah and Soped.


quote:

The Festival of the Fertility god Min

This festival also opened a new season and was carried out in the ninth civil month, although its date was set according to the moon. It is perhaps not surprising that this fertility ritual is also known from Egypt's most distant past, though most of what we know of the festival is from sources that date from the New Kingdom onward.

In this celebration, the king cut the first sheaf of grain, which symbolically supported his role as life-sustainer of his people. It should be noted that this festival, associated with Min, was clearly one of fecundity and the virility of rebirth, and therefore the third festival of the year focusing on birth, with the agricultural aspect predominating.


Beautiful Feast of the Valley

Another annual event for Egyptians to look forward to was again centered in Thebes, allowed the living to commune with their loved ones in the afterworld. It was held in the tenth civil month. Though the celebration can be traced back to the Middle Kingdom, it became important during the New Kingdom.

The festivities began at Karnak temple on the east bank where the sacred image of the god Amun was placed atop a ceremonial boat and carried down to the Nile by the priests, very similarly to how it occurred in the Opet Festival. Eventually, the image of the god Amun was accompanied by the images of his wife Mut and their child, Khonsu.

At the riverside, the shrines were loaded onto barges and towed across the Nile to the west to visit the pharaoh’s mortuary temple and the temples of other gods. This journey was attended by a very joyous and colorful procession of Egypt’s citizens. Acrobats and musicians entertained the masses of people who participated, while women played sistrums—a kind of rattle instrument that made a soft jangling sound like the breeze blowing through papyrus reeds. This sound was said to soothe the gods and goddesses.

The procession ended at the necropolis that was filled with tomb chapels where the ancient people honored their dead relatives by performing various rituals for them. Every family wealthy enough to afford a chapel entered the sanctuary and made offerings of food and drink for their dead. (Archaeologists have uncovered many offering tables and bowls that you can see in any major museum collection.) The celebrants themselves ate heartily and drank a lot of wine until they entered what was believed to be an altered state (including intoxication) that made them feel closer to their departed loved ones.

Though certainly different in many ways, these private affairs parallel some present customs of modern Egypt and other cultures in which people celebrate a holiday on the grass of cemeteries in which their dead ancestors are buried.

 -

 -

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/festival.htm


A good example of all of this can be seen in the early kings of the 11th and 18th dynasty. Mentuhotep 1st surrounded himself by women from the south, whom many European scholars have identified as being negresses and painted black. Some of them may have indeed come from the region of modern day Ethiopia. He initiated the construction of a mortuary complex in Dier el-Bahri and built many temples at Aswan. The connection between the two sites is symbolic. His mortuary complex was either topped with a mound of earth and trees or a pyramid, both of which represent the mound of creation. His temples at Aswan were a celebration of the primordial mound of the black earth, which is the symbolic connection of Egypt to inner Africa, through the Nile and the black soil and black man of the soil.
And he surrounded himself with black women who were priestesses of hathor symbolizing the mother of the new king and the suckling of the child and the black mother of the earth, the black Madonna. It is clear here that the black woman and the black seed of the earth represent the (re)birth of the nation in Egyptian cosmology. (make note of this for later)

Mentuhotep representing the risen seed of the earth suckling on Hathor(mother nature):
 -
From: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2222972630&size=l

Black queeens, princesses and consorts from the time of Mentuhotep:

quote:

Henhenit: She was the wife of Mentuhotpe II and was buried in a vast mortuary complex of the King at Deir El-Bahri.
Neferu: She was the Chief wife of Mentuhotpe II.
Kawit: She was a royal companion of Mentuhotpe II. Her royal tomb contains beautiful and elaborate scenes of her toilet rituals! Her sarcophagus describes her as the "Sole Favorite of the King".
Tem: She was a wife of Mentuhotpe II and believed to be the mother of Mentuhotpe III. Her tomb is one of the largest female grave sites ever found.The sarcophagus in her burial chamber was made of alabaster and sandstone.
Sadek:She was a lesser wife of Mentuhotpe II.
Ashait: She was a wife of Mentuhotpe II. She was buried with the King in his eleborate mortuary complex at Deir El-Bahri. Her tomb reliefs identify her as an Ethiopian. On her coffin, there was a beautiful hymn inscribed about the four winds which were brought to Egypt by mythical maidens.
Nubkhas: She was a consort of Mentuhotpe II. Her tomb was discovered at Deir El-Bahri enclosed by boulders and rubble, probably the result of a landslide in ancient times.
Kemsit: She was a royal companion of Mentuhotpe II. She was buried in the Kings' mortuary complex and was described on her sarcophagus as 'Sole Favorite of the King" she shared this title with many other consorts that were buried there.
Neferukayt: She was a wife of Mentuhotpe II and the daughter of Princess Nebt who was the heiress of the Elephantine (an island in the Aswan). She was a highly educated woman and kept and extensive library of papyri and artworks in a huge museum.Imi:In some records, she is called Yem. She was a wife of Mentuhotpe III and the mother of his son, Mentuhotpe IV.
Amunet: In some records she is also called Amuniet. She was a consort of Mentuhotpe II, and was buried in his royal mortuary complex at Deir El-Bahri.

From: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/Egyptqueenslist.html


Now all of this symbolism of the black madonna became Isis, which was carried into Europe by the Romans. This became the foundation of the Christian church. In Europe, the contact with Africa and older cultures of the Mediterranean meant that many of the older traditions of Isis and the trinities of the Nile are preserved in European traditions. Many of these are found in Spain, France and Italy. Spain is notable because Spain's traditions are based heavily on the historic interaction with cultures from Africa and the East.

quote:

Although Negro freedmen and slaves lived on the fringe of Sevillian life socially and economically, they enjoyed full membership in the church. True religious conversion among newly baptized Negroes was unusual, but by the second generation many had become sincere and pious Christians. The very willingness of Negroes to become Christians and to remain faithful to their new religion facilitated their popular acceptance. In addition, their incorporation into the social and ritual activities of the church accelerated the process of their Hispanization. Through their parish churches and their confraternities slaves and freedmen took part in all the city-wide religious celebrations of the period. The Negro and mulatto brotherhoods marched in full regalia in the many religious processions, including those of Holy Week. On one such occasion, the dress and the insignias of the Negro brotherhood were [189] so elaborate and costly as to draw censure from the clergy. In another instance, according to the chronicler Ortiz de Zúńiga, a member of the Negro confraternity sold himself as a slave in order to cover the high cost of his group's participation in a religious festival. Negro performers also took part in the autos connected with the festival of Corpus Christi. In 1590 the city government paid eight ducats to Leonor Rija, a mulatto, to appear on a float in the Corpus Christi celebration and to sing, dance, and play the guitar, together with four other mulatto women and two men.

From: http://libro.uca.edu/aristocrats/aristocrats4-2.htm

Holy Week Procession in Spain (note the Moorish garb and the obvious similarities to the images of the dieties (black madonna, holy family/trinity and risen son) as seen in Egypt):

 -

 -

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Week_procession

Such traditions are a continuation of the traditions concerning the national identity of the people through the religious symbols of the land and the institution of kingship. This connection was not lost on the upper classes and was a reason why such festivals and processions were important to solidifying and maintaining the control of the monarchy and political system over the people. Again, this reflects the idea of the seed and life as being the basis of the national identity of the country. But again, the much of the eastern origin of this tradition was not lost on the members of the higher echelons of the guilds and confraternities created among the various rulers and elite in European society. But of course they had to twist the origins and cover it up in order to reinforce their rule. In fact they had to destroy that which they feared most.

And thus it comes full circle. The symbolism and garb of these European societies gave rise to the secret Masonic orders and guilds that became dominant in Europe and America. Part of the traditions of these groups is the racism that stems from the desire to REVERSE the historical truth of the black man and woman and the impact of blacks on world history. In fact, these societies endeavored to create a world wide system that would reinforce and mold a new identity based on white supremacy and the destruction of the seed of the earth, the black man and woman, the black family and erase the hopes for the re birth of the black nation. This laid the foundation for the birth of the nation based on white supremacy, which is always centered around the fear of the black mans seed from taking root and growing the black nation, which is inherently a threat to white supremacy and an identity based on white nationalism. This is the seminal moment for the reinforcing the goals of white nationalism in America, which aimed to turn back the rise of blacks after the civil war, by creating a social system of white supremacy to keep blacks from building a nation for themselves. It is also symbolic as birth of a nation is an inherent reference to the ancient symbolism of the black madonna and the birth of the black seed and black nation Kmt. The garb and symbolism reflects this ancient legacy, which came from blacks, but not ironically, was being used to destroy blacks. This of course became the basis of the identification of the black male sex organ as a symbol of the biggest threat to the white nation.
Hence, America and Europe became the arch enemy of black National consciousness all over the world, as they sought to mold the national, cultural and economic identity of civilization world wide into one that reinforced the right to rule of whites over all others, while seeking out and destroying the black seed of the earth, the original black man, wherever he was found on the planet.

Of course the whole idea that these secret guilds worship the anti christ is because they are willing to kill the "risen sun" and manna of heaven grown from the seed of the black earth and earth mother, the black Madonna. But this is all an extreme form of racist nationalism that gives rise to all the "isms" in Europe. It also represents an attitude that is ANTI life and ANTI freedom and prosperity in its most extreme form and a threat to all life on the planet. LITERALLY.

The absurdity and silliness of all of this is that the greatest symbols of white supremacy COME FROM BLACK FOLKS and are an INHERENT reflection of the wisdom of ancient black Africans. Note the cross in a circle on the Klansman's robe is another ancient symbol from KMT, which symbolized the black Nation. Yet here you have it as a symbol of white supremacy. This and many other symbols, including the dress, are taken directly from blacks.

 -
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

Egyptian symbol for village or town with crossroads and the nation:

 -
From: http://hieroglyphicsonline.com/Flash_Cards.html

This is the most potent threat to white supremacy(which becomes SET personified):

The regrowth and regeneration of the black nation from the seed of the black earth along with the peace, prosperity and plenty for its people.
 -
From: http://www.flickr.com/photos/manna4u/sets/72157600115942057/

Set being death, destruction, famine, war and hunger and the obliteration of the black seed.

Bottom line it is all about a national identity, power and control over the minds of the people and establishing the right to rule among the masses.

Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Set being death, destruction, famine, war and hunger and the obliteration of the black seed.
^ Remembering also that Set was originally a southern diety.

Even Set's identification as Red Devil and eventual affiliation with Asiatics may have been a form of appropriation, not unlike the Greeks with their Isis, become Black Madonna.

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
[QUOTE]Set being death, destruction, famine, war and hunger and the obliteration of the black seed.

quote:
Originally posted by Evergreen:
[QUOTE] His response mechanism could have caused him to rely more heavily on the left-brain and dissolution oriented thought-patterns.

.....

Our ancestors may be telling us something through the association of the archetype - Set.

Evergreen Writes:

Indeed, in many ways Set was the archetype of dissolution and destruction.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Set being death, destruction, famine, war and hunger and the obliteration of the black seed.
^ Remembering also that Set was originally a southern diety.

Even Set's identification as Red Devil and eventual affiliation with Asiatics may have been a form of appropriation, not unlike the Greeks with their Isis, become Black Madonna.

I thought Isis was Egyptian.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Right. My point is that Isis goes from being African to Greek to Christian.

Set goes from being a southern Kemetic God to a God of the Delta, to and Asiatic God.

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Absolutely.

And along with it, the tradition of "mystery plays", "tragedies" and "passion" plays with it.

Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
I would describe your attempts to 'explain' Indo European behavior in terms of the penal gland and brain aysemmetry as biological determinism.

Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior

Evergreen Writes:

Your 'definition' of Biological Determinism seems innaccurate. What is the source for the 'definitiion' you use above?

Also please explain why you believe my thread contains elements of biological determinism. Please provide specific quotes from me that support your assertion.

My sense is this topic is taboo and anti-PC to some of more left-leaning members of our forum. We have to challenge the absolutism of the racialists and the PC theories of the relativists. To claim that biology has no impact on human behaviour is innaccurate. Biology is one factor that impacts human behaviour. Nurture/culture is another. Humans also have free will and this is a strong contributing factor if not the strongest.

To drill-down in one area in no way implies that I am suggesting that this one area is the only factor. I asummed that I didn't have to 'dumb-down' my posts to explain this?

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Set goes from being a southern Kemetic God to a God of the Delta, to and Asiatic God.

Evergreen Writes:

And this is really the point of this thread. Why and how did Set go from being a Upper Egyptian archetype (not GOD) of destruction/decomposition to an "Asiatic God"? The Egyptians seem to have generated a strong positive association between "Asiatic" invaders, evil/destruction and the archetype of Set.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think that the Asiatics became the EMBODIMENT of Set, which meant that they were the EMBODIMENT of chaos, destruction, desertification, famine and hunger in the land. It is both symbolic and nationalistic in the assignment to Asiatics. It is also possible that they took this mantle upon themselves as a way to reinforce fear and their power and dominion over the Egyptians. Remember it is something like a symbol of state. Heru and the like represents Upper Egypt and the native Kings of the South. Set represents Lower Egypt and the (sometimes) foreign kings of the North. Of course they were at odds. This is what the symbolism came to represent, which is any threat to the political and economic stability of the lands, unified under the kings from the south.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Mesopotamians applied the term Meluhha to ancient Kush and Punt, the countries below and east of Egypt according to Samuel Noah Kramer, in The Sumerians ( University of Chicago Press, 1963, pp.276-285). The Akkadians, according to Kramer said that Meluhha was “the place of the black men” (see p.277) . Since the Sumerians were called the “black headed” people, the reference to Meluhha as the land of the black man probably refers to Kush-Punt as the original homeland of the Sumerians.

Naram-sin traded with Meluhha

 -


The first mention of the Meluhha in Egyptian texts were written during the rule of Ramses II letter to the Hittites (KUB III 52) where he mentions that he was sending men of Meluhha to the Hittite royal court. During this period and later periods Meluhha=Kashi (Kush).

Assurbanipal
 -

In many text written by Esarhaddon and Assurbanipal the terms Kashi and Meluhha were interchange repeatedly (see: W.F. Albright, “Magan,Meluha and the synchronism between Menes and Naram-Sim, The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol.7, pp.80-87).

The Assyrians frequently referred to the Meluhha as salmuti ‘black’. The Meluhhaites according to the inscriptions of Sargon II (c. 712 BC) mention the “bowmen, chariots and horses of the king of Meluhha”, together with the Egyptians fought the Assyrians in Palestine. Later the Assyrian king Assurbanipal of Assyria, noted in his inscriptions that he “ marched against Magan (Egypt) and Meluhha (Kush) in order to defeat the armies of Tarku (Taharqa), king of Egypt and Kush (D. Potts, “The road to Meluhha”, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, 41(4) (1982) pp.279-288).

Meluhhaite Warriors in the Egyptian Army
 -

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
I think that the Asiatics became the EMBODIMENT of Set, which meant that they were the EMBODIMENT of chaos, destruction, desertification, famine and hunger in the land. It is both symbolic and nationalistic in the assignment to Asiatics. It is also possible that they took this mantle upon themselves as a way to reinforce fear and their power and dominion over the Egyptians. Remember it is something like a symbol of state. Heru and the like represents Upper Egypt and the native Kings of the South. Set represents Lower Egypt and the (sometimes) foreign kings of the North. Of course they were at odds. This is what the symbolism came to represent, which is any threat to the political and economic stability of the lands, unified under the kings from the south.

^ co-sign.
Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Akkadians, according to Kramer said that Meluhha was “the place of the black men” (see p.277) . Since the Sumerians were called the “black headed” people, the reference to Meluhha as the land of the black man probably refers to Kush-Punt as the original homeland of the Sumerians.
I don't follow.

- even if there is a reference in Akadian to Sudan as the place of the Black man, that does not imply that Akadians are claiming that *all Black men come from Sudan*.

- even if Akadians believed that *all Black men come from Sudan* then that wouldn't make it so.

They might believe that all Black men come from Australia, or India, or the Pacific Islands, or Arabia, but that should not be confused for evidence of such a proposition.

For example: You can't claim that Nigerians come from India, because of and off hand reference to "India as the place of the Black man".

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ Yes, and the men below are not Meluhaite soldiers but Medjay soldiers...

 -

Stop distorting, Clyde.

Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
The Akkadians, according to Kramer said that Meluhha was “the place of the black men” (see p.277) . Since the Sumerians were called the “black headed” people, the reference to Meluhha as the land of the black man probably refers to Kush-Punt as the original homeland of the Sumerians.
I don't follow.

- even if there is a reference in Akadian to Sudan as the place of the Black man, that does not imply that Akadians are claiming that *all Black men come from Sudan*.

- even if Akadians believed that *all Black men come from Sudan* then that wouldn't make it so.

They might believe that all Black men come from Australia, or India, or the Pacific Islands, or Arabia, but that should not be confused for evidence of such a proposition.

For example: You can't claim that Nigerians come from India, because of and off hand reference to "India as the place of the Black man".

The Akkadians were also Blacks, I believe that Kramer was refering to the Sumerians.

Col. Rawlinson also believed they came from Africa and were probably Kushites.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes, and the men below are not Meluhaite soldiers but Medjay soldiers...

 -

Stop distorting, Clyde.

The Medjay came from Meluhha or Punt.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
meninarmer
Member
Member # 12654

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for meninarmer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is a good thread, and perhaps may help me understand when in Egyptian history left became right and right became left.

The creators of the Book Of The Dead, The pre-dynastic Anu are thought to originate from Ethiopia.
These are the peoples said to have founded Esnesh, Erment, and Heliopolis as well as laying down the elements of Egyptian civilization and philosophical systems.

What I have issue with is the claim that these Anu were followers of Set (Budge, Diop) which I find very difficult to resolve since this represents the exact opposite from the perspective of the Book Of The Dead which reads without doubt that it's creators were followers of Osiris.

Has the Book Of The Dead been altered from it's earlier Ani form, or are the Pyramid texts the earliest surviving editions of the original ?

Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
I would describe your attempts to 'explain' Indo European behavior in terms of the penal gland and brain aysemmetry as biological determinism.

Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
Set represents Lower Egypt and the (sometimes) foreign kings of the North.

Evergreen Writes:

To claim that biology in no way can be **A** predictor of human behavior is nonsensical. Autism is by its nature biology affecting human behavior. Hence Rasol's definition of Biological Determinism is discredited.

The point of the Baron-Cohen et al. study "Engineers and Autism" is that Autism and non-Autism are not contrasts. Austistic behavior falls on a spectrum and has an ill defined threshold. The propensities and characteristics of Autistic behavior seem to be positively correlated with left-brain hardwiring. Left-brain hardwiring seems to be more prevelent in Europeans than Africans.

The behavioral observations of the ancient Kemetic people seem to be congruent with modern Blacks such as Elijah Muhamed.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mazigh
Member
Member # 8621

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mazigh     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is a long discussion, it took time before the whole page was loaded [Big Grin]

I liked to say that Set is related to the Ancient Libyans/The ancestors of the Berbers. Some of the people were white, maybe with blond hair and blue eyes.
Set was also known as the God of the sahara (I have read this). That is a clear indication of his origin in the Libyan sahara.
Set might also have been the same Libyan god known to the Greeks as "Poseidon". Herodotus said that the name "Poseidon" is of Libyan origin.
Thus, no indo-Germans!

Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mazigh:
This is a long discussion, it took time before the whole page was loaded [Big Grin]

I liked to say that Set is related to the Ancient Libyans/The ancestors of the Berbers. Some of the people were white, maybe with blond hair and blue eyes.
Set was also known as the God of the sahara (I have read this). That is a clear indication of his origin in the Libyan sahara.
Set might also have been the same Libyan god known to the Greeks as "Poseidon". Herodotus said that the name "Poseidon" is of Libyan origin.
Thus, no indo-Germans!

Evergreen Writes:

Mazigh, why are you wasting thread space. There is no evidence that Ancient "Libyans" (A Indo-European word) were ancestral to most modern Berber speakers. However, the archetype Set later became associated with those of Indo-European heritage.

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Set originated in Upper Egypt in the town of Nubt.

quote:

Naqada was the necropolis of the town of Nubt, the town of gold, known in Greek as Ombos. It had been devoted to the god Set, or Set of Nubt, Nubty, as he is called in the Pyramid Texts, and as evidenced by inscribed blocks found at Naqada.

Seth was thought to have been born in the Naqada region and had been connected with the kingship from Early Dynastic times at least, appearing on the macehead of King Scorpion. Along with Horus, Set was embodied in the person of the king. First Dynasty queens held the title "she who sees Horus and Set," and the Second Dynasty king Peribsen emphasized Set as his protector. There are ruins of the temple dedicated to Set which dates to the 18th Dynasty in New Kingdom times.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/naqada.htm

Set was often called Set the Nubty or Golden one or Nubian. With Nubt meaning golden city. Naqada is the modern name for the region around Nubt and is used to refer to the predynastic culture in the area.

When the Hyksos invaded Egypt Set became their chief deity.

Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
I would describe your attempts to 'explain' Indo European behavior in terms of the penal gland and brain aysemmetry as biological determinism.

Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior

quote:
Evergreen Writes:

To claim that biology in no way can be **A** predictor of human behavior is nonsensical.

I agree, but this statement is both a strawman, based on adding disclaimers not present in the original comment:

- in no way (??)
- ***A*** [as in 1 out of 20 million possible] (???)

The term I used was *explain*. This implies both a specific and comprehensive answer to the question of human behavior.

^ Evergreen, by using this disclaimer you might as well advocate astrology.


For example: Capricorns are borne in January, miscarriages in Northern hemisphere are higher in the Winter.

*In this way*, Astrology can be called ***A**** predictor of miscarriage.

But astrology cannot explain miscarriage, a complicated phenomenon which has many possible causes likely none of them directly related to the Zodiac.

This defense of astrology therefore does not honestly engage the claims that astrologists make.

Niether are you honestly engaging your claims for reduction and denormalisation of indo-european behavior [as if there is such a singular entity] to issues penal gland and melanin level.

quote:
Autism is by its nature biology affecting human behavior. Hence Rasol's definition of Biological Determinism is discredited.
Another strawman argument, since it was never implied that biology has *no effect* on behavior.

I'm reminded of and American biological determinist claim that went as follows:

1) testosterone causes aggression.

2) convicted felons in the US have high levels of testosterone.

3) high testosterone therefore 'causes' crime.

4) african american men have higher than average levels of testosterone.

5) african american men make up a vastly disproportunate ratio of American convicts in prisons.

conclusion -> African American men are genetically predisposed to criminal behavior.

^ This is not valid because it is reductionist. It reduces the complex possiblities of human behavior to and unfounded cause and effect.

The manner in which this was exposed as being flawed was by extending the observation.

It also turns out that Police enforcement consists of men with a higher than average level of testosterone - as do corporate executives, political leaders, etc..

So, now what?

Does testosterone *predict* criminal, or crime fighter, or law maker?

In NAZI Germany - the best predictor of criminal - is Jew. [Roll Eyes]

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]I agree, but this statement is both a strawman, based on adding disclaimers not present in the original comment:

- in no way (??)
- ***A*** [as in 1 out of 20 million possible] (???)

Evergreen Writes:

What was the original comment made by me that you are referring to? Please provide the specific quote you are referring to as this will enable me to respond with a specific answer.

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]Another strawman argument, since it was never implied that biology has *no effect* on behavior.

Evergreen Writes:

Actually you did -

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]I would describe your attempts …… as biological determinism.

Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior


Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rasol
Member
Member # 4592

Icon 1 posted      Profile for rasol     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
Another strawman argument, since it was never implied that biology has *no effect* on behavior.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:

Evergreen Writes:

Actually you did -

Originally posted by rasol:
quote:
I would describe your attempts …… as biological determinism.

Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior

Really, so according to you, the two statements say the same thing?

1) since it was never implied that biology has *no effect* on behavior.

2) Biological determinism - fatalistic philosophy based on the the notion that biology can predict human behavior.

Therefore to say that biology can have some effect on behavior, is to say that biology can predict human behavior?

You are honestly saying that you can't see *any distinction* between the two?

You must be kidding, but that's ok I'll play along.

Please provide your defintion of biological determinism.

Explain how this is different from 'biology' itself.

Of if you don't think biological determinism exists or is any different than simple biology, then please say so.

Thanks.

Posts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Evergreen
Member
Member # 12192

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Evergreen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]

Please provide your defintion of biological determinism.

..............

Of if you don't think biological determinism exists or is any different than simple biology, then please say so.

Evergreen Writes:

What I think is the term "biological determinism" is often used in a relativist fashion without the indepth analysis or definition of what the term means before usage.

The preponderance of scientific evidence indicates:

1. Europeans trend toward left-brain assymetry.
2. Blacks trend toward symmetry or right-brain assymetry.
3. Points 1 and 2 above are biological inputs that impact human behavior.
4. These biological inputs do not represent the totality of causation of human behavior. Nurture, culture and free-will are also dominant factors.

Quote - Elijah Muhamed:

"....any human being who gives themself over to the doing of evil could be considered a devil..."

Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3