posted
You don't see modern Mexicans claiming they're full-blooded Aztecs or modern Guatemalans claiming they're full-blooded Mayans. Yet suggest to modern Egyptians that they have a diverse genetic heritage and that the original Egyptians were black Africans and they get really upset. Why is that?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I would like to hear some modern Egyptians respond but what I think it boils down to is:
1. Not identifying racially with Black Africans
2. Racism
Take your Mexican example for instance. Mexicans do not deny that they have Spanish ancestry but most do not identify racially as White. They see themselves as the descendants of Aztecs mixed with Spaniards but identify more as Natives of their land.
Light-skinned modern Egyptians believe that their phenotype is indigenous to North Africa and that the Ancient Egyptians looked like themselves.
They see the notion that the Ancient Egyptians were Black as a robbing of their heritage. Dark-skinned Egyptians on the other hand are more open to such an idea because they can more easily identify as Black African.
Even people like Masreyya who acknowledges that the Ancient Egyptians were atleast partially Black insists that the modern diversity we see in Egypt today is reflective of the ancient diversity. In other words Egyptians are Egyptians to them. They have a fixed perception of what is authentically Egyptian.
Then ofcourse you've got racist trolls like Dirk who have bought into White Supremacy and desperately seek honorary White status. If he is Egyptian at all he is likely not reflective of the average Egyptian's attitude. I don't for instance think someone like Zahi Hawass would feel the need to denigrate Black people just because he doesn't think the Ancient Egyptians were Black.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: Then ofcourse you've got racist trolls like Dirk who have bought into White Supremacy and desperately seek honorary White status. If he is Egyptian at all he is likely not reflective of the average Egyptian's attitude. I don't for instance think someone like Zahi Hawass would feel the need to denigrate Black people just because he doesn't think the Ancient Egyptians were Black.
Dirk is so strange... its not just his obssesion with black ppl thats making me question him.
I only have small egyptian heritage,im not egyptian but my uncle is.he is one of the few Egyptian people in my family. first off he doesnt like the term "black" so he wouldnt describe the AE as being "black". I dont care much about the word either. he belives that the AE were African and were just as African as the rest of africa. He belives that how they portray themselvs were exactly how the looked liked.
Posts: 63 | Registered: Sep 2009
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He says that (Standing right behind me) AE may have looked liked how people from northern sudan looked? maybe even somalis maybe?
Posts: 63 | Registered: Sep 2009
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Folks, this thread and its participants (not including me of course) is more indication of borderline retardation of 99% of the posters on this forum.
These dummies actually believe everything some loon tells them. They believe that the supposed hick from texas is a university professor.
They believe this dirk character is an egyptian. LOL! : )
Those guys are fruitcakes that Charlie Bass and astenb brought over from the loon forums.
But is anyone surprised? These fools spend their entire lives arguing the same thing with people who have obvious psychological problems. With that being the case they would be dumb enough to believe they are college professors and egyptians.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Add to that the poverty real or imagined..wars and whatever negative real or b/s that gets digested with your breakfast lunch and dinner..you get the likes of him.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Just asking because this is a recurring theme with your postings.
Folks people have conflicts with other people all over the world yet markellion, king, brandon p, and t-rex (all are white by the way) semen on themselves when they "believe" someone doesn't like so called "blacks".
More evidence of the mental illness of those on this forum.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
This is an obviously a result of European colonialism. Do you want to ignore reality or do you want to address the problems colonialism brought
Posts: 2642 | Registered: Sep 2007
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Tyro, no offense but i'm beginning to really see why many of the main vets thought of some of your threads as ... "slow".
The title's read like something off of the website:
www.topix.com/forum/afam (all non-trolls other than Tyro, don't waste your time clicking, it's a very chatroom with TONS of traffic and pretenders with alot of time on their hands)
quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: [qb] Then ofcourse you've got racist trolls like Dirk who have bought into White Supremacy and desperately seek honorary White status. If he is Egyptian at all he is likely not reflective of the average Egyptian's attitude. I don't for instance think someone like Zahi Hawass would feel the need to denigrate Black people just because he doesn't think the Ancient Egyptians were Black.
Morpheus - By refusing to acknowledge that the ancient Egyptians were Black people, that lying, camel fornicator Hawass IS denigrating Black people. You talk as if it's an honest difference of opinion. That is a fools claim. There are thousands upon thousands of artifacts, which the Egyptians made in their own image, and which clearly show the Egyptians to be normal looking Black people.
For someone to IGNORE this evidence in favor of a racist fantasy, is NOT an honest difference of opinion. Rather it shows a weak and worthless man who will make himself a liar in order to calm his own, and the fragile psyches of his fellow Turk Camel herders who know two things.
They are Not Black, but the Egyptians WERE, so the only way to make something of themselves is to claim to be Egyptian, and then to claim that the Egyptians were like them - not Black. They, like the White people who also engage in this same pathetic behavior are lowlifes.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Morpheus - By refusing to acknowledge that the ancient Egyptians were Black people, that lying, camel fornicator Hawass IS denigrating Black people. You talk as if it's an honest difference of opinion. That is a fools claim. There are thousands upon thousands of artifacts, which the Egyptians made in their own image, and which clearly show the Egyptians to be normal looking Black people.
For someone to IGNORE this evidence in favor of a racist fantasy, is NOT an honest difference of opinion. Rather it shows a weak and worthless man who will make himself a liar in order to calm his own, and the fragile psyches of his fellow Turk Camel herders who know two things.
They are Not Black, but the Egyptians WERE, so the only way to make something of themselves is to claim to be Egyptian, and then to claim that the Egyptians were like them - not Black. They, like the White people who also engage in this same pathetic behavior are lowlifes.
Mike,
I do find it peculiar that Hawass and other Egyptian Egyptologists can deny the Ancient Egyptians were Black despite all the artifacts which clearly depict dark-skinned people with tropical African physical characteristics. However I also recognize that being born an Egyptian Hawass and other Egyptians who have dedicated their lives to studying Ancient Egyptian culture have an emotional attachment to their heritage and naturally have a hard time seeing their ancestors as looking any differently from themselves.
Hawass gave his opinion on this site where he rejects Diop's theories based on the conclusions of the 1974 UNESCO conference and prescribes to the "True Negro" Myth to argue against the Ancient Egyptians being Black. Modern Bio-anthropologists have rejected this line of thinking but it was the dominant theory at the time. So Hawass's views are a product of emotional bias and bad science but I don't think he holds hostility towards Black Africans or African-Americans. He sounds understanding of the African-American desire to feel connected to an Ancient culture, in a CNN interview he even says that Tut was an African so that is something to be proud of he was just scientifically not Black.
Hawass as also been quoted as saying that the modern Upper Egyptians are culturally most related to the Ancient Egyptians. Many of these Egyptians were people that we call Black but they may not be Black in his mind.
I do not think it is so simple to write Hawass off as a racist. I do not know him personally but based on his statements I think he is simply biased and misguided. You btw do us no favors with your hateful rhetoric about a modern Egyptians being camel humping Turks. That type of hate crap gives Egyptsearch posters a bad reputation as Afro-nuts. I have seen African-Americans chastise modern Egyptians in Youtube videos saying that they are not true Egyptians and that their foreign ancestors murdered all the Blacks in Egypt. They've even said this to modern BLACK Egyptians. That kind of attitude is not productive.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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Morpheus - Thank you for that thoughtful response. In a time of Dirk8, it is refreshing and appreciated. However I would like to clear up some misconceptions that you have.
Firstly - It is no honor to be glorified by your destroyer! That is as bullsh1t as Americans homage to the Indian. They come in, kill them with abandon, take their land and their country, and then all of a sudden they are enthralled by what they just destroyed??? That is pure Bullsh1t. Or did you think that the Egyptians and Indians, willingly gave up their country?
BTW - Egypt is NOT Hawass's heritage, he is a Turk, his heritage, like that of all Whites or almost Whites, is in Central Asia.
As to Hawass not having hostility towards Blacks. No one gives a sh1t, we have plenty enough towards him for being such a lying piece of sh1t.
Next, I do not feel a particular desire to connect to Egypt. As far as I know, I am not genetically connected to Egyptians, and Egypt is not my favorite culture, Sumer is.
As to African Americans chastising modern Egyptians, I think that's great, if they can't prove that they are Black, then they are with the destroyers. And I hope that all Blacks, everywhere, get in on that sort of thing. Our history and our lands as Black people, has been stolen from us by White people, and the almost White. I do not take kindly to those who would take me for a fool by denying that.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Morpheus, I doubt many Arabic-speaking Egyptians will adress your inquiry. You will only find Americanized Egyptians wheather Muslim or Christians and very few of these with the exception of some Muslims and Christians care much about ancient Egypt.
Much more modern Egyptians divorce themselves completely from the pharonic era and choose to identify with Arabs historically and culturally.
I hate to say this as an Egyptian but there is extreme bias against ''black'' African people and many modern Egyptians see them as much too primitive to have developed or partisipated in the development of ancient Egypt. Much of this is shaded by occupying foreigners that have ruled Egypt. Some of this is probably seeing many ''dark skinned'' people in menial jobs in Cairo.
However, I have personally encountered many Egyptians that see Nubians as the founders and forbearers of the ancient Egyptians. The Nubians are often seen by some Egyptians as being the most authenic. Of course, lots of Egyptians will not consider the Nubians ethnically the same as ''black'' Africans despite them being such.
Its a really complex subject that would require on your behalf some reserch into the various occupations of Egypt into the modern era. While you mention many ''darker skinned'' Egyptians are open, even many of my fellow dark skinned sa3eedi and Fellahin would probably not like to be grouped into ''black'' African categories despite them fact many probably could pass as such in America.
Anyway, I am of the opinion that the bias of the modern Egyptians should not be used to determine the origins of the ancient Egyptians. I am firmly set in my belief that most rural Egyptians desend from the ancient Egyptians but I am willing to see the data and understand further positions that might oppose my own.
I believe you live in an area where there is a heavy concentraition of Egyptians. You should ask many of the recent immigrants how they feel about the issue.
If you need any more illumination just ask me. I will try to help you out the best way possible.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Black skin has become the most stigmatized characteristic of the human phenotype on this planet. It is considered a mark of inferiority spiritually, mentally, socially, physically and culturally. This stigmatization has nothing to do with fact and everything to do with social traditions and customs passed down by non blacks to justify the subjugation of blacks.
Any perusal of the facts renders such stereotypes instantly insane in ALL respects. Blacks were the FIRST people to practice spirituality, develop mentally, grow socially, populate the planet and give birth to phenotypes physically as well as the first to develop culturally. This is not a cause to brag about it is simply fact and renders any such attempts to pursue such logic strictly an exercise in pure insanity.
Many Arabs to this day ARE BLACK and there have always been blacks in Arabia since the beginning of time. This is precisely why non Arabs consider them mulattoes and "sand negroes" because they know full well that their ancestry is African mixed with other lighter skinned populations from central and Northern Asia. While lighter skinned Arabs consider themselves above darker skinned folks, most non Arabs still see them as not white enough, which is why they are instantly lumped in with blacks socially in non Arab countries. This is especially true for North Africans who are considered by almost ALL surrounding populations as mixed breeds, not white enough to be European (despite all the propaganda of the Eurocentrics about north Africa), not Arab enough to be Arabs and not African enough to be Africans. Hence that puts them in a strange position. Of course, Egypt being the center of the Arab world culturally, it is much easier for them to identify as Arab even though they carry more African genes in general than ARAB ones.
Therefore the question is not an accurate one, because no man can separate himself from who he is as he was created by nature. To go against nature is to go against yourself, which is the ultimate form of insanity and an insult to ones own spirit and any concept of a God that one may have.
But at the end of the day it is all about power. If those in power identify as Arabs and wealth and power is based on being able to prove Arab ancestry, then of course people will want to identify as Arabs, with the ultimate symbol of this being descent from the prophets family. That is all part of the history and process of Arabization. Nowhere else, has such effort been put into identifications of lineages and descent as in the Arab world and is purely part of the process by which Arabs made sure that they maintained themselves as being on the upper echelons of all societies which adopted Islam and "Arab" culture. But in all reality much of this is a farce as it is obvious that within the wider Islamic world TRUE ARABS are a minority. And anyone with any amount of understanding of history would know this.
quote:Blyden, the Negro eulogist of Islam in Africa, acknowledges that its "oriental aspect has become largely modified by shaping many of its traditional customs to the milder and more conciliatory disposition of the Negro ... In succeeding a debasing heathenism it has in many respects made compromises, so as occasionally to present a barren, hybrid character". These confessions shatter his contention that Islam has not made "degrading compromise with pagan superstitions"
quote: As we see the northern lobe of Africa from the Bight of Benin to Abyssinia, with Muslim fringes in Equatoria, Somalia and Zanguebar, looped to Mecca by the girdle of Islam, it seems at first as if Reclus must be right.* But second sight shows its unity and vastness to appeal not to reason but to imagination. To assert, as did the author of Shall Islam Rule Africa? that this "half of Africa is as Islamic as Persia", is unwittingly to betray a client; it can almost be maintained that Persia's eight million Islamites do not include one real Muslim. They are Shiites or sectarians, the heterodox and schismatic rivals of Sunnite or orthodox Musulmans. In Africa this other shape of Islam, "if shape it may be called that shape has none, or substance may be called that shadow seems", recalls Milton's picture of death: "What seemed his head the likeness of a kingly crown had on". The supremacy of Sudanese Islam over Negro society is less a reality than a semblance. If material limitations permitted, nearly a hundred tribes could be cited that have accepted Islam only in name when they have not rejected it utterly*. This fact means that the southern line is broken at scores of points. It also means that the strategic centers behind the inner in trenchments are rotten and sapped. Earth found the Hausa, a Saharo=Sudanese folk on the divide between the Chad and Sokotu basins, animated by little zeal. Lenz informs us that the Futa highlander and the Man- dingo have adopted Islam in form or not at all. Brun Renaud states that the Bambara and the Yolof themselves are mostly pagans. Bagirmi has merely been inoculated, multitudes of its tribes remaining pagans. Muhammad the Tunisian compared his fellow=religion- aries among Sudanese pagans to a ring in Saharan sands. In the Nile basin, from Khartum to Wadelai, Felkin and Wilson discovered the populations of Muslim Kordo to have scarcely any religious ideas; the Shilluk and their neighbors are only partly Muhammadan; and other Negroes — the Bari, Bongo, Dinka, Madi and Shuli — remain sheer heathen. If these source=regions of the Nile be under Muslim dominance, it is through Africanized Arabs extending their political power.
posted
Remember that there was a great deal of British influence by the 19th century and the slave trade was due to Europeans buying the slaves
"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L.
quote:As far as actual Arabization of the coast goes, evidence presented below suggests it began after the sixteenth century and reached its zenith in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.[108] The subtleties of this gradual shift are apparent in how the concept of a "civilized" person gradually altered. Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.[109]
posted
"Arabization" at the level that we see it today shows what huge impact European colonialism had
See bellow Sudan and Zanzibar, native African languages, Hausa was "a world-speech between Sudanese and Mediterranean Africa"
A possible pan-Bantu identity that may have been stifled by the European conquerers? "Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication"
quote:Of the group of Negro languages centering upon Lake Chad, the Hausa has become the most popular, and has traveled farthest.
Through large districts on both sides of the Binwe and Niger rivers it is invaluable as the circulating medium of thought. In extent of usefulness it surpasses all other single languages in inner Africa. It serves not only as the mother-tongue of fifteen millions of Negroes, but as a lingua franca between Sudanese tribes of difierent tongues, and even as a world-speech between Sudanese and Mediterranean Africa, It is remarkable for simplicity, elegance and wealth of vocabulary. It ranks among man's imperial languages—the Latin of Central Sudan—magnificent, rich and sonorous, beautiful and facile in grammatical structure; exhibiting a harmony in its word-forms, and a symphonal symmetry that few tongnes can equal.
On Bantu languages "The Uganda protectorate" By Harry Hamilton Johnston 1904
quote:The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication
posted
It is a sad and pathetic situation really. The stigma against being black and the Islamic pride over being "Arab" is the same reason why even northern Sudanese would rather be called 'green' than black [sic]!
Black is depicted in [Arabic] literature as something not good. That is why people are described as not Black but brown or green. Green in the Sudan means that their asl [ancestral origin] is not Negroid.
Abd al-Rahman al Bashir
The first color in rank is asfar. This literally means “yellow,” but is used interchangeably with ahmar to denote “whiteness.” The second is asmar. This literally means reddish, but it is used interchangeably to describe a range of color shades from light to dark brown… The third in ranking is akhdar. This literally means green, but it is used as a polite alternative to the word “black.” Last and least is azrag to mean “black,” which is the color of abid, (slave)… In order to avoid describing self as aswad (black), the collective Northern consciousness renamed the akhdar (green)… Whereas a very dark Northerner is only akhdar, an equally dark Southerner is bluntly aswad (black).
Al-Baqir al-Afifi Mukhtar
Sudanese passports never describe the holder as “black.” The description used for the overwhelming majority of the holders would be “green,” the standard color of the nation in official Northern eyes. Indeed, green is seen as the ideal Sudanese color of skin because it reflects a brown that is not too dark, giving associations with black Africa and possibly slavery, and is not too light, hinting at gypsy (halabi) or European Christian forbears, the infidel Khawajas.
Of course many modern Egyptians have the "luxury" of being 'asfar' or a "wheatish" color as they put it. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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