[..]Oric Bates begins his attempted exposition with the statement that the evidence is now admitted to be conclusive in support of the belief "that in his most important role and indeed in his origin, Osiris was a spirit of vegetation". He then give examples of the corn spirit begin called "the old man", "the old one" or "the old woman", and proceeds to propund the theory that the name Osiris is derived from the Berber root WSR, of which he says: "The Berber radical emboding this idea (i.e, of 'the old one') is the triliteral WSR, as seen for example in tusri, 'eld" (Gebel Nafusa), user, "to grow old" , "tusr" "eld", "aussar", and old man (Wargla) etc. Philogically, at least, it appeas that there is no difficulty in relating this widespread radical to the old divine name. The W would have had a history comparable to that of the Coptic ?? or th Ptolemaic [w]."
It will be remembered that Bates wrote a valuable book on the Eastern Libyans, and he rounds off his statement by remarking that "in 1900 Prof. Petrie boldly asserted that Osiris was a Libyan god" Setting aside for the moment the initial assuption, one cannot help seeing large loopholes in this theory, phonetically attractive as it is. One is the possible relationship between the Berber dialects and ancient Egyptain. The Berber dialects of Nubia, for example, may well be related in some way to ancient Egyptian, since a certain amount of the vocabulary seems to have affinities. The word Nubia itself may be derived from the ancinet Egyptian nbw "gold". To define the relationship, however, is a task which philologists have not ventured on; and the same is true, it appears, of the Berber dialects of Libya. It is not clear what Bates believed in respect of a possible nexus. If there were, and are, affinities, then one could obviously expect to find an Egyptian word meaning "old" which could be related to the Berber radical mentioned by Bates. If, on the contrary, he posits the name to be a Libyan implication of the way in which Petrie's statement is used - then the issue will depend on the evidence for Libyan influence in general and for such influence in the case of Osiris in particular. There is measure of support in favour of the former point. Scharff, for example, has shown that the god Ash was derived from Libya. In the case of Osiris, however, the evidence is negligible. The Berber theory therefore falls to the ground.
The Origins of Osiris and His Cult by John Gwyn Griffiths
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I thought you call the article Pseudo history, since he limited the Berber theory to a Berber etymology. More strange, was his reference to the Berber dialect of Nubia, and the name of Nubia.
The name Ausar sounds like the Berber/Riffian word "Aussar" which means "aged" (Old one). I myself brought it in relation with each other. There are also other ones who shared this opionion.
It is fully ianpropriate to summarize the Berber theory in the Berber etymology. It was Wallis Budge who said that all the texts concerning Osiris show he was of East African origin, probably Libyan. Oric Bates is not Pseudo liguist, nor Flinders Petrie!
One fact is true: Tracing the etymology of the names is overall unsafe.
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quote:One fact is true: Tracing the etymology of the names is overall unsafe.
not per se it isn't.
but it is when you arbitrarily decide that the word Osirus is Berber in origin, or say, that the word Tai as in Taiwan...is of Yoruba origin, that the Chinese word Mandarin is derived from the Mande word Mandingo. etc. ad nauseum.
anyone can play this game.
it's the lack of methodological rigour which makes it pseudo-linguistics, regardless of 'what' you consider Bates to be.
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I didn't read the book of Oric Bates, but i wonder his opninions, like those of Gabriel Camps. Contrary to the auteur of the article above, i don't agree with his opninion. The Berber reference seems to have served to the form of the book more than for the origin of Osiris. His unclear confusion on Nubian name and Berber language, gives the impression that he wasn't originally interested in the Berber theory. After, a self-declaration of the fall of the Berber theory, he jumped to the Mesopotamian origin, which is not strange for the form of the search.
My remarkt was heartly focused on the ignorance toward the Berber theory. Because he summarized it in the Berbe Etymogoly. If the substance of the theory was really centered in the Berber etymogoly, then it would be true. But Bates would have more input in such research. As example, his theory on the Berbe origin of the name "Lebu" would be also respactable. He didn't claim that the Labu would be of Libyan origin, because of name's ressemblance with the Berber tribe's name. Like in the case of Lebu. Oric Bates tired to trace the name Libu to a Berber origin, because the Lebu are the ancesters of the Berbers. That is also the same in the case of Osiris. Supposing he was convinced of the Libyan origin of Osiris, he would evidently try to decipher his name on the basis of the Berbe etymology. So, before judging concerning the Berber name, the autor must have read the Libyan/influence on Egypt, like the case of Ash that the autor admitted to be a Libyan influence. Personally, i believe strongly that there was a relationship with proto-Berber belief and Osiris. I'm now not interested in talking on my arguments, but i will once do, if possible.
Concerning the deciphrement of the ancient names, i said it is unsave. We have more than example. If we consider the names such as "Poseidon", and "Atlas" who were openly declated by Herodotus to be Libyan names, we find that those names are interpretted as Greek names, or better said as "Indo-European" names.
Another topic, was the name of Tifinagh (an ancient Libyan script). It was declared by the Berber prof. Salem Chaker to mean "the Script of the Phoenicians". That is a respectable opinion. But it is unsafe. Since, the Phoenician origin of Tifinagh is not prooved. More than that: When i reduced the name "Tifinagh" to a singular form i got with the help of other plural form from the Berbe language, (Tissinaf (pl) to Tasinaft (sing.)) i got the name "Tafinakhat". This name would be known as the name of the Libyan Pharaoh "Tafnakht". So, Salem Chaker had was wrongly in simplifying the name. Because "Tafnakht" wouldn't mean "The Pharaoh of the Phoenicians", because he ruled in Egypt, at least.
In the libyco-Egygtian mythology, it is discussable wether the Libyco-egyptian god was of Egyptian origin; Nevertheless, Amon was iterepretted as an Egyptian name ignoring his existence in the Berber pantheon. The same case in the Carthagian religion were Tanit is considered to be of Phoenician origin, ignoring her worship by the ancient Libyans, her Berber etymology.
I don't claim that the article had to admit his Libyan origin, but i criticize its simplification for the Berber theory concerning the origin of the god and the name.
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Gabor Takacs of Eotvos Lorand University in Towards the Etymology of the Name of Osiris presented at The North American Conference on Afro-Asiatic Linguistics Twenty-Fifth Annual Meeting Miami, Florida (March 21-23, 1997) takes Bates (1915) one step further:
quote: 2. Our etymological suggestion for Eg. wsjr is close to that by Bates. The comparative Semito-Hamitic linguistic data treated below support to interpret the primary character of Osiris as the god of death. The closest Semito-Hamitic candidate equivalent may be found in WChad. Hausa shu:re "to die (of animals)."
. . . .
2.2. Thus [the following] may ultimately be of common origin:
code:
Hausa shu:re
Eg. wsjr
Berb. *-wsar "(to be) old" Ahaggar iwhar (intens. w@shsh@r) "lange her sein, alt sein," Ghat aushshar "old," ushsher "to be old," Nefusa usser Beni Snus usser "to be old," Sokna aussar/wussu:ret Ghadames wesser "veillard," Ahaggar uhar "to be old" PBerb. *wsr *uss@r "alt sein"
?ECush. Yaaku -sirgin pl. -siragde "old" (if -rg- < *-rw-) from AA *Siwar- "old"
WChad. Sura-Angas gr. *-sir- "old" Ankwe sir angas n-s@r n-sir Sura di-sighir Chip wu-sighir (possibly from *si[w]ir, (the inlaut -gh- being secondary here
CentChad. Daba mus@r "old" (prefix m-), Hwona suxwurin (secondary -xw- < *-gw- from *-ww-?) "old."
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Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Thanks Altakruri for the reply. I do add the Riffian word for "Aged": Iwsa => He became old. Tawsart => Becoming old/aged. Aussar or Awessar=> Aged/old.
The Berber word for "aged" would etymologically be related to "as" (plural: Iwassen or ussen) Iwhich means "day" in the Berber language. Year is called "aseggas" in the Riffian language. This would als be based on the "as" (day). Leterally coul it mean "as g as/was" (English: Day in day).
I suggest therefore that the word "awessar or aussar" would have been used in broader meaning.
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^ But you do realize that the etymology is not just Berber but Afrisian. I don't know why you are always trying to prove a Berber root for anything Egyptian. Berber is not the ancestor of Egyptian but a sister to it. Both languages descend from Proto-Afrisian.
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Best Djehuti, if you would like to understand this topic, it wouldn't be so difficult. It is not me who try to trace Osiris/Ausar to a Berber origin. Like I said was it the great author 'Oric Bates' ( i do like that author, like Gabriel Camps), and Wallis Budge, and Flinders Petrie... Attributing this theory to me, is just because you don't like to be convinced, i suggest. It is a pseudo-languistic when it was Berber, but when it became wider, became it a "good point". So, it shouldn't be.
Since, i'm mixed in this theory, i give fastly some agruments: - Osiris with a head of an animal is considered a strange religion in the Egyptian pantheon. Such, dog-headed deities where already known konwn in the Berber desertified region's. [quote] There are representations in rock art of dog-headed human figures which resemble Anubis, and a type of stamped pottery decoration later found in the southern Nile valley. [/quot] I suggest this was the basis of Petrie's theory, altough that seems to be a relatively a recent invention (by Italian archeologists). It was one an explosion to know that a Libyan mummy was thousand year older than the Egyptian one. The Libyan vases and the dog-headed pantheon served to emphasize the Libyan influence in Egypt.
The libyan influence in Egypt was proven with founding Libyan vases in Egypt. Osiris was feathered which are typical for the Libyans. Seth the enemie of Osiris was considered as the god of the desert. Horus the sun of Osiris has been related to a Libyan tribe "Horus Tehenu" (Like Neith Tehenu).
Osiris seems to have been worshiped by the Libyans too.
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^ Well it is a fact that some of the ancestors of the Egyptians were from the Western deserts before it dried up. However, where is the proof that these were Berber speakers as opposed to Egyptian speakers? There is also evidence of dog-headed and other animal headed figures from the central Sahara. Mind you animal-headed figures are not unique to the Egyptians or 'Berbers' if they had them but to other Africans as well including those in West Africa.
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quote:Horus the sun of Osiris has been related to a Libyan tribe "Horus Tehenu"
Remember these are mythical God-Ancestors, not actual peoples.
Horus is not the 'sun' of Osirus but rather the son-of Osirus and Isis. By definition he is *related* to the above, he is not related specifically to any Tamahu.
And Tehenu refers to Siwa -which is not Libya in the sense of the modern nation of Libya. Just as ancient references to Ethiopia often relate Sudan, and not modern Ethiopia.
I'm sure you know all the above, but have to be careful about what you say - otherwise you may mislead.
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If there were creations with heads of animals in other Afro-asian cultures, that would be then interesting to this topic. I do encourage you to give some citation of links to the topic.
I cannot give the evidence that those Saharan people were ancestors to the Berbers. I can maybe give the evidence of the Berber/Libyan relationship to the topic i discussed.
I was not trying to proove the Berber origin of Osiris in this topic, i was jsut criticizing the cited article. Especially his reference to Nubia. Was it not strange?
By the way, i'm intereted in another etymogoly. It is the Berber word "Ighzar" (I suggest it would also be called "Aghzar"). This word is Riffian (Berber) and it means "River". The egyptian name "Osiris/Ausar" can be related to this name. The name doesn't have to be Berber. It could be also be purely "Egyptian". But shared with other Afro-asiatic language. I find another word in Arabic "Ghazara(h)". This Arabic word doens't mean "River", but it can be related to it. Men says "Almataru yanzilu bi ghazara(h)" - That is traslated as "It rains heavily" - But the early origin (this a speculation) might have been "It rains like a river".
Osiris as god of Rivers would accept such a name. But it has to be proven that the Berber and Arabic "GH" in Ighzar and "Ghazir" (speculated relationship) could be changed by "w" in the Egyptian language. Like the case with "L" and "R" in the Egyptian language.
I would then suggest that "Set" would have a name related to the "desert". In this case, would it be a beatiful imagination for the "desertification". The desert that killed the river; Why not?
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Mazigh, ancient and modern Berber speakers are primarily AFRICANS. As such they were related by culture, language and ancestry. There IS NO separation between ancient Berber speakers and Africa. However, many MODERN researchers tend to try and over amplify the fact that many Northern coastal Berber speakers are mixed with non Africans as a way to SPLIT these people from the rest of Africa. But the fact remains that no matter how MIXED some modern Berber speakers may be, Berber languages originated IN AFRICA among black Africans. The primary lineages among Berber speakers is derived from black Africans. Many of the cultural traits are also derived from Africans as well, especially as you go back further in time. Ancient peoples in Northern Africa had traits similar to other Africans, which signifies a common African foundation for many of these cultures. However, many modern researchers try to gloss over this and pretend that the culture of these Northern groups was somehow ancestral or totally unique from other Africans, thus trying to make these groups the origin of many traits that were found all over Africa at the time. As Africans, the ancient Berber speakers of Northern Africa had traits and customs similar to other Africans. This does not mean that all these traits and customs originated with this group of Berber speakers and spread to Africa. It means that as Africans these traits and customs had an ancient common ancestor among other populations in Africa.
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^ Of course they were Africans, but the issue here is the linguistics. Mazigh is just using pseudo-linguistics not much different from the methods Clyde uses.
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I didn't say i'm right in my speculations, i was just trying. That is the spirit of my amatoric Berber researches! I gathered enough speculations to begin a serie (i think i call it: Babling with the deities). But i'm not able to write literature in English. It loses its literature.
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Let's give Mazigh some creds and not make him appear to be saying something he's not. He's Kabyle and he's here with us (wow wee), not vexing us as other iMazighen have done when they come around. Let's extend him a hand and attempt to repair our fractured Africanity.
As a step in that direction, Mazigh, you need to replace that awful cartoon in your Wiki article. It was not drawn by ancient Egyptians but by 19th century Italians. I suggest you use something as authentic as this faience tile made for Ramses III
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Mazigh, ancient and modern Berber speakers are primarily AFRICANS. As such they were related by culture, language and ancestry. There IS NO separation between ancient Berber speakers and Africa. However, many MODERN researchers tend to try and over amplify the fact that many Northern coastal Berber speakers are mixed with non Africans as a way to SPLIT these people from the rest of Africa. But the fact remains that no matter how MIXED some modern Berber speakers may be, Berber languages originated IN AFRICA among black Africans. The primary lineages among Berber speakers is derived from black Africans. Many of the cultural traits are also derived from Africans as well, especially as you go back further in time. Ancient peoples in Northern Africa had traits similar to other Africans, which signifies a common African foundation for many of these cultures. However, many modern researchers try to gloss over this and pretend that the culture of these Northern groups was somehow ancestral or totally unique from other Africans, thus trying to make these groups the origin of many traits that were found all over Africa at the time. As Africans, the ancient Berber speakers of Northern Africa had traits and customs similar to other Africans. This does not mean that all these traits and customs originated with this group of Berber speakers and spread to Africa. It means that as Africans these traits and customs had an ancient common ancestor among other populations in Africa.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mazigh: You're invited to start threads and/or post on this board as well, since there is a section specifically dedicated to non-Nile-Valley North Africa, and I have access to abundant scholarly documentation that I'd be happy to share with you and others there.
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Been working on it that since Sunday. One of the very dark `3MW I have in a book thats currently inaccessible. Problem with precise ID of those tiles (and I tend profuse thanks for your posting them) is that afaik they're inscriptionless.
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