posted
SEEKING - There are a few questions that you need to ask YOURSELF!
This is obviously a drawing; supposedly of a Tomb painting in the tomb of Seti I.
We know it MUST be a reproduction, because NOWHERE in Egyptian history did they make such CRUDE Art.
Have you, or anybody that you know, actually seen the actual painting, or even a PICTURE of the actual painting?
After you have answered these questions to yourself, and thought about it, you will have your answer.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Ironically this is one of the extremely rare occasions in which Mike is correct. Most times of course he's wrong. Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The site is basically stretching the truth. There are various depictions of Libyans or people to the West of Egypt from throughout the dynastic period. And there were various names for these various groups. The Temehu and Tehenu are the first names for the people to the West of Egypt from the old kingdom. Later on in the 18th dynasty the term Meshwesh and Rebu became more predominant. It is most likely that these people represent the result of foreign mixture with the native populations on the coast, who were probably associated with invaders like the Hyksos, who invaded Egypt. This possibility is supported by the fact that the Meshwesh were the allies of the Sea Peoples who were also foreigners from the North.
In no way does this prove that all populations to the West of Egypt were INDIGENOUS WHITE Africans who had ALWAYS been there since the beginning of time. In fact it shows that parts of Northern Africa have been impacted by foreign migrations going back at least 3000 years. And it DOES NOT prove that these people were Berbers. Berber is a language not a people. We don't know the language of the Meshwesh, but we do know that the Berber Language originates in East Africa. You can tell that such claims are bogus because they start with the 18th and 19th dynasty depictions of Libyans as "Berbers". But what about all the images and descriptions of Libyans before that? Obviously they want to make a strong connection between white skin and the origin of Berbers, which is a distortion of historical fact.
The actual image in question is quite damaged and can no longer be viewed in the tomb of Seti I.
Posts: 8893 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Indeed, what's funny is that despite their 'white' or light appearance these later Libyan peoples apparently adopted native African customs and dress as seen by the tatoos and feathered adornments. Even mainstream scholars have noted a foreign non-African presence coming in and adopting native African ways obviously from the actual natives.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ What about Niger-Congo? Songhai and Kanuri were the only Nilo-Saharan speakers the rest were Niger-Congo and of course the Zenaga and Tuareg (Tamashek) are Afrasian.
I only question your identity of the Meshwesh. Were not the Meshwesh a different people altogether described as 'white' or light-skinned by the Egyptians??
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
To study this topic, I have started with the Tuareg and gone backwards. They are the living descendants who are a combination of ALL the so-called Ancient Libyans. Everyone who is called "Tuareg" is not a Tamasheq speaker.
The Songhay language is a mix of Nilo-Saharan and Tamasheq. Their are creole languages and creole(mixed) people where two different cultures mix. The line between cultures and languages is often fuzzy.
The Woodabe and other Fulbe are culturally related to the Kel Tamasheq. They may have spoken the same language. If you look closely at Bambara-kan some words seem Berberish like "Tile" or "Tle" meaning Sun.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tamasheq has different dialects and different ways of writing Tifinar according to locations in Tamazgha. Going back 2K yrs other language groups would pronounce Tamasheq or Kel Tamasheq differently. I'm saying:
Ta MaSH eque MeSH WeSH MaXyses are all the same thing. Their are also special words for various castes within the group. People often call the group by the name of the highest caste.
As always there is much more info written in French. If you had the French, you'd have much more.
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Djehuti,
To study this topic, I have started with the Tuareg and gone backwards. They are the living descendants who are a combination of ALL the so-called Ancient Libyans. Everyone who is called "Tuareg" is not a Tamasheq speaker.
The Songhay language is a mix of Nilo-Saharan and Tamasheq. Their are creole languages and creole(mixed) people where two different cultures mix. The line between cultures and languages is often fuzzy.
The Woodabe and other Fulbe are culturally related to the Kel Tamasheq. They may have spoken the same language. If you look closely at Bambara-kan some words seem Berberish like "Tile" or "Tle" meaning Sun.
I thought 'Tuareg' referred to those nomads of the Sahara who wear indigo dyed clothes and whose men veil their faces. The Tamashek is just one 'kel' or clan but there are others. Also, I thought the Songhai was just speakers of a distant branch of Nilo-Saharan. Of course they've coexisted with Berber groups for a long time but is their language really creole?
quote: Tamasheq has different dialects and different ways of writing Tifinar according to locations in Tamazgha. Going back 2K yrs other language groups would pronounce Tamasheq or Kel Tamasheq differently. I'm saying:
Ta MaSH eque MeSH WeSH MaXyses are all the same thing. Their are also special words for various castes within the group. People often call the group by the name of the highest caste.
As always there is much more info written in French. If you had the French, you'd have much more.
This seems to be a tenuous claim to connect the Meshwesh to Tamashek. These are two entirely different people. The Tamashek live farther south in the central Sahara whereas the Meshwesh live along the North African coast and were described as a lighter or fair-skinned people. Perhaps there is a linguistic connection in that they were both Berber speakers but isn't there more evidence connecting the Tamashek to the Garamantes??
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
The word Tuareg is believed to come from Targa or Teraga which is another name for the Fezzan region of Libya. Kel Tamasheq (Tamacheque in French) means those who speak the language Tamasheq.
The ancestors of some of the Tuareg moved from the north to the south. The Kel Ajjer live in Libya today. The Kel Ahaggar live in Algeria. It was from this region Tin Hanan came from. Her descendants moved south. They encountered more Black groups and enslaved some and married/impregnated others.
The Maures of Morocco, Western Sahara and Mauretania are also some of the ancestors of the Tuareg. Don't get hung up on skin color. The Tuareg are matrilineal. Plus, slavery and the iklan class is not a rigid as it once was due to the influence of French domination after 1900.
The Songhay are divided between the Northern Songhay and Southern Songhay. Some tribal groups within the Songhay nation are considered "White" and "Free" while others are considered "Black" and slave. The southerners are morel ikely to be Black and speak more of a Nilo-Saharan language. It's complicated.
The capitol of the Garamantes was Garma which in Arabic has become Djerma. That city is in Libya.
Posts: 1115 | From: GOD Bless the USA | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian: Djehuti,
The word Tuareg is believed to come from Targa or Teraga which is another name for the Fezzan region of Libya. Kel Tamasheq (Tamacheque in French) means those who speak the language Tamasheq.
Interesting. I was under the impression 'Tuareg' comes from an Arabic pejorative meaning something like 'pagan' or 'Godless'.
quote:The ancestors of some of the Tuareg moved from the north to the south. The Kel Ajjer live in Libya today. The Kel Ahaggar live in Algeria. It was from this region Tin Hanan came from. Her descendants moved south. They encountered more Black groups and enslaved some and married/impregnated others.
Yes, I am very aware of these facts. The old moderator, Ausar is half Tuareg through his mother and has explained this before several times. The different kels (clans) are divided into castes; those in the lower castes are more prone to intermarriage but the elite castes maintain their matrilineage, with each kel claiming descent from an ancestress or matriarch. I believe Ausar's mother is Kel Ahaggar since she is from Algeria and he mentioned Tin Hanan.
quote:The Maures of Morocco, Western Sahara and Mauretania are also some of the ancestors of the Tuareg. Don't get hung up on skin color. The Tuareg are matrilineal. Plus, slavery and the iklan class is not a rigid as it once was due to the influence of French domination after 1900.
It's funny you should mention this since I stated this fact in a thread about the Moores here. The leading Berber tribe that waged jihad in West Africa and became the Moorish conquerors of Iberia--establishing the Almoravid dynasty-- were Tuareg of Kel Lamtuna. They trace descent from the matriarch Lamtuna..
quote:The Songhay are divided between the Northern Songhay and Southern Songhay. Some tribal groups within the Songhay nation are considered "White" and "Free" while others are considered "Black" and slave. The southerners are morel likely to be Black and speak more of a Nilo-Saharan language. It's complicated.
Yes. It obviously sounds like foreign influence, and a negative anti-African one at that!
quote:The capitol of the Garamantes was Garma which in Arabic has become Djerma. That city is in Libya.
Yes, I know. I heard the Tuareg are connected to the Garamantes in some way, since they preserve their indigenous Tifinagh script and the earliest form of this script comes from the Garamantes.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic