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Author Topic: More proof of "black" Moors
nomorelies
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"Zwarte Piet" is the Moorish black helper of the original Sinter Klaas (Santa Claus) in the Netherlands. He is depicted as a black moor who will put all the naughty kids in his sack and take them back to Spain...

 -

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People in this part of europe, as you can see, still dress up in this fashion and celebrate this to this day.

"Krampus" was also earlier depicted as a black Satan who was captured by Sinter Klaas and deemed to be his helper, with much of the same atributes Zwarte Piet...

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Merry Christmas!!!

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Doug M
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Such traditions also appear in Persian Christmas tales as well, even though the black face is tied to either an ancient Persian or Egyptian captured in battle:

quote:

Hâjji Fîrûz or Hajji Piruz, is the traditional herald of Nowruz. He is a black-faced character clad in bright red clothes and a felt hat. While ushering in Nowruz, Hajji Firuz plays a tambourine and sings "Haji Firuz eh, sali ye ruz eh" (It is Haji Firuz time, It happens one day in a year). People of all ages gather around him and his troupe of musicians and listen to them play the drum, saz or kamancheh, and dance.

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From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajji_Firuz

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Explorador
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Oh no, not examples of those "Othelloisque" caricatures [think Othello 1965 for example].

--------------------
The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat

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markellion
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Last paragraph on page 117 the king of Benin is called a black Moor...

http://books.google.com/books?id=BuGtjjQhA8sC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA117#PPA117

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alTakruri
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The Bini were neither Moorish nor Muslim. This is
an instance of black Moor/blackamoor equating to
'negro.'

Remember parlance of the time designated tawny moors
and blackamoors for lack of better descriptors for those
whom Euros considered north, west, and central Africans.

An interesting article on the concept of Moor is
Shakespeare’s Moor:
The Sources and Representations

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Doug M
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Moor is a word that has had various meanings at various times in various contexts in Europe. Sometimes it simply meant the black African Muslim invaders of Spain and Southern Europe, any Muslim from North Africa or black Africans from North and West Africa in general. In the Shakespearean context it definitely was a description of the latter.
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argyle104
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Doug M wrote:
-------------------------------
black Africans from....<sentence snipped>....West Africa
-------------------------------


A "black" African from "west" Africa?

People this is why you need to avoid the obsession with color that She-Male Jenkins aka Doug has.

I don't like using color as a descriptive, but in this case to illustrate a point I will.


Doug you say that there are "black" Africans in "west" Africa. Since you believe this, what other kinds of Africans are in "west" Africa? You must think there are more than one kind since you specifically qualified "black" Africans in a way that either seperates them from the other Africans or makes them outsiders in so called "west" Africa.


If you don't believe "black" Africans are outsiders or are a serperate group, then why didn't you just say Africans? Why did you have to add "black" as a qualifier?

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dana marniche
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The term blackaMoor was used for Europeans like haydn and Alexander de Medici who are both shown as dark brown in color in some early European portrayls. The word blackaMoor thus didn't necessarily anything but black as a Moor. Thus an early European of the midieval period quoted by J. A. Rogers wrote. Though the "men of Nubia be Christian, they be as the Moors for the great heat of the sun." The name black Moor would have been redundant as saying black Negro.

--------------------
D. Reynolds-Marniche

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by argyle104:

A "black" African from "west" Africa?

People this is why you need to avoid the obsession with color that She-Male Jenkins aka Doug has.

I don't like using color as a descriptive, but in this case to illustrate a point I will.


Doug you say that there are "black" Africans in "west" Africa. Since you believe this, what other kinds of Africans are in "west" Africa? You must think there are more than one kind since you specifically qualified "black" Africans in a way that either seperates them from the other Africans or makes them outsiders in so called "west" Africa.


If you don't believe "black" Africans are outsiders or are a serperate group, then why didn't you just say Africans? Why did you have to add "black" as a qualifier?

Silly you and your asinine interjections. The term Moor itself is a reference to black Africans as outsiders in Europe. The point is that as Europeans expanded their interactions with various parts of Africa, they expanded the use of the term over time to refer to various peoples in various contexts including non Black Muslim Africans as well as African Muslims from farther South. This is another example of Europeans making up terms to apply to peoples that did not use such terms for themselves, but now those terms get applied as a pejorative reference to the people in question. The term is not intended as a perfectly accurate ethnic or cultural reference as it is purely a foreign label made up by people who knew nothing about these people. The word Moor is both a romantic and demonic icon in European literary and artistic history and therefore has to be seen as such. Therefore, black Moors like Othello are eponymous black Africans, not Muslims, not North Africans but any black African, whereas other "Moors" are references to specific historical figures and populations that may or may not have all been black.

Only you would ask a dumb question like that. Why don't you go ask why Europeans are called white? Does that mean there are Europeans who aren't white?

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sportbilly
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This blackface **** pisses me off no end.
But it seems the Somalians in the Netherlands aren't taking this lying down. They've decided that if the good white folks are determined to attack their dignity then two can play that game.

 -

I wouldn't give a **** if every pale facd cunt in the Netherlands wound up like this.
And the women too! [Big Grin]

If ever a group of bastards deserved to be beaten unmercifully, raped repeatedly and then kicked half to death these fuckers do.
I wouldn't mind if somebody fed these cocksuckers into a woodchipper...FEET FIRST!

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sportbilly
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I saw a video about this on YouTube, and these turds actually tried to say that there was nothing racial about this sh*T.
They said Pete's face was black because he slid down the chimney for Santa. That "revision" of the Zwarte Piet mythos only came about the last 90 years or so.

Damn, I wish these f8ckers would step foot outside the Netherlands. So we can kil-- er, let them know how displease we are with their "tradition" and have a few kind words over a nice cup of cappuccino.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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There is no proof of black moors. Obviously there were a few backs with the arab armies that invaded Europe but the key word is 'few.'

Sportsbilly, What are these people doing in the Netherlands in the first place? They need to go home and try to build their own country. The cultures are not going to mix in the end.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

There is no proof of black moors. Obviously there were a few blacks with the arab armies that invaded Europe but the key word is 'few.'

LMAO You speak of "no proof" when not only do we have this tid-bit thread here but numerous more significant threads on the topic that YOU yourself have been exposed to, more recently these two below:

THE MOORS IN EUROPEAN ART

and...

Were the Moors black?

Or perhaps you are again suffering from those lapses of memory, 'professor'...

You say that the Muslim armies that invaded Europe consisted of only a "few blacks" with the majority being Arab. Yet where did these invaders enter Europe from?? Why from Africa, specifically Northwest Africa in which they crossed the Gibralter Straits into Iberia. It's been explained to you ad-naseum that 'Arabs' proper as colonists in North Africa were the ones who were a minority with native (black) Africans being the majority. Unless of course you want to go your usual (ridiculous) route of indigenous North African 'cacasians'. If so, then again please explain the relevant info below regarding the Moors and their identity that I posed to you many times before:

the etymology of the word 'moor'

the actual Islamic dysnasties that controlled Spain:

Almoravid

and

Almohad

quote:
Sportsbilly, What are these people doing in the Netherlands in the first place? They need to go home and try to build their own country. The cultures are not going to mix in the end.
Judging from Sporsbilly's hatefilled comments, he obviously has some issues of his own with the native Dutch and other Europeans, but perhaps he and the African immigrants are merely reacting to zenophobic as well as racist hatred casually spouted out by individuals like yourself. I'm sure if these immigrants came from poverty stricken nations of say Eastern Europe, you wouldn't say the same thing would you professor. Why is that, I wonder?.. [Embarrassed]
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BrandonP
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To be honest, I have to express some doubt that the Moors were all black. If that was true, why'd they depict themselves like this?

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It's from "Qissat Bayad wa Riyad".

--------------------
Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher

My art thread on ES

And my books thread

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Djehuti
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^ Again, there seems to be a confusion between Moor and Saracen. The above is an example of Saracen art. Saracens were the non-black Muslims of North Africa and especially the 'Near East', they were contemporaries of the Moors.

Look up Hadith Bayad wa Riyad, and more importantly look up where that manuscript originated. Is it a manuscript from Africa or elsewhere?..

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Djehuti, you make some good points. I am not a person who believes that multiculturalism is a good thing, especially in Europe. The United States is a little different in that we have more of a melting pot tradition. Newcomers here eventually get sucked into something clase to the mainstream culture. Europe lacks that tradition. Multiculturalism will not work in many areas of the world. You are seeing the beinnings of a backlash in Europe. As long as there is reasonable prosperity things will probably be ok but a global economic dislocation could bring disaster for the European immigrants. I would not want to be an ethnic minority in Europe......ask the jews about that.
Things can change rapidly in the world.

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markellion
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About the skin color of Arabs

quote:

White أبيض



One of these misunderstood terms is the term "white" ابيض . Most people think that when the Arabs of the past described a person's complexion as "white", they meant the same light complexion that is meant today. This isn't true at all. When the Arabs described a person as "white", they actually meant a dark complexion. Ibn Mandour, the well-known Arab linguist who was born in the 13th century AD and the author of the famous book on the Arabic language Lisan Al Arab, quotes from another famous book on the Arabic language called Al Tahdheeb the following:



"When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he has a pure, clean, faultless integrity...They don't mean that he has white skin, but they mean to speak well of his honor and the purity of his integrity. When they say that a person has a white face, they mean that his complexion is free from blotches and a blackness that is unattractive"...

Ibn Mandour says that the expression The Red People applies to the non-Arabs because of their whiteness and because of the fact that most of them are fair-skinned.


http://savethetruearabs.com/gpage2.html
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akoben
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Again, there seems to be a confusion between Moor and Saracen. The above is an example of Saracen art. Saracens were the non-black Muslims of North Africa and especially the 'Near East', they were contemporaries of the Moors.

I see Mary giving misleading information as usual. Saracens were not connected to any race.
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-Just Call Me Jari-
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You guys act like you are illiterate. You have been on E.S for how long and still make dumb comments like.."All the Moors were not black"...and then think of yourselves as scholars when this subject has been explained to hell and back.

First off the term Moor is just a blanket term to describe the various Muslim dynasties and armies that invaded and ruled over Al Andalucia. The word Moor however goes back to descrbe groups of West and North Africans that were obviously black.

The Moors that invaded in 711 were of different stock than the Moors that invaded with Abd Rahman and that Invaded with the Almohads and that invaded with the Almoravids....as were the Moors of the Tafia periods were of different ethnic stock....as well as the Moors of the Nasird rule in the Alhambra palace.

The Moors represent a wide range of people from native Muslims Iberians to North Africans to Egyptians, Arabs, Jews etc. that came to Al Andalucia from all over the Muslim world.

Where has anyone on E.S said the Moors were as a collective ALL BLACK. The point here is that quite a few....Hell MAJORITY of the Moors were Brown and Black Africans and that these were the Moors that left an impression on the Native European population.

I mean do you KNOW how many native Iberians converted to Islam and so became "Moors"....If you did why would you post that picture of obviously native Iberian Muslims that do not represent the Moors that invaded Iberia and created Al Andalucia.
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This would be an accurate representation of the Moors now add a couple of Native Iberians to the Mix and the whole picture changes.

American Patriot, Explain how the Arabs were involved in SO MANY of the Muslims Armies and ruling class...Explain how the the Almoravids were of Arab stock when the originated from around Senegal, West Africa...Explain how the Almohads were Arabs when they originated from the Atlas Mts. around Morrocco and Maritania where Majority of black Africans still live....

Explain the role of the "Black Guards" and the large Black Armies that Abd Rahman used to gain control of Al Andalucia...Explain why so many Moors of Andalucia came to live and settle in places like Ghana...are you saying no Ghanians did'nt convert to Islam and go to Andalucia to live...

You are a moron, Its hard to believe you are a professor...a person that claims to be intellectual...

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-Just Call Me Jari-
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quote:
Originally posted by akoben:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Again, there seems to be a confusion between Moor and Saracen. The above is an example of Saracen art. Saracens were the non-black Muslims of North Africa and especially the 'Near East', they were contemporaries of the Moors.

I see Mary giving misleading information as usual. Saracens were not connected to any race.
To me the people in the picture represent the Muwalladun Moors....
The paintings in the Hall of Kings obviously represent Europeans..
http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/index.php/Gallery/776+M5d637b1e38d/0/

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Sundjata
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Snowden's writings may be noteworthy concerning his take on greek and greco-roman descriptions. What do you guys take of the color scheme attributed to Marcus Manilius (per Frank Snowden, "Egypt in Africa", 1996) claiming the 'Aethiopians' to be the most sun burnt, followed by Indians, then Egyptians, and THEN "moors", who were described as the lightest?

.......

^^Not sure about the "moors" being the lightest, depending on whatever collective entity he may have been referring to, but other than that it simply sounds to me that he's describing a natural cline of indigenous African variation. "Aethiopians" obviously referring to the darkest of the southern Sudanese. Snowden also references Philostratus as alluding to a gradient of color seen among inhabitants on the border of Egypt that's intermediate between Egyptians and "Aethiopians". Of course without the natural response of interpreting this as a subtle nuance in skin complexion he interprets it as a "mixture" of different races. All the while extrapolating his concept of "moor" to all those who fit within the lighter range on the color scheme.

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Explorador
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Where can I get a primary "Moorish"-Iberian era European text that references non-mainland African groups as "Moors"?
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markellion
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"Following certain sayings there are in the land of the Zendjs cold regions, in which white Zendjs live."

-Ibn-Hawqal

http://www.geocities.com/pieterderideaux/hawqal.html

quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:
^^Not sure about the "moors" being the lightest, depending on whatever collective entity he may have been referring to, but other than that it simply sounds to me that he's describing a natural cline of indigenous African variation. "Aethiopians" obviously referring to the darkest of the southern Sudanese. Snowden also references Philostratus as alluding to a gradient of color seen among inhabitants on the border of Egypt that's intermediate between Egyptians and "Aethiopians". Of course without the natural response of interpreting this as a subtle nuance in skin complexion he interprets it as a "mixture" of different races. All the while extrapolating his concept of "moor" to all those who fit within the lighter range on the color scheme.


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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by T. Rex:
To be honest, I have to express some doubt that the Moors were all black. If that was true, why'd they depict themselves like this?

 -

It's from "Qissat Bayad wa Riyad".

This particular portrait is of a style that was quite common in the Islamic world from Persia into Central Asia and India. It is a result of strong Asian influence on the Islamic courts in Baghdad and Turkey. This is why it is hard to say whether or not it came from Islamic Spain.

The problem here is that the ACTUAL books with images from Islamic Spain do exist and they DO have blacks in them. However, most of these books are in private hands or are in rare collections and not often seen by the public.

Here are some other examples:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kamal-ud-din_Bihzad_001.jpg

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Twolovers.jpg

The image itself is from a book called the Maqamat and illustrated by someone named Hariri:

quote:

Al-Maqamat is the title of a book written by Abu Muhammad al Qasim ibn Ali al-Hariri (1054-1122) containing fifty relatively short stories (maquamat = "settings" or "sessions"), each one identified by the name of a city in the Muslim world of the time. The stories tell of actual adventures and especially the verbal pronouncements in verse or in prose of a roguish and peripatetic hero, Abu Zayd from Saruj, a town in northern Syria, as told by al-Harith, a sober and slightly gullible merchant travelling from place to place. Double and triple puns, unusual meanings of words and elaborate grammatical constructions are used to exhibit the astounding and sophisticated wealth of the Arabic language. The genre of the maqamat became an almost instant success because of the extraordinary quality of its writing. Dozens of manuscripts of Hariri's Maqamat have been preserved from his own time, including a probable autograph, and hundreds have remained from the thirteenth and later centuries. Nearly all of them were copied in the core areas of the Arabic-speaking world—Egypt, Syria, Iraq—where there lived and prospered the class of educated Arabs likely to enjoy reading this forbidding book and interested in acquiring, perhaps even in sponsoring, a luxury edition of a beloved work. Even though the text itself and the reasons for its success are hardly topics for illustrations, thirteen of these manuscripts are known to have been provided with images inspired by narrative episodes from individual stories. Of these, six are from the thirteenth century, five are from the fourteenth, one is probably from the sixteenth or seventeenth century, and one is dated in the early eighteenth, even though one of its miniatures appears to be much earlier. Of all the manuscripts with pictures containing al-Hariri's great work, Paris BN ms. arabe 5847 towers above all others for the quality and variety of its illustrations. It was completed in C.E. 1237 (A.H. 634, in the month of ramadan) and, according to its colophon, was copied and illustrated by the same individual, Yahya ibn Mahmud ibn Yahya ibn Abi al-Hasan ibn Kuwwarih al-Wasiti, presumably originating from the city of al-Wasit. The manuscript survives with 99 miniatures. From the time they were first made known, in large surveys of the late nineteenth century, the miniatures from this manuscript were praised for their realism in depicting life.

From: http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/maq.html

Images:

 -
http://www.omifacsimiles.com/brochures/maq.html

Of course, given that the Syrians were also part of the Islamic presence in Spain, it makes sense that some would see this as "Moorish" art.

There are many versions of the Maqamat that have been produced and some versions have up to 99 images in all. Surely this is only a mere sample.

Another image from the "hour of birth"

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http://www.oberlin.edu/art/images/art109/art109.html

Other examples of Persian art and paintings from the Maqamat:
https://www.allposters.it/-st/Persian-School-Posters_c75036_p8_.htm

Full text of the Maqam:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/mhm/index.htm

Princeton Islamic manuscript collection:
http://www.celebratingresearch.org/libraries/princeton/islam~print.shtml

Other collections:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/csb/roundtable_islamicmss.htm

Here is an example of actual black soldiers in the service of the Sultan of Morocco from Tangiers:

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From: http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=697554&imageID=831133&total=1&num=0&word=Soldiers%20--%20Morocco%20--%20Tangier&s=3¬word=&d=&c=&f= 2&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=1&e=r

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Doug M
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More Moors:

Bey of Tripoli and a Moor
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http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=210404&imageID=1244173&word=moor&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&tot al=79&num=0&imgs=20&pNum=&pos=16

A Moor and a Moorish Woman:
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http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=210566&imageID=1257390&total=79&num=0&word=moor&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLev el=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=17&e=w

Moorish Women:
 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=666235&imageID=1267738&total=46&num=0&word=moorish&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&s Level=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=10&e=w

Moorish Chief and his wife:
 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=210570&imageID=1257393&word=moorish&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=& total=46&num=0&imgs=20&pNum=&pos=15

Moorish Man and Woman on the coast of Barbary (1735)
 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=210224&imageID=1247332&total=46&num=0&word=moorish&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&s Level=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=19&e=w

The Sultan of Morocco on his way to worship
 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=579939&imageID=1231450&total=106&num=0&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=& sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=3&e=w

 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=713019&imageID=814339&total=106&num=0&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&s Level=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=1&e=w

 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=466629&imageID=1184714&total=106&num=20&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope= &sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=32&e=w

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alTakruri
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No, all Moors were not black because later in time
the term loosened up and referred to various Muslims.

Thus we have:
* black-a-moor
* tawny moor
* white moor.
But take note from Black-a-Moor (black as a Moor)
that Moor must've originally designated a black
person.

While there are plenty a black-a-moor in Orientalist
art I haven't seen too many pieces of actual Islamic
art with any blacks in them. The stuff I've run across
is mostly like the below but I'm sure somebody can
find better pieces than this.

 -

quote:
Originally posted by T. Rex:
To be honest, I have to express some doubt that the Moors were all black. If that was true, why'd they depict themselves like this?

 -

It's from "Qissat Bayad wa Riyad".


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alTakruri
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Ah, I see the ImageMaster was working on it even
as I was composing a response to T. Rex's query.

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alTakruri
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Isn't it an Andalusian (i.e. Moorish 'Spain') work?


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Look up Hadith Bayad wa Riyad, and more importantly look up where
that manuscript originated. Is it a manuscript from Africa or elsewhere?..


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Doug M
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Yes it is. I actually made a mistake earlier.
But nevertheless there are other illuminated manuscripts (or fragments of such) from Moorish Spain, but they are definitely in collections that are not readily available to the public. Most of the reason for the lack of such manuscripts is because of the book burning campaigns of the Spanish Christians. However, many of these books were also kept in private collections secretly both for translations to Spanish and as treasure.

However, the manuscript is still the product of strong influence from the East:

quote:

The purpose of this work is to account for the subject matter of the Hadith Bayad manuscript in the Vatican Library (Arab. 368) . Special attention will be paid to the elements that were borrowed from the Mesopotamian school as well as the indigenous and local character of the manuscript.

There are doubts about the date and place of origin of this manuscript. Most scholars, however, agree that it is hispano-moresque . Richard Ettinghausen also supports the idea of its Spanish source owing to the sophistication of the miniatures. The manuscript was classified as Almohad in the exhibition “al Andalus” that was held in Granada and Washington in 1992. This assertion is based on the similarity of the script, both in layout and colour, with two manuscripts from al-Andalus , however none of them are illustrated. Oleg Grabar and Richard Ettinghausen attribute it with a Spanish origin because of the style of the architecture that is depicted in the miniatures.

There are also different opinions regarding the date of the manuscript. The Italian scholars Levi della Vida and Ugo Monneret de Villard date it from the fourteenth century, but more recent studies carried out by O.Grabar and R. Ettinghausen put its date at 1200; the same as the classification in al- Andalus, from the early thirteenth century.

The manuscript is extensively illustrated; fourteen of its miniatures have survived. In spite of having the beginning and end missing, not much of the story seems to be lost. For the present study eight illustrations have been available.

According to Ugo Monneret de Villard the manuscript probably arrived with other Arab manuscripts at the Vatican Library after 1535, as a consequence of the sacking of Tunis in 1535. An unfortunate restoration at the end of the seventeenth century damaged even more of the illustrations, for example the illustration in folio twenty nine reverse was completely covered with an inferior metal. The current threat to the illustrations however, is humidity.

THE STORY

No other copies of the manuscript have been found, although the title The Account of Bayad and Riyad occurs in an Istanbul manuscript containing stories on the order of the Arabian Nights.

The narrative takes place in Northern Mesopotamia. The hero, Bayad, is a young merchant who falls in love with a handmaiden of a noble lady, who is the daughter of a chamberlain named Riyad. There are many complications in the story because the chamberlain is also interested in Riyad. There is also the figure of a go-between who became adviser to Bayad. She plays an important role in the development and action of the story, exchanging messages, letters, arranging dates and so on. All this is the standard paraphernalia of courtly love.

Owing to the inaccessibility of other relevant documentary material about the story, the only sources to study the relationship between the text and the illustrations are the information available in al-Andalus and the translation of the paragraphs which accompany the illustrations.

Folio 10r. The go-between arranges for the two lovers to meet at a majlis ghima’ (get together) organized by the Lady of the palace, the daughter of al-Hajib; the lovers sing and play the lute, declaring their passion.

Folio 14r This upsets the Lady of the Palace who is apprehensive between the lovers that her father will find out about Bayad and Riyad. She orders that Riyad be kept in a separate house, where she is left alone to cry and pine. The name of Riyad is mentioned in the text twice. Two courtiers talk about the fate of the couple. Riyad listens with great attention. The rabbit, as a symbol of longevity, might anticipate the happy end of the story. In spite of the separation love will remain.

Folio 15r. The old lady reprimands the love sick Bayad

Folio 17r. Letters are exchanged

Folio 19r. Meanwhile, Bayad is seen wandering, talking to himself, and fainting. The text refers to the river Nahar al-Therthar whose water irrigates many orchards included the one in which the scene is set.

Folio 26v. The old woman arranges a reconciliation between Riyad and the Lady of the Palace who finally decides to bring Bayad and Riyad together, whatever the consequences. The text describes the way Riyad embellishes herself, she combs her hair, and wears her finest garments for her meeting with the lady of the palace. In the text the words ‘good news’ are also mentioned.

The story has a happy ending in which Bayad and Riyad can see each other again thanks to the tricks of the old woman. The illustrations are a fairly accurate representation of the text.

An open question is how popular the favorite Iraqi texts were in Spain (ej. The Maqamat, Kalila wa Dimma, the Dioscorides or the Automata). Since this manuscript is the only reproduction of the text that has survived, there is not enough evidence to tell whether the al-Andalus manuscript had copied other manuscripts from the east, or the artistic influences arrived in al-Andalus by other means such as pottery or textiles. This could also explain the depiction of Samarra figure types while the rest of the features belong to the Baghdad school of painting.

THE ILLUSTRATIONS

The illustrations will be analysed according to two different approaches; firstly the pictorical elements that have their origin in Mesopotamia, in the Samarra school of painting and the Baghdad school of painting. Secondly, the regional and local features in the illustrations.

2.1 Mesopotamian features in the manuscript

Ugo Monneret de Villard points out the similarities of the manuscript with Seljuq art in contrast with al-Gazirah art from Mawsil. An important difference in technique is the use of plain coloured paper for the background in the school of Baghdad, whereas in Gazirah art the background is painted in pale pink and occasionally blue. Our manuscript has plain colour in the background, the same as other manuscripts from the same period in the Baghdad school, eg. the Maqâmât of al-Harîrî in the Biblioteque Nationale in Paris

The treatment of space is the same as in the Baghdad school. The figures are depicted in one plane. They stand on the ground which is outlined by a green line of grass The same green line is outlined at the bottom of the folio in both Maqamat Hariri from the Biblioteque National and the Hariri in the Oriental Institute Academy of Science Leningrad. In the second manuscript the depiction of grass is more akin to the example we are analysing. The grass is formed with vertical lines and it appears even in the desert scenes. This indicates that it was a convention for the ground.

There is a lack of perspective, although some devices have been added to create depth; when there is a group, the figures overlap in order to create different planes. This can be illustrated with the following examples:

In folio 26v there are three false planes; the woman in the first plane stands on the grass, the woman who is kneeling on an architectural frame with one of her arms sunken into the grass in the second, and the tree behind her in the third.

In folio 19r, there are again different planes ; the water wheel in the first plane, and the figure of Biyad lying on the ground forming the second. The ‘scorzo’ of his hand and the lace from the turban create a spatial feeling

In folio fourteen reverse there is an attempt to create perspective. There are two planes depicted in this illustration, the upper part of the architecture, and the lower part where the stairs and the water basin are. Ugo Monneret de Villard thinks that this illustration is the only experiment to create a feeling of perspective with architecture in two planes. The position of the hands of the figures on the right below the arcade also contribute to creating a feeling of space. As in the Maqâmât, architectural features are used to set the scene (indoors, outdoors and the garden)

U.Monneret studies the way that the inside of buildings are represented; he concludes that the painter has taken the end elevations of buildings and turned them on their axes until they became one plane with their front elevations on the folio. The interior therefore is shown in orthogonal projection . This is the same convention for interior spaces as has been used by the Mesopotamian artists.

The figures are arranged in the same plane in most illustrations; accordingly isocephalic figures are especially remarkable when a large group is depicted; folio 10 r (Monneret de Villard), folio 10r.(R. Ettinghausen, 1977, p. 129). This has been classified by R. Ettinghausen as part of the Perso-Iraqi tradition.

From: http://www.funci.org/en/2009/articles/hadith-bayad-wa-riyad-manuscript/
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alTakruri
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For my use of Manilius see

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/sutra2803.php&highlight=manilius#2803
or
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005294;p=3#000112

where I give his order of the white world (ranked
from the lightest to the darkest) and his order of
the black world (ranked from the darkest to the lightest).

To show continuity in how Graeco-Romans divided their
whites and blacks I also posted Aeschylus from his
Suppliant Maidens where he uses the increduluos king
of the Argives to list the blacks (what was hard for
the king was realizing Argos was founded by blacks
because by his time the Argives were a white people).


quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:

Snowden's writings may be noteworthy concerning his take on greek and greco-roman descriptions.
What do you guys take of the color scheme attributed to Marcus Manilius (per Frank
Snowden, "Egypt in Africa", 1996) claiming the 'Aethiopians' to be the most sun burnt,
followed by Indians, then Egyptians, and THEN "moors", who were described as the lightest?


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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
No, all Moors were not black because later in time
the term loosened up and referred to various Muslims.

Thus we have:
* black-a-moor
* tawny moor
* white moor.
But take note from Black-a-Moor (black as a Moor)
that Moor must've originally designated a black
person.

While there are plenty a black-a-moor in Orientalist
art I haven't seen too many pieces of actual Islamic
art with any blacks in them. The stuff I've run across
is mostly like the below but I'm sure somebody can
find better pieces than this.

 -

quote:
Originally posted by T. Rex:
To be honest, I have to express some doubt that the Moors were all black. If that was true, why'd they depict themselves like this?

 -

It's from "Qissat Bayad wa Riyad".


Also it is important to note that the time period given for the creation of this document is during the Almoravid Dynasty. Therefore, such a manuscript, with its influence and similarity to eastern artistic trends and literary traditions, probably does not really depict "Moors" or more specifically Almoravids to any large degree. It was under the Almoravids that a large resurgence in literature and art occurred in Andalus, of which this document is quite likely part.

Another image from Morocco:

 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=801562&imageID=1573031&total=106&num=40&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope= &sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=41&e=w

 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=236702&imageID=415198&total=106&num=60&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=& sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=68&e=w#_seemore


 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=236704&imageID=415199&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&t otal=106&num=60&imgs=20&pNum=&pos=69

 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=236710&imageID=415202&total=106&num=60&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=& sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=72&e=w

 -
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=714854&imageID=831621&total=106&num=100&word=Morocco&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope= &sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=105&e=w

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TheAmericanPatriot
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You cannot use art images to establish historical fact. Even a highly trained specialist would have a difficult time doing that. None of these images is legitimate evidence to deal with the question being debated.
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alTakruri
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Yes Polly Parrot, you're absolutely right!

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

--------------------
Intellectual property of YYT al~Takruri © 2004 - 2017. All rights reserved.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:
You cannot use art images to establish historical fact. Even a highly trained specialist would have a difficult time doing that. None of these images is legitimate evidence to deal with the question being debated.

Yes scientists can and do use art to help determine historical fact all the time. While art alone cannot provide all the information needed to determine historical truth, it is an important source of evidence. Considering that most of these artistic images were done by Europeans who were documenting what they saw in North Africa, I would say that they are an important source of information about North Africa, but of course they do not give you everything. Such images have to be combined with other evidence in order to do that. But of course your whining has nothing to do with any concern for accuracy, you just can't stand the idea that blacks had anything to do with civilization or bringing civilization to Europe. While such images are not enough to give you a complete understanding of who the Moors were in Medieval Spain, they are quite enough to cease the stupid nonsense about blacks not being part of the history of North Africa as anything other than slaves.
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TheAmericanPatriot
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Boy we have some real scholars here. Blacks have zero role in the development of Europe Doug.....not a scrap. You are a racist bigot with zero academic ability who lives his entire life dedicated to promoting racist propaganda.

You want to tell us that the poorest, most backward section of the world is a pimary driver in the development of western civilization. To do this you will lie, distort, and warp facts while you insult hard working historians around the world.

The only thing worse than ignorance is ignorance combinde with arrogance.

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Sundjata
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^^All you do is complain. What's your purpose? You should take your vitriolic nonsense to a political forum or something; your agenda is not compatible with what folks do around here. We deal with facts and evidence, not racialist rants and constant whining.
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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
For my use of Manilius see

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/sutra2803.php&highlight=manilius#2803
or
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005294;p=3#000112

where I give his order of the white world (ranked
from the lightest to the darkest) and his order of
the black world (ranked from the darkest to the lightest).

To show continuity in how Graeco-Romans divided their
whites and blacks I also posted Aeschylus from his
Suppliant Maidens where he uses the increduluos king
of the Argives to list the blacks (what was hard for
the king was realizing Argos was founded by blacks
because by his time the Argives were a white people).


quote:
Originally posted by Sundjata:

Snowden's writings may be noteworthy concerning his take on greek and greco-roman descriptions.
What do you guys take of the color scheme attributed to Marcus Manilius (per Frank
Snowden, "Egypt in Africa", 1996) claiming the 'Aethiopians' to be the most sun burnt,
followed by Indians, then Egyptians, and THEN "moors", who were described as the lightest?


Excellent cite. Thanx..
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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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Begrimed and Black By Robert Earl Hood

 -

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Sundjata, Facts and evidence are in very short supply around here. That is especially true with people like Doug who think it is perfectly fine to adjust and reorder history to fit their racist notions.
If you get a degree in history, and I strongly urge anyone to do so, you have to take a class called historiography. This class deals with the study of history as a discpline. In this class you will learn how to handle historical data and you will examine how historians have handled method in the past.
You will be taught that you cannot use ancient art work to draw historical conclusions. Nor can you, as Diop did, create a construct without drawing into consideration the specialists in the field he is writing about. there are serious methods that keep us from making terrible mistakes. Sadly, these little racist constructs distort reality for young and unformed minds.

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Doug M
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The problem for you is that all you do is whine but produce nothing of substance. What I post is based on facts and evidence. You have produced nothing to contradict what is being said or what has been said in other threads about the FACT of black Africans being part of the Islamic empire in Europe and being an important factor in the development of civilization there. And you speak of historiography, yet you yourself are a hypocrite, because it is YOU who is talking historiography:
quote:

You want to tell us that the poorest, most backward section of the world is a pimary driver in the development of western civilization. To do this you will lie, distort, and warp facts while you insult hard working historians around the world.

Which makes me laugh. Since when was "Western" civilization an ANCIENT primary source of civilization in the world? "Western" civilization is a recent occurrence that has nothing to do with the roots of civilization. The roots of civilization lay with the roots of human beings and those roots are in Africa. None of those roots originate in Europe and Europe is one of the last places inhabited by modern humans and has never been a primary cradle of civilization.

So, history 101: where are the cradles of civilization and is Europe one of them?

No.

Is there a cradle of civilization in Africa?

Yes.

Therefore, you flunk Mr. Professor.

What does a cradle of civilization mean Mr. Professor?

It means a place where the fundamental patterns of thought, social organization and technological development were originated for the first time, providing the basis for all others that followed.

Therefore, considering that Africa IS a cradle of civilization, you are therefore shown to clearly be violating your own rules about historiography and therefore need to take your own medicine and take a course on it. "Western" civilization as taught in most "Western" classrooms is nothing but historiography.

Why you ask?

Because most of what the "West" has to day is directly the result of ideas and technologies stolen from other people conquered by Europeans in the last 500 years and influences from Africa and Asia for thousands of years before that. Yet because of the histrionics of most "Western" historians (like you), this fact is downplayed and the idea propagated that the "West" is special because it developed all on its own with no input and influence from anywhere else.

And as a perfect example of this "Western" mythology, lets look at something which is claimed as the epitome of the Western experience: The Cowboy. Not only do cowboys NOT originate with the Anglo Saxon settlers of North America, most of the cultural elements that go along with it do not as well. Cowboys are a direct influence of Africans and Asians on Europe, more specifically Spain and Portugal, which was transmitted to the Americas through conquest.

As a matter of fact, you can even see the African/Asian influence in the Saber worn by George Washington crossing the Delaware.

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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot:

Boy we have some real scholars here. Blacks have zero role in the development of Europe Doug.....not a scrap. You are a racist bigot with zero academic ability who lives his entire life dedicated to promoting racist propaganda.

You want to tell us that the poorest, most backward section of the world is a pimary driver in the development of western civilization. To do this you will lie, distort, and warp facts while you insult hard working historians around the world.

Indeed. What were them south Europeans thinking when placing pictures of the heads of worthless "Moorish" figures, from the most backward section of the world, on their flags and even going as far as imprinting them on coins? Couldn't they have been more creative and come up with adversaries more worthy of mentioning...like say, the "non-black Near Easterners" who ruled them?

 -  -  -

^Look at that; just pathetic!

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Doug, My argument is with your methods. Secondly, Europe is a SPECIFIC civilization and that is the one being examined here. If you want to know about Spanish history contact a Spanish historian and ask some damn questions. Spain is full of first rate Spaqnish historians who would be glad to answer your questions. My guess is that if their answers did not fit your preconcieved view you would simply discredit the historian.
Back to the original problem. You do not have the skill to correctly deal with ancient art work. It takes a highly trained specialist to deal with those kinds of questions. Hell, we have people on this board who post modern pictures to try to make an ancient ethnic point.
You guys are capable of learning and can do better.

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meninarmer
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^ I see a lot of people taking time to post SUPPORTING information to re-enforce their positions.
All I have yet seen from Hammer is lip service.

Hammer, you say these guys are not capable of learning. From your lack of presentation of documentation, I'd have to say you are even worst at teaching.

Posts: 3595 | From: Moved To Mars. Waiting with shotgun | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
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Mr. Patriot the only one who needs to ask questions and stop ignoring facts that they don't like is you. There are tons of Spanish historians that talk about the Moorish period of their history and they are happy to tell you how the Africans and Asians of the Islamic period helped their civilization develop into what it is today. So it seems to me that you need to consult some Spanish historians and ask them questions.

In fact, you need to ask them to contradict what I said about the African and Asian influence on their history and the fact the cowboy tradition is something that they got from the Islamic invaders.

Again, take your own advice, because all this protesting and no research means that for someone who professes to know it all, you know little and are not interested in learning anything outside your little thimble of knowledge.

On top of that, why don't you consult some African scholars from North and West Africa who would also be happy to tell you some of their own history as opposed to you and your fibbing. The fact that some Europeans feel that they are the only ones who should be seen as the authority on other people's history is a clear example of histrionics.

Again, no scholar denies the African and Asian influence on European horsemanship (including the horses themselves) or on the tradition of the cowboy. So why doth thou protest if thou hath nothing to counter that position? Sounds like to me you are just whining again.

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sportbilly
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quote:
Sportsbilly, What are these people doing in the Netherlands in the first place? They need to go home. [/QB]
What are they doing there? The same thing the white did when they invaded Africa: raping, robbing, killing and imposing their religion on people by force.
When somebody forces the whites off "their" land, makes the people into slaves and those remaining into fouth-class citizens with no rights, when the children are brutalized, the women raped as a matter of course and the men killed merely for sport, the Somalians have had the chance to tell the world what backwards primitives the people of the Netherlands are, have exploited the resources and made ZERO payments for it, undermined the society and deranged the political structure, THEN you can come bitching to me about it.

Though I won't listen to a word your dumbass has to say until these conditions have been going on for at LEAST 400 years.

And if you really want to know why they don't go home I could ask the same question about why the Dutch are still in South Africa, the British are in Kenya/Zimbabwe, the germans are in Namibia, the Spanish are still in Sierra Leone, the French in the Congo, as well as the arabs in the north.

Please try not opening your big "stoopid" yap when you don't have a leg to stand on. You just might find out you're on the wrong side of the issue.

BTW, Payback's a BITCH and so is the blonde whore in the picture [Big Grin]

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Doug, spanish historians are not going to agree with the line you promote. Nobody ever said that european civilization was not influenced by outside forces. No one group of people live in a bubble. The question then becomes how much were they influenced, when and by whom. My contention is that you folks go too far. You also know that I am not alone in that view.
The problem is that when you over reach you lose credibility. Afrocentrism is under pressure right now at many academic institutions. They are under pressure because they very often over reach. If you are going to get out on the very edge of scholarship you need to pay more attention to methods, that is all I am saying.
If every single person in Japan 1000 years ago was really black none of us would have a problem with it.

Sportsbilly, I do not disagree with you on that point, you do not see me living in Africa. They are going to turn on you in Europe and you'll have only yourself to blame. You have no business living there in my view.

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Doug M
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Mr Patriot please cite what it is specifically you disagree with and provide sources to back it up. All you do is whine and complain but never provide specifics. What about what is being said constitutes "going too far"? And what specifically do Spanish historians not agree with? You haven't said anything and all your posts amount to nothing but whining and no substance. This isn't an academic institution, it is a public forum so don't resort to tired old straw men to avoid your obligation to cite specific scholars and specific points that refute what has been said, which you have yet to do.

That is what makes your whole position of whining in support of a European oriented historical framework so tiring. It is absolutely nonsense and you know it. Simply put, the fact is that Africa is a cradle of not only humanity but also civilization while Europe is not. That isn't going to far. That is simply a fact.

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TheAmericanPatriot
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Spanish historians are not going to agree that the Muslim conquest of Spain was a black African driven event. Nobody is saying that black africans had no part to play in the ancient world. The Med basin was not populated by black Africans in ancient times, or modern times for that matter. With some exceptions black africans were and are primarily south of the desert.

Some of the stuff posted here is so diffuse you could not reply to it in any sensible manner if you wanted to. An example is trying to build an entire history around a gene marker from 10,000 years ago and tie that into the modern history of Europe.
I could care less how many black people lived in North Africa 2000 years ago. If every single oine of them were black it would not change history nor would it do a single thing for a modern black person living today. What I suggest is more mature examination of information.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Assopen:

I see Mary giving misleading information as usual. Saracens were not connected to any race.

And where have I said anything about 'race', nitwit?? And again, will you quit referring to me by the name of your madam madonna you fear so much.

You already suffered a humiliating failure in denying the mixed-ancestry of your European heritage, don't make a fool of yourself here. [Embarrassed]

Now getting back to the topic...

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AGÜEYBANÁ II (Mind718)
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Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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