quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Olmec writing is based on the Vai script of the Mande. It was used by the Olmec to inscribe monuments, mask ,celts and statues. See film:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The Olmec writing is based on the Vai script of the Mande. It was used by the Olmec to inscribe monuments, mask ,celts and statues. See film:
quote:Clyde Winters: This movie explains why some Mexicans look like Africans. web page
hmmm
quote:LMAO. Olmec98 is the very fraud I was talking about in my video, Clyde Winters. Look at how deceptive he is: First he shows an imag ofTaharqa which post dates the Olmec by by over 200 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa Make sure you look at the image on the right, not cut out, and look at the picture in the center of the first image on this video. Now remember the life time of Taharqa: 690 BC to 664 BC, and compare it to 1200 BCE to about 400 BCE. And note the styles are quite different.
Second fraudulent claim: African Y Chromosomes among Maya. What the actual study said: "One Mayan male, previously shown to have an African Y-chromosome, had the 194-bp C haplotype." Seielstad, M. T., Herbert, J. M., Lin, A. A., Underhill, P. A., Ibrahim, M., Vollrath, D. & Cavalli-Sforza, L. L. (1994) Hum.Mol. Genet. 12, 2159-2161. He was the ONLY male shown to have a African Y chromosome in the whole population. Further more when I asked Professor Underhill: "It was never my intention to claim or imply of any Pre-Colombian contact with Africans. That is an extraordinary inference. Such extraordinary conclusions need extraordinary data to have traction. Such extraordinary data do not exist in my opinion. To the best of my knowledge their is no compelling evidence for this imaginative scenario. All "African" Y data in the New World that I have seen is consistent with post-European contact rather then the fanciful leap made by others. While numerous papers (see attached) concerning the S.American gene pool show signals of African admixture, this is best viewed through the lens of the past 500 years. It is noteworthy to appreciate that the Y chromosome African perspective is actually relatively minor in comparison to the arrival of European Y chromosomes during the past 500 years." Underhill's article can be seen here: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/196 In other words, false claim.
Claims of the Cora and Huichol? In fact, in Lisker's study of most native populations, they did not use a trihybrid analysis because of no African admixture found, only with the Cora and Chontal, was this done. Because ONE Cora and TWO Chontal were found with African admixture. Of the whole Cora and Chontal population. Lisker's full article for those who don't like to be bamboozled. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_199606/ai_n8744183/print
The claim by Guthrie of HLAs like A*28? Guthrie is no doctor, but an industrial chemist and a known hyperdiffusionist who writes fro NEARA a hyperdiffusionist magazine.
Already posted responses to Guthrie's similar claims before:
The HLA allele group A*31 (that is, allele A*310102, the most usual of the A*31 alleles) has a wide distribution and occurs in populations of all continents. The possibility of an "early intercourse between Brazil and Africa" in not supported by the frequencies of this allele in some African and Amerindian populations. In fact, HLA data (various loci / many alleles) support the hypothesis of Asian origin. Even the many HLA alleles seen only in Amerindians of (nowadays) Latin America and nowhere else (notice that A*31 is not one of these alleles) are most easily explained by local origin, involving a set of ancestral alleles brought to America by the Asian founder populations. In summary: the global distribution of the A*31 allele does not support and early direct contact between African and American populations. The most plausible explanation for the high frequency seen in Amerindians and in some other populations is random genetic drift and natural selection.
For a discussion about the HLA polymorphism in Amerindians (origins of alleles vs. origins of the Amerindians), see: Parham P, Arnett KL, Adams EJ, Little A-M, Tees K, Barber LD, Marsh SGE, Ohta T, Markow T, Petzl-Erler ML. Episodic evolution and turnover of HLA-B in the indigenous human populations of the Americas. Tissue Antigens 50:219-232, 1997.
Prof. Dr. M. Luiza Petzl-Erler, Genetics
HLA is a system which is very likely under very strong natural selection, though we may not necessarily understand the nature of such selection in any particular case. Strong selection can alter allele frequencies very fast - 1000 times faster that fluctuations in neutral genes usually occur. Furthermore, looking to some other and more neutral genetic systems - such as mtDNA - there is not a slightest hint about Pre-Columbian gene flow between Africa (Sahara or sub-Saharan alike) and Americas. One may say that such a flow did not involve women (a reasonable explanation). However - the Y chromosome is a very unreliable marker system here because virtually all Amerind Y chromosome pools of different tribes encompass a considerable, sometimes very large share, of European, and depending on tribe, European and African Y chromosomes. Finally - Amerind tribal gene frequencies are in general very spotty - people believe that this is because of random genetic drift in small isolated populations. Therefore - frequency differences even in an order of magnitude scale are not really surprising.
Dr. Richard Villems, Genetics
This section of chromosome #5 is the weapons factory for our species's eternal war against germs. Its genes produce the lymphocytes and antibodies that defend us. Because of this, it has two features that make it unsuitable for tracking migrations, in my view. First, it evolves and mutates at a phenomenal rate. Nearly every generation carries some new twist in this section of DNA. (You can see why this must be. If it were not so, the germs would have won long ago.) The [Guthrie's] article also mentions other markers (including the cde blood types, other blood proteins, and mtDNA). Judging by those observations, it appears to me that the author may tend to interpret evidence of admixture as evidence of precolumbian transoceanic contact, rather than as merely showing post-colonization mixing. It is not clear how he would tell them apart. Specifically, I have no problem with the sentence, "The surprisingly high frequencies in the Mande, Tigre, and Tuareg samples could be the result of early intercourse between Brazil and Africa." I just do not find it persuasive evidence of precolumbian contact. The mixed Portuguese in colonial Brazil imported huge numbers of mixed slaves from northwest Africa.
Dr. Frank Sweet, Molecular Anthropology
The use of mtDNA and Y-chromosome uses sections that are not adaptive so that mutation and thus the distributions are due to random occurrences. HLA however depend on what exposure the populations have been exposed to. If different populations are exposed to the same infections, they will end up with similar HLAs even though then may not be related or ever in contact. I'm sure people try to compensate for that, but inherently HLA will be less accurate. Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Anthropology
As for the B Allele claim, LOL it is common in the Eskimo and Angmagssalik of Greenland. As well as the Russian, etc. So are the Mayan Slavic now? The East Coast of Mexico has about the same admixture as Puerto Rico BECAUSE those regions had slaves. Not the indigenous populations though. All the CITIES mentioned had a post colonial African presence. Nothing to do with the Maya, Huichol, Toltec, etc.
Like I said, Fraud. And by the way, NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of what the Olmec called themselves.
quote:ie below discusses the various Negro Mexicans who lived in the region before Columbus. web page
quote:Clyde Winters: This movie explains why some Mexicans look like Africans. web page
hmmm
quote:LMAO. Olmec98 is the very fraud I was talking about in my video, Clyde Winters. Look at how deceptive he is: First he shows an imag ofTaharqa which post dates the Olmec by by over 200 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharqa Make sure you look at the image on the right, not cut out, and look at the picture in the center of the first image on this video. Now remember the life time of Taharqa: 690 BC to 664 BC, and compare it to 1200 BCE to about 400 BCE. And note the styles are quite different.
Second fraudulent claim: African Y Chromosomes among Maya. What the actual study said: "One Mayan male, previously shown to have an African Y-chromosome, had the 194-bp C haplotype." Seielstad, M. T., Herbert, J. M., Lin, A. A., Underhill, P. A., Ibrahim, M., Vollrath, D. & Cavalli-Sforza, L. L. (1994) Hum.Mol. Genet. 12, 2159-2161. He was the ONLY male shown to have a African Y chromosome in the whole population. Further more when I asked Professor Underhill: "It was never my intention to claim or imply of any Pre-Colombian contact with Africans. That is an extraordinary inference. Such extraordinary conclusions need extraordinary data to have traction. Such extraordinary data do not exist in my opinion. To the best of my knowledge their is no compelling evidence for this imaginative scenario. All "African" Y data in the New World that I have seen is consistent with post-European contact rather then the fanciful leap made by others. While numerous papers (see attached) concerning the S.American gene pool show signals of African admixture, this is best viewed through the lens of the past 500 years. It is noteworthy to appreciate that the Y chromosome African perspective is actually relatively minor in comparison to the arrival of European Y chromosomes during the past 500 years." Underhill's article can be seen here: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/196 In other words, false claim.
Claims of the Cora and Huichol? In fact, in Lisker's study of most native populations, they did not use a trihybrid analysis because of no African admixture found, only with the Cora and Chontal, was this done. Because ONE Cora and TWO Chontal were found with African admixture. Of the whole Cora and Chontal population. Lisker's full article for those who don't like to be bamboozled. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_199606/ai_n8744183/print
The claim by Guthrie of HLAs like A*28? Guthrie is no doctor, but an industrial chemist and a known hyperdiffusionist who writes fro NEARA a hyperdiffusionist magazine.
Already posted responses to Guthrie's similar claims before:
The HLA allele group A*31 (that is, allele A*310102, the most usual of the A*31 alleles) has a wide distribution and occurs in populations of all continents. The possibility of an "early intercourse between Brazil and Africa" in not supported by the frequencies of this allele in some African and Amerindian populations. In fact, HLA data (various loci / many alleles) support the hypothesis of Asian origin. Even the many HLA alleles seen only in Amerindians of (nowadays) Latin America and nowhere else (notice that A*31 is not one of these alleles) are most easily explained by local origin, involving a set of ancestral alleles brought to America by the Asian founder populations. In summary: the global distribution of the A*31 allele does not support and early direct contact between African and American populations. The most plausible explanation for the high frequency seen in Amerindians and in some other populations is random genetic drift and natural selection.
For a discussion about the HLA polymorphism in Amerindians (origins of alleles vs. origins of the Amerindians), see: Parham P, Arnett KL, Adams EJ, Little A-M, Tees K, Barber LD, Marsh SGE, Ohta T, Markow T, Petzl-Erler ML. Episodic evolution and turnover of HLA-B in the indigenous human populations of the Americas. Tissue Antigens 50:219-232, 1997.
Prof. Dr. M. Luiza Petzl-Erler, Genetics
HLA is a system which is very likely under very strong natural selection, though we may not necessarily understand the nature of such selection in any particular case. Strong selection can alter allele frequencies very fast - 1000 times faster that fluctuations in neutral genes usually occur. Furthermore, looking to some other and more neutral genetic systems - such as mtDNA - there is not a slightest hint about Pre-Columbian gene flow between Africa (Sahara or sub-Saharan alike) and Americas. One may say that such a flow did not involve women (a reasonable explanation). However - the Y chromosome is a very unreliable marker system here because virtually all Amerind Y chromosome pools of different tribes encompass a considerable, sometimes very large share, of European, and depending on tribe, European and African Y chromosomes. Finally - Amerind tribal gene frequencies are in general very spotty - people believe that this is because of random genetic drift in small isolated populations. Therefore - frequency differences even in an order of magnitude scale are not really surprising.
Dr. Richard Villems, Genetics
This section of chromosome #5 is the weapons factory for our species's eternal war against germs. Its genes produce the lymphocytes and antibodies that defend us. Because of this, it has two features that make it unsuitable for tracking migrations, in my view. First, it evolves and mutates at a phenomenal rate. Nearly every generation carries some new twist in this section of DNA. (You can see why this must be. If it were not so, the germs would have won long ago.) The [Guthrie's] article also mentions other markers (including the cde blood types, other blood proteins, and mtDNA). Judging by those observations, it appears to me that the author may tend to interpret evidence of admixture as evidence of precolumbian transoceanic contact, rather than as merely showing post-colonization mixing. It is not clear how he would tell them apart. Specifically, I have no problem with the sentence, "The surprisingly high frequencies in the Mande, Tigre, and Tuareg samples could be the result of early intercourse between Brazil and Africa." I just do not find it persuasive evidence of precolumbian contact. The mixed Portuguese in colonial Brazil imported huge numbers of mixed slaves from northwest Africa.
Dr. Frank Sweet, Molecular Anthropology
The use of mtDNA and Y-chromosome uses sections that are not adaptive so that mutation and thus the distributions are due to random occurrences. HLA however depend on what exposure the populations have been exposed to. If different populations are exposed to the same infections, they will end up with similar HLAs even though then may not be related or ever in contact. I'm sure people try to compensate for that, but inherently HLA will be less accurate. Bernard Ortiz de Montellano, Anthropology
As for the B Allele claim, LOL it is common in the Eskimo and Angmagssalik of Greenland. As well as the Russian, etc. So are the Mayan Slavic now? The East Coast of Mexico has about the same admixture as Puerto Rico BECAUSE those regions had slaves. Not the indigenous populations though. All the CITIES mentioned had a post colonial African presence. Nothing to do with the Maya, Huichol, Toltec, etc.
Like I said, Fraud. And by the way, NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of what the Olmec called themselves.
quote:ie below discusses the various Negro Mexicans who lived in the region before Columbus. web page
There is no fruad in my movie. You admit that the Cora and Chontal carry African genes. You also admit that the Maya in the Underhill study carried an African gene. Your only argument with Gutherie is that he is a chemist, no where is it illustrated that his findings are wrong.
Moreover, you have not presented any evidence of the 75% admixture of Mexicans and Africans. It is this admixture which has led some Mexicans to look like the African .
Your comments change nothing I said in my movie. In fact, you are confirming what I said in the movie.
posted
Incorrect. I stated that ONE Mayan was found with an African Y Chromosome. You could say that about virtually every population in the world. Same with the Cora and Chontal.
ONE indian isn't evidence of 75% admixture in the indigenous populations. The Huichol population had zero. And many of the pictures I presented where Huichol. SO much for your claim admicture led to those faces. The Mayans had one person out of a whole population tested. So much for the Mayan faces being from admixture.
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quote:Clyde Winters: This movie explains why some Mexicans look like Africans. web page
hmmm
And by the way, NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER of what the Olmec called themselves.
[/QUOTE]
Bi-Lingual Olmec Mayan Text
.
We know the name of the Olmec from the Maya. Landa noted that the Yucatec Maya claimed that they got writing from a group of foreigners called Tutul Xiu from Nonoulco (Tozzer, 1941). The Olmec originated writing in Mexico., so we can assume that the term Tutul Xiu refer to the Olmec. The Tutul Xi were probably Olmecs. The term Tutul Xiu, can be translated into Olmec which is a member of the Manding Superfamily of languages as follows: Tutul, "Very good subjects of the Order". Xiu, "The Shi (/the race)".
"The Shis (who) are very good Subjects of the cult-Order".
The term Shi, is probably related to the Manding term Si, which was also used as an ethnonym. Since Si/Xi was used as an ethnonym, the Tutul Xi-u were the Olmec people. Thus I call them by their own name Xi.
Reference Landa, D. de. (1978). Yucatan before and after the Conquest. (Trans. by) William Gates. New York: Dover Publications.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Bi-Lingual Olmec Mayan Text
Sorry bub, that claim got debunked a long time ago in the video. I actually challenge you to post a PICTURE of the supposed brick.
quote:We know the name of the Olmec from the Maya. Landa noted that the Yucatec Maya claimed that they got writing from a group of foreigners called Tutul Xiu from Nonoulco (Tozzer, 1941).
Nice try. The Tutul Xiu was a Mayan ruling family.
quote:The Olmec originated writing in Mexico., so we can assume that the term Tutul Xiu refer to the Olmec.
No evidence that the Olmec had writing as of yet. Nor that they preceded the Maya s in writing.
quote:The Tutul Xi were probably Olmecs.
Oh now its Xi, What happened to Xiu?
And no evidence of Tutul in Mande.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Bi-Lingual Olmec Mayan Text
Sorry bub, that claim got debunked a long time ago in the video. I actually challenge you to post a PICTURE of the supposed brick.
quote:We know the name of the Olmec from the Maya. Landa noted that the Yucatec Maya claimed that they got writing from a group of foreigners called Tutul Xiu from Nonoulco (Tozzer, 1941).
Nice try. The Tutul Xiu was a Mayan ruling family.
quote:The Olmec originated writing in Mexico., so we can assume that the term Tutul Xiu refer to the Olmec.
No evidence that the Olmec had writing as of yet. Nor that they preceded the Maya s in writing.
quote:The Tutul Xi were probably Olmecs.
Oh now its Xi, What happened to Xiu?
And no evidence of Tutul in Mande.
Everyone accepts the fact that the Olmec had writing since the discovery of the Andres stamp seal (c 500 BC+). Moreover, there are numerous inscribed Olmec artifacts that record and document calendar dates. Clearly the Maya got their writing from the Olmecs.
Please provide the evidence that Tutul can not be read in Mande languages.
Please explain how Landa claims the Tutul Xiu were foriegners--and you calim they were Maya.
You can find the Comalcalco bricks here:
Steede. Neil; "The Bricks of Comalcalco," Ancient American, 1:8, September/October 1994. 2. Fell, Barry; "The Comalcalco Bricks: Part 1, the Roman Phase," Occasional Papers, Epigraphic Society, 19:299, 1990.
The -u, is the plural element in Olmec. Singular is Xi, that's why we call the Olmec Xi to signify the individual Olmec person.
quote:Clyde Winters: Everyone accepts the fact that the Olmec had writing since the discovery of the Andres stamp seal (c 500 BC+). Moreover, there are numerous inscribed Olmec artifacts that record and document calendar dates. Clearly the Maya got their writing from the Olmecs.
LOL. Evidence other than yourself that these Olmec inscriptions exist.
quote:Please provide the evidence that Tutul can not be read in Mande languages.
Easy. Only you can supposedly read the Mande text. Even Mande can't see anything. LOL
quote:Please explain how Landa claims the Tutul Xiu were foriegners--and you calim they were Maya.
LOL That is what happens when you only rely on one quote. A lot more studies have been done than Landa.
quote:You can find the Comalcalco bricks here:
Steede. Neil; "The Bricks of Comalcalco," Ancient American, 1:8, September/October 1994. 2. Fell, Barry; "The Comalcalco Bricks: Part 1, the Roman Phase," Occasional Papers, Epigraphic Society, 19:299, 1990.
The -u, is the plural element in Olmec. Singular is Xi, that's why we call the Olmec Xi to signify the individual Olmec person.
LMAO. Steede the hyperdiffusionist. All there are is drawings. And LOL, post delafosse stating that a U is plural..
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posted
Jaime you have been so busy trolling that you have not kept up with recent research. As I stated before everyone accepts the fact that the Olmec writing exist as proven by the recent article in National Geographic.
quote:
Oldest Writing in New World Discovered, Scientists Say Mason Inman for National Geographic News
September 14, 2006 A writing system lost for 3,000 years has been rediscovered on an ancient stone tablet in Mexico, archaeologists say (map of Mexico).
The tablet is the earliest example of writing in the New World, pushing back the origins of writing in the region by several hundred years, according to a paper that will appear in tomorrow's edition of the journal Science.
This is the Cascajal Tablet. Archaeologist also cite the San Andres Roller stamp as an example of Olmec writing.
You claim the Mande can not read the Vai syllabaries but they continue to produce documents and artifacts in Vai today.
You claim that Landa was wrong about the Tutul Xiu, being foriegners. This is impossible Landa, wrote this quote hundreds of years ago, their is no way you can say he is wrong when he was on the scene to collect the Mayan tradition. Don't forget it was Landa's work which helped researchers learn to read the Mayan script.
Finally, Neil Steede published the only book on the bricks, if you refuse to acknowledge his contribution to Meso-American archaeology that is your loss.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] Jaime you have been so busy trolling that you have not kept up with recent research. As I stated before everyone accepts the fact that the Olmec writing exist as proven by the recent article in National Geographic.
LOL. Nice try. The Cascajal tablet hasn't been proven as writing yet. And your bogus decipherement is not valid.
One sign of a bogus system is one that can read any language using the same symbols. Here, Winters claims to be reading this stone using Vai symbols with Mande words, but he also claimed to read the Mojarra stone, which has quite different symbols, as the paper points out, using the very same Vai symbols.
quote:You claim the Mande can not read the Vai syllabaries but they continue to produce documents and artifacts in Vai today.
Nice try. I said Mande who can read Vai syllabaries see no Vai in the Olmec symbols. Only your deluded self does. I forwarded the images and your supposed translations to multiple Mande scholars and they were highly amused.
quote:You claim that Landa was wrong about the Tutul Xiu, being foriegners. This is impossible Landa, wrote this quote hundreds of years ago, their is no way you can say he is wrong when he was on the scene to collect the Mayan tradition. Don't forget it was Landa's work which helped researchers learn to read the Mayan script.
LOL. I guess you have never heard of progression of studies or multiple sources. You think he was the only one to speak to the Mayans? You also seem to forget Landa was the one who burned many of the Codices and was particularly biased in what he chose to report or not. Landa never deciphered the Mayan Syllabary as he thought it was an alphabet.
Furthermore, the Cascajal tablet shows no resemblance to Mayan or Epi-Olmec writing and
quote:Finally, Neil Steede published the only book on the bricks, if you refuse to acknowledge his contribution to Meso-American archaeology that is your loss.
Don't make me laugh. He bamboozled the Mexican government, but he is a BA in general studies. He is a hyperdiffusionist. Claiming Ogham all over the place. He is a member of the Early Sites Research Society, which along with the Epigraphic Society constantly try to claim foreigners diod everything in the Americas.
And you are wrong, other hyperdiffusionists have written about the Bricks as well. Barry Feel wrote claims that the inscriptions were Roman.
Below is the pictorial evidence of the Olmec and Maya. It is clear that the Maya were native Americans but the Olmecs were Africans.
We claim the Olmecs as Africans because they came from Africa and spoke an African langauage.
The best evidence for African Olmecs is the Cascajal tablet. This tablet was found last year in Mexico.
The Olmec writing on the Cascajal tablet is an obituary for a King Bi Po. This writing is written in Hieroglyphic Olmec (Winters,2006). Hieroglyphic Olmec includes multiple linear Olmec signs which are joined together to make pictures of animals, faces and other objects.
Some researchers have recognized insects and other objects in the signs. In reality these signs are made up several different Olmec linear signs (Winters,1998).
To read the Olmec writing I use the Vai script. The Vai script includes a number of syllabic signs that have been used to engrave rocks in the Sahara for the past 4000 years. I read the signs in Malinke-Bambara which was the spoken language of the Olmec.
The Olmec writing is read right to left top to bottom. Each segment of the Olmec sign has to be broken down into its individual syllabic sign. In most cases the Olmec signs includes two or more syllabic characters. The Olmec signs can be interpreted as follows:
1. La fe ta gyo 2. Bi yu 3. Pa po yu 4. Se ta I su 5. Ta kye 6. Beb be 7. Bi Po Yu to 8. Tu fa ku 9. Tu pa pot u 10. Ta gbe pa 11. i-tu 12. Bi Yu yo po 13. Kye gyo 14. Po lu 15. Fe ta yo i 16. Be kye 17. Fe gina 18. Po bi po tu 19. Lu kye gyo to 20. Kye tu a pa 21. Yu gyo i 22. Pa ku pa 23. Po yu 24. Day u kye da 25. Po ta kye tap o 26. Ta gbe 27. Bi Fa yu 28. Bi Yu / Paw
Translation Reading the Cascajal Tablet from right to left we have the following:
(8) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (7) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties.
(6) This abode is possessed by the Governor . (5)…. (4) Bi Po Po.
(3) Bi (was), (2) an Artisan desires to be consecrated to the divinity. (1) (and He) merits thou offer of libations.
(14). Admiration (for) the cult specialist’s hemisphere tomb. (13) The inheritance of thou vital spirit is consecration to the divinity.
(12) In a place of righteous admiration, (11) Pure Bi (in a) pure abode
(10) A pure mark of admiration (is) this hemispheric tomb.
(9) [Here] lays low (the celebrity) [he] is gone.
(22) The place of righteousness, [is] (21) the pure hemispheric tomb
(20) (19) Thou (art) obedient to the Order. (18) Hold upright the Order (and) the divinity of the sacred cult.
(17) Pure Admiration this place of, (16) Bi the Vital Spirit. (15) [Truly this is ] a place consecrated to the divinity and propriety.
27) Lay low (the celebrity) to go to , (26) love the mystic order—thou vivid image of the race,
(25) The pure Govenor and (24) Devotee [of the Order lies in this] hemispheric tomb ,desires [to be] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue, (23) [He] merits thou offer of Libations.
(34) Command Respect. (33)….this place of admiration. (32) Thou sacred inheritance is propriety. (31) The Govenor commands existence in a unique state, (31) [in] this ruler’s hemispheric tomb. (29) The Royal (28) [was] a vigorous man.
(36) The pure habitation (35) [of a ]Ruler obedient to the Order. (37) This abode is possessed by the governor. (38) Admiration to you [who art] obedient to the Order. (49) Pure admiration [for this] tomb. (48) Thou hold upright the pure law. (47). Pure admiration [for this tomb]. (46) [It] acts [as] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue. (45) Bi Po, (44) a pure man, (43) of wonder, (42) [whose] inheritance is consecration to the Divinity. (41) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (40) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties. (62) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb. (61) [This] tomb [is a] sacred object, (60) a place of righteous wonder. (59) Bi’s tomb (58) [is in] accord [with] the law (57) Bi exist in a unique (and) pure state the abode of the Govenor is pure.. (56) The inheritance of [this] Ruler is joy. (55) [In] this tomb of King Bi (54) lays low a celebrity, [he] is gone. (53) The tomb of Bi (52) is a dormitory [of] love. A place consacreted to the divinity. (51) Thou the vivid image of the race love(d) the mystic order. (50) [He] merits [your] offer of Libations.
This translation of the Cascajal tablet makes it clear that the tablet was written for a local ruler at San Lorenzo called Bi Po. This tablet indicates that Bi Po’s tomb was recognized as a sacred site. It also indicates that the Olmecians believed that if they offered libations at the tombs of their rulers they would gain blessings.
The Cascajal Tablet according to the road builders at the village was found in a mound. The fact that a mound existed where the tablet was found offers considerable support to the idea that the mound where the tablet was found is the tomb of BiPoPo.
The obituary on the Cascajal Tablet may be written about one of the Royals among Olmec heads found at San Lorenzo. The Cascajal Tablet may relate to the personage depicted in San Lorenzo monument 3. Head 3 San Lorenzo
We have found that the names of these rulers is probably found among the symbols associated with the individual Olmec heads. The headband on monument 3 is made up of four parallel ropes encircling the head. In the parallel ropes there are two serrated figures that cross the ropes diagonally.
There is also a plaited diadem or four braids on the back of the figure covered with serrated element. On the side of the head of monument 3, two serrated elements on four parallel lines hang. This element ends with a three-tiered element hanging.
In the Olmec writing the serrated elements means Bi, while the boxes under the serrated element within the four parallel lines would represent the words PoPo. This suggest that the name for monument 3 was probably BiPoPo.
The hanging element on monument 3 is similar to one of the signs on the Cascajal tablet. Although symbol 57 on the Cascajal monument is hard to recognize it appears to include the Bi sign on the top of the symbol. This finding indicates that the BiPoPo of monument 3, is most likely the BiPo(Po) mentioned in the Cascajal Tablet.
Cascajal Sign 57
Stirling said that monument 3 was found at the bottom of a deep ravine half-a-mile southwest of the principal mound of San Lorenzo, along with ceramic potsherds. This is interesting because the village of Cascajal is situated southwest of San Lorenzo.
According to reports of the discovery of the road builders who found the Cascajal Tablet, the tablet came from a mound at Cascajal which was located about a mile from San Lorenzo. The coincidence of finding San Lorenzo Monument 3 in the proximity of the Cascajal mound where the Cascajal Tablet was found suggest that these artifacts concern the same personage. This leads to the possibility that the Cascajal mound was the tomb of BiPoPo.
In conclusion the Cascajal Tablet is an obituary for a Olmec ruler named BiPoPo.
Given the presence of similar signs on the Olmec head called San Lorenzo monument 3, which also read BiPoPo suggest that the Cascajal Tablet was written for the personage depicted in Olmec head 3.
Head 3 San Lorenzo
If the Cascajal Tablet really corresponds to one of the Olmec heads suggest that Cascajal may have been a royal burial site. If this is the case it is conceivable that other tablets relating to Olmec rulers may also be found at this locale, since some of these other mounds may be the “hemispheric” tombs of other Olmec rulers.
References to African Inscriptions:
M. Delafosse, Vai leur langue et leur ysteme d'ecriture,L'Anthropologie, 10 (1910).
Lambert, N. (1970). Medinet Sbat et la Protohistoire de Mauritanie Occidentale, Antiquites Africaines, 4, pp.15-62.
Lambert, N. L'apparition du cuivre dans les civilisations prehistoriques. In C.H. Perrot et al Le Sol, la Parole et 'Ecrit (Paris: Societe Francaise d'Histoire d'Outre Mer) pp.213-226.
R. Mauny, Tableau Geographique de l'Ouest Afrique Noire. Histoire et Archeologie (Fayard);
Kea,R.A. (2004). Expansion and Contractions: World-Historical Change and the Western Sudan World-System (1200/1000BC-1200/1250A.D.) Journal of World-Systems Research, 3, pp.723-816
posted
LMAO You can cut and paste from your deluded websites all you want. Your claims of decipherment hold no water. Fee free to describe your rules on Mande-Olmec writing such that anyone else can read those same inscriptions without your help. LOL
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quote:Originally posted by Chimu: LMAO You can cut and paste from your deluded websites all you want. Your claims of decipherment hold no water. Fee free to describe your rules on Mande-Olmec writing such that anyone else can read those same inscriptions without your help. LOL
I point this out in my decipherment of the script webpage. Soon I will be publishing a book that outlines exactly how to read Olmec and write it. There is also an article at the Scribd site , which explains in detail how I deciphered the Teo Mask. Check this out if you are really interested in learning how to read the scrit.
In this book I explain the Saharan origin of the Olmecs, their writing and civilization.
You never answered these questions about your book in July-August 2007
quote: Originally posted by Clyde Winters: First of all, you have to remember that everything you want to know about a topic can not be found on the WWW. Much of the best knowledge on moct subjects is found in print material. Having said this , let's discuss Athena.
Athena was the goddess of Athens. Her father was Poseidon.
The original Athenians belonged to a matriarchal society. Their societal tradition that originated in Libya, was that they "took their mother's name".
Athena was recognized as the seat of wisdom by the Athenians. This conflicted with the pariarchal traditions of the Indo-Euorpeans that wisdom was a male prerogative.
The Athenians were conconqered by the Aeolians. After this defeat the Athenians were were forced to acknowledge Zeus' patriarchal overlord.
R. Graves, The Greek Myths:1 (Peguin Books,1980) argues that after the Ionian Pelasgians of Athens were defeated by the Aeolians, to gain support of the Archaeans the Athenians had to disown Poseidon's paternity and the tradition of Athena being born from Zeus' head was invented (pp.44-47,162). Herodotus (:iv.180) claimed that Athena disowned her father Poseidon, and begged to be adopted by Zeus.
Quetzalcoatl
From Wikipedia to save time: quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena Other origin tales Fragments attributed by the Christian Eusebius of Caesarea to the semi-legendary Phoenician historian Sanchuniathon, which Eusebius thought had been written before the Trojan war, make Athena instead the daughter of Cronus, a king of Byblos who is said to have visited 'the inhabitable world' and bequeathed Attica to Athena. [edit]Pallas Athena The major competing tradition regarding Athena's parentage involves some of her more mysterious epithets: Pallas, as in Ancient Greek ______ _____ (also Pallantias) and Tritogeneia (also Trito, Tritonis, Tritoneia, Tritogenes). A separate entity named Pallas is invoked – as one or more of Athena's father, sister, foster-sister, or opponent in battle. In every case, Athena kills Pallas, accidentally, and thereby gains the name for herself. When Pallas is Athena's father the events, including her birth, are located near a body of water named Triton or Tritonis. When Pallas is Athena's sister or foster-sister, Athena's father or foster-father is himself Triton, the son and herald of Poseidon. But Athena may be called the daughter of Poseidon and a nymph named Tritonis without involving Pallas. Likewise, Pallas may be Athena's father or opponent without involving Triton. [9][10] [11] On this topic, Walter Burkert says "she is the Pallas of Athens, Pallas Athenaie, just as Hera of Argos is Here Argeie.[12] For the Athenians, Burkert notes, Athena was simply "the Goddess", the theos, certainly an ancient title. Clearly the question is complicated and clearly cannot be asserted as unequivocally as you do or the evidential basis for a whole thesis about Saharan neo-Atlanteans. Is there evidence that Plato in describing Atlantis has Pallas Athene in mind rather than the Athena daughter of Zeus version current in his world- view?
But, more to my original point, do you, Clyde, believe that Atlantis really existed, that Poseidon and (whatever) Athena really existed, and that the Saharan people who eventually became Egyptians, Olmecs, Dravidians, etc. were neo-Atlanteans?
You tried to deny that the ancestors of the Olmecs were neo-Atlanteans but your book says otherwise. Posted August1, 2007
quote: posted 01 August, 2007 07:33 PM I'm confused, Are the Proto-Saharans (Sumerians, Dravidians, Mande) neo-Atlanteans or not. If they are not, why call them that in the book. If they are, why not update the web sites?
In your book, p. 38 you write: "In conclusion, the ancestors of the Olmec people were probably neo-Atlantean Mande speaking Tehenu. They came to Mexico from North Africa and the southern Sahara.. . Due to the new fauna and flora found in Mexico, and the different environmental features the Xiu people found in the New World they "reinvented" their culture to reaffirm their neo-Atlantean origins, but retain the unique ecological conditions they found in Mexico."
How about really answering these questions without tons of spam quotes?
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Yes Bernard I believe that Atlantis existed. Following DuBois I believe that North and Middle Africa were part of Atlantis.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Yes Bernard I believe that Atlantis existed. Following DuBois I believe that North and Middle Africa were part of Atlantis.
Atlantis is a Greek myth. Do you also believe that Poseidon and Athena existed? Were they gods? and that the Saharan people who eventually became Egyptians, Olmecs, Dravidians, etc. were neo-Atlanteans?
How interesting, since obviously you do not understand genetics and genetics does not support your claims-- you are going to argue your case on the basis of Greek mythology. Just like creationists who think that Genesis 1 is a scientific text. LOL
Posts: 833 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Yes Bernard I believe that Atlantis existed. Following DuBois I believe that North and Middle Africa were part of Atlantis.
Atlantis is a Greek myth. Do you also believe that Poseidon and Athena existed? Were they gods? and that the Saharan people who eventually became Egyptians, Olmecs, Dravidians, etc. were neo-Atlanteans?
How interesting, since obviously you do not understand genetics and genetics does not support your claims-- you are going to argue your case on the basis of Greek mythology. Just like creationists who think that Genesis 1 is a scientific text. LOL
Read my book and you will get the answers you seek.
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Jaime it is easy to read these signs once they are broken down into there syllabic elements.
The Olmec signs are homophones. This means that each sign can have multiple meanings. The first thing you do is check the list of syllabic signs already identified.
After this you compare the target sign and the Olmec syllabic signs. If you don't recognize a particular sign from the list, you may want to refer back to the list of Vai signs provided by Delafosse.
Certain signs in the Cascajal stela/tablet appear multiple times.
The Olmec writing on the Cascajal tablet is an obituary for King Bi Po. This writing is written in Hieroglyphic Olmec (Winters,2006). Hieroglyphic Olmec includes multiple linear Olmec signs which are joined together to make pictures of animals, faces and other objects.
Some researchers have recognized insects and other objects in the signs. In reality these signs are made up several different Olmec linear signs (Winters,1998) as noted above when they are broken down into their elements.
The Olmec writing is read right to left top to bottom. Each segment of the Olmec sign has to be broken down into its individual syllabic sign. In most cases the Olmec signs includes two or more syllabic characters. The Olmec signs can be interpreted as follows:
To read the various Cascajal Inscriptions you have to separate each sign into its syllabic element. Once this is done you can read the inscription.
Transliteration of the Cascajal Signs
1. La fe ta gyo 2. Bi yu 3. Pa po yu 4. Se ta I su 5. Ta kye 6. Beb be 7. Bi Po Yu to 8. Tu fa ku 9. Tu pa pot u 10. Ta gbe pa 11. i-tu 12. Bi Yu yo po 13. Kye gyo 14. Po lu 15. Fe ta yo i 16. Be kye 17. Fe gina 18. Po bi po tu 19. Lu kye gyo to 20. Kye tu a pa 21. Yu gyo i 22. Pa ku pa 23. Po yu 24. Day u kye da 25. Po ta kye tap o 26. Ta gbe 27. Bi Fa yu 28. Bi Yu / Paw
Translation
Reading the Cascajal Tablet from right to left we have the following:
(8) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (7) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties.
(6) This abode is possessed by the Governor . (5)…. (4) Bi Po Po.
(3) Bi (was), (2) an Artisan desires to be consecrated to the divinity. (1) (and He) merits thou offer of libations.
(14). Admiration (for) the cult specialist’s hemisphere tomb. (13) The inheritance of thou vital spirit is consecration to the divinity.
(12) In a place of righteous admiration, (11) Pure Bi (in a) pure abode
(10) A pure mark of admiration (is) this hemispheric tomb.
(9) [Here] lays low (the celebrity) [he] is gone.
(22) The place of righteousness, [is] (21) the pure hemispheric tomb
(20) (19) Thou (art) obedient to the Order. (18) Hold upright the Order (and) the divinity of the sacred cult.
(17) Pure Admiration this place of, (16) Bi the Vital Spirit. (15) [Truly this is ] a place consecrated to the divinity and propriety.
27) Lay low (the celebrity) to go to , (26) love the mystic order—thou vivid image of the race,
(25) The pure Govenor and (24) Devotee [of the Order lies in this] hemispheric tomb ,desires [to be] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue, (23) [He] merits thou offer of Libations.
(34) Command Respect. (33)….this place of admiration. (32) Thou sacred inheritance is propriety. (31) The Govenor commands existence in a unique state, (31) [in] this ruler’s hemispheric tomb. (29) The Royal (28) [was] a vigorous man.
(36) The pure habitation (35) [of a ]Ruler obedient to the Order. (37) This abode is possessed by the governor. (38) Admiration to you [who art] obedient to the Order. (49) Pure admiration [for this] tomb. (48) Thou hold upright the pure law. (47). Pure admiration [for this tomb]. (46) [It] acts [as] a talisman effective in providing one with virtue. (45) Bi Po, (44) a pure man, (43) of wonder, (42) [whose] inheritance is consecration to the Divinity. (41) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb, (40) desiring to be endowed with mysterious faculties. (62) Bi Po lays in state in the tomb. (61) [This] tomb [is a] sacred object, (60) a place of righteous wonder. (59) Bi’s tomb (58) [is in] accord [with] the law (57) Bi exist in a unique (and) pure state the abode of the Govenor is pure.. (56) The inheritance of [this] Ruler is joy. (55) [In] this tomb of King Bi (54) lays low a celebrity, [he] is gone. (53) The tomb of Bi (52) is a dormitory [of] love. A place consacreted to the divinity. (51) Thou the vivid image of the race love(d) the mystic order. (50) [He] merits [your] offer of Libations.
This translation of the Cascajal tablet makes it clear that the tablet was written for a local ruler at San Lorenzo called Bi Po. This tablet indicates that Bi Po’s tomb was recognized as a sacred site. It also indicates that the Olmecans believed that if they offered libations at the tombs of their rulers they would gain blessings.
There are other mounds at Cascajal. There is the possibility that other writings might be found in the same locale and we may learn the identities of even more Olmec rulers at San Lorenzo.
posted
Clyde - To your knowledge, has any Olmec DNA been tested? My guess is no, which is very strange. In todays news, ancient poop from a cave in Oregon has yielded DNA from 14,000 years ago, the initial thought is that they will be found to be Siberians, (might be an offshoot of the Mal'ta crowd). I don't know if they know it, but those ancient Siberians were Africans, so the results may never be known. Just like the DNA from the Olmec, will not be known, as long as they have control of it.
But I see that you still feel that the Olmec were west Africans. My own feeling is that logically it doesn't fit. There was no comparable civilization in west Africa at the time, but there was one in China, and it so happens that they were made to feel unwelcome at times. We already know that the Bering strait was a well worn track from thousands of years earlier, and some people have commented on the similarities of Olmec and Shang script. To me the evidence suggests that the Olmec came from China, did I mention their common love of Jade.
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I've never been persuaded that the Olmec/West African link is proven.
Moreover, I am familiar with the Mende/Vai languages, including their scripts, which are related and of Kushite origin. Again, I am not persuaded that the Olmec scripit is of west African origin.
Nonetheless, I still have on open mind on the matter. Just my two cents worth.
Respect to Clyde
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posted
Mike I never said the Olmec came from West Africa. The Mande people were primarily living in the Fezzan (North Africa), Mauretania (Tichitt) around 1200 BC when the Olmec arrived in America.
The Shang were probably not the Olmecs. The Mande people also lived in China, in fact the Mande founded the Xia Dynasty, the first of China's three Dynasties. Blacks in China
The Olmec/Xia writing is just a varient of the Libyco-Berber writing.
The Mande and Dravidians introduced this writing to the Indus Valley and throughout China.
.
Africans also loved jade. Green stone was popular among Africans in the Middle Africa, the original home of the Olmecs. This green stone found on many ancient sites is called Amazonite. Africans made beads out of Amazonite which was mined in the massifs of the Central Sahara, Tibesti and the Valley.
See:Harry Thurston, Secrets of the sands: The revelations of Egypt's Everlasting Oasis (New York: Arcade Publishing,2003) pg.113.
The Mande probably took this love of jade/green stone with them to China and Mexico.
posted
I can't argue too much because, quite frankly, the Olmec have me confused. Their monumental heads look central African, yet all their other statues look coastal. Their other statues also look exactly like the mockups from Siberia, Ukraine, and southeastern Europe. But these people, because of the signature of their artifacts ( steatopygia females), must be Grimaldi (Khoisan).
It would be such a great help if the Chinese would swallow their pride and admit their Black heritage. Then perhaps, we could get our hands on some real Xia/Shang artifacts and compare.
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: I can't argue too much because, quite frankly, the Olmec have me confused. Their monumental heads look central African, yet all their other statues look coastal. Their other statues also look exactly like the mockups from Siberia, Ukraine, and southeastern Europe. But these people, because of the signature of their artifacts ( steatopygia females), must be Grimaldi (Khoisan).
It would be such a great help if the Chinese would swallow their pride and admit their Black heritage. Then perhaps, we could get our hands on some real Xia/Shang artifacts and compare.
I don't think you have really studied the Olmecs. You have to look at the dating of the artifacts to discuss ethnicity. The Olmec artifacts from LaVenta, San Lorenzo and the Gulf Coast are predominately Negroid.
You may be confused by the Las Bocas figures.
We don't have firm dates for these artifacts because they have mainly come from looters. These artifacts are frequently published, but Las Bocas is a minor site. Given the origin of these artifacts you make a big mistake accepting them a generic examples of Olmec art. It is the Negro type which has been found as a result of archaeological excavation.
posted
Chimu - On what do you base that statement on? By your question, the suggestion is that you have checked.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Clyde - Are you saying that some or all of these are NOT Olmec?
What I am saying is that the first picture is an artifact from Veracruz which may have firm dating. The Las Bolas figures on the otherhand are all the result of looters selling them on the art market. As a result, we don't know there dates. Moreover, these figures are hollow, while Olmec artifacts from the Olmec heartland are solid.
posted
Clyde - Fine, I can work with that. But the fact is that figure1 is what I would call "Typical Black" That is: Black, but no prominent features. Whereas the monumental heads DO have prominent features. Additionally, figure1 is to me, more similar to the ancient Blacks of East Europe and Russia. Note pictures below.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Clyde - Fine, I can work with that. But the fact is that figure1 is what I would call "Typical Black" That is: Black, but no prominent features. Whereas the monumental heads DO have prominent features. Additionally, figure1 is to me, more similar to the ancient Blacks of East Europe and Russia. Note pictures below.
This whole issue of representation of ancient populations is confusing. Eurocentrists are doing everything they can to confuse history.
You are an astute observer of mankind. Many people on the otherhand,have a view of what a Negro looks like based on white supremist attitudes they digested as children going to school.
Back in the 1980's many of the reconstructions of the Cro-Magnon man and Neanderthal made them appear Negroid. In the U.S., "scholars" rejected these depictions of these groups, and went back to creating pictures that made these groups appear to look like hippies in the 1960's.
Due to the brain washing of most, if not practically all Blacks worldwide--they can not see any person as Black that does not match the standard Negro, constructed by Europeans. This means that where you an I might see a Negro/Black/ African, someone else may see some other ethnic group.
posted
Clyde - Yes, it is confusing for us all. Having to depend on Caucasians and Mongols for material, and then having to filter through their B.S. is frustrating and taxing.
Have you noticed that the Japanese have apparently joined the Europeans and Turks in producing bogus artifacts so as to claim ethnic kinship? How long before the Chinese start to claim that the Xia and Shang were Mongol?
This figure is now being bandied about as the "Jomon Venus"
The fact that it doesn't look anything like this REAL Jomon (below), and is obviously Mongol not African, doesn't seem to matter. They know that if you keep telling the "Big Lie" long enough, people will start to believe it.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Clyde - Yes, it is confusing for us all. Having to depend on Caucasians and Mongols for material, and then having to filter through their B.S. is frustrating and taxing.
Have you noticed that the Japanese have apparently joined the Europeans and Turks in producing bogus artifacts so as to claim ethnic kinship? How long before the Chinese start to claim that the Xia and Shang were Mongol?
This figure is now being bandied about as the "Jomon Venus"
The fact that it doesn't look anything like this REAL Jomon (below), and is obviously Mongol not African, doesn't seem to matter. They know that if you keep telling the "Big Lie" long enough, people will start to believe it.
The Chinese can not lie about the origins of China because of the extensive textual sources on ancient Chinese history. In these text they clearly state that the early Chinese were Li min "black people". If they tried to change this fact a cursory reading of the Chinese literature would prove that the original Xia and Shang were not Mongols.
If you intend to study this period you should learn Chinese and Japanese.
Formerly, the Japanese did not mind admitting their "Black" heritage. But over the last 20 years they have tried to move away from the fact that at the base of the Japanese language we find Dravido-African languages.
posted
^^Neither Clyde nor I, claimed that ALL Chinese were Black. Blacks migrated there 50,000 years ago. Get an encyclopedia and read about haplogroup "D"
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^^Neither Clyde nor I, claimed that ALL Chinese were Black. Blacks migrated there 50,000 years ago. Get an encyclopedia and read about haplogroup "D"
LOL. Try again. One, 50,000 years ago people had plesiomorphic features. And no evidence as to their skin tone. And Clyde is claiming the Xia Dynasty was Black. The Xia Dynasty was only 4000 years ago.
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posted
The African type can be traced to the African type that lived in China. This Negro type was characterized by sindonty. The earliest examples of sindonty date back to the Choukoudian/Zhoudian Upper Cave type not the sundonty pattern which arrived in the Pacific with the classical mongoloid people found in Indonesia. This classical mongoloids entered Southeast Asia and the Pacific after African speaking Manding and Dravidian speaking people had already settled much of the Pacific. This is supported by the Sindonty pattern found among the Japanese ho have a Dravidian and African substratum in their language. Secondly, archaeological research makes it clear that Negroids were very common to ancient China. F. Weidenreich ( in Bull. Nat. Hist. Soc. Peiping 13, (1938-30) noted that the one of the earliest skulls from north China found in the Upper Cave of Chou-k'ou-tien, was of a Oceanic Negroid/Melanesoid " (p.163).
These blacks were the dominant group in South China. Kwang-chih Chang,writing in the 4th edition of Archaeology of ancient China (1986) wrote that:" by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the population in North China and that in the southwest and in Indochina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and OCEANIC NEGROID races respectively…."(p.64). By the Upper Pleistocene the Negroid type was typified by the Liu-chiang skulls from Yunnan (Chang, 1986, p.69).
Many researchers believe that the Yi of Southern China were the ancestors of the Polynesian and Melanesian people.
Negroid skeletons dating to the early periods of Southern Chinese history have been found in Shangdong, Jiantung, Sichuan, Yunnan, Pearl River delta and Jiangxi especially at the initial sites of Chingliengang (Ch'ing-lien-kang) and Mazhiabang (Ma chia-pang) phases ( see: K.C. Chang, The archaeology of ancient China, (Yale University Press:New Haven,1977) p.76) . The Chingliengang culture is often referred to as the Ta-wen-k'ou (Dawenkou) culture of North China. The presence of Negroid skeletal remains at Dawenkou sites make it clear that Negroes were still in the North in addition to South China. The Dawenkou culture predates the Lung-shan culture which is associated with the Xia civilization.
The founder of the Xia civilization was Yu. The Great Yu was the regulator of the waters and the builder of canals. He is also alleged to be the inventor of wetfield adriculture. Wolfram Eberhard, in The Local culture of South and East China (Leiden,1968), maintained that Yu came from the south and established the Xia dynasty in Shansi.
Archaeological evidence supports this view. The foreunner of the Xia civilization was the Lung-shan (Longshan) culture. The Taosi ruins , a Longshan between the Fenhe and Chongshan ranges is considered a middle and late Xia period site. Another important Longshanoid site is Qingliangang. The Qingliangang culture is a decendant of the Hemudu culture and dates to the fifth millennium B.C.(K.C. Chang, "In search of China's beginnings new light on an old civilization", American Scientist, 69 (1981) pp.148-160:154).
The oldest neolithic culture in China is the Hemudu culture in northern Zhejiang province. This culture group had incised and cord-impressed pottery, rice and domesticated water buffalo, dog and pig (Chang, 1981: p.152). The Hemudu pottery is reminiscent of pottery found along the coastal areas of southeastern China and Taiwan (Chang, 1981: p.154). This indicates that southern Chinese, who were predominantly Black early settled those parts of China associated with the Xia and Shang civilizations.
In the Chinese literature the Blacks were called li-min, Kunlung, Ch'iang (Qiang), Yi and Yueh. The founders of the Xia Dynasty and the Shang Dynasties were blacks. These blacks were called Yueh and Qiang. The modern Chinese are descendants of the Zhou. The second Shang Dynasty ( situated at Anyang) was founded by the Yin. As a result this dynasty is called Shang-Yin. The Yin or Oceanic Mongoloid type is associated with the Austronesian speakers ( Kwang-chih Chang, "Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China", Current Anthropology, 5 (1964) pp.359-375 :375). The Austronesian or Oceanic Mongoloid type were called Yin, Feng, Yen, Zhiu Yi and Lun Yi.
During the Anyang-Shang period, the Qiang lived in Ch'iang Fang, a country to the west of Yin-Shang . The Qiang people were often referred to as the Ta Qiang "many Qiang", they were used as agricultural workers, and used in Yin-Shang ancestral rites as sacrifice victims.
In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants as identical to the Oceanic type ( Kwang-chih Chang, The archareology of ancient China, (New Haven,1977) p.42; G.H.R. von Koenigswald, A giant fossil hominoid from the pleistocene of Southern China, Anthropology Pap. Am Museum of Natural History, no.43, 1952, pp.301-309). Although Negritos were also established in north and southern China by the beginning of the Recent (Holocene) period the populations in North China and that in southern China and IndoChina had become sufficiently differentiated to be designated as Mongoloid and Negroid-Oceanic respectively, both having evolved out of a common Upper Plestocene substratum as represented by the Tzu-yang and Liu-Chiang skulls.
In addition to Oceanic Blacks in Southeast Asia and southern China shortly before the Christian era Africoids of the Mediterranean type entered these areas by way of India. Much of the archaeology in southern China is related to the Southeast Asian patterns, with numerous finds of chipped stone of the type found in Szechewan,Kwangsi .Yunan and in the western part of Kwangtung as far as the Pearl River delta.( Chang, 1977, p.76. ) Neolithic culture of southern China as the people were parallel to southeastern development. It seems from the evidence that in China there were several major areas where the Neolithic way of life characterized by farming for food, use of pottery and the making of stone instruments.
In Southern China the most well known early cultures were the Ta-p'enK'eng culture of the southeastern coast, cultures dating to the 5th millenium. The Ta-p'en-K'eng sites have a chracteristic cord-marked pottery dating to before theird millennium. A radio- carbon date is available for this culture of 4450-4350 BC. The color of the pottery ranges from buff to dark brown, the principal shapes of the vessels are large globular jars and bowls. The people of this culture also made many stone sinkers and dugout canoes.There is believed to have been an early horticultural revolution in the tropical regions of southeast Asia, with the domestication of several cultigens. As in Africa this culture was Aqualithic with most of the people living on mounds and pilled houses. These horticulturalist ate aqualtic animals such as fish and shellfish, and grew root crops such as yam and taro .The Ta-p'en-K'eng site has provided much insight into their agricultural origins as indicated by the great variety of cord marks on the pottery demonstrates. The habi tat of the ancient people who made this ware at Ta-p'en-K' eng, was widespread in IndoChina and even in southern China and Japan. The Hoabinhian culture of Vietnam and that of Ta-p' en-K'eng, were characterized by cord-marked pottery which is identical in both places , and it is possible that the Yang -shao site at Huang Ho basin in North China may have also been founded by blacks in southern China who probably been the cultivation of rice . In the southeast southerners began at Hupeh and Kuangsi the cultivation of means of artificial irrigation and by terracing of the mountain slopes. These same Austronesians were already using bronze before the Chinese. The women's standing was high, she participated in the worship which consisted of a mountain and snake cults.There is evidence from the physical anthropologist that skeletons from Shantung and Kiangsu show resemblances to the Negroid type of southern Chinese rather than Mongoloid, especially at the intial Ch'ing-lien -Kang and Ma chia-pang phases. As a result of this evidence it seems that agriculture was widely practiced in Southeast Asia and China long before the full impact of farming was felt in the North among the Chinese.
Neolithic technology in south China is typified by hunting with the bow and arrow. The stone inventories include shoulder axes, as those found at Ya-an in Sikang, and the island of Hainan. The ceremics are characterized by the long persistence of corded red ware. There was also painted pottery,black pottery, stone knives and sickles and pottery tripods , styles that later were duplicated in bronze. The people practiced single burials the appearence of decapitated heads at many sites in China suggest war and the expansion of the Chinese southward.
In ancient times due to the Chinese being a nomadic group, they probably cremated their dead and learned to bury their dead from the Blacks. The southern Chinese probably had their own writing system at an early date considering the - fact that they were well known traders and most trader-groups developed a script to keep records, yet we can not be sure of this fact. Moreover, the appearance of similar pottery signs on South Chinese pottery and North Chinese pottery indicate a common ideology for both groups.
Many of the elements of southern Chinese cultures and the impliments found in this area and Southeast Asia show an interrelationship. The people who live in Southeast Asia today speak the Austro-Asiatic languages, which are closely related to the Austronesian group. As indicated by the languages of the aborigines Ta-p'en-K'eng sites are found spoke Austronesian languages, the cultures of these groups were also Austronesian according to Dr. Shun-sheng Ling .
As in the African aqualithic, an extensive mound culture existed in China, an area strectching from i ts plateau in the west to the Western coast of the Pacific ocean, it includes the Huang-Huai(the Yellow River and the Huai River) plain of North China and the plain of the lower valley of the Yangtze River of central China, these mounds lie in the Ancient line of the Austronesian habitation. In accordance with oral tradi tion and Chinese proto-history mounds were in existence during the time of Huangti, and Fu-Hsi as reflected in the legendary narrative of the burial of Tai-Hao at Wan Chiul - chiu.
The mound culture began around 3,000 BC in China 7,000 years after a similar cul ture had developed in central and North Africa, which moved step by step to the lower valley of the Yangtze River, starting originally from the lower valley of the Yellow River. By about 1200 BC, the people practiced agriculture and ate aquatic animals.At the Kiangsu Province mound site called the Hu Shu culture,the mounds were man-made knolls called 'terraced sites '. The mounds are flat on the top, here the people placed their dwellings. These mounds served three purposes i) burial mounds, ii) religious places (i.e.,high ground) and iii) habitation. The mounds are believed to have been introduced by the people to China from the Euphrates-Tigris valley who are believed to have introduced the arts .
In conclusion, the sindonty pattern is an African feature. C.G. Turner's research makes it clear that the early Americans were sindonty not sundonty (see: Turner, "Teeth and prehistory in Asia, Scientific American,(Feb.1989) 88-96), in fact he places the origin of these sindonty people in Northern China at Zhoukoudian Upper Cave. An African influence in the rise of man in this area is clearly supported by the archaeological, toponymic and linguistic evidence.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Clyde - I don't know why you would spend so much time answering Chimu. Firstly, you know he was speaking nonsense for the sake of speaking nonsense. If he wanted to speak truthfully, how easy would it have been for him to lookup homo-Sapien, before posting? Secondly, when they are really that ignorant, I find it best to leave them that way.
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