posted
You're helping the trolls by responding to their threads, you keep them at top, if not they would wither to the bottom and die. They come and post a few nitwit topics at a time, and you guys all keep them going by responding, their are more responses from you guys, then the bigoted clowns that created the threads. True moderation would be nice, but simply not responding can also help a lot.
Remember Egmond Codfried's numerous thread spamming or even Marc Washington's were always ignored and what happened to them? They disappeared....so stop responding to them, because in actuality you're letting them run the flow of the forum, if they have something to say let them respond in one of the numerous scholarly threads "we" create, if not ignore them.
They don't want serious debate, they want to simply disrupt the flow of the forum and have as of lately succeeded by suckering you guys into their childish topic spamming....they want to disrupt the flow of the forum with non scholarly debates, because they know Egyptsearch is the place where they get served! Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jimmy Walker is a psychotic troll we picked up from Arguewitheveryone (aka MediterraneanPride).
Kayanyah/Afronut Slayer is a more deceptive troll. He appeared to be seriously trying to debate us at first then degenerated into racist lunacy. I guess they can only keep up the act for so long.
I agree that it is best to ignore the trolls. It's hard though because some people come here to post when they are bored and they post in the threads that they see.
Posts: 647 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: It's hard though because some people come here to post when they are bored and they post in the threads that they see.
But that's the point, they see the threads because the threads stay on top, which is because the regulars get suckered into responding....stop responding and the threads will go to the bottom.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Morpheus: Jimmy Walker is a psychotic troll we picked up from Arguewitheveryone (aka MediterraneanPride).
"picked up" how??
As a friend of mine says, wade in dirty water long enough and you catch parasites. That Arguewitheveryone website is a debacle on the verge of becoming a stormfront sometimes. You guys really need to stop hanging there or at least keep Egyptsearch out your mouths or rather out of your posts!
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: You're helping the trolls by responding to their threads, you keep them at top, if not they would wither to the bottom and die. They come and post a few nitwit topics at a time, and you guys all keep them going by responding, their are more responses from you guys, then the bigoted clowns that created the threads. True moderation would be nice, but simply not responding can also help a lot.
Remember Egmond Codfried's numerous thread spamming or even Marc Washington's were always ignored and what happened to them? They disappeared....so stop responding to them, because in actuality you're letting them run the flow of the forum, if they have something to say let them respond in one of the numerous scholarly threads "we" create, if not ignore them.
They don't want serious debate, they want to simply disrupt the flow of the forum and have as of lately succeeded by suckering you guys into their childish topic spamming....they want to disrupt the flow of the forum with non scholarly debates, because they know Egyptsearch is the place where they get served!
Oh, I agree...I try not to post in them...Plus its up to us Mind, Dj, Brada to create more Threads dealing with Africana and other History related topics...It should be our duty to further our knowledge on topics that need to be discusssed...A Math thread, an Engineering/Arch. thread, a Thread about anything other than the race of the Egyptians...frankly the Race thing is rather old and boring.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Some of you still don't get it (I mean those of you who aren't trolling from time to time your self).
Who gives a **** about what kind of troller TrollerA is compared to TrollerB?
The idea is to ignore trollers not analyze them? The idea is to post on-topic subject matter not shoot back your own trolling everytime a troller posts in a legitimate thread.
But then some of you love the trollers and trolling more or about as much as you do contributing stuff above the Jerry Springer level.
posted
The new Nubian craniometric study showing how closely the 2 peoples were related should provide food for thought. Here is the Bass' post consolidated. It confirms many older studies and is yet another slap in the face for those who try to postulate a black foreign Nubia "versus" Egyptians. If anything the 2 peoples are the most related in the Nile Valley. Reputed "racial" pictures are merely showing 2 variants of the same closely related people. -----------------------------------------------------------
An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?
Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.
Godde K. Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, 250 South Stadium Hall, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. kgodde@utk.edu
Many authors have speculated on Nubian biological evolution. Because of the contact Nubians had with other peoples, migration and/or invasion (biological diffusion) were originally thought to be the biological mechanism for skeletal changes in Nubians. Later, a new hypothesis was put forth, the in situ hypothesis. The new hypothesis postulated that Nubians evolved in situ, without much genetic influence from foreign populations. This study examined 12 Egyptian and Nubian groups in an effort to explore the relationship between the two populations and to test the in situ hypothesis. Data from nine cranial nonmetric traits were assessed for an estimate of biological distance, using Mahalanobis D(2) with a tetrachoric matrix. The distance scores were then input into principal coordinates analysis (PCO) to depict the relationships between the two populations. PCO detected 60% of the variation in the first two principal coordinates. A plot of the distance scores revealed only one cluster; the Nubian and Egyptian groups clustered together. The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated. The Mahalanobis D2 analysis uncovered close affinities between Nubians and Egyptians. Table 3 lists the Mahalanobis D2 distance matrix. As there is no significance testing that is available to be applied to this form of Mahalanobis distances, the biodistance scores must be interpreted in relation to one another, rather than on a general scale. In some cases, the statistics reveal that the Egyptian samples were more similar to Nubian samples than to other Egyptian samples (e.g. Gizeh and Hesa/Biga) and vice versa (e.g. Badari and Kerma, Naqada and Christian). These relationships are further depicted in the PCO plot (Fig. 2). Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians. The predynastic Egyptian samples clustered together (Badari and Naqada), while Gizeh most closely groups with the Lisht sample. The first two principal coordinates from PCO account for 60% of the variation in the samples. The graph from PCO is basically a pictorial representation of the distance matrix and interpretations from the plot mirror the Mahalanobis D2 matrix.
Discussion
The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians. If Nubians and Egyptians were not biologically similar, one would expect the scores to separately cluster by population (e.g. Nubians compared to Nubians would have small biological distances, and Nubians compared to Egyptians would have high biological distances). However, this was not the case in the current analysis and the results suggest homogeneity between the two populations. Many of the samples that are similar to one another, between the two populations, are separated by great amounts of time (e.g. Kerma and Badari). These similarities over time make sense because, as Konigsberg (1990) asserted, as time elapses, related groups become more genetically similar. In order to explicate the meaning behind all of these findings, the results here must be tempered by the DNA evidence. Both mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999) and Y-Chromosome data (Hassan et al., 2008; Keita, 2005; Lucotte and Mercier, 2003) indicate that migrations, usually bidirectional, occurred along the Nile. Thus, the osteological material used in this analysis also supports the DNA evidence.
Interpretation of the results framed by several of the groups’ histories helps to elucidate the subtle relationships depicted in the PCO scatter plot. The predynastic sample from Badari occupies a complex position in Egyptian history. The Badarians are Egypt's oldest agriculturalists and produced some of the earliest known pottery (Hassan, 1986) that predated state formation in Egypt. Badarian crania, in comparison to dynastic groups, are slight and less robust than their later counterparts (Angel, 1972; Morant, 1935; Stoessiger, 1927). Stoessiger (1927) likened the gracile nature of the Badarians to the gracile nature of the people from Naqada, but she pointed out that the Badarians are more prognathic. On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990), while the Gizeh sample clustered with the Maghreb and Sedment (Dynasty IX Egyptians) (Keita, 1990).
Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. The unusual grouping of Badari, Naqada, Kerma, and the later Dynastic pooled sample may have been a product of the mixed nature of the pooled sample. The effects of pooled samples have been demonstrated in Nubians by obscuring relationships and creating a falsely close affinity between it and the samples it clusters with (Godde, 2009a). Moreover, affinities among the Badarian, Naqada, and Kerma samples have been revealed by other authors (Keita, 1990; Nutter, 1958) and it is no surprise that this relationship exists in the data here.
Relationships among Badari, Naqada, and Kerma have not always been overt in the skeletal data. Berry et al. (1967) concluded from their nonmetric analysis that their Badarian sample differed significantly from Naqada and Kerma, but was closely related to the Gizeh sample. Their study included the same samples as this analysis, but yielded results that are different from the current study and the craniometric research. Berry et al. (1967) employed a completely different range of statistics, which may account for the difference between the two conclusions. However, Berry and her coauthors also noted homogeneity across all the Egyptian groups, including Naqada and those that pre- and post-date the sample. This is indeed the case here, as is evidenced in the PCO plot; the Egyptians appear to be relatively homogeneously grouped. Some Badarian crania also classified well with the Gizeh sample (Keita, 1990).
The close clustering of Badari and Naqada with Kerma exemplifies the possible relationship of Nubians to Egyptians. Originally, the Nubian A-Group was thought to be Badarian in origin (Reisner, 1910). However, later work (Adams, 1977; Godde, 2009a) established that the A-Group were actually Nubian. Comparisons of C-Group and Pan-Grave Nubians to Badari and Hierakonpolis separate Badari from the other samples, indicating no biological affinities with these earlier Nubian groups (Godde, 2009b). The reoccurring notation of Kerma affinities with Egyptian groups is not entirely surprising. Kerma was an integral part of the trade between Egypt and Nubia. Collett (1933) concluded that Kerma was originally inhabited by Egyptians with neighboring Nubian settlements. Her investigation of the site pointed towards continuous Egyptian occupation of some sort at the site throughout the Kerma time period. This continued presence at Kerma is an optimal condition for gene flow to occur between the two populations.
Nubian groups have also been scrutinized as to their relationship with other Nubians. Both the Meroitic and X-Group were originally postulated to be foreign peoples migrating into Lower Nubia (Adams, 1968; Nielsen, 1970). These ideas were based on changes in pottery around the beginning of each of the respective time periods. However, the archaeological evidence actually showed slow change in form over time (Adams, 1977) and the biological evidence demonstrated a similar trend in the skeletal data (e.g. Godde, in press; Van Gerven et al., 1977). These conclusions negate the possibility of invasion or migration causing the shifts in time periods. The results in this study are consistent with prior work; the Meroites and X-Group cluster with the remaining Nubian population and are not differentiated.
Despite the biological similarities between the two populations, the Nubians appear relatively homogeneous. The homogeneity is consistent with Carlson and Van Gerven's (1979) in situ hypothesis, but contradicts the findings of Buzon (2006). Buzon (2006) found a high level of heterogeneity in the Nubian samples she examined, including individuals from Kerma and the C-Group. Moreover, the Egyptian samples in her study were homogeneous overall, consistent with Berry et al. (1967) and the results in this paper. However, the levels of homogeneity appear to be similar within Nubians and within Egyptians in this study. The differences between this research and Buzon's (2006) work may be related to the statistics used. Buzon's (2006) goal was not to look at biological affinities; rather, she was trying to establish identity among her individuals by associating it with archaeological material. While this paper used a biological distance approach to investigate past population relationships, her paper used factor analysis, principal components, and a least squares regression. Although these (hers and those used here) statistics all have a solid methodological basis, they measure population relationships in two different manners and the results between them are not entirely comparable.
Gene flow may account for the homogeneity across these Nubian and Egyptian groups and is consistent with the biological diffusion precept. Small geographic distances between groups allow for the exchange of genes. One of the Nubian groups in this analysis is located in Upper Egypt (Hesa/Biga), near Egyptian occupation, and contact between the two populations may have been commonplace... Moreover, some groups of Nubians allied with the Egyptians for the conquest of Nubian areas, primarily during Dynasty I (Trigger, 1976). Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, trade between Nubians and Egyptians flourished at Kerma and Meroe, during the time periods named after the sites, and enabled contact for potential gene flow. As a result of their respective histories, the multitude of interactions between them, geographic locations, and their biological composition, it appears that gene flow was possibly occurring between the two populations.
The similarities uncovered by this study may be explained by another force, adaptation. As stated above, the results appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis because the Nubian and Egyptian groups are biologically similar. However, this resemblance may be indicative of a common adaptation to a similar geographic location, rather than gene flow. Carlson and Van Gerven (1979) stated this idea in reference to common adaptations of Nubian, Paleolithic, and aboriginal Australian populations. Additionally, Carlson (1976), Prowse and Lovell (1995), Van Gerven (1982), and Van Gerven et al., 1977 D. Van Gerven, G. Armelagos and A. Rohr, Continuity and change in cranial morphology of three Nubian archaeological populations, Man 2 (1977), pp. 270–277. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (9)Van Gerven et al. (1977) also recognized this form of natural selection as a mechanism for in situ biological change; Egypt and Nubia have similar terrain and climate. Because of the similarity between and the overlapping of the two territories that would require similar adaptations to the environment, common adaptation cannot be discounted.
Sample size may have unduly influenced the results in this analysis. Four of the samples were represented by less than 30 individuals, while several of the remaining samples numbered close to 200 individuals. Moreover, only a small number of groups (six) from each population were examined in this study. Observations of more and larger population samples may produce different findings.
In summation, a portion of the in situ hypothesis in Nubians is supported in this paper, namely homogeneity. Gene flow appears likely between the Egyptians and Nubians, although common adaptations to a similar environment may have also been a factor in their cranial similarities. This study does not rule out the possibility that in situ biological evolution occurred at other times not represented by the samples in this analysis. Further research should incorporate more populations the Nubians were in contact with, to further shed light on Nubian population structure. Additionally, Konigsberg's (1990) spatial–temporal isolation model should be applied to the dataset here to further explicate the results.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
For-chrisakes..will ya all stop responding to the green robot who is stuck on stupid?And the Nut?..don't post in their threads and don't respond to them positively or negatively when they post in yours unless you want to help them to further down-grade and distroy this site...And Heru I am calling you out bro..a little more discipline please.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Hopefully, you're not referring to me as Heru. Otherwise, wass poppin' ?
Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Hey brother-man, just saying you were the 1st to respond to the Green Robot aka Nut-job spam/bait thread...followed by Mike,responding to you responding to him which intern caused his spam-bait to say on top of the board as Mindover pointed out...I know you can't wait to whoop his azz if you caught up to him in real life,but this is the internet...fools get to getway with alotta s!hit.
I like Heru... ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru seems to have all the letters of the Alphabeth... Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
OK I am throwing in the towel... Djehuti just did his thing with the Green Robot...for the life of me I can't see why he wan't to help tear down something that he himself help to make great..."SIGH".. motti-nie.
Now to be joined with the Lion and Bob 01. again "sigh"..
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
^ Green robot?? What are you talking about???...
By the way, even if we don't respons it will be a long while before the trolls incessant threads sink to the bottom.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Dirk the Green Robot stuck on stupid and his alter-ego Afro-nut.
DJ
quote:if we don't respons it will be a long while before the trolls incessant threads sink to the bottom.
That's only if we keep helping them..DJ look you being a vet have some influence, if folks click on and the see a post by you naturally they want to respond and join in negatively or positively..and that keeps the spam-bait threads extra life.let him spam-bait all he want's when no respond he will find life elsewhere. It can be done just alittle desipline.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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Unfortunately, Dirt a.k.a. Abozo of a hundred aliases is a veteran troll that has plagued this forum for years now. Getting rid of such an old disease is going to be tough no matter how we try to ignore it. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yes but I have seen him leave for long spells..only to return when new posters comes or everyone forgets about him. Like roach infestations he is hard to get rid of but you can't tear down your house just to do it.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Brada-Anansi you will soon find out that nobody tells the little arrogant Philipino what to do! In fact his attitude is one of "you Blacks should be glad I'm arguing in favor of a black Egypt!"
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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Unfortunately, Dirt a.k.a. Abozo of a hundred aliases is a veteran troll that has plagued this forum for years now. Getting rid of such an old disease is going to be tough no matter how we try to ignore it.
No, it's pretty much an easy task...simply STOP responding in his threads plain and simple, you'll be surprised how you won't see his threads anymore!
If he wants to venture into the numerous threads already posted, with his own actual scholarly rebuttals, he is more than welcome (hopefully it's in the threads intended for such).
It gives the laymen individuals with a miscomprehended view of African history a chance to learn the real history of Africa through scholarly debate from both sides of the coin.
But if he's simply trolling (all he does), posting individual columnists thoughts and opinions on the subject (most of the time which have absolutely nothing to do with Egypt or African history, but more to do with his own self esteem) in multiple threads that he himself creates while suckering some of you into responding....
...or even if he does respond in the threads "we" post without presenting actual scientific or historic substance, then hey, leave him be, let the unintellectual cowardly clown rot, he'll get the hint!!
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Hey brother-man, just saying you were the 1st to respond to the Green Robot aka Nut-job spam/bait thread...followed by Mike,responding to you responding to him which intern caused his spam-bait to say on top of the board as Mindover pointed out...I know you can't wait to whoop his azz if you caught up to him in real life,but this is the internet...fools get to getway with alotta s!hit.
I like Heru... ArtistFormerlyKnownAsHeru seems to have all the letters of the Alphabeth...
I did catch up wit that fool in real life, but he had Guards around him. And he would only get cheeky to me from a distance, coward ass cracker Posts: 3423 | From: the jungle - when y'all stop playing games, call me. | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Its too late. Most visitors to this forum have made up their minds that you're all a bunch fools, idiots, and nutcases.
Who else would engage in the same repeated circular arguements day in, day out?
This guy has been doing this since April and you imbecilles just now realize that you should not respond to him. You guys are flat out fucking dumb. There is no other way to explain it.
I take that back, there is also another reason which I will get to later.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Agreed sayz I...some post as different people somtimes in the same thread...
Yea I know, Kayanyah a.k.a Afronut a.k.a Afronutslayer a.k.a Jimmy Walker a.k.a Dirk8 a.k.a Phillipe Rushton.....
It's sad to see how individuals on this board are still responding to the same troll (with multiple names) as if they're responding to different people.
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MindoverMatter718: [QB] If he wants to venture into the numerous threads already posted, with his own actual scholarly rebuttals, he is more than welcome (hopefully it's in the threads intended for such).
It gives the laymen individuals with a miscomprehended view of African history a chance to learn the real history of Africa through scholarly debate from both sides of the coin.
But if he's simply trolling (all he does), posting individual columnists thoughts and opinions on the subject (most of the time which have absolutely nothing to do with Egypt or African history, but more to do with his own self esteem) in multiple threads that he himself creates while suckering some of you into responding....
...or even if he does respond in the threads "we" post without presenting actual scientific or historic substance, then hey, leave him be, let the unintellectual cowardly clown rot, he'll get the hint!!
Posts: 6572 | From: N.Y.C....Capital of the World | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Bogle wrote: --------------------------- Brada-Anansi you will soon find out that nobody tells the little arrogant Philipino what to do! In fact his attitude is one of "you Blacks should be glad I'm arguing in favor of a black Egypt!" ---------------------------
And that is another reason. You have these non-African fruitcakes who need to believe that people they pereive as "lowly Africans" need their sorry ass protection.
Again understand that it goes in parcel with their liberal egos which need to have people who they believe rank low on "their" deranged racial hierarchy needing their help.
At the same time you can see how they propagate their own racism against Africans with their posts. And when someone corrects them on it, you have all seen how angry they become.
Posts: 3085 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Bogle: Brada-Anansi you will soon find out that nobody tells the little arrogant Philipino what to do! In fact his attitude is one of "you Blacks should be glad I'm arguing in favor of a black Egypt!"
Posts: 156 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Mar 2010
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