posted
Well Folks In view of all the recent threads about how black or how much melainin this or that Pharaoh may carry...let us do draw points of comparison between Africa's classic Civilizations...continuious arguement of the above^^ has long been mute...let the kids go play in their sand box while us grown folks talk business.
Feel free to add pics and contents
exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/11/example... 1.bp.blogspot.com/_TFdF--fOnx8/SSFseKPZc8I/AA. Sorry I can't open a proper link you may hve to typing the above.
Kemetian headrest compare this^^ to the head rest from all over africa Tsonga Headrest
Ethiopean Timkat festival. Notice the priest with an object covered in cloth? well that reperesents an ark in minature..the the real one supposedly being kept at ST.Marys Catherdal...compare that with the Kemeties Opet festival. Ashanti life symbol＾
The kemitic life symbol＾＾
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Brada. Not pictures but 23 similarities seen by Budge between Africa and Ancient Egypt:
Sir E. A. Wallis Budge's book Osiris; The Egyptian Religion Of Resurrection gives one of the most detailed comparisons of African and Egyptian religion to be found anywhere.
Budge had always contended that the ancient Egyptians were African to the core and this bothered many scholars of his day who advocated an Asian origin for Egyptian civilization.
Listed below are some of the more striking links uncovered by Budge.
[1] Single creator god
The widespread belief in a single creator God, immortality, transmigration of souls and transubstantiation (partial residence of God in amulets).
[2] Moon and sun as gods
The Moon, rather than the Sun, is associated with the Supreme God among the ancient Egyptians and among peoples living along the Nile, Congo and Niger. Budge notes that the New Moon festival is found all over Africa and is commonly associated, as it was in ancient Egypt, with the remembrance, by kings and commoners, of their sins, and by prayers for protection from evil spirits. He cites examples such as the Mendi, Tshi and Ilogo and various peoples in Sudan and Tanganyika.
[3] The sacred cow and bull sacrifice
The importance of the cow as the most sacred of animals is found in ancient Egypt and in many parts of Africa especially among the peoples living along the Nile and in the Great Lakes region. Of particular importance was the sacrifice of a bull(s) at the funeral of the deceased. The sacrifice of two bulls at funerals is detailed in "The Opening of the Mouth." The Egyptian rite involved offering the heart of one bull to the mouth of the deceased or to a statue of the deceased. The hide of the other bull was used to wrap the corpse. Both rituals were believed to impart the powers of the bull (which represented Osiris) to the dead ancestor. Budge gives numerous examples of the sacrifice of a bull during African funerals. Among many Nilotic peoples the bull's hide is placed at the bottom of the grave.
[4] Offering made to ancestors
In Egypt, offerings were made to ancestors in the form of meals placed on stone slabs in the ancestor's tomb. Budge notes that stone slabs were used for the same purpose among the Buvuma. The offering of meals to ancestors in spirit houses is widely found through much of Africa and Budge cites examples among the Bakonjo, Basukuma, Makarakas and in East and West Africa.
[5] Deification of ancestors
Deification of ancestor heroes is a common practice in much of Africa. Budge notes that Osiris in the form of Khenti-Amenti stands as the ancestor god of Egypt while Isis is the ancestor mother goddess. He notes the uncanny resemblance between the widespread African practice of giving birth in the "bush" to a bas relief found at Philae. Among Africans, birth in the bush is done in solitude with the father and the shaman waiting from a comfortable distance until after the delivery. The relief at Philae shows Isis in a stylized papyrus swamp suckling Horus. The papyrus would thus stand here for the "bush." Standing on either side of Isis is Amen-Ra, representing the African father, and Thoth, representing the African shaman. Budge thinks the symbols found under Isis could represent the placenta and blood associated with child birth. Interestingly, Budge cites a passage in which Isis speaks of her loneliness during labor, which mirrors the African tradition of giving child birth in solitude. Specific examples are given from Uganda and the Sudan.
[6] Amulets
Amulets are seen as partial residences for ancestral spirits in ancient Egypt and throughout Africa. Budge notes that the "fetish" quality of amulets, often stressed by Western observers, is secondary to the importance of communion with the ancestors. The beetle and frog are amulets of new life in both ancient Egypt and modern Africa.
[7] Practice of consuming slain enemies
In predynastic Egypt, Budge gives evidence of the practice of consuming the bodies of slain enemies. This also appears to have persisted, to some extent, even into the dynastic period. Passages are cited relating how King Unas of Sakkara obtained supernatural powers through eating human flesh. The same story is repeated in the pyramid of Teta in the VI dynasty. The practice of consuming one's slain enemies and the consequent powers gained survived among some African peoples in Budge's day. However, Budge goes overboard in giving citations of cannibalism in medieval and modern Egypt and Africa. In many cases, such events were driven by hunger during famine or war and have little to do with the concepts illustrated from ancient Egypt.
[8] Servants slain at death of king
In ancient Egypt, slaves and others were often put to death at the funerals of kings and important people. Budge cites the same practice at the funerals of chiefs in Sudan, the Gold Coast, Benin, along the Niger and Congo and elsewhere. The resting of coffins on human heads in Sudan is linked to a similar practice illustrated on the tomb of Seti I.
[9] Feathered hats
The tall hats and horned crowns worn by African chiefs resemble the White Crown and horned crowns worn by Osiris. Examples are given among the Bayanzi, Imbangela, Lomani, Lulongo-Maringo, Bangala, N. Ngombe and Alunda. Two ostrich feathers decorate the White Crown of Osiris. These feathers are worn by various peoples in Africa also.
[10] Plaited beard
The plaited beard common in old Egyptian art is quite common in various parts of Africa. Budge cites examples among the Makarkas, Mpungu, Fang, Bayanzi, Lunda and Luba. The "scalework" on the body of Osiris is thought to be related to the body painting or tatooing found among various African peoples particularly those in the Sudan.
Budge notes that both modern Africans and ancient Egyptians practiced preservation of the dead body: "The Egyptians removed the intestines and brain, and embalmed the body with great skill, and then swathed it in linen, and laid it in a coffin or sarcophagus. The modern African removes the more perishable parts of the body by ways which will be described further on, and dries or smokes the corpse very effectively. He also anoits it with unguents, and wraps it up in much cloth, and then places it in a coffin or on a bier." (p. 90).
[11] Jaw bones
The mention of the jawbones of the deceased Unas, Re-stau and enemies of Horus in Egyptian texts are explained by the African practice of removing and preserving the jawbones of kings, or using the jawbones of enemies as trophies. Specifially mentioned are the Sudani, Dahomey, Baganda, Ashante and various peoples of Uganda.
[12] The double and three souls
The Egyptian concept of the ka, meaning"double" has its counterpart throughout wide regions of Africa. Among the Tshi it is known as kra or kla meaning "soul" and as doshi among the Bantu which means literally "double" (as in the Egyptian). In both Egypt and the rest of Africa, the ka differs from the Western idea of "soul." The ancient Egyptians and modern Africans had the idea of at least three types of "souls" inhabiting each person. The ka is an immaterial double of the physical body that persists after death. The ka though is distinct from the person, and is a type of guardian spirit. The ka in both Africa and ancient Egypt must be cared for after a person dies or the ka itself will perish. Egyptians and Africans made images in which the ka dwelt and to these were offered meals and worship.
[13] The sahu or spirit body
The sahu or "spirit-body" arose in the "Other World" after one's death. Among the Tshi, the "shadowy person" that comes to live in the "Other World" after death is known as Srahman. Similar ideas were cited amongst the Yoruba, Uvengwa and Baluba. Like the ba, the sahu could perish in certain circumstances.
[14] The shadow
The Egyptians considered the shadow or khaibat as a type of "soul." Similar beliefs among the Nsism, Wanyamwesi, Nandi, and Busuko and in various parts of the Lower Niger, Congo, Southern Guinea and Mashonaland were mentioned by Budge.
[15] The khu
The khu was the imperishable spirit and had its counterpart in the "dual soul" concept of West Africa. The belief in transmigration of the dual soul and shadow was common in Africa. Reincarnation was widely found among the people of the Niger Delta who made a practice of identifying which people in a community were the souls of persons deceased in earlier times. Among the Pygmies, Banza and West Mubangi the spirit was reincarnated in animal form and this type of belief was held by some segments of the Egyptian population.
[16] Burial in pit so body does not touch earth
Both modern Africans and ancient Egyptians took care to protect the buried body from contact with the earth, which was seen as contaminating. The African burial usually consists of a deep pit into which a niche is carved so that the body does not come into contact with the earth. The Egyptian tomb was also built in a pit with a sarcophagus taking the role of the niche. In some African burials the niche was sealed off with stones as with the Egyptian sarcophagus.
[17] Difficult journey after death
The Egyptians, like modern Africans, saw the journey to the "Other World" after death as difficult. In both cases, rituals were performed to "open the way" for the deceased. The Egyptian concept of Tuat found its counterpart in the African "God's Town" or "Njambi's Town."
[18] Divine kingship
The concept of divine kingship linked ancient and modern cultures.
[19] Magic
Ancient Egyptians and modern Africans both had priests/shamans adept in both "white" and "black" magic. Unlike the Hebrew or Mesopotamian priest, who usually eschewed magical practices [Marc W’s note: at the University of Pennsylvania library, I was researching magic and over 500 books came up with magic amongst the Hebrew; and if you read Mesopotamian myths of Gilgamesh and others, they surely had magic and big-time], the Egyptian priest's schooling involved learning innumerable magical incantations and potions.
The use of "black magic" by Egyptian priests often resembled practices common in Voodoo. These included the making of wax dolls in the image of specific persons. These wax dolls could be cut and slashed to inflict pain on those persons or burnt to inflict death. In one passage, a wax crocodile was fashioned that turned into the real thing in order to attack the intended victim.
[20] Spitting
Budge notes that spitting had a religious meaning among ancient Egyptians. He found similar beliefs among the Kordofan, Dyur, Barotze, Nandi, Suk, Kytch and Masa. [Marc’s note: in Mesopotamia, in one creation myth, the god spits and man is created from the spital]
[21] Steatopygous women
In a somewhat unrelated notice, Budge mentions that Egyptians commonly made figures of steatopygous women. He mentions specifically the dolls and representations at the 4th Egyptian Room in the British Museum. He compares these with the figures of the steatopygous queen and princess of Punt. [Marc’s note: and Pygmy]
[22] Snake worship and uraeus
Budge notes that African cultures, including Egypt, often worship the snake and crocodile. The symbolism of the serpent uraeus is specially noted.
[23] The use of multiple names
The use of multiple "mighty names" among ancient Egyptians was similar to the use of "strong names" among African peoples.
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Thank you Marc.W!!! please post textuall contents as well. I like doing Images for those who don't like reading...but an Image may force some back to the books to see if what's posted is true. And yes Big MO simple comparision is best when one is not getting bog down in whiteanin... I mean... oops Melanin..
Opet festival compare with Timkat above. Notice the boat being carried compared to the Tabot reperesenting an ark being carried on the heads of the Ethiopian priest.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Nice evidence. The mind-blower for me is the Egyptian dashiki! Never saw anything like it before in terms of being something Egyptian so definitely black and so unexpectedly in such great shape for a clothing item so old.
It's one of those, "Ain't no way to deny it" items.
That is a real gem.
Kudos to you for finding and posting it.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Thanks!! again Marc W.I am trying to find the long version to compare with those in modern day Nigeria but to no avail I have seen it posted some where before... but darn I just cant find it. One thing I just start posting pics but how is it possible to loose pics and get the red x and have them return like magic. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Zimbabwe soap stone sculpture Benin sculpture Looks Kemitic but actually a very Yoruban ram head sculpture. 25 dyn.Kushto-Kemet rams head.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Emperor fasilda palace Ethiopia Gede Palace Kenya Palace of the king of porto-novo Benin Old palace at Kumassi Merotic Temple sorry couldn't find a Palace
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Bought to you by Anansi...Feel free to add and update image and text content...critique..agree or disagree. like or dislike Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Brada. Really inspiring to see the pairimg of cultural artifacts common Africa and Egypt ... as if it isn't / wasn't generally known for going on two centuries by Egyptologists, many historians, and well-trained archeologists.
. .
-------------------- The nature of homelife is the fate of the nation. Posts: 2334 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Or4cle,thanks for the Anansi story link...I choose my avatar well...
Marc.W thanks also I really wanted to put in pictures the feel and look of these civilization...all join by a common a thread but no mere copies of each other..each deserved to be studied in it's own right.
There is alot left out for example the savannah civilizations,Zimbabwe,North of the desert, and numerous I havn't even touched yet. perhaps someone can take up the mantle. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Yeah it's quite obvious (looking at the Whole picture) The Man is completely African. A stone cold African.
Posts: 368 | From: Oxford | Registered: Jan 2008
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Could Bes,originated in the Great Lakes region and wasn't he connected to Pan of the Greeks. And if so wouldn't that put him on the path to Nigeria also???..see the Bes in Nigeria thread.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Shady Aftermath: Yeah it's quite obvious (looking at the Whole picture) The Man is completely African. A stone cold African.
I can't see the picture right now, but if it's that dwarf picture i have to say yes, as is usually the case when looking at so much AE artwork **holistically**.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
^ Egyptian headdress ^ Traditional healer Nokusho Bhengu wears a headdress topped with goat gall bladders in KwaNgcolosi, South Africa.
Posts: 189 | From: Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Sure - the connection between Egypt and Sub-Saharan West Africa is just like the connection between the Chinese and the Samoans.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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^ Sorry, but I don't see a connection. And I thought I already explained to you the differences between Chinese and Samoans before?
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Osirion wrote;Sure - the connection between Egypt and Sub-Saharan West Africa is just like the connection between the Chinese and the Samoans.
NO not quite..the wet Sahara was an incubator of sorts...sharing common beleifs and pratices..the point of the thread was not to show all thing came from Kemet but all things went from all parts of Africa to Kemet and sometimes returned to all parts of Africa..that is to show Kemet was a down to the bone throughly African product. see Brandon's thread above.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Sorry, but I don't see a connection. And I thought I already explained to you the differences between Chinese and Samoans before?
Thats because the connection is only genetic and not cultural. Same with the point of this topic.
Genetic relationship and very little cultural one.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Why are comparisons with "sub-Saharan" West Africa so important? Both Ethiopia and SOmalia are "sub-Saharan" but numerous studies curiously shy away from making comparisons to them and Egypt. One study of Ethiopians for example focuses comparisons to black Americans who while Afrian derived are not even on the continent, versus closer Somalians or Kenyans. Another claiming to study "North Africans" conveniently exclude Mali, Niger, Chad and the Sudan.
Also the peoples of the ancient Sahara are distinctly "negroid" as shown in the rock paintings they left behind. That is why Toby Wilkinson 1999 in his book 'Pre Dyanstic Egypt' pegs the Sahara as the key zone influencing fundamental Egyptian culture, as does Wendorf 1999.
It was from the Saharan zone which extends all the way to the edge of the Horn, and including part of the Sudan, and including what is now Mali, Chad and Niger that Egypt was peopled over the broad span of time. Indeed the Sahara was once a greenbelt covering 1/3 of Africa casting doubt on the all too convenient separation or segregation of West Africa from the rest of the continent based on this ancient context of movement over the millenia by multiple tribes. There are cultural similarities between West Africa and Egypt as various thread have shown. None claim that the two regions are identical. In any event, the great belt of the Sahara, over its range of time, peoples and movement, links both West Africa and the Nile Valley.
So the much ballyhooed "sub-Saharan" West Africa comparison is a flawed one, and part and parcel of the "divide and conquer" tactics used by "Aryan" claimants. The Sahara was a key transmitter of population to the Nile Valley, trumping "divide and conquer" tactics. The pN2 clade and Haplogroup E, also trump them.
as for those cultural links with AFRICA:
Much older scholarship shows cultural similarities between ancient Egypt and the rest of Africa, contradicting claims of Middle Eastern inspiration.
--Specific central African tool designs found at the well known Naqada, Badari and Fayum archaeological sites in Egypt (de Heinzelin 1962, Arkell and Ucko, 1956 et al). Shaw (1976) states that "the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." Pottery evidence first seen in the Saharan Highlands then spreading to the Nile Valley (Flight 1973). Art motifs of Saharan rock paintings showing similarities to those in pharaonic art. A number of scholars suggest that these earlier artistic styles influenced later pharaonic art via Saharans leaving drier areas and moving into the Nile Valley taking their art styles with them (Mori 1964, Blanc 1964, et al)
--Earlier pioneering mummification outside Egypt. The oldest mummy in Africa is of a black Saharan child (Donadoni 1964, Blanc 1964) Frankfort (1956) suggests that it is thus possible to understand the pharaonic worldview by reference to the religious beliefs of these earlier African precursors. Attempts to suggest the root of such practices are due to Caucasoid civilizers from elsewhere are thus contradicted by the data on the ground.
--Several cultural practices of Egypt show strong similarities to an African totemic clan base. Childe (1969, 1978), Aldred (1978) and Strouhal (1971) demonstrate linkages with several African practices such as divine kingship and the king as divine rainmaker.
--Physical similarities of the early Nile valley populations with that of tropical Africans. Such connections are demonstrated in the work of numerous scholars such as Thompson and Randall Mclver 1905, Falkenburger 1947, and Strouhal 1971. The distance diagrams of Mukherjee, Rao and Trevor (1955) place the ancient Badarians genetically near 'black' tribes such as the Ashanti and the Taita. See also the "Issues of lumping under Mediterranean clusters" section above for similar older analyses.
--Serological (blood) evidence of genetic linkages. Paoli 1972 for example found a significant resemblance between ABO frequencies of dynastic Egyptians and the black northern Haratin who are held to be the probable descendants of the original Saharans (Hiernaux, 1975).
--Language similarities which include several hundred roots ascribable to African elements (UNESCO 1974)
--Ancient Egyptian origin stories ascribing origins of the gods and their ancestors to African locations to the south and west of Egypt (Davidson 1959)
--Advanced state building and political unity in Nubia, including writing, administrative apparatus and insignia some 300 years before dynastic Egypt, and the long demonstrated interchange between Nubia and Egypt (Williams 1980)
--Newer studies (Wendorf 2001, Wilkinson 1999, et al.) confirm these older analyses. Excavations from Nabta Playa, located about 100km west of Abu Simbel for example, suggest that the Neolithic inhabitants of the region were migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa, based on cultural similarities and social complexity which is thought to be reflective of Egypt's Old Kingdom
--Other scholars (Wilkinson 1999) present similar material and cultural evidence- including similarities between predynastic Egypt and traditional African cattle-culture, typical of Southern Sudanese and East African pastoralists of today, and various cultural and artistic data such as iconography on rock art found in both Egypt and in the Sudan.
One of Egypt's greatest dynasties, the 12th, originated from dark-skinned Nubian stock, according to conservative Egyptologist F. Yurco (1989). Other conservative Egyptologists such as Redford (From Slave to Pharoah: The Black Experience, 2004) also consider Nubia to be primarily 'black'. The 12th Dynasty ruled approximately 1000 years BEFORE the well known "black" 25th Dynasty. Conquest and inaguration of the Dynastic era from the 'darker' south not the north near the Mediterranean or Middle East.
Quote:
"the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region.4 As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
Ancient Egyptian religion closer to the religion of African regions than to Mesopotamia, Europe or the Middle East
QUOTE(s): Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508 "A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
and yet assorted 'Aryan' supporters argue that "wandering Caucasoids" are responsible for fundamental Egyptian culture...
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Zarahan, you did quite well untill that^^..But yes all the Sub VS North,East Vs West is nonsense..before 6000 B.C there was nothing to Sub as there was no desert.and when the dry-times came people moved east,west north and south...a few die-hards stayed put.But all were sharing similar culture in the wet Sahara,though not the same languages.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Nice pics,but I think the middle one is the closest.
Kemitian Kopesh in the center I think DJ has a better pic of a kopesh like weapon from the Kongo also.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
^ Ngbandi saber. Is this perhaps the one you speak of? It probably isnt but its the cloest thing I could find at the moment.
Posts: 189 | From: Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Naw!! that's not it although it looks pretty intimidating. the one of which I speak looks excatly like the Kopesh in the middle...once posted by DJ.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Naw!! that's not it although it looks pretty intimidating. the one of which I speak looks excatly like the Kopesh in the middle...once posted by DJ.
Ohhh! ok the your picture didn't show up a couple of days ago so I just stabbed in the dark. I was way off too. But yea the similarity is striking.
Posts: 189 | From: Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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