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First of all Doug nobody ever said that Greece was the oldest civilization, where did you get that? What they say is that Greek civilization was "home grown" and that it developed inside the borders of Greece without substantial outside influence. Greece fought in the east but they were not eastern, they were greek. Their civilization is the mother of ours. Greek civilization put it's stamp on all of Europe and what you see in the west today is the evolutionary end of what they began.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Greek people were home grown but Greek civilization was not. Greek civilization had MANY elements that were came from the older civilizations of the EAST and Africa. NO SCHOLAR actually denies this. YOU are the one saying this. Which is makes no sense.
NO civilization is an isolated island to itself, including ancient Greece. All cultures and civilizations are "homegrown", meaning having their own unique identity, but they still have elements that are borrowed and adopted from ELSEWHERE, again Greece included.
The ancient Greeks were NOT the mothers of "Western" civilization because they NEVER OCCUPIED the WEST of Europe. The influenced the Romans who did occupy WESTERN Europe and was the DIRECT parent of so-called Western civilization. But that civilization was MOST PROFOUNDLY based on the teachings of the Muslims who brought the teachings of THE EAST, including those of the Greeks, into Europe. The WEST never had direct contact with the Greeks, while those cultures in the Muslim lands TO THE EAST, DID have direct contact with the Greeks, but they also had other cultural influences that PREDATE the Greeks. THAT is what was the basis of WESTERN civilization and it was EASTERN oriented.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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You are off in never never land Doug and seriously mistaken. I asked you to find me a Classical scholar to support your view and what I get is more of this wild afrocentricism. I hope you were not raised in the west because if so, you missed the primary points offered in your western civ class.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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You haven't asked me jack. And I don't need to provide anything because those FACTS are beyond dispute.
What you need to understand is that the Greeks were not IN the WEST of Europe. Learn Geography. No matter how "homegrown" their culture was, it was NOT in Western Europe and NOT a product of "western" civilization. Greece was and has ALWAYS been part of the Eastern sphere, culturally and physically. YOU are the one who refuses to see the obvious. Greece was part of the EAST for MOST of its history. From the pinnacle of the Hellenistic empire of Alexander which covered Mesopotamia to India, it was eastern. After the fall of Rome it was part of the Byzantine Empire which was centered in Turkey and the EASTERN Mediterranean.
Then it became part of the OTTOMAN Empire for another 400 years right into the 19th century. All of these empires were within the same historical boundaries of the EASTERN empires of the Persians and Hellenes. NONE of these empires were in THE WEST of Europe. NONE of the ideas about civilization CAME from the WEST. Civilization DID NOT COME from the WEST. And GREECE was certainly NOT ORIENTED TO THE WEST OF EUROPE. Learn to read and understand geography. Greece is NOT A PRODUCT OF WESTERN EUROPE, has NO direct connection with WESTERN EUROPE and NEVER occupied WESTERN EUROPE. There IS NO DIRECT association between ancient Greece and WESTERN Europe. So ancient Greece was NOT WESTERN geographically OR CULTURALLY, it was EASTERN. NO scholar actually disputes this. ONLY YOU dispute it.
The Greeks were NOT the first to study nature. They were NOT the first to study the heavens. They were NOT the first to worship gods. They were NOT the first to develop mythology. They were NOT the first to write. They were NOT the first to practice warfare. They were NOT the first to practice sailing. They were NOT the first to discuss wisdom. ALL of these things that you claim to be "Western" are NOT western. They existed and were CREATED LONG BEFORE THE GREEKS. It is basically pure and simple NONSENSE to pretend that the Greeks were the FATHERS of all these things and that all these things are unique to "The West". That is BULLSH*T.
Bottom line, there is NOTHING unique or NEW about what the Greeks did that is UNIQUE to "the West" or that makes "the West" a cradle of ANYTHING. "The West" isn't a cradle of ANYTHING and it is only in the last few hundred years that "the west" actually came into existence as a geopolitical concept. It did NOT EXIST as a major force in human history or affairs for MOST of the last 5,000 years.
Those are facts and you can consult anyone you want on it.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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Doug, You are silly. You have bought so deeply into this afrocentric view of the world you have accepted nonsence for history. If you are not careful it will, in the end, make you almost uneducatable. I have in front of me, I am looking at it as I write a copy of Glencoe's world history text. The single most popular text used by American secondary schools. None of the things you are promoting are in there. There is nothing , zippo, about Persians starting democracy. In Section 4 on page 121 the text spends time explaining to our young students why Greek civilization is the foundation of western civilization. There is not a single mention of persia, none of Egypt etc etc. This is 10th grade history Doug. By accepting this Afrocentric nonsense you have just decided to live your life in a fairytale land. You are way too smart and write too well to condem yourself to that fate.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Mr Patriot, you are the one presenting silliness. The Greeks did not invent "civilization" as a separate and distinct activity SEPARATE from all the other civilizations of the ancient world. Their civilization was "homegrown" but with DIRECT influence from the older civilizations of the East as well as Africa.
You have yet to address HOW ancient Greece is "WESTERN" when NONE of Greece is in Western Europe and the culture and identity of ancient Greece had NOTHING in common with the Western parts of Europe at the time. The culture and civilization of ancient Greece had CLOSE similarities with the EAST as it is the EAST and Africa where civilization originated.
No matter how you slice it or how you try and claim it as being otherwise, Greece is NOT the birthplace of civilization. It is ONE civilization of MANY that have come along and ALL of them have DEEPLY influenced Western thought and culture.
All this nonsense about Afrocentric this and that has NOTHING to do with this point.
Show me how Greek culture is WESTERN when NONE of it originates IN THE WEST. NONE of it. When YOU can show me this, then I will listen to you, because you haven't got a CLUE what you are talking about.
"Western" civilization is a MODERN geopolitical term referring to the MODERN cultures of Western Europe and the colonies they created. NONE of these cultures had ANY DIRECT connection to ancient Greece. NONE of them. Not Britain, Not Germany, Not France and Not the Americas. The only ones that had any contact with ancient Greece was parts of Italy and Spain. MOST of the "Greek world" was in the EAST and it is in the EAST that Greek culture had the BIGGEST impact. But this was a CONTINUATION of the activities of VARIOUS civilizations that had ALREADY been active in these regions for 3000 years. NOBODY disputes this, except you.
So why don't YOU can show how the WESTERN world had DIRECT contact with ancient Greece and SIMILAR patterns of culture and thought as the Greeks? YOU CANT. There was no ancient Greece when the term "Western" civilization was created and the cultures that created it had NO contact with ancient Greece.
No scholar disputes this except YOU.
Influence is not direct contact. The WRITINGS of the ancient Greeks had INFLUENCE over the development of the "Western" world, but so did Egypt, China, Mesopotamia, Babylon, the Americas and many other cultures, because "Western" culture as it expanded INTERACTED with and ABSORBED many of the traditions of ALL these ANCIENT civilizations and added them to its own "cultural" framework.
You need to stop spouting propaganda and start making sense.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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And bottom line, western Europe and "western" civilization is NOT GREECE. The only people that have DIRECT connections to ancient Greeks are the Greeks themselves, Turkey and parts of central Asia and India in the East. NONE of WESTERN Europe has ANY direct claim to or inheritance from GREECE. You need to claim the ACTUAL history and cultures of WESTERN Europe going back 5,000 years and stop CLINGING to something that WESTERN Europe had NOTHING to do with.
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Possibly you should tell our thousands of public school teachers that they are all incorrect and are misleading our kids. You might also inform classical scholars that they are simply all wrong. That their years of deep and intensive study was incorrect. Why do you insist on isolating western europe. Greek culture spread through Rome to all of Europe and indeed to the united States as well. Ever look at the architecture in Wasshington DC Doug? You are hopelessly uneducated. If you cannot understand what we all consider the basics how can you get anything else right. We teach this stuff to our high school sophomores because they must have a strong foundation before they can learn anything else.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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Doug, Greco-Roman civilization spread through Rome to Western Europe. You are forgetting that Gaul, Spain and Britian were Roman provinces for centuries. After the fall of the empire the catholic church in Rome stepped in to fill the void and spread Greco-Roman culture throughout Europe in what we call the 'Barbarian Conversion.' What developed was a fairly unified European culture based on Greco-Roman principles. None of this involved Egypt. No two cultures could be more different than the Egyptians and the Greeks.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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SO? How does this make Greco-Roman civilization WESTERN? Greece and Rome were in the SOUTH EAST of Europe not the West. The civilization and culture they had was the result of far OLDER influences from THE SOUTH EAST. WESTERN EUROPE did not have ANY similarity to the culture and civilization that was INTRODUCED by the Romans. Therefore, it is FALSE that civilization arose in the WEST and therefore can be called WESTERN. Civilization arose IN THE EAST and migrated WEST through Greece and Rome and was FURTHER influenced by advanced cultures and civilizations of the East by the Muslims.
No matter how you slice it, "Western" civilization is not a realistic description of the ROOTS of civilization. The ROOTS of civilization are in the South and the East of Europe not WESTERN EUROPE.
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Doug, the term western does not distinguish one part of Europe from the other, it distinguishes the west (Euro-America) from the east. Wester Europe has nothing to do with it, they recieved Greek civilization, they did not create it. The term 'Western Civilization' distinguishes our civilization from the ones you mentioned.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Fine, and that is an afrocentric point of view. So you say it is not about afrocentrism and continue to support their position. Experts do not agree with you. I asked you to post a single classical scholar who supports that position.
Professor, all classical scholars agree that Greek civilization developed during the archaic periods of the Bronze Age and before then during the Neolithic! Neolithic culture was introduced to Greece and the rest of Europe by Asians and Africans.
quote:First of all Doug nobody ever said that Greece was the oldest civilization, where did you get that? What they say is that Greek civilization was "home grown" and that it developed inside the borders of Greece without substantial outside influence. Greece fought in the east but they were not eastern, they were greek. Their civilization is the mother of ours. Greek civilization put it's stamp on all of Europe and what you see in the west today is the evolutionary end of what they began.
Irrelevant to the issue that civilization in Greece was the result of Neolithic immigrants from Asia Minor and Africa.
Posts: 26339 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Find me a classical scholar who will outline this so called influence you speak of and I will agree. You and I both know you cannot. This is all nonsense. You are creating a complete historical construct based on a theory you cannot substantiate. Quote these classical scholars you speak of.
Neolithic cultures had nothing to do with classical Greece. Nobody believes that. The Indo Europeans did not even arrive in Greece until 2000 BC and the people they encountered were not from Asia or Africa.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Find me a classical scholar who will outline this so called influence you speak of and I will agree. You and I both know you cannot.
All scholars know Classical Greece was built upon Archaic Greece.
quote:This is all nonsense. You are creating a complete historical construct based on a theory you cannot substantiate. Quote these classical scholars you speak of.
Eva C Keuls, Oscar Broneer, and George Mylonas to name just a few.
quote:Neolithic cultures had nothing to do with classical Greece. Nobody believes that. The Indo Europeans did not even arrive in Greece until 2000 BC and the people they encountered were not from Asia or Africa.
Are you saying the urbanized farming cultures that lay the foundation for civilization had nothing to do with later Classical civilization?? Also, we have archaeological evidence that these peoples are of Asian and African descent which is further verified by genetic evidence. You also obviously do not know that all of this verifies the Greeks own legends.
Posts: 26339 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yes, The neolithic cultures had zero to do with Classical greece. You cannot tie one, not a single classical greek acomplishment to the people you speak of. You do not even know anything about the gene you try to promote. This is all ignorant afrocentric nonsense. Further, you will find no classical schholar that will make the connection you are trying to make.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Doug, the term western does not distinguish one part of Europe from the other, it distinguishes the west (Euro-America) from the east. Wester Europe has nothing to do with it, they recieved Greek civilization, they did not create it. The term 'Western Civilization' distinguishes our civilization from the ones you mentioned.
WESTERN is a geographical term. It distinguishes Europe from the East and is centered around WESTERN Europe as a distinct geopolitical construct. The point I made which YOU AGREE WITH is that in reality NOTHING about ancient Greece was WESTERN. It was NOT oriented to the West and therefore was not WESTERN in ANY sense of the word.
The civilization of the "West" is based on a pattern of development that arose in Greece but that pattern was oriented TO THE EAST and WAS NOT WESTERN. Greek civilization and culture was a PRODUCT OF THE EAST, as in South Eastern EUROPE and other cultures TO THE EAST. There was NO similarity between GREEK culture in 500 B.C. and ANY OTHER PART of Northern or Western Europe and CERTAINLY had nothing to do with the Americas. "Western civilization" is a RECENT term and a RECENT geopolitical construct that has NOTHING to do with ANCIENT GREECE because it does NOT represent the GEOPOLITICAL context of the HELLENISTIC Empire.
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Doug, This is a really stupid conversation. Your position is not much more bizarre that those in the flat earth society. Where in the world did you come up with this idea of western Europe? All of Europe is a part of western civilization, not just the western part. Naturally there was a difference between greece in 500 BC and northern Europe. Greek civilization SPREAD to those areas. This is not rocket science Doug....you can get this. Greco Roman civilization spread over Europe. It does matter that it wasn't there in the beginning.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Doug, This is a really stupid conversation. Your position is not much more bizarre that those in the flat earth society. Where in the world did you come up with this idea of western Europe? All of Europe is a part of western civilization, not just the western part. Naturally there was a difference between greece in 500 BC and northern Europe. Greek civilization SPREAD to those areas. This is not rocket science Doug....you can get this. Greco Roman civilization spread over Europe. It does matter that it wasn't there in the beginning.
You can't read. What I said was that Greece in 500 BC had NO similarity in culture or civilization to the cultures to the WEST of Europe. It had a greater similarity to the cultures of the South and the East and was ORIENTED to the East. NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with people who did not begin to become civilized until over 1000 years later in WESTERN Europe. MODERN Western Europe is based on the culture of ancient Greece, but that culture of Greece was DERIVED FROM THE EAST, not the WEST, as in WESTERN Europe. Greece NEVER occupied Western Europe, NEVER built cities there and never created colonies there.
You keep getting it backwards as usual.
The point is that the term Western civilization is an attempt to LINK the people descended from those cultures considered as BARBARIANS by BOTH the Greeks AND the Romans to ancient cultures they HAD NOTHING to do with at the time those ancient cultures existed.
Western civilization, is a MODERN geopolitical construct that has NOTHING to do with the GEOPOLITICAL world of the ancient Greeks.
Modern western civilization is a product of the activities of the people in the WEST of Europe, including colonizing the Americas and creating nations there. This was not based around the activities of the Greeks or even the Italians. It was based around the activities of the British, Spanish, French and Portuguese, more than anyone else. And it is the people of these countries that had LITTLE to do with the culture of ancient Greece, even though they claim to be direct heirs.
Greece has historically been part of the EAST, whether the EASTERN Roman empire, the Hellenistic empire OF THE EAST, the OTTOMAN Empire. It has been under an Eastern geopolitical construct FOR MOST of its history. YOU have NO concept of history and Greece.
Geopolitical context of the ancient Greeks: Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Yes, The neolithic cultures had zero to do with Classical greece. You cannot tie one, not a single classical greek acomplishment to the people you speak of. You do not even know anything about the gene you try to promote. This is all ignorant afrocentric nonsense. Further, you will find no classical schholar that will make the connection you are trying to make.
So you're saying the urbanization, writing, and science of their neolithic predecessors had nothing to do with Classical civilization?? Are you saying the Classical Greeks developed urbanization, writing, and science all of sudden in a matter of a few centuries despite the existence of all these from millennia earlier??? Posts: 26339 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I can read Doug...IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT THEY HAD NO CULTURAL CONNECTION TO NORTHERN EUROPE IN 500BC. It MATTERS that their civilization spread to those areas. Doug, I know you know more than all of our classical Greek scholars because they do not believe classical greece came from the east. Classical greece has nothing in common with the east. "home Grown: means their civilization developed "Inside Greece" not from somewhere else. What in the hell does the conquest of alexander have to do with anything. Classic Greece was developed fully LONG before that. I have asked you to find a single classical scholar who agrees with you and you cannot do it. You cannot do it because there is not one. Northern and western Europe adopted Greco Roman cluture that was developed fully withing greece and rome in antiquity.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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urbanization, writing and science are common to all post neolithic cultures. I am saying , as do all greek scholars that western civilization grew up in Greece "home grown" free of those in the east. The Greeks developed "western" civilization. They did not develop chinese civilization or Egyptian civilization or any other civilization. You can roll your eyes Djehuti but you know better. This is why afrocentric philosophy is such a joke. Nobody takes you guys seriously when you come up with these goofey, half thought out ideas.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: urbanization, writing and science are common to all post neolithic cultures...
Wrong! All those things grew out of neolithic cultures. Plant domestication or agriculture led to settled communities and mass food production which led to everything else you call 'civilization'.
quote:...I am saying , as do all greek scholars that western civilization grew up in Greece "home grown" free of those in the east. The Greeks developed "western" civilization. They did not develop chinese civilization or Egyptian civilization or any other civilization.
You are partially correct. Of course Greek civilization grew in Greece but it was not as you say "free" from other cultures who influenced it.
quote:You can roll your eyes Djehuti but you know better. This is why afrocentric philosophy is such a joke. Nobody takes you guys seriously when you come up with these goofey, half thought out ideas.
Really then why does this mainstream source seem to support 'afrocentric' theme.
...What we generally call "Greek philosophy" was almost certainly derived by the Greeks from Egyptian culture, particularly natural science (physics and math) which preoccupied Greek thought up to the time of Plato. The Greeks seem also to have derived much of their philosophical theology from the Egyptians as well.
Instead of rolling my eyes, I might as well just *yawn* at your usual drivel. Posts: 26339 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Southern Europeans are on average darker than their northern European counterparts. This is reality that finds expression in skin tone maps and hair color maps.
And also, noting the UV radiation differentiation as one goes from southern Europe to the northern regions therein...
...every group on the same geographical latitudes as Europe appear to have the beige-like shade, save for that northwestern corner of Europe.
Where is the source of these Skin Tone and UV exposure maps? The map of the US does not reflect the black population of the eastern coast which is 40-50% black. I mean dark black. South America seems to be incomplete also.
I'd appreciate a link to the source. Thanks in advance
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yep. Total nonsense. He keeps saying "home grown" as if the Greeks invented math, science, art, agriculture, architecture, theology, thinking, writing, language and everything else ALL BY THEMSELVES and it just HAPPENED to have similarities to other cultures around it that pre dated it. And this was all by coincidence...... Please. ALL ancient cultures and civilizations were "home grown", but they all had influences from one another. ESPECIALLY those from around the Mediterranean. Greece did not just POP UP out of nowhere surrounded by ancient cultures and civilizations ALL ON ITS OWN.
And NONE of this "home grown" nonsense has ANYTHING to do with WESTERN Europe or THE WEST in any sense. Greece is in South EAST Europe so however "home grown" it was, it was home grown in SOUTH EAST Europe.
And Mr Patriot, if "The West" is primarily geopolitically oriented to the colonies of THE WEST by Europeans, then ancient Greece was in THE EAST because its main expansion and colonies were TO THE EAST.
Again look and tell me which part of the map is IN THE WEST in ANY sense of the word:
How about NONE of it. It is just THE OPPOSITE of the West as a geopolitical construct and this area IS called THE EAST on the modern geopolitical map.
Holla back when you get some sense and learn how to read a map.
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^ Doug, could you please cut the picture size down??
By the way, Alexander's empire has little to do with the fact that Greek civilization developed due to Neolithic migrations from Asia and Africa as well as later influence from these regions during the Bronze Age!
Posts: 26339 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Southern Europeans are on average darker than their northern European counterparts. This is reality that finds expression in skin tone maps and hair color maps.
And also, noting the UV radiation differentiation as one goes from southern Europe to the northern regions therein...
...every group on the same geographical latitudes as Europe appear to have the beige-like shade, save for that northwestern corner of Europe.
Where is the source of these Skin Tone and UV exposure maps? The map of the US does not reflect the black population of the eastern coast which is 40-50% black. I mean dark black. South America seems to be incomplete also.
I'd appreciate a link to the source. Thanks in advance
posted
You are putting forth a neoithic culture you cannot even name. Show me how this mysterous neolithic culture led to Greek democracy. Sophocles? Aristotle? Connect these neolithic people tp Plato?
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Doug, could you please cut the picture size down??
By the way, Alexander's empire has little to do with the fact that Greek civilization developed due to Neolithic migrations from Asia and Africa as well as later influence from these regions during the Bronze Age!
Huh? Alexanders empire is the DIRECT result of competition between Greece and the Persian Empire, which is one of the reasons for the expansion of Hellenistic Greece.
Alexander is the lynch pin of what makes the Greeks GREAT in the minds of the West. Without Alexander there is no Greek empire, there is no Alexandria and there is no passing down of the works of the Greeks written there and elsewhere that were supposedly so formative of "western" thought.
Neolithic cultures absolutely laid the foundation of Greece, but the classical world of Greece in the minds of the West is based around Alexander and his generals and the writings and scholarship they encouraged.
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Greek thought that created western civ had been around for 250 years before Alexander. Aristotle was Alexander's teacher....you are reaching Doug. Where is the Persian or Egyptian Sophocles, I'll tell you where....it did not exist.
Prove the neolithic culture that you know nothing about was the foundation, give me specific examples.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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^ Patriot is correct on that part alone! The Classical period was before Alexander. It was Alexander that ushered in the Hellenistic period right after. But it was during the Hellenistic period that Greece absorbed even more influence from the East such as advanced mechanics and machinery. So Hore is still wrong.
Doug, could you not use the smaller map of the Hellenistic empire from earlier?? Seriously, I don't see what difference it would make using a larger one except it causes unnecessary scrolling.
Posts: 26339 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:and say the Greeks stole their classical philosophy even though that obviously was not the case at all!
Oh really? Well Mary if you actually went on the link you keep running from you would have realized that wasnt the case at all.
But I suspect you already know this, which is why you refuse to go back there! LOLOL
Is it clear yet that there is a STOLEN LEGACY and it is perfectly valid, legal, moral and dutiful to declare, "**** stinks."...I doubt you've studied James. Until you start citing him in your refutations I'm not bothering to respond after this post.The link
quote:...What we generally call "Greek philosophy" was almost certainly derived by the Greeks from Egyptian culture, particularly natural science (physics and math) which preoccupied Greek thought up to the time of Plato. The Greeks seem also to have derived much of their philosophical theology from the Egyptians as well.
Oh my! What do we have here?! An indirect concession on Mary's part! LOLOLOL
Mary finally admits that her position on Greek philosophy being "home grown" was total BS by pretending to hold the above quoted position! LOLOLOL
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Southern Europeans are on average darker than their northern European counterparts. This is reality that finds expression in skin tone maps and hair color maps.
And also, noting the UV radiation differentiation as one goes from southern Europe to the northern regions therein...
...every group on the same geographical latitudes as Europe appear to have the beige-like shade, save for that northwestern corner of Europe.
Where is the source of these Skin Tone and UV exposure maps? The map of the US does not reflect the black population of the eastern coast which is 40-50% black. I mean dark black. South America seems to be incomplete also.
I'd appreciate a link to the source. Thanks in advance
LOL, I'm not attempting to "win" anything. What's the prize? Just attempting to compile additional facts. Why you engaging with American Hammer. Don't you realize you'll chase your tail in an infinite loop? LOL, 12 pages and Hammer hasn't provided one link or source yet, and I seriously doubt he ever will.
Some day you'll have to actually dispute the FACTS, while leaving your emotions aside...4 eyes
Who posted an over sized image and skewed the page like this?
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
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^ Mary "engages" the Hammer because he needs someone who is MORE Eurocentric than he to make him look good.
The truth is Mary is just as bigoted as Hammer. Thinks George GM James book is a "silly" and "Afrocentric" (though he never read it) and maintains Greek "classical" philosophy was "home grown", without any proof and refuses to give any.Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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Southern Europeans are on average darker than their northern European counterparts. This is reality that finds expression in skin tone maps and hair color maps.
And also, noting the UV radiation differentiation as one goes from southern Europe to the northern regions therein...
...every group on the same geographical latitudes as Europe appear to have the beige-like shade, save for that northwestern corner of Europe.
Where is the source of these Skin Tone and UV exposure maps? The map of the US does not reflect the black population of the eastern coast which is 40-50% black. I mean dark black. South America seems to be incomplete also.
I'd appreciate a link to the source. Thanks in advance
This map is based on Biasutti's research. Since then, other researchers like Brace, Montagu, Jablonski, Chaplin et al. had undertaken their own examples of research to this end, and for the most part, they converge on the results. North America doesn't show dark skin ranges that would represent Black populations of the Americas; rather, it is just taking into account that of the groups deemed to be the "aboriginal" American populations, or should I say, groups that lived in the region since the EpiPaleolithic and/or early Holocene era, as opposed to very recent migrants from Europe, Africa and elsewhere. Notice that the same approach is taken in Africa, in places like South Africa, where minority White populations reside, but have not been taken into account. The map of course, makes extrapolations in some untested areas where necessary, based on probability statistics, from the results of sections of those geographically proximate *aboriginal* populations which have actually been tested; this is why Jablonski's and Chaplin's map -- unlike Biasutti's and Brace et al.'s -- shows unconnected graded-patches of only those regions that had actually been tested across continents. Therefore, it would be a stretch to assume that the map is a 100% reflection of worldwide populations; rather, it does give a pretty damn good indication of shifts and trends in epidermal melanin content with shifts in geography and latitude.
Maps that simulate geographical skin tone distributions *solely* based on UV radiation intensity had also been prepared, particularly by Jablonski and Chaplin, and then correlated with that of tested geographical regions, to examine the linkage. By and large, the correlations *confirm* the linkage between UV radiation intensity per latitude and epidermal melanin content.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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I'm guessing that the moniker you're addressing here is but a typo; otherwise, please *specify* the argument in question.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^^^^^^^^I believe Dj is referring towards meninarmer's erroneous theory of Europeans being albinos, in the thread he(Dj) linked
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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In the meantime, something pertinent to the Ancient Greek issue...
"This was acknowledged by Homer in the Odyssey:
“In Egypt, the men are more skilled in Medicine than any of human kind”.
...The Ebers Papyrus describes the position of the heart precisely, and illustrates some of its disorders, as dropped beats. Egyptian physicians recognized the heart as the source of blood vessels. They were aware that the blood vessels were hollow, having a mouth which opens to absorb medications, eliminate waste elements, distribute air and body secretions and excretions, in a confusion between blood vessels and other passages, as ureters.
The physiology of blood circulation was demonstrated in the Edwin Smith Papyrus, together with the its relation to the heart, as well as awareness of the importance of the pulse.
“It is there that the heart speaks”, and “It is there that every physician and every priest of Sekhmet places his fingers …….… he feels something from the heart”.
They also knew that blood supply runs from the heart to all organs of the body.
“There are vessels in him for every part of the body”.
“It speaks forth in the vessels of every body part”.
However, their inability to distinguish between blood vessels, nerves, tendons and channels has limited their full understanding of the physiology of circulation.
CLINICAL EXAMINATION:
The first treatise in the book of the heart at the Ebers papyrus is entitled “Beginning of the secret of the physician”. Probably the examination of the pulse was one of the secret teachings they **refrained from passing to Greek visitors later**, and **hence has not developed in our modern medicine**.
The process of examination follows in the same steps we follow in our modern medical practice... - Courtesy Dr. Sameh, Associate Professor of Cardiology - Alexandria University.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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For the Life of me, I cannot understand why seemingly sane people would continue having discussions with this Djehuti con artist. I have busted my ass showing you all, that he is using at least seven nicks, but probably a great deal more, to win arguments by deceit, insults and browbeating. He is not an American, but a Surinam living in Amsterdam, where he is known as a plagiarist. The type of language mistakes he makes, show me as a fellow Dutch speaker, that his main language is Dutch not English. As he seems not to be able to juggle more then one abstraction at the time, he cannot synthesise complicated information and ideas. He does not know how this works and as a child he assumes that milk comes from a bottle, not a cow. Djehuti only paraphrases what he steals from others. Further more complicated with the fact that he believes his mutant brain is superior then a normal brain. The cold hatred which one perceives in his posting indicates that he might have been abandoned as a child, suffered ridicule because of his handicap, and he might have been sexually molested as a child, as well. I have noticed a certain degree of childishness in his ways of explaining things as if he is still carrying on in a nursery. This whole psychological decomposition might have started with people not responding to his threats. So he started responding by himself, using different nicks, making himself online compliments and giving himself the highest ratings. We have to assume that as a deaf-mute the internet is the best way for him to communicate with normal people. But as a true con-artist his loathing of normal people speaks from all his postings, while he preys on the good will of us all. He might be bashing you on one forum, while propagating his own concoction based on what he stole from you on another forum. The great irony is that among all you molecular biologist none of you could spot this evil mutant raising hell on this forum.
posted
Civilization is a never-ending book. Some creative person begins writing the prologue and first chapters. In the course of time, the writer passes away or loses the book. Another person picks it up, and reading through the initial chapters, finds the foundation story, enlightening or inspiring.
It sparks ideas. They continue to add chapters, given their talents, or merely sentences.
This is Civilization. It is a process. Each dominant group adds a chapter or addendum to the book.
It is collaboration.
If you are a proud member of Western Civilization, imagine that another civilization arises, and its citizens adopt the arrogant position that they owe zero debt to the dominant civilization of the recent past.
For a person from the fallen civilization it would appear as a strange position for any group of rational people to accept.
Explorateur's above post seems to indicate that the Ancient Greeks were rational people.
Posts: 96 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Greek thought that created western civ had been around for 250 years before Alexander. Aristotle was Alexander's teacher....you are reaching Doug. Where is the Persian or Egyptian Sophocles, I'll tell you where....it did not exist.
Prove the neolithic culture that you know nothing about was the foundation, give me specific examples.
The only one reaching is you. You aren't even responding to what I said.
1) The expansion of Alexander's Empire was the result of military competition between the Greeks and Persians. Persia had conquered parts of Greece and had an empire stretching to India in 500 B.C. This is where Alexander set his sights.
2) It doesn't matter what THOUGHTS the Greeks had, if Alexander HAD NOT conquered the Persians and created the Hellenistic Empire, their THOUGHTS would not have been passed DOWN to us today as MOST of those thoughts are based on works that survived OUTSIDE Greece in places like Alexandria, which would NOT have existed as Egypt was a province of Persia at the time.
And NONE of the THOUGHTS of the Greeks were DIRECTLY passed down to ANY WESTERN EUROPEAN population, except the Romans. The places were Greek thought was DIRECTLY transmitted and written down was IN THE EAST. NOBODY in Western Europe, Britain, Germany, France or Portugal was THINKING LIKE the Greeks 2000 years ago. It was only AFTER people FROM THE EAST brought Greek knowledge that had been passed down to them to THE WEST that these places became aware of it. And this was 700 years after the fact.
The only places were gr
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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You have been found out, exposed, de-masked, psycho-analysed, spat out! So give it up, you damn con-artist. Nobody believes you, nobody cares to hear your ****.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Greek thought that created western civ had been around for 250 years before Alexander. Aristotle was Alexander's teacher....you are reaching Doug. Where is the Persian or Egyptian Sophocles, I'll tell you where....it did not exist.
Prove the neolithic culture that you know nothing about was the foundation, give me specific examples.
So you are saying that all the stuff that followed and was passed down by the scholars who existed in Alexandria and elsewhere don't count? That is nonsense.
As for the idea that the Greeks invented thinking or wise speech or wisdom or politics. That is bullsh*t. They did write very deep treatises and develop ideas but they did not INVENT these concepts.
As such the The Wistom of Ptahotep (focused around the neter for thinking speech, divine and human law Ptah) is older than any Greek "philosophy".
And this is but a small sample of the actual texts on politics, philosophy, argument and speech that was created in ancient Egypt.
Not only that, but all the ancient cultures of the East had politics and some form of logic and wisdom that they practiced. Thinking rationally is a function of the human brain. It wasn't as if the Greeks invented thinking. The philosophy of the Greeks wasn't even purely rational. There was as much metaphysical discourse in ancient Greek work as any other culture. But it is true that the style of Greek discourse on some of these subjects is quite different than many others that came before. But that does NOT mean that these other ancient cultures were IRRATIONAL, had NO understanding of logic or wisdom and did not have a tradition of passing down such wisdom or wise sayings from one generation to the next. And still, the teachings of Aristotle were NOT directly transmitted to the WEST by the Greeks OR the Romans. It was actually the philosophers OF THE EAST who introduced Aristotelean logic to the West. But the Muslims had greatly added to these works through THEIR OWN scholars and it is these scholars and thinkers who influenced the Europeans as much as Aristotle's work.
Sophocles was a playwright. Plays and drama are NOT NEW at all. He didn't invent DRAMA as an allegory for human life. MANY other cultures had dramas, plays, stories and poetry about the deeds of dead kings and the intervention of the gods in the forms of plays or stories. The Tale of Sinhue is one example from Egypt. The Babylonian flood stories are another. The Greek style was very influential on the Romans but that does not make it NEW or that they INVENTED.
The persians had Mithra(Mitra) which was a IndoIranian deity. The Egyptians had Horus, Set and Osiris. All of these represented the drama of life (and death). The Greeks had the rites of Dionysus.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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Why not go and see a shrink? Your condition might be still treatable. Now you are just pitiful, keeping up this sad charade. We know you are a con-man as all of us have suffered your cold hearted hatred. Every sincere person on this forum was insulted by a Djehuti, or a JMT or a Doug M: all of them showing the same hatefull Modus Operandi. So we all know you are a very sick boy, and giving us a daily scary expose of what horrific turmoil there is inside of you. And we hate this sickness. We just want you to get well again. If I do not see any improvement I will call the LAW on you, dear.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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And again, Greek thought, especially that of the Greeks was introduced to the WEST by the Muslims. Who greatly expanded and enhanced his original work. It is from this period that modern logic began and developed in The East and made its way into "The West".
quote: Aristotelian logic
Most early Muslim logicians during the 8th and 9th centuries produced commentaries on Aristotelian logic. The first original Arabic writings on logic were produced by al-Kindi (Alkindus) (805–873), who produced a summary on earlier logic up to his time.[5]
Ibn Rushd (Averroes) (1126–1198) was the last major logician from al-Andalus, who wrote the most elaborate commentaries on Aristotelian logic. He was also the last major Aristotelian logician from the Islamic world.[5] Though his commentaries on Aristotelian logic and metaphysics had little influence in the Islamic world, his commentaries had a strong influence on medieval Europe after the Latin translations of the 12th century.
The last major logician to write a commentary on Aristotelian logic was Ibn al-Nafis (1213-1288), though he himself was not an Aristotelian logician. He wrote the Al-Wurayqat (The Little Papers), a commentary on Aristotle's Organon and Rhetoric.
Alfarabian logic
Though al-Farabi (Alfarabi) (873–950) was mainly an Aristotelian logician, he introduced a number of non-Aristotelian elements of logic. He discussed the topics of future contingents, the number and relation of the categories, the relation between logic and grammar, and non-Aristotelian forms of inference. He is credited for categorizing logic into two separate groups, the first being "idea" and the second being "proof".[5]
Al-Farabi also introduced the theories of conditional syllogism and analogical inference, which were not part of the Aristotelian tradition.[8] Another addition al-Farabi made to the Aristotelian tradition was his introduction of the concept of poetic syllogism in a commentary on Aristotle's Poetics.[9]
An example of such influence is called the period of latin translations from the 12th century. This puts into clear context the fact that only "the West" was in the dark ages and that many other cultures were moving ahead in all fields of human endeavor PRIOR to "the West" coming out of the dark ages. And it also makes it clear that "the West" never really had anything to do with the creation of the culture and civilization of Greece or even Rome and that the direct linkage of these to later cultures and civilizations in Western Europe and the Western Hemisphere is blatant NONSENSE. There was no direct connection. The dark ages of Western Europe were so because Western Europe NEVER HAD an ancient culture of civilization, democracy, math and science. And the EASTERN half of the Roman Empire was anything BUT in a dark ages, again showing that THE EAST is where the ancient civilizing forces arose that eventually led to civilization in the WEST.
Again, this shows the flow of culture and civilization went FROM the East and TO the West, not the other way around.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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Doug, There are two excellent books out there that will go a long way toward answering your questions.
1. Aristotle's Children by Richard Rubenstein
2. Sailing the Wine Dark Sea- Thomas Cahill
The cahill book deals with how the Greeks developed their civilization and how it became western civilization
The Rubenstein books deals with the transfer of Greek knowledge throughout Europe during the middle ages.
Both are excellent reads and are good places to start for anyone interested in the topic. You can pick them up on Amazon for a small amount of money.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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So go read them then. I never asked any questions so why should I? Those books REINFORCE what I have been saying. Or do you not have any comprehension of how "Western" civilization actually comes from THE EAST.
Democracy was NEVER a major form of political organization and when it was promoted it was only practiced IN NAME ONLY, as MANY PEOPLES were NOT included in practice. In fact this is the same criticism that was made DURING THE TIMES OF THE GREEKS. The most glaring criticism was that it was "mob rule" of an elite group over the masses. For most of Greece's history it was NOT democratic as seen in the Hellenistic period which followed. Likewise, for MOST of Europe's history MONARCHIES ruled the continent, led by divine "god kings", more generally following the ways of The East than any sort of democratic ideals. Again, this nonsense about democracy being some hallmark of the West is BOGUS, because it is only RECENTLY that many Western countries have become TRULY democratic as opposed to the tyrannical dictatorships, oligarchies and monarchies that existed.
And the key point is the following
quote: The cahill book deals with how the Greeks developed their civilization and how it became western civilization
BECAME Western. Understand what this means. Greeks were not WESTERN at any time in their history. They were West of Persia but they were NOT Western Europe. Their pattern of civilization and culture DID NOT reach Western Europe until 1000 years after they were gone and only in a superficial theoretical sense. Even the Muslims were not democratic, even as they studied Aristotle. I don't know how you cannot understand this. There was no DIRECT connection between ancient Greece and what we now call modern "Western" civilization.
Key point: who invented writing, paper and the printing press? NONE of that came from THE WEST and yet all three of those things are KEY elements of civilization, including "Western" civilization and THEY ALL originate in the South and East of Europe.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:You are a terribly uneducated person. Some people simply cannot be helped.
So why don't you post information of which would make a correction, why do you just rely on your disagreement as a source of truth? Why even bother coming on a board to act like you want to debate, but in actuality all you want to do is disrupt and cast doubt without any validity for your claims?
Please provide credible sourced information for anything you have a problem with. Thanks
Or perhaps you're one of those who can't learn? Perhaps just don't want to learn? Yea I think it's the latter.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Mr Patriot only has pride and ego and no facts. The books he posted are basically a reference to the beginning of translations into Latin of Arabic works as a result of the Christian conquest of Toledo, the center of Islamic culture and learning in Spain in the north.
Only a person concerned with FAKE pride and ego would sit there and ignore the fact that MOST of Europe was dominated by monarchies, tyrants, dictators and racists for MOST of its history. All this talk about democracy is bull crap. The American democracy, even though it wasn't a TRUE democracy, was UNLIKE anything that existed in Europe. On top of that, it had NO PHYSICAL connection or relationship to the Greeks. The "founding fathers" had NO direct relationship to or with the ancient Greeks. And like I said, American style democracy was UNLIKE any existing government that existed in Europe at the time..... Which means that DEMOCRACY is a relatively NEW concept in "Western" European politics.
Posts: 8901 | Registered: May 2005
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