posted
The so called 'Ziggurats' of Sumer are older than the so called 'Pyramids' of ancient Khem.
As to the sources, a history of the Hebrews commonly known as the 'Hebrew Scriptures' renders the most accurate account of the beginning of ziggurat construction in the ancient land of Shinar (Sumer), which is in present day southern Iraq.
That ancient Khemitic civilizaion in the north-east of a continent known today, as Afica that is related to 'Pyramid construction' did not precede ancient Sumer, though it was a 'offshoot' of the culture and traditions of ancient Sumer.
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posted
The original name of city Heliopolis was Annu which was built by the Aunu people. I find it ironic that the name of the ancient Mesopotamia high god was Anu .This reminds me of the Osiris Ani.
Ani and Anu seem to be similar in nature and spelling.
It seems to me that based on the fact both nations were created from the people who came from the south; they possibly could have been created around the same time.
Good question, hard answer.
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
The Sialk Ziggurat, in it's earliest manifestation dates to 5500 BC and it's present form dates to 2900 BC. The earliest pyramid at Saqqara is 2630 BC, only three years before the Caral pyramid in Peru. Posts: 385 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
What the Egyptians get credit for is building their structures in stone. The step pyramid is the first such monument built in stone. The early dynastic Egyptians built many structures in mud brick predating the Step Pyramid, but they have not survived as long or as well because they were built from mud brick.
There are many ancient structures in Egypt built from mud brick dating long before the Step Pyramid.
Also, there are many differences between the tradition of the Ziggaruts and those of the Pyramids in Egypt. Egyptian pyramids were part of a tradition surrounding a funerary cosmology. They were designed to hold either ceremonial or actual remains of a ruler. These structures were focused on internal rooms and chambers, not outside platforms. The Ziggaruts were raised platforms with some internal structures, but designed for regular access by priests or rulers via external stairwells and landings. Egyptian structures did not follow this precedent. However, what all of these traditions shared was the idea that the uppermost levels were symbolic of the sun, as a deity and living manifestation of the gods and the power of the ruler. The same as found in MesoAmerica. However, there were many key differences between these cosmologies as well.
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posted
My post wasn't intended to be of a religious nature. I was pointing out the the similarities in the names of the Aunu people of Kemet and the Anu of Mesopotamia. Such similarities are too noticeable for them not to be mentioned.
Secondly Chimu, that date does seems to early. I definitely would like to see some sources on this from U or Mr. Winters.
Peace!~
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by R U 2 religious: My post wasn't intended to be of a religious nature. I was pointing out the the similarities in the names of the Aunu people of Kemet and the Anu of Mesopotamia. Such similarities are too noticeable for them not to be mentioned.
Secondly Chimu, that date does seems to early. I definitely would like to see some sources on this from U or Mr. Winters.
Before the Step Pyramid at Saqqara there were no Pyramids in Egypt. The Caral Pyramid is contemporaneous.
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quote:Originally posted by R U 2 religious: My post wasn't intended to be of a religious nature. I was pointing out the the similarities in the names of the Aunu people of Kemet and the Anu of Mesopotamia. Such similarities are too noticeable for them not to be mentioned.
Secondly Chimu, that date does seems to early. I definitely would like to see some sources on this from U or Mr. Winters.
^ Neither was my post nor did I infer that yours was.
However, my posit was and remains that the Hebrew Scriptures are an accurate source, albeit not the only one, that can assist in providing an answer to the Topic Starter's (TS) query.
Whether the TS 'respects' the Hebrew Scriptures or not is not the issue. The litmus test in this matter is whether the information contained within the Hebrew Scriptures in reference to his query can assist.
Interestingly, it was secular writings on the ancient Sumerians as relates to their ethnicity and culture that prompted me to look up the writings of the ancient Hebrews for further clarification.
And, I found the information contained therein (re the Sumerians) reliable and accurate; as others have in the past 3000 years.
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posted
^ not personal ... I should have wrote that in my first post
Posts: 951 | From: where rules end and freedom begins | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: 'Pyramid construction' did not precede ancient Sumer, though it was a 'offshoot' of the culture and traditions of ancient Sumer.
This is an unsubstantiated claim not founded in any available archaeological evidence. At least that I'm aware of.
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posted
^ Well, it is my contribution to the post; which may be subject to error or not. So far, there has been no credible rebuttal of my assertion that has been evidenced.
Having said this, I do not claim final word on the matter.
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posted
Jo Nongowa wrote - And, I found the information contained therein (re the Sumerians) reliable and accurate; as others have in the past 3000 years.
Can you give an example of what you mean by that?
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quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: ^ Well, it is my contribution to the post; which may be subject to error or not. So far, there has been no credible rebuttal of my assertion that has been evidenced.
Having said this, I do not claim final word on the matter.
Jo. There need not be a rebuttal since YOU made the claim. I can assert that Aliens built the Pyramids, and simply because I am not immediately rebutted on this point doesn't relieve me of my burden to substantiate the isolated claim in question. Of course you don't have the final word since it's just an unsubstantiated and random claim with no evidence or point of reference to retrieve such evidence.
In other words, try and make your case and I'll be happy to point out any flaws in your reasoning since obviously I disagree with your claim.
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posted
^ Well, I am aware that you disagree with my posit on the topic; however, I am comfortable with my reasoning on the topic as it relates to the available evidence - secular and non-secular.
Posts: 387 | From: England, UK | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: The so called 'Ziggurats' of Sumer are older than the so called 'Pyramids' of ancient Khem.
As to the sources, a history of the Hebrews commonly known as the 'Hebrew Scriptures' renders the most accurate account of the beginning of ziggurat construction in the ancient land of Shinar (Sumer), which is in present day southern Iraq.
That ancient Khemitic civilizaion in the north-east of a continent known today, as Afica that is related to 'Pyramid construction' did not precede ancient Sumer, though it was a 'offshoot' of the culture and traditions of ancient Sumer.
An off shoot of Sumer...?????
In what ways exactly..?
Sumerians had different Gods, Rituals, Building techniques, Customs, Language, Physical Appearance than Pre-Dynastic and Dynastic Egyptians during the time.
the Step Pyramid was not an off shoot of a Ziggurat.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Agreed, the Step Pyramid may very well have been modelled on the mastaba design, squared, diminished then stacked.
Where is the forerunner of the ziggurat?
Where are any intact ziggurats?
How do we know what a finished ziggurat actually looked like?
Then there are the pagoda and the Americas pyramids. It's hyperdiffusionist to suppose they aren't all independent inventions without foreigner intervention.
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posted
Unfortunately, most of the text I've researched on the Babylonian ziggurat, or Stepped Tower called, E-Ur-Iminan-Ki, always seem to point to religious oral or written tradition.
Rawlinson states, the ziggurat was likely built during the same time period as the Tower Of Babel, and while the tower had 8 stages, the ziggurat was in 7 stages where each stage was dedicated to a planet and had a different color thusly;
Stage 1: Height: 26feet Color: Black Planet: Saturn Stage 2: Height: 26feet Color: Red-Brown Planet: Jupiter Stage 3: Height: 26feet Color: Red Planet: Mars Stage 4: Height: 26feet Color: Gold Planet: Sun Stage 5: Height: 15feet Color: Yellow Planet: Venus Stage 6: Height: 15feet Color: Blue Planet: Mercury Stage 7: Height: 15feet Color: Silver Planet: Moon Total height: ~150 feet
Budge estimates the existance of Babylon as approximately fifth or fourth millennium before Christ and it's final decay in the time of the persian king, 538-331 BC. Excluding references in religious text, no one seems to know who built or named Babylon, or exactly who initiated or when the ziggurat was erected.
Babylonian Life and History, E.A. Wallis Budge
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
When the Amorite Hammurabi became king of Sumer in about 1800 B.C. His previously unimportant Amorite city of Babilla became his capital. And as such, it took on the wealth and power of the capital of a great king. How or when it became Babylon is anybody s guess.
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posted
I believe it began as Babylonia and became part sumer (south), part Akkadia (north) with the oldest city of both being Kish in Akkad. The Akkadians were semites and supposedly spoke a purely semitic language. They are also said to have been in possession of all of Babylonia before the immigration of the Sumerians who took the country by conquest. It's written that the Sumerians received one of their most devastating military defeats at the hands of Mesilim, King Of Kish, sometime before 3000BC.
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posted
meninarmer - I have no idea of what you are talking about, I have never heard such an account of Sumerian history. But rather than argue the point, I would suggest that you read the Sumerian king list, you will find no mention of Babylon. Also you might want to do some further reading on the Akkadians. The Akkadian king Sargon, conquered Sumer, not the other way around.
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posted
I haven't reviewed Babylonian/Sumerian history in years. Where Budge calls all of Sumer/Akkad; Babylonia, others do not. The kings list I referenced is from Budge's; Prinicples Kings Of Babylon, from Meissner, lists of dynasties beginning with Dynasty I at Kish approx. 4000BC. The list includes Sargon at 2637BC. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about these dates, as well as the what was Babylonia.
I only meant to revisit this to obtain the date of the ziggerat.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
meninarmer - Yes I see the problem - you are referencing a book Originally published in 1884 as part of the By-Paths of Bible Knowledge series for the Religious Tract Society. Below is the first two paragraphs of the king list as translated by Vincente 1995.
The Sumerian king list: translation
(In the following translation, mss. are referred to by the sigla used by Vincente 1995; from those listed there, mss. Fi, Go, P6, and WB 62 were not used; if not specified by a note, numerical data come from ms. WB.)
After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years. Alaljar ruled for 36000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years. Then Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to Bad-tibira. In Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-ana ruled for 43200 years. En-men-gal-ana ruled for 28800 years. Dumuzid, the shepherd, ruled for 36000 years. 3 kings; they ruled for 108000 years. Then Bad-tibira fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Larag. In Larag, En-sipad-zid-ana ruled for 28800 years. 1 king; he ruled for 28800 years. Then Larag fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Zimbir. In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana became king; he ruled for 21000 years. 1 king; he ruled for 21000 years. Then Zimbir fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Curuppag. In Curuppag, Ubara-Tutu became king; he ruled for 18600 years. 1 king; he ruled for 18600 years. In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241200 years. Then the flood swept over.
After the flood had swept over, and the kingship had descended from heaven, the kingship was in Kic. In Kic, Jucur became king; he ruled for 1200 years. Kullassina-bel ruled for 960 (ms. P2+L2 has instead: 900) years. Nanjiclicma ruled for (ms. P2+L2 has:) 670 (?) years. En-tarah-ana ruled for (ms. P2+L2 has:) 420 years ......, 3 months, and 3 1/2 days. Babum ...... ruled for (ms. P2+L2 has:) 300 years. Puannum ruled for 840 (ms. P2+L2 has instead: 240) years. Kalibum ruled for 960 (ms. P2+L2 has instead: 900) years. Kalumum ruled for 840 (mss. P3+BT14, Su1 have instead: 900) years. Zuqaqip ruled for 900 (ms. Su1 has instead: 600) years. (In mss. P2+L2, P3+BT14, P5, the 10th and 11th rulers of the dynasty precede the 8th and 9th.) Atab (mss. P2+L2, P3+BT14, P5 have instead: Aba) ruled for 600 years. Macda, the son of Atab, ruled for 840 (ms. Su1 has instead: 720) years. Arwium, the son of Macda, ruled for 720 years. Etana, the shepherd, who ascended to heaven and consolidated all the foreign countries, became king; he ruled for 1500 (ms. P2+L2 has instead: 635) years. Balih, the son of Etana, ruled for 400 (mss. P2+L2, Su1 have instead: 410) years.
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posted
Yes, book was published in 1883, and revised in 1925. I think I may select some more current reference on Babylonia. Any suggestions?
The pre-flood dates seem to use a different calendar to mark time, hence the references to ruling for 10s of thousands of years, and kings live's spanning thousands of years. One list has ten kings ruling before the flood a combined period of 456,000. According to another list, 8 kings ruled for a period of 246,200 years. Although these are the peoples populating earth before the biblical flood of Noah, these kings names are identified in the native babylonian lists. However, but I think it's impossible that an explaination for these figures to be made sense of.
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I believe biblical "scholars" were affected by the many ancient legends and myths from many cultural histories which preceded them.
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^^^ Great answer meninarmer. As the place were Hebrews first gave up their Nomadic ways and became a civilized people, of course their later developed religion would incorporate elements from Sumer. Zoroastrian concepts are also an important element, as is Egyptian religion.
meninarmer to the best of my knowledge these are the two best on-line sources.
My primary interest is in ancient history. Meaning, Egypt's pre-dynasty and Old Kingdoms, and pre-flood Babylon. Except in more non-mainstream sources, updated information on these cultures doesn't come as quickly as the more current histories. Budge does make an attempt to spend time reconstructing pre-flood dynasties. Most current sources I reviewed mostly skip past this area.
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posted
meninarmer wrote: Budge does make an attempt to spend time reconstructing pre-flood dynasties. Most current sources I reviewed mostly skip past this area.
The reason for that is because there is no history to speak of. There are still thousands of the earliest Sumerian tablets which cannot be deciphered, the contents of which are unknown. From that which has been deciphered, mostly because there were Akkadian transcriptions, the only insights available are from the early myths and stories. As far as I know, no one has written a comprehensive Sumerian history, other than the on-line condensed versions, the reasons for which are obvious. That is, there is little opportunity to make them appear to be White people, though some have tried. I will start you off with the following.
According to one of the earliest historical documents, the Sumerian King List, eight kings of Sumer reigned before the famous flood of old testament fame. A great Part of the method of dating this civilization is through the archaeological record of a great flood of the Euphrates River at about 3200 B.C. But this is very risky science, because it is more likely that the flood the Sumerians referred to was an Ocean flood, which greatly raised the water level of the Gulf and submerged cites on the coast. In support of this theory, the remains of an ancient city was found in the gulf waters off the coast of Pakistan (the old Indus Valley).
It is indicated that after the flood, various city-states through war, became the temporary seat of power, until about 2800 B.C. when they were united under the rule of one king, Jucur of Kish. Nothing is known of the first sixteen kings of this dynasty until Etana the seventeenth king. According to the ancient Sumerian epic of Etana, a tale that may have had a political purpose, being more concerned with the question of dynastic succession.
Then of course there is the issue of whether or not Sumerians were indigenous to the area because of pottery that was found at Al-Ubaid that does not appear to be the same as Sumerian pottery.
Below are some links to Sumerian religion and myth which should aid you.
posted
^Still not there. It appears the only published works on this topic are coming from the non-traditional "Atlantian" researchers who happen to be whites attempting to characterize the Atlantians as Ultra advanced Aryans who following the catastrophy, migrated to Egypt and elevated the primatives.
posted
Rawlinson said the Sumerians were Kusites and they came from Africa.
To decipher the cuneiform writing Rawlinson used Oromo and South Semitic language.
Col. Rawlinson’s brother claimed that he used Oromo to decipher the cuneiform writing. If this is true we should be able to find a connection between Oromo , and the Akkadian and/or Sumerian languages. A cursory examination of Oromo and Sumerian verbs suggest that such a relationship may exist.
Sumerian Oromo
bar ‘to open’ ba ‘go out, appear’
ga, aka ‘to place’ kai ‘to put’
kur ‘to rise’ ka ‘to rise up’
bar ‘bright, to shine’ bai ‘excellent’
de ‘pour’ dug ‘drink’
kar ‘to rise’ ka ‘to rise’
dur ‘sit’ tai ‘sit’
kur ‘enter’ gal ‘enter’
pae ‘appear’ ba ‘appear’
bu ‘perfect’ bai ‘excellent’
gal ‘big’ guda ‘big’
gurud ‘throw’ gat ‘throw’
ri ‘let go’ lit ‘go in, enter’
du ‘to plant’ dab ‘to plant’
dub ‘fix a boundary’ dab ‘fix’
There is striking correspondence between the Oromo and Sumerian verbs. There appears to be full correspondence between the:
b-b
k-k
d-d
m-m
n-n
We also find that p/b, r/l and d/t were interchangeable consonants in some Sumerian and Oromo words.
It is interesting that in relation to the vowels, we find that the Sumerian –u- often appears an –a- in Oromo. e.g.:
Sumerian Oromo
nag ‘drink’ dug ‘drink’
dur ‘sit’ tai ‘sit’
kur ‘enter’ gal ‘enter’
bu ‘perfect’ bai ‘excellent’
Granted these are only a few of the verbs found in Sumerian and Oromo. Yet, this discussion of Oromo and Sumerian verbs indicate that the terms illustrate cognation. This cognation in Sumerian and Oromo verbs may explain why Rawlinson felt that he could use Oromo in his decipherment of the cuneiform writing.
Rawlinson was the first researcher to detect the Sumerian language. Many of the rules of Sumerian have been determined.
To read the Sumerian text I use :
J. Gadd, Sumerian Reading Book, Oxford, 1924.
C.G. Gostony, Dictionnaire d'etymologie Sumerienne et Grammaire comparee, Paris, 1975.
This is an interesting contribution implying the Ancient Sumerian origin may have possibly been Ethiopian.
I thought of this when noticing one of the chief Babylonian Gods is, Anu, God of Heaven. Also, the many parallels between the Babylonian Seven Tablets of Creation and The Book Of The Dead's, Tablet Of Iron.
I'll definitely order Kramers, The Sumerians.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Thanks Dr. Winters.
This is an interesting contribution implying the Ancient Sumerian origin may have possibly been Ethiopian.
I thought of this when noticing one of the chief Babylonian Gods is, Anu, God of Heaven. Also, the many parallels between the Babylonian Seven Tablets of Creation and The Book Of The Dead's, Tablet Of Iron.
I'll definitely order Kramers, The Sumerians.
This may have been one of the earliest reasons that the first Sumerian Kings were called "Kings of Kish" in the kingslist.
quote:Originally posted by meninarmer: Thanks Dr. Winters.
This is an interesting contribution implying the Ancient Sumerian origin may have possibly been Ethiopian.
I thought of this when noticing one of the chief Babylonian Gods is, Anu, God of Heaven. Also, the many parallels between the Babylonian Seven Tablets of Creation and The Book Of The Dead's, Tablet Of Iron.
I'll definitely order Kramers, The Sumerians.
Africans in Early Asia edited by Ivan Van Sertima is also a good book.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Thanks again Dr. Winters. I did enjoy those links and will reference each piece again as I progress.
Allow me to take the opportunity to say; You do great work!
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