[Jan Mostaert (about 1475 - about 1556), Portrait of an African man. The Rijksmuseum Amsterdam has acquired a unique portrait of an African man. The panel, painted by Jan Mostaert and dating approximately from the period 1520-1530, is the only independent painted portrait of a black man in the Renaissance.]
This thread is dedicated to images of the Moor, which to me symbolises Blue Blood and Black Supremacy in Europe (1500-1789). At present I’m reading Paul Kaplans work ‘The Rise of The Black Magus in the European Art.’ (1985). His research ends with 1500 when the image of the Magi or King is fully established in the whole of Europe. To me 1500, the beginning of the Renaissance, signals the start of the Black domination of Europe, ending with the violent and bloody French Revolution. An era I have defined as Reversed Apartheid, when Black’s and coloureds claimed Blue Blood and despotically oppressed white Europeans. These facts are not known because museums present us with portraits which show Black and Coloured Nobility and Royalty as Whites. Some of these portraits are however authentic and were used for propagandistic purposes. Many are fake, or (half)whitened copies or are repainted with beige paint. This historical episode is the source of Scientific Racism, the hatred of Blacks, and the subsequent White Supremacy doctrine, today.
Egmond Codfried
Bookreview: search kaplan magus book review
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Lot 197, "The Crucifixion with the Virgin and Saint John with the instruments and emblems of the Passion," by Circle of the Master of the 1540s, oil on panel, 40 1/2 by 30 1/2 inches
As spectacular as the "Calvary" by the Master of the Death of Saint Nicholas of Munster, Lot 197, shown above, "The Crucifixion with the Virgin and Saint John with the instruments and emblems of the Passion," by Circle of the Master of the 1540s is curious.
This painting overflows with imagery from a great many sources and is quite an unusual composition both in its strong use of vertical diagonals and the strong horizontal element of the wall with a very odd, and interesting, group of people, several dressed in marvelous hats, and some oblivious to the others.
This is not your conventional altarpiece, but more like something a star pupil might concoct to dazzle his many masters. Many elements, such as the "instruments" are very finely painted, while several of the faces are not too painterly. The poses of the Virgin and Saint John are also unusual and interesting.
An oil on panel, 40 1/2 by 30 1/2 inches, this is certainly the auction's most intriguing painting. There are several existing works attributed to the Master of the 1540s, but this author is not yet familiar with them. The lot has an estimate of $30,000 to $40,000, probably reflecting the fact that the auction house can only state that it is "circle," one of its lower levels of attribution. It is in quite excellent condition and hopefully some doctoral candidate will eventually discover the artist's identity. It is the type of painting that makes one ponder the ingenuity of the Renaissance, or at least kitchen sinks, even more. It sold for $23,000.
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[Jan Mostaert (about 1475 - about 1556), Portrait of an African man. The Rijksmuseum Amsterdam has acquired a unique portrait of an African man. The panel, painted by Jan Mostaert and dating approximately from the period 1520-1530, is the only independent painted portrait of a black man in the Renaissance.]
This thread is dedicated to images of the Moor, which to me symbolises Blue Blood and Black Supremacy in Europe (1500-1789). At present I’m reading Paul Kaplans work ‘The Rise of The Black Magus in the European Art.’ (1985). His research ends with 1500 when the image of the Magi or King is fully established in the whole of Europe. To me 1500, the beginning of the Renaissance, signals the start of the Black domination of Europe, ending with the violent and bloody French Revolution. An era I have defined as Reversed Apartheid, when Black’s and coloureds claimed Blue Blood and despotically oppressed white Europeans. These facts are not known because museums present us with portraits which show Black and Coloured Nobility and Royalty as Whites. Some of these portraits are however authentic and were used for propagandistic purposes. Many are fake, or (half)whitened copies or are repainted with beige paint. This historical episode is the source of Scientific Racism, the hatred of Blacks, and the subsequent White Supremacy doctrine, today.
Egmond Codfried
Bookreview: search kaplan magus book review
I don't think that this makes any sense.
The period of blacks dominating in parts of Europe actually ended in the 1500s. It was the time when the Moors and before that the Carthaginians ruled Spain and other parts of Europe that Africans had power in Europe. Sure, some Europeans had recent ancestry from Africa, but most of them were in, not surprisingly, Spain and Portugal, followed by Sicily and Italy.
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posted
fascinating finds(pics) though. Seems like racism is REALLY fairly recent.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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TITLE: A Still Life with a Moorish Servant Standing Behind a Table
A Moor as the symbol of Blue Blood. Alway shown as a Classical African. Enjoy! I do not regard him as a servant, and these kinds of paintings are images and not portraits of a real Black person. If they were real, what was their name, and what happened to their Black offspring? ================================================
DESCRIPTION: Little is known of the life of the painter Juriaen van Streeck. He was clearly influenced, however, by the work of the famous painter of still lifes, Willem Kalf (1619-1673). The early biographer of painters, Arnold Houbraken, praises Kalf as the artist who perfected the pronk still life. This type of ornate and sumptuous still life was very popular in Amsterdam. In the present pronk still life by Juriaen van Streeck, the materials are brilliantly handled and the colours are dazzling. The richly dressed young black servant, with a faint smile playing about his lips, appears before a parted velvet curtain, holding an empty roemer. He seems to be drawing to our attention to the opulent still life before him, in which are displayed items that were of great luxury and value at that time. A blue and white kraak porcelain bowl filled with peaches and a lemon is tilted at an angle upon a luxuriant velvet drape fringed with gold tassels, so that the inside of the bowl can be seen to the best advantage. Just protruding over the edge of the marble ledge is a brilliantly polished silver dish; an orange and walnuts are reflected on its surface. Behind these is a bunch of grapes decoratively fringed with leaves, a roemer, a loaf of bread, and an ornate silver ewer. The presence of the Moor holding a wineglass is rare, and is a device borrowed from the art of portraiture. The delicate porcelain bowl is characteristic of the reign of the Ming emperor Wanli, which ended in 1620. Known in Holland as kraak (carrack) porcelain, most of these blue and white dishes were produced in China for export to the West and are often encountered in Netherlandish still lifes.
Van Streeck’s still lifes display extraordinary technical achievements. His artistic ability is especially evident in the differentiated textures of drapery, porcelain, silverware and glass. He used the technique of trompe l’oeil, to convince the onlooker that what he sees is not a painting of objects, but actually the objects themselves. In this way, the artist creates a sense of three-dimensional reality. This technique can be seen in the present painting in the way in which the fringe of the velvet drape hangs off the ledge into the foreground, and in the silver plate projecting out into the viewer’s space. A similar painting by the artist, also featuring a Moor, is in the Alte Pinakothek, Münich.
PROVENANCE: Private Collection, The Netherlands
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The period of blacks dominating in parts of Europe actually ended in the 1500s. It was the time when the Moors and before that the Carthaginians ruled Spain and other parts of Europe that Africans had power in Europe. Sure, some Europeans had recent ancestry from Africa, but most of them were in, not surprisingly, Spain and Portugal, followed by Sicily and Italy. [/QB]
Please do not resist evidence. If you disagree show your own proof. I do not fiend a lot of Spanish Moors or Muslims in the rest of Europe. So I look for Garamante, brought over in 50 BC by Caesar. I think they became the Franks, a latin speaking nation, who conquered after 325, Germany, France and Holland. Becoming a Noble and Royal elite.
You have been miseducated with eurocentrism and are daily brainwashed: you are lied too!! Do you remember the famous lie about 'Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq,' which resulted in the whole of the civilized (?)world coming down on Irak, massacring it's peoples?
There are many more of those, passing for history and science. This wonderfull portrait is presented as anonimous, but is probably one which was saved from destruction. There should have been thousands of those. What about his ancestors, brothers, sisters, children and grandchildren? They intermarried, to keep the colour, which stood for Blue Blood and Nobility.
Egmond Codfried
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To me this article by Mike Nassau proves that way into the 17th century, there were Black looking peoples arriving in America from Europe, Black Dutch, who were not mixed with enslaved Africans. They were Native European Blacks.
Egmond Codfried ================================================== BLACK DUTCH by Mike Nassau
fragment:
3. Schwarze Deutsche or Black Germans, found along the Danube River in Austria and Germany, in the Black Forest and, to a lesser extent, along the Rhine River, have dark hair and eyes, unlike the fairer people both north and south of them. Their descendants in America may be called either Black Dutch or Black German. The origin of their dark coloration is ancient, from the Roman army in the third and fourth centuries, C.E. The Roman army of this time period was mostly made up of German mercenary soldiers, but along the German border, the Romans preferred to station non-Germans. The army on the Danube was largely drawn from Numidian and Nubian soldiers, especially Garamante Numidians. The Garamante (called Tubu now) were Black Africans from the central Sahara. Now the Tubu live in northern Chad, eastern Niger and southern Libya. They are not usually found north of Marzuk in Fezzan or Kufra in Cyrenaica now, but in Roman times they ranged north to the central coast of Libya and to Ghadames in southern Tunisia. As well as Garamante, there were some Iranic people stationed on this frontier, especially Sarmatians (called Ossets now) and Scythians (Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible) from southern Russia and the Ukraine (Ashkenaz, the old Hebrew for Scythia, has been used for Germany in modern Hebrew by Ashkenazic Jews trying to ingratiate themselves with Germans and Austrians or trying to hide their Khazar ancestry). These African and Iranic soldiers left many descendants who tend to have black, heavy hair and dark eyes even yet. Beethoven and Hitler are two famous examples of this group (Peanuts). It is interesting to imagine Hitler's reaction to someone telling him he probably got his heavy, black hair from Black African ancestry. Since this was so long ago, with population movement and inter-marriage, all Europeans must have some ancestry from these Black African soldiers. In sixty generations, a person could leave 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants with just two children per person each generation so long as no descendants married each other. Obviously, after a time, many descendants will marry each other, but still it works out statistically that most people from that long ago who left descendants at all are ancestors of everyone in Europe today. The tendency for people to stay in their own community explains why we can see the effects along the Danube and in the Black Forest in the people with black hair and dark eyes but do not see it far away like Iceland. The concentration is far greater at the point of origin, but the dispersion radiates out to everywhere given enough time.
SOURCE:http://www.blackdutch1.webs.com/
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: fascinating finds(pics) though. Seems like racism is REALLY fairly recent.
I have presented my theory that racism is connected with, a reaction to the reign of the despotic European Black and Coloured Nobles (1500-1789). An era I have compared with Reversed Apartheid.
Egmond Codfried
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Egmond. Some really nice pictures. I especially like this one:
Would you happen to have any more by that particular artist?
Egmond. In your view, what is the difference between a Moor, a Celt, and a Phoenician?
Just curious.
Marc
. .
Dear,
I collect from the internet, not scanning anything myself, yet. With the portrait of Equiano and his daughter Angela Osborn, and this Moor you like so much, I again see the benefit of feeding the same names again and again in google because new stuff is posted all the time.
My research is really about 1500-1789 so Celts hardly come into view, but I have read what you said about Khoi people in Europe.
For the image of the Moor I rely on the Moor as depicted in Western art, starting somewhere between 1300-1400. I see no use for these big battles on the web about if Moors were White or Black, as for Europeans they were pitch black, Classical Africans. I hate people who say East Africans, black as soot, are White's. Or, god forbid, that White's built the goddam piramides!
As for the dear old Phoenicians, I have no clue? Did not some clever body found out that they are just a goddam invention by eager eurocentrist to deny Blacks the invention of civilisation?
But again, I'm not prepared to argue with eurocentrist till kingdome come about these things. We know what is true and what is a fabrication, a bald face lie.
But while everyone is still busy with their DNA and mitochondria and alleles, I was wondering where this hatred of Blacks came from. What did these Blacks do to these White's for them to invent all this hatefull Scientific Racism?
This is what my approach is all about: The WHY OF IT ALL. AND HOW TO DECONSTRUCT RACISM IN ORDER TO END IT.
Egmond Codfried
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One area of the life of King James that for many years remained clouded in controversy was allegations that James was homosexual. As James did father several children by Anne of Denmark, it is actually more accurate to say that he was allegedly a bi-sexual. While his close relationships with a number of men were noted, earlier historians questioned their sexual nature, however, few modern historians cast any doubt on the King's bisexuality and the fact that his sexuality and choice of male partners both as King of Scotland then later in London as King of England were the subject of gossip from the city taverns to the Privy Council. His relationship as a teenager with fellow teenager Esmé Stuart, Earl of Lennox was criticized by Scottish Church leaders, who were part of a conspiracy to keep the young King and the young French courtier apart, as the relationship was improper to say the least. Lennox, facing threats of death, was forced to leave Scotland. In the 1580s, King James openly kissed Francis Stewart Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell. Contemporary sources clearly hinted their relationship was a sexual one. When James inherited the English throne from Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, it was openly joked of the new English monarch in London that “Elizabeth was King: now James is Queen!” If there is still any doubt, it should be noted that George Villiers, also held an intimate relationship with King James, about which King James himself was quite open. King James called Villiers his “wife” and called himself Villiers' “husband”! King James died in 1625 of gout and senility. He is buried in the Henry VII chapel in Westminster Abbey, with one of his favorite male suitors on his right, and another on his left.
When I studied this piece by Rubens I noticed that the man standing to the left of the Moor looks quite the same as this Moor. As if Rubens has whitened the model who posed for the Moor. Or could it have been the other way around?
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Again, some nice pics. Egmond, you asked, "But while everyone is still busy with their DNA and mitochondria and alleles, I was wondering where this hatred of Blacks came from. What did these Blacks do to these White's for them to invent all this hatefull Scientific Racism?"
I think one dynamic behind racism is the following. Whites were entering African (by phenotype) villages, settlements, cities, nations in the Near East, India, Europe; and in any given locale, fights and wars began for resources (land, cattle, homes, gold, iron mines) between incoming whites and the indigenous Africans.
One can hear stories the world around of these conflicts. Whites often absorbed the language, religion, mythologies, traditions and customs of indigenous Africans.
I think racism grew from a combination of hatred for having found value in something they envied from people they'd need to dispose of to have it all; and denial of the global genocide whites carried out against Africans (by phenotype) and feelings of guilt associated with it accompanying the desire that they had invented the things they value. But didn't.
Keep up the good work!
. .
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Interesting enough early images might show her with Barbie doll-like, lucious blond locks, but pitch black skin. Or as a White queen with Black attendants. So its some kind of simplification: white is good and christian and black is heathen. The Black attendants make clear that she was African.
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Again, some nice pics. Egmond, you asked, "But while everyone is still busy with their DNA and mitochondria and alleles, I was wondering where this hatred of Blacks came from. What did these Blacks do to these White's for them to invent all this hatefull Scientific Racism?"
I think one dynamic behind racism is the following. Whites were entering African (by phenotype) villages, settlements, cities, nations in the Near East, India, Europe; and in any given locale, fights and wars began for resources (land, cattle, homes, gold, iron mines) between incoming whites and the indigenous Africans.
One can hear stories the world around of these conflicts. Whites often absorbed the language, religion, mythologies, traditions and customs of indigenous Africans.
I think racism grew from a combination of hatred for having found value in something they envied from people they'd need to dispose of to have it all; and denial of the global genocide whites carried out against Africans (by phenotype) and feelings of guilt associated with it accompanying the desire that they had invented the things they value. But didn't.
Keep up the good work!
. .
These hypothesis' of yours are a good starting point, but what you will have to, eventually, in order to convince the world is to show; step by step, how you arrived at this scientific theory. You will have to show when these things you mention happened, how, why, by who and what was the outcome, and why you came to this or that conclusion.
Then in my life I met people from many nationalities, and found that people are just people. This means that even a brother might approach you with a lot of afrocentric sweet talk, but will stick it to you in the end. so phenotype does not mean a thang.
I fight for the colonised and exploited underdog today. There is still Black on Black slavery in West Africa. So I do not idealise Blacks, I identify with the poor, young Africans in small boats, braving the sea, for a better life in Europe. Why; because they do not get a fair price for their cacao from European traders, chocolate is a luxury European food item.
So I'm 100% with you, but like to share with you what might be ahead for you as a researcher, in time. I rather have someone study these things, as you do, then sit in some dopehall smoking or snorthing or injecting godknowswhat poison, given to them by their government, to destroy their spirit.
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posted
This courtier is possibly Christoph le More, nobleman at the court of Emperor Charles V Habsburg (1500-1558), according to information provided at the 'Black is Beautiful' exposition in Amsterdam.
[Jan Mostaert (about 1475 - about 1556), Portrait of an African man. The Rijksmuseum Amsterdam has acquired a unique portrait of an African man. The panel, painted by Jan Mostaert and dating approximately from the period 1520-1530, is the only independent painted portrait of a black man in the Renaissance.]
This thread is dedicated to images of the Moor, which to me symbolises Blue Blood and Black Supremacy in Europe (1500-1789). At present I’m reading Paul Kaplans work ‘The Rise of The Black Magus in the European Art.’ (1985). His research ends with 1500 when the image of the Magi or King is fully established in the whole of Europe. To me 1500, the beginning of the Renaissance, signals the start of the Black domination of Europe, ending with the violent and bloody French Revolution. An era I have defined as Reversed Apartheid, when Black’s and coloureds claimed Blue Blood and despotically oppressed white Europeans. These facts are not known because museums present us with portraits which show Black and Coloured Nobility and Royalty as Whites. Some of these portraits are however authentic and were used for propagandistic purposes. Many are fake, or (half)whitened copies or are repainted with beige paint. This historical episode is the source of Scientific Racism, the hatred of Blacks, and the subsequent White Supremacy doctrine, today.
posted
Most Moors were from Arabia. Their invasion of Spain was simply the culmanation of the conquest of Northern Africa and contained almost no black African componet. The pictures posted above are a joke. It took me a full ten minutes to stop laughing.
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posted
Actually most Moors were from Africa. Almost every scholar (most of whom are white) say this unequivocally. Secondly, blacks are the aboriginal population of Arabia and were among those who invaded North Africa as well as Spain. There were many black African groups from across North Africa, the Sahara and into West Africa, who were involved in the Muslim incursions into Europe.
Lastly, most of the images above are not of the Muslims of Spain from 700 - 1500, but just black Africans, who were CALLED Moors by the Europeans themselves. Therefore, if Europeans identify the word Moor with blacks, then this means that THE Moors were black Africans, or at least had a good number of black Africans among them. Of course, not all Moors were black and MOST Muslims in Spain were EUROPEANS. But in terms of those who invaded from Africa into Europe, most of them were Africans and black, but this also included Arabians, Saracens and other Levantine groups as well.
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Most Moors were from Arabia. Their invasion of Spain was simply the culmanation of the conquest of Northern Africa and contained almost no black African componet. The pictures posted above are a joke. It took me a full ten minutes to stop laughing.
My aim is to please, honey. So, just think of me as a court jester, sit back and imbibe some culture. The title of this thread is 'Moors in European Art,' not 'Moors in goddam Medieval Spain.' But I guess these 'foolish'? painters like Rubens, Rembrandt, Dürer and what have you (1400-1900?), should have consulted you first before attempting to make these paintings of creatures they call Moors. People with brains will understand that I have no time nor any use for strange discussions about the colour of the fucking 'Black, White and Tawny' Moors who invaded Spain. If Black people want to liberate themselves they had better make haste. By the way, J.A.Rogers (1941) defined Arabs as a 'Fixed Mulatto Race' with the white looking ones, the black looking ones and the coloured ones freely mixing with each other. The white looking Arabs did not seem to him like some superior elite among the other Arabs. The Arabs, according to Rogers, are a mix between Black Chaldees and White mountainous tribes in Iraq. He wrote that Moses and Mohammed were Blacks. There you have it!
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually most Moors were from Africa. Almost every scholar (most of whom are white) say this unequivocally. Secondly, blacks are the aboriginal population of Arabia and were among those who invaded North Africa as well as Spain. There were many black African groups from across North Africa, the Sahara and into West Africa, who were involved in the Muslim incursions into Europe.
Lastly, most of the images above are not of the Muslims of Spain from 700 - 1500, but just black Africans, who were CALLED Moors by the Europeans themselves. Therefore, if Europeans identify the word Moor with blacks, then this means that THE Moors were black Africans, or at least had a good number of black Africans among them. Of course, not all Moors were black and MOST Muslims in Spain were EUROPEANS. But in terms of those who invaded from Africa into Europe, most of them were Africans and black, but this also included Arabians, Saracens and other Levantine groups as well.
Dear,
As I wrote earlier, I do not find Arab Moors or Mulsim Africans, or whatever you might call them in the rest of Europe. They might have been christianised, as after 1500 Europe did not want to countenance any European Jews, Muslims or whatever one minute longer. It was conversion or scram or the burning stake! But as Mike Nassau speaks of the dread locked, Nubian Garamante, entering the heart of Europe in 50 BC with the armies of Caesar, we have to study other possible entries of Black peoples into Europe.
Egmond Codfried
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By reading eurocentric, Paul Kaplan, “The Rise of the Black Magus in the European Art” (1995) I understand that in 1300-1500 there arises a need to show Black people and especially a Black King at the centre of Christianity. So they scoured the Bible and came up with the Queen of Sheba visiting King Solomon, and getting herself knocked up! The Three Kings visiting Maria and Jesus, with one turning Black or having a Black Herald which announces his Blackness. The Baptism of the Ethiopian by an apostle. And finally they setlled on St. Maurice who had been martyred 1200 years earlier. They broke the mould of ‘Blacks as heathens’ and showed how a poor, pitch black St. Maurice and his Black companions are brutally murdered by White soldiers, by order of the White heathen Emperor Maximillian. So also during this time of 1300-1500 we find a lot of churches being founded and named after St. Maurice.
posted
But as Mike Nassau speaks of the dread locked, Nubian Garamante, entering the heart of Europe in 50 BC with the armies of
"Nubian Garamantes"? Alright, we've already got two problems here: 1. The Romans never expanded south of Egypt - "Nubians", and especially a cohort or more consisting of "Nubians", in a Roman army is as plausible as a cohort of Picts, or Finns, among Rome's finest. 2. "Nubians" and "Garamantes" are two entirely different peoples: The Garamantes inhabited Libya, and the Nubians inhabited what would now be called Ethiopia - "Nubian Garamantes" is as stupid as "British Goths", or "Iberian Helvetians", or "Etruscan Germans".
Seriously - as you readily admit - you are nothing more than a sad, pathetic, whiny Afrocentric joke "Egmond": On the one hand, you claim that there was an "obsession with the Moor (depicted as West Africans)" in Renaissance Europe, yet post portraits of Europeans whiter than my Hungarian great-grandmother and claim that they are part of a "fixed mulatto race", despite the fact that - if white Europeans are really albinos as you claim - "mulattos", "quadroons" etc are impossible as the children of "non-albino Africans" and "albino Europeans" would be as black as the black parent - there is no such thing as a "half-albino", as the dominant non-albino gene completely masks the recessive albino gene, even in carriers.
The funny part is he actually believes what he posts!
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posted
By the way, J.A.Rogers (1941) defined Arabs as a 'Fixed Mulatto Race' with the white looking ones, the black looking ones and the coloured ones freely mixing with each other. The white looking Arabs did not seem to him like some superior elite among the other Arabs. The Arabs, according to Rogers, are a mix between Black Chaldees and White mountainous tribes in Iraq.
J.A. Rogers - wasn't he the idiot that believed Cleopatra and Hannibal were "black Africans" too?
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posted
Just let me repost the whole damn quote of Mike Nassau. If we are going to have a fucking debate lets stick to what somebody actually wrote! Jeez!
quote:Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
[A 'Moorish Cavalryman' with dreadlocks, fitting the description of the Garamante warriors. British Museum]
To me this article by Mike Nassau proves that way into the 17th century, there were Black looking peoples arriving in America from Europe, Black Dutch, who were not mixed with enslaved Africans. They were Native European Blacks.
Egmond Codfried ================================================== BLACK DUTCH by Mike Nassau
fragment:
3. Schwarze Deutsche or Black Germans, found along the Danube River in Austria and Germany, in the Black Forest and, to a lesser extent, along the Rhine River, have dark hair and eyes, unlike the fairer people both north and south of them. Their descendants in America may be called either Black Dutch or Black German. The origin of their dark coloration is ancient, from the Roman army in the third and fourth centuries, C.E. The Roman army of this time period was mostly made up of German mercenary soldiers, but along the German border, the Romans preferred to station non-Germans. The army on the Danube was largely drawn from Numidian and Nubian soldiers, especially Garamante Numidians. The Garamante (called Tubu now) were Black Africans from the central Sahara. Now the Tubu live in northern Chad, eastern Niger and southern Libya. They are not usually found north of Marzuk in Fezzan or Kufra in Cyrenaica now, but in Roman times they ranged north to the central coast of Libya and to Ghadames in southern Tunisia. As well as Garamante, there were some Iranic people stationed on this frontier, especially Sarmatians (called Ossets now) and Scythians (Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible) from southern Russia and the Ukraine (Ashkenaz, the old Hebrew for Scythia, has been used for Germany in modern Hebrew by Ashkenazic Jews trying to ingratiate themselves with Germans and Austrians or trying to hide their Khazar ancestry). These African and Iranic soldiers left many descendants who tend to have black, heavy hair and dark eyes even yet. Beethoven and Hitler are two famous examples of this group (Peanuts). It is interesting to imagine Hitler's reaction to someone telling him he probably got his heavy, black hair from Black African ancestry. Since this was so long ago, with population movement and inter-marriage, all Europeans must have some ancestry from these Black African soldiers. In sixty generations, a person could leave 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants with just two children per person each generation so long as no descendants married each other. Obviously, after a time, many descendants will marry each other, but still it works out statistically that most people from that long ago who left descendants at all are ancestors of everyone in Europe today. The tendency for people to stay in their own community explains why we can see the effects along the Danube and in the Black Forest in the people with black hair and dark eyes but do not see it far away like Iceland. The concentration is far greater at the point of origin, but the dispersion radiates out to everywhere given enough time.
posted
I'm all for progress. We should not be re-debating issues which were settled long time ago. And this is my biggest complaint about afrocentrism. No progress, always rehashing the old stuff. Don't you Blacks have a brain? Well use it then!
Where I disagree with Mike Nassau is that he is silent about the black or brown colour of these Black Dutch. Europeans were thoroughly familiar how a Black person, a African, looks because they had all these slaves working for them. So when they baptised these Black Europeans as Black Dutch, they meant business. They were African looking, not merely black haired and black eyed. The same goes for the Black Irish. I do not see people using 'Black' in a perjorative way, if the victim only happened to have black hair and eyes.
I would like somebody to respond to this and not on the other bullshit postings.
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posted
No European was known as 'Black Dutch.' The term is a 19th century American term used to describe dark headed people with German last names. There were no black people in northern Europe to speak of until the post WW II era, especially after 1970.
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: No European was known as 'Black Dutch.' The term is a 19th century American term used to describe dark headed people with German last names. There were no black people in northern Europe to speak of until the post WW II era, especially after 1970.
Why the hell do you not post your goddam sources so we can make some progress overhere?
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If people took some time to read all my sources they will discover that some type of Albinism is more or less heriditary. Some type of Albinism permits tanning. And some type of Albinism permits brown eye and hair color.I guess much more research is needed. The other theories which I have posted sounded to much like a house of cards, with many maybies and perhapses. Then I also posted a URL to a photograph which is supposed to show a Albino family in Nepal. If they are a genetical family, I do not know.
-------------------- Research everything, believe nothing.(Immanuel Kant) Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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[Francois de la Nouë: 17 century, old nobility, Frenchman, scholar, Huguenot military leader, named 'Bras de fer.' Most people will agree with me that he is black of skin, and a member of a fixed mulatto race]
[Jan Wicherides, illigitemate son of Dutch Governor Jan Wichers and a ex-slave Adjuba van Westerlust. His children married into the Dutch elite, a grandson becoming meir of Rotterdam]
ON THE EUROPEAN FIXED ALBINO RACE (1500-1789)
After more as three years of careful scientific based research I have formulated a definition for the European elite 1500-1789 as ‘An intermarrying (endogamic), fixed mulatto race, with some looking more African, Asian or White, but sharing a Black identity which was called Blue Blood.’ Blue blood was symbolised in art by a Moor, a Classical African.
This is based on personal descriptions as ‘The Black Boy, Brown, chimney sweep, black as chimney, more brown then white, basané (dark brown), noir et basané (black brown)or swarthy,’ Or on euphemisms as ‘bad complexion, ugly, of low birth or not the white hands.’ When I set out to look for portraits I discovered that these noble and royal persons who were described as ‘noir et basané’ or (self-) described as ‘Black’ were depicted as Whites.
But dogged research also unearthed some portraits, mostly prints, which show more or less dark or black skin colour. As intermarriage is one of the cornerstones of the Nobility I see Black and Coloured people constantly interbreeding, so we end up with a fixed mulatto race.
Officially a Mulatto is a child of a White and a Black parent, like Obama. But if two Mulattoes breed we get MULATTO-TYPE children. People who have been around Black families might have noticed that the children of two parents can differ a great deal in colour and traits. Because no one is of a pure race and phenotype DNA is complex.
In 17 and 18 century Surinam there was no law which says that two mulattoes could not marry. There was no law which says that mulatto woman could only have children with White men. So I imagine a mulatto (1/2 White/1/2 Black) marrying a mesties (3/4 White, 1/4 Black) ending up with children who are (1/2 + 3/4) : 2 = A MULATTO TYPE. Imagine all these MULATTO TYPES, belonging to more or less the same social class, breeding and you end up with a FIXED MULATTO RACE.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
But dogged research also unearthed some portraits, mostly prints, which show more or less dark or black skin colour. As intermarriage is one of the cornerstones of the Nobility I see Black and Coloured people constantly interbreeding, so we end up with a fixed mulatto race.
Except, such a situation is impossible if white Europeans do indeed suffer from "albinism".
First, we will assume that Europeans suffer from "OCA"-variants of albinism:
quote:OCA type 1 is caused by a gene on chromosome 11 and is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait, meaning the an individual must inherit two defective genes for the disorder to occur. OCA type 2 is caused by a gene on chromosome 15 and is also inherited as an autosomal recessive trait. OCA type 3 is caused by a gene on chromosome 9 and is also inherited in an autosomal recessive manner.
Now, in the case of all forms of albinism, there are two phenotypes: 1. Non-albino (i.e. completely unaffected by albinism, and 2. Albino (i.e. completely affected by albinism)
* The "non-albino" phenotype will be displayed if a the person carries a single dominant - i.e. non-albino - form of the gene . * The albino phenotype however will only be displayed if the person carries two recessive - i.e. albino - forms of the gene
For example's sake, (A: Dominant non-albino gene, a: Recessive albino gene) let's say that King Shaka of Ghana (entirely non-albino, i.e. "AA") and Princess Anne of Sweden (entirely albino - as she's white - i.e. "aa") married. All possible genotypes for their children will be: Aa.
In this case, the children will only "carry" the recessive albino gene, and will display no outward effects associated with albinism. You claim that light skin in Europeans is due to "albinism", so therefore the children of white-black, or any other race for that matter, will appear completely the same race as the non-white parent - and will not be a "mixture" of the two, like the mulatto Barack Obama.
Therefore, the presence of a "fixed mulatto/albino race" is patently impossible, as the children of your vaunted "black-blooded European royalty" will either be: * As white as Northern Europeans, or * As black as Sub-Saharan Africans.
One of your arguments is wrong therefore: 1. Either there is no grounds to European royalty being "comprised of mulattos" (and judging by the photos I can't see their magical, elusive "blackness) if we go by your "Albino Theory", or 2. Europeans cannot possibly be "albinistic", going by your "Fixed Mulatto Race" theory.
Posts: 10 | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
{Note: Before I start this refutation, the only remotely "negroid" feature in that "Moorish cavalryman" - found in what was Roman Britain, by the way - was the dreadlocked hair, and even that isn't necessarily race-specific)
quote:3. Schwarze Deutsche or Black Germans, found along the Danube River in Austria and Germany, in the Black Forest and, to a lesser extent, along the Rhine River, have dark hair and eyes, unlike the fairer people both north and south of them.
Two problems already: 1. The River Danube runs north-to-south, basically - seriously now, "north and south" of where, if the river runs "north to south"? 2. As you progress further south in Europe, the number of dark-haired/dark-eyed individuals increases, while conversely the numer of light-haired/light-eyed individuals decreases -chalking this up to "Middle Eastern/Sub-Saharan/North African/Central Asian admixture" is as silly as the Nordicist nuts who claim that "Moorish/Saracen occupation darkened Hispania, Italy and Greece into a non-Nordic population".
quote:The Roman army of this time period was mostly made up of German mercenary soldiers, but along the German border, the Romans preferred to station non-Germans. The army on the Danube was largely drawn from Numidian and Nubian soldiers, especially Garamante Numidians.
I'd really like to see his evidence for this, as one could also say that the "Roman garrison of Hadrian's Wall was largely made up of Native Americans and Polynesians".
Also remember that this is just a theory on the origins of the Black Dutch/Black Germans - personally, I prefer the claim that they were the descendants of Spanish soldiers and local females.
quote:These African and Iranic soldiers left many descendants who tend to have black, heavy hair and dark eyes even yet.
Again, he falls into the fallacy of thinking of Germans as being some monolithic group of fair-eyed, fair-haired Nordic gods: Anyway, even if they were black admixture with the surrounding population would have rendered the dark eyes/hair non-existant eventually.
quote:Beethoven and Hitler are two famous examples of this group (Peanuts). It is interesting to imagine Hitler's reaction to someone telling him he probably got his heavy, black hair from Black African ancestry.
My grandfather has ancestry in the British Isles, and has "dark eyes and brown hair" - I suppose I've got a "negro-in-the-woodpile" too?
quote:In sixty generations, a person could leave 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants with just two children per person each generation so long as no descendants married each other.
And if that person was black and entirely surrounded by white people with fair hair/fair eyes (whom he mated with) how many generations would his black skin, black hair and dark eyes disappear in?
quote:The tendency for people to stay in their own community explains why we can see the effects along the Danube and in the Black Forest in the people with black hair and dark eyes but do not see it far away like Iceland.
No you twit the reason that we don't see "black-haired Icelanders" commonly is that Iceland was largely settled by Scandanavians, a large amount of whom are fair-eyed/fair-haired - damn, why doesn't he just say "the tendency for black hair in the Portugese as opposed to Russians indicates African ancestry"?
quote:I'm all for progress. We should not be re-debating issues which were settled long time ago. And this is my biggest complaint about afrocentrism. No progress, always rehashing the old stuff. Don't you Blacks have a brain? Well use it then!
Uh, I don't know if you don't know this but the WHOLE "Afrocentrist" movement is rehashing the same revisionist bullshit you stated years ago.
quote:Where I disagree with Mike Nassau is that he is silent about the black or brown colour of these Black Dutch.
Please provide pictorial evidence of these "black Dutch/Germans" then.
quote:Europeans were thoroughly familiar how a Black person, a African, looks because they had all these slaves working for them.
...except what "black" meant has changed considerably throughout history: Just like five hundred years ago the stereotypical "American" would be a savage Native American warrior, and is now a boorish white guy what "black" means has changed.
quote:. I do not see people using 'Black' in a perjorative way, if the victim only happened to have black hair and eyes.
...except "black Dutch" was often used by Melungeons, and other mixed-race Americans to "pass" for white by using American ignorance of Europe - just like quadroons would later claim that they were "Southern Italians".
Posts: 10 | Registered: Sep 2008
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[Francois de la Nouë, Huguenot leader, scholar, a European nobel, named 'Bras de fer' because he lost an arm which he replaced with a iron one. He looks black of skin to most people I show this to. So how does such a pitch black man becomes part of the old French nobilty, these people who claim Blue Blood?]
[Francois de la Nouë again, but this time looking White. I find this intriguing. Why does one portrait show him as pitch black and the other one as a dark Italian. Can the same person be both? Between these two sets of portraits, from which I have collected a lot, many scientific questions arise in a inquisitive mind as mine. But it started when I looked for a portrait of 18 century baron Aarnoud Joost van der Duyn van Maasdam, of ancient nobility and the highest military leader in the southern provinces, described by barones van Zuylen as ‘black brown.’ The only submitted portrait shows a White, blue-eyed man. Why?]
Dear Eurosceptic,
The only thing left for you to do NOW is disclose your learned theory about how White people came into this world.
Most people regard skin color as an adaptation to environment. And most people agree that the first humans, living in East Africa, were at least brown of skin, pretty much like the people who still live there.
The only way we know of a White looking person coming out of Blacks is by the proces of mutation, which is Albinism. So do not faulth me for looking in that direction.
Then we never heard of a Black coming out of White parents, like some Reversed Albinism: shall we call it 'Nigrinism?'
So, as I like to make progress, I need some kind of theory, some reconstruction of the past, to move on. Unless you explain to us how Black people became White people you are not helping a bit.
Egmond Codfried
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
SOURCES OF MIKE NASSAU FOR HIS ARTICLE ‘BLACK DUTCH.’
A REPLY BY BILL KREINER SOURCE: ONEDROPRULE.ORG
I browsed through Rogers's books tonight, and even though I have read them a few times, every time I look through them I am in awe that one man researched, wrote, and published all of this himself. He must have been very bright, and he did an excellent job. Of course, as mentioned above, claims made about people based on eyeballing are not very persuasive. To be sure, some other claims about this or that group being "Negroid" seem a bit farfetched as well; but in nearly all of these cases, he cites the work of someone else, usually an anthropologist. He is not merely making this stuff up. So, these beliefs, whatever we may think of them now, were once held by some members of the scientific community or other prominent people. There are numerous quotations. As said before, his examples of Afro-European mixing, and the data given about the absorption of Africans into European and other populations, are interesting in the extreme, and quite accurate. Rogers was remarkable in that he did not believe in the existence of biological races. In his time, belief in same was standard. So, it must be remembered when he uses words such as "Negroid" he is referring to an appearance resembling some Africans, and, incidentally, does not always suggest this sort of appearance is due to direct mixture with sub-Saharans.
I am impressed that Egmond knows of the work of Rogers, and also the work of Snowden, whose two books I also have.
By the way, I can't believe I still have it, from way back in '02, but I did find the e-mail from Mike Nassau (it didn't copy very well from Hotmail, as some words are run together; I tried to separate as many as I could quickly spot); it seems he did list sources that he found on a website that he checked after he read my e-mail, but couldn't recall where he picked up the bit about the Garamantes in Germany (Rogers also quotes others who have made mentioning’s of Africans being stationed near Germanic territory in Roman times, such as the Danube river, so there likely is some truth to it) :
Garamante in Germany... From: Mike and Gloria Nassau Sent: Sun 1/27/02 12:39 PM To: teutoni@hotmail.com
Dear Bill Kreiner,
Very interesting question. I don't know where I picked that up, likely partof theBlack American rewriting of history in the sixties ("Black Consciousness"movement). I put Garamantes and Roman in as search terms in Googlehttp://google.comand found a lot of things.
See:http://www.ancienthistory.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/1024/news/35.html The foremost expert on the Garamantes in the Anglophone world appears to beDavid Mattingly, see:http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/area/idmes/MATTINGLY,David.htm
There is an email address for him there. I guess we could ask him. The following references are from http://www.ucd.ie/~classics/africa.htm under "Military" :
D.Cherry, Frontier and Society in Roman North Africa (1998) C.M.Daniels, The Garamantes of Southern Libya (1970) C.Daniels, The Frontiers: Africa. in: J.Wacher (ed), The Roman Empire(1987) E.W.B.Fentress, Numidia and the Roman Army. BAR Int. 53 (Oxford 1979) R.G.Goodchild, Le limes Tripolitanus. Journal of Roman Studies 40(1950)30-8. M.Janon, Remarques sur la frontière de Numidie.in: V.A.Maxfield, andM.J.Dobson, Roman Frontier Studies 1989 (1991) 482-484. Y. Le Bohec, La Troisième Légion Auguste (1989) Y. Le Bohec, Le auxilia (1992) B.D.Shaw, Soldiers and society: the army in Numidia (1983) M.Speidel, The Roman Army in North Africa. Journal of Roman Archaeology 5(1992) P.Trousset, Le camp de Gemellae sur le mimes de Numidie d'après les fouillesdu colonel Baradez (1947-1950). In: J.Fitz (ed), Limes. Akten des XI.Internationalen Limeskongresses (1977) 559-577. P.Trousset, Signification d'une frontière: nomades et sedentaires dans laszone du limes d'Afrique. In: W.S. Hanson, L.J.F.Keppie, Roman FrontierStudies 1979. BAR 71(iii) (1980) C.M.Wells, The problems of Desert Frontiers. Chairman's Notes on theSession. in: V.A.Maxfield, and M.J.Dobson, Roman Frontier Studies 1989(1991) 478-481. C.R.Whittaker, Frontiers of the Roman Empire. A Social and Economic Study(1997) esp. Chapters 1-3
The funny thing is that that has been out there since I published "Melungeons and Other Mestee Groups" (see:http://www.multiracial.com/readers/nassau.html ) in 1994. (search for Garamante). This is the version put on-line by the Multiracial Activist, which is the easiest to search, part of http://www.multiracial.com/issues/issues-melungeon.html
No one else has ever questioned it. I would now question the predominance of Garamantes among the Numidian and Nubian (Black) soldiers of the Roman army. The Black presence on the German frontier of the Roman Empire I believe is real, though perhaps overstated. My wife is of Black German ancestry; all four of her grandparents came to America from Germany. She has black hair, brown eyes and lobe less ears, as well as a dark complexion. Nassau is her maiden name, I took it when we married. I think the lobe less ears are almost absolute proof of Black African ancestry. I have naturally flat feet and keloïd scars, both of which prove non-European ancestry, both likely from Black African ancestors.
Mike
>> A Touch Of Gray <teutoni> wrote:> >
Hi Mr. Nassau:>>
I recently came across a few articles posted by you regarding "Schwarze Deutsch" people. My ancestors come from the Black Forest region of Germany,and were referred to as "Schwarz." My father has a swarthy complexion, black hair, and dark eyes. He was born in a German section of Hungary, since his ancestors migrated from the Black Forest to what is now Hungary during the 1700s. To my knowledge, they only interacted with other Germans while intheir new home.>> Your article is the first place I have ever seen mentioned anything about black troops having been stationed in this region and along the Danube River during Roman times. I was totally unaware of the Garamantes' presence there and there having been a black population in Vindobona, as well as their total absorption into the population. Can you site me any sources which describe this? Can you give me any more details on the subject? I am quite interested in learning more about this. I post on a message board called Racial Myths, and your article might be of interest.
>> Sincerely,>> Bill Kreiner
quote:Originally posted by Egmond Codfried:
[A 'Moorish Cavalryman' with dreadlocks, fitting the description of the Garamante warriors. British Museum]
To me this article by Mike Nassau proves that way into the 17th century, there were Black looking peoples arriving in America from Europe, Black Dutch, who were not mixed with enslaved Africans. They were Native European Blacks.
Egmond Codfried ================================================== BLACK DUTCH by Mike Nassau
fragment:
3. Schwarze Deutsche or Black Germans, found along the Danube River in Austria and Germany, in the Black Forest and, to a lesser extent, along the Rhine River, have dark hair and eyes, unlike the fairer people both north and south of them. Their descendants in America may be called either Black Dutch or Black German. The origin of their dark coloration is ancient, from the Roman army in the third and fourth centuries, C.E. The Roman army of this time period was mostly made up of German mercenary soldiers, but along the German border, the Romans preferred to station non-Germans. The army on the Danube was largely drawn from Numidian and Nubian soldiers, especially Garamante Numidians. The Garamante (called Tubu now) were Black Africans from the central Sahara. Now the Tubu live in northern Chad, eastern Niger and southern Libya. They are not usually found north of Marzuk in Fezzan or Kufra in Cyrenaica now, but in Roman times they ranged north to the central coast of Libya and to Ghadames in southern Tunisia. As well as Garamante, there were some Iranic people stationed on this frontier, especially Sarmatians (called Ossets now) and Scythians (Ashkenazi in the Hebrew Bible) from southern Russia and the Ukraine (Ashkenaz, the old Hebrew for Scythia, has been used for Germany in modern Hebrew by Ashkenazic Jews trying to ingratiate themselves with Germans and Austrians or trying to hide their Khazar ancestry). These African and Iranic soldiers left many descendants who tend to have black, heavy hair and dark eyes even yet. Beethoven and Hitler are two famous examples of this group (Peanuts). It is interesting to imagine Hitler's reaction to someone telling him he probably got his heavy, black hair from Black African ancestry. Since this was so long ago, with population movement and inter-marriage, all Europeans must have some ancestry from these Black African soldiers. In sixty generations, a person could leave 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 descendants with just two children per person each generation so long as no descendants married each other. Obviously, after a time, many descendants will marry each other, but still it works out statistically that most people from that long ago who left descendants at all are ancestors of everyone in Europe today. The tendency for people to stay in their own community explains why we can see the effects along the Danube and in the Black Forest in the people with black hair and dark eyes but do not see it far away like Iceland. The concentration is far greater at the point of origin, but the dispersion radiates out to everywhere given enough time.
posted
STUART, STOP ALL THIS PICTURE SPAMMING, WE GET YOUR POINT!!! Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Heru-(London's Finest): STUART, STOP ALL THIS PICTURE SPAMMING, WE GET YOUR POINT!!!
SO WHAT IS IT THIS TIME? DID YOU GNAWED YOUR STRAIGHTJACKET, DID THE CLINIC RELEASED YOU PRIMATURELY OR DID YOUR PERSCRIPTION LAPSE? YOU KNOW YOU CAN PHONE THEM TO SEND YOU SOME.Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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Madame de Kerouaille with a Moor, a little girl, symbol for her Blue Blood. Noble French mistress of Charles II Stuart.Whitened.Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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