posted
I just ordered 'The African Presence in Early Asia' and am surprised at how influential Black people were in the beginning days of Islam. I've always been intrigued by Islamic history because of the Moors and the Malian Empire. But reading through a preview of the above book has turned me on to this subject even more than I was before.
Maybe some here can answer some questions for me though. I don't know much about the Prophet Muhammad (grew up a Baptist Christian) so...
1. How accepted is it that he was half Black?
2. How is the Abbasid Dynasty generally regarded? Arabic or Black? The reason I ask is because according to the above book, in a section written by Chandler, the founder of the Abbasid Dynasty was Muhammads youngest uncle named Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (I guess from his Black fathers side?...which would have made him Black too?).
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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The African presence in early Asia covers the regions from Arabia all the way to the Philippines and China. And this is the same region where Islam spread in the early times. The book itself documents blacks in all of these places, not simply as muslims, but as the aboriginal types. This includes black populations in Arabia.
Islam spread to many places that had blacks. From Arabia to Northern Africa and the Sahara, to Persia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, from India to the Philippines all were places were blacks were a large part of the population and hence a large part of early Islam. But a lot of early Islam also was in places in central Asia and elsewhere that had large non black populations as well. The main problem is that a lot of the iconography from early Islam is typically white washed, with all the key figures and their entourages are white. This is especially true of the images from India and Asia, which are obviously inaccurate, as most Indians are not pure white to begin with (just as many more recent Hindu images from India are UNLIKE the vast majority of the Indian population). Unfortunately this only serves to omit and diminish the roles of blacks in Asia and Islam in many peoples minds. Another thing that should be understood also is that many Islamic documents written by non blacks are overtly racist, which again only serves to minimize and diminish the roles of blacks within Islam.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:1. How accepted is it that he was half Black?
not accepted in the field of islamic scholarship at all.
quote:2. How is the Abbasid Dynasty generally regarded? Arabic or Black?
it is regarded as abbasid hence the name and they had multiple physical representations. some black some white some brown
quote:The reason I ask is because according to the above book, in a section written by Chandler, the founder of the Abbasid Dynasty was Muhammad's youngest uncle named Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (I guess from his Black fathers side?...which would have made him Black too?).
no, because he was never identified as such. his eye-witnesses considered him light-skinned in the community. the arabs considered themselves a dark-skinned nation as compared to their white-skinned roman and persian neighbors however they considered themselves a multi-colored nation as compared to the african based nations. according to arab skin-color terminology he would not be considered black. in the peninsula arabic culture, skin color was a description and not a ethnic i.d. they called african foriegners habashi because of a look and not because of a ethnic description.
you have to specify your definition of black because different people have their own views of what is and what is not black. there are pale-skinned russians considered blacks by their standards. some dark-skinned africans do not consider themselves black because of their circumstance and standard.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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it is the same thing as the american term white in which alot of ruddy looking berbers do not consider themselves white even though it is hard to tell the difference between them and euro's in europe. I have met some who even look down on the complexion of the french.
quote:which again only serves to minimize and diminish the roles of blacks within Islam.
how would that be possible for a non-black to do when there are too many accounts of blacks in the first generation of muslims. 100 times more than what al-jahiz covered in his treatise(superiority of the blacks over the whites). i think what alot of people, even arabs fail to realize is that the vast majority of the arab scholars were arabized and not representative or descended from the arab tribes just like every american is not a descendant of anglo-saxon stock. the black nations were looked at as either being muslim or non-muslim. teh black nations whose populations were muslims like borno,kano,mali,songhay,takrur were considered blacks as a national description but were obligated muslim nationals. the black nations who were non-muslim were not even considered with names; only the muslim black nations were recognized. the exception to that is the nubians who were christian just like the slavic nations who were christian. the rest of the pagan whites where not even considered.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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islamic history would not be considered black history because islam does not share power with any non-islamic group. islam came to subdue groups hence forth the name islam(submission). in islam we have arabs, african ethnic groups, euro ethnic groups, asiatic ethnic groups and the vast ethnic groups of the americas. All of these groups are in the same nation and all are subjects to the rule of islaam and their king is the lord of the heavens and the earth who gives them protection against their enemies. Islam is its own thing and will never share power or a seat with those who refuses to submit to their king.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:1. How accepted is it that he was half Black?
not accepted in the field of islamic scholarship at all.
quote:2. How is the Abbasid Dynasty generally regarded? Arabic or Black?
it is regarded as abbasid hence the name and they had multiple physical representations. some black some white some brown
quote:The reason I ask is because according to the above book, in a section written by Chandler, the founder of the Abbasid Dynasty was Muhammad's youngest uncle named Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (I guess from his Black fathers side?...which would have made him Black too?).
no, because he was never identified as such. his eye-witnesses considered him light-skinned in the community. the arabs considered themselves a dark-skinned nation as compared to their white-skinned roman and persian neighbors however they considered themselves a multi-colored nation as compared to the african based nations. according to arab skin-color terminology he would not be considered black. in the peninsula arabic culture, skin color was a description and not a ethnic i.d. they called african foriegners habashi because of a look and not because of a ethnic description.
you have to specify your definition of black because different people have their own views of what is and what is not black. there are pale-skinned russians considered blacks by their standards. some dark-skinned africans do not consider themselves black because of their circumstance and standard. [/q]
Can you elaborate?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: [Q] it is the same thing as the american term white in which alot of ruddy looking berbers do not consider themselves white even though it is hard to tell the difference between them and euro's in europe. I have met some who even look down on the complexion of the french.
quote:which again only serves to minimize and diminish the roles of blacks within Islam.
how would that be possible for a non-black to do when there are too many accounts of blacks in the first generation of muslims. 100 times more than what al-jahiz covered in his treatise(superiority of the blacks over the whites). i think what alot of people, even arabs fail to realize is that the vast majority of the arab scholars were arabized and not representative or descended from the arab tribes just like every american is not a descendant of anglo-saxon stock. the black nations were looked at as either being muslim or non-muslim. teh black nations whose populations were muslims like borno,kano,mali,songhay,takrur were considered blacks as a national description but were obligated muslim nationals. the black nations who were non-muslim were not even considered with names; only the muslim black nations were recognized. the exception to that is the nubians who were christian just like the slavic nations who were christian. the rest of the pagan whites where not even considered. [/Q]
See that's what I want to uncover. Vincent Cornell @ Emory University sent me a copy of his translation of al-Jahiz'z treatise...but it wasn't a full copy (probably due to copyright laws) of his book, it was missing every other page. I know Blacks were very influential during that period though.
I define Black as simply having a really dark complexion. Darker than the tan complexion of some Arabs and modern-day Berbers for instance.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: islamic history would not be considered black history because islam does not share power with any non-islamic group. islam came to subdue groups hence forth the name islam(submission). in islam we have arabs, african ethnic groups, euro ethnic groups, asiatic ethnic groups and the vast ethnic groups of the americas. All of these groups are in the same nation and all are subjects to the rule of islaam and their king is the lord of the heavens and the earth who gives them protection against their enemies. Islam is its own thing and will never share power or a seat with those who refuses to submit to their king.
I guess I see your point. I wasn't trying to say it's ONLY Black history though. Just that Blacks were pivotal in its creation and not just there as slaves to Arabs as many historians only tell one side of the story.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
One black influetial figure I know of in Islam is Bilal ibn Rabah, a former slave from Ethiopia and companion of Muhammad. It was Bilal who became the first muezzin-- person who makes the adhan (call to prayer). In fact even today when muezzin make the adhan they try to do so in an Ethiopian accent.
But all in all, any black influence or prominence in Islam is not surprising since Arabia is right next to Africa with some blacks who are native to Arabia anyway.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: islamic history would not be considered black history because islam does not share power with any non-islamic group.
quote:they called african foriegners habashi because of a look and not because of a ethnic description
in the time of muhammad ibn abdullah and before him the most prominent tribe of the peninsula (al-quraish) and also some hijazi tribes were fond of buying slave girls from the habesh(axum). This is the arugument that you hear from modern ethiopians, in which some call themselves today habesh, say that they were not enslaved but that they took people from other than them. you can find similiarities with this in al-jahiz's treatise in the voice of the zanj who talk of how they sell other than their nation. in sequence, the arabs, not being social-anthropologist, named anything coming via habesh-yemen habeshi even though there is no known modern nation with that name. so it became an ethnic designation for non-arab africans. look at this: sahih albukhari-fighting and marching- darq(particular dance) ".....on the day of eid(religious holiday) there were the sudan playing with the darq and war spears." Now in the same hadeeth with the same narrator you have the saying "...there were habeshplaying with spears(during the festivals). This is the proof that during the time of muhammad alahi salaam, habesh was a designation for dark-skinned non-arabs even though there were other known dark-skinned nations like suninke(ghana),mandinka(mali),sunghay ,nuba, zaghawa, and . These names did not appear in arab vocabulary until they ventured out of their peninsula and saw the rest of the world. Another point to take into consideration is the fact that references in the hadeeths to people called black man or black woman are not necessarily references to continental africans. if you read dhahabi's seerul al-'alaam he breaks down the what hijaazi arabs of muhammad's time alahi salaam used as describing people's skin color. anybody who was reddish pinkish to orangish tan were called reds and people who were of a wheatish color (what egyyptians call 'amhi' were called white and people who were of the indians color were called asmar or adama and people who of the takruri color were called black and he further explained that anybody who was overall(meaning hair,eye,skin) of a dark color regardless of the tint,complexion,reflexion of the sun light hitting the surface at 12:00,etc(as long as there were no redness or whiteness) was labeled as being black hence the saying of muhammad alhai salaam "I came to every black and every red" imaam dhahabi explained that this is how the original color coordination was ( you were either dark skinned or light skinned) and nobody escaped this nomenclature. This was the same argument of aljahiz when he said that allah had sent the religion to the sudani nations because the arabs were considered from the sudan because their color is more closer to the nations of the sudan than it is to the bedhani nations(whites) persians,romans,saqalibah,etc
I'll give you a modern scenario of name nomenclature for skin color with the modern arabs since they are different. alot of arabs use the word zinj to describe arabs who are very dark-skinned even though they are not from zanjibar and have nothing to do with that nation and its groups. They also use it to refer to africans and anybody who descends from africans regardless of skin color. ex. they call AA's zanooj-ul-amerikeyeen meaning black americans even though AA's [u]as a group[/u]have nothing to do with the nations of the real zanj area but are referred as such because they refer to themselves as african-american or simply black.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:no, because he was never identified as such. his eye-witnesses considered him light-skinned in the community. the arabs considered themselves a dark-skinned nation as compared to their white-skinned roman and persian neighbors however they considered themselves a multi-colored nation as compared to the african based nations. according to arab skin-color terminology he would not be considered black. in the peninsula arabic culture, skin color was a description and not a ethnic i.d. they called african foriegners habashi because of a look and not because of a ethnic description.
you have to specify your definition of black because different people have their own views of what is and what is not black. there are pale-skinned russians considered blacks by their standards. some dark-skinned africans do not consider themselves black because of their circumstance and standard. [/q] Can you elaborate?
the arabs consider themselves dark skin the messenger aof allah alahi salaam said "..they are from our skin(color) and they speak our language" sahih bukhari-book of trials-the matter involving no unity amongst the muslim nation
the messenger alahi salaam by contrast of his companions who were over whelmingly arab and who were those who described him said that he was light skinned(yellowish) mixed with some reddish( light brown) and not dark skinned. some reports confirm that he was seen as light brown because of exposure to the sun.
therfore within the nation of the arabs whose skin colors ranged from deep-black like the wolof to the brownish levels like alot of nations to the yellowish light skin will have their own terminology color contrast. so eventhough as compared overall he, muhammad alahi salaam, being yellow in complexion when not exposed to sun is considered dark to the bedhaan nations, he is considered white within the arab nation. Just like they called the deep-black skinned poetic/knightly/chivalrous arabs the arab crows or arab ravens because of their skin color and courage. they called arabs that looked like the slaves they got from syrian christians and romans red. they called arabs with muhammad's color alahi salaam "the red clay" so this is why he would not be considered black. because he is described by members of his nation as tannish white or red clayish like as an individual the same as a light skinned AA describing himself as light in color but considering himself black because of the nomenclature of the nation or an igbo-national calling himself ochocha which literally means white or mauretanian maqali arabs in which the lightest they appear is yellowish ex.Here lies a picture of two arabs one is a red syrian(white)(rajul ahmr)and the other is a mauritani bidhani(white mauritanian)even though he himself, in complexion, is azhar-light skinned with yellowish complexion appearing dark
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:One black influential figure I know of in Islam is Bilal ibn Rabah,
It is said his patronymic name is abu abdullah some say abu abdulkareem some say abu abdurahman and some so say abu 'amr. he is also attributed to his mother's lineage bilal ibn hamamat. hamamat, his mother was an offspring of a quraishi from the tribe of jamha in mekka and slave mother from habesha.
quote:a former slave from Ethiopia and companion of Muhammad.
ibn ishaaq write that bilal was freed by abu bakr(1st caliph)after seeing him be tortured by his masters. he said that bilal was bought from the tribe of banu jamh of makkah and that he was the result of their offspring and their slave girls like the story of antar. some say he was mixed from mekka. ibn asakir said he was mixed from the market places between the shaam and madina. some say he is from a place in yemen
quote:It was Bilal who became the first muezzin-- person who makes the adhan (call to prayer).
he was also a treasurer for the prophet alahi salaam
quote:In fact even today when muezzin make the adhan they try to do so in an Ethiopian accent.
thats interesting seeing that bilal would have spoken arabic in a quraishi dialect because he would have been raised amongst those tribes.
quote:But all in all, any black influence or prominence in Islam is not surprising since Arabia is right next to Africa with some blacks who are native to Arabia anyway
there is not only the continent of africa through the strait called bab-ul-mandeb but there is the bab-ul-hormuz facing asia in which the area of ceylon and sri lanka is open for immigrants. there has been greek security guards stationed in a place called jabl-ul-malik i think and there were roman soldiers stationed somewere. in the bahrain area there is the presence of persians, even to this day there are blue-eyed bahrainis.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:One black influential figure I know of in Islam is Bilal ibn Rabah,
It is said his patronymic name is abu abdullah some say abu abdulkareem some say abu abdurahman and some so say abu 'amr. he is also attributed to his mother's lineage bilal ibn hamamat. hamamat, his mother was an offspring of a quraishi from the tribe of jamha in mekka and slave mother from habesha.
quote:a former slave from Ethiopia and companion of Muhammad.
ibn ishaaq write that bilal was freed by abu bakr(1st caliph)after seeing him be tortured by his masters. he said that bilal was bought from the tribe of banu jamh of makkah and that he was the result of their offspring and their slave girls like the story of antar. some say he was mixed from mekka. ibn asakir said he was mixed from the market places between the shaam and madina. some say he is from a place in yemen
quote:It was Bilal who became the first muezzin-- person who makes the adhan (call to prayer).
he was also a treasurer for the prophet alahi salaam
quote:In fact even today when muezzin make the adhan they try to do so in an Ethiopian accent.
thats interesting seeing that bilal would have spoken arabic in a quraishi dialect because he would have been raised amongst those tribes.
quote:But all in all, any black influence or prominence in Islam is not surprising since Arabia is right next to Africa with some blacks who are native to Arabia anyway
there is not only the continent of africa through the strait called bab-ul-mandeb but there is the bab-ul-hormuz facing asia in which the area of ceylon and sri lanka is open for immigrants. there has been greek security guards stationed in a place called jabl-ul-malik i think and there were roman soldiers stationed somewere. in the bahrain area there is the presence of persians, even to this day there are blue-eyed bahrainis.
What confuses me is that Arabs supposedly were racist to blacks to the point that Al-Jahiz had to write the "Glory of the Blacks over the Whites" to show how much blacks contirbuted to Islam. If the Arabs were racist ...why? I mean there was culture in Africa such as Ghana, Ethiopia, Egypt and so on...Plus many black Armies helped to spread Islam and a Black Nation protected the prophet. However I think the "racism" was aimed mainly at the Zanj or Eastern Blacks and Blacks south of the Civilized black Islamic kingdoms.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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^ A primary reason for Arab racism against blacks was the exact same for Europeans, and that was imperialism with the Arab colonization of Africa and what not. Islam was a second reason in that Arabs began to use their religion to boast their supremacy. Ironically, the prophet Muhammad even warned all Muslims of this-- that his people would use their ethnicity to boast Islamic superiority.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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But what is an Arab? Being Arab is a very ambiguous term and historically many of the greatest leaders of the Islamic world, outside of the Quran were not Arabs. Some of the most historic Islamic ruling figures of Egypt were either European or Turkish. Saladdin was Kurdish. The Ottomans were Turkish and so forth and so on. Yes there is an idea of Arab supremacy in Islam, but much of that is in name only because people can call themselves Arab and not be Arab, hence the issues of the "Arab" conflict in Sudan.
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I've never heard a Turk call him/herself Arab. An Arab directed basic hatred exists toward Turks. http://www.jstor.org/pss/162959 This bias exists among many former Ottoman subjects. I.e. Albanians say: "Where a horse of a Turk passes the grass will not grow again."
Muslim does not equal Arab.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Djehuti wrote: ------------------------------ A primary reason for Arab racism against blacks was the exact same for Europeans, and that was imperialism with the Arab colonization of Africa and what not. ------------------------------
What kind of nonsense is this? List all of the countries that "Arabs" colonized and explain the corolation with "blacks" and those countries.
Apparently you must have confused Africa with the Phillopeenes. Africa ain't the Phillopeenes, that island has been conquered and ruled by blacks, whites, Arabs, and even other Asians such as the Chinese and Japanese.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I've never heard a Turk call him/herself Arab. An Arab directed basic hatred exists toward Turks. http://www.jstor.org/pss/162959 This bias exists among many former Ottoman subjects. I.e. Albanians say: "Where a horse of a Turk passes the grass will not grow again."
Muslim does not equal Arab.
You are absolutely right, but many people outside of these areas often make broad generalizations about what or who is an Arab, especially in the context of the broader history of the spread of Islam.
Posts: 8891 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Argay-likes it up the ass wrote: What kind of nonsense is this? List all of the countries that "Arabs" colonized and explain the corolation with "blacks" and those countries.
We're waiting.
Arabs colonized many countries in North Africa from Egypt to the Maghreb, you moron. Or do you not know that basic fact of African or world history. Of course not, because all you know is b.s. and of course what goes up your anus.
quote:Apparently you must have confused Africa with the Phillopeenes. Africa ain't the Phillopeenes, that island has been conquered and ruled by blacks, whites, Arabs, and even other Asians such as the Chinese and Japanese.
LOL The Philippines is not one island but thousands of islands, and how was its conquest and rule by white Europeans make it any different from many other nations in both Asia and Africa?? Better yet, since when was the Philippines ever ruled by Arabs, Chinese, or Japanese?? Again, more b.s.
When will you stop worrying about the country of my ethnic origins and worry about more important issues like when your boyfriends are gonna feed you? Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Djehuti wrote: -------------------------------- Arabs colonized many countries in North Africa from Egypt to the Maghreb, you moron. --------------------------------
Notice again no proof is provided by him.
But lets play along just to humor the anti-intellectual lackey.
Djehuti, are you saying that when this so called colonization occured the present day boundaries of north african countries existed?
Also why are you obsessed with supposed Arab racism against so called "blacks"? Since according to you they colonized only north Africa, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say they were racist against the so called "berbers"?
Why are you focused on "blacks" and not "berbers" as victims of so called arab racism? (his words in quotes not mine folks)
Folks he has again showed his belief in a racial hiearchy that he uses when he posts on all of those race loon forums with his deranged friends. You see, Djehuti believes that "berbers" are "caucasoid" and "caucasoids" cannot be victims of racism. He believes that blacks are "negroid" and the "negroids" place in the world is that of a victim. (his words in quotes not mine folks)
Djehuti is a very mentally ill person.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ LOL As usual, the degenerate above and his psychosis knows no bounds! Where did I make a distinction between Berbers and blacks especially since the majority of Berbers are black?? Nevermind. Why am I asking a schizoid nutcase the basis for his questions?
Let us ignore this rubbish, and continue on with the topic unless someone wants to take a smack at the masochist fag.
Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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24. Arabs can gain control only over flat territory:
quote:This is because, on account of their savage nature, (the Arabs) are people who plunder and cause damage. They plunder whatever they are able to lay their hands on without having to fight or to expose themselves to danger. They then retreat to their pastures in the desert. They do not attack or fight except in self-defense. Every stronghold or (locality) that seems difficult (to attack), they bypass in favor of some less difficult (enterprise). They do not attack it. Tribes that are protected against (the Arabs) by inaccessible mountains are safe from their mischief and destructiveness. The Arabs would not cross hills or undergo hardship and danger in order to get to them.
Flat territory, on the other hand, falls victim to their looting and prey to their appetite whenever they (have the opportunity of) gaining power over it, when there is no militia, or when the dynasty is weak. Then they raid, plunder, and attack that territory repeatedly, because it is easily (accessible) to them. Eventually, its inhabitants succumb utterly to the Arabs and then they are pushed around by them in accordance with changes of control and shifts in leadership. Eventually, their civilization is wiped out. God has power over His creatures.
2. How is the Abbasid Dynasty generally regarded? Arabic or Black? The reason I ask is because according to the above book, in a section written by Chandler, the founder of the Abbasid Dynasty was Muhammads youngest uncle named Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (I guess from his Black fathers side?...which would have made him Black too?).
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
I thought some basic clarity was necessary here.
Arabs (a tribe) and Islam (a religion) are not the same thing. Arabs adopted to the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam did not come from Arabs. Islam was introduced to Arabs.
I've read about the Abbasid Dynasty myself and have came to my own no-brainier conclusions.
Modifications and/or Arab influences on Islam should not go unnoticed. As I understand it, the word "Allah" is of Arabic origin and has became the dominant word for "God" in Islam today. Originally the word "Allah" originates from a pagan moon god before Islam was brought to Arabs as revealed by the video link below. As far as the race of the man who originally brought Islam to Arabs? Well, it's gonna be a tough, long journey getting that answer.
Getting Arab specialists to admit the obvious is like getting Zahi Hawass to admit the truth that Ancient Kemetians were Black Africans and to publish recent findings he's refused to publish in fear of "National security". Do you know what you may be doing to a people who built almost their entire national, ethnic and religious pride on the weak foundation of degrading Black Africans?
quote:Originally posted by argyle104: Djehuti wrote: -------------------------------- Arabs colonized many countries in North Africa from Egypt to the Maghreb, you moron. --------------------------------
Notice again no proof is provided by him.
But lets play along just to humor the anti-intellectual lackey.
Djehuti, are you saying that when this so called colonization occured the present day boundaries of north african countries existed?
Also why are you obsessed with supposed Arab racism against so called "blacks"? Since according to you they colonized only north Africa, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say they were racist against the so called "berbers"?
Why are you focused on "blacks" and not "berbers" as victims of so called arab racism? (his words in quotes not mine folks)
Folks he has again showed his belief in a racial hiearchy that he uses when he posts on all of those race loon forums with his deranged friends. You see, Djehuti believes that "berbers" are "caucasoid" and "caucasoids" cannot be victims of racism. He believes that blacks are "negroid" and the "negroids" place in the world is that of a victim. (his words in quotes not mine folks)
Djehuti is a very mentally ill person.
Your right on point. But there's no need to overly stress that which is already quite obvious. Know when you've logically won over the most important things and keep the paces moving.
Posts: 213 | From: New York City, USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I just ordered 'The African Presence in Early Asia' and am surprised at how influential Black people were in the beginning days of Islam. I've always been intrigued by Islamic history because of the Moors and the Malian Empire. But reading through a preview of the above book has turned me on to this subject even more than I was before.
Maybe some here can answer some questions for me though. I don't know much about the Prophet Muhammad (grew up a Baptist Christian) so...
1. How accepted is it that he was half Black?
2. How is the Abbasid Dynasty generally regarded? Arabic or Black? The reason I ask is because according to the above book, in a section written by Chandler, the founder of the Abbasid Dynasty was Muhammads youngest uncle named Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib (I guess from his Black fathers side?...which would have made him Black too?).
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Most Islamic scholars would reject any notion that Muhammed was black or part black. Instead Islamic tradition seems to emphasize his whiteness according to Arab Muslims I have talked to. They usually quote things from the Hadith like:
In Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1 no. 63: "while we were sitting with the Prophet, a man came and said, "who amongst you is Mohammed?" We replied, "this white man reclining on his arm..."
Volume 2 Hadith no. 122: (which is not the Koran, but a reference book to Koran to which Muslims refer re: their faith): refers to Mohammed as a "white person".
Vol. 2 Hadith no. 141 we are told that when Mohammed raised his arms, "the whiteness of his armpits became visible."
The above being said, I would agree that blacks have their place in early Islam, just as they do in Christianity and Judaism. Like the Ethiopian government administrator in Acts 13 for example. In Judaism, Moses credits the Cushites (meaning 'black' in Hebrew) with developing the world's first large scale civilization through Nimrod son of Cush. (Genesis 10), and groups Egypt (Mizraim) as a relative of Cush, along with some others. Moses himself also married a black woman (Numbers 12).
So blacks have figured early on in the annals of the monotheistic religions, not as slaves but men of power in their own right.
As for Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib, it can hardly be inferred that he was black or part black from the historical record. As others say, you have to define what "black" is more clearly.
Posts: 73 | From: Bolville | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Another thing that should be understood also is that many Islamic documents written by non blacks are overtly racist, which again only serves to minimize and diminish the roles of blacks within Islam.
What you say is true. Several Islamic documents say racist things about blacks.
Muhammed, who traded in slaves made certain references to blacks, calling them 'raisin heads' for example, but this might have just been customary speech in those days.
Blacks called "raisin heads" (Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1, no. 662 and vol. 9, no. 256).
Mohammed calling blacks "pug-nosed slaves". (Sahih Moslem vol. 9 pages 46 and 47).
Islam mentions that whenever Mohammed dreamed of a black woman then it was an evil omen of disease (Hadith vol. 9, nos. 162, 163).
Then a number of Islamic writings hold that balcks are the accursed, inferior "sons of Ham." A comparison with the writings of Moses in Genesis 8-10, however reveals that the Hebrew lawgiver pronounced no "curse of Ham". He did predict that the nationsof Lebanon/Palestine etc would be conquered by the Hebrew ex-slaves that came out of Egypt, if indeed they did. But as for black people per se, Moses was quite respectful.
In Genesis 10, he credits the first large scale civilization to the Cushites, under Nimrod, son of Cush. And groups the Egyptians (Mizraim) with such 'darker' peoples as Cush, Punt, and Libya. It could be said that the Hebrew lawgiver gave blacks proper credit and respect. His writings though were later on distorted by Arab, Jewish and white racists, but his original documentation is pretty clear. Moses also married a black woman (Numbers 12). If he dreamed of such a woman before he married her, apparently she brought no disease to him.
Posts: 73 | From: Bolville | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: islamic history would not be considered black history because islam does not share power with any non-islamic group. islam came to subdue groups hence forth the name islam(submission). in islam we have arabs, african ethnic groups, euro ethnic groups, asiatic ethnic groups and the vast ethnic groups of the americas. All of these groups are in the same nation and all are subjects to the rule of islaam and their king is the lord of the heavens and the earth who gives them protection against their enemies. Islam is its own thing and will never share power or a seat with those who refuses to submit to their king.
Agreed. Blacks form part of Islamic history in various capacities, just as they do with Christianity and even Judaism. But to say Islamic history is black history is misleading.
Posts: 73 | From: Bolville | Registered: Nov 2008
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Arabs (a tribe) and Islam (a religion) are not the same thing. Arabs adopted to the religion of Islam. The religion of Islam did not come from Arabs. Islam was introduced to Arabs.
True, they are not the same thing, but can anyone easily separate Arabs from Islam? Muhammed himself was an Arab, and his original holy writings are in Arabic, as well as the Hadith, and Arabs made up the leading and dominant component of Islamic faith and expansion, although other peoples were to join them later on in that expansion. If you say Islam was brought to Arabs, who brought it? Any speculations? Could Islam be derivative of ancient Kemetic philosophy? After all, Akhnaten (sic) was an Egyptian forerunner in monotheism. Could Muhammed have derived his concepts from ancient Kemet?
quote:As I understand it, the word "Allah" is of Arabic origin and has became the dominant word for "God" in Islam today. Originally the word "Allah" originates from a pagan moon god before Islam was brought to Arabs as revealed by the video link below.
I see the video link, but it is just a personal video statement. Anyone can put together an opinion and post it on Youtube. We all know Muslims do not worship the moon. Do you have book references, or a website with written documentation or references by established mainstream scholars to back up your claim of a moon god?
Posts: 73 | From: Bolville | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ A primary reason for Arab racism against blacks was the exact same for Europeans, and that was imperialism with the Arab colonization of Africa and what not. Islam was a second reason in that Arabs began to use their religion to boast their supremacy. Ironically, the prophet Muhammad even warned all Muslims of this-- that his people would use their ethnicity to boast Islamic superiority.
I would agree, but could it not be that the Arab religion's incorporation of the "Curse of Ham" controbuted to this racism? Moses never had any "curse of Ham". He predicted the peoples of Lebanon/palestine/Caanan falling under the ex-slaves from Egypt, but as can be seen in Genesis 10, Cush went on to build powerful civilization, and Mizraim (Egypt) also went on to their own great civilization. Even Diop quotes Moses approvingly in "African origin of civilization."
And even as to Caanan, Moses' writings openly show that they were more advanced materially and technologically than the Hebrew ex-slaves/serfs/whatever. Doesn't sound like any "curse" there at all. Seems to me that Arabs have distorted Moses original writings to make black people "accursed".
Posts: 73 | From: Bolville | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote: Islam was a second reason in that Arabs began to use their religion to boast their supremacy
Islaam was the first reason they boasted. it is in the religion. " there is no supremacy of a black over a white or a white over a black except in obediance to god"
quote:Arabs (a tribe) and Islam (a religion)
arabs are not a single tribe according to their definition of what a tribe is. According to arabs( and im talking about scholars of arabic culture) arabs are more defined as a specific type of people. There are what you call the original families or tribes of the peninsula but they differ when it comes to relation with each other. they do not agree in lineage. There must be a note to non-arabs. pure arabs eat drink and live the family lineage. it is the custom and it is from the arab way of things. a person without a lineage to a particular individual is considered on the low totem pole far as practicing arab customs. NOW the religion of islaam is the glue that pulled all these tribes together to shift the definition of what a arab is and turn it from a certain character into more of a nationality. This exist in almost every expanding empire even though some people would not like to admit it. henceforth those people with berber,qibti,persian,african orgins all entered into this definition of arab because of their arabisation. much like the americanization of most the people of the united states. how many people have dropped their last name and not spoken their language to fit into the predominating society. anyway the terminology of the word arab towards arabs have many different meanings just like the word christian to the british colonist was used as a euphemism for white.
quote:Could Islam be derivative of ancient Kemetic philosophy?
that would be close to impossible because that would mean that a person, to learn such a complex discipline as kemetic philosophy, would have to go to school like any of the children of asiatic and kushite royalty who were obviously trained in that esoteric knowledge; it was not a kindergarten level thing and required people who were astute in such things. majority of the population of the arabs were plain illiterate. anyway learning technology or craftsmanship and sciences in pre-islamic arabic culture was a big no-no because WHY? it was not an arab thing to do unless you were a slave or a hired foriegner.Therfore they were proud to be illiterate of foriegn sciences.MOST OF THE Arabs were camel herders. muhammad said " We are an illiterate nation, we do not count nor do we read" i think it is really obvious were the muslim arabs recieved teh story of teh surse of ham from if one just actually reads the writings of masudi and qurtubi instead of quotes. the style of muslim scholars was like that of teh greeks and it was to present all arguments and accounts of a particular matter and not take sides if their is no conclusive evidence. they quote christians, jews, greeks, and romans and etc.. just like if one looks into plutarch you will find that the kemetians had a seth-red skin color-enemy story linked to the jews "They think(egyptian priest), as has been said, that the ass reaps the consequences of his resemblance because of his stupidity and his lascivious behaviour no less than because of his colour. This is also the reason why, since they hated Ochus most of all the Persian kings because he was a detested and abominable ruler, they nicknamed him "the Ass"; and he remarked, "But this Ass will feast upon your Bull," and slaughtered Apis, as Deinon has recorded. But those who relate that Typhon's flight from the battle was made on the back of an ass and lasted for seven days, and that after he had made his escape, he became the father of sons, Hierosolymus(city of Jerusalem) and Judaeus(judah), are manifestly, as the very names show, attempting to drag Jewish traditions into the legend."
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Seems to me that Arabs have distorted Moses original writings to make black people "accursed"
seems like your late in the game far as the origin of all blacks are cursed because of ham story. This story is only prevalent in two nations that reflect their treatment of blacks to this day but people are so gassed up on the media's portrayal of modern arab losers and a few quotes from arab writers to represent a whole group. this is normal however these traditions have their origins in jewish theology transfered via alexandria, a greek city to base inhabitants which were greeks. greek nobility into egypt had an adversity to foriegn ,very dark-skinned peoples. This would probably be attributed to alot of the failure to completely subdue the south(theban area)as talked about by mustapha galla. There is another tradition from maqrizi a muslim cairene scholar about maqauqis the byzantine christian greek ruler of egpyt meeting a companion(disciple) of the prophet muhammad named ubadat bin saamit who is described by umar the ruler of the muslims as only dark skinned tall and a man worth 1000 men. he is sent as a negotiator on behalf of the ruler to speak with this red greek. when the lizard sees him ubadat he becomes frightened because he is black-skinned. what does the grease-ball says to the rest of uteh arab emissaries who were lighter in color about the noble ubadat. This man is black and should not be your leader. he should be behind you. How did the "racist arabs" respond? they said NEVER!that even if he is black according to your opinionthen he is still more nobler than us in station and preferred by the muslim ruler. he is more intelligent than us and we seek his opinion, blackness is not a detest amongst us maqauqis the pig king said to ubaadat, " come forth (you)black and talk to me in a subtle way for i am frightened of your blackness.if you are to speak harsh then i will become afraid of you." ubaadat responded to the pig herder, " surely i heared your comments ironically, i have awaiting at my very command 1000 black men whose blackness is more darker than mine and more unbearable and if you i were to see them, then i would be more afraid than you are of me. i stay close with my youthful troops and have their back(duty as a muslim leader to fulfill his islamic duties towards allah) therefore with the praise of allah i am not afraid to face my enemies even if 1000 of them faced me and my companions will do the same thing. henceforth, the only thing that we are all concerned about and is the most imortant thing in our lives right now is to fight in the way of allah and to follow his book and his prophets guidance and to please allah. We do not fight or attack our enemies to seek wealth,women,slaves and riches on our own accord but only because allah has made this permissable for us. Most of us dont even care if he has achieved a mountain of wealth or that he doesn't even have one dirham. To us i goal in worldly things is to eat a dish that one eats to abate his hunger of the night and day. that would cover him for the day. if a person amongst us do not have more than this then this would suffice him. if he had recieved a mountain of gold then he would spend it for the sake of allah and would only spend on himself that which is a small amount. this is because the nice things of the world are not really nice and possessing little of it is not really a low means. these things are only in the hereafter therefore our lord and our prophet ordered us and made us promise that we dont make it(worldy things) the most important thing in life except that which abates his hunger, covers his private parts, and to make his worries and business in pleasing ALLAH and fighting his enemy.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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Now of course, contemporary practitioners of these religions tend to passionately balk at the mere mention of this, because of obvious religious fanaticism that comes along with the mentality of the need for one to be convinced that the "holy book comes down to us by the Almighty one"...who is not to be questioned, but ancient Nile valley immigrants, who would forge a coalition with local Canaanites to form Israelites, brought the foundations of Jewish religion along with them to the region and it was inspired by Kemetic theological concepts amongst other legends & themes from Kemet. Christianity in turn was inspired by Judaism, and likewise Islam follows along that line.
To take for example, this recap courtesy of Budge...
The late Dr. H. Brugsch collected a number of the epithets [published in “Religion” pages 99-101] which are applied to the gods, from texts of all periods; and from these we may see that the ideas and beliefs of the Egyptians concerning God were almost identical with those of the Hebrew and Muhammadans at later periods. When classified these epithets read thus [Budge provides more examples, I’ll just stick to a few] :-
“ God is One and alone, and none other existeth with Him; God is the One, the One Who hath made all things.”
“God is a spirit, a hidden spirit, the spirit of spirits, the great spirit of the Egyptians, the divine spirit.”
“God is from the beginning, and He hath been from the beginning; He hath existed from of old and was when nothing else had being. He existed when nothing else existed, and what existeth He created after He hand come into being. He is the father of beginnings.”
“God is the eternal One, He is eternal and infinite; and endureth for ever and aye; He hath endured for countless ages, and He shall endure to all eternity.”
“ God is the hidden Being, and no man hath known His form. No man hath been able to see out His likeness; He is hidden from gods and men, and He is a mystery unto His creatures”
“God is merciful unto those who reverence Him, and He heareth him that calleth upon Him. He protected the weak against the strong, and He heareth the cry of him that is bound in fetters; He judgeth between the mighty and the weak. God knoweth him that knoweth Him, and He protected him that followed Him.”
These epithets would sound familiar to those of us who are objective enough to admit it.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Actually there are aspects of ancient Egyptian religion in Islam. Prostrating oneself in worship is one example(down on the hands and knees). Look at Islam as basically a large helping of theology based around Ptah or the word. In ancient Egypt, the word was law and symbolic of the divine creation of the universe and the laws that established the ordering of things in it. This is what Ptah represents. This "divine mind" then allocates part of his power to the Pharaoh who's word becomes law and the ancient Egyptians often spoke of Ptah granting this power to the king.
Islam means submission to the power and authority of 'the word' of the prophet, as symbolic of the power and authority of God. Within Islam, the tradition is that Mohamed, being illiterate, passed his ideas verbally to his lieutenants. These lieutenants then went forth and passed them on. In turn others then others then passed them on further. Eventually these things got written down and called Hadith. There are hundreds of thousands of Hadith or "laws" that have been written and there is a whole branch of Islamic law that deals with validating whether a specific Hadith is valid. The key here is that various Islamic rulers came along and modeled themselves as the prophet bringing the truth to the unbelievers and began making up THEIR OWN rules as Hadith. THAT is why there hundreds of thousands of such rules on record and MOST of them are bogus (have nothing to do with Mohamed). This only symbolizes the word as the law and the followers having to obey these "rules". Most of the divisions and conflict in Islam boils down to the fact people were battling over who's word was "the law" (who was the prophet) and had to be followed (along with the wealth and power that went with it.)
quote: The basic theological principle of Islam is tawhid, the oneness or unicity of God. In the Qur'an, this concept is summarized in Sura (discourse) 112, the "Sura of Sincere Belief" (Surat al-Ikhlas), and its text is commonly recited in the Islamic prayer:
Say: He is Allah, the Unique, Allah the Perfect, beyond compare. He gives not birth, nor is He begotten, And He is not, in Himself, dependent on anything.
The idea that God is one, unique and transcendent, constitutes the fundamental message of the Qur'an. Indeed, one can go so far as to say that tawhid is what the Qur'an is "really" about. Nearly every Qur'anic discourse, in one way or another, serves to demonstrate the existence of Allah-- the One God, absolutely independent, absolutely transcendent, and immanent yet utterly beyond compare.
Tawhid is also what Islam is "really" about. The Arabic word, Islam, connotes surrender, submission, or giving oneself up to another's disposal. A full understanding of tawhid implies that universal or primordial Islam submission to God as the sole master of destiny and ultimate Reality- is an ontological state that pertains to all created beings. Unlike animals, angels, and jinn, the other sentient beings mentioned in the Qur'an, humans are endowed with the capacity of choice. Because humans are endowed with choice, it is incumbent upon them that their acknowledgement of tawhid be a matter of choice. The most important sign or token of this acknowledgement is the conscious submission of a person's individual will or ego to The One who manifestly is. This act of submission is what the Qur'an means by Islam. Only when both the faith and practice of one's Islam are in accord with a full understanding of tawhid can a person truly be called a Muslim, "one who submits to God."
Similarly, a formal act of submission and a reaffirmation of tawhid through symbolic gestures constitute the "meaning" of the Islamic prayer. At its most basic level, prayer is a form of remembrance. From the perspective of the individual Muslim believer, prayer constitutes one's remembrance of the essential reality of tawhid, one's remembrance of human contingency before the Divine Absolute, and one's remembrance of human weakness before the manifestation of Divine power and potency. In Understanding Islam (Comprendre l'Islam), Frithjof Schuon, the noted esoterist and specialist on comparative religion, sums up the Islamic God-man relation in the following terms:
Islam is the meeting between God as such and man as such. God as such: that is to say God envisaged, not as He manifested Himself in a particular way at a particular time, but independently of history and inasmuch as He is what He is and also as He creates and reveals by His nature. Man as such: that is to say man envisaged, not as a fallen being needing a miracle to save him, but as man, a theomorphic being endowed with an intelligence capable of conceiving of the Absolute and with a will capable of choosing what leads to the Absolute . [2]
In Islam, fundamental error consists in rejecting or misunderstanding the concept of tawhid-- in holding that the Absolute is not absolute, or that it is relative, or that there is more than one Absolute, or that the relative itself is absolute. Sin consists in actualizing this error on the level of human behavior. In the Qur'an, Pharaoh personifies fundamental error and sin through his denial of the uniqueness of the Absolute and by his hubris in considering himself more than a mortal man.
It often comes as a surprise to the non-Muslim to discover that the most widely mentioned prophet in the Qur'an is Moses. In a number of Qur'anic narratives, Moses is depicted as a Messenger (rasul) and bearer of divine authority (sultan). In these passages, Moses wields the signs and credentials of authority that God has bestowed on him as part of a campaign for spiritual, moral, and social purification (tazkiya), justice ('adl), and prosperity (thawba Allah). [3] More than the just the political liberator of his people, the Qur'anic Moses is a Messenger of the divine word and liberator of the human soul. In the course of the Qur'anic narrative he transforms the tribe of Israel (Banu Isra'il), the oppressed and lowly slaves of the lordly Pharaoh, into a paradigmatic community of divine guidance (umma)-- a community whose servitude now belongs only to God.
In the Qur'anic narrative, Pharaoh appears as Moses' foil: his grandeur, limitless worldly authority, and pretended divinity contrast sharply with Moses' simplicity, lack of rhetorical fluency (Moses is depicted as a stutterer in the Qur'an), and complete dependence on guidance from above. Yet despite his personal shortcomings, the Qur'an mentions time and again that Moses, not Pharaoh, is the one who possesses true authority (sultan). [4] In Arabic, the word sultan means "holder of power." Depending on its context, this word can mean a divinely guided leader, a ruler, or even a dictator, whose authority is based on the force of arms alone. Unlike the truly authoritative leadership of Moses, which is described in the Qur'an as a divine mission (risala) to carry God's word (kalam) to Israel and the people of Egypt, the leadership of Pharaoh is depicted as completely illegitimate, based as it is on power, oppression, and vanity. The most conclusive proof of Pharaoh's illegitimacy lies in his outrageous claim of divinity-- an act of hubris unparalleled by any other in the Qur'anic narrative:
Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! I know of no God for you but myself. Therefore, O Haman! Light me [a kiln] out of clay, and build me a lofty palace that I may mount up to the god of Moses. For verily I believe that Moses is a liar!" [Qur'an 28:38]
And [Pharaoh] was arrogant and insolent in the land-- beyond reason, he and his hosts. They thought that they would not have to return to Us! [Qur'an 28:39]
Has the story of Moses come to you? Behold, his Lord called to him in the sacred valley of Tuwa: "Go to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed all bounds, "And say to him: Do you wish to be purified? And should I guide you to your Lord so that you may fear him?'" Then Moses showed [Pharaoh] the Great Sign (al-aya al-kubra). But he rejected it and disobeyed. Then he turned his back, striving hard [against God]. And he collected [his hosts] and made a proclamation, Saying: "I am your lord most high!" (ana rabbukum al-a'la) [Qur'an 79:15-24]
The belief in the divinity of Pharaoh in New Kingdom Egypt (when the term, "Pharaoh" was first used as a royal title) is well attested. The Egyptian people identified Pharaoh with the sky god Horus and with the sun gods Ra and Amon. After death Pharaoh was transformed into Osiris, god of the dead and father of Horus, and passed on his sacred powers to his son, the new Pharaoh and the new Horus. Pharaoh's divine status was also believed to endow him with magical powers. His uraeus (the serpent on his crown) was believed to spit flames at his enemies. In addition, Pharaoh was all-powerful, knowing everything and controlling nature and fertility. As a divine ruler, he was believed to preserve the divine order, called ma'at. He was responsible for his people's economic and spiritual welfare, and dispensed justice to his subjects. [5]
These historical tokens of Pharaoh's divinity provide striking contrasts to the divinely bestowed "signs" (ayat) of authority ascribed to Moses in the Qur'an. Pharaoh was associated with the gods of the sun and the sky. Moses was sent as a Messenger by the One God (Allah or al-Ilah, "The God"), who reigns above both sun and sky. (Moses said: "Oh Pharaoh! I am a Messenger from the Lord of the Worlds. It is my duty to say nothing but the truth about God." [Qur'an 7:104-5]) Pharaoh gave birth to a new god, Horus, by delegating his powers to his son. In the Qur'an, Moses delegates (awzara) the duties of prophethood (but not his custodianship of the divine message) to his brother Aaron. The magical powers believed to be controlled by Pharaoh are contrasted in the Qur'an with the divine miracles given as tokens of grace to Moses by Allah. Moses' transformation of his shepherd's staff into a serpent may well be an ironic echo of the Egyptian belief in the fire-spitting cobra of Pharaoh's uraeus. ("Then Moses threw down his staff, and behold, it was a serpent! And he drew out his hand, and behold, it appeared white to the onlookers!" [Qur'an 7:107-8]. And we inspired unto Moses: "Throw down your staff! For it will swallow all of the falsehoods that they may devise!" [7:117]) Finally, the Egyptians believed that Pharaoh controlled the divine order. Moses, along with the other Islamic prophets, exhibited an intuitive knowledge of the divine order and governed the affairs of his people through the Law of Divine Command (shari'ah min al-amr) [Qur'an 45:18]. This latter term refers to more than just the divine governance of human affairs. It also carries the connotation of the "way of the world" or the natural order, analogous to the Egyptian concept of ma'at, and the Vedic concept of rta.
Note that the highest expression of the oneness ideal of Islam is found in the African Ibn Tumart. Ibn Tumart was one of the leaders of the Almohades. Again, this is another example of the powerful force African theology played on the creation of Islam.
quote: But it was while preaching around Tunisia, that he came to formulate the core of his reform program, which stated:
The one who sees anything wrong, should act to change it by his hand. If he cannot do it with his hand, he shall do it with his tongue. If he cannot do it with his tongue, he shall do it in his own heart. This is what the religion demands you to do.
Ibn Tumart would not make new friends with this doctrine, and the local rulers felt their authority threatened. As a result, Ibn Tumart had to seek refuge with a Berber tribe in the region. While hiding, Ibn Tumart met the man who came to be his foremost disciple, Abd al-Mu'min.
quote: Ibn Tumart started in life as a reformer of the corruptions of his day, and seems to have slipped from that into the belief that he had been appointed by God as the great reformer for all time. As happens with reformers, from exhortation it came to force; from preaching at the abuses of the government to rebellion against the government. That government, the Murabit, went down before Ibn Tumart and his successors, and the pontifical rule of the Muwahhids, the asserters of God's tawhid or unity, rose in its place. The doctrine which he preached bears evident marks of the influence of al-Ghazzali and of Ibn Hazm. Tawhid, for him, meant a complete spiritualizing of the conception of God. Opposed to tawhid, he set tajsim, the assigning to God of a jism or body having bulk. Thus, when the theologians of the West took the anthropomorphic passages of the Qur’an literally, he applied to them the method of ta’wil, or interpretation, which he had learned in the East, and explained away these stumbling-blocks. Ibn Hazm, it will be remembered, resorted to grammatical and lexicographical devices to attain the same end, and had regarded ta’wil with abhorrence. To Ibn Tumart, then, this tajsim was flat unbelief and, as Mahdi, it was his duty to oppose it by force of arms, to lead a jihad against its maintainers. Further, with Ibn Hazm, he agreed in rejecting taqlid. There was only one truth, and it was man's duty to find it for himself by going to the original sources.
Or, the word is a vehicle to transmit symbolic meaning about the nature of the divine and his creation. This is fundamentally the same as the core principle of the neters and the systems of Egyptian cosmology, which was heavily based on symbolism and the concept of "one in all".
It is from the interaction with older mystical traditions of Africa, Persia, Babylon and India that forms the core of many of the esoteric writings of Islam and most of them are from the "golden age" and some of the most powerful are from Islamic Spain and North and West Africa.
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You must understand as well that the Sufi or "mystic" traditions of Islam are QUITE DIFFERENT than orthodox Islam. The mystic tradition contends that no man is a slave to another, in submission to God. It also contends that ALL is God and man can experience this unity (tawhid), through proper observation and understanding of the word. Of course many of these writings came from Persia, Africa and India. But the ORTHODOX was threatened by this. They needed the believers to follow the word and "laws" of the local Mahdi (prophet) to the grave submit themselves totally to it. This is just another part of the major upheavals in Islamic theology that many do not understand. And these upheavals caused many works to be branded as heretic and many writers and thinkers to be cast as unbelievers. And those works that were SO INFLUENTIAL that they couldn't be totally abolished, had to be somewhat "reworked" to fit within the ORTHODOXY. The ORTHODOXY stressing SUBMISSION. Obviously SUBMISSION was a important theme for early Islam that was expanding through conquest. It was also important as a way of tamping down rebellions. But even with all of this, these mystical traditions were VERY IMPORTANT in the development of Islamic theology and many principles that were developed by such mystic thinkers have become hallmarks of the religion today, in one way or another.
quote: The ideas and teachings of Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi are important in the history of Islam, for he has left a permanent impression on Indian Muslim thought. Shaikh Ahmad, now called the Twelfth Renovator, was born in the Punjab in 1002 (A.D. 1593). After completing his religious education he joined the Suhrawardi and Chishti orders of the Sufis, but later he became a member of the Naqshbandi order. Shaikh Ahmad was quick to perceive the spiritual degeneration which had overtaken his contemporaries, the Sufis as well as the ulama. While the Sufis, under the influence of Ibn Arabi’s philosophy, had come to believe in the doctrine of the unity of existence and were prone to abolish all distinction between God and man, the ulama were under the spell of a narrow legalism which led to interminable disputes on minor points of law. Both, according to Shaikh Ahmad, had lost the moral fervor of Islam.
Shaikh Ahmad regarded the Sufis as more dangerous than the ulama for he clearly perceived that all the commandments of religion are based on a distinction between God and His creation. If creation were unreal and God alone had existence, as Ibn Arabi maintained, then the need for religion and law vanish, and, what is more important, life and existence would become matters of little moment. No wonder that the Sufis sought refuge in the doctrine of annihilation in God, leaving mundane matters to be attended to by worldly-minded men. Therefore, Shaikh Ahmad set himself to disprove the philosophy of Ibn Arabi and put forward the contention that the mystic experience of the unity of God and the world is an illusion. He affirmed the existence of the world as a separate entity which is the shadow of a Real Being. This philosophy was directed against the pantheistic ideas of the Sufis, which were influenced by Ibn Arabi and drew largely upon Hindu sources.
Shaikh Ahmad’s writings gained for him a considerable following, both at the Mughal court and in the army. Jahangir for a time took strong steps to check his pervasive influence but, faced with an uprising by one of his army chiefs who was an adherent of Shaikh Ahmad, came to terms with him. It was agreed that all of the non-Islamic practices adopted by Akbar, such as prostration before the emperor and the prohibition of beef, should be stopped at once. Jahangir afterward became a devoted follower of Shaikh Ahmad, and thus Muslim orthodoxy was able to reassert itself after a brief eclipse.
Here is an example from Irabi (the alchemical marriage of intellect and Soul):
quote: Translation from: The Fabulous Gryphon ('Anqâ' Mughrib)
Since that which is true in Vision is a major part of Prophecy, we swore our belief in what such Vision confers and conveys of the Favors of the Real (Praised be He!). For I entered the House of Lights and let down the curtains and the veils, jealously protective of the harem. Then, while I was conversing intimately with the Real in His presence, the attraction of a Mighty One attracted me to him, and the Real installed me in the Station of the 'Ocean' - the waves of which heave and overflow, one entering into another and rising aloft. And I was in a State which no one can know but he who has borne it, and no one describe but he who has seen it, as has been said:
No one knows Desire except for one who bears it, nor fervent Longing, but he who suffers from it.
... Now, consider and contemplate, O Most-perfect Saint, a Prophet whose body had been lost, while the memorial of his Way remained in Tradition: Called up from his tomb by night, he was led forth to his Gathering, the Living one joining with the dead - who, then, was 'gathered up,' the Lord of the House remaining in the House, which thus was filled with life!
Then [the Prophet Muhammad] requested the hand of his 'Little Fair-One' [A'ishah] from his 'Noble One' [Abû Bakr al-Siddîq], plucking her from the hand of his Friend (sadîqu-hu). He proposed for her a bridal-price (sadâq) the figure of which was unknown to me, and requested of me a testimony to that effect. So he wrote on a piece of red silk a document in shining gold, and I was the first, by his permission and command (May God bless him!), to witness his dower - that being in his highest Stopping-place and most-manifest Station. When he had so commanded, [the Prophet's] dower was left in my care, and he entered his dwelling with his Bride, secluding himself with her, while the dower remained in my possession till the expiry of my term.
Then, when the Dawn broke for him who has two eyes, bringing together for me the Two Lights, I did not find a 'Bride' ('irs) or a 'Husband' (ba'l) other than my own Essence, nor a dower other than my own Nature and attributes. For I was myself both the Husband and the Bride, and I married together the Intellect and the Soul. And the 'Little Fair One' became purified by her Husband, supported by the firm will of her Intellect.
I marveled at my affair - that there was none but me! Thus, I arrived at the lifting of the veils on matters concealed: And I marveled at a Shore which has no sea for its complement to seek refuge in, and at a Sea without a shore for its waves to break upon; and at a Speaker of realities without a tongue and places of articulation, and a Silent One who ceases not to summon and show the Way to God; and a Sphere without location which is not known to anyone, nor does anyone not know it; and a Dome without supports, and a rich Earth which is not based on causes desecrated by being mentioned and adulterated by Thought. For its Causes are, rather, from the Presence of That which occurs not to the mind of man, nor does the attentive ear hear its report, nor eye-sight perceive it truly.
quote:but ancient Nile valley immigrants, who would forge a coalition with local Canaanites to form Israelites, brought the foundations of Jewish religion along with them to the region and it was inspired by Kemetic theological concepts amongst other legends & themes from Kemet
i would have to disagree with the theological part. maybe in general custom and tradition but in theology ,no, due to this. "you should answer, ‘Your servants have tended livestock from our boyhood on, just as our fathers did.’ Then you will be allowed to settle in the region of Goshen, for all shepherds are detestable to the Egyptians."Genesis 46:34 in their own book they explain that they are no more but the descendants of amu(cattle,asiatics,jews,arabs,syrians,sheep herders.,etc)This was a general expression of these people despite the nations and tribes that existed within these ranks. These people did not waste their time in studying theology that is not even their own. It would have been totally against the way of a shepherd bedouin type lifestyle. It was known by consensus of settled states that these people were not the type to study. I think this is not thought out because of people's lack of experience with people who take on the same lifestyle(bedouin,shepherds,etc.) They are not interested in theology. Anyway, have anybody took a look at the different theologies that existed in the egyptian state. It is not a common knowledge thing. This is highly advanced and would require instruction in which only the elite foriegners could get that kind of instruction. other than that these people before they received their book and instructions could never had been influenced theologically by anybody except that of the technology of a broom and a splashing in mud.
"let us look at another verse in the jews own book And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians"genesis 43:32 what does the tale of sinuhe say of them " And I went about my encampment rejoicing, and saying: How should such things be done to a servant whom his heart led astray to barbarous lands? " If i am not mistaken theological training was granted to priest caste and the king. everybody else were just learning other things
quote:Alongside the inculcation of general rules of morality there was, of course, formal vocational training. Young men did not usually choose their own careers. Herodotus and Diodorus refer explicitly to hereditary callings in ancient Egypt.
This was not in fact a system of rigid inheritance but an endeavor, as one Middle Kingdom stele puts it, to pass on a father's function to his children. Several other sources confirm that this happened with the consent of the king or his plenipotentiaries. Thus we find throughout Egyptian history a tendency for even the highest offices to remain in the same families.
what do the ethiopians have to say about such a matter
"they add that the Egyptians have received from them, as from authors and their ancestors, the greater part of their laws.
"They further write that it was among them that people were first taught to honor the gods and offer sacrifices and arrange processions and festivals and perform other things by which people honor the divine. For this reason their piety is famous among all men, and the sacrifices among the Aithiopians [Ethiopians] are believed to be particularly pleasing to the divinity
and the sealer of it all "Also the way the priestly colleges are organized is said to be the same in both nations. For all who have to do with the cult of the gods, they maintain, are [ritually] pure: the priests are shaved in the same way, they have the same robes and the type of scepter shaped like a plough, which also the kings have, who use tall pointed felt hats ending in a knob, with the snakes that they call the asp (aspis) coiled round them." This is not the way of a people who are despised by the holders of such knowledge which it in it self can only be passed to an elite caste of people within their own society ,nor is it the way of shepherds that they claim such a vocation(devotion of time in the aquiring priestly knowledge) as discussed in their own book.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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let us take a look at a concise explanation of the yoruba religion
quote:The philosophy of Yorùbá (also known as Irunmole, Ifa, Orisha or Aborisha) is that all humans have Ayanmo (manifest destiny) to become one in spirit with Olódùmarè (Olòrún, the divine creator and source of all energy). Each person in Ayé (the physical realm) uses thought or action energies to impact the community of all other living things including the Earth, and so to move towards destiny. As such, one's destiny is in one's hands. To attain transcedence and destiny in Òrún-Réré (spiritual realm of those who do good and beneficial things), one's Orí-Inu (spiritual consciousness in the physical realm) must be elevated to unify with one's Iponri (Orí Òrún). Those who stop improving are destined for Òrún-Apadi (spiritual realm of the forsaken). Life and death are cycles of habitation in physical body and spiritual realms while one's spirit evolves toward transcendence. This evolution is most advanced in Irùnmolẹ (oní irun, of the unique hair that distinguishes humans from beasts; imo, enlightened of destiny, ilẹ on the land)
For most people, iwapẹlẹ (balanced culture), meditation and sincere veneration sufficiently strengthen one's Orí-Inu. One is able to gbadúra (pray) for support of the Egungun (one's elevated ancestors) or the Orí-Òrún for application of the Odu (knowledge of all ages) to one's benefit. Those with strong motivation to manipulate destiny may consult Orunmila through Ifá (divination sciences) and ẹbò (offering). In invoking the Orunmila so directly, care is required to ensure alignment of thought and action. The Orunmila brings into motion either Oríṣà (benevolent or angelic forces) or Ajẹ (malevolent or demonic forces). All communication with the Òrún is energized by invoking Àṣẹ (the essence of Olódùmarè that gives life to all). Àṣẹ is delivered by Ẹlégbara (Eṣu, the divine messenger) who, without distortion or partiality for good or for bad, negotiates communication to the Òrún and navigates Òrún forces to the Ayé.
can any one honestly say that a person who stay busy in physical hard work to put food in ones mouth like most sojourning a'amu did in egypt would have time to quit what they were doing to study such philosophy. even american farmers were adamant about sending their kids to school when there was more need on the farm. It is just not the way of most people who take on a way life as such. anyway a'amu were nomadic and that life is even more harder than a farmer.
what is not seen or realized is that such people(nomadic) are the perfect type of peeople to use if one wants to eradicate other religions because usually as said by many authors that nomads do not fight you in warlike formations or in such rules but they attack you in their style which is when you are weak and least expecting it so that they may plunder. deep theology such as voudun,santeria,yoruba theology, egyptian theology,dogon religion,etc. is too complex for nomadic shepherds and camel herders. This requires one to be in a more safe, fortified, settled environment with enough finances to accomodate deep thought. This is exactly what birthed such societies of such theology. Alot of these theologies mentioned require one to obtain certain knowledge of physical sciences, farming technique, philosophy, math(calendars),cast ironing, etc.. on top of this you will have to leaRN THE CUlture of the people because it is in their theology surrounded their language. have you not noticed that the nations in africa that accepted islaam as a whole nation were in the past nomadic in vocation just like most arabs were. fulani, imashagen, zaghawa, somali, etc.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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you can see this in the formations of the lands of teh arabs or were the lands were governed by islaam. The religion started out being propagated to arabs by an arab in an arab way. when this religion finally passed into the hands of non-arabs mostly peoples of previous civilisation this is when you start to see the religion take sciences in it's propagation for teh sake of preserviing teh religion. This is the same with the african theologies in which most of their most famous theologies came from settled integrated peoples and not nomadic tribesman. the religion was taught by way of oral recitation which is very very arab, even till this day in teh peninsula amongst bedouin tribes. This being that they were a illiterate people who did not care to embrace such vices as reading and writing for this was the way of non-arabs. This is not specifically arab but that of a people who share the same types of lifestyles. Hwy do you think that the latter generation of muslim scholars in religious and worldy sciences are predominately non-arab in lineage. 3 or 4th generation arab. this is attested by ibn khaldun himself. he said it is rare that you will find an arab scholar. just look at the most fdamous araboic dictionaries and grammar books. qamoos muheet and lisaan al-arab written by persian descent muslims. ajrumiyya by a an sanhaji berber-descent muslim. uthman dan fodio gives a list of west african scholars and other tarikh books of the sudan-ul-maghrib(ahl-ul-takrur) which is the whole west african region and not just in reference to the state. i forgot to add that the earliest people who accepted the religion of such nomadic peoples(arabs, israelites) is that they were mostly the despised people of their community.You will find that this trend still exist to this day in other countries.
Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:but ancient Nile valley immigrants, who would forge a coalition with local Canaanites to form Israelites, brought the foundations of Jewish religion along with them to the region and it was inspired by Kemetic theological concepts amongst other legends & themes from Kemet
i would have to disagree with the theological part.
I suspected you would do so, as I noted in the part you did not cite, which was:
contemporary practitioners of these religions tend to passionately balk at the mere mention of this, because of obvious religious fanaticism that comes along with the mentality of the need for one to be convinced that the "holy book comes down to us by the Almighty one"...who is not to be questioned
Anyone with an ounce of objectivity can see that Islam draws from the same "Abrahamic" theme as the Jewish religion and the Quran even provides a prospective narrative of events surrounding the eponymous ancestors detailed in Jewish bible and how the Islamic faith is the ultimate outgrowth of the mission entrusted to those ancestors. Thus by this association alone, the Quran *itself* is essentially admitting the remote origins of its monotheistic traditions among the Jews. It doesn't matter how many lines you selectively take out of either the Bible or Quran, that link is apparent.
It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to see how the following could be:
ancient Nile valley immigrants, who would forge a coalition with local Canaanites to form Israelites, brought the foundations of Jewish religion along with them to the region and it was inspired by Kemetic theological concepts amongst other legends & themes from Kemet
...since Jewish ancestors, even going by their own admission, were in Kemet prior to settling in the Levant. Likewise, since these Arab bedouins live in this same region and general area, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to see how these concepts precipitated onto them, i.e. aside from learning about this prospect from simply reading themes in the Quran and the Jewish Bible and drawing from it, the apparent links; this would be the case regardless of whether one selectively cites from either the Quran or Jewish Bible, as supposed examples of differences in theological perspectives. Nor is it necessary that the bedouins -- as small mobile groups -- were either literate and/or interested in *proactively and actively* studying Jewish theological dogma, so as to be on the receiving end of cultural diffusion. It can come through conquests, adoption for geopolitical considerations of social elites as they seek out alliances to safeguard their socio-economic interest, inter-ethnic interactions stemming from immigration [like say for example, marital unions], or plain old demic diffusion of a smaller but influential [like say, as the purveyors of new and more technologically advanced ideas] group from one region to another. Nobody is arguing for total duplication of ideas inspired from the source(s) of inspiration, for in many cases, externally inspired ideas are often synchronized with locally conceived ones at some point or another.
quote:Anyway, have anybody took a look at the different theologies that existed in the egyptian state.
Yes, and as a matter of fact, we have discussed that subject and how the foundations of the Abrahamic religious tradition lay in the Nile Valley and was brought & modified in the Levant through the Jewish [aka ancient Israelites] link.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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These are the words of 10 men. An entire people of 600,000 men between the ages of 20 to 50 are said to have left Egypt only a few generations after the 12 brothers and their families (a total of 70 people) entered Egypt.
Besides that geographic origin has nothing to do with theology.
But surely the Hebrew literature posits that city dweller turned cattle tending Abraham was very much a theologian converting many people in Haran to his belief in a non-corporeal represented deity.
This Abraham's grandson Ya`aqob a well noted herdsman "dwelled in tents." That's a metaphor alluding to study. Legend has it the tents were the "academy of Shem and `Eber" where Ya`aqob learned theology. Much later Moshe, raised in palaces as a pharaoh's grandson, attained all the "wisdom of Egypt."
The headmen of the Hebrews who became the Children of Israel were theologians. They and the `Ereb Rab (mixed multitude) who left Egypt incorporated both Mesopotamian and Egyptian spirituality into their own characteristic theology.
For concrete examples peruse the three books I listed elsewhere.
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
quote:but ancient Nile valley immigrants, who would forge a coalition with local Canaanites to form Israelites, brought the foundations of Jewish religion along with them to the region and it was inspired by Kemetic theological concepts amongst other legends & themes from Kemet
i would have to disagree with the theological part. maybe in general custom and tradition but in theology ,no, due to this. "you should answer, ‘Your servants have tended livestock from our boyhood on, just as our fathers did.’ Then you will be allowed to settle in the region of Goshen, for all shepherds are detestable to the Egyptians."Genesis 46:34 in their own book they explain that they are no more but the descendants of amu(cattle,asiatics,jews,arabs,syrians,sheep herders.,etc)This was a general expression of these people despite the nations and tribes that existed within these ranks. These people did not waste their time in studying theology that is not even their own. It would have been totally against the way of a shepherd bedouin type lifestyle. It was known by consensus of settled states that these people were not the type to study. I think this is not thought out because of people's lack of experience with people who take on the same lifestyle(bedouin,shepherds,etc.) They are not interested in theology. Anyway, have anybody took a look at the different theologies that existed in the egyptian state. It is not a common knowledge thing. This is highly advanced and would require instruction in which only the elite foriegners could get that kind of instruction. other than that these people before they received their book and instructions could never had been influenced theologically by anybody except that of the technology of a broom and a splashing in mud.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One black influetial figure I know of in Islam is Bilal ibn Rabah, a former slave from Ethiopia and companion of Muhammad. It was Bilal who became the first muezzin-- person who makes the adhan (call to prayer). In fact even today when muezzin make the adhan they try to do so in an Ethiopian accent.
But all in all, any black influence or prominence in Islam is not surprising since Arabia is right next to Africa with some blacks who are native to Arabia anyway.
I have an Egyptian friend (white) who told me that Bilal was Black. He told me that the Arabians were black. My Somali friend told me the same thing. He told me that the indigenous population of Arabia was black and his great-grandfather came from Saudi Arabia and he was a very black man.
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There is no doubt that the first Arabians came from Africa. But that was many,many thousands of years ago. What is in question is when the Asiatic whites became the predominant population of this region. Some may say 2,000 years ago others 500 and still others 5-10,000. But the fact remains that the aboriginal population of Arabia was black and that later waves of migrations from Europe and Asia are what have created the diversity in features found in Arabia today.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There is no doubt that the first Arabians came from Africa. But that was many,many thousands of years ago. What is in question is when the Asiatic whites became the predominant population of this region. Some may say 2,000 years ago others 500 and still others 5-10,000. But the fact remains that the aboriginal population of Arabia was black and that later waves of migrations from Europe and Asia are what have created the diversity in features found in Arabia today.
The first Arabians didn't come from Africa. They were always in Asia.
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^^^ Do you have any proven references on this? What is the origin of the Arabs, the people of Mohammed?
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: I have an Egyptian friend (white) who told me that Bilal was Black. He told me that the Arabians were black. My Somali friend told me the same thing. He told me that the indigenous population of Arabia was black and his great-grandfather came from Saudi Arabia and he was a very black man. [/QB]
Bilal may gave been black, and he may have been set free. But the Prophet did not go on to free thousands of his other black brothers. Their lot was to keep getting enslaved and dying under the brutal Arab slave regime. Indeed, as a prosperous merchant, Mohammed himself must have traded in black bodies.
He also said that dreams of black women were an evil omen, a foreshadowing of disease. Contrast with Moses, who did not run black women down, but actually married one.
All was not hunky-dory when the black man Bilal issued his call to prayer. Indeed one PRO Islamic website tells a different story. When the black man tried to do his job, a lot of his Arab "brothers" apparently tried to stab him in the back. Maybe they felt he was "too black".
But some Muslims could not bear to accept Bilal as a rightful Muezzin because he was black- skinned, and when they heard him call—which was often—they even prayed that they could die, so as not to have to hear the Ethiopian’s voice (Azan) ever again.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of "brotherhood" among contemporaries of the Prophet.
Generous as Mohamed is claimed to be, Mecca still remained a major slave trading center in black flesh, and millions of blacks still made the dismal trek to Islamic lands, with few surviving, necessitating constant replenishment. And the notion of "kindler, gentler" Islamic slavery and blacks is a hollow myth. One of the biggest black slave rebellions of all time was against Arab oppressors, the Zanj rebellion in Iraq, circa 869, where thousands of black slaves beaten down in the malarial salt marshes of Iraq by their Arab "brothers", struck for freedom.
Blacks did however find suitable employment in Mohammed's Mecca. The black saggas, or slave men, are reported in olden times to be of use in providing mineral water to city residents at dusk during Ramadan.
And yet, black folk are urged by Arab Muslims to make pilgrimages and worship at the grave of a Caucasian slave-trader, whose people devastated black Kemet..
Posts: 29 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Kamburr: ^^^ Do you have any proven references on this? What is the origin of the Arabs, the people of Mohammed?
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo: I have an Egyptian friend (white) who told me that Bilal was Black. He told me that the Arabians were black. My Somali friend told me the same thing. He told me that the indigenous population of Arabia was black and his great-grandfather came from Saudi Arabia and he was a very black man.
Bilal may gave been black, and he may have been set free. But the Prophet did not go on to free thousands of his other black brothers. Their lot was to keep getting enslaved and dying under the brutal Arab slave regime. Indeed, as a prosperous merchant, Mohammed himself must have traded in black bodies.
He also said that dreams of black women were an evil omen, a foreshadowing of disease. Contrast with Moses, who did not run black women down, but actually married one.
All was not hunky-dory when the black man Bilal issued his call to prayer. Indeed one PRO Islamic website tells a different story. When the black man tried to do his job, a lot of his Arab "brothers" apparently tried to stab him in the back. Maybe they felt he was "too black".
But some Muslims could not bear to accept Bilal as a rightful Muezzin because he was black- skinned, and when they heard him call—which was often—they even prayed that they could die, so as not to have to hear the Ethiopian’s voice (Azan) ever again.
Hardly a ringing endorsement of "brotherhood" among contemporaries of the Prophet.
Generous as Mohamed is claimed to be, Mecca still remained a major slave trading center in black flesh, and millions of blacks still made the dismal trek to Islamic lands, with few surviving, necessitating constant replenishment. And the notion of "kindler, gentler" Islamic slavery and blacks is a hollow myth. One of the biggest black slave rebellions of all time was against Arab oppressors, the Zanj rebellion in Iraq, circa 869, where thousands of black slaves beaten down in the malarial salt marshes of Iraq by their Arab "brothers", struck for freedom.
Blacks did however find suitable employment in Mohammed's Mecca. The black saggas, or slave men, are reported in olden times to be of use in providing mineral water to city residents at dusk during Ramadan.
And yet, black folk are urged by Arab Muslims to make pilgrimages and worship at the grave of a Caucasian slave-trader, whose people devastated black Kemet.. [/QB]
If you think I care about some fvcking Arab you are heavily mistaken. My source comes from the bible and Mohammed has nothing to do with the Arabian nation. I know that Arabs (Indigenous) traded slaves and labor. Everyone did that. Africans did it too. It was the norm and the Africans and other black people liked it because they saw it as normal. Mohammed certainly wasn't white. Just because he was cruel to blacks doesn't mean he wasn't black. No group or people have been more cruel to black people than black people themselves. At least the Arabs gave these lowly people work; the Africans would have sacrificed them. You tell me who is more cruel. What these white "Arabs" did to blacks in the Middle East is no differently than what Africans themselves do to warring tribes in Africa.
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