posted
Note: talking about origins before 16th century
I could be wrong but is there any evidence that there were enough black slaves in the "Muslim world" (before recent times) that blackness in particular should be associated with slavery? Was the Swahili Coast an important place for slaves (before modern times) because the Saharan trade seems to have been more a bigger source. Hostile writings are particularly harsh against Zanj but why would feelings remain that way centuries after the Zanj revolt?
I have a theory associating "Negro" ethnicities with slavery might have been propaganda by Muslim governments to encourage people to feel safe using black slaves for hard labor (fear of revolts). Black slaves as will as others underwent the most grusome slavery but such an enormous amount came from places other than Sub-Saharan Africa but many writers seem to want to paint "blacks" in particular as slaves. maybe people were purchasing "non-black" slaves even in instances that they would have been cheaper from south of the Sahara out of fear that a large concentration of angry "blacks" was dangerous (since the Zanj rebellion).
Another possibility is simply a selective reading and mistranslation of what scholars wrote. Perhaps it was just a stereotype and didn't reflect reality. Maybe black slaves really were more numerous and/or forced to do more brutal work than other slaves
Another reason was possibly to curb the influence "blacks" may have been gaining. "Black" slaves were actually seen as intelligent and trustworthy in business affairs (see end of post)
That would explain why Ibn Khaldun wrote the bellow if we see it as just propaganda
quote: Therefore, the Negro nations are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because (Negroes) have little (that is essentially) human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated.
Or, there are those who by accepting slavery hope to obtain high rank or to get money or power. This was the case with the Turks in the East, and with the Galician infidels and European Christians in Spain. Such people are customarily claimed by the dynasty for itself. Thus, they are not ashamed to be slaves, because they hope to be chosen for high position by the dynasty. And God knows better.
It should be noted that he wants to stress that Arabs are savages and also at the level of dumb animals even more.
quote:As a result, they are the most savage human beings that exist. Compared with sedentary people, they are on a level with wild, untamable (animals) and dumb beasts of prey. Such people are the Arabs. In the West, the nomadic Berbers and the Zanatah are their counterparts, and in the East, the Kurds, the Turkomans, and the Turks. The Arabs, however, make deeper excursions into the desert and are more rooted in desert life (than the other groups)
quote:The reason for this is that (the Arabs) are a savage nation, fully accustomed to savagery and the things that cause it. Savagery has become their character and nature. They enjoy it, because it means freedom from authority and no subservience to leadership. Such a natural disposition is the negation and antithesis of civilization. All the customary activities of the Arabs lead to travel and movement. This is the antithesis and negation of stationariness, which produces civilization. For instance, the Arabs need stones to set them up as supports for their cooking pots. So, they take them from buildings which they tear down to get the stones, and use them for that purpose. Wood, too, is needed by them for props for their tents and for use as tent poles for their dwellings. So, they tear down roofs to get the wood for that purpose. The very nature of their existence is the negation of building, which is the basis of civilization. This is the case with them quite generally.
The difference between this and modern racism is that in modern racism Hamites (Arabs) are seen as more intelligent than "blacks" but less intelligent than Europeans but in Ibn Khaldun Arabs and blacks are equally unintelligent just one is savage and destructive and the other docile and meek.
Keep in mind the scholar Ibn Khaldun is often cited as the typical racist Arab but he is also considered the most important "Arab" writer on Mali.
For example this article says
quote:The early history of the Mali empire is known to us from two sources Mande oral literature (epic and praise poetry) recorded over the last 100 years and Ihn Khaldun's Kitab al-clbar (Book of Exemplars) ...
For scholars attempting to reconstruct an account of this West African empire, no other medieval Arab chronicler or, indeed, any Mande oral traditions provide comparable information for its formative period
The article is about whither he twisted his chronology of Mali Rulers to fit his theories on the prestige of dynasties lasting four generations
Going back in time the reality of the Arab conquests seems to be the opposite of the stereotype of dark skinned sedentary farmers and fair skinned nomad conquerers
Racism against "blacks" evolved from a preexisting racism against pale skin?
quote: Al Dhahabi says "Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying '... (He was) a red man as if he is one of the slaves'. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome, and Persia". So it must be understood that what people call "white" today was called "red" by the Arabs of the past.
The bellow accounts of black slaves seem to have credibility because they are 1,000 years apart but paint almost the same picture of black slaves in the Muslim world. It would seem that the wealthy only trusted "blacks" to do be in certain positions of high status.
According to Jahiz :
quote:The Zanj also say : Among our good qualities are our good singers. As you can find among the slave girls from Sind. Also nobody is a better cook then the black slaves from Sind. Also moneychangers will never entrust their money then to those from Sind or their descendents as they are found to be better in those affairs, more alert and worthy of thrusting . One hardly ever finds a Greek or a Khorassan in a position of trust in a bank. When the bankers of Basra saw the excellent affairs that Faraj Abu Kub, a Sindi, had negotiated for his master, each of them took a Sindi assistant. They all wanted to make the profit his master had made. Caliph Sultan Abdelmalik ibn Mcrwan often said, "El Adgham is a master among all the Orientals." This El Adgham is also mentioned by Abdullar ibn Khnazim, who calls him, "An Ethiopian, a black son of Ethiopia.
quote: “Listen to one guarantee for all, our own incomparable Niebuhr ‘The Principal characteristic of the Negro is, especially when he is reasonably treated, honesty towards his masters and benefactors. Mohammedan merchants in Cairo, Jeddab, Surat, and other cities, are glad to buy boys of this kind; they have them taught writing and arithmetic, carry on their extensive business almost entirely through negro slaves, and send them to establish business places in foreign countries. I asked one of the merchants, how he could trust a slave with whole cargoes of good and was told in reply, “My Negro is true to me; but if I were to conduct my business entirely by white men, I should have to take care that they did not run off with my property.”
In "Islam's Black Slaves" page 122-123 quote from the British embassy to Iran in 1850:
quote: They (black slaves) are highly esteemed as being mild, faithful, brave and intelligent, and are generally confidential servants in Persian households...
They are not treated with contempt as in America; there are no special laws to hold them in a state of degradation; they are frequently restored to freedom, and when this happens, they take their station in society without any reference to their colour or descent.
She emphases that Ethiopians and Nubians were especially well treated. She also said they were never used as field labor (this is in Persia)
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Within Islam initially slavery as an institution had no color line and EVERYONE could be and were enslaved. Keep in mind that the word slave comes from Slav and reflects predominance of Slavic peoples as slaves in both Islamic and non Islamic countries.
The issues of the association with black skin and slavery is certainly an issue of propaganda. But the issue isn't that blacks were the only ones who were taken as slaves, it is that blacks have not been able to defend themselves from coordinated assaults against their livelihoods and prosperity as a people. Such an inability to defend oneself against such assaults only ensures more assaults, which are all reinforced by some nationalist, ethnic or racial propaganda of some sort. The fundamental answer is to develop a credible defense against such assaults, which in turn will engender the respect for ones identity that one desires.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The issues of the association with black skin and slavery is certainly an issue of propaganda. But the issue isn't that blacks were the only ones who were taken as slaves, it is that blacks have not been able to defend themselves from coordinated assaults against their livelihoods and prosperity as a people.
I'll have to disagree on that. (Just focusing on before the 16th century) What do you think about the information presented in the bellow:
"The Nubian Damn"
Author talks about how the Arabs were abruptly halted from invading south of Egypt while they continued their efforts on the other fronts (They were unable to invade the Sudan, at least for a few centuries)
Talks about how west Africa was on the same military level until the end of the 16th century
quote: The other reason was that the Arab traders were without the protection provided by their own civilization, while staying in sub-Saharan Africa. Before the wider introduction of firearms in the 16th century, the Arab rulers of Northern Africa had no real possibilities to threaten their West African counterparts with war, as there were no such differences between the military technology which guaranteed them any absolute superiority. Furthermore, the West African armies were very large, although the claims in Arabic sources, such as the ruler of Ghana having an army of 200,000 warriors, are certainly exaggerating. Yet, in any case, we can speak of tens of thousands. To send an army of an equal size across the Sahara was extremely hazardous, and the success of the Moroccan invasion in Timbuktu in 1591 is rather an exception which reinforces the general rule: the ruler of Songhay empire considered it unnecessary to poison the wells in the desert or to organize any effective counter-attack, because he was convinced that the Moroccans would perish in the desert anyway. In fact, Judar Pasha did lose a great deal of his men during the deathly march across the western Sahara. Besides the desert, another natural advantage which protected the West Africans, was the unhealthy environment. Most parts of the savanna are infected by trypanosomiasis, which is lethal especially for quadrupeds, thus preventing the large scale use of cavalry forces in this area.
quote:Markellion wrote: I could be wrong but is there any evidence that there were enough black slaves in the "Muslim world" (before recent times) that blackness in particular should be associated with slavery? Was the Swahili Coast an important place for slaves (before modern times) because the Saharan trade seems to have been more a bigger source. Hostile writings are particularly harsh against Zanj but why would feelings remain that way centuries after the Zanj revolt?
The Zanji revolt happened in the 7th century in Basra, but most of the slaves from swahili coast came to the islamic world during the last 2-8 hundred years, the zanzibar sultans continued selling swahili slaves as recent as the 19th-20th century. Majority of somali-bantu are actually brought to southern somalia by these Zanzibar and Omani slavers, they shiped them throughout all the muslim world non-stop for almost a millenia. Another reason Zanji are mostly associated with slavery is because of stalement, most slaves in the muslims world rose to great powers eventually, like the Caucasus Slaves the Mamluks who later controlled Egypt or the turkic slaves that later ruled their masters. The habesh slaves likewise came to great powers like Abu al-Misk kafur who ruled both Egypt and Syria until his death or Malik Amber who ruled muslim India untill his death. But all the Zanji just remained slaves forever untill their masters got tired of them which caused resentment and ultimately resulted with all these harsh words from islamic writers.
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^ You mean like when Somali slaves of Italians who never turned Somalia into a great power even after their Italian masters got rid of them by going back to Italy. Thus making Somalia the prime example of the ravages/effects of white slavery/colonialism.
Your efforts to make a distinction between your people and the Zanji are irrational Yonis.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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So what's your input on this topic akoben? I'm not in the mood to engage in one of your useless never ending bitch fights, i'm sure if you try a bit you could be productive for once, or else go chase someone's else dick to ride coz this one ain't made for you.
Either Post something worthful or go crawl somewhere else you little crooked eye internet slut.
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You people realize that the sultans of Zanzibar are Zanj that made up stories about Arab ancestors right?
According to our expert, Ibn Khaldun, all the ethnicities of Negro are inferior including Ethiopians:
quote: We have seen that Negroes are in general characterized by levity, excitability and great emotionalism. They are found eager to dance whenever they hear a melody. They are everywhere described as stupid.
Masoudi took it upon him to look for the cause that produces by the Negroes that light handedness, the constant pleasure they radiate, but for all solutions there is only a word from Galen and Al-Kendi after whom their character goes towards a feeble brain, from where comes feeble intelligence. Their words do not prove anything and are without value.
The black nations are as a rule, submissive to slavery, because ( blacks) have little (that is essentially) human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated.
Nubians, Zanj and Ethiopians are brothers:
quote: The blacks are made up from different races, people and different tribes. In the east, the best known are the Zanj, the Abyssins and the Nubians, As to the western ones, we will talk about them after the general genealogy of the blacks. The blacks are descendants of Cham, son of Noah, The Abyssins come from Habash, son of Kush, son of Cham; The Nubians, the Nuba son of Kush, son of Canaan, son of Cham, according to al-Masudi, or from Nub, son of Qut, son of Micr, son of Cham, according to Abd al-Barr; The Zanj, from Zanji, son of Kush. All other blacks descent according to Ibn Abd al-Barr, of Qut, son of Cham, or according to an other opinion, from Qubt, son of Cham. Ibn Said lists 17 nations of black tribes. In the east, on the Indian Sea, one finds the Zanj, who have a town called Munbaca. They are idolaters. A certain amount of slaves taken from their country had rebelled against there masters in Basra and followed a Shiite predication under the reign of the caliph al-Mutamid. Besides them one finds the Barbara, of which the poet Imru'u-l-Qays speaks in his verses. Islam is nowadays very extended among them. They have a town on the Indian ocean called Mogadishu, which is often visited by Muslim merchants. In the south east of those people one finds the Demadim, who are naked and without shoes. They invade Abyssinia and Nudia, says Ibn Said, in the days that the Tartars enter Iraq. After having devastated this country they returned home....
Further away there are the Nubians, brothers of the Zanj and the Abyssins. They owe on the left side of the Nil river the town of Dongola.....
According to our expert, Ibn Khaldun, all the ethnicities of Negro are inferior including Ethiopians:
Hey Markellion. Not trying to be trivial but this is incorrect. Given Ibn Khaldun's stereotypes he was actually conflicted in the case of civilizations like Ethiopia (and Mali). He stated specifically in his book, "The Muqaddimah that Mali and Ethiopia were NOT inferior or savage due to their embrace of religious philosophy, and namely Islam in the case of the Malians. This was his argument, as fallacious as it was. Explanation was warranted because of his theory concerning a correlation between geography and civilization, asserting that Blacks were inferior due to their positioning within an unbalanced climate zone (basically it was too hot and fried their brains). You mentioned his disdain for Arabs, but he also attributed inferior intellect to Northern Europeans based on his climate theory (as it was too cold to stimulate their brains). The entire book can be accessed below:
Note: Ibn Khaldun is generally less reliable in his descriptions of various African societies as it is commonly known that a lot of his information was based on hearsay. Ibn Battuta remains the most accurate source on medieval African civilizations as he's the only one known to have traveled to and documented the cultures of both east and west Africa.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote: Given Ibn Khaldun's stereotypes he was actually conflicted in the case of civilizations like Ethiopia (and Mali)
Also in the article bellow he talked about Zanj both idol worshipers and Muslims who live in cities. He probably had the same opinion about all people that don't live in cities regardless of color
Man i must say you are quite annoying with your paternalistic comments that i've reaad so far, you sound like those pathetic rockstars who think by making useless concerts and posing infront of cameras with their silicon boobs towrds redicoulas international broadcasted events they can eradicate poverty from the world.
Why you always have to mention "civilization" or "slavery" in each other posts of yours? What is Zanzibar civilization? You think people are going to fight over it and defend it so to gain some low points in this modern age of racial aggrendization ? Seriously your not impressing anyone with your repetitive threads and posts, atleast not for now.
Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Trying to play his racial pseudo games so he can ease the pain of being a Somali. : )
Khat chewing suckers couldn't even stand up to the Ethiopians and Arabs who were selling them off to the highest bidders.
In 93 the men were hiding behind the skirts (literally, check the Rangers accounts of the battle) of the women when the U.S. Army Rangers took out at least a 1,000 of those roaches. After this example I don't even know if you could call them men. hahahahaahahahahahaahaaaarrrrrghahaha
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kids look and learn how the jamaican boy is defending his manhood..
Somalia might be **** for you, bit it means something to us,(even through these times of hardship) atleast we are not paraded through out the world as the poster boys of being eternal second fiddle. Jamaicans as a people only exist because of others decision, poor you.
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quote:argyle104 wrote: Trying to play his racial pseudo games so he can ease the pain of being a Somali. : )
Ease the pain?, LOL
Being born as a somali is something i always bless and thank my creator for every day. I could never imagine anything else, in particular not belonging to my clan. You would never know how it feels since you are what you are, only when you walk in my shoes would you really know how it feels. Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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A state can always be fixed but a broken identity confined to lowcast bastardization is eternal. Posts: 1554 | Registered: Jul 2006
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I know what you meant, though I reiterate that he did not attribute to them a low level of civilization. Your geocitities link lacks context and with that said, they still don't support your claim. You based that on your own deductive reasoning but such wasn't specified (that he felt "all Blacks were inferior, including Ethiopians").. Your link only has excerps from the book that I linked you to; you need to read the whole thing. I've summarized what his arguments were but of course I posted the source for you to get a better picture for you own research purposes. His ideas were misguided but they can be easily explained if you read everything that he wrote in context. Again, he ackowledged the civilizations of Mali and Ethiopia but attributed their accomplishments to religion. He needed to do that as their very accomplishments conflicted with his climactic Zone-theory of civilization. Fanciful but interesting stuff.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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It's funny Akoben how you criticized me long ago (and even recently) for doing the exact same thing you're doing right now concerning Somalia in response to the racialist rantings of the mentally submissive Yonis. Stop being a hypocrite. You too Yonis, you need to rid yourself of your prejudice. It isn't healthy.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Well, Zanzibar was ruled from Oman for some period prior to occupation by Britain. And the rulers from Oman were definitely mixing with their subjects in Zanzibar. Not only were some of the last rulers of Zanzibar black but so is the current Omani ruler, as there is a good amount of Zanj blood in Oman along with aboriginal South Arabian blood. And even beyond that, remember that many Arabs are basically mulattoes to a large degree to begin with, both because of their historical descent from South Arabia and because of the later mixtures produced by the women in harems with multiple backgrounds.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: It's funny Akoben how you criticized me long ago (and even recently) for doing the exact same thing you're doing right now concerning Somalia in response to the racialist rantings of the mentally submissive Yonis. Stop being a hypocrite. You too Yonis, you need to rid yourself of your prejudice. It isn't healthy.
Oh no child, I am pointing out the obvious (Somalia is a failed state and a poster child for such) while you were posting pictures of starving Somalis and making fun of them. I nothing like you Captain American.
By the way, hows your new president?
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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What I meant was he talked about Zanj towns so what applies for Zanj probably is the same for Ethiopians (as a race not an empire)
I made that generalization to point out Zanj aren't necessarily seen differently as the other groups. I know he made a generalization about Arabs being savages but he was talking about nomadic people.
What he thought about the empires of Mali and Ethiopia did he think the same about "civilized" Zanj? Which chapter do I need to look at
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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The Key to understanding Zanzibar starts not with the Arabs but starts with the civilization that predated it, which was WHOLLY African. That civilization was Monempotapa and was part of a larger complex of city states and regions throughout southern and Eastern Africa. The main trade of Monompotapa was gold and that gold trade made it famous throughout the east and led to many trading ports on the coast of East Africa being developed.
quote: Travelers and merchants from the Persian Gulf and Western India have visited the East African coast since early in the first millennium CE, and especially the towns that arose all along the coasts of Kenya and Tanzania late in the millennium. But, contrary to conventional interpretations, scholars no longer believe that Arabs or Persians were significant in founding the towns. Remains of those towns' material culture demonstrate that they arose from indigenous roots, not from foreign settlement. And the language that was spoken in them, Swahili (now Tanzania's national language), is a member of the Bantu language family that spread from the northern Kenya coast well before significant Arab presence was felt in the region. By the beginning of the second millennium CE the Swahili towns conducted a thriving trade that linked Africans in the interior with trade partners throughout the Indian Ocean. From c. 1200 to 1500 CE, the town of Kilwa, on Tanzania's southern coast, was perhaps the wealthiest and most powerful of these towns, presiding over what some scholars consider the "golden age" of Swahili civilization. In the early 1300s Ibn Battuta, a Berber traveler from North Africa, visited Kilwa and proclaimed it one of the best cities in the world. Islam was practiced on the Swahili coast as early as the eighth or ninth century CE.[4]
It was the Portuguese who destroyed the city states and civilizations of the East African coast and are partly responsible for the fall of Monompotapa itself. The accounts of this destruction feature a wanton bloodlust on the part of the Portuguese in destroying anything and everything they saw, yet the Africans kept rebuilding, but the Portuguese kept destroying. The Arabs who came in initially assisted the Africans in pushing out the Portuguese, but then, just as elsewhere in Africa, they turned on the Africans.
Unfortunately the historical accounts of Monompotapa written by various historians are purposely kept out of the hands of Africans because they know full well that just like elsewhere in Africa, it was the stories of gold from Monompotapa that attracted the Europeans. And the Europeans basically established their mines on top of the mines already dug by the Africans. But of course the Europeans have to make pretend that Africans never had any mines so they can claim they INTRODUCED civilization to Africa and therefore Africans should be grateful. Of course they wont tell you about the mines that they uncovered dating back thousands of years as they excavated new ones, these mines being the oldest in the world. And of course they wont tell you about the evidence of Africans using these stones for various purposes over thousands of years either. And I mean many thousands. The oldest mine ever discovered in Africa is at least 60,000 years old and was used to extract red ochre for body painting, basically the origin of the modern cosmetics industry.
Of course whites took these facts, twisted them and made up all sorts of fanciful stories claiming that these mines were the lost mines of King Solomon or part of some ancient bible Empire to lure colonists to Africa and take the resources. The dates were changed and made more recent and artifacts and evidence of civilization purposely hidden to support the process of colonization. The stuff that is currently being revealed about the age of artifacts and civilization in Southern Africa is only the tip of the iceberg and the same is true all across Africa.
Himba lady making deodorant:
Caption:
quote: Himba lady preparing deodorant. She uses smoke from smouldering specific herbs, plants and aromatic resins to cleanse and perfume herself. This scene was taken inside her hut, in a village about 15 km north of Opuwo, Namibia.
Not to mention the facial cremes and masks worn by certain women in Eastern Africa that they make fresh themselves. I forget where in East Africa but I will try and find it.
But suffice to say this is why so many of the ingredients for the cosmetics industry originate in Africa after being discovered and used there by the Africans for thousands of years including soap and deodorant. Examples: Shea Butter, Ylang Ylang, Aloe Vera and so on.
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quote:Originally posted by akoben: Oh no child, I am pointing out the obvious (Somalia is a failed state and a poster child for such) while you were posting pictures of starving Somalis and making fun of them. I nothing like you Captain American.
Whatever..
quote:By the way, hows your new president? [/QB]
He's doing a great job actually and I'm jubilant becuase of it. This election only reinforces my "captain Americaness", so to speak. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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What he thought about the empires of Mali and Ethiopia did he think the same about "civilized" Zanj? Which chapter do I need to look at [/QB]
No, he didn't think the same about the Zanj from what I remember and I believe that the information discussed can be found in the first chapter, 2nd discussion, and continues on from there, though I'm relaying this information to you from my own recall so I can't point out the exact paragraph/s and I don't have time to skim through it right now. I've edited the wikipedia page on Ibn Khaldun some time ago and used that webpage as one of my primary sources so I'm well aquainted with it. I know you'll find it a good read anyhow until you find the relavent information.
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