posted
The Queen of Denial Men have long vilified Cleopatra, but she's earned a royal treatment.
By Louisa Thomas | NEWSWEEK Published Oct 25, 2008
Cleopatra has always been a player in other people's dramas, if in different roles: she can be a coquette or a feminist, a martyr or a villain, a goddess or a fallen woman, even blond or black. Horace called her the fatale monstrum—the fatal monster. Chaucer made her virtuous. Shakespeare turned her into a romantic heroine. In her own day, legions of Egyptians thought she was the reincarnation of the goddess Isis, while her nemesis, the Roman Octavian, called her a whore. It is that description—Cleopatra as a vamp, a seductress whose machinations led to the downfall of Julius Caesar and Marc Antony—that dominates the countless depictions in art, literature, theater, film and, not least, history books.
It is hard to know just who she was. When she died in 30 B.C., she left no writings behind, and much of her city, Alexandria, now lies beneath the Mediterranean and a sea of modern buildings. But the shards of evidence the Egyptologist Joyce Tyldesley pieces together in her engaging new biography, "Cleopatra: The Last Queen of Egypt," reveal why it is so easy, and so tempting, to misconstrue her story. Her death marked the end of ancient Egypt and the birth of the Roman Empire. For her, sex really was politics: her two most important political allies, Antony and Caesar, were also her lovers. Their deaths made it possible for her enemies to turn her legend into a cautionary tale about the unfitness and danger of having women as leaders. In the year of Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin, untangling the legend of Cleopatra has special urgency.
Cleopatra was, of course, more than a mistress; she was a queen—an ambitious and ruthless one. When her brother—who was also her co-ruler and probably her husband, in an arrangement typical among Egyptian monarchs—moved against her, she had him killed. She liked to throw decadent feasts to impress visiting dignitaries. With her lover and ally Antony at her side, she was a major player in Rome's civil war. Soon after Antony's suicide, following a devastating defeat to Octavian at the Battle of Actium, she died too, killing herself, according to the official story, by the bite of an asp.
The official story—Octavian's version, promoted in speeches, rumors, pamphlets and the deft use of symbols—says that Cleopatra corrupted the innocent Caesar and Antony in order to ruin Rome and advance herself. (This is not so different from the depiction in the HBO series "Rome"—Cleopatra, a druggy strumpet, offers herself as Caesar's "slave," while secretly conniving for control.) The archeological record is thin, but it suggests something else: that Cleopatra was a competent ruler in difficult times, dealing with internal unrest and unstable neighbors.
Tyldesley wants to "put Cleopatra back into her own, predominantly Egyptian context"—to see her as a ruler of Egypt, not as a consort of Romans. In this view, sex was one of the few tools available to women, and her use of it was "sensible," not "weak." In fact, Tyldesley writes that Cleopatra "probably had no more than two, consecutive relationships."
Octavian was heavily invested in portraying Cleopatra as a harlot. Antony was his former ally; a power struggle tore them apart. Cleopatra, as a female and a foreigner, was a more obvious enemy. She became a scapegoat—dark to Rome's pure light, woman to Rome's man, a monarch to Rome's republic. Cicero met her at Caesar's house and found her intelligent but arrogant. "I hate the queen!" he wrote. The historian Plutarch, whose vivid and fascinating "Lives" continues to shape popular perceptions of antiquity, lived a century later, but he hated her too. His Cleopatra is devious and immoral. In one typically dramatic but probably fantastic scene in Plutarch's telling, Cleopatra had herself smuggled into Caesar's presence for the first time in a bundle of bedsheets. Later depictions—including the 1963 Elizabeth Taylor version—have her falling to his feet, tousled and sexy, as he unrolls an anachronistic Persian rug.
These portrayals of Cleopatra tell more about their own times than about the Egyptian queen herself (though she probably did have a flair for the dramatic). She has become a kind of Rorschach test. Renaissance painters depicted her as their pale blond vision of beauty, but in the 19th century, an era of imperialism, she was dark and exotic. Romantics loved the femme fatale Cleopatra, while early cinematic portrayals appealed to both men and women by making her smart and funny and scantily clad. Many scholars today fixate on Cleopatra's looks (her profile, seen on coins, features a huge nose) and skin color (the Ptolemies were from a Macedonian line, but Cleopatra's maternal ancestry and the race of her paternal grandmother are disputed). As Tyldesley points out, these squabbles are largely about society's obsession with beauty and race. To regard Cleopatra as an Egyptian ruler instead of a male myth, and to assess her using scholarly and archeological tools, is a worthy goal. It seems long overdue.
posted
^ Indeed, although she was still a great ruler in the sense that she did what she did to protect Egypt. But overall this issue has discussed too many times and yes she is overrated especially for a ruler is not ethnically Egyptian! I'd like to hear more about Ahmose Nefertari or Sebeknefru or Ahhotep,-- those great indigenous Egyptian queens we never hear about!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Indeed, although she was still a great ruler in the sense that she did what she did to protect Egypt. But overall this issue has discussed too many times and yes she is overrated especially for a ruler is not ethnically Egyptian! I'd like to hear more about Ahmose Nefertari or Sebeknefru or Ahhotep,-- those great indigenous Egyptian queens we never hear about!
Exactly, Compare Cleopatra to Hetshepsut or any of Egyts many indiginous queens. Cleopatra is famous becuase she managed to seduce two Roman generals.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Ironic that this queen of European descent is famous for seducing war generals, yet we never hear about queens of actual Egyptian (African) descent who were famous in their own times for fighting as war generals themselves in their own right such as Ahhotep or Ahmose Nefertari!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Cleopatra was not the end of Egypt. She was not Egyptian she was Greek and part of the Hellenistic world of the GREEK EMPIRE. Calling herself Egyptian did not change the fact that she was part of the GREEK empire, not the Egyptian empire. That is historically false. Dynastic Egypt ended with the conquest of the Persians.
That is the point. The Ptolemaic dynasty was not Egyptian they were Greek and ruled Egypt FOR GREEKS and BY GREEKS. So it isn't really like the Ptolemaic dynasty represented ANCIENT EGYPT. It does not. It represents GREEK usurpation of Egyptian culture and identity.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ You are correct. Ironically Cleopatra was the only Ptolemy who not only bothered to learn the Egyptian langauge but also practiced Egyptian religion unlike the other members of her family.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of course Cleopatra was Egyptian. Her family had ruled for three centuries. In America that would take us back to the salem Witch trials in the 1690's. Considering the political situation of the time she did a good time. Not too many leaders beat the Romans during that time.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Of course she was Egyptian by nationality but just not ethnically. This would be like saying the Puritans of Salem were as American as the indigenous tribes whom they displaced, or an even better example the white Afrikaaners who were also colonial rulers of South Africa were as South African as the Bantu and Khoisan indigenees.
The point Doug made was that the Ptolemies were colonial rulers, whose rule was obviously not accepted fully by the native people. They did not even fluently speak the Egyptian language save Cleopatara herself.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Djehuti and Doug M are the same person. Djehuti of Amsterdam, not Atlanta, Georgia uses about twenty nicks at this forum, at the same time.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
well she was caucasian and since Egyptians were north african caucasians she was close enough ethnically. The Ptolemies may have started out as colonial rulers but 300 years is a long time.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:"Interestingly, the Egyptian series was less similar to a Palestinian series than to a **West African** one...... Overall, when the Egyptian crania are evaluated in a Near Eastern versus African context, the affinity is with the Africans"
Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships, S.O.Y. Keita, History in Africa, 20: 129-154 (1993)
^Gee, I wonder if they had a European series.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck. But Gee. I wonder why it is that 'North African Caucasian' royalty "look" like 'black Africans' more than they look like Palestinians? Beats me. But you know what they say: looks can be deceiving
I find 'North African Caucasians' phenomenally interesting, in all seriousness (i.e., Africans).
Like these finds for instance.
All this happened, 2,000-5,000 years ago, and yet many Westerners liveing in 'Western civil*I*zation' still lack the ability to think. Phenomenal, indeed.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
all of those guys look like Syrians Alive. You are defeating your own argument posting those pictures.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Black skinned Syrians? Afros and all like the guy in one of those photos?? Bwahahahaha! No Syrians ruled Egypt buddy. You just talk nothing but ****.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ LMAO The 'prof' again makes his claim of North African 'cacazoids' and when he is shown authentic depictions the Egyptians made of themselves-- black people, he then says they look no different from "Syrians"! LOL Indeed, Hore definitely is the king of DENIAL!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
[img]^ Ironic that this queen of European descent is famous for seducing war generals, yet we never hear about queens of actual Egyptian (African) descent who were famous in their own times for fighting as war generals themselves in their own right such as Ahhotep or Ahmose Nefertari![/quote]
Are you saying Egyptian queens actually fought in battle as generals? Where'd you read about that?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's an African thang. Many African queens did so also. Read about The Ashanti Queen Yaa Asantewa who fought the last Ashanti war against the British, or Nandi, Queen of Zululand, or the great Queen Amina of Zaria known for her military exploits, and said to have been a great military strategist.
I've left out quite a few. There are many many more.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Yes, although I don't have any sources at the moment there is strong evidence which suggests the chief wife of the pharaoh has the power to assist her husband (preferably after she has provided an heir to the throne) or son in military campaigns.
The two primary examples I know of was Aahotep I, last queen of the 17th dynasty, and her daughter Ahmose-Nefertari, founding queen of the 18th dynasty. Aahotep I assisted her husband Sekenenra Tao in his war against the Hyksos by leading battles against opposing rival factions in Thebes while Sekenenra fought against the Hyksos in Lower Egypt. When Sekenenra was killed, his stepsons Kamose and Ahmose I took over the campaign and with Kamose's passing, Ahmose I was assisted by his half-sister (Sekenenra's daughter) and wife Ahmose-Nefertari. I don't know about Ahmose-Nefertari, but I know that when the tomb of Aahotep I was excavated, archaeologists found a necklace of golden flies which signified exemplary honor and valor in military duty-- kind of like the Purple Heart in the U.S. military.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Come now King, who do you think you are addressing?! This is 'professor' Hore you are talking about! Of course the guy is suffering from a severe case of denial.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by KING: I can't believe after seeing all those pics, you have the nerve to say those Egyptians looked like Syrians.
Apparently Syrians look like black Africans. They're all the same to that Texan guy. "all you n*s - and sand n*s- are alike!" - 'Professor'.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hate it when you name call at Sudanese Arabs but love it when your studies uncover jems like this!
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes, although I don't have any sources at the moment there is strong evidence which suggests the chief wife of the pharaoh has the power to assist her husband (preferably after she has provided an heir to the throne) or son in military campaigns.
The two primary examples I know of was Aahotep I, last queen of the 17th dynasty, and her daughter Ahmose-Nefertari, founding queen of the 18th dynasty. Aahotep I assisted her husband Sekenenra Tao in his war against the Hyksos by leading battles against opposing rival factions in Thebes while Sekenenra fought against the Hyksos in Lower Egypt. When Sekenenra was killed, his stepsons Kamose and Ahmose I took over the campaign and with Kamose's passing, Ahmose I was assisted by his half-sister (Sekenenra's daughter) and wife Ahmose-Nefertari. I don't know about Ahmose-Nefertari, but I know that when the tomb of Aahotep I was excavated, archaeologists found a necklace of golden flies which signified exemplary honor and valor in military duty-- kind of like the Purple Heart in the U.S. military.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Old Ho is yanking chains and proving once again how easy it is to get you chasing white ghosts and off the topic thus impacting your progress not his as he sits back and laughs at the dupes all the while he knows full well the obvious racial affinities of indigenous Nile Valley folk.
Good job Ho, keep 'em spinning their wheels and going nowhere except rehashing the same old same old.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Alive, A good pair of glasses would help you. These people are north African caucasians. Did you note the jewish hook nonse on Hatchepsut last night. These pictures you are posting look like Syrians/arabs, nothing like black africans.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
People should be asking themselves why a person like Hammer chooses to hang out on a site where he's never contributed anything and doesn't believe in anything posted here. My thoughts are he's here to compile conversation pieces for his main site where he does contribute, Stormfront. He also has a few alias here who posts off the wall distraction threads.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
What are real black Africans in East Africa supposed to look like AmericanPatriot? Just answer that.
Posts: 603 | From: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ LOL Don't expect any answers, let alone valid ones, to questions you ask him. Takruri is right, the guy knows the Egyptians were black but chooses to deny, for it harms his white supremacist fantasies.
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Alive, A good pair of glasses would help you. These people are north African caucasians. Did you note the jewish hook nose on Hatchepsut last night. These pictures you are posting look like Syrians/arabs, nothing like black africans.
Hmm.. 'Jewish hook nose on Hatshepsut last night'.. Where was this? Some drunken early Halloween party you had? LOL Well, that is one more Jewish person you saw than poor Jew-frightened Assoben has seen in real life! LMAOPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Does anyone want to say something that hasn't been said about Cleopatra (Sure wish we had the search engine)??..
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Alive ... These people are north African caucasians. Did you note the jewish hook nonse on Hatchepsut last night.
Sure.
quote:These pictures you are posting look like Syrians/arabs, nothing like black africans.
Right.
I think I see it now:
quote:Originally posted by the Original Gangstuh: RamsesII holding some prisoners of varying ethnicities Picture showing racial differences
Thanks for the 411, prof. Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Djehuti, The secrets of Queen Hatchepsut was shown on the History channel. The Queen is obviously north african caucasian, closely related to the syrians/Jews in the near east. Ramses II had a nose so hooked he looks like shinebein the Jewish cobbler. These people have nothing to do with African negroids.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Can anyone find that old thread on Cleopatra? It would be a good idea to link to what was already talked about..
Some good stuff was posted in the thread started by Evergreen, and the other thread started (i think) by AlexandertheGrea.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: Djehuti, The secrets of Queen Hatchepsut was shown on the History channel. The Queen is obviously north african caucasian, closely related to the syrians/Jews in the near east. Ramses II had a nose so hooked he looks like shinebein the Jewish cobbler. These people have nothing to do with African negroids.
^ Define an "African negroid" if you can please. We're waiting.
Posts: 426 | From: Cali-for-nia | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not going to play that game Mmmkay, you know full well what an african negroid is.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: I'm not going to play that game Mmmkay, you know full well what an african negroid is.
This is the continuous ignorant racialist thinking of the likes of ol Carleton Coon
The Story of Man
Carleton Coon
p 196-197
Borzoi Books, 1965
quote: Few skeletons have been found in the Sahara, and these are hard to date because of soil erosion. In Arabia prehistoric archaeology has barely been started. Yet we can be reasonably confident, until other evidence upsets the theory, that these deserts were the home of the slender variety of Caucasoid man. In East Africa this type has survived among the slender, narrow-faced Watusi and other cattle people.
Tutsis have ~80% E3a according to published data. Can you explain why you still adhere to Coon? Can you explain his idiocy from his above quote, which your posts also obviously stem from?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ LOL Indeed, the professor has no clue what the racial designations he uses such as "caucasoid" really entail. Many black Africans would be considered "caucasoid" by debunked racial anthropology.
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Djehuti, The secrets of Queen Hatchepsut was shown on the History channel. The Queen is obviously north african caucasian, closely related to the syrians/Jews in the near east...
Really? But aren't Syrians/Jews part of Southwest Asia or do you consider them North Africans as well??
What about these depictions of Hatshepsut??
^ Nope. I don't see any 'hooked' nose or any Jewish or 'Syrian' look. On the contrary, her straight nose, small full lips, and complexion makes her look like an Ethiopian or better yet like rural Fellahin of modern Upper Egypt than any Asiatic.
quote:Ramses II had a nose so hooked he looks like shinebein the Jewish cobbler. These people have nothing to do with African negroids.
Alive-(What Box), just showed you an picture from a mural of Ramses that makes a striking distinction between him and the actual Syrian captive he holds. No hooked nose and he has a much darker complexion. These people were definitely Africans, and forget the racial garbage category of "negroid" just like "caucasoid".
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: Djehuti, The secrets of Queen Hatchepsut was shown on the History channel. The Queen is obviously north african caucasian, closely related to the syrians/Jews in the near east. Ramses II had a nose so hooked he looks like shinebein the Jewish cobbler. These people have nothing to do with African negroids.
^ Define an "African negroid" if you can please. We're waiting.
He can't: he's most likely a drop out.
Rather than ever engaging in discourse with Ho in hopes of getting anything out of him, it's best to use his (often intentionally?) inane commentary to educate by exposing such rhetoric to be extremely foolish. Otherwise, in the case that you're just opposed to what Ho is doing (he's an agent provacateur) it's just best to ignore him as alTakruri suggested.
I just tried to rattle/irritate him but man that guy is a stone cold professional at wat he do. By the look of his responses I think he knew what I was up to.
posted
Djehuti, none of those statues of Hatchepsut look african at all, her mummy even less so. She looks like the north african caucasians found all arond that part of the Med.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
But Hammer, those African caucasians are actually not "whites" as you think of the description, but rather they are Africans suffering from, Albinism.
Here's a whole family of Albinos descended from black Africans. As can be seen from this photo, Albinos did interbreed and often propagated the Albino (You call it "white") species.
It occurred when mutations like this one progressed.
After centuries of interbreeding with one another they began to breed with these people;
and became this;
Hey, guess what 1800s white historians used to label African Albinos? Yep, White Negroes, or White Africans.
Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ This coming from the guy who says Hatshepsut looked 'Syrian' or 'Jewish'! LMAO
And exactly which photos do you speak of? Knowing you, you are probably referring to the ones of Hatshepsut's sculptures! LOLPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Sorry but I'm no robot and there is nothing artificial about my intelligence. But I can't say the same for you!
quote:Minibrainer wrote: But Hammer, those African caucasians are actually not "whites" as you think of the description, but rather they are Africans suffering from, Albinism.
Here's a whole family of Albinos descended from black Africans. As can be seen from this photo, Albinos did interbreed and often propagated the Albino (You call it "white") species.
It occurred when mutations like this one progressed.
After centuries of interbreeding with one another they began to breed with these people;
and became this;
Hey, guess what 1800s white historians used to label African Albinos? Yep, White Negroes, or White Africans.
^ ROTFLOL at the psuedo-scientific nonsense above! It's actually so stupid it doesn't deserve to have the word 'scientific' as part of its description!
And it is a disingenuous lie at that. Notice your first picture is of a family of European albinos...
Yet as we all know (including you), like all other populations albinism is quite rare even among Europeans.
Here is a family of Europeans who like the majority of humans populations are not albino.
It's funny. Both you and 'AmericanPatriot' have a lot in common. You're both queens of DENIAL and for the same reasons-- racist prejudice. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Where'd you read about that?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
They're all the same to that Texan guy. "all you n*s - and sand n*s- are alike!" - 'Professor'.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic