posted
I don't know what Mathilda says about her two images far below on the left that you posted but they're of Algerian provenance and probably based on how some Numidians looked.
Maybe abdulKarem(sp) or somebody will translate the Arabic Mathilda deleted from those postage stamps which were posted here last year.
quote:Originally posted by Dj:
... Phoenicians were foreign colonists who were not natives of North Africa, ... the populations who were natives were blacks??!
. . . .
... Arabs and Phoenicians were foreign colonists from the 'Near-East' and were not the predominant native populations of North Africa!
... here are a few Roman mosaics of indigenous people from Carthage for you to ponder over:
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hence your irrational screaming at my posts are your problem, not mine, as they have nothing to do with what I meant. Nowhere did I say the meaning of the words Moor or Saracens were static and unchanging. The only reason you keep coming back is because you fucked up by claiming erroneously that Saracens were the non-black Muslims of North Africa and got...
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Well, seeing that you rave a poster who thinks posting perverted images is a intelligent form of debate... what do you expect. I wouldn't even engage someone like that unless you like more perverted replies.
You're right. I never realized that perhaps the nasty ass will merely use my rebuttals merely as a psychological fixation that verges on the sexual. So I just won't indulge it anymore.
quote:Anyway,
Some examples more examples of North African diversity:
Libyan Nalut Spring festival Moorish (Tuareg) and other Libyan types:
Of course, the professor will merely dismiss these pics as having no historical value since they are modern photos. No doubt he dismisses all these black North African natives as "newcomers" from Sub-Sahara despite there presence in their localities for millennia.
quote: Not to mention that the strong influence of black African rhythms and syncopation on the Northern African musical tradition. This tradition has many elements that can be considered "foundational" to the modern pop music genre. And as well, with the strong spirituality of the Gnawa tradition, you have the African spiritual roots of what is also seen in the African American spiritual basis of jazz, blues, gospel, R&B, house and rap.
Yes, well modern day Pop music is descended from older forms of Afro-American music which in turn is descended from Africa carried via slaves and immigrants. Of course the Sahara would be the common source of musical styles both in North Africa as well as those south of the desert.
quote:Look at this gnawa performance and note the similarities to break dancing. Some Berber musical styles with heavy use of drums, echo the later beats of rap as well as are early echoes of later drum and bass and other forms. But again, the root of all of this goes back to the musical traditions of black Africa, fused with the other cultural traditions from outside Africa.
Yes. I notice also the jubilant hand-clapping also described among ancient Egyptian music by Classical Greeks. And the strings and accompaniment is also nice. I personally like the Tuareg band Tinariwen
quote: Dar Gnawa
A group of black healer musicians of Morocco who are well-known for their purification ceremonies, their abilities to treat psychic disorders and other maladies, just by using sheer, magnificent spiritual power of the Gnawa music and rhythms.
Dar Gnawa, perform on many official and national celebrations as on international festivals, representing the Gnawa Culture worldwide.
This is what a PHD in African studies is supposed to be teaching, but of course since being co-opted you don't get this kind of stuff.
That depends on who you are talking to and to what academic system he is a part of.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't know what Mathilda says about her two images far below on the left that you posted but they're of Algerian provenance and probably based on how some Numidians looked.
Maybe abdulKarem(sp) or somebody will translate the Arabic Mathilda deleted from those postage stamps which were posted here last year.
Yes, thankyou I was asking for these pics and the thread where you first posted them. I really didn't want to use anything from Mathilda but it was the only thing I got from a quick google-image search, and well alot of her Egyptians pics were ripped off from this forum so what the heck.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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LOL @ the professor's last post. Now the guy brings up another red-herring about Indo-European languages!
What does Indo-European have anything to do with the topic of this thread?? Furthermore, IE languages are languages which are easily adopted and exchanged and therefore don't say much physically or genetically about the actual speakers themselves.
For example the women below are Indo-European speakers
So getting back to the topic at hand...
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I did not bring up the subject of indo European languages, Doug did. It is obvious you do not read the books covering the topics we discus but you might more carefully read the thread.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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OK, but the Gnawa are originally taMazight speaking north Africans. As their name implies, they originate from the Sudan. Gnawa are primarily Bambara a Mande speaking people.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't know what Mathilda says about her two images far below on the left that you posted but they're of Algerian provenance and probably based on how some Numidians looked.
Maybe abdulKarem(sp) or somebody will translate the Arabic Mathilda deleted from those postage stamps which were posted here last year.
Yes, thankyou I was asking for this pics and the thread where you first posted them. I really didn't want to use anything from Mathilda but it was the only thing I got from a quick google-image search, and well alot of her Egyptians pics were ripped off from this forum so what the heck.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
The modern day African nation of Mauritania is located in the northwestern area of the continent...
The majority of Mauritanians are described as Moors or black Muslims whose ancestors were Berber tribes who were converted to Islam in the 9th century by invading Arabs of the Beni Hassan. Although the Arabs or those of Arab descent like in many parts of North Africa are installed in elite positions it was the Moors themselves who played a more pivotal role in the Islamic conquest of both Northwest Africa in Iberia. Kel-Lmta or the Lamtuna clan was among the first of the Sanhaja or Saharan Berbers to convert to Islam. Not too long after the Hassane or warrior caste of the Lamtuna began to wage jihad in effort to spread Islam as well as establish military and economic power. In time they established the Almoravid dynasty which not only made its way to the Mediterranean coast (Morocco) but even crossed over the Straits of Gibraltar and conquered Iberia.
But the story of the Moors goes back even further than all this...
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The modern day nation of Mauritania is in fact named after the more ancient kingdom of Mauretania located further north.
In Antiquity, Mauretania was originally an independent Berber kingdom on the Mediterranean coast of north Africa (named after the Mauri tribe, after whom the Moors were named), corresponding to western Algeria, northern Morocco and Spanish Plazas de soberanía. The Mauri people were indicated with the Greek word mauros, black. Some of the earliest recorded history relates to Phoenician and Carthaginian settlements such as Lixus, Volubilis, Mogador and Chellah. The kingdom of Mauretania was not situated on the Atlantic coast south of Western Sahara, where modern Mauritania lies.
Hence, the Mauros were the indigenous (black) pre-Carthaginian inhabitants of the Northwest Africa.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Oh Mary, I almost forgot. If you are going by the "original meaning" of the term Saracen then you will have to go beyond Europeans of the middle ages to the early Christians,
"early Christian sources often applied the term Saracen indiscriminately to Muslim populations in general, including the Moors." [Link]
See this is what happens when your source for information is Wikipedia and you scorn black scholars. You undercover Eurocentric you.
You are exposed in very which way Mary. Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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I don't think Hassane are anything but beni Hassan Arabs and their descendents. Hasaniya is an Arabic dialect related to those in the Yemen. Check the Maur class/caste system for clues to the ethnicity of MaurItanians who of course are not the same as the ancient MaurEtanians. This is not to say that the modern nation state does not take its name from the fact that the al~Murabitun conquerers of Iberia were in fact known as Moors hence the appropriated term Maur.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Ignoring the panty fetish nazi tranny whose queries were previously answered on the last page...
The main point is that the very word Moor is derived from the Greek Mauros meaning black and therefore its original meaning applied to the black inhabitants of North Africa. If professor patriot disagrees he is welcome (as always) to refute the above.
posted
To ignore the guy, just ignore him. Don't respond to his comments and don't refer to him. Act as if he doesn't exist. Let him focus his attention cravings on others who'll feed it.
As for the so-called 'patriot' why persist on honoring him with the title professor when he doesn't even have a GED less lone a PhD.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't think Hassane are anything but beni Hassan Arabs and their descendents. Hasaniya is an Arabic dialect related to those in the Yemen. Check the Maur class/caste system for clues to the ethnicity of MaurItanians who of course are not the same asthe ancient MaurEtanians. This is not to say that the modern nation state does not take its name from the fact that the al~Murabitun conquerers of Iberia were in fact known as Moors hence the appropriated term Maur.
From what I gather, Hassane is the modern day use for the warrior caste. The name is no doubt of Arabic extraction, but this is to be expected since they do claim descent from Beni Hassan, and appear to be the most Arabized of the Berber castes.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Well, seeing that you rave a poster who thinks posting perverted images is a intelligent form of debate... what do you expect. I wouldn't even engage someone like that unless you like more perverted replies.
Yeh we are all aware of your intelligent style of debating as seen in your "real" black Madonna picture spams. lol
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: To ignore the guy, just ignore him. Don't respond to his comments and don't refer to him. Act as if he doesn't exist. Let him focus his attention cravings on others who'll feed it.
You mean like the way his guy pals feed him d**k. You're right, he is a silly little british batty boy with an asian fetish. I'll stop stringing him along now.
quote:As for the so-called 'patriot' why persist on honoring him with the title professor when he doesn't even have a GED less lone a PhD.
LOL Of course I use the term 'professor' sarcastically. As for at least GEDs, you know they give it to anyone these days. Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I'm sorry I can't find the post where the warrior, vassal, cleric, and slave classes/castes of Maur society are broken down but note that halPulaaren were generals in Mauritania not a decade ago before they suffered a 'pogrom.'
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
^ Of course. The 'professor' obviously has recollection problems of his previous debasements and humiliations. No matter how many years pass and how many threads on the same topic generated, he will still deny simple historical facts that involve the significance of blacks whether it be black Moors or black Egyptians. His racially-warped mind cannot accept the fact blacks are native to North Africa and were historically relevant.
By the way, I recall the other two castes being Zaiuwa and Zenaga. The former being the clergy and the latter the servants. I believe this was mentioned by Ausar.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Interesting. Ithought the Zenaga were the original inhabitants of the north part of Mauritania some of whom became clerics and most of whom became vassals.
Then there are outlier groups like the Imraguen who may have been part of the Bafur inhabitants of the south part of pre-Hassaniya Mauritania.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't think Hassane are anything but beni Hassan Arabs and their descendents. Hasaniya is an Arabic dialect related to those in the Yemen. Check the Maur class/caste system for clues to the ethnicity of MaurItanians who of course are not the same asthe ancient MaurEtanians. This is not to say that the modern nation state does not take its name from the fact that the al~Murabitun conquerers of Iberia were in fact known as Moors hence the appropriated term Maur.
From what I gather, Hassane is the modern day use for the warrior caste. The name is no doubt of Arabic extraction, but this is to be expected since they do claim descent from Beni Hassan, and appear to be the most Arabized of the Berber castes.
The Bani Hassan are late comers to Mauritania. They entered the picture long after the Almoravids ceased to be a force in NW Africa and after the Muslims had been expelled from Spain. They are the primary force responsible for the current social system in Mauritania, primarily due to the 30 year war between themselves and the Lamtuna Berbers.
quote: Beni Ḥassān (Arabic: بني حسان "sons of Ḥassān") was a Bedouin group, one of several Yemeni Maqil Arab tribes who emigrated in the Middle Ages to northwest Africa and present-day Western Sahara and Mauritania. They were preceded in much the same manner by the more well-known Bani Hilal Arabs.
The Beni Hassan and other warrior Arab tribes managed to establish their dominance over the Sanhaja Berber tribes of the area, and after the Char Bouba war of the 17th century. As a result, Arab culture and language came to dominate, and the Berber tribes were more or less arabized. The Bani Hassan's dialect of Arabic thus became the tongue of the region, and is still spoken in the form of Hassaniya Arabic.
Beni Hassan claim to be descendants of their ancestor Maqil, once living in Tunisia. This Maqil had two sons Suhair and Mohammed. This Mohammed was the father of Muhtar, who was the father of Sabbana and Hassan, the Hassan from which the Beni Hassan took their name. Many descendants of the Beni Hassan tribes today still adhere to the supremacist ideology of their ancestors. This ideology has led to oppression, discrimination and even enslavement of other groups in the region of Western Sahara.[1]
There is also a Beni Hassan tribe in Jordan whose territory stretches to Al Mafraq, Hamamah, Zarqa, and Irbid.
Prior to the 17th century the region of modern Mauritania was dominated by various Berber speaking and non Berber black African groups, more aptly termed Moor than the descendants of those who arrived long after the Moors were a functional power in NW Africa.
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posted
They weren't the original people from Mauritania who invaded Spain or were part of the time period referred to as the Moorish period in Spain is what I mean. They are too late in Mauritania to be included in that ethnic group. It wouldn't be accurate to include them as part of any Moorish population in Mauritania prior to 1500 AD.
Many of the populations of Mauritania prior to the arrival of the Hassiniya Arabic speakers were more closely related to the Islamic African cultures to the south, ethnically, physically and culturally, as the styles of dress and custom, including the metalworking are shared across a wide range of black Islamic communities from the Sahara to Nigeria. And this is important because many historians create this fake divide between Saharan Berbers and other Africans to the South when in actuality these two communities are like close cousins with strong ties of culture that predate Islam. Likewise, it is through this tie of trade and shared origins that much of the African influence entered into Islamic Northern Africa, including the textiles, the music and so on. Moorish North Africa was built on the trade with Western Africa which included gold, spices, leather, soldiers and the Berbers were some of the biggest customers of West African products, including steel and textiles. It is this package of Islamic culture that can be truly called African Islam and can be seen in Mali, Senegal, Niger, Nigeria and also in Sudan, which also has a similar pattern of Islamic culture to West African/Saharan Islam. This is especially seen in the white tunics with red, green and yellow squares that are found in both Sudanese historical contexts along with Nigeria. And it is from this ancient Saharan West African population that the Moors of ancient times were drawn from.
And it is from West Africa that the tradition of heavily embroidered African tunics can be said to originate. I would kinda say it is similar to some of the embroidery seen in some jeans or more popular fashion elements today with swirls and loops, as seen in the image above and below, which is hand made and one of a kind.
quote: Agbada is the Yoruba name for a type of flowing wide sleeved robe, usually decorated with embroidery, which is worn throughout much of Nigeria by important men, such as kings and chiefs, and on ceremonial occasions like weddings and funerals. The Hausa name for the robes is riga. Although today they are often still made from hand-woven cloth, the painstaking and beautiful hand embroidery that was used in the past is very rarely seen. Fine old robes have become family heirlooms passed on from father to son and worn with pride at major celebrations. In the past prestige robes were traded over vast distances and similar or related garments are found throughout much of West Africa.
Now, an important thing to understand is that all of this is old in West Africa, yet foreign European oriented NGOs keep flooding these areas with discarded clothing, which only destroys the native textile industry of Africa. Either that or they make it seem as if Africans need Europeans to teach them how to develop a textile industry, when the African textile industry predates contact with Europeans and the textile industry of Western Europe.
posted
^ keep this up and you're only going to humiliate yourself again like in your last Moorish debate with the great Jew.
Posts: 4165 | From: jamaica | Registered: May 2008
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posted
Doug, I maybe getting the names of the Arab tribes confused, but I know that the Almoravids or the Lamtuna clan in general were first converted somewhere in northern Mauritania/southern Morocco by one or several Arab tribes. Perhaps you are confusing the Beni Hassan for the Ummayids (original Saracens)(?)
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Interesting. Ithought the Zenaga were the original inhabitants of the north part of Mauritania some of whom became clerics and most of whom became vassals.
Then there are outlier groups like the Imraguen who may have been part of the Bafur inhabitants of the south part of pre-Hassaniya Mauritania.
Zenaga ~= Senegal
Yes, the Zenaga were the natives of the Senegal river who were assimilated by the Saharan Berber nomads. The class or caste system among the Berber nomads is very well a system traditional among them and not a recent creation by Arabs as some believed. The upper castes-- the Hassanes and Zaiwa are perhaps the more 'pristine' so to speak especiallys since they are the ones who most strictly adhere to their matrilineal descent. The Hassanes in particular while claiming Arab descent in their father's side of course still claim the main native ancestress on their mother's side. I am not to familiar with the Zaiuya, but as for the Zenaga, even though they are considered a 'servant' caste they are more so a commoner caste. It is the Haratin who truly fit the servant stratum of society. But of course the caste system of the Saharans is, I take it, not as strict or rigid as that of say Indians.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
In most of the texts I have seen the Beni Hassan are not attested in Northern Africa until about the 13th century and in Mauritania until the 17th. Therefore, it is not possible that they are the ones who first converted the Mauritanians to Islam as they were already converted by that time.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The majority of Mauritanians are described as Moors or black Muslims whose ancestors were Berber tribes who were converted to Islam in the 9th century by invading Arabs of the Beni Hassan.
I would say that the Mauritanian black muslims are descended from the ancient Zenaga speaking Moorish populations who were subjugated by the Beni Hassan in the 17th century.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, the Zenaga were the natives of the Senegal river who were assimilated by the Saharan Berber nomads. The class or caste system among the Berber nomads is very well a system traditional among them and not a recent creation by Arabs as some believed.
The Zenaga were actually part of the Saharan Berber nomadic confederation called the Sannhaja. Again, they are all part of an ancient strain of African bloodlines from the Sahara into West Africa. Zenaga is a bastardized form of Sannhaja. And it is from the term Zenaga that the word Senegal derives. The nonsense that somehow pastoral nomadic culture arrived in Africa with Islam is nonsense. This pattern was already established from 10,000 years ago and is the basis of the ancestral connection between West Africa and the Sahara. Horse riding, camel riding and donkeys all predate Islam in North and Western Africa, along with trade from West Africa to North Africa. And there is strong evidence for ties with the Nile Valley as well through a Sahelian corridor to West Africa. Islam primarily traveled into West Africa on networks of trade and culture that already existed.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: In most of the texts I have seen the Beni Hassan are not attested in Northern Africa until about the 13th century and in Mauritania until the 17th. Therefore, it is not possible that they are the ones who first converted the Mauritanians to Islam as they were already converted by that time.
You may be right, and I may be mistaken. Again, I assumed it was the Beni Hassan if not another Arab tribe. But it was some Arab tribe that introduced Islam to them. If you could find out who it was, that could prove useful.
quote:I would say that the Mauritanian black muslims are descended from the ancient Zenaga speaking Moorish populations who were subjugated by the Beni Hassan in the 17th century.
Yes, of this part I am certain. The Almoravids who conquered Spain come from the Lamtuna clan of Sanhaja.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
The Sahrawi are politically a branch of the Hassaniya speaking Arab Mauritanians that descend from the mixture of Berbers and Arabs in Mauritania. There was no such thing as a Sahrawi when the Almoravid launched their invasion of Spain.
Berber speaking people were already present throughout the Sahara and into Mauritania prior to the arrival of Islam. Any suggestion that these people arrived there at about the same time as Islam is pure histrionics based on Islam being the catalyst for the development of African culture. The fact that you have settlements in Mauritania going back 4,000 years makes it clear that trade and commerce was already a well developed pattern long before the arrival of Islam and that many of these folks included Berber speakers. The spread of Berber speaking Nomads from Sudan and East Africa into North West Africa far predates the arrival of Islam and certainly is not derived from Islam. Much of what is written about the "arrival" of Berbers into Mauritania or the Sahara "magically" about the same time as Islam is nonsense. That is like saying that Africans arrived in the Sahara about the same time as the Arabs. In reality the movement of Islam is not the same as the movement of Berber speakers. Inscriptions in Tifinagh from throughout the Sahara are over 2000 years old. Berber speakers have moved around in Africa over the last 1000 years, but most of that movement has been of black Africans Southward in response to encroachment by foreigners.
From wikipedia, which really contradicts itself on this issue in many ways:
quote: The Znaga or Zenaga tribes were at the bottom of Sahrawi-Moorish society in today's Mauritania and Western Sahara in North Africa. They performed demeaning duties for their Hassane (warrior) and Zawiya (religious) overlords, and were additionally exploited through payment of the horma tax in exchange for protection, as they could not bear arms. Though often Arabized in culture and language, they are believed to be descended from the Sanhaja Berber population present in the area before the arrival of the Arab Maqil tribes in the 12th century, which was finally subjected to domination by Arab-descended warrior castes in the 17th century Char Bouba war;[1] according to Mercer, the word "znaga" is thought to be a distortion of "Sanhaja".
posted
^ Sorry, I meant Sanhaja. Of course Berbers had their own cultures and history long before Arabs and Islam. One of the hilarious notions put forth by white supremacists is that West African states themselves were spurred on by the Arab influence! LOL This is a joke since Arabs did not even reach the Sahel, and there were no unified states among even the Islamisized Berbers until centuries after the development of unified nations and empires further south. The Sanhaja and other Berbers of the Sahara were essentially nomads with some settled groups in Oasis areas. As is many the case the propagation of 'Islam' was the excuse used by the Sanhaja to create an empire.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Neolithic Greeks were from the Balkans. Read the entire body of work on the subject. You are, in my view, affraid of the Martin book for all of the obvious reasons.
Technically you are right, but alas..
It seems that both in the Paleolithic and the dawn of the Neolithic, those pesky Africans keep appearing according to the quote from Martin's book below:
"Greek prehistory forms part of the prehistory of Europe, which in turn has its beginnings in the movement of early peoples outward from the African continent.. The first human beings in Greece probably migrated there long ago from the African continent via the eastern Mediterranean and Anatolia; a skull found at Petralona in Greece has been dated to at least two hundred thousand years before the present..."
"The Stone Age is conventionally subdivided into the Paleolithic (Greek for "Old Stone") and Neolithic ("New Stone") Ages. The end of the Paleolithic and thus the beginning of the Neolithic is usually placed about ten to twelve thousand years ago... People of modern type (Homo sapiens sapiens) began to migrate from Africa into Europe during the last part of the Paleolithic period. This new population eventually replaced completely the earlier populations, such as the Neanderthals; how this happened remains unknown..."
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Sorry, I meant Sanhaja. Of course Berbers had their own cultures and history long before Arabs and Islam. One of the hilarious notions put forth by white supremacists is that West African states themselves were spurred on by the Arab influence! LOL This is a joke since Arabs did not even reach the Sahel, and there were no unified states among even the Islamisized Berbers until centuries after the development of unified nations and empires further south. The Sanhaja and other Berbers of the Sahara were essentially nomads with some settled groups in Oasis areas. As is many the case the propagation of 'Islam' was the excuse used by the Sanhaja to create an empire.
Yes. But the Sahara had multiple civilizations from which the modern Berbers descend. Some predate and were pivotal to the development of dynastic Egypt and others were there at the time of the Romans and Islam. The Garamante were the main settled population of the Sahara upon the arrival of Islam.
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great thread,if you dont mine alow me to butt in with some none scholarly obersavations; now back when i was a kid in jamaica as reciently as 30yrs ago older folks use to tease very dark skin pickainny by calling them blackie moor we never knew what the term meant untill we read shakespear,now i guess that was hold over from slavery and pre independence time from the british. but the point is the word moor was being used for dark skin black people within my own life time, and if you dont belive me just walkup to any avarage jamaican over 30 and ask them. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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^ Yes, which is why it's important to free your minds from the shackles of ignorance that are most powerful form of the shackles of oppression by white supremacy.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Yes. But the Sahara had multiple civilizations from which the modern Berbers descend. Some predate and were pivotal to the development of dynastic Egypt and others were there at the time of the Romans and Islam. The Garamante were the main settled population of the Sahara upon the arrival of Islam.
Of course. The Garamantes were just one. There are probably others undiscovered yet in the Sahara.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Dakka Marrakchia Festival – A Musical Celebration
The Dakka Marrakchia Festival is not only part of the tradition in Morocco, but it is part of their heritage. It is a festival that has been passed down through the generations and dates back to the time when the Saadian Dynasty was in power in Morocco. Marrakech celebrates the Dakka Marrakchia Festival annually in the month of February. The rhythms and beats of this lively festival, lifts the spirit and pays tribute to the saints of the Marrakech region.
The spiritual patrons or saints of the region are referred to as Sabaatou Rijal. There are seven saints: Qadi Ayad, Imam El Jazouli, Imam Souhayli, Sidi Youssef Ben Ali, Sidi Abdelaziz Tabbaa, Sidi Abdellah El Gazouani and Abou El Abbas Essebti. To represent these seven saints, musicians from seven districts, namely the El Moukkaf neighborhood, Bin Laarassi, Bab D’Bagh, Derb Dabachi, Sabtiyyine, Cashbah and Ben Salah, take part in the festival. During the Dakka Marrakchia Festival ordinary locals, such as shopkeepers, artists and craftsmen, become the heart of the event, filling the air with traditional music and foot stomping beats.
Generally, male musicians perform the music that is played at the festival, and there is a lot of percussion, such as drumming, involved. The neighborhoods chosen to participate have been known for their exceptional musical talent throughout the centuries and traditional musical instruments are used and distributed during the festival. Musical instruments played by the Moroccan musicians are a combination of drums and are accompanied by choral chants. The instruments include, lakrakash, taarija, naffar and tara.
Each year the Dakka Marrakchia Festival is organized by the Asdekaa Nakhil Association (their name means “Friends of the Marrakech Palm Tree”). Their aim for the festival is to preserve this traditional event that is a part of their history and, hopefully, a part of their future. Trying to involve the youth by hosting workshops, conferences and exhibitions, educates the future generation on the history, folklores and cultural aspects of Morocco, and creates the interest and knowledge that will ensure the survival of this cultural festival. Visitors should try to attend the Dakka Marrakchia Festival, as it is a rare glimpse into a tradition that has been celebrated in Marrakech for over a thousand years.
And this is just one small part of the traditions of Morocco, this isn't even getting into Algeria, Libya, Niger, Mauritania or further south into Senegal, Mali and so forth.
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Note the elaborate saddles and fringed leather, which was influential on the development of rawhide braiding in Europe and the U.S.
quote: The Moors, who lived along the seacoast of northern Africa, crossed the Straits of Gibraltar (located between northern Africa and Europe) and conquered Spain in the year 711. The Moors took with them their knowledge of braiding and leather craft. Domination of Spain by the Moors lasted until 1492. During this period of time the art and style of braiding in Spain advanced significantly.
Hernando Cortez and his Spanish conquistadors invaded Mexico in 1519, and eventually overpowered the Aztec leadership of Mexico in 1521. Cortez is credited with introducing horses to North America. The conquistadors who accompanied Cortez were skilled in the art of leatherwork and braiding, and they taught the native Indians of Mexico how to braid and work with leather and rawhide. This became the foundation for even greater improvements to the rawhide braiding craftsmanship that would follow.
posted
Doug continues to post modern pictures to try to make a point about ancient life. Any post of that nature should be disregarded as silly nonsense.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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You mean of course your mere one liner denials are regarded as silly nonsense? Ok, I get it.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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I understand mindover that you have no appreciation of historical method. He also implied that black Africans geve Spain it's famous leather work which is absurd since the Goths settled the area centuries earlier and had not only great leatherwork but metal work as well. there is no limit to the lengths you guys go to simply make things up. You would be great fiction writers.
Posts: 2069 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: I understand mindover that you have no appreciation of historical method.
I have no appreciation for those who claim to be history teachers, but can not cite a single reference for anything he/she finds to be incorrect.
Just mere one liner denials, deeming everything as afro-centric as a scapegoat for your lack of intellect and refutations is not historical method. Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanPatriot: Doug continues to post modern pictures to try to make a point about ancient life. Any post of that nature should be disregarded as silly nonsense.
Actually Doug's purpose is to show the peoples from which the Medieval Moorish invaders are derived from! The Moors and especially the Almoravid dynasty which conquered Spain were Sanhaja Berbers such as the modern Tuareg of today.
FACT: blacks are and have always been indigenous to North Africa-- from prehistoric times, to ancient times, to Medieval times.
We know this fact upsets you professor, but deal with it!
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ I know am right, pat. Which is why you are still unable to refute info such as this below:
The modern day African nation of Mauritania is located in the northwestern area of the continent...
The majority of Mauritanians are described as Moors or black Muslims whose ancestors were Berber tribes who were converted to Islam in the 9th century by invading Arabs of the Beni Hassan. Although the Arabs or those of Arab descent like in many parts of North Africa are installed in elite positions it was the Moors themselves who played a more pivotal role in the Islamic conquest of both Northwest Africa in Iberia. Kel-Lmta or the Lamtuna clan was among the first of the Sanhaja or Saharan Berbers to convert to Islam. Not too long after the Hassane or warrior caste of the Lamtuna began to wage jihad in effort to spread Islam as well as establish military and economic power. In time they established the Almoravid dynasty which not only made its way to the Mediterranean coast (Morocco) but even crossed over the Straits of Gibraltar and conquered Iberia.
But the story of the Moors goes back even further than all this...
The modern day nation of Mauritania is in fact named after the more ancient kingdom of Mauretania located further north.
In Antiquity, Mauretania was originally an independent Berber kingdom on the Mediterranean coast of north Africa (named after the Mauri tribe, after whom the Moors were named), corresponding to western Algeria, northern Morocco and Spanish Plazas de soberanía. The Mauri people were indicated with the Greek word mauros, black. Some of the earliest recorded history relates to Phoenician and Carthaginian settlements such as Lixus, Volubilis, Mogador and Chellah. The kingdom of Mauretania was not situated on the Atlantic coast south of Western Sahara, where modern Mauritania lies.
Hence, the Mauros were the indigenous (black) pre-Carthaginian inhabitants of the Northwest Africa.
Posts: 26242 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Patriot has been shown to be unable to do anything other than whine about why logic and facts support the fact that blacks are indigenous to North Africa. It is simply a reflection of the fact that whites know full well how much Africa has influenced their development as a civilization and that their histrionics about Western civilization depend on covering up and hiding these facts, especially that of black African influence.
But I still do not agree that the Mauritanians were converted by Beni Hassan arabs because they werent there yet. They were converted in the 9th century. Likewise, the Almoravids were motivated by the conversion of two of their chiefs, Abdallah ibn Yasin and Yahya ibn Ibrahim, who were not Arabs at all by most accounts. Keep in mind that many core theological and spiritual tenets that have developed in North West Africa and were considered as heresies have still nevertheless had a profound impact on Islam. And actually across the world this was the norm, because Islam as it was originally practiced at the very beginning is definitely not the Islam of today. And of course, Africa, along with Persia and India are very important places of Islamic theological development.
Likewise there are many not only theological but cultural and artistic influences as well.
But we know why Mr. Patriot keep trotting out his whining appeals:
Origin of the word slave:
quote: At last we should mention the Slavs who arrived in the Muslim Spain. These can be subdivided into two groups: one consisted of the slaves of Slavic origin who were recognized as a highly valued commodity there, and the other were Slavic warriors who voluntarily became mercenaries in the service of the Arabic rulers of Spain; the latter must have been surely attracted by the fabulous wealth of al-Andalus.
The Slavic slaves sold to Muslim Spain included female concubines for the harems of the rich Arabs who were especially valued for their light complexion and blond hair, and males, often brought in as young boys, who either became civil servants, palace servants, eunuchs at the above-mentioned harems, or, in the case of the physically strongest speciemen, troops of the elite Slavic Guards, which served as preatorian guards whose soldiers enjoyed special privileges, of Spain's Arabic rulers. It must be also added that part of the Slavic slaves who arrived in Spain were later transferred to other locations in the Muslim world, like North Africa and even Near East; in the former the existence of the Slavic Guards has also been confirmed (see below about the Slavic Guard at Nukur).
Even this article states clearly that Spain was a mixed population in the Islamic areas, quite contrary to the protestations of the Patriot. It also mentions the African presence elsewhere as well.
quote: The alliance of the Slavic pirates with the Arabs mentioned by Abu'l-Fida'y was by no means the first one of its kind; Constantine Porphirogenetus reports that during the reign of Emperor Nicopherus in 805 or 807 Slavs attacked the city of Patras in the Peleponessus, together with "Saracens and Africans".
quote: The Slavic-ruled states established in Spain during the fitna were somewhat similar to the ones estabished by the Berbers, in that they were both founded by the alien military elites apparently pursuing their own interests and without much interest for the indigenous populations (that is actually Wasserstein's own assertion, the examples of at least some of the Slavic rulers show that, at least in some cases, the opposite was true); they were also often torn apart by internal squabbles, had very mixed native populations, and were either unwilling or unable to import additional members of their own race to increase their numbers.
quote: Surprisingly enough, the Berbers and Slavs were in many ways alike; they both dominated the military and administration, many of those in the military could not speak Arabic, their cultural levels were quite different from those of al-Andalus, they often did not settle on the land, they strongly retained their distinct racial identities, and, at least until the beginning of the Taifa Period, many did not become urbanized in spite of being encamped in vicinity of cities.
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Point blank, many Moroccans and other Northern Africans are simply light skinned Africans, most likely due to interaction with European, Levantine and Arabian populations.
Not to mention the fact that the black Berber speaking and Nomadic folks in the Sahara and to the South are the original North Africans to begin with and still exist from Niger right up into Tunisia.
posted
More historical testimony of the black Moors, although the source, Edith Wharton, is quite hostile to black achievements and only grudgingly gives them any credit:
quote: The Almoravid princes who founded Marrakech came from the black desert of Senegal, themselves were leaders of wild hordes. In the history of North Africa the same cycle has perpetually repeated itself. Generation after generation of chiefs have flowed in from the desert or the mountains, overthrown their predecessors, massacred, plundered, grown rich, built sudden palaces, encouraged their great servants to do the same, then fallen on them, and taken their wealth and their palaces. Usually some religious fury, some ascetic wrath against the self-indulgence of the cities, has been the motive of these attacks, but invariably the same results followed, as they followed when the Germanic barbarians descended on Italy. The conquerors, infected with luxury and mad with power, built vaster palaces, planned grander cities, but Sultans and Viziers camped in their golden houses as if on the march, and the mud huts of the tribesmen within their walls were but one degree removed from the mud-walled tents of the _bled_.
This was more especially the case with Marrakech, a city of Berbers and blacks, and the last outpost against the fierce black world beyond the Atlas from which its founders came. When one looks at its site, and considers its history, one can only marvel at the height of civilization it attained.
The Bahia itself, now the palace of the Resident General, though built less than a hundred years ago, is typical of the architectural megalomania of the great southern chiefs. It was built by Ba-Ahmed, the all-powerful black Vizier of the Sultan Moulay-el-Hassan.[A] Ba-Ahmed was evidently an artist and an archaeologist. His ambition was to re-create a Palace of Beauty such as the Moors had built in the prime of Arab art, and he brought to Marrakech skilled artificers of Fez, the last surviving masters of the mystery of chiselled plaster and ceramic mosaics and honeycombing of gilded cedar. They came, they built the Bahia, and it remains the loveliest and most fantastic of Moroccan palaces.
Marrakesh was the southern most prosperous city of early Morocco, long before any such modern boundaries existed and had a long history of trade and wealth from the South. This would also include the black Africans who originated that trade and wealth.
And I am quite sure that if you go back in the historical annals of Morocco this connection to black Africa of the early Empires there is quite clear. Just looking at the videos of the musicians doing dakka shows the obvious black African influence that has been blended and formed a new tradition, much as black African influence has fused and formed new traditions elsewhere.
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