posted
Some people are concerned that African-Americans who accept that the ancient Egyptians were black are "claiming" the Egyptians' heritage for themselves even though most of them are descended from West Africans. The argument is that black Americans should not identify with an African people other than their own ancestors.
To be honest, I somewhat agree with this argument. I don't believe the descendants of West Africans should fancy themselves as being related to ancient Egyptians simply because ancient Egyptians were also black Africans. That would be like a white American descended from Germanic tribesmen claiming the heritage of ancient Greece and Rome simply because the Greeks and Romans were also white Europeans.
What do you guys think? Do you think it is okay for African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage?
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Europeans identify with ancient greece and rome even if they are not direct decendants of them simply beause it is apart of europe. and I would think most europeans are proud of europe.
why cant AAs just be proud of africa in the same way?
"African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage?"
silly question
yes because it is there heritage. AFRICAN heritage.
I dont think that they would actually claim to be a "ancient egyptian". they are simply proud "kemet" which was African just like they are African
I mean I am proud of the accomplishments of timbuctoo and the beauty of its people. does that mean that I am claiming to be an descendant?
Posts: 63 | Registered: Sep 2009
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Thanks to slavery and hybridization human of the African Diaspora are left grappling with finding a country, culture and tribe of identity. So yeah if it feels ood then claim the WHOLE CONTINENT, and especially EGYPT the true cradle of civilization.
I've been to Egypt and prefered ASWAN and it's people over any other city in the country...they preferred me too!
THE KINSHIP WAS BEAUTIFUL
-------------------- lifeAgift2 is the poster formerly know as lifeAgift. Couldn't rember the old password! Posts: 12 | From: In my RIGHT mind in the WRONG country | Registered: Oct 2006
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Hammer wrote: ---------------------------- Black Americans cannot claim anyone. For most making a living takes everything they have. BrandonP, how about wandering back to the real world. ----------------------------
People, notice that his reply is repleat with strawmen consisting of personal attacks and commentary about making a living which has nothing to do with the original post.
He also could not evidentually refute the factual evidence provided nor could he backup his wild lamenting claims with facts or evidence.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Should black Americans claim ancient Egypt?
First of all (you clown), as Finesse noted above, nobody on this board claims to be anything they're not, the thing that is being "claimed" here is the truth, and truth is that the ancient Egyptians were indigenous tropical Africans (culturally, biologically, linguistically etc..) and not southwest Asians nor Europeans.
Plain and simple!
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote: even though most of them are descended from West Africans
Provide evidence for your claim.
Everyone, lets play along and go along with BrandonP's pseudohistory.
Let's "pretend" that what he says is true, that "Most" AAs are descended from so called "west" Africans.
Even if we patronize (lol) BrandonP and go along with his wild claim, what difference does it make? Seeing as even if "Most" come from so called "west" Africa they still have ancestry from other parts of Africa and for that matter Asia as well.
Most people killed by the Germans in WWII were Russians. Does that mean we should not acknowledge Americans that were killed by the Germans in WWII?
Most Germans killed in WWII were killed by the Russians. Does that mean we should not acknowledge the role that Americans played in winning WWII?
Most people killed by the Japanese in WWII were Chinese. Does that mean we should not acknowledge the Americans that were killed by the Japanese in WWII?
Hey BrandonP, walk up to an American WWII veteran with his family members around and tell him his participation in WWII doesn't matter and should never be acknowledged and that he nor other Americans played no part in winning it.
Let us know how well it goes.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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Why don't you explain how 1 small area could have millions of people taken into slavery and still exist. According to your wild claims there should be no one left in so called "west" Africa.
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The problem here is that people don't understand how the slave trade worked. It was economic manipulation and since there were trade routes spread out throughout the continent Europeans sought to compete with African industries and this is why trade with Asia was essential. Since Africans had a hard time competing with these cheap goods it caused inflation and instability and became more and more reliant on the slave trade. Otherwise there is no explanation why they would have bothered to march people a thousand miles to sell to Europeans
In this how places like Darfur were negatively affected by the Trans-Atlantic slave trade
"The slave trade could not function successfully, they argued, unless they had direct access to cowry shells and Indian textiles."
"Early Globalization and the Slave Trade Trips around the world were essential for sustaining slavery" Robert Harms YaleGlobal , 9 May 2003
quote: The demise of the French East India Company in 1706 (it was later resurrected as the Company of the Indies) caused a problem for French slave traders. It was impossible for them to remain competitive in the slave trade without ready access to cowry shells and Indian textiles. So vital was the Asian trade to the slave trade that a consortium of merchants raised over a million livres to start a company to replace the defunct French East India Company. In requesting authorization from the French Council of Commerce, the merchants cited the difficulties they were having in obtaining the products of Asia that were vital for the slave trade. The slave trade could not function successfully, they argued, unless they had direct access to cowry shells and Indian textiles.
quote:Originally posted by markellion: It was not a west African slave trade it was an African slave trade
William Pitt, The Younger. 1759-1806.
352. From His Speech On The Abolition Op The Slave-trade . April 2, 1792.
Do you think nothing of the ruin and the miseries in which so many other individuals, still remaining in Africa, are involved, in consequence of carrying off so many myriads of people? Do you think nothing of their families which are left be- bind I of the connections which are broken ? of the friendships, attachments, and relationships that are burst asunder! Do you think nothing of the miseries in consequence, that are felt from generation to generation? of the privation of that happiness which might be communicated to them by the introduction of civilization, and of mental and moral improvement? A happiness which you withhold them so long as you permit the slave-trade to continue. What do you know of the internal state of Africa? You have carried on a trade to that quarter of the globe from this civilized and enlightened country. but such a trade, that, instead of diffusing either knowledge or wealth, it has been the check to every laudable pursuit. Instead of any fail interchange of commodities; instead of conveying to them, from this highly favored land, any means of improvement; you carry with you that noxious plant by which everything is withered and blasted; under whose shade nothing that is useful or profitable to Africa will eves flourish or take root. Long as that continent has been known to navigators, the extreme line and boundaries of its coasts is all with which Europe is yet become acquainted; while other countries in the same parallel of latitude, through a happier system of intercourse, have reaped the blessings of a mutually beneficial commerce. But as to the whole interior of that continent you are, by your own principles of commerce, as yet entirely shut out: Africa is known to you only in its skirts. Yet here you are able to infuse a poison that spreads its contagious effects from one end of it to the other, which penetrates to its very center, corrupting every part to which it reaches. You there subvert the whole order of nature; you aggravate every natural barbarity, and furnish to every man living on that continent motives for committing, under the name and pretext of commerce, acts of perpetual violence and perfidy
But slaves are the staple article of the traffic; and though a considerable number may have been born near the sea, I believe the bulk of them are brought from far. I have reason to think that some travel more than a thousand miles, before they reach the sea coast. Whether there may be convicts amongst these likewise, or what proportion they may bear to those who are taken prisoners in war, it is impossible to know...
I verily believe, that the far greater part of the wars, in Africa, would cease, if the Europeans would cease to tempt them, by offering goods for slaves. And though they do not bring legions into the field, their wars are bloody. I believe, the captives reserved for sale are fewer than the slain.
I have not sufficient data to warrant calculation but, I suppose, not less than one hundred thousand slaves are exported, annually, from all parts of Africa, and that more than one-half of these are exported in English bottoms.
If but an equal number are killed in war, and if many of these wars are kindled by the incentive of selling their prisoners ; what an annual accumulation of blood must there be, crying against the nations of Europe concerned in this trade, and particularly against our own!
posted
Its true though. People talk about the "Arab slave trade" but the "Arabs" apparently didn't care to put forth the capital to sustain it. And is he including Swahili as being Arabs?
quote: Every British subject taking any part, direct or indirect, in the trade, is guilty of felony ; and if this is distinctly known, and it is known also that every effort will be made by our Bombay Government to trace home to the offender any such act, and if need be, to punish it with the utmost rigour of the law, we shall have at once done much to destroy the infamous traffic. For Dr. Livingstone is no doubt perfectly right in saying that, whilst the Arabs are ready enough to find the men who will conduct the actual risks of the trade, they have not the wealth necessary to advance the capital required.
' It is well known,' he declares in a despatch to Lord Granville, received on the 18th of August of this year, ' that the slave-trade in this country is carried on almost entirely with the money of Ludha Damji, the richest Banian in Zanzibar, and that of other Banian British subjects. The Banians advance the goods required, and the Arabs proceed inland as their agents, perform the trading or rather murder; and when slaves and ivory are brought to the coast the Arabs sell the slaves; the Banians pocket the price, and adroitly let the odium rest on their agents.'—Despatches, p. 10.
Moreover, as the Customs are farmed at Zanzibar by Banians, many of whom are British subjects, or living under British protection; and as a very large proportion of these Customs is levied openly and avowedly from the duty on slaves here in another way, the subjects of the British Crown are mixed directly up with the forbidden trade in its most open manifestations.
posted
Dirk you're the only nut here, well....besides Hammer/Patriot of course.
Now, let's look at the evidence put together, and see what you have to say about the following...shall we?
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
Some people are concerned that African-Americans who accept that the ancient Egyptians were black are "claiming" the Egyptians' heritage for themselves even though most of them are descended from West Africans. The argument is that black Americans should not identify with an African people other than their own ancestors.
To be honest, I somewhat agree with this argument. I don't believe the descendants of West Africans should fancy themselves as being related to ancient Egyptians simply because ancient Egyptians were also black Africans. That would be like a white American descended from Germanic tribesmen claiming the heritage of ancient Greece and Rome simply because the Greeks and Romans were also white Europeans.
What do you guys think? Do you think it is okay for African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage? ------------------------------
This argument represents a hypocritical standard not required of Europeans. No one thinks it unusual for white English, or Americans or Swedes to claim and celebrate the Greek heritage. No one disputes that the Greeks were European. But all of a sudden, when US Blacks assert that (a) Egypt is indeed in Africa, (b) Egypt forms part of African cultural stratum as proved by numerous mainstream scientists, and (c) were indigenous Africans, then white hypocrisy rears its head. Points a, b, and c above are all scientifically established facts, not something conjured up by so-called “Afrocentrists”.
Another element of white hypocrisy is how it swiftly glides over white appropriation of all things Egyptian, from blatantly inaccurate racial claims that the ancients were white, to popular Egyptomania, to appropriation of Egyptians iconography, symbols, building styles and a host of other things. White hypocrisy piously objects to “US Blacks” while continuing the biggest cultural appropriation and ripoffs of ancient Egypt.
As for what so called “West Africans” should or should not think - that is also a dubious concept. Ancient Egypt was populated by the movements of peoples from the Sahara, as was West Africa heavily, with both areas drawing from populations movements in East Africa and ultimately further south. The Sahara was once a lush greenbelt extending across a third of Africa. People moved into “West Africa” from the Saharan greenbelt, sharing movement also with East Africa and further “sub-Saharan” Africa. Artificially focusing on “West Africa” as if it is some alien island is bogus. There is a common heritage of movement and population via the Sahara among both regions, and they are inextricably linked as mainstream researchers clearly show. (See Archaeology and Language: Correlating archaeological and linguistic hypotheses By R. Blench, Matthew Spriggs) And as for West Africa and Egypt, there are plenty of cultural strands linking the two regions together. This is the standard stuff anthropologists do, just as they analyze cultural links between ancient Greece and Anatolia. No one thinks such links are unusual. But it is only when black folk start making the same kind of analysis involving the Nile valley that then arises the hypocritical - oh no… we can’t have that. Explorer’s blog breaks down some of these links nicely: http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/11/examples-of-cultural-similarities.html
. Brandon P further says: That would be like a white American descended from Germanic tribesmen claiming the heritage of ancient Greece and Rome simply because the Greeks and Romans were also white Europeans.
The whole premise of your point is flawed. Can you show where credible Afrocentrists are “claiming Egypt” as a West African civilization? You made the claim. What evidence do you have to back it up? Can you show where Diop, or Asante, or Van Sertima said Egypt is a West African civilization?
And as for white Americans claiming this or that about Greece, that is precisely what whites did in the past, and do at the present time- from various phases of American education, to building styles, to drama, to language borrowings, and many more. When Poe’s poem mentioned the “glory that was Greece” everyone knows that he considers such glory the common heritage of modern white Americans. But when US blacks dare to study the glory that was Egypt, oh no, well that is forbidden.. Part of your argument is based on hypocrisy.
Finally, if we are going to talk about “claims”, Black Americans have more of a claim physically and genetically to the Ancient Egyptians that whites. Hapologroup E links together both West Africans and ancient inhabitants of the Nile Valley. As far as skeletal limb proportions, US Blacks cluster closer to the ancient Egyptians than either whites or “Middle Easterners.” If we are going to rank “claims” then whites are at the bottom of the list, but that doesn’t stop them from massive appropriation of things Egyptian.
take your pick – DNA..
or limb proportions… In head to head comparisons with US Blacks, the Black Americans clustered closer to the Egyptians than whites. In head to head comparisons with Middle Easterners, the Egyptians cluster closer to black Africans than whites or Middle Easterners.
PS: can you produce the information showing credible “Afrocentrists” claiming that Egypt was a West African civilization? Still waiting…
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Man your stuff is weak. Get on out of here with your nonsense. You can tell its weak because they run from my historically documented evidence. They avoid me because I come correct with indisputable facts and evidence.
Now watch how they will challenge your conjecture.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
^ Ignoring the frustrated demented male prostitute above.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Some people are concerned that African-Americans who accept that the ancient Egyptians were black are "claiming" the Egyptians' heritage for themselves even though most of them are descended from West Africans. The argument is that black Americans should not identify with an African people other than their own ancestors.
To be honest, I somewhat agree with this argument. I don't believe the descendants of West Africans should fancy themselves as being related to ancient Egyptians simply because ancient Egyptians were also black Africans. That would be like a white American descended from Germanic tribesmen claiming the heritage of ancient Greece and Rome simply because the Greeks and Romans were also white Europeans.
What do you guys think? Do you think it is okay for African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage?
The fact of the matter is that as black Africans, West Africans ARE related to other Africans including northeast Africans like Egyptians and Sudanese. Would you deny West Africans and African Americans as being related to Sudanese??
Another fact of the matter is despite the northwest European heritage of most white Americans, most whites still DO try to claim relation to Greeks. Which is why we here more about Greeks and Romans than we do Celts or Germanics.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Another fact of the matter is despite the northwest European heritage of most white Americans, most whites still DO try to claim relation to Greeks. Which is why we here more about Greeks and Romans than we do Celts or Germanics.
That is indeed true unfortunately. In fact, I suspect the reason American whites often claim ancient civilizations like Greece, Rome, Egypt, Babylon, and Israel is because we're so ashamed of our own Germano-Celtic heritage. The problem is that we buy into this mentality that a culture is superior if it is more technologically advanced, and we don't like the idea that our own people were not always the most technologically advanced.
That mentality seems to be peculiarly Western. You don't see Samoans or Sioux claiming ancient Egyptian or Greek civilization. They are instead proud of their real heritages, regardless of how "primitive" Westerners judge those heritages to be. Only Westernized people, white and black alike, feel the need to disown their own heritage in favor of another people's.
I believe white Americans should embrace our Germano-Celtic identities instead of writing them off as "barbaric" and trying to find whites in ancient Egypt, Babylon, or whatever. Our pre-Christian ancestors may not have built huge pyramids or anything, but they were still more than the one-dimensional barbarians we imagine them to be. We should feel proud of them rather than identifying with any "Mediterranean" civs.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I for one don't see anything wrong with North-Europeans claiming some general kinship with Greece or Rome..being that it's on the same continent,contacts...ideas and even genes were transfered,between North and South...what I am against is Hellenism/Nordisim..to push a bogus idea that they were the iniciators of all things civilized and their civilizations remaind pristine and without influence from other parts of the world especially south of the Med.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Well, since i'm of continental descent i can claim it (the specified ancient region) for most of its types of people at least until some time after Dynastic Km.t Nw.t.
However, even though i'm possibly/likely [per phenetic and histrical data) of that descent as well as others, i really don't give a phun# out side of practical purposes what the hell some1 says is in my blood.
More importantly IMHO, while i'm American i sincerely think their culture there was ghetto-sophisticated as opposed to normatively-prudent .. i see a pretty flipped world..
also this thread sounds stupid, hte question is tired. Honestly -- should non-BAs even give a fcuck and do they realy have a say??!
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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How'd You Do? 0-3 correct: You sleep with the fishes 4-6 correct: Standup guy 7-9 correct: Made man
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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believe white Americans should embrace our Germano-Celtic identities instead of writing them off as "barbaric" and trying to find whites in ancient Egypt, Babylon, or whatever. Our pre-Christian ancestors may not have built huge pyramids or anything, but they were still more than the one-dimensional barbarians we imagine them to be. We should feel proud of them rather than identifying with any "Mediterranean" civs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Djehuti, You have said some really dumb things in your time but this might take the cake. Nobody rejects Celtic heritage.
-------------------- The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of tyrants. Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: believe white Americans should embrace our Germano-Celtic identities instead of writing them off as "barbaric" and trying to find whites in ancient Egypt, Babylon, or whatever. Our pre-Christian ancestors may not have built huge pyramids or anything, but they were still more than the one-dimensional barbarians we imagine them to be. We should feel proud of them rather than identifying with any "Mediterranean" civs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Djehuti, You have said some really dumb things in your time but this might take the cake. Nobody rejects Celtic heritage.
Djehuti didn't "say" that you nitwit, BrandonP did!
Btw no one can top the dumbness you put forward to this board!
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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BrandonP wrote: -------------------------- Only Westernized people, white and black alike, feel the need to disown their own heritage in favor of another people's. --------------------------
How are so called ""westernized" blacks disowning their own heritage"?
On what facts are you basing this on? Or is this another one of your racist wild claims?
Everyone is noticing how you are posting racial propagandic idiocy and never responding to questions when they are asked of you to explain your bizarre statements.
You are making some of this forum's participants wonder if you are not indeed yet another sick in the head white troll from the race loon forums.
BrandonP we're waiting for your response.....
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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^ LOL No doubt the abused euro-slut-boy is just mad because Brandon insulted his heritage. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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AA who claim AE heritage are what I call culture terrorists. They hijack other people's history and culture. AA have no genetic, cultural, historical or linguistic affinity with AE. The only people who can legitimately claim AE are the people residing in the area today.
-------------------- A recovering Afronut Posts: 604 | Registered: May 2009
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^^You don't get it. It's not a matter of what I, nor you, or anyone feels, nor is it a matter of our own personal opinions or agenda, if you're not going to talk or discuss the facts presented here (based on years and years of bio-anthropological studies), then nobody cares what you have to say or feel!
The following is what it is, deal with it, or get lost!
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
Btw, as I've said to you before in my previous postings no one here is claiming to be the Egyptians ancient or modern if they're not.
Point is and I'll reiterate it clearly, is to get the truth out there, since there are people like you that have sour feelings about the ancient Egyptians being indigenous tropical Africans, sorry but bio-anthropological data proves this time and time again!
What are you gonna do about it? Wine and wine again about how Afro-centrists are conspiring with prestigious bio-anthropologists to make you feel bad?
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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More and More studies are coming out linking Ancient Egypt to Africa.
The only one stating an opinion is you we deal with FACTS from the studies like these:
Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture
Christopher Ehret Professor of History, African Studies Chair University of California at Los Angeles
Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots.
The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt.
Sir Alan Gardiner: These were long-headed-dolicocephalic is the learned term-and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock , a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time." (pg. 392; Egypt of the Pharaohs 1966)
X-ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980).
Courtesy of James Harris and Edward Wente:
In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads.The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults.
The people who bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present, are the Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians; page 530
Edward Lane Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians
The period when sub-Saharan Africa was most influential in Egypt was a time when neither Egypt, as we understand it culturally, nor the Sahara, as we understand it geographically, existed. Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472
Determination of optimal rehydration, fixation and staining methods for histological and immunohistochemical analysis of mummified soft tissues
A-M Mekota1, M Vermehren2
Biotechnic & Histochemistry 2005, 80(1): 7_/13
"Materials and methods In 1997, the German Institute for Archaeology headed an excavation of the tombs of the nobles in Thebes-West, Upper Egypt. At this time, three types of tissues were sampled from different mummies: meniscus (fibrocartilage), skin, and placenta. Archaeological findings suggest that the mummies dated from the New Kingdom (approximately 1550_/1080 BC)..... The basal epithelial cells were packed with melanin as expected for specimens of Negroid origin."
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). Sonia Zakrzewski (2003)
"On the Origin of the Egyptians. Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North." Mary Lefkowitz
"Black populations of the Horn of Africa (Tigré and Somalia) fit well into Egyptian variations." (Froment, Alain, Origines du peuplement de l’Égypte ancienne: l’apport de l’anthropobiologie, Archéo-Nil 2 (Octobre 1992), 79-98)
Unless you have a proper rebuttal for these FACTS, I think that the question of whether the AE were Black Africans is clear.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Finesse: Europeans identify with ancient greece and rome even if they are not direct decendants of them simply beause it is apart of europe. and I would think most europeans are proud of europe.
why cant AAs just be proud of africa in the same way?
"African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage?"
silly question
yes because it is there heritage. AFRICAN heritage.
I dont think that they would actually claim to be a "ancient egyptian". they are simply proud "kemet" which was African just like they are African
I mean I am proud of the accomplishments of timbuctoo and the beauty of its people. does that mean that I am claiming to be an descendant?
Afro Americans come from Western and Central Africa they don't come from Egypt so no, they shouldn't claim coming from Egypt.
Europeans do NOT claim to come from Greece they just claim Greece started civilization and they are thankful for it. Europeans don't deny or are ashamed of their heritage like Afro Americans are with trying to claim Egypt and not giving two shiits about where they come from in West and Central Africa, sad if you ask me .
Posts: 70 | Registered: May 2009
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The_Killer_Wolofi - If you try real hard, then one day you will be able to post something that is actually true.
In the mean time: As a Black North American you naturally consider yourself the center of the Black world, but you are not, and not all Blacks in the Americas share your heritage.
Consider this; not all Blacks in the Americas got there as a result of the slave trade. An unknown number are indigenous people. Some came as free men and women. Of those that did come as slaves, 80% came from the Caribbean, which got it's slaves from all over, including East Africa - though most did come from West Africa.
And NO! neither Greeks nor Whites started civilization - you really should have been able to get that one right.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Afrocentrism is a religion. In religion you can believe in any thing under the sun. Afronuts are doing nothing more than role playing descendants of AE.
-------------------- A recovering Afronut Posts: 604 | Registered: May 2009
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kahanyah - On your own thread I exposed your ignorance, why not attend to that before spreading your thin mind any further.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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only in the delusional world you created called Delusiona do you expose my 'ignorance.'
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: kahanyah - On your own thread I exposed your ignorance, why not attend to that before spreading your thin mind any further.
posted
kahanyah - Anyone who would go on an ancient civilization web forum, and ask why the people in those ancient places are White or White like, obviously doesn't know the first thing about those places. That is what you did, therefore you are ignorant - and lazy for not reading about those places in the first place.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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i suggest you go back and reread the thread. Perhaps this time you will see the sarcasm and ridicule.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: kahanyah - Anyone who would go on an ancient civilization web forum, and ask why the people in those ancient places are White or White like, obviously doesn't know the first thing about those places. That is what you did, therefore you are ignorant - and lazy for not reading about those places in the first place.
The humble Petition of Francis, Daniel, Hammond and Samuel, (Free Moors) in behalf of themselves and their wives Fatima, Flora, Sarah and Clarinda, Humbly Sheweth That your Petitioners some years past had the misfortune while fighting in the defence of their Country, to be captured with their wives and made prisoners of War by one of the Kings of Africa. That a certain Captain Clark had them delivered to him on a promise that they should be redeemed by the Emperor of Morocco’s Ambassador then residing in England, in order to have them returned to their own Country: Instead of which he brought them to this State, and sold them for slaves. Since that period they have by the greatest industry been enabled to purchase their freedom from their respective Masters: And now prayeth your Honorable House, That as free born subjects of a Prince now in Alliance with these United States; that they may not be considered as subject to a Law of this State (now in force) called the negro law: but if they should unfortunately be guilty of any crime or misdemeanor against the Laws of the Land, that they may have a just trial by a Lawful Jury.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^^You don't get it. It's not a matter of what I, nor you, or anyone feels, nor is it a matter of our own personal opinions or agenda, if you're not going to talk or discuss the facts presented here (based on years and years of bio-anthropological studies), then nobody cares what you have to say or feel!
The following is what it is, deal with it, or get lost!
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
Btw, as I've said to you before in my previous postings no one here is claiming to be the Egyptians ancient or modern if they're not.
Point is and I'll reiterate it clearly, is to get the truth out there, since there are people like you that have sour feelings about the ancient Egyptians being indigenous tropical Africans, sorry but bio-anthropological data proves this time and time again!
What are you gonna do about it? Wine and wine again about how Afro-centrists are conspiring with prestigious bio-anthropologists to make you feel bad?
so what studies that says pyramids were built by Alliens!
studies that says that jews built the pyramids
huge studies,my doubts is because some of these studies contradict some texts in the BILE and Koran so I ca not make sure 100% where Egyptians really came from
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: ^^You don't get it. It's not a matter of what I, nor you, or anyone feels, nor is it a matter of our own personal opinions or agenda, if you're not going to talk or discuss the facts presented here (based on years and years of bio-anthropological studies), then nobody cares what you have to say or feel!
The following is what it is, deal with it, or get lost!
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
Btw, as I've said to you before in my previous postings no one here is claiming to be the Egyptians ancient or modern if they're not.
Point is and I'll reiterate it clearly, is to get the truth out there, since there are people like you that have sour feelings about the ancient Egyptians being indigenous tropical Africans, sorry but bio-anthropological data proves this time and time again!
What are you gonna do about it? Wine and wine again about how Afro-centrists are conspiring with prestigious bio-anthropologists to make you feel bad?
so what studies that says pyramids were built by Alliens!
studies that says that jews built the pyramids
huge studies,my doubts is because some of these studies contradict some texts in the BILE and Koran so I ca not make sure 100% where Egyptians really came from
Of course I was correct and you still don't understand, maybe you don't want to.
I'm talking about the numerous up to date scientific bio-anthropological studies I.e., cranio-facially, linguistically, skeletally, genetically, archaeologically etc.....
Only when all of the areas mentioned above are analyzed can one even come to a elaborate conclusion in this case about the origins of the ancient Egyptians.
Like the following quote which notes a said discipline contributing to the fact that ancient Egyptians were tropically adapted Africans and not cold adapted non Africans.
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
^^^For starters atleast deal with the above, if not like I said before simply get lost, nobody is here projecting their own opinions (well atleast I'm not), and we'd all appreciate if you wouldn't relay your own (probably biased) opinion, but instead it would great if you present facts!!
Btw, what studies say Jews or aliens built the pyramids? Do tell......??
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Btw, what studies say Jews or aliens built the pyramids? Do tell......??
Tha movies man tha movies...didn't yall see Stargate the movie and the T.V series...plus a hole heap o documentaries that sayz so!!
Forget what ur ol collage professer told u about some ol bone measurements and cold adopted this and hot adopted that... Jewzz and Ham is not da only ting for breakfast anymore..ya need some milk in dat coffee too. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
^at Brada ,well you have at to take a look at the claims of the jews of today to know how insane they are!
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"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa
I would be grateful if anyone gave me the web link of this!
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
whether aa have very low self-esteem, have no nation or culture to hold onto is a non-issue. a good part of aa's are descendants of west african slaves...west africans came from east africa therefore we can be proud of a nation that we have kinship with because of them being black and african. i am a descendant of west african slaves; i have a reason to be proud!!
-------------------- Occupation: TRUTH!! Posts: 303 | From: Inside my Mind | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^at Brada ,well you have at to take a look at the claims of the jews of today to know how insane they are!
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"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa
I would be grateful if anyone gave me the web link of this!
What good will that do? You'll simply deny it anyway, since I already provided you the link on several occasions...If you bothered to scroll up you'll see I posted the pages.
quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: Dirk you're the only nut here, well....besides Hammer/Patriot of course.
Now, let's look at the evidence put together, and see what you have to say about the following...shall we?
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Some people are concerned that African-Americans who accept that the ancient Egyptians were black are "claiming" the Egyptians' heritage for themselves even though most of them are descended from West Africans. The argument is that black Americans should not identify with an African people other than their own ancestors.
To be honest, I somewhat agree with this argument. I don't believe the descendants of West Africans should fancy themselves as being related to ancient Egyptians simply because ancient Egyptians were also black Africans. That would be like a white American descended from Germanic tribesmen claiming the heritage of ancient Greece and Rome simply because the Greeks and Romans were also white Europeans.
What do you guys think? Do you think it is okay for African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage?
There has been a great deal of effort to deny the Africaness of Egypt. Now it is true that most West Africans are to Egyptians what Samoans are to the Chinese. However, the point is that Egypt is an African civilization that all Africans should be able to take glory in. So if African Americans would like to fancy themselves as wealthy Egyptians then I say why not. Though it is sometimes rather silly looking but not anymore than Europeans doing the same thing. Just look at the Sphinx in Las Vegas - enough said!
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Though it is sometimes rather silly looking but not anymore than Europeans doing the same thing. Just look at the Sphinx in Las Vegas - enough said!
One thing I will say is that if any of the major American "racial" groups should claim ancient Egypt, it should be black Americans. Every time I see a white person dressed up as an ancient Egyptian, I laugh. It's like having a Chinese person posing as a Greek hoplite!
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Some people are concerned that African-Americans who accept that the ancient Egyptians were black are "claiming" the Egyptians' heritage for themselves even though most of them are descended from West Africans. The argument is that black Americans should not identify with an African people other than their own ancestors.
To be honest, I somewhat agree with this argument. I don't believe the descendants of West Africans should fancy themselves as being related to ancient Egyptians simply because ancient Egyptians were also black Africans. That would be like a white American descended from Germanic tribesmen claiming the heritage of ancient Greece and Rome simply because the Greeks and Romans were also white Europeans.
What do you guys think? Do you think it is okay for African-Americans to consider ancient Egypt as part of their heritage?
Now it is true that most West Africans are to Egyptians what Samoans are to the Chinese.
strange you would say this cause their are west africans who can trace their lineages back to the pharoahs. no gonna argue with you are anyone else about this cause it ain't that serious.
Posts: 303 | From: Inside my Mind | Registered: May 2005
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