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Author Topic: Northern Arab Sudanese look like the average Black African
Habari
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I'm always surprise the way in the western media they try to emphasize the fact that the Sudanese have an aquiline nose and light skin...it is true that they mixed with Arabs like Ethiopians and Northern Somalis but to a lesser extent...they are much darker than the majority of Ethiopians or Northern Somalis or Southern Africans(who are lighter than most Africans)...here is the Arab ambassador in the UK, the majority of the so called Arab Sudanese look like him, the majority look like West African, Southern Sudanese and some with a mix of Arab blood, the majority just look like Black African although they tend to look more like broad faced Africans:
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Whatbox
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quote:
I'm always surprise the way in the western media they try to emphasize the fact that the Sudanese have an aquiline nose and light skin...
Yes... sometimes I think this but other times I say ... who cares?

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[Razz] [Wink]

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Yonis2
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quote:
Habari wrote:
Northern Arab Sudanese look like the average Black African

Tell that to them and they'll stick a kalashnikov up your ass. [Big Grin]
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argyle104
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Habari the coo..coo..coo wrote:

quote:

Hey coo..coo..coo why don't you use some of that psycho time you spend worrying about features and worry about those Indians that control your country and those 70 year old wrinkly white yettis bedding your young boys.


You know I get the feeling that you obsess features because your ass is 500 miles past the city of ugly.


Have a good nights rest coo..coo..coo. : )

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argyle104
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And for those not in the know coo..coo..coo got what he said from the Sudanese Ambassador to the U.S.
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argyle104
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argyle104
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Anybody notice how childish The forum's butler i.e. Alive-(What Box) is?


Alive-(What Box), how did your teeth get those shapes. Why don't you go somewhere and fixem, them motherfuckers is spooky.


Guys, Alive-(What Box) posted his picture to the forum a year or so ago and his teeth were shaped like the Keebler Elves.


Alive-(What Box) this is going to be your new name.....


"Keebler Teeth"


LOL : )

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Habari
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quote:
Tell that to them and they'll stick a kalashnikov up your ass.
They don't even fight in Darfur or Southern Sudan, they just send surrogates:"Arab" militia who are even darker than you average African(I mean they live in the Sahel-Sahara)...
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argyle104
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Hey Alive-(What Box), oh I'm sorry Geeves (since you are the forum's butler).


Damn, I forgot you've got a new name. Well in that case:


Hey Keebler Teeth


You say that you are from Yompton. Since that is the case then you probably don't know who your father is do you?

Your mother probably doesn't know who he is from the hundreds of guys she's been in the sack with either.

I guess that explains you. LOL! : )

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Yonis2
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Lmao [Big Grin]

Your funny in a sick way.

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Habari
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quote:
Yes... sometimes I think this but other times I say ... who cares?
So why do you post anything?
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Whatbox
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This bitch actually mention my name?

Oh I'm Jeeves?

quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:
Anybody notice how childish The forum's butler i.e. Alive-(What Box) is?

No, but I've noticed how non-childish your mom is.

quote:
Originally posted by Habari:
quote:
Yes... sometimes I think this but other times I say ... who cares?
So why do you post anything?
Oh, I just thought I'd let you know, and I saw some nice videos.

Speaking of videos, I wonder why they made argyle so phreaking upset?

Yeah, but my indifference to your thread...

It's pretty much the reason I don't really post in your threads anymore unless I see an ignorant comment.

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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:
Hey Alive-(What Box), oh I'm sorry Geeves (since you are the forum's butler).


Damn, I forgot you've got a new name. Well in that case:


Hey Keebler Teeth


You say that you are from Yompton.

Perhaps you should come visit, so you could come and get straightened out. Or flattened out [Smile] .

quote:
Anybody notice how childish The forum's butler i.e. Alive-(What Box) is?


Alive-(What Box), how did your teeth get those shapes.

ROFL!

I don't recall posting an image of me showing my teeth, but you're funny.

Only thing I don't get is what pissed you off about my post. :??? [Confused]

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I don't get it? Why get so upset over the posting of some black babilicious college eye-candy?

This doesn't matchup with your frustrated remarks about black men 'sleeping with all other races/ethnicities of women but their own'

Unless...

You suffer from the same white male disorder syndrome found in Francess Cress Welsing's Papers, black male penis envy/lust, which Malcom X wrote about as well and I've even seen admitted in some hilarious forums!

Argyle's likely disorder.

Perhaps we should call you Agatha, or something such. I'll just call you Argly. [Smile]

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Chimu
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Some populations do show admixture or recent migration or just plain Saharan features not common in Sub Saharan Africa.
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Shoot, just do an image search for the Rashaida of Sudan
Rashaida of Sudan

The Baggara of Sudan are not the only Arabic people in SUdan. They are just the largest and probably the one with most admixture or just arabization of southern populations.

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argyle104
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Look Chimu...


Ric Flair burns love letters.


Get over it.


LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL

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Chimu
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 -
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 -
 -

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argyle104
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Alive-(What Box) wrote:

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Your mama is in a profession......


Well let me just say, the profession she is in, is one where most of the women have chipped teeth.


AAAAAAAAAAAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAARAAAARRRRRRGHAHAHA!

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argyle104
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Chimu,


Soap and water ain't your enemy.


You don't have to go through life smellin like you've just played 9 physically grueling games of 36.

LOL : )

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argyle104
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Hey Alive-(What Box)


Your orthodonist just called


bwahahaheeeeeeeeeeeee!

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Chimu
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We know argyle likes soap. He constantly picks it up in the jail showers.
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argyle104
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Chimu wrote:

---------------------------
We know argyle likes soap. He constantly picks it up in the jail showers.
---------------------------


Well I had an internship at the jail and one of the duties was to pick up any stray items that was on the floor.


Can you answer a question?


Why is it that your picture is in 1 out of every 6 jail cells with an appointment date on it? : )

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Whatbox
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If you mean to imply that certain looks necissarily qualify some Sudaneseas being of non-African stock, and assumably, that this has bearings on the phenetic makeup of Africans said to be the Ancient and *indigenous* Kemtwy ["Egyptians"], then, Chimu, do you comprehend the following?

quote:

J. Edwards, A. Leathers, et al.

"...based on Howell’s sampling Fordisc 2.0 authors state that "there are no races, only populations," yet it is clear that Howell was intent on providing known groups that would be distributed among the continental "racial" groups.
We tested the accuracy and effectiveness of Fordisc 2.0 using twelve cranial measurements from a homogeneous population from the X-Group period of Sudanese Nubia (350CE-550CE). When the Fordisc program classified the adult X-Group crania, only 51 (57.3%) of 89 individuals were classified within groups from Africa. Others were placed in such diverse groups as Polynesian (11.24%), European (7.86%), Japanese (4.49%), Native American (3.37%), Peruvian (3.36%), Australian (1.12), Tasmanian (1.12%), and Melanesian (1.12%). The implications of these findings suggest that classifying populations, whether by geography or by "race", is not morphologically or biologically accurate because of the wide variation even in homogeneous populations."



Forensic Misclassification of
Ancient Nubian Crania:
Implications for Assumptions
about Human Variation -April 2005, Current Anthropology:

It is well known that human biological variation is principally clinal (i.e., structured as gradients) and not racial (i.e., structured as a small number of fairly discrete
groups)
. We have shown that for a temporally and geographically homogeneous East African population, the most widely used “racial”
program fails to identify the skeletal material accurately. The assignment of skeletal racial origin is based principally upon stereotypical features found most frequently in the most geographically distant populations.
While this is useful in some contexts (for example, sorting
skeletal material of largely West African ancestry
from skeletal material of largely Western European ancestry), it fails to identify populations that originate elsewhere and misrepresents fundamental patterns of human biological diversity.

[Hence, since traits vary clinally West Africans and Europeans should be out of the phenetic equation when dealing in modern East Africa.]


quote:
Ancient Egypt Anatomy of a Civilisation(Paperback) by Barry Kemp (Author) Publisher: Routledge; 2 edition (December 12, 2005)
p.54

"Moving to the opposite geographic extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty(Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile Valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into Palestine. The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans"


And what it means for any presupposed notion of a phenetic correlation with genotype vs. the reality of the phenetic correlation with geographic location (and the attached climatic properties thereof).

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http://iheartguts.com/shop/bmz_cache/7/72e040818e71f04c59d362025adcc5cc.image.300x261.jpg http://www.nastynets.net/www.mousesafari.com/lohan-facial.gif

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Chimu
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Hmmmmm...

No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?

quote:
Here, both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations can be considered to be hybrids of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa and the Near East. Therefore, the proximity of Yemenis to Ethiopian and Egyptian populations in the MDS plot and the insignificant southeastern African contribution revealed by the admixture analysis could reflect only the trivial fact that the northeastern African and Yemeni populations are all hybrids of the same basic components.
quote:
On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas »40% is of Caucasoid derivation (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174).
quote:
Considering both paternal and maternal lineages, only 5.4% of the mtDNAs can be classified as Caucasoid (table 3), whereas 25.4% of the Ethiopian Y chromosomes have a clear Caucasoid origin (12f2–8 kb; table 6). If one also includes as Caucasoid mtDNA types the ambiguous haplogroup U and the 10 DdeI10394AluI10397 (22) haplotypes that did not show any tested non-Caucasoid feature, there could be a maximum of 27.0% of “Caucasoid-like” mtDNAs in the Ethiopian population.
On the other hand, considering that the 12f2–8 kb allele can account for as much as 44% of the Caucasoid Y chromosomes (the highest observed incidence of this allele), a male genetic admixture of 57.7% between Caucasoids and Africans is obtained in Ethiopia. Interestingly, the average level of admixture estimated from our mtDNA and Y-chromosome data (42.3%) is very similar to estimates based on autosomal studies (40%) (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174).
However, our data suggest that Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males.

quote:
The frequency of the DdeI10394AluI10397 (11) haplotype is of interest in this regard. As shown in table 4, this haplotype is virtually absent in Caucasoid populations (Indians excepted) and other sub-SaharanAfricans.
It has been found in India (Passarino et al. 1996c), in eastern Asia, and in peoples who migrated very early from eastern Asia (i.e., Australians, Papua New Guineans, and Amerindians: Ballinger et al. 1992; Torroni et al. 1992, 1993a, 1993b, 1994a, 1994c, 1994d). On the basis of its distribution and antiquity (estimated at 40,250–80,500 years ago [Chen et al. 1995] and 30,250–60,500 years ago [Passarino et al. 1996a]), we have suggested elsewhere that it preceded the split between proto-Indians and proto–eastern Asians (Passarino et al. 1996a, 1996c).
This haplotype reaches a frequency of »20% in Ethiopia and has never been observed in mtDNA molecules of the other African or Caucasoid lineages (Torroni et al. 1994b, 1996; Chen et al. 1995; Passarino et al. 1996c; present study). Thus, it is likely that the Ethiopian Ethiopian and Asian DdeI10394–AluI10397 (11) haplotypes have a common origin. If so, then this marker either (1) has been acquired by Ethiopians through interchanges with Asians (indicating an Asiatic component in the Ethiopian genetic structure) or (2) was present in the ancient Ethiopian population and was carried by groups who migrated out of Africa. In the case of the second hypothesis, the very low (1%–2%) frequency of this marker in the Middle East (table 4; and A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, unpublished data) would support the hypothesis of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa via the eastern Africa–western India route (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 195).

quote:
The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. With the exception of some surveys on the general Ethiopian populations, little is known about the degree of genetic differentiation between the Amhara and the Oromo. Aim : The study seeks to investigate the genetic structure of these two heterogeneous Ethiopian populations and to characterize their relationships with other African and Mediterranean peoples. Subjects and methods : Amhara and Oromo individuals ( n = 171) were analysed for three RFLPs (restriction fragment length polymorphisms) of the COL1A2 gene. To better define the genetic relationship between the two Ethiopian groups, and also between African and non-African peoples, genetic distances among Amhara, Oromo and other populations were estimated using the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies, and the allele frequencies of 16 additional classical markers. Results : le2 analysis applied to the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies showed a small but statistically significant degree of heterogeneity between the two Ethiopian populations. Combining the information obtained from the three RFLP markers, a significant level of differentiation (Fst = 0.0147, p = 0.036) was also detected between Amhara and Oromo. The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position. This pattern is consistent with the location of the two Ethiopian groups in other genetic analysis and with cultural data. Conclusions : The present findings suggest the presence of a differential level of genetic relatedness with south-Saharan peoples in the two Ethiopian groups, which could reflect their different history and seems to indicate the existence of genetic sub-structure within the country.

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Wolofi
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimu:
Hmmmmm...

No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?

quote:
Here, both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations can be considered to be hybrids of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa and the Near East. Therefore, the proximity of Yemenis to Ethiopian and Egyptian populations in the MDS plot and the insignificant southeastern African contribution revealed by the admixture analysis could reflect only the trivial fact that the northeastern African and Yemeni populations are all hybrids of the same basic components.
quote:
On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas »40% is of Caucasoid derivation (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174).
quote:
Considering both paternal and maternal lineages, only 5.4% of the mtDNAs can be classified as Caucasoid (table 3), whereas 25.4% of the Ethiopian Y chromosomes have a clear Caucasoid origin (12f2–8 kb; table 6). If one also includes as Caucasoid mtDNA types the ambiguous haplogroup U and the 10 DdeI10394AluI10397 (22) haplotypes that did not show any tested non-Caucasoid feature, there could be a maximum of 27.0% of “Caucasoid-like” mtDNAs in the Ethiopian population.
On the other hand, considering that the 12f2–8 kb allele can account for as much as 44% of the Caucasoid Y chromosomes (the highest observed incidence of this allele), a male genetic admixture of 57.7% between Caucasoids and Africans is obtained in Ethiopia. Interestingly, the average level of admixture estimated from our mtDNA and Y-chromosome data (42.3%) is very similar to estimates based on autosomal studies (40%) (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174).
However, our data suggest that Caucasoid gene flow into the Ethiopian gene pool occurred predominantly through males.

quote:
The frequency of the DdeI10394AluI10397 (11) haplotype is of interest in this regard. As shown in table 4, this haplotype is virtually absent in Caucasoid populations (Indians excepted) and other sub-SaharanAfricans.
It has been found in India (Passarino et al. 1996c), in eastern Asia, and in peoples who migrated very early from eastern Asia (i.e., Australians, Papua New Guineans, and Amerindians: Ballinger et al. 1992; Torroni et al. 1992, 1993a, 1993b, 1994a, 1994c, 1994d). On the basis of its distribution and antiquity (estimated at 40,250–80,500 years ago [Chen et al. 1995] and 30,250–60,500 years ago [Passarino et al. 1996a]), we have suggested elsewhere that it preceded the split between proto-Indians and proto–eastern Asians (Passarino et al. 1996a, 1996c).
This haplotype reaches a frequency of »20% in Ethiopia and has never been observed in mtDNA molecules of the other African or Caucasoid lineages (Torroni et al. 1994b, 1996; Chen et al. 1995; Passarino et al. 1996c; present study). Thus, it is likely that the Ethiopian Ethiopian and Asian DdeI10394–AluI10397 (11) haplotypes have a common origin. If so, then this marker either (1) has been acquired by Ethiopians through interchanges with Asians (indicating an Asiatic component in the Ethiopian genetic structure) or (2) was present in the ancient Ethiopian population and was carried by groups who migrated out of Africa. In the case of the second hypothesis, the very low (1%–2%) frequency of this marker in the Middle East (table 4; and A. S. Santachiara Benerecetti, unpublished data) would support the hypothesis of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa via the eastern Africa–western India route (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 195).

quote:
The present composition of the Ethiopian population is the result of a complex and extensive intermixing of different peoples of North African, Near and Middle Eastern, and south-Saharan origin. The two main groups inhabiting the country are the Amhara, descended from Arabian conquerors, and the Oromo, the most important group among the Cushitic people. With the exception of some surveys on the general Ethiopian populations, little is known about the degree of genetic differentiation between the Amhara and the Oromo. Aim : The study seeks to investigate the genetic structure of these two heterogeneous Ethiopian populations and to characterize their relationships with other African and Mediterranean peoples. Subjects and methods : Amhara and Oromo individuals ( n = 171) were analysed for three RFLPs (restriction fragment length polymorphisms) of the COL1A2 gene. To better define the genetic relationship between the two Ethiopian groups, and also between African and non-African peoples, genetic distances among Amhara, Oromo and other populations were estimated using the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies, and the allele frequencies of 16 additional classical markers. Results : le2 analysis applied to the COL1A2 allele and haplotype frequencies showed a small but statistically significant degree of heterogeneity between the two Ethiopian populations. Combining the information obtained from the three RFLP markers, a significant level of differentiation (Fst = 0.0147, p = 0.036) was also detected between Amhara and Oromo. The genetic distance analysis showed the separation between African and non-African populations, with the Amhara and Oromo located in an intermediate position. This pattern is consistent with the location of the two Ethiopian groups in other genetic analysis and with cultural data. Conclusions : The present findings suggest the presence of a differential level of genetic relatedness with south-Saharan peoples in the two Ethiopian groups, which could reflect their different history and seems to indicate the existence of genetic sub-structure within the country.

I kind of figured Ethiopians weren't really true Africans. I am actually glad, I think this will benefit African studies and help keep Africa "pure" and keep people from begging for highly mixed people as brethren [Cool]
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Jo Nongowa
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Coloureds/Half breeds.
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argyle104
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Wolofi, take that vibrator out of your back pocket.
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argyle104
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Jo Nongowawawawawawawawawawawawawa wrote:

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How did you learn to type while wearing a straight jacket? From David Copperfield?

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Whatbox
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Wow, somebody's actually endorsing the guy's rediculous post? [Confused]

Oh, it's just Wolofi, no surprise there.

quote:
Originally posted by Chimu:
Hmmmmm...

No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?


You do realize that your context was different from my context, right?

I was only quoting what the authorities had to say about ancient Egyptians, not modern-day Ethiopians.

Even so, I am befuddled as to how anyone could fall for a 'study' that assigns genes that didn't arise in the Caucasus or in European people to a 'caucasian race'.

A sign some folks clearly want to have something to do with stuff they had little to do with.

From this study:

"Approximately one-half of both Ethiopian (52.2%) and Yemeni (45.7%) mtDNA lineages belonged to clades specific to sub-Saharan Africa, whereas the other half was divided between derived subclades of haplogroupsMand N that are, with the exception of M1 and U6 lineages, more common outside Africa." - Kivisild 2004

Concerning M and N, to put things in perspective, from a study in 2006 we have:

"Although two mtDNA lineages with an African
origin (haplogroups M and N)
were the progenitors of all non-African haplogroups,
macrohaplogroup L (including haplogroups L0-L6) is limited to sub-Saharan Africa.
" - Tishkoff and Kivisild 2006

So calling the genetic 'fathers' of all non-African lineages caucasian - influenced is more than a bit dis-ingenuous.

In fact:

quote:
Caucasian 1. adj. Of or being a purported human racial classification traditionally distinguished by light [?] to brown skin color [?] and including peoples indigenous to Europe, N Africa, W Asia, and India. Not in scientific use. 2. Of the Caucasus. n. 1. Anthro. A member of the Caucasian racial classification. 2. A native inhabitant of the Caucasus.
The Caucasus is a mountain region.

There's more:

quote:
Caucasoid adj. Of or relating to the Caucasian racial classification. Not in scientific use.
But most laymen will continue to do what they're free to: [Wink]

that is believe what they want to believe in regardless of factual basis or lack thereof.

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Chimu
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The Usage of Caucasian is a unfortunate left over from racialism of the past. But if you read the study you realize they use the term to refer to all near easterners. SO just switch the word. The markers still show back migration into Africa
And it is not modern but dates back to the Holocene

quote:
"Several mtDNA haplogroups—such as (preHV)1, U6, and some subbranches of L3 that Ethiopians share with North African populations—display coalescent times in the early Holocene (table 3) a similar period to that estimated for North and East African Y chromosomes in haplogroup E3b1-M78, which is abundant and may have originated in Ethiopia (Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004). It is interesting that, like E3b1-M78, these mtDNA haplogroups are infrequent or absent in our Yemeni sample (table 1). Note that the identified time window is close to the proposed division of the Semitic and Cushitic branches of Afro-Asiatic languages (Militarev 2003) and corresponds broadly to the beginning of deep environmental changes in the deserts of the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula, when those regions recovered from their widest span and most extreme aridity during the Last Glacial Maximum period.
On the other hand, similar to mtDNA haplogroup (preHV)1, Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1-M267 can be identified as the sole branch that is highly abundant in the Near and Middle East and in northeastern and East Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002, 2004; Luis et al. 2004). Higher STR diversity of this Y-chromosomal clade among Europeans and Ethiopians, as compared with populations from northeastern Africa and the Middle East, suggests that it may have reached Ethiopia (and Europe) early in the Holocene, whereas its frequent spread in North Africa and the Middle East may have been driven by the expansion of Arabs since the 7th century (Semino et al. 2004).


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Habari
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quote:
The Usage of Caucasian is a unfortunate left over from racialism of the past.
Agreed, the Caucasian notion is a total joke especially from an African perspective....
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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by Chimu:
The markers still show back migration into Africa
And it is not modern but dates back to the Holocene


quote:
"Several mtDNA haplogroups—such as (preHV)1, U6, and some subbranches of L3 that Ethiopians share with North African populations—display coalescent times in the early Holocene (table 3) a similar period to that estimated for North and East African Y chromosomes in haplogroup E3b1-M78, which is abundant and may have originated in Ethiopia (Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004). It is interesting that, like E3b1-M78, these mtDNA haplogroups are infrequent or absent in our Yemeni sample (table 1). Note that the identified time window is close to the proposed division of the Semitic and Cushitic branches of Afro-Asiatic languages (Militarev 2003) and corresponds broadly to the beginning of deep environmental changes in the deserts of the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula, when those regions recovered from their widest span and most extreme aridity during the Last Glacial Maximum period.
On the other hand, similar to mtDNA haplogroup (preHV)1, Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1-M267 can be identified as the sole branch that is highly abundant in the Near and Middle East and in northeastern and East Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002, 2004; Luis et al. 2004). Higher STR diversity of this Y-chromosomal clade among Europeans and Ethiopians, as compared with populations from northeastern Africa and the Middle East, suggests that it may have reached Ethiopia (and Europe) early in the Holocene, whereas its frequent spread in North Africa and the Middle East may have been driven by the expansion of Arabs since the 7th century (Semino et al. 2004).


Well, conserning the M267 lineages, it's awfully important to keep things in perspective:

quote:
J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one
probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people

Let's take a look at Hg J in general, and then J-M267:

 -

Same image.

If the image isn't showing, click this link.

quote:
J-M267 is notable, since
this haplogroup shows its highest frequencies in the
Middle East, North Africa, and Ethiopia (fig. 2B) and
its lowest in Europe, having been observed only in the
Mediterranean area.

quote:
The lower internal
variance of J-M267 in theMiddle East and North Africa,
relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different
migrations.
In the absence of additional binary
polymorphisms allowing further informative subdivision
of J-M267, the YCAII microsatellite system provides important
insights. The majority of J-M267 Y chromosomes
harbor the single-banded motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22
in the Middle East (>70%) and in North Africa
(>90%), whereas this association is much less frequent
in Ethiopia and only sporadically found in southern
Europe
. Considering the distribution of this YCAII single-
banded pattern—which, besides the usual stepwise
mutational mechanism, could be due to a stable mutational
event (one locus deletion or a single-nucleotide
mutation in the primer sequence)—we suggest that the
motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 potentially characterizes a
monophyletic clade of J-M267. A comparable situation
is observed within Hg I-M170, in which the single-banded
haplotype YCAIIa21-YCAIIb21 parallels a biallelic
marker (O.S., unpublished data).

According to this interpretation, the first migration,
probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 to Ethiopia
and Europe, whereas a second, more-recent migration
diffused the clade harboring the microsatellite motif
YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the southern part of theMiddle
East and in North Africa.

Courtesy Semino et al 2004.

quote:
Distinct histories
of J-M267* lineages are suggested: an expansion
from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe

and a more-recent diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/
YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part
of the Middle East toward North Africa.

I would like to know what qualifies the term "The Middle East" to be used in the bolded of the abov piece (an ever growing shrinking term that sometimes encompasses Egypt, Sudan, all of North Africa, South Western Asia, and sometimes a big chunk of the Indian sub-continent) -> what exactly the "Middle East" means.

I would like for the bolded to be more specific.

Even so, in North Africa this is deemed to be the result of more recent diffusion "of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa" and so I don't see how it would be a relevant rebuttal to what I posted earlier.

Of course, as a member that went by the alias al Takruri put it, there were no invisible bug-zappers set to non-African fatality at the borders of Kemet, and Kemet had much to offer, and so there was probable immigration. However, what I posted was primarily in response to the intense racialized attitude toward Kemet while not doing the same for civilizations out side of it.

With the Holocene African outmigration into the Levant, and African lineages all the way to Greece, perhaps we should talk about their ethnicities as being "admixed" too.

Everyone's "mixed", we all come from common ancestors.

Persia is South Asian, Greece was European, and Kemet African.

And before anyone talks about contributions: don't forget Europe and the "Mid-East" civilizations have Kemetian contributions of there own. [Wink]

Not that what I've posted has been refuted -> it includes some of the most up-to-date material in comparison to what you've posted.

However it seems that many take my material and go off on "there MUST have been SOME non-blacks there" modern political oriented tirades as if my material is posted with anti-non African intentions.

The only sentiment behind what I post is perhaps the idea that Ancient Egypt/ Kem.t should be given the same respect approach that other ancient cultures are given no matter how much it offends self-proclaimed "whites" and "non-Africans" and that double-standards should be eliminated.

quote:
Originally posted by Chimu:
Hmmmmm...

No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?

What I quoted was this:

quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time.


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Elijah The Tishbite
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Chimu the liar and distorter at it again trying to make the world a bunch of mixed up mulattophiles like he is. Those rashaida of Sudan are *RECENT* migrants to who came to Africa within the last 200 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashaida_people

http://www.sudan101.com/rashaida.htm

Stop distorting and pretending these people are "mixed indigenous" Saharans.


As for the Ethiopians, you have been owned and schooled on this before, Ethiopians have very little recent admixture from Arabia

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=34424&page=16

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Chimu
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Bass:
[QB] Chimu the liar and distorter at it again trying to make the world a bunch of mixed up mulattophiles like he is. Those rashaida of Sudan are *RECENT* migrants to who came to Africa within the last 200 years

And are now a part of Sudan. And only some of the pictures I posted were Rashaida. So try again.

quote:
As for the Ethiopians, you have been owned and schooled on this before, Ethiopians have very little recent admixture from Arabia
http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=34424&page=16

LMAO. Your thinking is as entertaining as Rasol's

From Richard Villems
quote:
As for paternal contributions from the Mid East to Ethiopia - hg E variants are dominant in both sides. However, although there are many sub-lineages of Y chromosome hg E known, deeper work is needed at the level of fine branches, in order to compare STR variation within shared branches to get idea about split time. To the best of my knowledge nobody has so far studied such
details - and of course it is not so easy to collect representative samples either.

Sounds like more work needs to be done.
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Whatbox
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"Mixed"?

What truly entails this 'mixed'.

If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?

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Elijah The Tishbite
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quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
"Mixed"?

What truly entails this 'mixed'.

If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?

"In any case, migrations before the demonstrable emergence of known language families and food production belong to a level of biological history that long antedates the interaction of current ethnic groups, and care should be taken not to express admixture in terms of these .......Migration and gene flow at a later time is an issue."


AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HUMAN BIOLOGY 16:679–689 (2004)

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Wolofi
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quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
"Mixed"?

What truly entails this 'mixed'.

If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?

Watch out for this kid he is a Mulatto too. Don't fall for his charm because now he is going to say everyone is mixed too [Big Grin]
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fellati achawi
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quote:
I kind of figured Ethiopians weren't really true Africans. I am actually glad, I think this will benefit African studies and help keep Africa "pure" and keep people from begging for highly mixed people as brethren
just curious according to your standards, as a native african, constitutes being pure african?
What if an AA learned the language and cultre of the wolof nation would he be acccepted as a member?
Do AA's remind you of any africans that you are familiar with?

--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

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Wolofi
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Absolutely not. Afro Americans are a very screwed up people. But I admit I would not have guessed that Don Cheadle had 20% European ancestry.

Pure African just means no admixture from arabs, Berbers or non Africans.

YEs Wolofi are a very accepting people and very good natured so they would accept an African American learning the language and culture with no problem. We don't have a problem with them in New York where most of us are. Nigerians might though.

But don't you want to be an Arab or something with all the Islam and spending all your time learning that language? Why are you interested in Africa or it's culture if I may ask?

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolofi:

Absolutely not. Afro Americans are a very screwed up people.

YEs Wolofi are a very accepting people

You must not be Wolof then. Your views are the only thing "screwed up" and certainly Diop would attest to this. Go back to flirting with Chimu and leave the intellectual discussion to those members with an IQ above that of a moon rock. [Smile]
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Mmmkay
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quote:
Go back to flirting with Chimu and leave the intellectual discussion to those members with an IQ above that of a moon rock.
^ Members of the troll "Legion of Doom" here on ES, opposite the ES "Justice League" [Razz] .
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Wolofi
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quote:
Originally posted by Sundiata:
quote:
Originally posted by Wolofi:

Absolutely not. Afro Americans are a very screwed up people.

YEs Wolofi are a very accepting people

You must not be Wolof then. Your views are the only thing "screwed up" and certainly Diop would attest to this. Go back to flirting with Chimu and leave the intellectual discussion to those members with an IQ above that of a moon rock. [Smile]
There are rumors Diop was gay and he married a white woman. What does Diop have to do with anything lol?
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fellati achawi
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quote:
Nigerians might though.
That is interesting. Do you have further info of why that may be?

quote:
But don't you want to be an Arab or something with all the Islam and spending all your time learning that language?
I am an arab.

quote:
Why are you interested in Africa or it's culture if I may ask?
im trying to live there.

--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

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Jo Nongowa
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^^ Diop was Wolof, Senegalese and African. Oh, dare I say this? He was also a Black and did have a French wife (a White). Now, why would Diop view "Afro Americans" as "a very screwed up people" or take issue with African-Americans/
Diasporan Africans of the Maafa having an interest in African ethnicities and cultures?

You see no self respecting Wolof person (as Diop was) would hold such negative views about African-Americans or Diasporan Africans!

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fellati achawi
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quick question to any of the senegambians on here.
Being nurtured and more informative of the senegambian regions, ,may i ask that are there any distinctive signs(physical features, dress,manners) other than language that nominates one as a serer, pula, mandinka, etc.?
There is a member here re white and blue who is heavily into the senegambian diaspora to N. america. DO you see any physical characteristics from AA's that remind you of any of the ethni-national groups?

--------------------
لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله

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USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Habari:
I'm always surprise the way in the western media they try to emphasize the fact that the Sudanese have an aquiline nose and light skin...it is true that they mixed with Arabs like Ethiopians and Northern Somalis but to a lesser extent...they are much darker than the majority of Ethiopians or Northern Somalis or Southern Africans(who are lighter than most Africans)...here is the Arab ambassador in the UK, the majority of the so called Arab Sudanese look like him, the majority look like West African, Southern Sudanese and some with a mix of Arab blood, the majority just look like Black African although they tend to look more like broad faced Africans:
 -

-Here in the USA the media usually makes it out to be "Arab militias from the North targeting Black christians from the South".

-In terms of phenotype, I don't really see Sudanese that resemble African Americans on average.

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Whatbox
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^True.

quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Bass:
quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
"Mixed"?

What truly entails this 'mixed'.

If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?

"In any case, migrations before the demonstrable emergence of known language families and food production belong to a level of biological history that long antedates the interaction of current ethnic groups, and care should be taken not to express admixture in terms of these .......Migration and gene flow at a later time is an issue."


AMERICAN JOURNAL OF HUMAN BIOLOGY 16:679–689 (2004)

^Yess.

I was simply trying to stir the thoughts a few posters.

Saying "mixed" like saying caucasoid/caucasian or African (the way Marc defines it based on phenotype alone, with no chronally relevant recent ancestry applicable - making us all African; thusly subtly and deceptively using "African" as a substitute for "human with certain features") can be arbitrary.

That is why dating for genetic mutations and skeletons is necissary.

It's also why assessing the time frames in which genetic diffusion happened is necissary and why blind statements like "must've been mixed" are/can be biologically meaningless.

Anyway, perhaps laymen that wish to waste away at their fantasies of other peoples' origins should go watch The Mummy series, other hollywood flicks like The Ten Commandments, or if those aren't your style go visit Dodona forums or do a search through this site of posts made by Horemheb/Celt/Arrow99/TheAmericanHammer, Marc Washington, Abaza, Stupid-Euro, the premature Bass-Master ( [Big Grin] lol Charlie), and the list goes on. [Cool]

quote:
Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
quote:
But don't you want to be an Arab or something with all the Islam and spending all your time learning that language?
I am an arab.
Wow I knew there had to have been some cool ass Arabs on htis forum!

Going from quotes alone (at least one I've recently read you're far more down than Wolofi or Yonis).

And no, for the record, you don't necissarily have to pay verbal tribute to be black or black (down with blacks) in to me - you just have to be a cool or genuinely ...'good' person.

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argyle104
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USA troll chum wrote:

-----------------------
-In terms of phenotype, I don't really see Sudanese that resemble African Americans on average.
-----------------------


Then why did I come across some "Northern Sudanese" that were saying that Bill Cosby looked like he was from "Northern or Central" Sudan? I know this makes you angry. : )


And how do you explain some other African Americans who resemble Sudanese?


Are you nervous now? LOL!


Amazing how so many Africans from all over the continent mistake AAs for one of their own or say that AAs resemble them.


You may dry your eyes now. : )

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USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Bass:
Chimu the liar and distorter at it again trying to make the world a bunch of mixed up mulattophiles like he is. Those rashaida of Sudan are *RECENT* migrants to who came to Africa within the last 200 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashaida_people

http://www.sudan101.com/rashaida.htm

Stop distorting and pretending these people are "mixed indigenous" Saharans.


As for the Ethiopians, you have been owned and schooled on this before, Ethiopians have very little recent admixture from Arabia

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=34424&page=16

-I don't see how Chimu's posts insinuate that the Sudan is populated by Mulattos. He posted various pics, not just Rashaida.

-The Sudanese are very much a heterogeneous population of various ethnic groups.

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Chimu
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quote:
Originally posted by Alive-(What Box):
"Mixed"?

What truly entails this 'mixed'.

If we all descend from the same population group, than how are we mixed? What can one be mixed with?

Mixed as in two socio-cultural groups. Obviously culturers that are in pivotal regions where migration can come from various cultures and phenotypes can be varied as well, then "mixed looks" will occur. Which just means populations that have characterisitcs of more than just one population. Then you have clinal variation as well which just means that as a population moves farther away froma region changes may occur and with time three populations can exist. The one that remained adjusting further to their original environment, the ones that moved to an intermediate position and the ones that moved to an even more differentiated place. Of course migration itself could function as a selective force or not allow for selectiveness to occur based on environmental factors if constantly changing. The point though is that variation in looks will occur in the different populations. Then if they mix among themselves new looks can occur as well.

So a population can look different just from movement and one population can look somewhere in between from just moving less. Or they might look somewhere inbetween from back migrations and admixture. We can look and make all types of assumptions, but genetics is the best answer as to phenotypical change just through environmental change or through environmental change and subsequent admixture with another population.

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USA
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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:
USA troll chum wrote:

Then why did I come across some "Northern Sudanese" that were saying that Bill Cosby looked like he was from "Northern or Central" Sudan?


And how do you explain some other African Americans who resemble some Sudanese peoples?


I know that you are now nervous. LOL!

[Roll Eyes]
Do the words "on average" mean anything to you? Does the personal statement "that I've seen" register?

I've seen AA's that can look like alot of other nationalities, and?

One more time: On average, AA's do not look like Northern Sudanese.

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