posted
If the kernal of fact behind mythology is worth anything, long before any Arabs settled in lower Iraq there was already Belus Nimrod.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
... there are indeed blacks or darker skinned Iraqis who are indigenous to this area. But again, Sumer and Elam were the first "civilizations" in this area and they were both in the South and both had very large numbers of black people.
These places today still have relatively high numbers of blacks. Yes there were many blacks brought into Iraq during the time of Al Jahiz, but at the same token a lot of the Arabs who settled Iraq were ALSO blacks from Arabia anyway.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: osirion - To clarify the skeletal issue:
If 1,000 years from now, someone dug-up this mans skeleton, how would they know that he was Black?
That man is Cushitic and would likely match other people of East African origin. You would likely think he was Egyptian or Nubian but there is more than just the skull in terms of skeletal remains.
My point was that the term "Black head" means little to me. You need multiple points of evidence. Without sufficient evidence I would stick with the modern population as being the same as that of ancient times. This is quite a bit different than what we see at Jericho in Palestine.
There isn't any evidence of these individuals being black skinned? How about the fact that the indigenous Neolithic population present in the region maintained an "exaggerated" (i.e. "West") African form? That development would suggest that the population at hand were at least tropical adapted peoples. The cold adapted counterparts with pale skin developed in North Asia, possibly well beyond Central Asia since Europeans are native to Northern Europe.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: osirion - To clarify the skeletal issue:
If 1,000 years from now, someone dug-up this mans skeleton, how would they know that he was Black?
That man is Cushitic and would likely match other people of East African origin. You would likely think he was Egyptian or Nubian but there is more than just the skull in terms of skeletal remains.
My point was that the term "Black head" means little to me. You need multiple points of evidence. Without sufficient evidence I would stick with the modern population as being the same as that of ancient times. This is quite a bit different than what we see at Jericho in Palestine.
There isn't any evidence of these individuals being black skinned? How about the fact that the indigenous Neolithic population present in the region maintained an "exaggerated" (i.e. "West") African form? That development would suggest that the population at hand were at least tropical adapted peoples. The cold adapted counterparts with pale skin developed in North Asia, possibly well beyond Central Asia since Europeans are native to Northern Europe.
Bob_01 - you are not to be blamed for this, because for years posters have banded the term around without any thought as to what it really means. osirion alluded to it above, but he has another agenda, so I don't count that.
I am speaking about the term "TROPICAL ADAPTED."
How many times have you heard someone say "tropical adapted" to mean Black people? A lot right?
But are all Black people tall and thin? Of course not.
Are all White people stout? Of course not.
So where did this bogus term come from?
Actually it's a perfectly good term that came into being to describe the anatomical differences between "NEANDERTHALS" who lived during the ice age in West Eurasia and had very thick body form;
And the First modern human immigrants to Eurasia who brought the taller leaner African Physique.
But the geniuses on the board took the term as meaning a differentiation between Blacks and Whites.
But since Whites are nothing more than African Albinos who gained a fixed degree of melanin, and are in fact, just Africans like everyone else.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TROPICALLY ADAPTED HUMAN!!
BECAUSE ALLLLL HUMANS ARE TROPICALLY ADAPTED!!
I know that you will find this hard to believe, after so many years of hearing that nonsense; so try this link. It's simple stuff, but it's all that is available, because aside from the people here at ES, the rest of the world doesn't use the term.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: But here's the rub, it wasn't only citizens of ancient Sudan who were called either Kushites or Aethiopians. We find either term applied to non-Sudanis in an expanse as wide as what's now Morocco to what's now India.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ The Kingdom of Kush or Cush was an ancient African state centered on the confluences of the Blue Nile, White Nile and River Atbara in what is now the Republic of Sudan. It was one of the earliest civilizations to develop in the Nile River Valley. Having also been referred to as Nubia, and as "Ethiopia" in ancient Greek and Greco-Roman records, the Kushites left their mark on various aspects of the ancient world and their legacy is still readily discernible from the various archaeological field sites scattered throughout modern Sudan.
In each case there is evidence supporting a presence of Cushitic people even in India. Evidence supported by actual archaeological evidence as well as historical accounts such as Egyptian military colonies, etc.
Cushitic Palestine seems to be a clear fact but Cushitic Dravidians? I am not saying its not plausible I am only wondering where's the connection.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:The aboriginal Arabs are a Black people of Cushitic ancestry. However, the Sumerians being Black is based on what skeletal finds?
As promised I'd fined the Source,like I said it's an old one but this is where they were headed.
1926 and 1928. Field Museum and Oxford University conducted extentive join excavations in northern Sumer. at the digs conclusion they stated that.
The earliest historical crania (hyperdolichocephalic) are from Jamdet Nasr. 18 miles northeast of Kish and those from the Y trenches at Kish...The forehead is retreating ,the brow-ridges are always prominent,and the cheek bones rather wide.The nose is broad,in some cases inclining to extreme platyrrhine,alhough the face has seldom survived.This is the type described by Surgi,Giuffrida and Fleure and named the "Euroafrican Type.
In an additional publication on the excavations at Kish,TK Penniman list three distinct crainial groups:
First,there is the Eurafrican..In ancient times,the type was found in Mesopotamia and Egypt,and may be compared with the Combe Capelle skull.It is possibly identical to men who lived in the high desert west of the Nile in Paleaolithic times,and is of the type seen in the familiar portrait of statues of Rameses II...secondly the Mediterranean type,whose varients occur all the way from Java through India and Mesopotamia,and on both sides of the Mediterranean.These people are of midum stature,with complexion and hair of the Eurafrican,to which they are allied,dark eyes,and oval faces.They have small i'll-filled dilichocephalic skulls.with brow ridges poorly developed or absent,bulging occuiputs,orbits usually horizonal ellipese,broad noses,rather feable jaws,and slight sinewy bodies.In ancient times their distrubition is was the same as today.
Thirdly,there is the Armenoid type,whose relatives are found all over the Eurasitic plateau and mountains from the Persian gulf and Asia Minor. African Presence In Early Asia.
Like I said an old study so alot of out dated race termology..but hay!!that was the 1920ts
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Nice work Brada-Anansi, but you ought to know that when someone asks you to prove the obvious, then they have a different agenda.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Nice work Brada-Anansi, but you ought to know that when someone asks you to prove the obvious, then they have a different agenda.
This is pretty obvious. The Sumerians couldn't have been a pale-skinned people, because such people are not native to the Middle East. There is no evidence behind that assumption.
Eurocentrists need to back up their claims and I'm certain with the methodology present, we'd see it pointing towards a Black Asiatic population. The initial population were tropically adapted, and produced an offspring with West Africans that ultimately looked "West African". The development of aquiline traits makes sense, but pale skin suddenly appearing (i.e. fourth global junction) is just Eurocentric fantasy.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Originally posted by Mike111: Nice work Brada-Anansi, but you ought to know that when someone asks you to prove the obvious, then they have a different agenda.
Well Mike, agenda or not a question was posed and I am certain lurkers are wondnering..if indeed there was any description of skeletal remains,so the question and the answer is bigger than all of us.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
^My comment was not a criticism for providing information, as you correctly said, that function is bigger than we. Rather, it was merely forewarning that there would likely be an equally asinine follow-up.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Nice work Brada-Anansi, but you ought to know that when someone asks you to prove the obvious, then they have a different agenda.
This is pretty obvious. The Sumerians couldn't have been a pale-skinned people, because such people are not native to the Middle East. There is no evidence behind that assumption.
Eurocentrists need to back up their claims and I'm certain with the methodology present, we'd see it pointing towards a Black Asiatic population. The initial population were tropically adapted, and produced an offspring with West Africans that ultimately looked "West African". The development of aquiline traits makes sense, but pale skin suddenly appearing (i.e. fourth global junction) is just Eurocentric fantasy.
Produced offspring with West Africans???? What are you talking about? There were no West Africans in Mesopotamia. They were simply African derived populations that have inhabited these areas which are part of the ancient route for early humans migrating out of Africa into the region of Mesopotamia and the Iranian plateau, Central/South Asia and India.
posted
These "old" books are very interesting because :
- The iconographic evidence; - Their scholarship;
I read Samuel Kramer, Jean Bottéro ,Rawlinson, Sayce (who gave the translation ADAMU, with Rawlinson and Smith), Budge (Babylonian history and life), and more recently Richard James Fisher.
In Richard James Fisher you can find the cuneiform name "ADAMU" explained in his book : "Historical genesis : From Adam to Abraham" 2008.
Many Assyrian kings bore the name "ADAMU", which is very common among the west africans specially within the Haussas. Some scholars like Flora Shaw presented important facts when she says that Haussas scriptures revealed that they originated from assyria ( Tropical dependency : P 94 et 95);
You can't find everything on the net. Sometimes you should check books as well.
George Smith has showed that they were 2 races in chaldea :
"The Chaldean account of Genesis, containing the description of the creation, the fall of man, the deluge, the tower of Babel, the times of the patriarchs, and Nimrod; Babylonian fables, and legends of the gods; from the cuneiform inscriptions (1876)"
He says on page 86 : " It has already been pointed out by Sir Henry Rawlinson that the babylonians recognized two principal races : The Adamu, or Dark race, and the Sarku, or light race… It appears incidentally from the fragments of inscriprions that it was the race of Adam, or the dark race, which was believed to have fallen… "
I always cross "old" books with "new" ones.
-------------------- The wise man knows he knows nothing, the fool thinks he knows all Posts: 70 | From: Paris / France | Registered: Dec 2009
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Of course it is full of the white Europeans own racial dogma, but the mythology is there.
And another reference:
quote: In Sumerian and Babylonian mythology, Adamu was the first man. The gods tricked Adamu and his descendants out of immortality - not wanting man to be immortal like the gods - by telling him that the magic food of eternal life was poisonous to him, and as such Adamu didn't eat it and so didn't become immortal.
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Nice work Brada-Anansi, but you ought to know that when someone asks you to prove the obvious, then they have a different agenda.
This is pretty obvious. The Sumerians couldn't have been a pale-skinned people, because such people are not native to the Middle East. There is no evidence behind that assumption.
Eurocentrists need to back up their claims and I'm certain with the methodology present, we'd see it pointing towards a Black Asiatic population. The initial population were tropically adapted, and produced an offspring with West Africans that ultimately looked "West African". The development of aquiline traits makes sense, but pale skin suddenly appearing (i.e. fourth global junction) is just Eurocentric fantasy.
Produced offspring with West Africans???? What are you talking about? There were no West Africans in Mesopotamia. They were simply African derived populations that have inhabited these areas which are part of the ancient route for early humans migrating out of Africa into the region of Mesopotamia and the Iranian plateau, Central/South Asia and India.
Doug_M, that isn't my point. I am suggesting that the hybrid Afro-Asiatic clustered most closely to the Congolese population in Brace's study. That is, even more closer to that population than East Africans.
Those Blacks are not West African-perse. After all most West Africans dispersed into that region recently and the region is obviously not monolithic either. If we were to follow Y-DNA haplogroups, we'd have to argue that much of Southern Eygypt's population are "West African".
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Nehesy and Doug M - not meaning to belabor the point, but weren't you a little suspicious when the White man inserted a "Supposed" White man into Sumerian history when there is absolutely no evidence that White people were around at the time?
And weren't you a little suspicious with the similarities between Adam and Adamu?
And even after I told you that there was no such Sumerian word as Adamu, you still persist. Okay, you can't say that I didn't try.
BTW - The Sumerian creation myth, the oldest known, was found on a fragmentary clay tablet known as the "Eridu Genesis", datable to ca. the 18th century BC. It also includes a flood myth. You will find no Adamu there.
Babylonian
The Babylonian creation myth is recounted in the "Epic of Creation" also known as the Enűma Elish. The Mesopotamian "Epic of Creation" dates to the late second millennium B.C.E. You will find no Adamu there either.
The only evidence of an Adamu that I could find, was in the Assyrian king list - and he was likely a mythical figure.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:The aboriginal Arabs are a Black people of Cushitic ancestry. However, the Sumerians being Black is based on what skeletal finds?
As promised I'd fined the Source,like I said it's an old one but this is where they were headed.
1926 and 1928. Field Museum and Oxford University conducted extentive join excavations in northern Sumer. at the digs conclusion they stated that.
The earliest historical crania (hyperdolichocephalic) are from Jamdet Nasr. 18 miles northeast of Kish and those from the Y trenches at Kish...The forehead is retreating ,the brow-ridges are always prominent,and the cheek bones rather wide.The nose is broad,in some cases inclining to extreme platyrrhine,alhough the face has seldom survived.This is the type described by Surgi,Giuffrida and Fleure and named the "Euroafrican Type.
In an additional publication on the excavations at Kish,TK Penniman list three distinct crainial groups:
First,there is the Eurafrican..In ancient times,the type was found in Mesopotamia and Egypt,and may be compared with the Combe Capelle skull.It is possibly identical to men who lived in the high desert west of the Nile in Paleaolithic times,and is of the type seen in the familiar portrait of statues of Rameses II...secondly the Mediterranean type,whose varients occur all the way from Java through India and Mesopotamia,and on both sides of the Mediterranean.These people are of midum stature,with complexion and hair of the Eurafrican,to which they are allied,dark eyes,and oval faces.They have small i'll-filled dilichocephalic skulls.with brow ridges poorly developed or absent,bulging occuiputs,orbits usually horizonal ellipese,broad noses,rather feable jaws,and slight sinewy bodies.In ancient times their distrubition is was the same as today.
Thirdly,there is the Armenoid type,whose relatives are found all over the Eurasitic plateau and mountains from the Persian gulf and Asia Minor. African Presence In Early Asia.
Like I said an old study so alot of out dated race termology..but hay!!that was the 1920ts
Yes, a bit out of date.
Lets forget skeletal then and move on to something else like pottery or so other type of technology.
We can easily connect Northwest Africa both genetically and in terms of techno-complex to Northern Kenya and the origins of the Cushitic people. In Summeria what type of technology came out of East Africa in the Mid-Holocene period that makes this connections with Black African people?
Or again, are you really try to simply argue for facial form similarities? Australians look like Black Africans too.
Personally I would focus more on Africa rather than these excursions into speculations.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Well the thread header was... The origin of the term Black headed people. the thread creator was claiming Black should not be used to discribed them even though they discribed themselves as such, were they migrants from the Nile valley? or other parts of Africa? some here would say yes others would say no,But from my understanding they were connected to both but may have originally came from somewhere on the Indian sub-continent,but had relations with Megan and Meluhha (Kemet and Kush)that perked my interest..along with the bibical connection through Nimrod.
Osirion
quote:Or again, are you really try to simply argue for facial form similarities? Australians look like Black Africans too. Personally I would focus more on Africa rather than these excursions into speculations.
Yes Iam arguing for facial form similarities..for the purpose of this thread that they were blacks and self-discribed themself as such.
One can focus on Africa like I myself like to do, but I find of interest to find out who her military and commericial partners were...and did they influence each other. From Sumer and from a later date from Susa Specifications, courtesy of the Metropolitan Museum: Egyptianizing figures on either side of a tree with a winged disk, 8th–7th century B.C Neo-Assyrian Mesopotamia, Nimrud (ancient Kalhu) Ivory; H. 4.88 in. (12.4 cm) Rogers Fund, 1962 (62.269.3 Thank to the explorer's blog exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/10/ancient... the above is just the winged disc motif alone which carried religious significance So in a very real sense influence was being carried out from a very early era.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Well the thread header was... The origin of the term Black headed people. the thread creator was claiming Black should not be used to discribed them even though they discribed themselves as such, were they migrants from the Nile valley? or other parts of Africa? some here would say yes others would say no,But from my understanding they were connected to both but may have originally came from somewhere on the Indian sub-continent,but had relations with Megan and Meluhha (Kemet and Kush)that perked my interest..along with the bibical connection through Nimrod.
Osirion
quote:Or again, are you really try to simply argue for facial form similarities? Australians look like Black Africans too. Personally I would focus more on Africa rather than these excursions into speculations.
Yes Iam arguing for facial form similarities..for the purpose of this thread that they were blacks and self-discribed themself as such.
One can focus on Africa like I myself like to do, but I find of interest to find out who her military and commericial partners were...and did they influence each other. From Sumer and from a later date from Susa Specifications, courtesy of the Metropolitan Museum: Egyptianizing figures on either side of a tree with a winged disk, 8th–7th century B.C Neo-Assyrian Mesopotamia, Nimrud (ancient Kalhu) Ivory; H. 4.88 in. (12.4 cm) Rogers Fund, 1962 (62.269.3 Thank to the explorer's blog exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2008/10/ancient... the above is just the winged disc motif alone which carried religious significance So in a very real sense influence was being carried out from a very early era.
I have never spent anytime studying Black Asiatics . I am Afrocentric and don't really think much about non-African Black people. I think that is more of DougM thing. He is more of a Pan-Black-centric person.
I think once you get into Pan-Black topic it some how gets associated with Afro-centric people like me in a negative way. Even to the point that I get smeared as being White-centric or some such none-sense. I just simply haven't seen anything that connects Summeria to Kush. I see Kush as the origin of Afro-Asiatic culture which is beyond the borders of Africa. However, was Summeria within that sphere? Summeria appears to be clearly Asiatic that it is easily recognizable to see the origin of the modern Asiatic culture in Summerian artifacts.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Ruins of the Late Hittite city state is located about 50 km west of Gaziantep. The original name of the city is not known. The site was first discovered in 1883 and The ruins of a palace structure covers a large area. The orhostats and statues date from 8th century BCE.
(Of course it has been proven that there was never a people or Empire called Hittite, rather it was the Hatti, but Whites persist).
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: You knuckle head; They are ALL related!!!
This is Anatolia (Turkey) Note the winged disk.
Sakçagözü
Ruins of the Late Hittite city state is located about 50 km west of Gaziantep. The original name of the city is not known. The site was first discovered in 1883 and The ruins of a palace structure covers a large area. The orhostats and statues date from 8th century BCE.
(Of course it has been proven that there was never a people or Empire called Hittite, rather it was the Hatti, but Whites persist).
Again, basic subjective artwork is the only evidence you provide. Weak.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
osirion - When you ask a question, I assume that there is a lurker with the same question in mind, So I answer it.
For some reason you seem to think that I give a sh1t whither or not you agree. I don't, but if you ask another half-way intelligent question, then I will answer it.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Osirion I am suprised you though that all we do is supply pretty pictures how can you fail to grasped the significance of the above...being that you are a veteran E/S poster? the winged disked motif has deep religious significance to those people Winged Solar Disk This is a form that the god Horus Behudety (Horus of Edfu) takes in his battles with Seth. The god Thoth used his magic to turn Horus into a sun-disk with splendid outstretched wings. The goddesses Nekhbet and Uazet in the form of uraeus snakes joined him at his side.
Shen A loop of rope that has no beginning and no end, it symbolized eternity. The sun disk is often depicted in the center of it. The shen also seems to be a symbol of protection. It is often seen being clutched by deities in bird form, Horus the falcon, Mut the vulture. Hovering over Pharaohs head with their wings outstretched in a gesture of protection. The word shen comes from the word "shenu" which means "encircle," and in its elongated form became the cartouche which surrounded the king's name.
The vulture Nekhbet who is the protector of Upper Kemet Don't you get it these rulers whether Sumerians or Babaylonians Persians etc wanted to be like Uppper Kemetian Rulers,they are saying we want to be thought of as being devine and powerful as those guys,dispite having our own traditions ...they set the standard.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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